A Second Helping of K.C.

On the subject of receivers, realistically, we’ve got one, maybe two positions available at best. I figure Key, Terry, and Quincy are a lock for the first 3, with and Crayton and Copper most likely getting the next two. With that, how would Mr. Joyner rank the rest of the receivers in the Dallas camp? Who does he think has the best shot at the final spot? Are there any guys out there who may legitimately challenge Crayton and Copper?

Rob2, don’t write Merritt off that list yet, at least from the eyes of people that saw some action on the mini camps, one of the best receivers in there was him, he needs to duplicate that with pads and if he does he could leave out one of the guys you already mentioned.

Not writing him off all. He might very well be the 6th guy. I’ve read a lot about a few guys, and the buzz seems to be simlilar on all of them. The coaches seem to be high on Rector, Crowder, Harrell, and Merritt. Clearly, some of these guys are practice squad guys at best. My question is, which, if any, of these guys will be the last guy. I’m curious to learn from anyone who might know, who ranks where with these guys.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think there will be any more than one spot available. I think two spots is a stretch, so with four guys competing for that one spot, there are going to be at least 3 disappointed guys who worked their @sses off. Crayton and/or Copper could be on that list, but I doubt that. I just can’t tell who goes where at this point. Maybe no one knows yet.

Hey speaking of rankings, Mickey Spags has made his list of the Top 20 Cowboys. The one problem I had with his list was Greg Ellis was ranked 9th. Not to take anything away from the defensive players Mickey ranked higher (Glover, Roy Williams, nor Newman) but Ellis is the best player on the Cowboys’ defense. Ellis is a coaches’ player, and does all of “the little things”. He was 2nd in the league in pass deflections by defensive linemen, only behind Jason Taylor. Deflecting passes and disrupting passing lanes may not be as glorious as a sack, but plenty of times a deflection yields a similar results to a sack, which stops an opponents drive on 3rd down or creates 2nd down and 3rd down and long plays for your defense. Amongst D-linemen, Ellis ranked 8th in solo tackles, and 13th overall. The art of knocking down a pass, disturbing passing lanes, and making solo tackles is often overlooked. That’s why one demensional players like Simeon Rice make the Pro Bowl each year. “The little things” can be just as important as a sack when trying to end an opponents’ drive. In reality, some times more important. As in stopping the “game breaking” play by containing the offense. Playing DE, being the contain guy is sometimes Ellis’ assignment, leaving him little room for error as the last line of defense to the outside. Therefore, making a solo tackle or a batting down a ball is all he can do, and exactly what the coaching staff is asking him to do. My opinion of Ellis is pretty darn simple: I’ll take him on my team every day of the week and twice on Sunday!! Another example of just how good he is … even though pressuring the QB is not his greatest strength, he had 9 sacks (ranking him 22nd in the NFL). Besides Witten, no one played better than Ellis. And no Cowboy was more consistant!

Eric,

You’re telling me if you could select one guy from the Cowboys Defense to start a team of your own, you’d take a DE that can’t run better than a 5.0 second 40, who has never had a 10 sack season over a 3rd year shutdown CB or lumber laying game changing 4th year SS? I can’t agree with you no matter if Ellis has his head up the coaches butt or not.

There’s a great article on dallascowboys.com about Crowder. I think that we actually have a bunch of young receivers with a lot of promise. I don’t know who will step up in camp, but I think it will make for a really exciting camp!

With all the talk about the ’Boys not making any high profile FA pickups at WR, I believe the reason for that is Parcells and Jones feel that we already have the young talent aboard, who will develop into “The Go-To Guy,” or at least be good enough to pick up the slack when KJ and/or TG go down with injuries. Seriously, I think our “Go-To Guy” is already on the team. His name is Jason Witten!

Regardless, we will certainly find out when camp starts, if any of the young guys will shine. I can’t wait.

It seems that it would be quite a challenge for Mr. Joyner to determine who is most likely to make the bottom wide reciever roster spots. He is using game film from last year for his observations and as a group these wide recievers prospects did not not played that many downs last year.

Crayton and Copper got a little game time last year, but Merritt and Crowder did not play last year so there is not any film to look at.

When it comes to selecting a 6th wide out assuming the team carries six wide outs special teams considerations will play a much bigger role then how they have preformed in the past as a wide out. More likely then not if Merritt or Crowder are to make the roster they are going to have to beat out either Crayton or Copper because the Cowboys will go heavy at TE. If they carry a 4th halfback they will not carry a 6th wide out.

Josh,

If you are asking me to rank the Cowboy players, Ellis is #1 on their defense. We always here about potential in every sport. Whether it be baseball’s “can’t miss” prospects or the NFL’s "franchise corner (or quarterback or just about every position), they miss! Sure Newman and Roy have the potential to be great, but Greg Ellis is the best player on the defense until someone shows otherwise. …… and Josh here is the difference: Turn on ESPN after the game and you will see Roy light up a couple WRs, but they’ll hardly ever show the bad angle he took in coverage resulting in a 15+ yard play. He hasn’t been consistant in all aspects of his position, neither has Newman. But yeah I’ll bite … they do have more potential than Ellis.

Just look at Ellis stats!! 9 sacks and 9 passes defended. That means he was involved in breaking up 18 passing plays by Cowboys’ opponents. Only 6 defensive linemen created more of a disturbance on offensive passing attacks. Want their names? Dwight Freeny (16,3), Bert Berry (14.5, 4), Patrick Kernny (13,8 + 1 INT), Kevin Williams (12,8 + 1 INT), Julius Peppers (11,9 + 2 INTs), and Jason Taylor (9.5,10 + 1 INT). Pretty elite company!! A who is who when it comes to the top pass rushers in the league, and Ellis is right there with these guys, at least when it comes to pass plays broken up. He smart and solid, and does the things that the layman fan just wouldn’t recognize by watching highlights on Sportscenter.

Has anyone seen Gil Brandt’s recent NFC preview on NFL.com (6/29)? He picks the Cowboys to make the playoffs as a wild card with the Vikings and Iggles earning first-round byes. Additionally, he predicts that Mr. Julius Jones will be the NFC’s leading rusher while LB-sized QB Daunte Culpepper will be the league’s leading passer and MVP. That wouldn’t be so bad after the Vinny-led 6-10 meltdown last year. Here’s his take on the 2005 Cowboys:

"The Cowboys will be one of the oldest teams in the league this season. Larry Allen, Drew Bledsoe, Terry Glenn, La’Roi Glover, Keyshawn Johnson and Marco Rivera are each expected to be key contributors and all are in their 30s. But all except Glover have been in the Super Bowl at some point during their career. The team had an outstanding draft and did a great job of signing unrestricted free agents, including defensive tackle Jason Ferguson and cornerback Anthony Henry, that should help the team. Look for the Cowboys to switch from the 4-3 defense to the 3-4 and play the 3-4 formation 70 percent of the time. Keeping Glenn healthy will be a big key for this team. The Cowboys make four trips to the West Coast, while the farthest the Eagles will go west is Arizona. "

Gil Brandt was Vice President and Director of Player Personnel of the Dallas Cowboys for nearly 30 years (1960 – 1989) so he knows the Boys pretty well. What do you all think of this assessment?

I don’t know about everyone else, but I am really pulling for Crowder to earn the last WR spot. I don’t believe anyone else has the potential he has. He is converting from safety and just needs time to learn the nuances of the WR position. I’m worried that by putting him on the practice squad, we risk losing him to another team if a WR goes down somewhere, and then we’ve lost one of our most promising young players.

Sabia,

I too am pulling for Crowder to make the team. According to dallascowboys.com, he’s caught a lot of passes this offseason from Henson and has been working on his route running. We’ll have to wait and see though. Training Camp is just around the corner……..

RParr:

He’s known all around the league for his scouting knowledge, not much by his prognosticator knowledge, but I guess that analysis is kind of good but a little expected.

The rip to the league was obvious, how is it possible that Dallas travels 4 times to the West to face San Diego, Oakland and Seattle (SF isn’t worth the mention) and Philly receives in their home the toughest opps…… well, Arizona is supposed to be an upgraded team, but come on!

I’m also pulling for Crowder. This guy has pull talent and has the speed to consistently stretch the field and get behind the cornerbacks and safetys. He reminds me of Golden Richardson (not quite as polished) in that he has blazing speed off the ball. I think it’s great he’s catching all those balls, however, he need to latch on to T. Glenn and K. Johnson to learn route and separation techniques. I understand these are things he will work all in training camp, ut, there is no time like the present.

As far as the schdule. We play what we have in front of us. Looking back at previous schdules over the years it hasn’t always been friendly to the Cowboys. Becoming battle harden now will pay off later and let Philly get that false sense of security. In such much as these early games are (far) away, it may prove less of a distraction for our younger players. Providing the veterans do there jobs and help the team keep it’s focus. Lastly, I’m looking at the schedule and I don’t see any Juggernaut.

