Will Payton Swipe Some Assistants from Dallas' Cupboard?

Rafael:

I thought you had said something about Todd Haley being the heir apparent as OC (at least in name) if Payton were to get the HC job elsewhere. What happened with that?

Gary Gibbs turned out some really good LB’s when he was the HC at OU. That was about his biggest achievement there. He never struck me as being a Parcells type of guy anyway and I’m sure BP has other people he can bring in. Carl Banks seems to have a good head on him, I wonder if he’d be a candidate. Sparano leaving doesn’t strike me as too much of a loss, especially if there are guys like Beightol, possibly Solari, and the guy who got fired from University of Miami out there on the market. Ironically the Saints actually have some damn good linemen already so maybe their talent can make him look really good.

Sterling,

I’ve read of Haley replacing Payton but that assumes that Payton alone leaves. If Sparano also goes, you’ve got to get a bigger fish, IMO.

So many threads! Mr. Bill, thanks for your thoughtful response to my comments on Cowboys “collapses”. We’re dealing in semantics-to me a collapse indicates blowing it at the end when you have some control over events. It’s a verb to me-the team “collapses” You seem to be defining it more loosely, like a noun, so any time a team starts off well then ends the season poorly it’s by definition a collapse. I guess I associate the word with what we usually call a “choke!” And I know every team deals with injuries, but, at least in my memory, Danny White was key to that team. Who was the backup? Hogeboom? It was such a dropoff, and our defense was never that solid on those early 80’s teams.
    Rafael: You got on me for my criticism of Payton and desire to see him go-well,partly I can’t defend it, it’s just something about the rhythm of the playcalling. All I know is with him AND parcells I always know what’s coming. What is slightly concrete is that I didn’t feel he could call the plays under pressure, in the key situations in the 4th quarter-we always seemed to fall back on the same old stuff. I don’t nec, think BP is any better.. All that said, OC’s are to me vastly overrated. They’re all geniuses when they’ve got teams loaded with talent. If we have a great OLine and a faster receiver next year, who cares who calls the plays? It’ll work out great. A great example is Norv Turner. Was he really that great of an OC? I mean, with that talent, what did it matter? None of the offenses he’s been in charge of since have been explosive. I think DC’s make a lot more difference in their schemes than OC’s-and haven’t many more of them gone on to be successful head coaches?
    OH and Rafael, on your Super Bowl-predicting stats: 1) You said they were no help in predicting winners this weekend-but isn’t the point that they seem to have been strong predictors of WHICH TEAMS got this far?
  2) I think I made this point when you originally put that out there, but couldn’t you just boil it down to one stat-point differential? That basically rewards a high standing in those two areas. And I’ve always started to pay attention at about the halfway mark of a season to that by just quickly scanning the standings….

larry,

You are correct in that I am using ‘collapse’ as a noun.

So, you are using a more narrow interpretation — perhaps even a personal one. That’s fine with me. We’ve both had our say, and I see no sense in arguing my side further. Neither one of us is completely satisfied with the other’s definition. Even so, I suspect we will both survive.

… Who was the backup? Hogeboom? …

Actually, it was Steve Pelleur. Hogeboom left after the previous season.

Your comments on the value of offensive coordinators got me to thinking. In my opinion, the overwhelming majority of people who post on the internet (especially including myself) have a hard enough time coordinating their own wardrobes, much less evaluating the skills and abilities of coordinators. I suspect that their (and my) ability to judge position coaches is even less.

Me, I’ll accept whoever gets chosen for the Cowboys … not that I have any other option.

One point I would like to make, though. It certainly does make a difference if the new offensive coordinator brings a new philosophy and a completely new playbook along with him. I would prefer to avoid that, and retain continuity within the offensive system. We can’t keep jerking the systems around every other year and expect to improve. We are too close to success to start another rebuilding project now.

