Pick Your Starters -- Defense, 3-4 Edition

if TYSON THOMPSON ran 500 yds in HS and is fast, etc etc. then why do we get BARBER? i mean JJ and thompson seem enough, then you got barber and A TRAIN. or is it just to see who comes out the best at the end of camp? why wasnt thompson drafted higher-despite having discipline problems??

Well we drafted Barber before we signed Tompson as an UFA. Parcells, says although the kid has speed, he’s not fundamentaly sound. One thing is he runs to upright, and that if he continued that in the NFL he’s going to get hit real hard.

this was something i found on foxsports.com its interesting…..

Dan:
I am a faithful reader of Sporting News. I believe your grading of the Cowboys’ draft was a little low. You are a little too enamored with Shawne Merriman. Why are you so hard on Demarcus Ware?
— Dan, Leola, Pa.

Dan:
A lot of e-mailers share your sentiments. Really I liked the Cowboys’ draft. They improved themselves as much as almost any team. Maybe I was a little harsh on them, if you can call a B+ harsh. But Merriman, the player they passed, is superior to Ware, the player they took.

It isn’t that I don’t like Ware. There are two areas I rate Merriman considerably better: instincts and physical play. Merriman was one of the most violent players in the draft. Ware is more of a finesse, speed rusher. Their styles are not similar, even though they play the same position. It will be interesting to watch Ware develop with the Cowboys and Merriman develop with the Chargers.

i think they want tyson more as a return specialist and you can’t have too many good backs. last year we didnt have enough so im not complaining that we have 4 good ones

Ware supposedly looked exactly like the player that they were hoping for (albeit mini-camp..shorts etc) Spears and Burnett are the physical forces needed. Ware is a speed rusher who hopefully will produce QB pressures and/or SACKS. As we all know by now, Ware also reported to camp and is already learning the system. Whereas Merriman, who visited several teams @ 280 lbs……well…he probably STILL weighs 280…and might be a long long time before he reports since he recently hired the Poston Bros.

this is mike im changin my name to this cause theres already a mike

i like your speculation on the defense, except you dont have canty in there which im guessing becasue of his injury. which he could rotate anywhere on the front, to me.

ware will do fine. if he reminds bp of LT than we are in great shape.

does anyone here have info on Ratliff or seen him play cause the coaches seem pretty impressed with him.

Rafael

Whenever Canty is able to play, where does he fit in your depth chart? Note that Parcells has said he is already familiar with the system, in that the terminology is the same or nearly the same as that used at UVA. Mentally, he’s good to go. Assuming he lives up to the hype, how do you see him being utilized when he becomes physically ready?

Am I an idiot, or did this article just say that Jay Ratliff, a tackle, is going to play DE????

Cobb

I believe that was the report on the Cowboys website this week. He’s a converted TE, and played both DE & DT positions at Auburn.

Cobb:

You can find in the league several DT’s playing DE, an example? Warren Sapp in Oakland. He was a DT through all his career, but he can play DE in a 3-4 scheme because he’s a power rusher, although there’s not much more power left………. Glover would be an interesting DE in a 3-4, but considering that he can play nose, he’s better in there……….

Rafael:

The lineup looks good, just a couple of thoughts, Canty recovered moves Ratliff to 3rd stringer, he’s bigger and, in film, meaner; O’Neal is going to rush whoever lines up at mikeback, don’t be surprised to see James being cut if he doesn’t start responding to the way the ball is going (he doesn’t recognize routes that well and is slow in run support).

Rafael,

I also remember hearing or reading that BP was working Burnett at OLB in the minicamp. I remember him saying that the speed that Burnett has, plus his coverage skills and his abitlity to get to the ball would make for a perfect complement opposite Ware in a 3-4 scheme. This would also allow guys like O’Neil, Singleton (probably better suited to play ILB in a 3-4), and James to compete for the job next to Nguyen at ILB.
Since Burnett could also play ILB (though I haven’t actually heard that from BP yet, I might’ve missed him), movin guys like Thornton around and switching him with Burnett in 3rd down situations to increase the speed/pass rushing ability on the field—a pretty good sounding group of guys.

Of course, this is all based upon the abiltiy of all of our young/new players to pick up the system and play the way BP wants them to. Each time we do this, I get even more excited for next season to roll around. We’re startin somethin good here—youth, skill, speed, and we’ve got the best in the business at building solid teams for years to come, BP.

cobb he was talking 3-4 not a 4-3. 4-3 he prolly does play tackle.

