Shopping Spears and Carpenter?
by Philosopher on Jan 22, 2008 1:22 PM CST
49 comments
DMN blog has an intriguing blurb that the Cowboys are shopping Spears and Carpenter while attending the Senior Bowl. Link to the entry below:
http://cowboys.beloblog.com/archives/2008/01/trade_rumors_swirling_about_carpenter_sp.html
My take: If, and that is a somewhat questionable if at this point, we could find interested parties, I would be happy to unload both of these guys, the caveat being what we could get in return. Now, one must admit that it is disappointing that 2 first round picks have not worked out for us, albeit for different reasons. I would label Spears a bust. He has the opportunity and hasn't done much with it. Carpenter, on the other hand, has suffered from our defensive alignment. Thus, I don't label him a bust because he hasn't really had the chance to play. Think back to the Seattle playoff game of last year, he got some playing time and showed some flashes of real skill. And of course, he is good on special teams. We might actually be able to get something for him.
So, what do you guys think? Try and trade both? Trade Spears and keep Carpenter? Or keep them both, as experienced back-ups are certainly a plus for a team when hit with injuries?
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I'm willing to part with Spears
at any time. Jay Ratliff/Jason Hatcher should be the LDE rotation if Rat is indeed moved back to DE.
Carpenter is still a question mark. I've seen him do some things when he gets on the field, the Seattle playoff game and a couple of others down the stretch last year, but he can't seem to convince coaches (Wade, Tuna) that he deserves playing time. Curious indeed.
by Dave Halprin on Jan 22, 2008 1:28 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Carpenter...iffy.
I'm not so sure about him (and it seems a lot of us share that sentiment). How many teams use the 4-3 alignment? If he gets shopped too, I hope we get something of value, we should.
by Nelson on Jan 22, 2008 1:31 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
most teams in the league run the 4-3
by Terry on Jan 22, 2008 1:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I hate losing depth
but I guess with Hatcher and Ratliff and Tank you could afford to part with Spears. Luckily, Bowen is an exclusive rights FA.
I'd keep Carp until you decide what Ellis and Burnett do? Burnett has been grumbling about wanting to start and Ellis is already grumbling about spencer. if you lose one of those guys and then suffer an injury to another one then we have no one.
unless Carp is the difference between adding say Samuel or Roy Williams WR or something. then you could draft a LB early.
by cosbie84 on Jan 22, 2008 1:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I would be more concerned with
depth at LB than DE. More LBs are needed to run the 3-4 than DEs.
by Cowboys81 on Jan 22, 2008 2:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
oh, and
bye bye Spears.
by Nelson on Jan 22, 2008 1:31 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
problem is that you're not going to get
any kind of real value for either player, I'm thinking probably no more than 4th or 5th rounder at best.
Both guys are first round busts which never lived up to their potential. Carpenter is a much better fit in a 4-3 scheme as an OLB where he can use his athletic ability and speed. He's not physical or tough enough to play ILB in a 3-4 scheme.
Spears is a solid player who defends the run very well but can't rush the passer. With Fergy coming back next season to rotate with Tank, Ratliff can start at DE with Hatcher and Bowen as backups.
Looking back Parcells really blew these 1st rd picks because they were definitely players he liked and wanted.
by Terry on Jan 22, 2008 1:34 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I agree Terry
Looking at mgssmith's work, we have:
Salary Bonus Cap total
2008 s 2008 b 2008 b
This might be the best line up
Canty 380 190 570
Ferguson 4,000 1,625 5,625
Ratliff 520 1,600 2,120
With these guys backing them up
Hatcher 445 150 595
Johnson 1,000 1,000
Spears 602 1,340 1,942
Bowen 360 360
Getting rid of Spears might save a million dollars (he would be the most expensive backup). After Bonus proration it would probably be less. Does the team get better cutting Spears, getting $2mm and playing Bowen more? Or by cutting Bowen and having Spears and $360k? It's not that clear to me.
Looking at the team, the money is tied up in NT more than DE.