Every now and then an offensive mind comes along and seems to bring a new twist-Landry, Walsh, Coryell? I’m just a fan like you, not some student of NFL history, but I’m talking in generalities… I don’t think Parcells is going let anyone come in with a whole new philosophy-my impression is that when you’re a coordinator for him you’re expected to fit his mold. But I tried to make two points that I think can be evaluated objectively, although we have no experience and aren’t experts ourselves:
1) Has there ever been an offensive coordinator (or off.-minded head coach, e.g. Walsh, Coryell [ I just know that’s spelled wrong])-who was so good they have duplicated that success with different teams? I can’t think of any off-hand. 2) Someone with more knowledge can probably comment on this, but my impression is that recently the more succesful HC’s seem to have come from a defensive background than offensive. Someone want to post a comparitive list?
Finally, remember, even though we’re just posting on the internet, we have to have opinions and state our judgements! Otherwise it’d be no fun, and there’d be nothing to discuss! At least on this site most people seem to be pretty knowledgeable

Of the last several coaches who have won the Super Bowl only one that I know of came from a “defensive background” and that is Bill Belichick. The rest have all been offensive coordinators or some other offensive assistant. Just off the top of my head:

Jon Gruden
Brian Billick
Mike Shanahan
Mike Holmgren

The only one I don’t know about is Dick Vermeil.

The ironic part of these offensive minded guys winning the Super Bowl is that at least in the case of Gruden and Billick it was their defenses that were given much of the credit for their victories.

I remember hearing a few years ago something that Tony Dungy had reportedly said to Brian Billick. He said isn’t it crazy that the two of them would wind up coaching the teams they did, with Dungy’s team (the Colts) having the best offense in the NFL that year, and Billick’s Ravens having one of the most dominant defenses in the league, yet struggling mightily on offense at the time.

The trend in hiring head coaches seems like it has been more toward hiring defensive guys the last few years, but the offensive oriented coaches seem to have better success in the Super Bowls with the exception of Belichick.

For all of the Payton bashers out there, be careful what you ask for. I’d rather have Payton calling plays than Parcells. I’d also rather have Payton as the OC instead of Sparano. All of the talk of Palmer becoming the OC is scary. His offenses couldn’t find the goal line if it were the only line painted on the field. If any of these scenarios plays out I think the offense will take a step backwards next year. Seeing how they spent a great deal of this year going backwards, I’m sorry to see Payton leave.

larry:

There are quite a few offensive coordinators/head coaches duplicating their success with more than one team. Mike Shanahan and Mike Holmgren were successful with the 49ers and then went on to when Super Bowls on their own as head coaches. Both have teams in their respective championship games this weekend. Jon Gruden took the Raiders deep into the playoffs and then went to the Bucs and won a Super Bowl. Brian Billick was credited with a lot of the success of the Vikings high scoring offenses of the late 90’s and he won a Super Bowl on his own with the Ravens. Andy Reid was successful with the Packers and then head coached in 4 straight NFC Championships and one Super Bowl. Offensive minded guys have had a lot of success duplicating what worked with the teams they started from over the years.

I almost forgot about Jim Fassil who as I recall was an OC or some sort of offensive assistant with the Broncos and followed Dan Reeves to the Giants and then later coached the Giants to a Super Bowl appearance.

Steelyeyedmissle,

Palmer was a very good OC when he had talent. His Jags teams were feared and with cause. He found his ceiling in that he’s not HC material. Neither is Norv Turner, it seems, but they’re very good at what they do.

His last two teams have been expansion squads, Cleveland and Houston which have been very poor in talent. I wouldn’t judge him on those. If he were to join the staff, I think he would be a positive.

Speaking of Reeves, don’t forget that he was The ‘Boys OC under Landry for a lot of years; and Reeve’s has coached in 4 SB’s as HC. (Try to forget the final score of each one though) LOL!

Now that I’ve looked a few things over, my vote and hope is for Saunders. Power running and downfield passing schemes would fit pretty good, and he just might bring a quality OL coach (Solari) with him.