Starstruck,

Chandus nailed it. Canty moves Ratliff to third stringer or makes him the swing DE, perhaps a backup at LE. Remember, he was a speed tackle in the Jimmie Jones mold. Think of how Dallas utilized Jones in the early ’90s, as a rush DT on passing downs. Just one more 3-4 option to get to the QB.

Cobb,

You saw correctly. Ratliff, who is a light 4-3 DT at 280, is much better suited to playing DE in a 3-4.

David-CT,

Burnett was playing OLB. He was playing the weakside in the 4-3, which is Bradie James’ new spot now that Dexter Coakley is a Ram. James better bone up on his reads, because Burnett by all accounts is probably the rookie most ready to adapt to the pro game.

Want to play a 4-3?

Great.

Want to play a 3-4?

Fine.

Just show me CHAOS, HAVOC, and DESTRUCTION.

Let me see McNabb look like Jeff Garcia.

Let me see the Cowboys walk on the field knowing the only way they get beat is if they beat themselves.

I don’t think we’re too far away from that.

Who cares how they line up, it’s how the play finishes that counts.

your right.

i wanna see teams SCARED of us and think twice about going through the middle of the D line or that of the secondary. i wanna see teams think of us as being this young overly powered DESTRUCTION team that takes not crap at all.

only thing is….how do we get these guys to play like that?

Ryan,

How do we get these guys to play like that?

Two Words……….two of the finest words in all of sports.

Bill Parcells!!!!

Big Jim,

I hear you. I don’t care which scheme they use as long as I get to see McNabb on his ass. A lot. I don’t ever want to have to watch him or anybody else run away from our guys for 15 seconds again. I want it simple, the QB drops back….and then gets up from the ground with Ware, Spears, Burnett, Canty, Glover, Ferguson, Ratliff, Williams, or any other defender standing over him celebrating!

Ryan,

As for Thompson, I’m not really sure why he wasn’t drafted, but I can only imagine his off the field problems must have been pretty bad to scare off everybody in the league. With his speed, Parcells can at least afford to bring him in and see what he’s made of. If he turns out to be all that he’s cracked up to be, we WILL see him in a Cowboys uniform. If not, no real investment has been made, so Parcells will have no buyers remorse with him. I’m pulling for the kid, but don’t be surprised to see him in another position, like maybe WR. They are still interested in a burner there, even though Parcells says that Crayton, Morgan, and Glenn are fast, but none of them has Thompson’s speed.

I totally agree, as long as they are winning who cares what formatioin they use. I’ll also be looking for Tyson to switch over to WR because of his speed and catching ability.

i really like the fect of giving the offense alot of headaches, not by pressure but by different schemes. i think thats how the steelrs and the pats deffense are so good. they do have some real good players but when your ooffense has to see alot of different fronts then you dont know where the blitz is coming from it makes qb’s hurry make bad decisions when there lil clock in there head is screwed up because they have no idea where the hits gonna be coming from.

Rafael

I now see that you did address Chris Canty in your piece, sorry for not reading more closely. I must have skimmed right over it, which is strange since I was looking for it.

The key word with defense (and running backs) is indeed D-E-P-T-H. With the wealth of creative football minds employed at the Ranch, weâ€â"¢re likely to see various sets of players rotating on and off the field. I canâ€â"¢t wait to see!
 
Tyson Thompson’s challenge appears to be cognitive when Bill Parcells says, “He does have ability if he can figure out what to do.” Three years out of high school, he spends just one year in a four-year college before declaring for the draft. No one had seen enough of him on the field to warrant a draft pick. Iâ€â"¢d guess if his high school football accomplishments had not occurred in Irving, TX, he would not be getting a look by the Cowboys either.

I hope it works out though! Sounds like he has the instincts and raw talent but if heâ€â"¢s academically challenged, heâ€â"¢ll have to work harder than a lot of other people to pick up the NFL game—the system, the terminology, the defensive reads. They donâ€â"¢t prefer college just for the physical development. He could be initially overwhelmed but heâ€â"¢ll have some time to absorb it all and maybe he’ll have a better grasp of football academics. It wonâ€â"¢t take BP long to figure him out.

