Are 'disciplinarians' proven winners, or overrated?

by Starred4Life on Oct 10, 2008 8:24 AM CDT Comment 35 comments

Boyz and I were having this debate a few posts ago, and I didn't want this discussion to get lost in the 'Pacman Shuffle,' becuase I think it's a really interesting topic, and one that is sure to stir-up a lot of interesting debate.

I'm of the opinion that disciplinarians make the best head coaches; I think there's overwhelming evidence to support that.

Part of that evidence--I believe--can be found when looking at past Super Bowl-winning head coaches.

Below is my list of Super Bowl-winning head coaches who--in my view--were disciplinarians.

I'd love to hear everyone's input, cuz I'm sure everyone's list/opinion will be different.

So tear it up, add to it, call it the dumbest thing you've ever seen--but at the very least, let's discuss!

My list of “disciplinarians” that have one Super Bowls:

V. Lombardi (2)
H. Stram
T. Landry (2)
D. Shula (2)
C. Noll (4)
B. Walsh (3)
J. Gibbs (3)
M. Ditka
B. Parcells (2)
Jimmy Johnson (2)
M. Holmgren
M. Shannahan (2)
B. Belicheck (3)
J. Gruden
B. Cowher
T. Coughlin

So in my opinion, that’s 31 Super Bowls wins out of 42 Super Bowls--that's the overwhelming evidence I spoke about above.

I’m sure yours will be much different, so let’s see it!

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Holmgren has two wins?

How Bout Them Cowboys!

by sprprsnmn on Oct 10, 2008 8:53 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Whoops, thanks for the correction

Make that 31 wins out of 42

by Starred4Life on Oct 10, 2008 9:02 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

the only I'll dispute is Coughlin

Solely because he had to drop the disciplinarian act to win the Super Bowl. Pretty much the only counterpoint to your argument, but even then, 30 out 42…

by AikmanNailedMySis on Oct 10, 2008 9:25 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I would still consider Coughlin a disciplinarian

He may have let-up slightly on the “anything less than 5 mins early is late” stuff, but in my opinion is still a hard-ass…

by Starred4Life on Oct 10, 2008 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dick Vermiel?

Might provide a counter to your argument. He was a total “so tight you could crack walnuts” guy when he took the Iggles to their loss against the Raiders, but became a softy with his trip with the Rams.

And I’d give Jimmy 3 SBowl wins. But that’s just me :-)

How Bout Them Cowboys!

by sprprsnmn on Oct 10, 2008 11:19 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I always heard Switzer was an ahole...

Maybe I was just young and he looked mean…

by AikmanNailedMySis on Oct 10, 2008 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jimmy Johnson

Probably the best coach Dallas has ever had…

Cowboys fan since 1978.. I was 3 years old

by Mullin on Oct 10, 2008 12:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Yea, except that Landry guy....

by mhuff13 on Oct 10, 2008 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Landry was the greatest Cowboys coach

and its not even a debate, Jimmy Johnson is a very distant second.

As a matter of fact, you can easily make the argument that Landry was even the greatest HC in the history of the game.

In Romo we Trust

by Terry on Oct 10, 2008 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Very, very, very distant

I’m young, only 31. Very little memories of Landry (more into baseball until my teens). But my dad was always a Cowboys fan.

Even with my limited memories of Landry, I still know my history. JJ can’t even sniff Landry’s legacy.

by mhuff13 on Oct 10, 2008 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's borderline sacreligious...bite your tongue young man....

Tom Landry IS the The Dallas Cowboys

A true diehard Cowboys fan since 1975.

"If you don’t take him off the field as a coach, he will just about die out there," Jerry Jones said. "That impacted my decision. It’s a Michael Irvin-type work ethic. That’s what we are talking about with Felix Jones."
- Owner/G.M of the Dallas Cowboys , Jerry Jones

by BoyzRback on Oct 10, 2008 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Amen

I don’t see any crying for Jerry’s World to be named Texas Stadium at Jimmy Johnson field.

Landry IS the Cowboys, just like Boyz said.

by mhuff13 on Oct 10, 2008 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I hope that was a joke, because it's not even close

Tom Landry built the Cowboys into an iconic franchise over 29 years, and is in the HOF.

JJ was a very good coach for 5 years in Dallas, and helped rebuild the franchise, but he didn’t repeat that success in Miami even given one of the best QB’s of all time.

T-New, shutting down WR's for Dallas since 2003

by APerfectStar on Oct 10, 2008 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Marino

Was a shell of his former self when Jimmy was coach… don’t even say that Marino was full strength

Cowboys fan since 1978.. I was 3 years old

by Mullin on Oct 11, 2008 7:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I didn't

But I wouldn’t exactly say he was a shell either.

T-New, shutting down WR's for Dallas since 2003

by APerfectStar on Oct 11, 2008 10:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Marino had torn his Achilles'

Before Jimmy got there and his lack of mobility was easily apparent

Cowboys fan since 1978.. I was 3 years old

by Mullin on Oct 12, 2008 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And before that he used to run a lot???

I’m not going to argue about it because I guess you were just kidding about JJ being a better coach than Tom Landry, so I will cease to debate the reasons JJ failed in Miami.

T-New, shutting down WR's for Dallas since 2003

by APerfectStar on Oct 12, 2008 10:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

LOL... wanted to see if you would all agree

Cowboys fan since 1978.. I was 3 years old

by Mullin on Oct 11, 2008 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

you can win with both types of coaches

and your evidence supports that. The bottom line is no matter what kind of coach you have, the players are the ones winning and losing games.

