Fix that Line

Rafael-Great analysis. I am hopeful that Peterman is developing. How good would he have to be for BP to sit LA or MR. As far as Peterman not being active for the games, it is a lot easier to cover a guard spot in an emergency with the back-up center or tackle. I have absolutely nothing to base these thoughts on other than what he did before his injury(and the fact that he is still on the team). If BP thought there was a better prospect anywhere in the league he would be here now. Look at Ron Stone and how long was he on the team when he couldn’t get on the field. He has had a respectable career post Cowboys.

Also, our defense gets a lot better when our O-line improves.

I would love to hear whether or not offensive coaches think Peterman is closer to a worthwhile project or a total draft bust. I also would throw Jacob Rogers’ name into the mix. The guy had apparently been doing quite well until his injuries in training camp. Yes, he decided to be more cautious with his career than Parcells would’ve liked by having surgery to end this season, but since when is Parcells a player’s best advice-giver long term. I still think he made a huge mistake sending Peterman back onto the field in pre-season 2004 after he was already injured, only to see his knee shattered. Suck it up, tough guy, is not always the best policy.

I remember people saying Peterman had a better chance of playing his rookie year than Rogers. Now he can’t get into the game. Pre-camp he was going to start so Allen could move to RT. But it is only this first year, If Rogers was here he would be starting so maybe Peterman will be better next year. Larry sucked his first year I remember he replaced Eric.

aw,

Peterman was ahead of Rogers. But he tore three ligaments in his knee. You don’t rush back from an injury like that, if you ever do.

Raf
My point was that this is this first year and maybe he will do something next year because a lot of linemen suck in there first year.

aw,

True enough. I certainly hope so, but can the team bank on it?

I’ll take the extreme view, and claim that I can fix the O line with ZERO moves. Columbo said that he felt healthy for the first time in years. Tucker and Petitti never have been un-healthy, and Tucker could replace Allen, if necessary, when Flozell returns. Gurode played OK after his non-call Sunday. Peterman, Proctor, and Trujillo are unknowns.
I can’t comment on Sparano, because I don’t know enough about him.

…sorry, that should have been Tarullo(Matthew). And I forgot Shannon Snell.

Raf
no but that is why he is here.

Lee, I can’t agree with you there. Even with Flozell returning, Tucker replacing Allen on the line means you are starting Petiti and Tucker, and any line that is happening on is one that I would not consider fixed. Plus I would consider resigning Gurode as one move, not zero.

I like Raf’s analysis (obviously), but I think we could do it in three. I think one center would do it, ideally a vet— Mawae would be great, but even a reliable second-tierer to work in with AJ would be nice. Then the other two are the fullback and the guard. The guard’s more a back-up for Allen; my hope is that with a solid line around him, Rivera would stop crapping the bed so badly.

I’m very hopeful about Columbo, also; in my dream world he becomes a rock on that line for 12-14 games next year.

Raf, Aw,

together at last……

Yeah I know it isn’t reasonable to pencil the cowboys in for more tha14 -17 points, but This one has all the earmarks of highscoring game for Dallas. KC is coming off two big wins against old rivals – NE and Denver – looking ahead to the Saturday Nationally Televised Saturday Showdown with the Giants.

Dallas on the other hand has taken a full week of BParcells berating and dressing down. As pro ball players they can’t be happy with their coach saying that they got ‘physically beat up’.

Really, I’m just grasping at straws. I just want it to be true.

Tim:
I guess you’ve got me there with Gurode’s re-signing as 1 move. To keep it at 0, I’ll have to let Gurode go.
I guess I can’t swap Gurode for Rivera, because Rivera has a 2 year deal?

the best move the cowboys could make is by hiring one of the great oline coaches. no salary cap, and almost guaranteed improved performance.

Some good thoughts, but I have to disagree on a couple. First, I think the T spot is the most vital. Remember what Parcels said about the DL for the last 2 years, it’s about throwing as many options at the problem as you can. T has been the big issue, especially on the Rt side. Adams should make a good comeback, but I’m not confident that we can get someting out of 3 guys who have done nothing this year. So, I would Draft a T in the 1st or 2nd.

