Thinking About CB's
by 5Blings on May 31, 2008 12:42 PM CDT
123 comments
From a previous thread, I was thinking about who I would rate as having the best corps of CB's in the NFL. Dallas has a CB that surely ranks as one of the top 5 in the NFC, but how do they rate when you add Anthony Henry, a pair of rookies and potentially Pac Man (who hasn't hit anything other than an exotic dancer in the last 18 months) to the mix? Anyway, here's where I landed;
1. Raiders: It is hard to argue (although I am sure some will) with the combo of Asomugha and Hall. Getting Hall may be the best offseason move of any team. If they can generate any pressure up front, watch out.
2. Eagles: I know, you're yelling at me...calling me names...I know. But hang on, Lito Sheppard is a highly regarded pro bowler (surely a top 15 CB) and Asante Samuel's accomlishments are irrefutable, evidence his new paycheck. How many teams have two young pro bowlers starting at CB? Oakland and Philly. I still think (hope) Lito will get traded, but time will tell.
3. Chargers: Antonio Cromartie is the total package and won't be tested nearly as much as last year. Quentin Jammer has quietly become a very solid cover guy and is a sure tackler. First round pick was CB Antoine Cason. Scary.
4. Seahawks: Now you're just pounding your keyboard on the desk. Okay, I get it, but before you damage your Commodore 64, think about this; Trufant led the conference in INT's last year on a team with a far lesser pass rush than Dallas'. Even if you think Newman edges Trufant out (which most Cowboys fans do and most fans of other teams do not), Kelly Jennings is a CB with lockdown ability and far more upside than Anthony Henry. Remember, CORPS of CB's.
5. Broncos: Champ is still THE best CB in the game. Anyone that really watches how he shadows, flips his hips effortlessly and stays tight on short, intermediate and deep routes knows this. Dre Bly is good, but the Bronco pass rush looks a lot like the one we generated when Ebenezer Ekuban (remember him?) was our #1 edge rusher. Bly gets beat on double moves and QB's have plenty of time to let them develop. Karl Paymah is an old school big hitter and fun to watch him throw his body around.
6. Cowboys: Um, yay? Look, for years, this was our achiliies heel. In fact, because of injuries and inconsistent play at the #2 and #3 CB spots (repeat after me; I will not bash Roy Williams...I will not bash Roy Williams), this was again a weakness on the defense. If you consider the number of sacks and QB pressures we had last year, to not have significantly more turnovers and far fewer 3rd down conversions is a travesty. Henry was very average even when he was healthy and he may be a liability against smaller, quicker WR's that forces us look at him as a FS candidate. Our #3 CB, whoever it is, has either not played an NFL down before, or is completely out of shape after 18 months of XBOX 360. C'mon, put the objective hat on. This team has some questions at CB that need to be answered.
7. Vikings: Winfield good, Gordon not so much.
8. Jaguars: Mathis is in my top 10 CB list. Drayton Florence is best known for being stupid, but plays with aggression.
9. Packers: Al Harris...Charles Woodson. They should be better than they are, but as you get older, your hips tighten up. They are 33 and 31, respectively. Nuff' said.
10: Ken Lucas is very good and Chris Gamble can shadow. Richard Marshall has upside.
Okay, enough about what I think, now it's your turn...
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I wouldn't put the Cowboys first but
not 6th either. I am counting Pacman in, which would make the CB position one of the best in football. Can’t say where yet, but top 5 is not a stretch. I liked Jenkins better than Cason on draft day, and Scandrick has great upside. Henry isn’t perfect, but they got him to match up with larger receivers and if you have Pacman present for duty, you can pick your spots better with Henry. You also have to consider that Campo is hands down a better secondary coach than anyone the team has had in a while. Those bonehead break downs that made us grind our teeth in our sleep should also see improvement.
And the comment on Williams is gratuitous since the question wasn’t the secondary but rather CBs.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on May 31, 2008 3:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'll concede the Williams thing to you
...but please understand that it was half tongue-in-cheek.
As for Pac Man, let’s put some perspective on that one. You have to like what you see in terms of quickness on film and his ability to play the ball, BUT, the guy wasn’t rated one of the top 5 CB’s in the conference when he first got into trouble AND he hasn’t seen a pair of cleats and a live tackling drill since he “made it rain”.
I think anyone who thinks Pac Man immediately adds value in the nickel (show me anyone who was out of football for more than a season and came back to be an impact player…Ricky Williams tried more than once) is only saying that because Dallas has no proven depth at the position and that makes for a very shaky argument. The fact is that our #3 CB is either a rook or a guy who is out of football shape. It may be better than having Reeves, but guessing how much better is just that, a guess.
I tried to evaluate this not from my personal standpoint as a Dallas fan, but a bit more objectively (i.e. how would Chad Johnson or Anquan Boldin rate the CB’s).
Love the commentary and keep it coming…
Also, please don’t forget to recommend it , so we get more votes in the poll.
by 5Blings on May 31, 2008 6:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pacman is undoubtedly talented
and with some work, he’d be the best number 3 in football. And Scandrick / Jenkins are probably superior to N. Jones / Reeves. So if you improve the number 11 defense of last year, I think they’ll be quite good. Of course it’s impossible to know how good, but I think the CB position is now a strength and one of the best in football.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on May 31, 2008 8:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent post!
For reals, great job with the breakdowns. But you know I have to disagree, especially about the Cowboys. As it stands, without Pacman, Dallas is definitely better than the Broncos and a bit better than the Seahawks. If Henry stays healthy, then we’re probably better than the Chargers. Raiders and Iggles are 1a and 1b.
Rankings without Pacman:
1a. Raiders
1b. Iggles
2. Cowboys
3. Chargers
4. Seahawks
5. Broncos (??)
With Pacman, we join the Raiders and the Iggles in the top tier.
by accidental innuendo on May 31, 2008 3:37 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Hall is...
O-VER-RA-TED CLAP, CLAP, CLAP CLAP CLAP
by quincyyyyy on May 31, 2008 4:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
question
Where would you rank Hall?
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on May 31, 2008 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Hall is easily
top 15. Although I do agree with quincyyyyy that he is overrated. Out of the top 15, I’d say he’s somewhere after 12.
My popcorn's ready!
by CowboyBawler4 on May 31, 2008 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hall
I have him in the 10 range. This year will be a telling season for him since he is going to a team with a top 10 defense against the pass.
Anyone hear the Wade Phillips interview on sirius this morning?
I heard him say he has never heard a strong safety cover skills so highly discussed. That’s is all I was able to catch.
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on May 31, 2008 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course the coaches are going to defend him in public
In addition, I have never heard of a SS with a $30 million contract being benched on passing downs.
by quincyyyyy on May 31, 2008 7:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you factor in all the Dallas depth (including The Pacman)
Dallas is #1
You could make a good argument for The Iggles and Raiders (although who is their 3rd CB)
The rest of them are not close.
T-New, shutting down WR's for Dallas since 2003
by APerfectStar on May 31, 2008 5:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
why
do you say that? because it’s different than your rankings?
for some positions, it’s pointless to talk about depth – “our #3 RB is way better than yours, etc.” because that guy will almost never play. But in talking about CB’s, your #3CB is going to be in on tons of plays, and your #4 or even #5 may get tested on critical plays – usually 3rd or 4th downs. I think it’s very fair to take a hard look at guys #3 and #4, maybe even #5.
I think you started a good post and maybe you can include some better discussion than just calling people homer…
by Scoobay on May 31, 2008 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, I was joking and thought you would take it as such...
I’m new to this and don’t yet know which things people get touchy about, so please excuse my ignorance.
by 5Blings on May 31, 2008 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The #3 in Oakland is
Stanford Routt, from the University of Houston (for all of you Cougar fans out there) who started 14 games for them last season. He’s solid, if unspectacular.
by 5Blings on May 31, 2008 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd take Henry or Jenkins over Routt
I have been called worse than a homer, but in this case I don’t see a deeper stable of CB’s than Dallas has right now.
If you include The Pacman among Dallas’ roster, that gives us Newman, Pacman, Henry, Jenkins and Scandrick. I think it would be hard to find a better corp of DB’s in the NFL if you look at the depth.
I should have included SD in the top 4, I forgot about Cason being drafted. But I still put Dallas as #1.
T-New, shutting down WR's for Dallas since 2003
by APerfectStar on Jun 1, 2008 1:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just so I understand...
You would take a guy who has never played an NFL down (Jenkins) over a 3-year vet and last year’s starter (Routt) and that would be your justification for ranking Dallas over the Raiders?
If so, my problem with your position is as follows;
Asomugha = Newman
Hall >>> Henry
Routt >> Jenkins
Thus, Raiders > Cowboys in the CB department.
Now, the whole Pac Man thing could change the formula, but right now, this is the only comparison I could make.
Am I missing something here?
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
by 5Blings on Jun 1, 2008 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well your missing Pacman
It’s pretty clear, if you would have read my post instead of automatically defending your personal choice of the Raiders. I get it, you like Routt, I don’t know anything about the guy but I wouldn’t rule out Jenkins being a better corner. Was Routt considered the in the top 3 CB’s in his draft class?
T-New, shutting down WR's for Dallas since 2003
by APerfectStar on Jun 1, 2008 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what does it matter..
what routt’s draft day grade was or what not. Scouts dont always call it right people bust that shouldbe good and vice versa.. so just because jenkins was top 3 in his draft class proves very little… Routt has actually played in the NFL and succeded.
What the French?! Toast!
by thebigham on Jun 1, 2008 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just asking a question friend
I would take Jenkins over Routt, if you don’t agree, you don’t need to attack my answer to someone elses comment.
T-New, shutting down WR's for Dallas since 2003
by APerfectStar on Jun 1, 2008 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im not "attacking" anything
You said you would take an unproven rookie over a guy who is obviously a good NFL corner. I dont understand just like i didnt understand trade Barber for someone who hasnt played a NLF snap(DMAC).
Sorry if i hurt your feelings(sincere) but i was just trying to provide some discussion here as my point or side of the fence is i dont think Cowboys are in the top 5 of corners and fans should wait and see if our 2 rookies and Adam can make it in the NFL. Just because someone says they are good doesnt mean they will be good come game time its very hard to evaluate NFL talent.
What the French?! Toast!
by thebigham on Jun 1, 2008 5:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No hurt feelings here
5Blings asked me why I would rank Dallas above Oakland, I was including Pacman, so Jenkins would be the 4th CB, that’s pretty impressive depth when you can list your 1st round pick (and top rated drafted CB) as #4.
T-New, shutting down WR's for Dallas since 2003
by APerfectStar on Jun 1, 2008 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can count himin the mix but the fact is that NO ONE
...knows what Pac Man will or won’t be able to do after such a long layoff. It seems foolhardy to assume he comes in and takes over the nickel spot on day 1 after all the Doritos and Mountain Dew he’s had for 18 months.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
by 5Blings on Jun 1, 2008 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As Jerry said
Pacman is not in game day shape, but neither is anyone else at this point.
T-New, shutting down WR's for Dallas since 2003
by APerfectStar on Jun 1, 2008 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good write up...I'd switch Dallas and Seattle though..and SD and Philly
At this point, I’d rate the top CB teams like this:
Oakland
San Diego
Philly
Dallas
Denver
Seattle
This is of course just the top two starters for each team….You have to go with Dallas for overall depth…......pending Pacman’s reinstatement.
A true diehard Cowboys fan since 1975.
"If you don’t take him off the field as a coach, he will just about die out there," Jerry Jones said. "That impacted my decision. It’s a Michael Irvin-type work ethic. That’s what we are talking about with Felix Jones."
- Owner/G.M of the Dallas Cowboys , Jerry Jones
by BoyzRback on May 31, 2008 6:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
No way...
Philly has three proven CB’s of very high caliber, including 2 pro bowlers. SD has one pro bowler with one career year so far, and a good #2 and an unproven #3.
Samuel, Sheppard and Brown > Cromartie, Jammer and Cason
by 5Blings on May 31, 2008 8:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Jammer is ok, he finally stepped up a little last year, but he is not great by any means.
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on May 31, 2008 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jammer was toast 2 years ago playing alongside Florence
but it’s amazing what playing with a stud CB opposite you and some over the top safety help can do for your confidence.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
by 5Blings on Jun 1, 2008 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you guys also have to consider behind
our top three we also have Jenkins and Scandrick as our 4th and 5th corners. I think from top to bottom of the CB depth chart we arguably have the best CB corps in the league.
by quincyyyyy on May 31, 2008 7:51 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Anyone thinking Hall is a top 15 corner needs to do a little research. He is NOT.
Hall is ALL flash and very little substance. He is about the best arguement (after Roy) for the pro bowl meaning NOTHING.
With Pacman, who in his last year playing steadily improved into at least a top 10 corner, and Tnew who is arguably in the top 3, adding to that Henry who when healthy is very solid, our top 3 is frankly right there at the top of the NFL. I frankly do not see any other trio better.
by burmafrd1944 on May 31, 2008 9:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Deck the HALLS...
Anyone thinking Hall is a top 15 corner needs to do a little research. He is NOT
Hmmm.. What kind of research are you suggesting? because I watch the games. Yes he has been beat before, but who hasn’t.. He is top 15! He is top 10 my opinion, but no lower then 15. No way.
I see where people say he is over-rated, some publications, and fans have him as an elite corner. I think there are maybe 3-5 elite, but he is the next tier of good to great corner.
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on May 31, 2008 10:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who are the 3-5 elite CBs in the league?
I’m not doubting the numbers. . .but I think if we mapped them out, we’d find more than 3-5 actually.
Bailey, Newman, Asomugha, Shephard, Samuel, R. Mathis, Cromartie is outstanding. . .I think all six can be labeled as elite. Others?
Bum's Boy Boyz
by JerrodWheeler on May 31, 2008 11:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have 5
Bailey
Newman
Samuel
Asmougha
Shephard oft injured, has played a full season since in 3 years.
R. Mathis sorry not elite. I think he is good, not great.
Cromartie-body of work too small
I have it a 4.
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on May 31, 2008 11:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So . . . how do you define elite?
Bum's Boy Boyz
by JerrodWheeler on Jun 1, 2008 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree
People bashing D Hall are more about his off-the-field stuff than his play (the T.O. Halo Effect).
Hall is a top cover guy and every GM has him rated that way. However, not every GM wants him on their team.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
by 5Blings on Jun 1, 2008 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not at all
I would bash Hall for his ON the field activity that isn’t necessarily related to his play. The guy is selfish, stupid, and arrogant. He racked up, what, 60+ yards in penalties in a single drive last year? He gets burned repeatedly too. KC Joyner has had some interesting columns breaking down exactly how overrated he is in terms of allowing big plays.