I’ve yet to see coaches throw passes, run, block, receive passes and tackle during the games. Of course Woody Hayes doesn’t count. ;)

In Romo we Trust

by Terry on Oct 10, 2008 3:51 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree

I think the numare more reflective of how coaches are and not necessarily how they should be. And based on listening to John Riggins, I don’t think Gibbs was that much of a discipliarian.

Lastly I’d say that the attitudes, expectations and salaries of players has changed considerably over this time period.

Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.

by dunkman on Oct 11, 2008 7:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

well put dunk.....just like in the NBA, you can't crack the whip on multi millionaires...they lay down on you...

A true diehard Cowboys fan since 1975.

by BoyzRback on Oct 11, 2008 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

holds true

same thing holds true in today’s work force. Generation Y has to be catered to..

"If you see me up in the mountains with a lion, I ain't lyin
don't help me, help the mountain lion"

by Wmillion on Oct 12, 2008 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1 Terry.....simply said, and my entire theory on the subject..........

You all wanna replace “Cream Puff” Wade…….but I say…With who ?????

The is no coach available in this country that is more qualified, experienced, or has this foolish “bad ass” attribute that you seek……so why even discuss this ?….For the people who think Jason Garrett is the hier appearant to Wade, Is Jason a bad ass now ???….I don’t think so…….And a case can be made to counter this post by saying 95% of those coaches listed are no longer even coaching anymore, and today’s game doesn’t support such a dictator type regime, and the few that are still involved in coaching, aren’t nessessarily “disiplanarian” boot camp style coaches…..Denver and Seattle are disiplined ? ….sure doesn’t show in their play…just let Wade coach already….It’s kinda funny people are looking to oust a coach with a 17-5 record….which would put him #1 among Tom Landry, Jimmy Johnson, Barry Switzer, Chan Gailey, Dave Campo, Bill Parcells in career records in their first 22 games coached in Dallas…..Give the man his due already. If he fails to win a playoff game this year, THEN your justified to question his abilities….

A true diehard Cowboys fan since 1975.

by BoyzRback on Oct 10, 2008 4:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Bill Cowher

by Starred4Life on Oct 10, 2008 8:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And just for the record

I don’t think Garrett will be a good HC

by Starred4Life on Oct 10, 2008 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And do you realize I set that all up, just so you can say Bill Cowher....

A man that I couldn’t see coming here without any authority on personel, has no ties to Jerry, or the NFC, and is quite content with his current status, and his ability to spend time with his family…

for the record, I would welcome him IF Wade fails to delever, and he was strickly here to coach…but he’s a long shot ever to land here…I say he stays retired.

A true diehard Cowboys fan since 1975.

by BoyzRback on Oct 10, 2008 9:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

You set all that up just to say, "I would welcome him if Wade fails..."???

Why didn’t you just say that? Wouldn’t that’ve been easier than tying-up a long-winded 10-line response?

And it still would’ve looked smart, too!

by Starred4Life on Oct 11, 2008 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think a better question to ask

Is what kind of coaches were leading the teams that lost. If the losing teams were led by “disciplinarian” coaches, then what happens to your theory? I think a lot of it is based on old school philosophy’s. There weren’t many easy going coaches for a long time, so you can’t say that a disciplinarian was better than an easy going coach because there is no comparison. You would have to just look at it in the recent past, with easy going coaches becoming more common lately for an accurate comparison, say within the last 10-15 years.

"So you can’t stiff arm at all? What about the throat?"- Marion "Barbarian" Barber

by DC_fan on Oct 11, 2008 8:34 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

+1 DC.....he "get's it"

A true diehard Cowboys fan since 1975.

by BoyzRback on Oct 11, 2008 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Personally, I wouldn't take too much away from who they beat

But that’s only because I don’t completely buy into the “you’re only good if you win SBs” train of thought.

Just too many uncontrollable variables that directly affect the game to take too much away from it.

But I do think you have to be good to get there, and I only used the above criteria to see if one ‘type’ of coach gets there more than others.

So IMO, it would be interesting to see who they beat if only to see what type of coaches consistently get there.

To your “you would have to look at it in in the recent past” posit…can we not do so by looking at the last 10-15 SB winners?

The list (starting w/ SB 28):

Jimmy Johnson
Mike Holmgren
Mike Shanahan (2)
Bill Belichick (3)
Jon Gruden
Bill Cowher
Tom Coughlin

By my count, that’s 10 out of 15.

Is that what you were looking for?

by Starred4Life on Oct 12, 2008 8:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wasn't arguing that disciplinarians aren't better coaches

I was just throwing out there that it would be easier to compare the two types of coaches if you looked at situations where the 2 types coached against each other in the big game. Personally, I think that it takes a bit of both to be a successful coach.

"So you can’t stiff arm at all? What about the throat?"- Marion "Barbarian" Barber

by DC_fan on Oct 12, 2008 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Disciplinarians win SBs

When you have such over whelming numbers winning the game then only a moron would try and argue other wise.

The simpler question: when has an easier coach BEATEN a disciplinarian coach in the SB? How often?

by burmafrd1944 on Oct 11, 2008 10:06 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

THough I guess you could say switzer

Though a lot of people maintain the team did it not him.

by burmafrd1944 on Oct 11, 2008 10:08 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Walsh, Gibbs

I dont think I would put Bill Walsh in the disciplinarian category. It’s not like he was a pushover or anything, but he was very much a players coach.

He meant business, but he wasnt jumping down guys throats.

I would say the same about Gibbs.

by Carl Shelton (GloryDayz88) on Oct 11, 2008 7:10 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs