Top Corners
by Mandmeisterx
on May 30, 2008 8:54 AM CDT
It's a subject of great debate, especially in light of his new contract, is whether Terrence Newman is a top flight corner, and where he ranks among the league's elite. In my opinion, Newman is one of the few shutdown corners left in this league. Especially with the illegal contact being more tightly enforced, not many guys can be left out on an island alone with a receiver and still get the job done. A lot of people look at INT's as the telling stat, which really isn't indicative of how good a CB is at all. To have 8 or 10 INT's, you have to be tested a lot. Teams aren't going to test you a lot if they're afraid of you. Here's my top 10.
1. Nnamdi Asomugha
2. Terrence Newman
3. Champ Bailey
4. Leigh Bodden
5. Al Harris
6. Marcus Trufant
7. Asante Samuel
8. Antonio Cromartie
9. Darrelle Revis
10. Dunta Robinson (If healthy)
Go ahead and give your input (as if you needed my permission to do so). Also, show your top 10.
Another user-created commentary provided by a BTB reader.
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CB
List in no particular order
C. Bailey-Best Corner in the Game
M. Trufant-Equal Picks, More tackles.. Toss up
Asomugha, Nnamdi-8 picks 2 years ago, going in 4th year F/T starter. He is just younger
D. Hall-More Picks in Less years
A. Samuel-More Picks in Less years
N. Clement-More picks in more years of service, but is younger. Great Run Defender.
Cromartie, Antonio-Not better yet, but this kid is special, 10 picks last year.
I think any list without Champ Bailey is way off base..
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on May 30, 2008 12:16 PM CDT 0 recs
Int's
I fail to see how having more INT’s makes someone a better corner. The one thing people tend to overlook when it comes to picks, is that more often than not, you have to take chances to get them. When you gamble, you’re going to get burnt from time to time. I think one of the reasons Newman doesn’t get as much respect is because he doesn’t take chances, so he’s not revered as a playmaker. But people also tend to not see that very rarely is he ever burnt. Deango Hall gets torched time and time again, but since he’s fast, he must be a great corner in most people’s eyes. Asante Samuel dropped the biggest pick of his life. I think Cromartie is a freakish athlete, but I’m not sure I’d say he’s a great cover guy, but he still has time to become one.
by Mandmeisterx on
May 30, 2008 1:22 PM CDT
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I understand!
I know how Int’s work, that have to throw on you to pick it. Would I rather throw on Newman or Henry or Reeves last year, hmmmm…
I am just pointing out the stats, that is only thing that is factual, anything else is subjective. I was unable to find the number of times a CB has been thrown on.
Only Corner I trade him for with no hesitation is Champ..
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on
May 30, 2008 1:44 PM CDT
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I don't know who was thrown on the least
But I do know that Reeves was the most picked on corner in the NFL last year accoring to Scout’s Inc.
by Mandmeisterx on
May 30, 2008 1:46 PM CDT
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while stats are indeed factual
they are also very misleading which means they can’t prove anything. The only fact that really matters is how often a CB gets beat by a receiver, to me that determines his true worth and value.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on
May 30, 2008 1:51 PM CDT
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your right, it doesn't at all
INTs is a very overrated and misleading stat regarding CBs. My feeling is if a CB has a lot of INTs he really isn’t that great of a CB because it means QBs and OCs like to throw at them because their coverage skills aren’t that good ie Asante Samuel.
A great example is Everson Walls who was a Cowboys CB in the ‘80s and one of my very favorite players in that era. He always had a ton of INTs every year but it was because teams consistently threw at him all the time as he couldn’t cover that well.
Newman rarely if ever gives up TDs and I would take that over 10 INTs a season any day.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on
May 30, 2008 1:47 PM CDT
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edit.
I mean any list without Champ #1 is way off base. Best in the game, period..
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on May 30, 2008 12:17 PM CDT 0 recs
I agree with your top 3
Asomugha, Newman and Bailey sound about right.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on May 30, 2008 12:22 PM CDT 0 recs
Al Harris....
Al Harris is probably the most overrated corner in the league. I watch every Green Bay game, and he gets torched weekly. I bet he burned himself on the stove during the bye week just to keep his streak alive. He doesn’t have the speed to stay with hardly any receivers in the NFL. His game is predicated on bumping (read: holding) the receiver at the line, but now as he has gotten older, the faster players just run away from the bump and the stronger receiver simply overpower him. Henry is a better corner than Al Harris.
However, Charles Woodson, the other GB corner is simply outstanding and would easily make my list of top ten corners.
by Cowboy Louie on May 30, 2008 12:47 PM CDT 0 recs
Henry is a stud
He just needs to stay healthy and be more consistent.
by Mandmeisterx on
May 30, 2008 1:54 PM CDT
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Deangelo Hall?
I think he’s a little more overrated than Harris, but neither is as good as their alleged reputation.
by grapejoos on
May 30, 2008 8:01 PM CDT
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D.Hall
Does a good job picking the football and making flashy plays, but gets beat a lot in coverage trying to do too much. I think Hall and Harris are good corners, not elite.
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on
May 30, 2008 10:45 PM CDT
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Newman is the best since NO one has given up fewer TDs in the last 5 years. Bailey had a not so good year last year and a couple of years earlier was not so good. Newman has been tremendously consistent. He had a bad game in the Detroit game in 2006; he had a few not so good games in 2004 when he had a knee injury. Outside of that he has been pretty close to superb. Only morons think INTs prove anything about a CB except that he gets thrown on. Deion did not have many INTS either.
by burmafrd1944 on May 31, 2008 9:33 AM CDT 0 recs
+1
In Deion’s 5 years with the Cowboys he had 14 INTs. Newman has 16 INTs in his 5 years. And I dont think anyone would argue that Deion wasn’t a better DB than Newman is.
by WB3forMB3 on
May 31, 2008 10:40 AM CDT
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Int's don't prove anything???
I find this statement ridiculous. If you are saying turnovers don’t matter then you don’t understand football. Every coach talks about limiting turnovers, last time I checked Int’s are turnovers. Should Int’s be the only basis for a cornerbacks worth no, but it is a part of the equation.
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on
May 31, 2008 11:24 AM CDT
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Isn’t that a little dramatic? Yes, turnovers are a huge part of football, but they’re not necessarily a great way to determine the skill level of a corner. It’s just like if you only looked at points per game in basketball. It’s just one part of the equation. I’d rather have a corner that didn’t give up big plays than one who gets 8-10 INTs a year. Those picks may get you on Sportscenter, but it’s the solid coverage guys who end up winning the game for you.
by TheDead on
May 31, 2008 11:34 AM CDT
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Well
#3 on the post had 8+plus 2 out of the last 3 years.
So, it’s possible.
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on
May 31, 2008 4:36 PM CDT
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Love how you twisted that statement
It went from burmafrd1944 saying INTs dont prove anything to you saying INTs dont matter. You should run for office.
by WB3forMB3 on
May 31, 2008 12:14 PM CDT
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Like INT stats? Chew on this
Terence Newman over his 5 year career has averaged 3.2 picks per year.
Roy Williams over his 6 year career has averaged 3.17 picks per year.
Hell, since INTs are so telling to a DB’s coverage skills that must mean that Roy is just as skilled in coverage as Newman.
Hmmmmmm
by WB3forMB3 on
May 31, 2008 1:35 PM CDT
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You can't have it both ways
If you make a case for INT’s being a measure of CB greatness, then you simply have to use the idea of how many TD’s they gave up. Here’s the logic; not being tested isn’t a great measure of how good you are, but it MAY be a measure of how bad the CB playing opposite you is. The idea being that teams would always throw on Larry Brown (and beat him often) but not so much Deion. While Deion’s greatness cannot be questioned, this was much more a statement of how average Brown was and the relative likelihood of success on one CB versus another.
By the same token, INT’s might be more a discussion of what kind of teams they faced and the QB play on those teams. CB’s that played in divisions that had more balanced attacks or ran more probably had fewer opportunities to make a big play. I always said Lester Hayes and Mike Haynes looked a lot better on paper than othe CB’s because they went up against Air Coryell twice a year and Fouts threw the ball an average of 4,672 times per game and didn’t really care if he had a 4 TD, 4 INT game. That was par for the course.
Newman is a victim of both of these things. He didn’t get many INT’s, nor did he give up many TD’s because the guy playing opposite him was always a lesser talent. Don’t forget, between Jacques Reeves and Roy Williams, opposing offenses could count on finding open guys if they just looked to see who those two guys were locked up on.