Stick that in your hot tub Jerry J! Just say NO to TO!

THAT’S RIGHT!

Good point about Reeves, actually I can remember a time when it seemed like about half of the NFL head coaches came from the staff of either Tom Landry or Don Shula. Now it is the disciples/former assistants/assistants of former assistants of Bill Walsh/Mike Holmgren or Bill Parcells/Belichick that seem to have the most head coaching positions these days.

Reeves, Mackovic, Ditka, et al, et al, et al. I’m not sure of the exact count, but I believe Landry produced about between half a dozen and a dozen HC’s from his staff over the years.

But don’t forget Parcells, Jimmy Johnston, and Belichick own 7 SB wins and 8 appearances. You could (rightfully) give JJ a third, as we all know Switzer had nothing to do with that team.

The Giants in the late 80s, Cowboys in the 90s and NE to start this decade (the naughties?) make up the most dominant teams of their eras.

Got to give props to the DCs!

Hello Cowboy Fans,

I don`t know who to feel more sorry for Payton or Mangini. Don`t get me wrong I wish I was making what they are but these will be the first & last head coaching positions either will have. Both are coming into teams with major problems. In the Jets case Mangini is also dealing with a tremedous cap problem thanks to Pennington. In both cases you are dealing with owners who do not want to spend a lot of money. Since the Jets lost their new stadium Johnson closed the zipper on his wallet. I never really liked Herm Edwards as a head coach but I thought Haslett did a descent job in New Orleans.
But with certain teams such as the Jets & Saints it really does not matter who the Head Coach is. Without Commitment from ownership these 2 franchises will continue to wallow in mediocrity . ( If they are lucky enough)

Jesse NY:

I see it just the opposite way. The BEST situation to come into for a young first time HC would be situations like Payton and Mangini are stepping into. The expectations are so incredibly low for both franchises right now given all their problems from last year, that whatever success either of them have will make them look like miracle workers. The owners of both teams are well known around the NFL and by the public at large for not having a commitment to win, so I would think these coaches would get cut more slack because of that. I remember hearing Mike Ditka a few months ago say that “that owner down there” in reference to Tom Benson is the worst owner in all of professional sports and even a lot of his fans agree.

The worst situation would have been one like Payton was offered a couple of years ago by the Raiders, especially after Randy Moss and LaMont Jordan came there this season. The expectations are high to begin with because it’s the Raiders and when they make offseason moves like they did last year, most coaches are only going to get one year to prove themself with that talent. That’s a lot of pressure for a young coach to deal with. I think Payton will do alright with the Saints, he’ll have a young QB to work with so that might buy him some time.

Fighter15:

While Jimmy Johnson is one of my favorite coaches of all time, his assistants did not have much success at all when they became NFL head coaches. Wannstedt, Turner, and Butch Davis all got their shots, but not a single one of them has a record worth talking about as an NFL HC.

I notice you say the late 80’s Giants were the dominant team of their era…they were good, but I don’t think I could put them over the 49ers of the late 80’s. Personally, I can’t stand either franchise, I am just trying to be objective.

Sterling:

I see your point about nothing to lose.
But without commitment from ownership you can put Vince Lombardi in there & an A + effort might get them to 500. Being a young coach you need all the tools you can get & Benson & Johnson will not spend the money. If you do not spend you do not win. I thought one of the better coaching jobs I seen in the last 20 years was that of Jim Mora ( not Jr )
He was the only coach to have a winning record with the Saints !
But he was remembered for not getting his team into the playoffs.
My point is when Payton & Mangini are let go other owners are going to look at their records, not the conditions of why they failed.

Jesse NY:

I thought Jim Mora was the coach of the Colts after he was with the Saints. Maybe I am mixing him up with someone else though, Lindy Infante? I don’t know for sure, maybe he coached the Colts first and then the Saints. I thought he got other coaching gigs after the Saints though, and I remember they had a great defense when he was there.

