mckelvin, the pats & these trying times
by eMBe3 on Feb 7, 2008 6:10 AM CST
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PrintI have a tendency to "ramble" when i write so please bear with me.. Being a dallas fan in NY has its priveleges and its pitfalls. Theres more espn coverage (on average) for my team than that of the state i live in. all my friends are giants fans. so when we win i reap the benefits. it was great all year. but i was in a bar on jan 13th... and walked out in shame.
New York also has this other rival called Boston. So when the SB came down to the giants n the pats i was torn. i hate them both for different reasons. not only did the pats beat us in the regular season, but they were the evil empire that HAD to fall. and they did. but it seems like they may do more damage to the boys than they already have.
any way, around this time of year, the mock drafts start comin out. im the type who reads them furiously, then gets his heart set on a few possible scenarios.. one of them was leodis mckelvin and felix jones at 22 and 28.
IDK if any1 else heard about this. its been kept relatively quiet, but a pats db got caught with a half pound of marijuana after the superbowl. i dont smoke but i know a thing or two.. thats a lot. a whoole lot for 1 person. he must have been hurtin inside after that loss.
Then i turned on the tv today n saw a new mock draft of the top 10 picks that had New england taking mckelvin at 7 (wit the pick they don't deserve). this kinda shook my view on things. if the pats can easily take mckelvin, whats to say jenkins'll even be on the board by 22.. or talib? there's a high possibility they won't..
Corner is an interesting position. A lot of times a rookie wont blossom in the NFL the way he was projected to. We need a playmaker, and while it seems that there are a few in this draft, we'll be picking late in the round and we're not the only team that'll have a need at CB.. There are a number of proven CB's that will hit the FA market. Playmakers.. Do we go for one of them? I think so.. Picking up a proven CB before the draft would give us so much flexibility come draft day JJ could squeeze into a travel trunk.
Look at the FA's we picked up last year.. Hamlin.. Davis.. they played great for us. and we need a corner who won't constantly give up the 5-10 yard button hook. it probably doesnt have to be a huge signing like asomugha or samuels (while 1 of them would be nice), just a solid cb who can satisfy our need while a rookie can work his way in and learn the subtle nuances of the NFL without the pressures of the world on his shoulders.
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I'm hoping the Cowboys go after DRC if McKelvin is gone that early. He really showed me a lot in the Senior and looks to be an incredible athlete like his cousin, Antonio. We messed up by drafting Carp over him in 2006, hopefully we get it right this time.
I'll take Jones, Stewart or Mendenhall with our other 1st rounder, whoever is available at that point.
ooo i forgot about cromartie
i didnt watch the senior bowl so i didnt see him there.. and i didnt know much about him to begin with but if hes as good as i've heard then bring him on.
There's a plethora of guys I'd be happy with
Which is why although I have my personal faves (McK, Reggie Smith, Jenkins, DRC) I'm not too worried about who we'll end up taking. There will be quality at the tail end of the first round no matter what.
nice.. yea it seems like this years draft is
alot deeper with good CB's than i thought. a couple of these names completely slipped my mind.
I really doubt we'll pick up a FA corner
We have our own FA's to worry about and don't forget about that little thing we call the "cap". The corners in FA that are worth picking up will have an asking price that's far beyond what we can (read that should) spend. The only way I can see us doing this is if somehow we don't get Hamlin signed, Henry moves to FS and leaves a void in our #2 corner spot, though I don't see this scenario happening either.
The only FA worth signing in my book is Nnamdi Asomugha but it turns out he's going to be franchised. I don't particularly like Asante Samuel. I think a lot of his ability comes from a well devised defense. Marcus Trufant has never caught my eye at all until this year which I'll have to admit started with Kitna's comparison of him to T.New. He did have a fantastic year though.
On top of all that, our need for corner is actually a need for a 3rd corner. Any one of those FA's would be an extremely expensive 3rd corner indeed.
We will take the best corner available in the draft with our 1a. We will look to FA for a WR. A running back with 1b. To me this would be an ideal situation though you can never count on anything when it comes to the draft. So much can happen it's almost stupid to even think about at all. We can all dream though!
I'd be shocked if Asomugha isn't franchised
and I agree that Samuel is overrated. The problem with signing a FA corner is that most of them will want starter money and we're only looking for a good nickel back, not a starter at this time. The FA CBs who aren't elite are really no better than Reeves anyway.
Its better to draft a CB and let him evetually take over for Henry.