Starting 3-4 will be LE- Spears, NT- Ferguson, RE- Ellis
OLB’s- Ware & Burnett, ILB’s- Nguyen, James

Then lets talk depth, DL-Glover, Canty, Ratliff, Coleman, Carson (who i think u forgot to mention) LB- Singelton, Shanle, O’neil, Thorton, Ogbogu (who could be a good pash rushing LB out of 3-4)

and a fresh Nickel D with pass rush that has DE’s- Ware & Ellis, DT- Glover & Spears(whose big enough to play DT). Then Singelton & Nguyen as cover LB, and the DB’s of Newman, Henry, Glenn, Williams & Hunter (moving to Saftey spot in the nickel)

So many options to chose from, LOOK OUT!

Why are the cowboys using Kalen Thorton as LOLB, can’t Bradie James play LOLB?

The thing I like about Bill Parcells is if you have the talent you will get some playing time. I don’t think Parcells cares about who starts and who doesn’t he just wants to win the game. The kind of players he likes are the players that check their attitude at the door for the team. I think who starts will depend on what the other teams offense will do. You show enough different defensive fronts the other team will have no choice but just try to play their own game to their own strengths. San Diego will have a VERY hard time trying to figure out what we are going to do. See what I mean.

i think bradie james is a lil slower maybe thats the problem.

i didnt see canty in there as well i love the defensive front

Starstruck,

It wasn’t in the original piece. Your comment made me revise it, since you were on target. I had simply overlooked him.

Zach,

Thornton already played a lot of LOLB in the Dallas 3-4 last year. James has had trouble getting consistent playing time anywhere.

Hey guys, ive been reading this blog for about two months now and i think its great.I can tell most of you are very knowlegeable about cowboy’s football.I like your article about the depth, but its not just the depth as much as the competition.Do we really want Jul. Jones to come back this year unchallenged?Will he be a better force knowing he has to perform or there is someone who will step up and take his spot.Same goes for the D. line this year, these young guys, and even the veterans know they better bring their A game if they want to get on the field.And it never hurts to have three corners who are capable of starting, let the best man win, the competition is what will drive this team this year.No one has a sure place on the field this year, they all have to prove themselfs year after year, and this year the competition is the best i have seen in some time in Big D. I for one can not wait for the season to start. Go Cowboy’s

can people see my post?

Rafael,

I thought that BP had Burnett at OLB in the 3-4, in addition to WLB in the 4-3. I might’ve been mistaken, but I thought that BP had him outside when they were practicing the 3-4 scheme. When we do play 4-3 however, I’m excited to see Burnett in at WLB — seems to be a perfect fit for the weakside position (see Derrick Brooks).

I LOVE THIS PIECE I SAW ON DALLAS.COM FROM SPEARS…

One of four Cowboys draft picks to also captain their college team, Spears said it’s not too early to tackle a leadership role with the Cowboys as well.

“That’s what we were talking about the other day – Demarcus, Kevin (Burnett) and myself,” Spears said. "We know we have a chance to be sort of the future here on defense. We already have great players here with guys like Greg Ellis, La’Roi Glover, Roy Williams, (Terence) Newman. But we want to come in here and not play like rookies. If we can step in right away and not miss a beat, then we’ll have a chance to be even better next year.

David,

He might have played Burnett and Ware at the OLB positions in the rookie camp. When the vets report, I think Burnett will get a look inside as well. Just a hunch on my part, but I think they want the best four. Now, that could be James and Nguyen inside and Ware and Burnett outside. We’ll see.

yehti, yes.

Can anyone think of a good nickname for our new defense?It would be great if we could start one……kinda freaks the other teams out and helps our guys play as a force!

AndyZ

Die-Nas-D! But Doomsday still works for me too.

For anyone interested in the cowboys NFLE allocations, nfleurope.com reports:

Keylon Kincade had 15 carries for 42 yards (2.8 avg.) and 2 TDs with 1 catch for 6 yards, in a 23-17 win. Hmmm…like the nose for the goal line-both TDs were short yardage (1 & 3), don’t like the average.

Also, SS Dantzler had 8 KO returns for 145 yards (18.1 avg.) but zero tackles while LB Kevin DeRonde had 8 combined tackles (5/3) in a 48-10 loss.