I think G is ok, though. Rivera’s problem is the surgery, he just hasn’t been able to get the leverage that he used to have, and I chalk that us to lack of muscle. He should be alright after a off-season to regain his strength. Allen is still going strong. Plus, we still have Peterman, who should be a more than capable G.

I like the idea of getting Mawae at C.

I think he HAVE to get a FB to run BPs offense. He rely’s on the running game sooo much. A blocking TE won’t give you the blocking you need on the runs up the gut that BP loves. The other thing to remember is the fact the OL is so bad. A good FB can cover some of that up since he’s in the backfield, whereas a TE has man responsibilities.

So, for me it’s 3 moves.

Two moves two combo players 1. Nick Mangold center / guard ohio state, and David Thomas TE/FB Texas. I read a profile that said he reminded of Darell Johnson and he’s not listed in any of the profiles or mocks….This can be done with a 2nd for Mangold and a 5th round pick,at this point, leaving your first for a Top free saftey/ corner like Huff, and your third for LB/DE or WR. Alot of good WR’s will slide to the third this year. Pick up a vetran center and OLB in FA. Let Gurode go I think he has had 3 years, with Parcells, to show something. Hope Coloumbo works out, Petite comes back better with a year of experience, Flo comes back with the same attitude he had after receiving his huge contract 3 years ago and were fixed…still dont understand why parcells said he has already fixed it though we will see on sunday.

I haven’t seen any projections that put David Thomas in the backfield. He’s listed as an H-back most of the time. What’s your source, TM?

No telling. For all we know, Pettiti, Peterman, and Columbo may all rock next year, Adams may ocme back as good as he was two years ago, and Rivera may be back together again and play like he did before the injury. Heck, Polite may even turn into a player with another year’s experience. Parcells would have a better idea about all of that than any of us do, and will know even better as the draft approaches.

At the least, it requires a new Center. Gurode needs to be replaced, so that is one move. If I were a betting man, I would think Polite might have a hard time keeping his job, too. Columbo is close to a pipe dream right now, who may pan out over time, but again, who knows? Peterman will be in his third year, and if he doesn’t sack up soon, he will depart, too.

Rereading that, I realize I didn’t make myself clear about Gurode’s replacement—he would have to start. Johnson may or may not ever make a backup, but right now he is getting killed and cannot be counted on. Getting Mawae or someone like him may be the answer here.

Come to think of it, I don’t trust Johnson even as a backup. Maybe one in the 3rd or 5th who can handle emergencies and learn until the veteran retires.

I would be surprised if at least two other linemen were not obtained, though, probably a guard and a tackle, as well as a fullback. Rafael, your analysis of tackle sounds like the one last year about cornerback, and this year about safety. If somebody is going to step up, and you have three or four candidates, you have nobody. This has burned them before, and I don’t see them letting right tackle burn them again unless they are pretty well sure they have somebody ready to step up, no matter who that turns out to be.

There is a reason why Jerry Jones went after Bill Parcells. He had been through the wash of Chan Gailey, Barry Switzer, Dave Campo and wanted a coach who he could respect and had an NFL resume worth the Dallas Cowboys coaching job.

Why is offensive line coach any different. The success teams like Denver and Atlanta have is due to coaching. Find a good one and pay him dearly Jerry…….it does not affect the cap……..and it will be worth their weight in GOLD!

Personally I preferred Wahle to Rivera, but hey he could have been healthy but he has not been. Oh well the only bust in the FA season is a change from years past. I say Mawae on the cheap works…….can he play a little G also? We really need a guy that can do both. I would like to see a draft pick or two dedicated to the draft also depending on these late season additions if they have any thing to contribute…….we should know in their offseason conditioning.

What’s up with Polite? He is a FB or he isn’t…….I guess he ain’t. Well you used to just go to OU, Nebraska or any other big rushing offense and take their FB and you were fine. Enter Bob Stoopes and the soon to be fired Nebraska coach Bill Calahan. Nobody runs the ball down there anymore. Does the FB still exist?