Samuel is good...
But he'll probably want to be paid like Champ. At least more than Clements got last year. And for that much, you better be getting Champ in his prime.
by GhettoBear04 on Feb 7, 2008 10:49 PM CST up reply actions
Disagree
there are a couple of FA CB's that will not cost a whole lot and would be good replacements for Reeves. Drayton Florence is probably the logical choice since Wade coached him in San Diego and won't cost much. Randal Gay from NE is another CB that would be an upgrade over Reeves. Drafting a CB is an option, but only for future considerations. He's not coming in his first year and doing much, not on this defense. We need a starting caliber CB to come in and play the slot or the outside right away which is why a FA CB makes the most sense.
History shows we haven't done a good job picking 20th on up. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Jerry packages both #1's just to move up in the top 10 to get a player he really wants and I'm not talking Mcfadden. History has shown that we have picked players in the top 12 that have worked out i.e.., Ware, Newman....Roy.....ok, we missed there...lol
by Cowboys81 on Feb 7, 2008 10:00 AM CST up reply actions
rookie CBs have proven their worth
in their first year historically. Aaron Ross really helped out the GMen this season so there isn't any reason to believe a rookie CB couldn't come in and help us as a 3rd CB.
I personally think Florence will go to a team where he has a shot at starting and there's no way he beats out either Henry or Newman. I personally don't think he's much better than Reeves and I know Gay isn't better than Reeves.
Gotta agree about Florence...
seems like opposing teams were looking for him just like they look for Reeves in our secondary.
Some rookies can make an impact immediately while others take longer to adjust to the speed of the game. Aaron Ross played very well and I think the right guy could come in and slide right into that 3rd CB position.
Neither of those CB's
We don't need a replacement, we need an upgrade. Someone who can come in an make a significant difference. I'll bet we can take a CB as far as the early in the 3rd round that can match those guys worth. Bleh. . .
Never Enough...
The year was 2002, and the Eagles, who many people thought had one of the best secondaries in the game drafted the following players with their first three picks....
Rnd Ovrl Name Pos. School
1 26 Lito Sheppard CB Florida
2 58 Michael M. Lewis SS Colorado
2 59 Sheldon Brown CB South Carolina
Nobody could believe they spent their top three picks on DB's with names like Brian Dawkins, Bobby Taylor, Troy Vincent and Al Harris already on their roster. In fact Vincent, Taylor and Dawkins were coming off Pro-Bowl seasons!
Well, by 2004 all three draft picks were starting for the Eagles and Sheppard and Lewis were Pro Bowlers.
With Henry quickly nearing the end of his career as a CB in this league and Newman's contract status complicated with the fact that he's going to be 30 when the season starts, in my mind we simply can't draft enough young talent at the CB position. In fact I would have no issues at all with the Cowboys taking both McKelvin and Cromartie if they are (although unlikely) available late in round 1. This is a position that we have to address, as I'm rearlly growing tired of watching opponents exploit the likes of Lance Frazier and Jacque Reeves. If these rookies can help in 2008, great, but more than anything this is a position that needs to be addressed now to sustain our level of play in the future.
And, like others, I'm not even going to comment on Roy's contributions (or lack thereof) to our secondary. Does anyone else find it remarkable that Roy did not have a single sack or even a tackle for a loss in 2007?
by Fargo Cowboys on Feb 7, 2008 1:25 PM CST reply actions
wow Fargo...At least one person makes sense here.
I couldn't have written it any better....I too am in totally agreement that we should draft at least 2 CB's within the first 3 rounds..1 in the first, and our second rounder as well..This is the way you fix a weakness at a position...The fact that there is no other position weaknesses that really need major attention...We focus solely on shoring up or secondary with top noth depth and eventual replacements for Newman and Henry...RIGHT NOW....
If you could assure me we can get McKelvin and DRC in the first round...I'd be all for it....But I honestly don't think that is going to happen...I feel both of those corners will be gone by pick 17 to the Cardinals....
I also don't think we're going to resign both Flozell and Hamlin...I believe both will be offered more to play elsewhere...Not like I don't want either....but we must realize....neither is on our roster right now.If we don't get Flo to agree to a contract, I'd like to get one more year of service out of him....So we franchise him. Some say he won't play as hard, he'll be upset if we place a tag on him..that holds no truth....look at Asante Samuels and Lance Briggs, and others that were franchised this past year...They're all still on the Pro Bowl roster and did quite well. Flo would be getting a hefty '08 salary $7.45 million..You think he's gonna dog it on us ???? I don't think so....I feel he'll have a tremendous year knowing he can still cash in on one more big payday at the end of next season.
Hamlin, If he wants to resign for about 4.5-5 mil a year....We get him too...That's the best case scenario.
The worst case scenario is that both are gone... ?? Then what ?..well...I think we let Doug Free take over at LT, or sign a lesser know Tackle via FA....the LT from Carolina , and a few other ones are out there...But I'd still say we give the job to Free...He doesn't suck...I'll put it like that....He won't be an All Pro....yet...but he won't suck...Romo is mobile enough, Garrett can roll out to the right side, can leave in a TE, Barber can chip block...I'm not too worried. If Flo won't sign before franchise date.....screw 'em....have him pull a Larry Allen and fade into anonamosity. If we don't sign Flo.....that gives us a surplus of 7-8 million/year to spend on another area.
So I hedge my bet and take the top FA corner, Nnamdi Asomugha, at 10-11 million per. and hope one of those two stud rookie CB's is available to us at our pick. I'd still prefer we get Felix Jones over either one of those CB's...as Jones would be an immediate difference maker.
We can get better, much better by getting younger...I'd like to be rid of all our 30+ guys by start of '2010 season...except TO....of course. Ferguson should be traded on draft day to Miami for one of their 2nds or a 3rd rounder, which we can pair with one our first rounders to move up in the order. top 16 maybe ? We trade away Carpenter and Spears to Detroit (Williams and Rodgers)
or Cincy ( C. Johnson).
Those two trades would get us younger and better.
I've ranted on long enough...that's my take on things.
by BoyzRback07 on Feb 7, 2008 4:01 PM CST up reply actions
yeah ok....and you heard this where ?
until I see it....I'm keeping hope. Just like we are franchising Flozell ?
Oakland is quite old, they have quite a few big contracts, they aren't in good cap situation. and still have a top 5 pick to sign as well...It is conceivable they may not tag him...If we need to trade our number one this year and next years number one......we do it. And no....this wouldn't be similar to the Galloway trade either, before you even go there...We sucked then, and spending that much on a decent receiver wasn't going to pay dividends...Obtaining the BEST pure cover corner in the entire league is quite worthy of two very late first round picks....on a team that couldn't draft a player in either one of these two drafts that will even start for us. Period..
..Asomugha is very very much worth the 28th pick this year, and next years 32nd pick......
by BoyzRback07 on Feb 7, 2008 6:14 PM CST up reply actions
I agree
he's the man, but I promise you he will be franchised or re-signed. Even if he was available do you really think we can afford 3 top flight corners with our current situation? I'm on board if we can, I really like Nnamdi.
Thats correct Sub
Nnamdi is a stud of a CB and will be franchised. They were just talking about this the other day. He won't hit FA, count on it. He would be a close second behind Samuels as the top CB in FA. Regardless, he woud cost a boat load and were not going to spend that kind of change on a first tier FA CB.
by Cowboys81 on Feb 7, 2008 11:09 PM CST up reply actions
Adam Shefter of NFL Network
reported yesterday Oakland will franchise Nnamdi. So there you have it.
by Cowboys81 on Feb 8, 2008 12:38 PM CST up reply actions
Actually, the DMN reports
that it will cost us $9 mil to franchise Flo, since he made $7.5 million this year, it will cost us 120% of that salary to franchise him. Here's the link
I wouldnt franchise him
if he doesnt accept a reasonable offer. I would let him walk. There are other capable lineman on this team ready to step in. We have to see what we have in these guys. Money would be better spent on Hamlin and FA's.
by Cowboys81 on Feb 9, 2008 12:57 AM CST up reply actions
I agree....Let him go...
I wouldn't pay 9 million for Flo...If he doesn't take a reasonable offer, Let Doug Free get his feet wet. There is sure to be some growing pains...but the only way you get better is to go into battle and learn from your mistakes.. Plus he only cost about 400,000 as opposed to 9 mil...
by BoyzRback07 on Feb 9, 2008 9:33 AM CST up reply actions
at the expense of Romo?
I certainly hope Jones values his franchise qb more than that.