The guy has tremendous physical gifts, but I would rather have Anthony Henry if I’m a coach/teammate. I’m not joking.
by grapejoos on Jun 1, 2008 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I bash Hall
because he gets beat like a drum
by quincyyyyy on Jun 1, 2008 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can you help me with some references to who actually burned him that bad and when?
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
by 5Blings on Jun 1, 2008 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He got taken to the tool shed against the Giants last season and us
the season before that. Just every time I have seen him I have been very very unimpressed to put it lightly.
by quincyyyyy on Jun 1, 2008 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
**
Shephard oft injured, hasn’t played a full season since in 3 years.
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on May 31, 2008 11:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Neither has T.O.
But that doesn’t make him any less a great player in my mind.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
by 5Blings on Jun 1, 2008 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some truth
TO played a full season 2 years ago and only missed one game last year. Sheppard on the other hand has missed an average of 4 games over the last 3 years. That is 25% of the teams games, that is different then missing one game in two seasons.
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on Jun 1, 2008 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point
Sheppard wouldn’t have been dangled as trade bait if he wasn’t so injury prone.
T-New, shutting down WR's for Dallas since 2003
by APerfectStar on Jun 1, 2008 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I watch the games too. I also read what Joyner puts up and frankly anyone thinking Hall is top 10 is drunk or delusional.
by burmafrd1944 on Jun 1, 2008 2:46 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
by burmafrd1944 on Jun 1, 2008 2:50 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
We disagree!
I am fine with that. All I know is this will be a telling season for him. Oakland has a quality secondary, whoever is getting toasted next season will stick out like a sore thumb. I will ear mark my calender to re-visit this debate during the Dallas bye week.
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on Jun 1, 2008 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In that article he says Newman is over rated- which was hilarious because at that time he had never been to a pro bowl. I have noticed that Joyner while having a lot of very good info sometimes gets tunnel vision so you should never take what he says as your only source. He isolates every position and does not consider such things like for the CB whether the team has a good pass rush or not. However he is dead on right on Hall.
by burmafrd1944 on Jun 1, 2008 2:56 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Henry
I personally believe that A. Henry is not nearly as respected as he should be. I believe the only knock you can have on him is that he is injury prone. The man was leading the League in interceptions last year before he got hurt, and the year before that he was banged up all season. Is he a top 5 corner in the league, NO, but he is at least as good as a Jammer or Bly in my opinion. Just my two cents.
by cowboyfan on Jun 1, 2008 5:41 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I would take a healthy Henry over Hall.
by burmafrd1944 on Jun 1, 2008 7:19 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I dont get it
Yes we are all Cowboy fans but to say cowboys are top 5 in CBs is crazy in my book. Come on Henry cant stay injury free, Adam Jones hasnt played football in 18months, and then theres two rookies that havent done anything. So the cowboys have one top flight corner but he is aging and got hurt last year, their other starter is even older and gets hurt more, and then its basically 3 rookies behind them. No one knows how Adam jones or the rooks will pan out so to assume they are going to turn out for the better is being a little homerish.
C’mon if every DB the cowboys drafting was going to pan out we wouldnt be talking about this. Yeah they look good now but lets hold off putting the cowboys DBs above proven ones like the eagles(#1 in my book) raiders seahawks or broncos( champ is THE best)
What the French?! Toast!
by thebigham on Jun 1, 2008 10:17 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Call me crazy then
T-New, shutting down WR's for Dallas since 2003
by APerfectStar on Jun 1, 2008 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are just being optimistic about a guy who hasnt played in 18months and about 2 rookies who havent played an NFL snap. Its nice to hope but i wouldnt get your hopes up haha.
What the French?! Toast!
by thebigham on Jun 1, 2008 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll admit it
My hopes are as high as they’ve ever been for the Cowboys, and a big part is due to the CB depth we’ll have. But seriously when Pacman gets back in shape he’s 10x better than Reeves. Jenkins is already better than Reeves and Jones, and this Scandrick kid might be the cherry on top.
T-New, shutting down WR's for Dallas since 2003
by APerfectStar on Jun 1, 2008 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good Points
Kinda makes me wander how excited people were about Jacques Reeves and Nate Jones when they were drafted.
by WB3forMB3 on Jun 2, 2008 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jones and Reeves
Weren’t 1st round picks.
by Mandmeisterx on Jun 2, 2008 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jones and Reeves were 7th rounders
The Red Ball Express will be rolling this year!
by BulletBob on Jun 2, 2008 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can answer that one - Nobody was excited (besides their family and friends)
A couple of no name guys who somehow clung on to the team for 4 years.
Big difference between drafting a top rated CB in the 1st round and a couple no name guys in the 7th round.