What about Roscoe Crosby as a supp draft pickup? Is he worth a second or third round pick? I’d hate to give up a first, unless he is truly worth it. It would be great to add our future star receiver now rather than wait til next year. Have you heard whether there is any interest from the Cowboys for Crosby?

Eric,

You make a pretty good argument, but if Ellis is #1 on our defense, then why did we draft 3 DE (not including Ware) for one spot?

Eric,

Compared to other DL around the league, Ellis was 18th in sacks, 17th in tackles, and 48th in forced fumbles.

Terance Newman compared to other defensive backs in the league, was 17th in interceptions, 14 in tackles, and 15th in passes defended.

I did not look at Roy Williams numbers for the sake of this comparison, because I think it would be unfair as he was forced to play out of position.

But what the numbers do show, that when compared to thier peers at their positions while not considerably better Newman did produce better numbers. Being younger than Ellis this gives him a higher value to our team than Ellis.

If you had a choice to go into the season without either Newman or Ellis, you are telling me we would have an easier time replacing Newman than we would Ellis? That question in and of itself should tell you who is more important to our defense.

Ellis, Newman, Ellis, Newman. I think that they are both Key contrubitors and both need stellar seasons for the cowboys to have a good year and get to the playoffs. Also when you think of it they feed off one another ill explain… Ellis gets a good rush then QBs must make quick decisions throw bad passes Newman looks good… Ellis gets a bad rush possibly out of position the QB gets to stand back in the pocket forever a make Newman look silly… Newman on the other hand does a great job covering his man then the QB is forced to stand in the pocket a little longer Ellis gets a sack or a hit on the QB now Ellis looks good… Newman having a bad day and the man he is covering is taking him to school then Ellis has a bad game because the QB can make all the reads… so Ellis having a good game will mean Newman having a good game and vise versa. But its bigger then that its more of a line vs secondary.Tho I feel have a good line is more important. Why? having a good rush from your line means additional players dont have to come in to pick up for a lack of pressure. You dont have to send in linebackers safetys or corner backs in after the the QB. So you dont have to get fancy with your D fence to create pressure you get to have more poeple dropping back playing coverage and play a more basic more fundamentally sound d fence (and we all know how much BP stresses the fundamentals). and again when this happens this means less QB completions more picks for the D and so on. So when you sit back and look at the larger picture if you cant function as a team losses start rolling in. We have all seen what happens when a D has no rush CBs look silly no matter how good they are they cant keep up with the receiver for ever ( see philly game where Mcfag ran around for ever)

Josh,

T-New was tied with a host of guys with a whole 4 INTs. Not too impressive! Especially considering how many times he was beat last season. A few LBs had more INTs than Newman, and a few more had an equal total. Oh, and having a lot of tackles playing corner is normally a bad thing. How many TDs or big plays did Newman let up last season? > Where is that on his stat sheet? You just can’t calculate it! …. Simply being on the field can yield 4 INTs in any particular season. Go watch the games and Newman was beat bad at times. …. Don’t get it wrong either, I am the first person to say he had to cover for far too long for his game to be effective, but Ellis was the biggest positive contributor last season. INTs are just paper stats, and even those aren’t too impressive. Really how well did he play last year? ….. Compare Ellis’ overall play to all other DEs and he is in the top 5-10 at his position easily.

Sorry my last post should read, “INTs are sometimes just paper stats”.

Eric,

You hit the nail on the head about Newman having to cover his man far too long to get a rush on the QB. You know that was Ellis in pursuit of McNabb while McNabb lolly gagged for 45 seconds behind the line of scrimmage before coming up with a third and long first down. The guy is slooooooooooooooooooooooooooow. You may like his work ethic, but he certainly isn’t the best thing we have on defense.

Also you avoided my question on who was more irreplacable.

Josh:

Your slow comment is way out of line, mainly because you can’t compare the speed of a 280 pounder to those 230 pounds of a scrambler QB, way out of line!

BTW, a good LOT at times makes Ellis dissapear, that’s why I’m up for the idea of changing him to the right side and not playing him for as much plays as he played in previous years, that’s not healthy!

BTW 2, the best player on D is Glover, nothing against Ellis or Newman or Roy, that guy has been the core of the D in the last 3 years.

Chandus,

Ellis can’t run a 5.0 40 and my slow comment is out of line? Did you see McNabb getting peppered in the backfield during the SB?