Mckelvin won't be
there when we pick and Cromartie is overrated guys. He isn't the Cromartie that's playing in SD. People are falling in love with the name before the player. We are not taking two first round CB's that absurd. We will be lucky to draft one first round CB. Jerry will more than likely draft a RB with one of the first rounders and trade the second for a player like Roy Williams or trade down the pick. I keep saying this group of rookie CBs is not very good, way overrated to put it mildly and some will be over drafted because of their combine workouts. There is great value in the later rounds for CBs, not the first where we will be picking. The last thing we need is to reach on a CB that will not come in here and play very much. Forget the comparision with Aaron Ross. He struggled for much of this year.
Wade is not going to plug a first year rookie CB in this defense. You have to keep in mind that in our defense whoever we get they need to play opposite of Henry in a three wide receiver set because, if you remember Newman is normally the slot CB, unlike Aaron Ross who plays exclusively in the slot in the Giants defene. So in essence whoever comes here has to be capable of stepping in right away like a starter.
Drayton Florence is an upgrade over Reeves and has the Wade connection. He played very well the game against NE and I beilive he had an INT.
by Cowboys81 on Feb 7, 2008 11:06 PM CST up reply actions
everyone should realize that a great pass rush
makes a secondary look much better. Look at the GMen, guys like Webster, Ross and Madison didn't all of sudden become good corners over night heading into the playoffs, their down linemen stepped up their pressure in a big way and made them look better in coverage. If the opposing QB is getting hit and running for his life, WRs aren't going to have the time to get open, even against guys like Reeves.
Food for thought.
+1 to both Fargo and Terry
I'm all for gaining depth, depth, depth in the secondary. The more the better. Those guys are very valuable and you can put a lot of them on the field at the same time. Especially in this scheme, you can only have one Defensive Tackle, 2 Defensive Ends, etc. You can have up to four cornerbacks and two safeties.
And if you can get pressure on the QB, all the better. He has far less opportunities to capitalize on any mistakes your guys may make. If we can get our defensive line to force more pressure than last season and get similar contributions from the linebackers, we should be in as good a shape as anyone. Especially with new defensive coaches doing their collective things.
Its a synergy
Shutdown CBs give the DL more time to get to the QB.
The DL putting pressure on the QB means the CBs don't have to cover as long.
The Cowboys pass rush is adequate, and improved as the year progressed. The CBs didn't hold up their part of the equation.
C'mon, Terry....
...point taken, but your reference to the pass rush is no longer valid. Before 2007 we got to the QB about as often as often as Brittany Spears went to church. That wasn't the case in '07. I thought our pass rush made remarkable strides. Yeah, there's still room to improvement, but we showed that we can get to the QB with the best of them.
Most teams are going to have a fall-off of talent when you get to the nickel and dime corners. It's frustrating to watch Reeves, but even more frustrating that we would "help" Reeves by putting Roy Williams over the top.
I guess I'm more worried about 2009 and beyond. And with that, having a young corner or two that can contribute on a part-time basis now is only going to improve our depth and coverage in those nickel and dime situations in 2008.
by Fargo Cowboys on Feb 7, 2008 2:25 PM CST up reply actions
yes, but even though we improved, like you said
there is still room for improvement. There were many times we couldn't get to the opposing QBs and those are the times that guys like Reeves and Henry got beat.
All I'm saying if our pressure improves, which hopefully it will, our DBs will look much better at covering as a result. The Giants in the playoffs are absolute proof of that.
Not many teams are going to employ...
three pro bowl caliber DE's like Osi, Tuck and Strahan. The Giants were the best in the league in terms of QB sacks and their pressure proved to nuetralize the great passing attacks of the Cowboys, Packers and Patriots.
We also can't forget that Romo & Co. lit the G-Men up like a Christmas Tree in the first two meetings, when we were able to control the Giants pass rush.
You simply can't get to the QB on every play, and when you don't get there, you better have guys that can cover. Webster and Ross, two very young and inexperienced corners, made remarkable strides late in the season and were just as important in the Giants success.
by Fargo Cowboys on Feb 7, 2008 3:42 PM CST up reply actions
We fix the pass rush by trading Spears and Fergie
Those guys are Bill Parcells 3-4 guys...We need Wade type Lineman....Unlike some of you people..I am very very high on Shaun Rodgers..A NT that can move mountains...Has legit pass rushing skills...In fact, Rodgers had more sacks this year (8) playing out of shape and coming off injuries, than Fergie and Spears have in their entire Cowboys careers...I believe this guy can be built back into shape, and we'd still have Tank Johnson to spell him in rotation.Then we would move J Ratliff to the outside, opposite Canty, and form the best, or one of the best 3-4 down lineman sets in the league. And they'd all be under 28 years old...Add Ware and Spencer on the outsides...then bam...we'll lead the league in D.... I assure you...