I would just go get another good TE……..spend a 3rd or 4th on him. We got a 3rd this year something we gave up last year for Henson. Witten, Campbell and a player to be named later that could all block run and catch would be nice. If Campbell had a few more catches it would help make him more of a legit threat than another guard…….but hey you cannot have it all.

MB3 as FB? Hey why not the kid has shown some ability to block…….and we use a lot of single back sets anyway………and we got TT as another alternative at halfback. Why not MB3 get more plays at FB and on 3rd down and to give Jones a breather. He is sort of that utility back that parcells likes anyway.

1 – Center: Draft Mike Degory of Florida or Kyle Young of Fresno (if he enters, he’s a Jr) they’re 2 Jumbo sized Centers (they’re 6-6 and 6-5 and over 310 pounds) that are known as being powerfull and nasty. Al Johnson is the prototypical Lineman that Denver craves, maybe something can be worked among the 2 teams, Tom Nalen isn’t getting any younger and they don’t have a capable backup behind him. Gurode stays because he provides depth that’s needed when Parcells takes only 7 OLineman to games. Mawae isn’t the player he used to be, he played in the first 6 games of this season and he wasn’t the factor he used to be.

2- Toniu Fonoti at G is an interesting prospect, he was traded to Minnesota because he isn’t in the gym as much as his coaches would want, here in Dallas as Allen knows real well that’s one of Parcells golden rules, he might be bringed here with a low cost contract because he just played in one game at Minn (he injured his groin and was placed in IR).

3) Take a FA.

4) Tackles are left as they’re.

5) Draft a TE that can catch the ball and block, and most important, he has to be good at both.

This means: 1st Round pick at Center, Gurode being resigned, Fonoti being signed, a FA FB acquisition and a TE being drafted from Round 3 to 4. That’s 4 low cost signings and a high salary C.

we’re not about to spend a 1st-round pick on a lineman.

“History shows again and again…”

Raf it’s from Drew Boyhart of the Huddle Report, I think he writes well and studies film. I also just read a profile on him in the Blitz thathad him as the 15th pick. seemed to say he was a deep threat and had also been playing more H back

I meant 15th rated tight end not pick.

Sign Fred Beasley or Mack Strong. Those guys won’t command big money and they are worth it. I would also sign Mawae, if he isnt too injured. Draft a G, a blocking TE, and OLB and FS. The G can be ready for when Allen or Rivera go down.

Raf,

I think you are being too hard on Rivera. Remember Green Bay had studs at tackle and center when he was there. Rivera is forced to help both positions with the Cowboys. And while our pass protection on the right side leavs something to be desired for the first time in a long long time I’ve seen running backs makes positive yards going in that direction.

Cash,

He has been effective on running plays and getting out in space on screens. But starting around the first Giants game, he has had a lot of trouble with guys going straight at him on passing plays. The Giants ran over him. Even guys like Michael Strahan, whom Rivera outweighs by about 30 lbs. were pushing him right back into Bledsoe’s lap.

I’m hoping this is the result of conditioning, namely a lack of weight training because of his back surgery, and that the Rivera of old shows up in ‘06. But that weakness converns me. Rivera was known as a tough as nails guy. He’s playing with a lot of finesse right now and not much power.

TM,

Don’t get me wrong, I think he’ll have a good career, I just don’t think he fits what this team is clearly looking for, which is another TE who can block like Campbell.

Thomas is even more of a speed TE than Witten. Thomas is only 238 lbs. which makes him roughly 30 lbs. lighter than Witten. I don’t see him handling NFL defensive ends.

Rafael:
From your comments, center and guard(s) are higher priority than tackle(s), with Flozell and at least 3 tackle competitors expected to return.
Could Larry Allen play center?

Agree with the Vet center as #1 priority – half the issue with center is making the right reads and adjustments against the defence. Didn’t this cost us a touchdown last week? Will make the whole line better.

1. I reckon a good FB will give us a great edge – we need to look hard for one. Saw some great analysis on O’Neal in the SD game. A great FB has the same feel for holes as a great TB, they know which defender to hit to spring the TB. Don’t think a TE is going to give you that.