Ferguson 4,000 1,625 5,625
Ratliff 520 1,600 2,120
Johnson 1,000 1,000
Spears 602 1,340 1,942
Canty 380 190 570
Hatcher 445 150 595
Bowen 360 360
Cutting Fergie and rotating Ratliff / Johnson (and perhaps a rookie?) at NT frees up $5.6mm and keeps the same DL we had all year on the field.
Replacing Spears with the Rat makes us better, but does it make us $3.7mm better?
Obviously given bonus proration etc the difference would not be that much.
Put another way, $3.7mm could be enough to keep Hamlin. I would rather see Canty&Bowen // Rat&Tank // Spears&Hatch w/Hamlin on the field than Canty&Bowen // Fergie&Tank // Ratliff&Hatcher and NO HAMLIN.
Onto Carp...
our starting LB's are:
Ellis 3,324 3,324
Akoydale 2,500 1,000 3,500
James 3,000 790 3,790
Ware 725 2,000 2,725
Spencer 300 1,200 1,500
Burnett 501 365 866
Carpenter 2,210 170 2,380
Rogers 370 85 455
Here we are also in the situation where a former first round pick will likely be our most expensive back up. Unlike the Spears situation, Carp can't work his way into the regular rotation and its hard to make a lineup where he fits in.
I also think Carp could be more interesting trade bait, if we took all his prorated cap charges he would probably be a pretty cheap pick up for a team and would be under contract longer. Maybe a team like the Bengals, Cards, Rams, Packers, Bears, Saints, or RAIDERS would give us a third or a 4th for him... Probably overly optimistic but I seem to have read that this draft is thin at LB...
by 325424 on Jan 22, 2008 8:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If memory serves me correctly . . .
The game Ratliff missed, Spears took some snaps at NT during the week of practice. The referenced blog was talking about 2nd day picks -- yes, they are not world-beaters, but I would much rather package them with whatever else you would need to pry Roy Williams out of Motown than just take roll of the dice draft choices. Didn't the Tuna say that Al Davis told him to take a chance on other team's 1st round draft choices in a trade?
by Long Ball on Jan 22, 2008 1:50 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I'd much rather
Shop Ayodele than Carpenter. His value is incomparably low at the moment, and really that's a product of being in a scheme that already has spectacular OLB play. We haven't seen enough of him to accurately gauge his play, but when he was on the field last year he seemed quite adequate.
by Or Moyal on Jan 22, 2008 1:53 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I like your thinking Or Moyal
Carpenter is bigger, younger, faster and more athletic than Ayodele. He is superior on pass coverage.
With his cap number and age ballooning by the year it might be time to cut bait. Both Burnett and Carpenter add more with less of a price tag.
by Cowboys81 on Jan 22, 2008 3:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Trade Spears, Keep Carpenter
Spears has had plenty of playing time and plenty of chances. Carp hasn't.
If we could maybe get a first-day pick for Spears, I'd be content.
Plus, we're deeper @ DE than we are at LB.
I'd like to see Captain Caveman on "D" more... not just on special teams.
by kcbrett5 on Jan 22, 2008 2:07 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Silver ie., Burnett
For nearly four years we said he was a bust. Now he is one of the most important LBs we have on the nickel defense. JMO, but Burnett or Carpenter would be an upgrade over Ayodele. We need more coverage abilities from that ILB position.
by Cowboys81 on Jan 22, 2008 3:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Trade spears,Keep captain caveman
by TrueBlue24 on Jan 22, 2008 3:18 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
These two must be packaged in a deal...
Roy Williams-Detroit, would be my first choice ...Carp, Spears, and a 3rd rounder is a reasonable deal..Roy Williams will be a free agent after next season...Detroit lacks bargaining power.