I can see us trading Ellis as well this year...while he is fresh off a pro bowl season...get a late first, early second for him...more leverage to move up in the first round. for us.
by BoyzRback07 on Feb 7, 2008 4:17 PM CST up reply actions
BRB07
Tasty scenario you concoct with an in-shape Shaun Rodgers, Canty and Rat. Our backups would be excellent as well.
However, how do you figure we can get a late 1 or a 2 for Greg Ellis? Turn the tables. Would you give up a 1 or a 2 for a guy nearing the end of his career with a serious injury history and a track record of whining? Not a chance we get anything more than a fouth for Ellis and I would be quite surprised at that. He has more value on our squad than as trade bait.
I always enjoy your posts even if I don't always agree. Good humor content.
by Cowboy Louie on Feb 7, 2008 6:17 PM CST up reply actions
well, thanks Louie ...but..
Ok, ok, ok......A late first might of been a 'lil stretch...But 32 years old isn't exactly the twilight of his career. He can easily go another 4-5 years, albeit as more of a pass rushing specialist, and who has a surplus of those ?, or wouldn't take a flyer on a guy coming off a career best season, and my selection as 2007 Cowboys Defensive Player of the Year. Take that ?..A known comodity, or spend a 2nd or 3rd round draft choice on an undersized college DE, and try to convert him to a 3-4 OLB,which is never a given....There are several teams running 3-4 defenses that are only a few good veteran players away from really contending..and Ellis can easily transition back to a 4-3 as well...I think alot of people on here are underestimating his worth and value to other teams. As well as the worthiness of Carpenter and Spears.
To say we'd be lucky to even garner a 4th round pick is way off....New England can easily throw a 3rd rounder at us....move Vrabel back inside, and become a very potent LB group...Baltimore i'm sure would have interest...Pittsburgh as well...He showed this year he is far from washed up...He has two more years on an extremely affordable contract for playoff teams to absorb.
Ummm..12.5 sacks at 3-4 OLB position...all while missing 3 games and still gettin' through the kinks and lingering pain that must have existed. Yeah...I'd give up a 2nd or 3rd for that production ..Hard to believe I'm the only one that thinks that way...
by BoyzRback07 on Feb 7, 2008 7:00 PM CST up reply actions
I have to agree with Louie
You may be able to squeeze a 4th out of somebody, but you won't get anything above that. Anyway, why trade him, he's getting work done for us.
I totally agree Grizz
Ellis is still very productive and I don't think Spencer will be quite be ready yet next season.
Grizz...that was more of a hypothetical....
From previous grumbles of him being wanted by the Pats...I'd sure love to keep Ellis....especially at the price we're paying him...Of course with his snifflin' all the time about not being appreciated and disrespected cuz we drafted Spencer...I can see him crying for a trade out of here.....alas Chad Johnson.
by BoyzRback07 on Feb 7, 2008 11:44 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, I get tired of Ellis'
offseason grumblings, too. I wish he would just stop and play ball.
by Dave Halprin on Feb 8, 2008 12:01 AM CST up reply actions
ummm...no Terry....all of them are good...
and I do believe all of them were picked within the top 50 players in the year they were drafted....Webster, Ross, and Madison are all much better than Reeves....not even in the same ballpark.
by BoyzRback07 on Feb 7, 2008 4:06 PM CST up reply actions
yeah, they looked really good getting toasted by
T.O. when their pass rush was getting to Romo in the regular season games.
They are very good tackling and support CBs but weaker in coverage.
What really makes me so excited
Is the fact that our stellar pass rush comes from linebackers, not the position of convention.
If we had quality pass-rushing from our Ends, we would be better than the Giants. And I don't think that I'm going on a limb with that statement-nobody gets as much pressure from two guys like we do, much less two linebackers. Which is why I'd be all for trading one of our DEs (preferably Spears) to Big Bill and picking up a different kind of End.
Never goi
Here's a good trivia question (and I don't have the answer to it)...What is the most sacks recorded in one single season by a DE playing as a true 3-4 DE?
Lois Castillo had 7 in '06 in Wade's system. That number would probably be tough to beat. SD led the league in sacks that year. The point is that the pressure is going to come from the OLB, as that is how the defense is designed. Merriman and Phillips combined for 28.5 in '06. I think Ware and Ellis combined for about 25.5 this season, so really not too far behind for a team in Wade's system for just one season.