T-New, shutting down WR's for Dallas since 2003
by APerfectStar on Jun 2, 2008 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still have high hopes for 7th rounders Courtney Brown...and to a lesser degree Allan Ball has a chance to stick as our 6th CB
A true diehard Cowboys fan since 1975.
"If you don’t take him off the field as a coach, he will just about die out there," Jerry Jones said. "That impacted my decision. It’s a Michael Irvin-type work ethic. That’s what we are talking about with Felix Jones."
- Owner/G.M of the Dallas Cowboys , Jerry Jones
by BoyzRback on Jun 2, 2008 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This was my point
I wasn’t trying to say that the hopes for Reeves and Jones compared to someone like Mike Jenkins and Adam Jones. But it does seem like most fans get excited about pretty much every pick. And talk about how some teams had those picks rated as 4th rounders or 5th rounders. And how they could be the potential “steal of the draft”. Much like people are saying Scandrick, a 5th rounder, could be the steal of the draft. There’s always specualtion and high hopes. Heck, we are still exhibiting high hopes for last years 7th rounders.
by WB3forMB3 on Jun 3, 2008 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hope springs eternal
But again, there is a difference even between 4th and 5th round picks and the 7th round picks. I don’t think “most” fans were excited by anything past the 4th or 5th, except the draftniks. (I include myself in that category, so not knocking ‘em)
T-New, shutting down WR's for Dallas since 2003
by APerfectStar on Jun 3, 2008 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never had that feeling when we drafted
Skyler Green or Fasano or Steinback
by BigE on Jun 3, 2008 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
From now on, you are known as "ACrazyStar" ;-)
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
by 5Blings on Jun 1, 2008 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It reminds me of a classic Gilbert Godfrey joke
So I was having lunch with Charles Manson the other day, and suddenly he looks up at me and says ’ Is it hot in here, or am crazy?’
T-New, shutting down WR's for Dallas since 2003
by APerfectStar on Jun 1, 2008 6:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
With Pacman
We SHOULD have the best CB corps in the league, because of the depth. Jenkins should be a very high quality CB in 1-2 years and is certainly a fine #4.
I will give plenty of respect to Philly though. Until we see Pacman show his old form, Philly gets the nod here (unless they traded Lito for some reason, which I’ve never understood). They have solid cover guys and they will make big plays.
That said, I think Newman, Pacman, Henry is as good a top 3 as the Eagles have and possibly better. It all depends on if Pacman plays and, if so, how well. That we’re even having this debate is remarkable considering what things were like a year ago.
by grapejoos on Jun 1, 2008 4:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It's Funny
But for a team that hasn’t won a playoff game in over a decade, the fan base is supposed to think that a guy who hasn’t played football in over 18 months is going to be the savior of our nickel defense.
I’m not buying it…and neither should you until someone sees him in Oxnard consistently breaking up deep balls to Owens and Crayton.
It’s also funny that people worry about Sheppard’s availability more than Pac Man’s when Jones is a speeding ticket away from never setting foot on a field again. This (the PacMan thing) is creating the kind of baseless fanaticism that the Parcells hiring generated. I’d caution everyone to keep a rational perspective through all of this.
Boy, I can’t wait to write one of these up about Safeties. If CB’s generated this much passion, imagine what talking about Roy Williams and Ken Holdoutlin will be like. :-)
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
by 5Blings on Jun 1, 2008 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But to be fair
being enthusiastic about Pacman is not baseless. He’s considered by most NFL commentators – pundits and experts alike – to be a high-quality CB. Of course there’s a chance that he’s forgotten how to play during his supension, but if you had to guess you’d have to weigh the odds in favor of playing well rather than playing badly. I mean it’s not like he’s been injured or lost a step due to age. And just having Pacman and Newman together in the backfield is reason for optimism. I can’t say for sure where they’d rank because secondaries don’t play each other, but it would be a damned good one…
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on Jun 1, 2008 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My thoughts
If Pac-Man is re-instated he will be up running after week 4. I think it will take him 4 games to get in to football shape and adjust to the speed. Then we will have arguably the best trio the NFL, assuming the Henry and Newman are healthy. If No Pac-Man, I imagine Jenkins or Scandrick doing an good job at nickel cb, but making rookie mistakes. With Pac-man top 3, with-out top 7!
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on Jun 1, 2008 7:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a fair guess Dub-Mil
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on Jun 1, 2008 8:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's rumored to be reinstated perhaps within the week . . .
If that takes place, he’ll have all of June, July, August and most of September to get in shape. How poorly do we think he’s out of shape now? Certainly the better part of 4 months would have him ready to play football. . .no?
Bum's Boy Boyz
by JerrodWheeler on Jun 1, 2008 10:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not in Shape
Regular Season football shape, there is no way to simulate that..
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on Jun 1, 2008 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right but
no player is in regular season form since no one is playing. It’s not his physical conditioning I worry about as much as the thinking part on the field.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on Jun 2, 2008 5:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
To think that he isn’t going to be in shape is silly IMO. . .all players are training right now (or should be) and will come to training camp in some type of condition to allow them to play a football game without getting severely gassed.
Now – being able to pick up the game that he hasn’t played in more than a few months [sarcasm off] – tis a different thing to think about. However, my guess is that he’ll be ready to run sooner than later and contributing provided he’s allowed to practice with the team sooner than later.
Bum's Boy Boyz
by JerrodWheeler on Jun 2, 2008 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can you name a player that took that kind of time away from the game
and actually made a significant impact in the season in which they returned to the field?
I can’t.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
by 5Blings on Jun 4, 2008 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, but how many CBs have been suspended for a year?
This is a rare case. Usually guys are gone from the game because they (a) got hurt (b) got cut and lacked the talent to immediately work elsewhere. And still those guys contribute.
Pete Hunter started for Seattle in playoffs after a longer hiatus than that and performed pretty well.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on Jun 4, 2008 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
with less than a week of practice....good example dunk...
A true diehard Cowboys fan since 1975.
"If you don’t take him off the field as a coach, he will just about die out there," Jerry Jones said. "That impacted my decision. It’s a Michael Irvin-type work ethic. That’s what we are talking about with Felix Jones."
- Owner/G.M of the Dallas Cowboys , Jerry Jones
by BoyzRback on Jun 4, 2008 10:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, the last thing he hit was a woman at a strip club
How is thinking he won’t be ready to play NFL football after an 18-month layoff silly?
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
by 5Blings on Jun 4, 2008 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The argument isn't whether or not he'll be ready
the comment on “silly” was his physical conditioning. You’ve already heard form coaches on this one. He looks great.
The question is his ability to think and act on the field. That remains to be seen, but he has a lot of time in practice and preseason to get that back. I think he will.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on Jun 4, 2008 6:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not trying to dampen your enthusiasm
for Pac Man at all…
My comment was about how people thought Lito was more likely to miss time than a guy who has been arrested nine times.
The other side of that is that coming off of a long layoff makes Jones more susceptible to injury too.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
by 5Blings on Jun 7, 2008 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jones has control over his arrests or lack thereof
Lito doesn’t. If he gets attensted with clearly only one chance left, then he’s stupid on top of being a criminal. But I doubt he trashes his one and only chance in life to earn millions.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on Jun 7, 2008 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"arrested" sometimes
my fingers refuse to take directions from my brain…
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on Jun 7, 2008 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hall is toast and if you bother to further check out Joyner’s site he gives chapter and verse. As regards his dissing of Newman- I ha ve noticed he is kind of schizo about Newman. In the last 3 years he called him under rated untill 2006. Then he was over rated. Newmans numbers were down in 2006, but not terribly. Thing with newman is that he gets thrown at so little a really bad game like the Detroit game throws his numbers in the toilet.
Now as regards Pacman his last year playing pretty much everyone was giving him props. I wish I could find Joyners numbers on him but he was doing well- a whole lot better then Hall. Being off for a year should not really affect a CB all that much. To me a QB is the one that would suffer a lot; most other players it really should not bother too much.
by burmafrd1944 on Jun 1, 2008 9:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
HAll
I circle back to my previous post, I think he is top 10. I don’t think he is elite, but he is good corner.
As for pacman he has never been on team who pressures and gets to the QB like we do. He will have plenty of oppurtunties to make big plays.. Come ON Godell re-instate PAC-MAN!!
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on Jun 1, 2008 9:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait a minute...
You take Joyner’s use of a statistic that disregards the benefits of playing on a team with a solid pass rush or playing opposite another good CB and call that the one and only metric by which Hall and other CB’s should be judged. Then you go on to rationalize why his measurement isn’t a good one when it comes to T-New.
Am I reading that wrong?
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
by 5Blings on Jun 7, 2008 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could you all get off this Pacman's not in football shape nonsense.!!!!
Come August and training camp, EVERY single player in the league would have been off the field and NOT in game shape from being out of regular work for at least 7-8 months….8 months or 18 months….NO difference….....It’s like riding a bike….Pacman stays in tip top shape, and from visual confirmation, appears to be in very good shape today…...IF he is reinstated over the next month or so…..I ASSURE you with a full training camp, HE WILL be in JUST as good playing shape than any other guy…...YOU don’t forget how to run, tackle, catch, swivel, bump, etc. etc…..overnight…He is STILL a top 10 CB even with the layoff…..
He will be an immediate impact player for our team…...offense, defense, and return game…..and you don’t get there by being out of game shape…
A true diehard Cowboys fan since 1975.
"If you don’t take him off the field as a coach, he will just about die out there," Jerry Jones said. "That impacted my decision. It’s a Michael Irvin-type work ethic. That’s what we are talking about with Felix Jones."
- Owner/G.M of the Dallas Cowboys , Jerry Jones
by BoyzRback on Jun 2, 2008 6:21 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I hope your right
I want him to be in shape too, but I just can’t equate the ability to play CB in the NFL to riding a bike-Sorry.