1. Guards

We’re lucky that if this is seen as the only area of significant need. Although I have to say I have grave concerns on QB. I fear that Bledsoe comes from that “great measurables” group of QB’s (e.g. Vinny, Leaf) but you need a QB with “great intangibles” to get you to a SuperBowl (e.g. Montana, Brady). He’s going to make that critical mistake in a playoff game that knocks us out — no second chances….

Lee:
You’ve got to be kidding, right? Allen hasn’t played a single snap at C in his career, didn’t played in College and I can bet that he didn’t in High School. You need repetition to be able to do your job while taking the snaps to the QB, making the proper calls at the Line, blocking for the run and protecting the passer. Allen at times doesn’t even looks to have the quickness required for the job. That’s as big a NO as the one to those wanting to trade or to dismiss Ellis and Glover.

Boy from Oz:
And where are the Phil Simmses, Doug Williamses, Jeff Hostetlers, Mark Rypiens, Trent Dilfers and Brad Johnsons of this world? Those who think that Bledsoe is better than most of those guys, please raise one hand, those who think he’s better than all of them raise both.

Easy on disparaging remarks on Marco Rivera, Raf (just kidding! – since we share the same last name I favor him and wear his #62 jersey!) I’d like to think Rivera STILL has a good few years in him.

Seriously, I agree 100% on your excellent o-line analysis.

Center upgrade for sure; Rivera- need to take a good hard look at him and decide if we need more. Peterman needs a good hard look as well.
Flo will be back but draft a 3rd or 4th rd tackle for another project.

Chandus:
I didn’t say ‘move Allen to center’. I asked could Allen play center, and often see guys listed as center/guard. And I’ve heard Larry doesn’t want to run too far anymore.

i just read the eagles may not resign runyan. sign runyan and mawae and the line is fixed and fierce.then we can use our picks on real impact players like lbs or fss

Someone please explain to me why almost noone on here thinks we need to adress RT? I understand that we have 3 guys on the roster that COULD compete for the starting job, but at this point 2 of them have shown that they cannot succeed as a starting tackle in this league.

I understand the arguement about Petiti being a rookie, but he isn’t even servicable right now, he’s flat out bad. The only time we can rely on him at all is when he has TE or RB help. Even if he takes a step up next year he’ll still be below average. I don’t mindkeeping Petiti as the backup guy, but he needs to spend some time on the bench next season to work on, well, everything.

Columbo is just as much of a crapshoot, and he’s not even under contract for next season. We don’t know if he’ll ever be able to get over his injury, and even if he does, we don’t know if he’s any good.

Tucker has had all the chances in the world to succeed, but he hasn’t been able to step up and be anything other than servicable. At this point, he isn’t going to develope too much more. Right now he’s better than Petiti, so we need to decide whether we want potential or skill at backup T and let one of these two go.

My whole point is that we have 3 bodies that we could throw at the T next season, but none of them have shown any real sign that they can handle the position. Quantity does not mean quality. On the other hand, we have 2 guys at G who have shown that they can play at a high level. We also have a young guy behind them they BP seems to think could handle the pos is one of the old guys gets old in a hurry.

altercall:
For me, the answer is: because the season isn’t finished yet, and because I don’t want to trash Petitti, who may be doing the best he can(and will have to do something Sunday).
But to continue the discussion, the 3 guys on the roster(Petitti, Columbo, and Tucker) is 4 if you count Rogers on IR.
Runyan is a right tackle, but could some of these 10 year guys just want one more good signing bonus?
I just found a prophetic quote by Marco Rivera, on a webpage of the Washington Post.

“I believe we’re going to be the best offensive line in the NFL,” Rivera, a member of the last three NFC Pro Bowl squads, said at the news conference."

The date of the article was 04 March 2005. I guess Rivera was assuming that Torrin Tucker would be right tackle, on that NFL best offensive line.

Lee

First, Rogers was cut, he’s not even on the team. We could have kept him on IR and had his rights, but BP didn’t even think he was worth an empty IR spot.

Second, even though we have to depend on Petiti and Tucker right now doesn’t mean that we have to deny that neither, from what they have shown, can handle a starting NFL line job if we want to have a good line.