You guys keep insisting on them being bust...but I can hardly say they suck. Spears hasn't lived up to his abilities and Tuna's genuious drafting skills...but, he is a big part of the reason our rush defense is top 10 in the league.I believe he would do well as a DT in a 4-3, and start or add depth on a team that runs a 3-4 , He may not be good enough in our eyes, but he is damn sure better than alot of other DL in the league... Carpenter, on the other hand, He is more of the bust, I haven't seen anything out of him. And what I have seen was very disappointing...To keep him is foolish, He will not succeed here no matter what...Burnett is much better than him, and would start over him for sure. I would also try to move Ayodele as well.Burnett should be starting next year next to James....heck, package Spears,Carp,Ayodele,and R Williams for WR Roy Williams and DT Shaun Rodgers.
by BoyzRback07 on Jan 22, 2008 4:28 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Knowbody has seen enough thats the point
I haven't seen anything out of him. And what I have seen was very disappointing...
Where has he had the opportunity??
Where is the prove he is a bust?
I guess you didn't watch the Seattle game because he was the best player on the field that day.
He hasn't been on the field enough to make the assupmtion he is a bust. On the other hand Spears has. Spears hasn't done enough to justify his first round status.
I know a DE in a 3-4 defense is not supposed to get alot of sacks, but he rarely gets pressure, makes tackles. In most games he is hardly a mention on the stat sheet. 3.5 sacks in four years is a problem. We need more. Now with these trade rumors it's almost certtain Ratliff or Hatcher will be his replacement and I say that's a great move if it happens.
by Cowboys81 on Jan 22, 2008 5:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Its not what we see 81, its what the coaches see
and obviously they see a guy who is not good enough to play primarily because he isn't physical enough and cannot get off blocks.
In the Seattle game he wasn't playing ILB, he was making those plays coming off the edge, watch the tape and you'll see.
by Terry on Jan 22, 2008 8:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Cap Hit
Remember, if a player is traded all of his pro-rated bonus accrues in the current year.
If traded this year, Carpenter would be a hit of around $3.5mm ($4.5mm pro-rated bonus less scheduled salary of around $1mm).
Spears would count around $1.7mm net cap hit.
This would be too big a hit this year. They would be better off cutting Spears after June, 2008 and then the cap hit for 2008 is $700K for Spears. I think trading Carpenter this year will be tough.
by mgsmith100 on Jan 22, 2008 4:34 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Thats more reason not to cut him
Spears on the other hand won't cost much to cut.
Rumor is Detroit is shopping both Williams and DT Rogers in a package deal.]
Rogers would give us that wide load NT to rotate with Tank in the middle.
by Cowboys81 on Jan 22, 2008 5:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey 81, where'd U hear da rumor (source please)?
No offense, but I totally detest the work ethic of Shaun Rogers. He's an outstanding talent that won't get to the next level until he decides to get in shape.
The ongoing reports from the Detroit Free-Press has continually noted that despite the repeated "mandates" for this unconditioned DT to lose weight and increasing stamina, he refuses to comply. He's his own worst enemy in that he's out of shape and doesn't wanna work.
I cannot stand lazy players/people.
If Rogers doesn't respond to the militant Rod Marinelli, what makes you think he'll respond to Stewart and Soft Wade?
Just had a thought however - back to the rumor you heard - if the source is indeed legitimately serious, the King should look into it (as far as obtaining WR-Roy Williams is concerned).
Remember, Matt Millen is the Detroit Lions GM.
by kcbrett5 on Jan 22, 2008 7:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Package Carpenter and one of our first-rounders
and trade with a team like New England for their first round pick. They are supposedly looking to trade down in the draft, plus they need younger linebackers. That would put us at #7 in the draft, with a good chance at getting the top corner prospect.
by delaware on Jan 22, 2008 4:42 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
if we stand to gain all that much in that slot unless we're planning to release Roy and replace him with Kenny Phillips. There is a TON of secondary depth late in the first round-I'll have more on that soon. (Finishing up a big, big diary entry)
by Or Moyal on Jan 22, 2008 5:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Better value at CB late first
and into the second round
by Cowboys81 on Jan 22, 2008 5:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
PUT Fergie Carp Glenn Spears and maybe RW
in a package and give them back to Bppp
by Arkcowboys on Jan 22, 2008 6:14 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I am amused
by the willingness to keep Carp (who cant get on the field) and to label Spears (who has played 60-70% of the defensive downs every year he has been here) a bust. Spears isnt great but a group of smart coaches (Zimmer, Parcells, Phillips, Pasqualoni, etc) keep putting him on the field...
by 325424 on Jan 22, 2008 8:53 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
even funnier
is that Carp will get paid $2.4mm vs Spears $1.9mm.
so the $1.9mm bust starts and the oppressed bench guy gets $2.4mm...
at some point where people were drafted should stop mattering and it should be a combination of what they do and what they cost.
based on those criteria Spears aint that bad... will we have cheaper starter next year?
by 325424 on Jan 22, 2008 9:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The reason Carpenter
is a backup is because of the incumbents already cemented in place.
I can make the same argument about Burnett. Nobody is talking about him being a bust. Burnett, a former second round draft pick has been a backup here his whole career. Now, he is one of the most important LB's we have.
Spears was drafted to be a starter in a 3-4.
Carpenter was drafted as insurance and depth in the event Ellis could not make the transition from a 4-3 DE to a 3-4 OLB. Big difference. Add to the fact there was a boat load of talented LB's in place when Carpenter got here. Can't same that about DE.
Spears is a bust. Everyone knows it. The guy doesn't get sacks or create pressure. He is invisible on most Sunday's.
Carpenter hasn't had a real chance at starting. When he has played he's done very well. When Carpenter get's an opportunity to play and doesn't produce then talk to me about him being a bust. Until then, you have no factual basis for your argument.
Spears= 3.5 in four years for a starting DE. Now that's a bust!
by Cowboys81 on Jan 22, 2008 11:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Also
why else are the rumors flying about Spears being traded. Because the organization knows they missed on that draft pick. Another one of Parcells bad draft picks. He has made some good ones while here, but the bad ones are real bad.
by Cowboys81 on Jan 22, 2008 11:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I am not pretending that Spears is a superstar
or even that we will re-sign him when his contract runs out.
i recognize that its easier to adjust to the NFL as a defensive end than as a linebacker.
i still find it amusing that a guy who has been a starter since he arrived, has remained a starter despite the rise of Ratliff, Hatcher and Bowen and has been a decent player and held the point of attack vs the run under two systems is called a bust.
there is a difference between a disappointment (spears) and a bust (shante carver)
i also find it amusing that people are going out of their way to make excuses for Carp (whom i like and want to see make it) despite his complete inability to get on the field. nate jones has a more pronounced role on the defense than carpenter does.
part of the role of a site like this is to let us second guess mgmt. i dont think any of us think the team would be better off with us running personnel for the team but we do like to voice thoughts. its hard to voice opinions on a guy who never plays, but i do respect the coaches enough to think if neither BP (who chose you) nor WP (who inherited you) can find a reason to get you on the field it says something.
this is a league where Kenyon Coleman signed a five years $20 million deal w/ $6 million guaranteed Spears will be around for a long time
by 325424 on Jan 23, 2008 1:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldve kept Coleman over Spears
by Cowboys81 on Jan 23, 2008 9:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the factual basis is that he deson't show
the coaches anything in practice or preseason games to warrant him seeing the field. Anyone can flash as he did in the Seattle game, but a player needs to play at a consistent level in practice before the coaches will even consider playing them for any extended period in a regular season game.
by Terry on Jan 23, 2008 7:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
When your
starting linebackers have big salaries and have experience it's going to be difficult for anyone, including Carpenter to crack the lineup anytime soon.
I say again, Burnett. So I guess he is a bust because he doesn't show the coaches anything in practice right. Come up with something better that Terry.
by Cowboys81 on Jan 23, 2008 9:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Burnett isn't a bust
because he plays every week and is a significant part of the defense. He is the nickel/dime LB. Why would anybody be calling him a bust if he plays.
Carpenter hasn't played on defense in any significant capacity since he got here. He may be a bust or he may not be a bust, the odds are looking like bust right now.
We get that you like Carp and you want him to play. But quit trying to change the facts we see in front of us because of your crush on Carp. We have tons of factual basis for our argument.
The more you tell us that we don't know what we're talking about, the more that arrow turns back on you.
by Dave Halprin on Jan 23, 2008 9:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Grizz follow the thread
I was simply stating Burnett is NOT a bust. My point was many have said Carpenter is a bust because he can't crack the starting lineup. In four years Burnett is still a backup, but that doesn't make him a bust. In fact, he is one of the most valuable players we have.
I know you towing the company line on Carpenter Grizz, but from some of your comments your in agreement that we haven't seen enough of Carpenter to label him a bust.
by Cowboys81 on Jan 23, 2008 10:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree 81
Burnette only saw any real role in the defense this year...his 4th in the league.But everyone seems ready to ship carp off and label him as a bust after only 2.
by TrueBlue24 on Jan 23, 2008 10:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I am in agreement
that we haven't seen enough of Carp to know. I'm not towing any company line, I post what I think. What I do get tired of is people telling other people things like:
When Carpenter get's an opportunity to play and doesn't produce then talk to me about him being a bust. Until then, you have no factual basis for your argument.
Actually, they do have a basis, it's that two head coaches have chosen not to play Carpenter. You can make up any reason for that you want, but Occam's Razor says it's because they don't think he's good enough to play.
And:
I say again, Burnett. So I guess he is a bust because he doesn't show the coaches anything in practice right. Come up with something better that Terry.
What the heck are you talking about. Burnett spent a lot of years working through injury and still saw time on defense in his early years. Now he sees a lot of time. So I guess he showed the coaches a lot in practice. So far, Carpenter hasn't.
You keep relying on the argument that it's everybody else's fault that Carp doesn't play. It's the players in front of him, it's the big contracts, it's this and that. How about he just isn't good enough yet.
Here's my real point. I get sick and tired of people telling other people there wrong in no uncertain terms, they have no factual evidence, or other assertions when in fact it is you who is coming with and equally, or possibly, more flimsy of an argument.
I consider this proof by assertion.
by Dave Halprin on Jan 23, 2008 10:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
amen Dave.....and btw.....
No need to even bother discussing which one of these two are busts.....
BOTH will be traded this off season...Carp, Spears, and our 1st or 2nd round pick to Detroit for WR Roy Williams and DT Saun Rogers...which would be the ideal trade for both teams.
by BoyzRback07 on Jan 23, 2008 4:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and that's fine Boyz
If it can improve the makeup of this team. The problem I had was with the bust label that is so freely tossed around on by second year player.
by Cowboys81 on Jan 23, 2008 10:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Burnett
has also been here for four years compared to Carpenter's two so what's your point? Burnett has had his opportunties. He played second fiddle to Singleton for awhile. A strong case could be made for a former second round draft pick to be starting. For whatever reason because of injury or another he was never given a real chance. Instead, we sign Ayodele to play ILB.
Maybe your missing the point. I never said Burnett was a bust. The point is we should be giving Carpenter a little more time before we label him as such. Let's be honest, the kid has never been given a real opportunity to start.
I'm done with this subject. I guess any high draft picks that haven't cracked the starting lineup after a couple of seasons will be labeled a bust. God forbid Spencer doesn't start after next season what people will be saying.
by Cowboys81 on Jan 23, 2008 10:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
look at their cap numbers
We are paying Carpenter $2.4mm and Burnette $866k.
The downside of being a high pick isnt the pressure or the added scrutiny, its that if you are getting paid a lot and dont produce its tough to keep a roster spot. It makes it harder to get those extra years.
by 325424 on Jan 24, 2008 12:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think being a bust is determined
on where that person is selected in the draft. Case in point, if Spears was drafted as a 3rd or 4th rounder, nobody would be complaining at all about his lack being a playmaking DE. Everyone would be happy that we have a middle rounder starting at DE and doing a decent, solid job. However because we drafted him 20th overall in the 2005 only 9 spots down from Ware, fans expect much more from him as well they should. First round picks should eventually become playmaking starters at some point.