If other owners only looked at coaches records and not the conditions of why they failed then I don’t see how Norv Turner, Dave Wannstedt, Bill Belichick, Dennis Erickson, or any of a number of coaches who didn’t have good records at their first HC jobs ever got their second chances. The talk is that Haslitt will get another shot, and his record was pretty horrible.

I think being a head coach in the NFL (or MLB or NBA) is one of the few jobs where once you have the job and everyone associates you as being a head coach you will probably get at least one more job offer to do that again even if you don’t do a really good job. It’s like a private club that you have to get yourself kicked out of once you are in there. I bet Mike Martz, Mike Sherman, and eventually even Mike Tice will get second chances at being a HC. If not this year, then at some point even if they have to go back to being assistants for a few years. They will get second shots. Dom Capers might even get another shot at it.

Sterling:

Again, Point well taken.

It seems with these 2 franchises I don`t see any way these guys have a shot at suceeding.

I heard some reports today that Nick Saban might be interested in obtaining the services of T.O. for the Dolphins next year. Hopefully this means that the media will stop talking about him coming to play for the Cowboys!!

I think the hard part of coaching is when you are successful you continuously lose your assitants. Success these days in the NFL has been more for assistants than College Coaches. Saban was NFL assistant before MSU and LSU so he qualifies in that category too.

Spurrier fell flat…..and Marvin Lewis pointed out how little he knew about an NFL practice……..

hiring Bob Stoopes, Charlie Weis or Urban Meyer might well cost the NFL owners as much or more than Payton, Mangini, or Saunders. Weis obviously has NFL talent but I think the cost of taking a coach away from his kingdom a perrenial powerhouse at NCAA Div 1A football is getting higher and higher. Steve Spurrier proved it guarntees nothing. College guys get to work less, and many enjoy the recruiting process and clinics and campus life as much or more than their students.

There used to be much less turnover hech even bad teams got five years to figure it out…….not any more. The revolving door will continue……don’t be surprised to see plenty of good assistants lining up for a chance to work for Bill Parcells…….it seems like a sure bet to get a shot at head coaching in the NFL…….and with Bill short on time…….perhaps running the most prestigious franchise in all of professional sports……sorry Yankee fans…..baseball is boring. Bill Walsh himself would not get free reign on play calling or playbooks for the Dallas Cowboys as long as Bill Parcells is the head coach. Bill will find good talent and plug em in. Same as on the field he has the best pull in football. I do wish he would start with a call to Hoffman!

Correct me if I am wrong, but after the Chiefs game this year, Parcells commented on how well coached their offense was. He is also good friends with coach Vermeil I think, so Vermeil may be able to persuade Saunders to come here. If Rafael is right and Saunders feels spited for not getting consideration for the KC head coaching vacancy, then again two more things working in his favor to coach in Dallas 1) Parcells won’t be HC for far too long 2) he has been considered here as HC already.

Sterling, before this year, Haslett had a .500 winning percentage in 5 years with that Saints. I think he should have gotten a pass on this year, no home games at all. Especially that joke of a home game that gave the Giants 9 home games this year in essence.

Good point Eric R. I remember him making that comment.

Eric:
If Saunders comes here with Solari under his wing, Payton can have Tony Sparano.

Sterling:
The main reason for the apparent “private club” that the NFL Coaches appear to be is that, usually, those coaches tend to be successfull at Coordinator jobs and if they fail at Head Coaching jobs several reasons can be part of the miss, just ask Belichick, he’s a good coach that failed miserably in Cleveland.

For the Belichick doubters in the blog, I do know that Belichick owes alot to Parcells, he has assistants build on Parcells molds, but Belichick makes the team though to beat, even when injuries pile up. That and great Drafts makes up for a darn good Coach.