Do you have an example of player who was off for a year came back and was at that same level when the season started?
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on Jun 2, 2008 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure I can think of one
The best example of such a guy is probably someone who took time off due to injury/concussions and came back, but I’m blanking on an example.
That said, I don’t expect Pacman to have suddenly forgotten how to play football. There will be some cobwebs, sure, but the guy has been doing it his whole life. He needs to get in game shape and review film and all of that stuff, which will come once he’s reinstated. I don’t worry that the guy has eaten himself out of the league or anything. It won’t take him long to get in shape. All he has to do is beat out a rookie to get on the field immediately.
by grapejoos on Jun 2, 2008 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the only position that time off
really hurts a player is QB. You saw it with Drew Henson and many other players who decided to play another sport, then try to make a comeback in football and fail miserably.
I don’t think time off from the really athletic positions like RB and CB hurts a player too much.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jun 2, 2008 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he will be fine..
All I am saying it is I think it will take him 4 games before we are seeing the game changing Corner we invisioned when we traded for Pac-man..
If it comes early, I will be pumped!
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on Jun 2, 2008 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
and it’s not like the team is pinning all of it’s hopes on Pacman. He’s a luxury and if he takes a while to get his football recognition back, they have time to get him back up to speed.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on Jun 2, 2008 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think players all face this
physical conditioning from playing lasts maybe a month. After that your real concerns are things like muscle memory and the mental part of the game. No doubt he’ll be rusty for a bit on the field. On the upside, CB is more athletic than cerebral and Pacman is young, so over-exertion injuries are somewhat less of a threat.
If he’s done anything on his own at all he should be fine. And I’m sure they learned all that during the physical they gave him. Now he has months to be ready.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on Jun 2, 2008 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1.....he's been playing DB since high school...you don't lose it by being out for a year...
now that he’ll be here throughout the OTA, mini camps and training camp….there is no doubt in my mind he’ll be ready GAME 1…...nickle CB at least…PR for sure…WR in the works…woooo hoooo
A true diehard Cowboys fan since 1975.
"If you don’t take him off the field as a coach, he will just about die out there," Jerry Jones said. "That impacted my decision. It’s a Michael Irvin-type work ethic. That’s what we are talking about with Felix Jones."
- Owner/G.M of the Dallas Cowboys , Jerry Jones
by BoyzRback on Jun 2, 2008 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
-2
Your body’s soft tissue, especially fast twitch muscle fibers and connective tissues, need time to get ready to fire. And to fire at a rate that the NFL requires is not just something you get back from a single training camp. Evidence guys who have single joint injuries, go through a full camp and still don’t play up to their potential until their body fully recovers sometimes a full season later. While injuries are not the same as layoffs, some of the same things happen to the body from injury downtime.
Pinning our hopes on Pac Man to immediately jump into the nickel and be the savior there is an act of desperation because we don’t HAVE anyone else to plug in who has ever played in the league before. It’s much more likely he adds more immediate value as a returner (I can’t bear to watch Crayton field punts anymore).
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
by 5Blings on Jun 4, 2008 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree PacRat's impact will be more
as a punt returner than a CB this season.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jun 4, 2008 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Read his interview
he works out, he’s running through drills with Deion, he’s doing great in practice. I don’t think he sat around eating Ho-Hos and drinking Mountain Dew. And now he has 3 months to train. People can prep for a marathon ion that time. He’ll be fine.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on Jun 4, 2008 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree totally....I feel he'll be one of our best defenders this year....
He’ll be starting Day 1…...to be continued.
A true diehard Cowboys fan since 1975.
"If you don’t take him off the field as a coach, he will just about die out there," Jerry Jones said. "That impacted my decision. It’s a Michael Irvin-type work ethic. That’s what we are talking about with Felix Jones."
- Owner/G.M of the Dallas Cowboys , Jerry Jones
by BoyzRback on Jun 4, 2008 10:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's back
breaking news…
http://www.dallascowboys.com/news.cfm?id=4B2E04B3-B8DB-0DAE-D3093576FD04E207
T-New, shutting down WR's for Dallas since 2003
by APerfectStar on Jun 2, 2008 4:40 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
WOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOO.....while we are on the subject
I think Pacman will take over and start at Anthony Henry’s spot…......He’s NOT coming back from an injury…...He’s ready to go RIGHT NOW…...with the equal amount of time to prepare as EVERYBODY else on our squad…..
FINALLY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks Jerry….for muscling Goodell into a decision..
A true diehard Cowboys fan since 1975.
"If you don’t take him off the field as a coach, he will just about die out there," Jerry Jones said. "That impacted my decision. It’s a Michael Irvin-type work ethic. That’s what we are talking about with Felix Jones."
- Owner/G.M of the Dallas Cowboys , Jerry Jones
by BoyzRback on Jun 2, 2008 4:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
OK....a slight retraction....I didn't realize this was a limited reinstatement...Henry will remain the starter.....