Josh,

Who on the Patriots is so much faster than Ellis? How have they fared? If I remember correctly, Erik Williams would dominate Reggie White, yet White was one of the best players for Green Bay during their Championship run. Some DEs switch sides to avoid bad match ups too. The bottom line is Ellis’ PLAY puts him in the top 5-10 DEs in the league. No matter his speed!! Can he be blocked? Sure he can. Go take a look at the Cowboys game at Giants Stadium against the Giants two years ago …. Dan Cambell blocked Michael Strahan head to head, and did a terrific job. Does that mean Strahan isn’t good, because the Cowboys had a good game plan against him? Using a TE!! Most great DEs have their days were they get blocked well and end up frusterated, yielding no sacks. Heck if a player had a sack a game, he would be a superstar! So they all have their days. …. Ellis is a good pass rusher, but he does all the other things well too, which makes him a top DE. His consistancy and effort made him the Cowboys best defender last season. Like I said before, until someone actually brings a better game onto the field, Ellis is the Cowboys best defensive player.

Ok, Josh, granted, Ellis is no Dwight Freeney, nor Patrick Kerney, nor Jason Taylor, nor Bertrand Berry, nor Simeon Rice, nor Robert Mathis. He’s a KGB, Darren Howard, Charles Grant, John Abraham or James Hall, which are slow players that base their game more on overpowering the OT than speed, I think you’re a bit confused in there….

BTW, I see Ellis as one of the best in the overpowering category, basically because he’s a beast in run support.

And, McNabb was peppered not by the DL’s the Pats were sending after him, those were LB’s, the Pats played half the snaps on a 2-5 D# and 3/4’s in 3-4 and 4-3. You’re not supposedly saying that a DE has to play at a LB speed, right?

McNabb getting peppered by LB who are rushing out of a 3-4 scheme. Blitzing LB come in a lot faster then a down lineman not because they are so much faster but because they get a running start before the line of scrimmage.

Over the last few years the most critical / valuable player in the Cowboy defense was Woodson. He was always in the right spot and made a number of huge plays. Watching games in 2000-2004 it seemed that was in large part because the defensive scheme called for the MLB and the SS to make a majority of the tackles. Well it became obvious once he was hurt that no one else on the team could step into his role on short notice.

Regarding who is the current best defender debate:

Of all the players on the Dallas defense Newman would command the most money in free agency. That says more about his age and position then it does him being the most valuable. Newman may have a great year this year, but based on last years performance he is not the most valuable player on the defense.

Ellis is ranked in the top 10 DE by every scout rating service. He is a solid consistent pro who can pass rush and does a decent job in the running game too. Likewise Glover is a top 10 DT. More importantly he is the player on the DL who receives the majority of the double teams on pass plays. Along the DL he is the more valuable player because a good defensive line requires a player who commands a double team and Ellis is not and never was that player.

Roy Williams is a top 5 safeties in the league and while he was exposed in deep coverage last year he still makes huge plays. Teams scheme their game plan to deal with him and wide outs fear him. Five players lost multiple games due to a run in with him last year and that affects the mindset of every wide out that plays them. People talk about fear of crossing the middle….well Roy Williams creates real fear and doubt in even the largest toughest wideouts in the game.

Even with his limitations in covering slot wideouts, he can cover TE and RB out of the back field. He can blitz, and he can close running lanes. Those are the job duties of a SS and he does them all at a pro-bowl level. The fact that he lacks the versatility to be a great free safety does take away from the fact that Roy is the biggest impact player this defense has.

Chandus,

First off Abraham is a speed guy. But your point is a valid one.

Some times the speed guys get all the glory, because they often put up more sacks. My point is they are sometimes one demensional. Take for example, a few years back, the Jets played the Colts in the AFC Wildcard playoff game. New York came with some quick short passing plays. It was as if the Jets were teasing the Colts speed guys into being anxious. The first time the Colts were in a real pass rushing situation, the Jets called a screen to Freeney’s side. Richie Anderson took the pass 40-50 yards for the TD. Freeney pinned back his ears and came full throttle, but overplayed the QB and left his contain assignment. After getting Freeney and his teammates winded by the quick passes and screens, the Jets then burried the run right at them, especially on Freeney’s side. The Jets won, the score was something like 40-0. What is my point? Well yeah sure Freeney gets more sacks, but a guy like Ellis would read the screen 3 out of 4 times. Secondly, you won’t be able to wear him down so easily. …… Here is what it comes down to: If you had a speedy CB that hawked the ball, and on ocassion would get a pick, maybe even sometimes get a TD, but other times overpersued letting up huge plays. Then you had a corner who kept the play in front of him, disrupted the rythym of the QB, and didn’t let up a lot of big plays. Who are you going to play? When I think about it, against subpar QBs the speedy ball hawk will probably thrive. But against a well coached team, a playoff team if you will, he will get abused. Much like a homer or nothing guy in baseball. Do you want a guy who hits a lot of homer runs with a bunch of strikeouts? Or the guy who makes good contact 90% of the time? Well again, good pitchers abuse the homer or nothing guy. I like the fact that Ellis is an all around DE. Now don’t get me wrong there are great pass rushers that are well rounded, and are more physically gifted than Ellis (Julius Peppers, Jason Taylor, etc.), but Ellis is only a notch below these elite players, and his play shows that.