Obviously the popular vote is that J-Rat at DE would be a (pass rushing) upgrade over Spears. With that said, I think if you put Hatcher and J-Rat at DE you probably are going get two better pass rushing DE's in the 3-4, without your rush defense dropping off significantly.
by Fargo Cowboys on Feb 7, 2008 4:04 PM CST up reply actions
I don't buy that
Merriman and Phillips are great natural rushers; they've done it with or without Wade. Canty and Spears aren't; they've been the same for Tuna. I think that this is more about players than schemes.
Take a look at Seattle, for instance. Their top two rushers are Pat Kerney (A Defensive End) and Julian Peterson (An outside linebacker). It can be done. We have a singular opportunity here with this great quality at linebacker, we need to take advantage of it before Ellis succumbs to being human.
I agree on Spears
but not Canty, he has the skills and did some good work in disrupting the passer this year. He didn't rack up the sacks, but made plays in the backfield. Something Spears has never done.
I agree that Canty can get penetration
But he doesn't get to the QB often enough, and for that matter doesn't get close with enough regularity for me to name that as a strength for him.
Don't get me wrong, I really like CC. But I don't see him as a threat to the opposing team's passing game. So if we can get something for Spears (I'd settle for a late 2nd or high third-maybe San Diego's pick via Miami?)I would love to draft a guy like Calais Campbell or pick up Jared Allen on the minute chance that he's not franchised or re-signed.
Jared Allan is a force....
but I assure you, He will be franchised.
by BoyzRback07 on Feb 7, 2008 11:46 PM CST up reply actions
Canty will turn out to be a force
He's improved each season. The guy is so tall and with his wingspan he can bat down passes at the LOS besides getting pressure on the QB.
by APerfectStar on Feb 8, 2008 12:37 AM CST up reply actions
Jared Allen doesn't fit...
Allen is way too small to play DE in a 3-4. He and guys like Aaron Kampman of GB would get eaten alive in our system.
Allen is a good player when he's sober, but he would have to learn how to play standing up, and that's never going to happen. Why would a 4-3 DE that leads the league in sacks want to try his hand at OLB in a 3-4? Would never happen. The guy is going to get paid well for what he's accomplished to date as a 4-3 DE.
by Fargo Cowboys on Feb 8, 2008 6:49 AM CST up reply actions
ummm...Is Greg Ellis better than Jared Allan ?
That's a loud NO WAY...IF a 32 year old 4-3 DE like Ellis can turn it around in less than one season and become a Pro Bowl OLB in a 3-4.....what in the world makes you think a far more superior player at age 25 couldn't play and make the easier transition to OLB ?
He would a force as an outside pass rushing LB for this defense, and we do employ a version of the 4-3 on several occasions....He is.....Better than Ellis, better than Spencer....He will be franchised so this talk doesn't even matter...He was born in Dallas...btw....Come on home with welcomed arms..
by BoyzRback07 on Feb 8, 2008 7:13 AM CST up reply actions
If you were one of the best 4-3 DE's ....
...in the NFL, would you sign with a team that runs a 3-4 and try to make the switch to a 3-4 OLB? Not a chance.
The Greg Ellis situation was completely different because the team he was under contract with made the change. You are never going to see a top tier player make a position change as a free agent. First that team isn't going to pay for a player unproven at the position, and second that player isn't going to risk his reputation and marketability on trying to learn and excel at the new position.
Allen will either re-sign with the Chiefs, be franchised, or sign with another 4-3 team. This I will guarantee. Not even sure why I'm risking the future risk of developing carpal tunnel from discussing this topic.
by Fargo Cowboys on Feb 9, 2008 1:41 PM CST up reply actions
lol....Fargo...
I know he isn't coming to Dallas...I just said he is a force, and i'd love to have him. Heck, I'd even be willing to go back to a 4-3 to fit him in.
Ware,Canty,Ratliff,Allen would make one hell of a front 4.