Well, guys, about the nicknames, there’s a saying in my town, don’t eat the chicken if you haven’t killed it………… start the nickname-mania at the middle of the season, or when McNabb looks like Garcia, as a fan in a previous post said. Let’s hope that by then we can start calling the D Doomsday or Tsunami or Pyroclastic D or whatever…………

We could call our defense, D-Day! Or some derviative there of. It’s kind of a throw back to the dooms day, but its not. Reminicent of our onslaught on Normandy!

Rafael,

I’m with you on having Burnett on the inside. Seems like most teams like to have a guy with some brains on the inside, and with Ware being the rushing talent, having a brain like Burnett on the inside would be nice so he can learn to lead the defense and get everyone in the right place. Sort of like Ray Lewis.

Chandus,

Did you mean to say profolactic d?

I think the Dallas defense is still and always will be DOOMSDAY, no matter the era.

I also don’t care who starts, because with the depth(finally!) that we have in the front seven, there are so many interchangeable players there and they will be rotated in and out as the game progresses and the situations present themselves. One thing for sure, barring injuries and Canty being healthy for the start of camp or soon thereafter, we will not have a tired defense like we had last year. Depth is a good thing.

Our beefed up running attack and O-Line will also see to it that our Doomsday does not spend too much time on the field. Remember, it’s all about ball control! Being able to run the ball, will allow our passing game to be more effective. Oh, whose gonna cover Witten and Campbell in our two TE set? This upcoming season is starting to look pretty good! I can’t wait!

I jus too excited to start the season, with this great D

Hey guys, if you want to check out my positional reviews, check out my site at http://cowboys.mostvaluablenetwork.com. I really like how you set yours up Rafael.

Shon,

I agree with your position on competition ar the RB spot, but I think the drafting of Barber and the addition of the A-Train will push Julius to keep working hard to maintain the #1 spot. Don’t get me wrong, Julius earned that starting position, and I have no doubt that he will earn it again.

Also, let’s not forget about this Thompson kid. He’s a burner, and that can’t be ignored, so I think Julius will do whatever he needs to do to keep his starting job. Plus, I truly believe that if Jones had been healthy all season, he would have destroyed all NFL rookies, including Rothlisberger (Yeah, I said it) and with an improved offensive line, this kid has got a shot at doing something special.

Having said that, I do think that Parcells has something different in mind for him this year. He does not want to treat Jones like his name is Earl Campbell. I don’t want to see that either, so I think Julius will get some help this year, but he will still be the man when the smoke clears.

Will,

I checked out the positional review, and for the most part, I loved it. You made the comment that “Without discussion, this is the most improved defense in the NFL,” and I couldn’t agree with you more, but I would challenge you on one issue.

You made the comment that “The linebacker position is the weakest on the roster right now, so thereâ€â"¢s nowhere to go from here but up.” I’m just not ready to agree with that, given our situation at safety.

A lot of noise has been made about the defensive line, and rightfully so. On paper, they should have opposing QBs quivering like 6 year old girls. If all turns out the way we all hope it will, we could be looking at an all time defensive line. By the way, I loved that comment on the Jurassic 5, but here is my point. I think with the addition of Burnett, we have more upside at the LB position than we do at safety, and in the 3-4, we’d have Ware out there at LB as well. I haven’t seen any significant movement at safety other than drafting Justin Beriault in the 6th round.

Okay, I’m finishing my rant now, but I want to remind you that your own rating for the LB position was a “push” while your rating at safety was “negative”.

By the way Will, I forgot to mention that, in my opinion, you absolutely dead on in your assessment of the offense. I don’t disagree with a single thing you said. Perfect commentary from where I’m sitting.

RB looks like it went from one of our weakest spots last year to one of our strongest this year.

We have 2 unproven Rookies who will compete to make the team, Barber and Thompson.

We have 2 proven NFL players in Julius Jones and the A Train.

BP also brought in Polite as an FB………and we kept Darius Barnes.

Look for Bill to look for one of these backs to be his 3rd Down Guy…….my choice Jones……..gives you that Draw Play Risk and showed good hands last year.

Now you got A Train, Barber or Thompson to give us carries in addition to Jones who touched it way to much in those eight games……..as far as out of the backfield. I think Julius gets 25 touches a game……..if he has a few receptions maybe 30………..but then we got Barber, Thomas and a couple of other suspects to throw out there.