BTW,
The more I read, the more I find that Paul Alexander could be a great addition in a staff, he’s a great OLine Coach and has worked as the H.C. Assistant under Marvin Lewis in a system that has some similarities to the Dallas one.

But I do think that all this is as much speculation as talking about the Draft and Free Agency, Parcells could be OK with the staff he already has in place…

Whoa Jon, I love the Cowboys, but as a Yankee fan, they are the most prestigious team in sports. They are either loved or hated more than any other team anywhere. Baseball is not as exciting, I agree, but there is no more prestigious place than the “house that Ruth built”.

 Players who come to Yankee stadium are sometimes in awe if they’ve never been there, with monument park and all. I don’t think the same holds true for the Cowboy’s home turf.

maybe once the new stadium is built……i have been to live pro baseball and live pro football….and the two just don’t compare……maybe game 7 of the world series matches upto a preseason football game…..but thats about it……

baseball has always been boring….but once they went out on strike……and throw in steriod scandal and gambling…….it just ain’t the same……besides what is fun about watching an all star team with 5 times the payroll lose to a farm team called the Marlins????

Jon:

I also don’t know what big-time college coach would want to give up their job to go into the pressure cooker of the NFL and dealing with the egos that accompany almost every owner in the league. Once you have success at a big time college program you can pretty much run that college town or even the whole state as your own personal kingdom. Look at Bobby Bowden, Joe Paterno, Jim Tressel, Bob Stoopes, and Mack Brown. They are so set up in their respective positions that job security is not even an issue. It took CU years to get rid of Gary Barnett, and he ran a scandal plagued program that didn’t even win a championship!! Look at Pete Carroll this year, I am sure if he wanted to he could have been in the running for another NFL job. He stayed because it is a great gig all around.

bushpilot:

I agree, Haslett is a very good coach who didn’t have much to work with there. I hope my comments didn’t leave you with the impression that I didn’t think he was a good coach. I am sure he will get another chance to prove himself.

Chandus:

Belichicks assistants weren’t just built on Parcells molds, many of them worked for Parcells directly and learned from him, not Belichick.

Belichick took many of Parcells Jets assistants with him to the Pats when Parcells retired from the Jets. I guess they felt more loyalty or got a better deal with him than they would with Al Groh. Since Parcells swore that he would never coach again that makes sense, BP seemed pretty emphatic about never coaching again in that last press conference. I am sure that Weis and Crennell would have gladly gone back to Parcells in a heartbeat when he took over the Cowboys if the Pats hadn’t been winning Super Bowls like they were. Belichick is a good coach, I never said he wasn’t, but I will be more convinced when he wins a Super Bowl without the help of Parcells’ old assistants.

bushpilot,

Manchester United would probably have something to say about your Yankees comment. More valuable. Much bigger fan base.

Chandus,
What makes you think Paul Alexander could be had? Not being snarky, just wondering.

Jesse,
Don’t feel bad for Payton. He’s got some talent to work with. They were underachievers under Haslett, in part because Brooks was melting down before Katrina made this team the NFL’s Expos. If Payton can get the Qb position turned around, they can bounce back in a hurry.

Sterling,

Only one rule you don’t break…..don’t sleep with major Alumni’s wife or daughter……and yeah you can run the town. If you fail at rule one there is still a job for you at espn.

I would have fired Barnett a long long time ago. Hech the School President left before he did. Amazing. But your point is well taken…..even under NCAA current rules and watchful eye you get a lot of “perks” at the college level.

Jon:

You got it…pretty much anything you want is there for the asking…but only after you have won big. You can check into hotels with strippers all you want after you have a championship under your belt, just make sure you do it in Tuscaloosa and not Orlando so no one will tell!!

Ah, Eatman mentions Pasqualoni for linebacker coach. Now that makes sense. I wonder if Bill hired him and banked him up for this exact situation. He coached Freeny, Bulluck, Josh Thomas and Morlon Greenwood, and also Darius, Tebucky Jones, Will Allen and Quentin Harris. Hell I suppose he could slide right into Zimmer’s job if necessary. You can bet he’ll be good for Ware and Burnett, if this happens.