For now…..
A true diehard Cowboys fan since 1975.
"If you don’t take him off the field as a coach, he will just about die out there," Jerry Jones said. "That impacted my decision. It’s a Michael Irvin-type work ethic. That’s what we are talking about with Felix Jones."
- Owner/G.M of the Dallas Cowboys , Jerry Jones
by BoyzRback on Jun 2, 2008 4:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
great analysis
Good to see some objectivity about our personnel by looking league wide…most fans of any team lack this perspective, and say things like “Chris Cooley is the best TE in the NFL other than Gates…” Here are my thoughts:
1) I think you are refreshingly clear about Newman: he’s great, but is ball skills are so-so (he didn’t play football seriously until his 2nd year of college). He’s like a guy who gets 12-15 sacks but doesn’t cause fumbles. Long overdue as an All-Pro, but not Canton worthy.
2) Henry’s stiff hips mean he’ll never be at 100% for a full season, so it’s always a question of whether he will be come playoff time. I say no, but playing him at safety in our dime packages might not be a bad idea.
3) I think you vastly underestimate Pac Man. In ‘05-’06 he was in the Top 3 CB’s in the game, as he is essentially T-Newman with Henry’s ball skills and a swaggering nastiness that serves him well on the field. I think by week 8 (or about the time Henry is gimpy) Adam will be Pac Man again, and we’ll have the best starting tandem in the league.
4) Whoever is our 3rd CB come December…be it Henry at 90% health, or Scandrick, or Jenkins, that person will be better than Reeves. Reeves lacked elite athleticism and break speed and always had to give cushion to compensate, which smaller and quicker receivers exploited like crazy. Jenkins and probably Scandrick both will make rookie mistakes, but I’m confident that by December they’ll be an upgrade.
by TimSchultz36 on Jun 3, 2008 3:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
No kidding
Funny but probably true
I think by week 8 (or about the time Henry is gimpy) Adam will be Pac Man again, and we’ll have the best starting tandem in the league.
T-New, shutting down WR's for Dallas since 2003
by APerfectStar on Jun 3, 2008 6:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When 53% of the respondents say
Dallas has the top group of CB’s in the NFL over teams with multiple pro bowlers, you have to remember who your audience is on this site. Having said that, thanks for the kind words.
Some questions;
Henry’s lack of fluidity coupled with very good ball skills caused the Dallas staff to consider him for the FS spot. Do you think he’d be a better fit making that transition (a la Rod Woodson) than at CB?
I don’t think Reeves’ issue was speed so much as his inability to read what was happening in front of him. Would you put Pac Man in early at the #3 or let one of the rooks take their best shot?
You mean, Chris Cooley isn’t the best TE in football? :-)
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
by 5Blings on Jun 4, 2008 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
my answers
1) Sure, Henry is a no-brainer for an eventual transition to safety. I think the ‘Boys plan is the same as mine would be: see if Campo can revivify Roy while using Henry, Hamlin, and 4 CBs in the dime package. Plan for Hamlin and Henry as sort of interchangeable coverage safeties in 2009, and assume that the loss in run support is made up for by Thomas>Ayodele.
2) Pac will be #3 early, which is a virtual starter because the nickel takes up 50-60% of snaps. But we have health issues at CB every year, so it makes sense for Jerry to stockpile guys who can cover.
3) Keep up the good posts…
by TimSchultz36 on Jun 4, 2008 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tim you are seriously underestimating the importance of TNews proven ability to take top WRs like Steve Smith and SHUT THEM DOWN. I beleive that he can do that to any wr currently playing in the NFL.
Also I have news for you: any DE that can rack up 12 sacks a season for 8 -10 years WILL GO to the HOF.
by burmafrd1944 on Jun 4, 2008 2:13 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Safety
I don’t think we need him to move to Safety this year. I would like to see him defending the better TE’s though..
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on Jun 4, 2008 6:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
week 1
Winslow is a good start..
"Why everything that's supposed to be bad, Make me feel so good?"
by Wmillion on Jun 4, 2008 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1....He should be covering TE's period....all season long..starting with Winslow.
A true diehard Cowboys fan since 1975.
"If you don’t take him off the field as a coach, he will just about die out there," Jerry Jones said. "That impacted my decision. It’s a Michael Irvin-type work ethic. That’s what we are talking about with Felix Jones."
- Owner/G.M of the Dallas Cowboys , Jerry Jones
by BoyzRback on Jun 4, 2008 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We know Roy can't cover TE's
Watch any Dallas-NYG game in the last 4 years for evidence.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
by 5Blings on Jun 5, 2008 6:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Put whoever on the TE (pref A-Henry)
But let Roy get back to being Roy. The runsupport, break your ribs blitzer whose primary coverage duty is laying out would be, take it inside recievers after the catch with an occasional INT from help D.
Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall. - Confucius
by raynorschiene on Jun 11, 2008 12:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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