Last year as soon as Julius Jones went down we were stuck with Eddie, Richie and Lee. While Lee showed flashes carrying the ball against Minnesota……….he was in BPs doghouse……..and now is off the team. Which, was hard to take as a fan last year………..but in the long run I understand it……….Coaching has to be consistent and BP knows if he lets Lee get away with not blocking……….he will pay for it later………maybe with a QB that gets killed in the pocket when a LB goes by Lee……..so I understand that.

Barber gives us another youung guy back there…………Thomas has shown he can carry it and is also relatively young. I think BP is going to like the style of Thomas who can be a true in between the tackles Tailback.

We no longer have Emmit Smith, who looking back on his longevity and fast healing from week to week even after 200+ yard games and being the go to guy GOSH how amazing was that guy………..add in all the Playoff and SuperBowl MILES on his legs……..and he just kept going and going………there is no telling how long it will be before the league sees another guy like that………or the Cowboys for that matter………..although Curtis Martin still looks good……….it is rare for the over 30 RB to be as good as the youth coming in.

Let say we lose a RB this year to injury……..we still got options on the team. The biggest loss will be the leadership Richie Anderson gave and his 3rd down back ability. I was impressed with how well Richie played for us as a HB, after playing FB so long. I hope Emmit in Dallas gives JJ some pointers on work ethic and routine as far as longevity. Whatever he did sure worked!!!!

Rob2,

Without disscussion? Don’t you think when talking about the most improved D in the NFL, that the Vikings should at LEAST be disscussed? It’s ok to be a homer bro, but at least open your eyes to what the rest of the league is doing.

Hey fellas i know this is off the topic but ive been wondering what jersey numbers have aaron glenn and anthony thomas chosen. i know that glenn wont get 31 as that is our best player on D. and thomas i see that we already have a number 35 so i was wondering, maybe glenn would take a 20 or 26 that would look pretty good on him and as for the A train he was number 32 in michigan and i see that our last 32 is now gone so maybe that would be a great pick for him. if anyone else has any ideas then i would like to hear them.

Jon,

BP said he was willing to keep 4 RB’s, and you forgot Bickerstaff in your running attack analysis. I think Barber is in and Bickerstaff will compete against Thompson for the last spot. Look for Thompson to get it as he suposedly has a ridiculous amount of speed. He should simply be a return specialist(finally we have one).

Okay Josh, with discussion, but I stand firm in the belief that we improved more than they did on defense. Time will tell.

Matt,

Yeah Bickerstaff is coming back from injury and Kincade is also in NFLE.

But we no longer have Eddie George as our primary backup behind Julius Jones. I think BP will find a way to keep Thompson on the roster if he can return.

Rafael,

I agree that BP is goin to have the best 4 LBs on the field (3-4). I also agree that Burnett would make a great ILB in the 3-4, but in my opinion, these two statements seem to contradict eachother. Who will play OLB opposite Ware? I don’t think Thornton is a starter on this squad; he adds great depth, but I think we can get a better LB in next to Nguyen if we slide Burnett outside. I think having Singleton (I like him at ILB in a 3-4) on the field with Ware, Nguyen and Burnett is, at least at the beginning of the season, an improvement over Thornton. But this goes back to the rotation that has been mentioned with respect to the linemen. I think, unlike Will, that the LB spot will be deep enough that they can rotate players (like Thornton, and possibly James and others) in to keep everyone fresh and effective.

Of course, it’s just as possible that Burnett plays ILB and Thornton starts ouside, but if I were coach (scary prospect), and my current estimations are in fact correct, I would start Ware and Burnett outside and Nguyen and Singleton inside.

But then again, I don’t even have a website.

Rafael,

I agree that BP is goin to have the best 4 LBs on the field (3-4). I
also agree that Burnett would make a great ILB in the 3-4, but in my
opinion, these two statements seem to contradict each other. Who will
play OLB opposite Ware? I don’t think Thornton is a starter on this
squad; he adds great depth, but I think we can get a better LB in next
to Nguyen if we slide Burnett outside. I think having Singleton (I
like him at ILB in a 3-4) on the field with Ware, Nguyen and Burnett
is, at least at the beginning of the season, an improvement over
Thornton. But this goes back to the rotation that has been mentioned
with respect to the linemen. I think, unlike Will, that the LB spot
will be deep enough that they can rotate players (like Thornton, and
possibly James and others) in to keep everyone fresh and effective.