Although I still contend he would be able to transition to a 3-4 OLB if he wanted to.
by BoyzRback07 on Feb 9, 2008 4:38 PM CST up reply actions
Allen is not too small
He is 6'6 270 pounds which is the exact same size as Ellis. Allen is also 25 years old compared to Ellis who will be 33 at the start of the season. I think Allen would do excellent in our 3-4 system. That said, we have Spencer and would have no reason to acquire Allen. I predict Spencer will start over Ellis this season. Ellis is on his last leg here.
by Cowboys81 on Feb 8, 2008 12:29 PM CST up reply actions
Fargo meant he's too samll as a 3-4 DE
He could switch to OLB if he has the athletic ability but there is always a risk he won't make the transition, as Ellis feared when Parcells wanted him to convert.
yes and I said
that's incorrect because Ellis was a 4-3 DE before moving to a 3-4 OLB. They are both the same size and his point was Allen is too small to play 3-4 OLB.
by Cowboys81 on Feb 8, 2008 1:29 PM CST up reply actions
I thought he meant playing
a 3-4 OLB in our scheme. If he meant 3-4 DE than I agree.
by Cowboys81 on Feb 9, 2008 12:59 AM CST up reply actions
Also, Wade has already declared Ellis the starter
for 2008 so unless Ellis gets hurt in camp, he'll be the starter next season. Spencer will more than likely start in 2009 if he progresses as planned.
I don't care what Wade said
off course he said that, but traning camp is a different story and that's when Spencer will over take Ellis as the starter. Ellis doesn't have anything cemented just because he was the starter last season.
by Cowboys81 on Feb 8, 2008 1:31 PM CST up reply actions
yeah, Wade's only the head coach
what the heck does he know, I'm sure you know much more than Wade and the coaching staff about the Cowboys players.
You were wrong last year when you said Ellis wasn't going to start and remain the starter, and I get the feeling you'll be batting 2 for 2 on this one as well.
anything can change
six months from now, that's the point. Wade is pitching the company line right now, but that can change if Spencer blows past Ellis in training camp. It's going to happen Terry just be prepared when it does and it will happen this season. Spencer is the future and Ellis is probably in his last season. He will be a UFA in 2009.
by Cowboys81 on Feb 9, 2008 1:02 AM CST up reply actions
How did that Juluis Jones
prediction work out for you?
by Cowboys81 on Feb 9, 2008 1:03 AM CST up reply actions
I don't know what prediction you're taling about
the only thing I said about Jones was that he should remain the starter this season and thats exactly what happened.
You simply can't compare....
players in a 3-4 and players in a 4-3....it's apples and oranges.
Phillips and Merriman are now working with Ted Cotrell, who was a disciple of Wade's from Buffalo. Cotrell was brought into SD so their young defensive players wouldn't have to start over by learning a new system.
You are not going to get much pressure from a 290lb DE playing in a 3-4. Even when they are disruptive, they often times lack the speed to close and/or chase down the QB for a sack. I'm not saying they can't be a force, but great pass rushing DE's in a 3-4 system are not the norm.
Greg Ellis is not going to be traded, and certainly not for a first day draft pick. I would be very surprised if there was even a team inquiring about him. The stat sheet might tell you that he had a great season, but his success also had a lot to do with the system. We lose some versatility with him in the line-up, but he's still a valuable player for us that opponents have to account for in passing situations.
Shaun Rodgers is not a consideration. He's not worth the risk, as he lacks the discipline necessary to play the middle of a 3-4. With Fergy, Tank and J-Rat, the DT position is a strength for the Cowboys.
by Fargo Cowboys on Feb 7, 2008 9:45 PM CST up reply actions
+1
Fergie will be back strong next year. If Rodgers was any good, a weak defensive team like DET wouldn't let him get away. They obviously don't think he's worth the price he wants. I wouldn't mind the Boys taking a NT in the draft, like Red Bryant from Tx A&M for example.
by APerfectStar on Feb 8, 2008 12:45 AM CST up reply actions
I disagree Tom....
Simply put.....Shaun Rodgers is Better than Fergie, Better than Tank, Better than Red Bryant....heck...I'll say he is better than anyone on our d line...You guys have to realize he sustained some serious injuries, and I'd have to say he didn't devote himself to fully rehabbing these injuries..He is overweight, with that comes poor stamina....but to question his talent..I guess you never seen him play prior to injury.
Do you realize how hard it is to work hard on rehabbing injuries ? I have torn my knee (mcl), compound fracture in my ankle, broken hand, fingers,fractured vertabrae in my lower lumbar, and cervicle spine....I know injuries..It is extremely hard to overcome, and with no motivation...it makes it that much harder.