Vlad,

He also mentions Palmer for the offense, but also Mike Heimerdinger, who is the top candidate to replace Gary Kubiak in Denver, being a long time Broncos’ assistant (several teams tried to hire him away unsucessfully, including Chan Gailey when he first took over the Cowboys before he left for Tennessee) and,
drumroll please, Al Saunders and Mike Solari.

I wonder if Nick got those names from somebody inside, or if he reads this blog. :)

Raf, manchester who? Everyone knows who the Yankees are, regardless of the love or hate for the team. I’ve never liked soccer myself, I’ll take football, baseball, and hockey over that any day.

Sterling, no I didn’t think that you meant he was a bad coach, I just didn’t know if you knew what his actual record was in his tenure as the Saints coach. I figured I would throw the stats out there for those who didn’t know.

  I agree that he should get a second chance, maybe with an owner who shows he wants to win, more than prance around on the sideline with an umbrella. Payton has his work cut out for him.

Jon, I agree baseball can be tedious at times, so many games, that’s why I love football the most. Only 16 games to prove yourself worthy of the playoffs.
  There is nothing like a game at the stadium though when the Red Sox are in town, or a playoff game-electric. I’ve been to a couple when I lived on the east coast, football doesn’t compare live to an event like that.
     I always thought that i was too far away from the action, as opposed to baseball. I’d rather watch an important game on a big screen tv, you can see everything, although the tailgating is great for football.

just from the o-lines play, i don’t really think i would mind someone new teaching them. either they’re so bad that they are unteachable, or hes a bad coach. the latter is probably less likely, but we need to shake it up on that o-line. geez, after having to protect vinny you guys should be able to protect a 33(?) year old

mrwnt10:

Yeah, amazingly Vinny in 2004 got sacked a lot less than Bledsoe last season and with a “supposedly” worse line on the right side. Having Flozell probably accounts for a lot of that sack difference, although the relative agility of the 41 year old compared to this particular 33 year old might have accounted for a handful of them. I would take Bledsoe anyday over Vinny, he just has to have a good line to give him time.

I notice Schottenheimer fired his O-Line coach Carl Mauck today because he was so irritated by the poor play of the line. I wonder if Parcells will shake things up in a similar way by letting Sparano go with Payton?

Sterling,

He could be a hardass and keep Sparano since he’s under contract through 2006, but he’s let Gibbs, who’s also locked up, interview for coordinator jobs, most recently at Texas A&M. I don’t see why he would treat Sparano and differently.

And it speaks well for Sparano that Payton wants him and there is speculation that Dallas wants him around. That tells me they don’t blame the Petitti/Tucker meltdown on him.

It will be interesting to see how Sean
Payton calls his offense in N.O..That
should give us a glimpse into how tight
a rein BP keeps on his assistant coaches

With all the coaching changes i don’t see alot of draft-day trades happening
but that same dynamic could free up
more vet free agents.

Rafael:
I can see Alexander moving on because I don’t see him taking Bratkowski’s job and even less the one of Marvin Lewis. He only has one way up, and is out of town.

Rafael,
How SNARKY were you trying to be, you wordsmith you? LOL!

Just saw an interview with Chris Palmer on ESPN. The segment was about Parcells coaching tree, and how he develops/treats his asst. coaches, etc. Palmer responded to a question regarding him possibly reuniting with BP by saying “You never know until you sign on the dotted line, I’ve been in this business long enough to know that.” It was a not so subtle attempt at being cryptic and oblique. Placing that statement in context however, the rest of the interview sounded to me like a man praising his former mentor and also like someone who is ready to roll up his sleeves and go back to work for him. He mentioned loyalty and the fact that Parcells always gladly takes his calls numerous times as well. Interesting that he was the one who got the face time on this subject.