So, the question is really what is flawed here. It’s not about who the best CB is, because that doesn’t have anything to do with the team’s (much less that particular secondary’s) success. It’s really about who has the best PAIR of CB’s. Hmmm…gives me an idea for a new post. :-)
by 5Blings on May 31, 2008 11:45 AM CDT 0 recs
My take!!
I am not on the boat that Roy sucks, so your point only makes feel better for backing up Roy. He is no where as bad of player as some of the media and fans making him out to be.
Thank you-WB3forMB3
There are a lot of corners who are great, and even some elite corners who have registered 8-10 picks in a season. So it is possible for a corner to have both. I have said it earlier int’s are a part of the equation, not the underline deciding factor. I also said I think T-New is an elite corner, but I hate when people completely throw int’s out the window. Saying Int’s don’t prove anything, doesn’t make sense to me. It does prove something, people tested you and they paid for it. Because of you the ball is back in the offenses hands..
5Blings, makes a great point. Just because you don’t have the ball thrown on you doesn’t make you elite; it could just mean you are better then the player on the other side. So the other is exploiting that miss-match.
Once again I believe Newman is top-tier CB.
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on May 31, 2008 4:34 PM CDT 0 recs
Except for his first year or so, Tnew has had a pretty good corner playing next to him. And actually untill the refs started calling PI on him all the time Mario Edwards was pretty decent. Henry is a very solid CB so you cannot say that the QBs look forward to throwing against him. One more point Tnew has given up so few plays and TDs over his career and that has been consistent whether he has had a good CB on the other side or Reeves.
As regards INTs I still maintain they really prove very little. If you were to get down to details on plays given up and TDs allowed vs INTs gotten you would find without exception that TNew has had better stats on giving up plays then any other CB in football. Sure Champ had a couple of great years with 10 ints but he gave up more then afew TDs as well. Unless you take a Pic to the house or at least into the red zone it never equals a big play given up or a TD scored. And you will find that even Champ has given up more big plays and TDs then he has had Pics and TDs.
by burmafrd1944 on May 31, 2008 9:41 PM CDT 0 recs
scratching my head
If you were to get down to details on plays given up and TDs allowed vs INTs gotten you would find without exception that TNew has had better stats on giving up plays then any other CB in football.
Wait do you have these stats? Are you just assuming to make your point?
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on
May 31, 2008 10:05 PM CDT
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I guess you have never read any of Joyners research. If you haven’t then you frankly have no idea at all.
by burmafrd1944 on Jun 1, 2008 2:48 AM CDT 0 recs
by burmafrd1944 on Jun 1, 2008 2:49 AM CDT 0 recs
ok
I reviewed the link. He didn’t mention anything about your statement ON T-new having much better stats. It appears this link was from before last season???
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on
Jun 1, 2008 9:39 AM CDT
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That was 2006 he had those numbers for. He puts each years numbers in his book; it does not go out online untill after he has sold enough books.
His previous reviews of Newman were very glowing; I wish I had his stats from 2005.
As near as I can tell Newman was only down a little in 2006. He gets thrown at so little that a really bad game like Detroit affects his numbers a lot.
by burmafrd1944 on Jun 1, 2008 9:35 PM CDT 0 recs
we agree
T-new is an elite CB..
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on
Jun 1, 2008 9:53 PM CDT
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1-Champ Bailey
2-Asante Samuel
3-Nnamdi Asomugha
4-Antonio Cromartie (Pac Man here if he returns to form. Maybe even higher by this time next year)
5-Marcus Trufant
6-Terrance Newman
7- Pac Man
8-D. Hall
9-Al Harris
10- Darrelle Revis
Getting INT’s is part of being a elite CB. Spin it as you like, but no CB is going to be considered one of the best until he can produce. Just ask Deion.
Look up... get up...Don't ever, ever give up!!
by Boyzfan94 on Jun 10, 2008 8:02 PM CDT 0 recs
thats funny because
Deion was considered the best and he didn’t pick off that many passes. I’d much rather have a CB who shuts down his receiver and QBs just don’t throw their way than a guy can who can get beat and gets INTs just because of so many opportunites because QBs aren’t afraid to throw their way, ie Samuel.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on
Jun 12, 2008 8:26 PM CDT
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Not even close Terry
Deion was a playmaker, more so than Newman ever was. Deion had 53 INT’s in his career. 9 returned for TD’s.
Newman has 16 INT’s in 5 years and he get’s thrown to him a heck of alot more than Deion did.
This is not even close debate. Newman is a good, but not a great CB. He will never be considered one of the elite CB’s in this league until he can make plays on a consistant basis.
Look up... get up...Don't ever, ever give up!!
by Boyzfan94 on
Jun 13, 2008 1:22 AM CDT
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I agree.....putting TNew in same group as Sanders is way off base...
This year is TNew’s chance to show his true worth….He’ll be getting quite a few more balls thrown at him…..Pacman is/will be a more feared opponent to throw at…...why you ask ?....cuz he puts himself in the proper position to make a play on the ball, (sure TNew bats a few balls away here and there, but lacks some on playmaking ability)...Pacman has made plays all while “shutting down” his receiver…..alas Sanders comparison is more justified.
A true diehard Cowboys fan since 1975.
"If you don’t take him off the field as a coach, he will just about die out there," Jerry Jones said. "That impacted my decision. It’s a Michael Irvin-type work ethic. That’s what we are talking about with Felix Jones."
- Owner/G.M of the Dallas Cowboys , Jerry Jones
by BoyzRback on
Jun 13, 2008 6:01 AM CDT
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more INTs this year
well, having solid/great corners 4-5 deep this year, combined with this pass rush, should help everyone get more INT opportunities.
by scottmaui on Jun 10, 2008 11:17 PM CDT 0 recs
our d
should create a lot of turnovers..
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on
Jun 10, 2008 11:30 PM CDT
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Samuels, Cromartie and Trufant are NOT better then Tnew. Anyone thinks so – well I put them up there with Skip Bayless and Cowherd.
by burmafrd1944 on Jun 11, 2008 4:06 AM CDT 0 recs
Well call me Skip Bayless then
because Cromartie based on last season is already better than Newman. The kid is aleady a beast. He has all the athletic ability to be one of the best for a long time. He has the potential to be the next Champ Bailey. Samuel is a better all around CB than Newman at this point in his career. Trufant is a push and I could’ve went either way.
Look up... get up...Don't ever, ever give up!!
by Boyzfan94 on
Jun 11, 2008 12:22 PM CDT
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thats funny
because I’ve seen Cromartie and Samuel get beat, especially Samuel, but Newman rarely if ever gets beat.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on
Jun 12, 2008 8:31 PM CDT
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um, Newman gets beat
I can recall plenty of times Newman getting beat in the slot. Cromartie is just a beast. He is young, fast and has more athletic ability than Newman ever had. Just watching him for one season anyone can see it. Did you see some of those INT’s he had last season? What did have like 10 last season?
Look up... get up...Don't ever, ever give up!!
by Boyzfan94 on Jun 13, 2008 1:11 AM CDT 0 recs
INTs just proves QBs aren't afraid
to throw at him. You’re wrong about Newman’s athletic ability, he has every bit as athletic as Cromartie if not more at his “advanced age”, lol.
Of course Newman gets beat once in a while in the slot and so would Cromartie if he ever played it. SD plays him outside because he’s not good enough to play the slot like Newman. When Newman plays outside, he never gets beat.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on
Jun 13, 2008 7:19 AM CDT
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My thoughts
I think T-new his an elite corner. I don’t think he has physically gifted as Cromartie, but that doesn’t mean Cromartie is better. Cromartie has gotten off to a great start, his body of work isn’t enough for me to discuss him the same breath as T-new. Deltha O’Neal lead the league in picks 05. I don’t think you can rank a player on one years production. The best athlete doesn’t always make the best player. If that was true T. Jackson would be a top 5 QB. He is a great athlete, he runs an excellent 40 time, strong, and a has super strong arm. He is more physically gifted then Romo, Manning, and Brady..
There is only one corner who is hands down better then T-New, that is champ bailey. I don’t trust those New England players, I trust the scheme more then the player. Deion Branch comes to mind.
Takes more then just athletic ability to make it.
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on
Jun 13, 2008 9:36 AM CDT
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