And if I was playing for a perrenial losing franchise...my motivation would be questioned as well....He hasn't played for a winning team since he joined the league...Call him lazy all you want...But I think trading him to a winning team, may just do the trick to jumpstart his rehab, devote himself to an off season conditioning program with the great trainers we have here...He would be the best possible NT we could ever imagine.
If he got into shape and down to about 320lbs....I'd clearly say he is the best interior lineman in the league..Detroit just can't get him to push himself...they pay him alot of money, they also have their other DT that makes alot....They aren't looking to trade him cuz he sucks....they are looking to trade him cuz he is costing them too much at a position of strength, and have far bigger areas they need to address...LB,CB,DE...
Granted...He's not ideal for teams that have no depth to rotate in at the position, He can and will be able to carry the load....but he's better served by gradually building his health back while splitting time with Tank.... we are a team that has a good rotation and able to spell him more than most teams.
Once again....He had more sacks this year than Ratliff,Canty,Spears,Hatcher,Bowen,Fergie combined. Hello ..? not bad for some fat, out of shape slob...eh ?
And as far as the price he wants ????? He has 3 years remaining on a decent contract that pays him about the same money as Fergie....A 34 year old Fergie coming off season long surgery, or a 28 year old Pro Bowl NT that actually offers sack production from the interior ??????
That is a no brainer my friend.
...He has no added signing bonus to worry about...I think it would be a steal if we got this guy...If he somehow doesn't work out, we cut him and it cost nothing to our cap.....easy as that.
by BoyzRback07 on Feb 8, 2008 7:49 AM CST up reply actions
Those are some big if's
If he's past his injuries and in shape, if he's willing to sign for a reasonable price, if he can play NT (his production was on a team that plays a base 4-3).
But, I bet he wants big money, and I think it's risky at a position where the Boys don't need to risk it.
Yes, I've seen him play prior to injury. He can dominate in spurts, but then he takes himself out for a breather when he feels like it. I'd rather have a guy that we could count on in all 4 quarters.
by APerfectStar on Feb 8, 2008 12:12 PM CST up reply actions
Tom,..he's already signed.
But, I bet he wants big money, and I think it's risky at a position where the Boys don't need to risk it.
He has 3 years remaining on his contract.
He can dominate in spurts, but then he takes himself out for a breather when he feels like it. I'd rather have a guy that we could count on in all 4 quarters.
By aquiring him, we'd be able to trade Fergie to Miami, and still have Tank Johnson and Jay Ratliff to spell him in a rotation. In Detoit, He was forced to play all 4 quaters without any depth to afford him some plays off..And he surely didn't get as gased prior to this past season...He just let himself go, and was playing closer to 260/280lbs...If he got down to 320/330, he'd be able to last alot longer..
by BoyzRback07 on Feb 9, 2008 9:59 AM CST up reply actions
I think
Wade is going to replace Spears with Ratliff. Another scenario could be replacing Spears with Hatcher.
Either scenario would be an upgrade. Four years is enough to prove yourself and Spears hasn't done it. 3.5 sacks in 4 seasons isn't cutting it.
Spears is officially a bust!
We may see Tank and Fergy or Tank and someone not on this team yet rotating at NT next season.
by Cowboys81 on Feb 9, 2008 10:57 AM CST up reply actions
The rumors out of Detroit were...
...that the Lions were so disgusted with Rodgers that they were just going to release his fat ass.
No idea how people think Wade Phillips is going to motivate this guy. Funny how the same people that want us to part ways with Flozell, think that Rodgers is going to be a saviour for our defensive front.
There's no question that we can get more out of our defensive line, but it isn't broken. I would rather keep Fergy, allowing us to slide J-Rat over to DE, replacing Spears in the starting line-up or at least passing situations. I think we can get much better with the players already on our roster. Remember, they only had a year in Wade's system and our pash rush was much improved over the last 10+ years.
by Fargo Cowboys on Feb 9, 2008 1:51 PM CST up reply actions
I can only hope...
I'd love it if they released him...This way we'd be able to sign him to a reduced contract..The only way I'd trade for him is if he was a throw in on a Roy Williams-WR trade.
I still believe he has plenty in the tank, and will get his azz in shape.
by BoyzRback07 on Feb 9, 2008 5:00 PM CST up reply actions
Fergy will be released
he is going to cost too much against the cap. We can easily bring in a rookie or FA to rotate with Tank. Tank is going to make some huge steps on this defense now that he will have a full off season to work on it.
by Cowboys81 on Feb 10, 2008 1:25 AM CST up reply actions
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