Of course, it’s just as possible that Burnett plays ILB and Thornton
starts outside, but if I were coach (scary prospect), and my current
estimations are in fact correct, I would start Ware and Burnett
outside and Nguyen and Singleton inside.

But then again, I don’t even have a website.

Dat is going to be so much better with the addition of Burnett and Ware……….and you got Singleton coming back……..and James can decide if he wants to be a PRO or go home……..Thornton with good size and showed promise last year……..

I think a lot of how often Ware is on the field as an OLB will also depend on how often we are running a 4-3 with him as a Pass Rushing DE……..he could get a lot of breathers……….or could be the most played rookie of the bunch…….hard to say……..

I think the flexibility and depth are sweet, while we are trying to figure out who will play and start and what defense we will use……..and how often Aaron Glen or others will be on the field………..so are the Offensive Coordinators……..

There is a great article on ESPN by Pasquerelli(i think) about how Dallas did not try to rebuild brick by brick, but just said the heck with it and built a WHOLE NEW HOUSE with this Draft. The more we run the 3-4 the more that becomes true……..but either way you are going to see at least 3 and possibly 6 rookies playing key roles in our new and improved Defense………Canty, Burnett, Ratliff, and of course Ware and Spears……….Bierault will probably see some time even if he does not start……….it has been a long time since we have had some big plugs like Spears, Ferguson, along with the guys that are already on this club.

I think Zimmer is going to love IT!!!!

Don’t forget leonardo carson. they did not resign him to sit on the bench.

I see Glover starting at end. He will be more stout against the run. And i think he can beat most right tackles one on one. look for interceptions to go up. And with roy at the line of scrimmage someone’s gonna get hurt!

i want to know why in the world that dallas would switch to the 3-4 when in the past years they won 3 superbowls with the 4-3. this stuff is crazy.
anyway i like that we got some new young faces but BP really needs to get off getting all these old people on the team. i mean think about it – Drew Bledsoe, anthony thomas, eddie george, vinny testeverde, aaron glenn, the list goes on. we need to get a younger team if we are going to succeed. PEACE OUT.

Matt,

They won 5 SBs with the 4-3. I think they’ll use both 4-3 and 3-4 this year depending on the situation. Regardless, having the depth will be a nice change of pace and our D will be a lot better this year! Go Cowboys!

Jon,

Jon,

Kincade might be comming back from the NFLE but he will not make the roster unless he can beat out Thompson who by looks of it will be on the team because BP made it clear he liked the kid.

Matt Wilson,

That has to be the dumbest thing I have ever read. The league is changing and the 3-4 allows for more playmakers to be on the field. Secondly stop whinning about veteran players, Glenn is a good Nickel Corner, Eddie George was a bust, but Vinny played decent for an old guy who was brought in to play backup. As for Thomas, since when is being a 4 year vet being old. The guy can still play. For Bledsoe sure he’s not mobile but with the O-line being steady(hopefully) this season he should be able to throw like he did when he was younger, if he has time not many are better than Bledsoe.

you guys are right and i am sorry, but i still would like to see someone stand out this year like a T.O. or a Randy Moss. i think that with a little work that Keyshawn can do just that. also i believe that Terry Glenn has potential to be very good considering his head turning speed. Julius Jones in my opinion is going to be the next big thing in Dallas but i may be speaking too soon. anyway i do think Bledsoe can be good when he has time but watching what he was doing with the Bills makes me second guess that. Well i think Dallas can pull off one of their best seasons if everything just goes right. PEACE OUT!

laroi as a backup cmon be serious this “man” has been to how many consecutive pro bowls? dont be foolish . its understandable that big Jason Fergusen gets the nod at nose but are you really willing to sit a perenial pro bowler like laroi for an unproven rookie like spears? dont think so i think they move him to end and everyone rotates at de except Fergusen. But heres another question what about mr. underarmor eric ogbogu you dont expect him to see any time at olb. And Bradie lets not forget he was the guy battling Coakley for olb last year and i believe was part of the reason they let Coakley go. so everyone should wake up from this dreamland of great rookies and realize we already have proven talent that has payed there dues and earned the right to start. But this is just the 3-4. 4-3 is a whole different story.