Lastly, I don’t want to get a FA tackle, I want to use a draft pick on one. If we use our 1st, it’ll be right in the area where some of the elite RTs go, and we cound still get a very good FS with our 2nd pick. If we use our second, we should still get a pretty good RT.

altercall:
Jacob Rogers is still listed on the roster, under ‘injured reserve’, on dallascowboys.com…the roster does seem to be up to date, with Ben Noll gone, and Cory Proctor recently added.
I’m not against spending a 1st round pick on a tackle. Kyle Young from Fresno State is a junior, and he could be unavailable until 2007.
Also, when Rivera made his statement, he may have considered a HOF left guard, recent ProBowl left tackle, 2nd round draft choices at center and right tackle(Rogers), and himself.

Lee,

Rogers was cut on 8/24/05. Here’s a link to the cowboysplus.com article:

http://www.cowboysplus.com/topstorync/stories/082505cpcowreport.a61f119b.html

Rivera’s comment was made when they thought Rogers would be the starting RT.

altercall:
Thanks for the link to that page, which does say,

" The lowdown on injury settlements: Now that Rogers and Cundiff have been waived, they will have 24 hours to clear waivers. If they aren’t claimed, Rogers and Cundiff will be placed on the Cowboys’ injured reserve list.

Rogers will receive his full salary for this season because he suffered a season-ending injury. Cundiff will get paid for the amount of time he would have missed, which is probably at least a month. "

Could Rogers have cleared waivers, and been placed on inured reserve?

What constitutes a move? A roster addition or a position change?

Let’s say what we saw last week is the rule, the line implodes, and the Cowboys lose out. They draft about 13 or 14. I think they would have to at least consider something like this (which I don’t think will ever happen):

1. Draft a left tackle.
2. Move Adams to right tackle, where he is less susceptible to speed rushers and can use his power to hold off the slower strong side ends.
3. Have Pettiti back up both sides.
4. Have Tucker take over the old Noll combo guard-tackle backup slot.
5. Draft an OLB in the second.
6. Draft a center in the third.
7. No fourth.
8. Fifth-seventh, take what is available of wide receiver-kick returners, safeties, guards, inside linebackers, and fullbacks. Plug as many holes as possible.

Lee,

Don’t be a smartass, all that means is that he’s on our IR. They do that for insurance/settlement reasons. He is in all other aspects a free agent right now. If some team wants to sign him so that they have his rights, they are free to do that. Hence the line right after the one you quoted,

“After the injury settlement, Rogers and Cundiff are free to sign anywhere except Dallas.”

I can stand someone not knowing the facts, but now you’re trying to be a jerk and distort them so that you look better. The facts are the facts, Rogers is not a Cowboy and we cannot sign him again until free agency starts next season.

altercall:
I’m not trying to distort anything, but you include another obvious contradiction:
“After the injury settlement, Rogers and Cundiff are free to sign anywhere except Dallas.”
I don’t need to ask with whom Cundiff signed.

Lee

Pease read the whole article. It explains that situation. Cundiff was not put on IR, he was just an injury settlement. That being the case, he could not resign with the team until week 10. Since Rogers was put on IR, he cannot be signed by us until FA starts. Even then, though, BP made it very clear htat his tenure in Dallas is done. Rogers is not an option. Even if he were, I would not want him as our main option at RT.

altercall:
Derrick and Nick on the pre-game show said they’d had at least 5 emails(none from me) about confusion over whether the Cowboys still had ‘rights’ to Rogers. The official website’s roster page didn’t help, by giving Rogers number 75, and displaying his bio. But Nick’s answer was that the Cowboys ‘were done with him, and they’ve washed their hands of him.’

Lee

It seemed very clear to me from day one. He was cut by us on August 24th.Just like any other player that is cut, we have no rights to that player. We still have the obligation of his medical situation, though. For league purposes, since there is still money coming to him in medical bills and the like, he has to be listed on our IR. Since we chose to cut him rather than just put him on IR, we had to negotiate an injury settlement with him, for which I’m sure there is a pretty set standar. That action forfieted any chance we had to sign him until FA in 2006.

The issue with Cundif was different since he was not injured as badly; he would not have been on the IR.