Carpenter is considered a bust by many because he is a first rounder who hasn't been able to get on the field. Burnett isn't considered a bust because he's only a 2nd rounder and he does play a lot in our nickel packages, unlike Carpenter. The fact that we have 4 entrenched starters at LB doesn't mean he shouldn't be able to play in some capacity if he was good enough.
Bottom line is that the coaches will always find a way to put their best players on the field, just like they did with Ratliff. The problem with Carp, and I've read this many times from guys like Eatman and JJT who have personally spoken with Cowboys coaches, is that Carp isn't physical enough to play ILB in a 3-4 defense. The Cowboys are trying to fit a round peg into a square hole with him and it isn't working. I just think he needs to find a new team where he can get a fresh start as a 4-3 OLB. As an ILB in a 3-4, he's simply not physical enough to see the field, bottom line.
by Terry on Jan 23, 2008 10:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
here you go, right from JJT's mouth
from DMN columnist JJT
Q. Do you see Bobby Carpenter being moved this off-season? Maybe back with Parcells and Ireland in Miami? Mark, Saginaw, MI
TAYLOR: I don’t think anyone would give you anything for Bobby Carpenter right now, certainly not Jeff Ireland. After all, he’s seen Carpenter play the last two years. He is now officially the worst first-round pick by the Cowboys since Danny Noonan in 1987. You can say what you want about Ebenezer Ekuban and David LaFleur, but they became starters. Carpenter isn’t even a key backup right now. The consensus is that he might be an effective player as an outside linebacker in the 4-3, where he could be protected by the defensive end. He’s not nearly physical enough to play inside linebacker in the 3-4.
by Terry on Jan 23, 2008 10:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ouch
We're going to have to give him significant attention in training camp. If he blossoms into a contributor, so much the better. But the Cowboys need some return from him even if it is just a lower round draft pick.
He seems like a decent guy in the wrong spot. Still, I hope to be eating crow about his abilities a year from now, but I highly doubt it.
by goodjobtimmyheresabluestar on Jan 23, 2008 1:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And this coming from a fellow OSU Buckeye...
JJT has proudly noted in the past that he's a graduate of The Ohio State University, so you know that he's not coming at it from a homer/fellow alumnus point of view either...
by kcbrett5 on Jan 23, 2008 4:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The last person anyone
should be in agreement with is JJT because he is way off base when it comes to talking about the cowboys. Thats a fact.
by Cowboys81 on Jan 23, 2008 10:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Both would be better served in a 4-3 scheme....
I've been watching Spears play for 3 years now, and I just think that his best position is the one-gap DT in a 4-3 scheme. He's got the size and strength to play inside, and he would have average to above average speed and quickness for a DT.
Can he make the conversion after working with Bill for 2 years and Wade for a year? That I don't know.
I think JJT is right on the money with his comments regarding Carpenter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but was it Carpenter that Parcells called a "kleenex" his rookie season due to his lack of strength? The kid just can't shed a block. If he wanted to get some reps, I would have expected him to be a difference maker on special teams. Instead we had the worst kick coverage we have had in recent years.
Would love to trade these two players, but the reality of the situation is that both are getting paid 1st round money and both are (arguably) playing out of position. With that said, I wouldn't expect anything higher than a 5th rounder. Do we throw in the towel on these two for a second day pick?
by Fargo Cowboys on Jan 23, 2008 9:30 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I agree Fargo
Carp simply isn't strong and physical enough to play the ILB position, its really that simple.
I think he's been given more than enough time and opportunties in practice and preseason games to crack the lineup but simply is not good enough.
by Terry on Jan 24, 2008 7:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
your right Fargo...4-3 is the place for them...
and Detroit and Cincy are in serious need at OLB and DT...could see both Carp and Spears packaged for Row Williams-WR or Chad Johnson-WR....which I would take in a heartbeat...
by BoyzRback07 on Jan 27, 2008 12:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
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