Trey,

Nice points, especially on Glover.

Roy now is a different story. His rookie year and second year led most of us to believe that he would be a force to be reckoned with for a while. Last year he did not play great. You noted the pass coverage skills, but he also took some really bad angles last year on the run, ended up in more yards for the opposition. Maybe too, he didn’t blitz as much last season as he had before, but I remember #31 laying it on some QBs in the two years previous. (cough! cough!) Including a huge sack against the much hated Eagles. Maybe it was because, as a lot of people think, not having Woody along side him, but his play definately took a turn for the bad. … That is to say that Roy may be the best player, but Ellis had a better year. Like I stated twice already, until someone else (maybe Roy) brings a better game to the table, you have to say Ellis is the #1 player on defense. … Logic! Why is Witten our #1 guy on offense? Because he played better than anyone else last season! That is why Ellis should be #1 on our D!

O.K, WE KNOW ONE THING, AND THATS,THE BOYS HAVE SOME LOYAL FANS. IT’S NICE TO READ ABOUT GOOD PLAYERS ON OUR TEAM, AND HAVE SUCH GOOD DEBATES ON THE SUBJECT. NOW AS FOR MY OPINION, I THINK THAT A COMBINATION OF PLAYERS DESERVE A LEGITIMATE MENTION. AND THATS DAT ,ROY,GREG,GLOVER,AND NEWMAN AND WITH THE PICK=UPS OF HENRY AND OUR ROOKIES, I’M HOPING TO HAVE A LITTER OF GOOD PLAYERS, THAN ONE GREAT ONE. NEVER MIND WHO’S RANKED ON ANY ONE’S LIST. JUST AS LONG AS THEY PLAY AS A UNIT WITH ONLY ONE GOAL IN MIND, AND THATS TO WIN THE BIG DANCE. AND WITH THAT WILL COME NOTORIETY. FROM ONE DIE HARD COWBOY FAN TO ANOTHER, ADIOS.

Keith,

There WAS a lot of interest in Roscoe Crosby until he screwed up his NFL workout. He cramped up due to the heat and was unable to finish the drills. I’ve read in a few places about Dallas’ interest in Crosby, but in light of his most recent performance (or lack thereof), I don’t think the Cowboys are willing to part with any more than a 4th or 5th round choice to get him. There are four or five other teams who will probably take him before then.

Eric,

All I can say is that those who select pro bowlers don’t agree with you on Ellis, so don’t you think you need to lay off the Cowboy Koolaid a bit?

Josh,

Mike Piazza was the top vote getter for the All-Star balloting this year. So I guess he is the best catcher in the Majors. NOT!! …. Some reasoning Josh!

Eric,

You are comparing apples and oranges. Baseball players selected to the all star game are voted in by the fans only. In football 1/3 of the vote is coaches, 1/3 are the players themseleves, and 1/3 to the fan. And while some popularity around the league is a factor, it isn’t quite the factor that it is in Baseball. If Ellis were in the upper eshchelon of DEs I’d think he would have made at least one Probowl.

Josh,

I never said he was the upper tier DE, deserving of a Pro Bowl. Your reasoning that the voters for the Pro Bowl always get it right is rediculous. DEs in the NFC, you have Peppers, Berry, and Grant had the best years. Grant didn’t even play. If you say Glover got in, well he started over Kevin Williams, who had a much better season than Glover. You can’t reason who is the better player from Pro Bowl ballots. … The arguement never was is Ellis an elite DE. It was: which Cowboy defender had the best season last year?

Eric,

The point of Micks article was not who had the best season last year, he was ranking players based on his percieved vlue to the team.

Right Josh. If their was no turn over in the NFL and each team came into July having the same team they ended the season with last year, who would be ranked the highest? ….. Uh maybe New England!! Sure you will have “experts” choosing Indianapolis again, but New England proved that they were #1 on the field. So did Ellis!! Until someone plays better than Ellis, he deserves to rated as the Cowboys best defender.