Blogging The Boys: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
New Blog: The Boxing Bulletin for Boxing Fans!

'Boys lack Pass-Rush?

Last year, I (along with most people who followed the Cowboys) considered the defense to be great at stopping the run, very good at generating a pass rush, and mediocre to bad in coverage.  As the season went on, it became obvious that the coverage problems revolved around two main guys: Jacques Reeves (Houston has a problem) and Roy Williams.  The Cowboys spent the offseason upgrading the secondary with 2 draft picks and a trade, and could continue this by placing Roy Williams on the hot seat if his coverage doesn't improve this year.  However, by all accounts, this is already a very good secondary, probably top 5 in the league once everyone is healthy (Newman) and practiced (Jones, Jenkins, Scandrick).  So for most of us, the thought of a great defensive coach like Wade Phillips leading this collection of talent means that we'll finally see a domninant defense. I'm excited!

However, this recurring idea keeps popping up over the internet.  Apparently, the Cowboys do not have a very good pass rush.  Ummm...what?  Here are some places I've seen it:

From Bill Simmons:
Postscript: I nearly picked the Cowboys before remembering that they can't rush the passer.
Link

From Peter "Burger" King:
But my feeling is they'll put up enough points to make up for a just-OK pass rush.
Link

I don't understand where this idea came from, but it's surely not from facts, right?  The Cowboys finished the season with 46 sacks, third most in the league.  NE had 47, NYG had 53 (with that fake inflation from the "Winston Justice" game).  Also, DeMarcus Ware tied for 3rd most sacks with 14 (behind Jared Allen-15.5 and Patrick Kerney-14.5) with Ellis' 12.5 sacks tied for 6th most in the league.

So to review, we had the 3rd highest team total for sacks to go along with 2 of the top 6 pass rushers in the league.  But we have a weak pass rush.  Well....okay.

Another user-created commentary provided by a BTB reader.

4 recs  |  Comment 44 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

the only...

down part of our pass rush as this point is the absence of Spencer. In every other way I think we’re going to be better. as mentioned above:

1. Ware and Ellis
2. Better secondary personnel allows for more creative blitz packages and press cover schemes. Also imagine the TE being covered for a change – maybe more coverage sacks from that alone!
3. Better D-line play with returning personnel and Tank having another year to grow into our system.
4. Spencer another year of growth – once he comes back, watch out for the Ware/Ellis/Spencer packages – i think they’ll really be able to create havoc that was evidenced some last year in a small sampling.

by Scoobay on Sep 5, 2008 3:20 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Simmons and King

clearly don’t know what they’re talking about because you don’t end up with 46 sacks without being able to put pressure on the pocket.

In Romo we Trust

by Terry on Sep 5, 2008 4:06 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't understand that BS

We got plenty of sacks to negate that statement. The only scrap of evidence supporting that was the difficulty Dallas had in preventing 3rd down conversions. But I guarantee, with the upgraded secondary giving the front 7 an extra second or two, combined with better play from Spears, Tank, Canty, and Rat (not to mention Ware and Spencer still getting better), there is not going to be a shortage of sacks, pressures, forced fumbles, and tipped passes. This defense is loaded.

T-New, shutting down WR's for Dallas since 2003

by APerfectStar on Sep 5, 2008 4:08 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

guys, lets to a real expert...

this is from the former broncos GM

This is just what Dallas wants to do, force Cleveland to drop back and throw with a QB that missed most of the last month due to a concussion. He’ll also be looking to his primary receiver, Braylon Edwards, who was out almost all of preseason himself with a foot laceration. The two practiced together for the first time in several weeks on Wednesday. The Cowboys slapped 46 sacks on their opponents in ’07, OLB’s Greg Ellis and DeMarcus Ware look to pick up where they left off, then roll in Anthony Spencer (if he’s able to play) and look out.

He seems to think the team generates pressure.

by 325424 on Sep 6, 2008 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

and he says it more clearly..

next quote:

Couple that with the inside power moves of DE’s Marcus Spears and Chris Canty, and you can quickly see why the Cowboys 3-4 defense is so adept at pressuring the passer.

link: http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/09/05/ted-sunquists-week-one-scouting-reports-cowboys-at-browns/

by 325424 on Sep 6, 2008 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

RE guys,lets to real expert...

I gotta say that don’t sound like a GM, to me because I’ve never heard a " " GM of any sports team
Whine and cry about injuries to someone elses team Hey you dope! injuries and stratagey
are part of the game. novel concept huh. . . dou#X$ ! ! !

by Dallas cowboy family 08 on Sep 16, 2008 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

RE I don't understand that BS

Hey APerfectstar,
I definately agree with your excellent post.
Did you see the game on monday.We were excellent.

                                                                    dallas cowboy family 08

by Dallas cowboy family 08 on Sep 16, 2008 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm in the Awkward Position

of defending Bill Simmons, who’s the biggest hack of the huge hack stable at BSPN, but he did predict Dallas would go to the Super Bowl and lose to the Jags. His evaluation of Dallas was actually largely sober and complimentary. The pass rush comment was silly, but otherwise it was a fair writeup of the team.

Of course, like all Patriots fans, he has to trash the Giants and say the have a chance to lose ten games this season. So, by their logic, when New England upsets St. Louis in the Super Bowl, it’s a sign of their gritty determination and courageous heroism; when the Giants upset the New England in the Super Bowl, the other team was just lucky and not any good.

Whatever, tool.

by kindablue on Sep 5, 2008 5:21 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I wasn't trashing Simmons....

…so much as wondering where it was the idea came from (and trying to disprove it thoroughly). I think his pics are terrible and he bases a lot of what he does off of gut feeling, but he makes me laugh so I enjoy it.

In the same way, I generally enjoy Peter King’s work (when he lays off the politics), but he mentioned it, too. Generally when something starts like this, it’s from a respected source. I can’t figure out who that may be.

by GhettoBear04 on Sep 5, 2008 5:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Regarding simmons picks

His wife has beat him two years in a row. She admits she knows little about football and makes picks based on things like "Dallas has better Mexican food than Cleveland " while Simmons trys to infuse tons of logic and research. He has to be pissed about that.

by Billito on Sep 5, 2008 9:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I say let the misconception persist

Who cares if people think we cant get pressure on the QB? I would just assume everyone keep thinking that. Element of surprise and all.

by WB3forMB3 on Sep 5, 2008 6:18 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

+1

How Bout Them Cowboys!

by sprprsnmn on Sep 5, 2008 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bugging me too

I’ve been bothered by those articles all week. Simmons doesn’t really pay attention to anyone except the Patriots, but King actually follows football. I can’t wait until Anderson gets sacked 5 times this weekend.

by rhbgsherb on Sep 5, 2008 6:57 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

These 'experts' problem is the same problem that alot of Cowboys fans have had

They place too much emphasis on sacks by the defensive end. While gushing over Kearney, Allen, Strahan, and Osi….they think that all defenses should have superior pass rushers at DE.

Our pressure comes from the LB’s, which is how a 3-4 should work.

Bottom line is, these two guys are just completely wrong. You don’t finish 3rd in the NFL in sacks without having a strong pass rush.

And to think, we were 3rd with a poor secondary. Just imagine if our secondary can live up to the expectations. That will allow Stewart and Wade to unleash the pressure even more.

by mhuff13 on Sep 5, 2008 7:22 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Maybe that's the problem...

They look at Canty and Spears and think, man, what a crappy pass rush. Still, surely they’ve heard of D-Ware?

Even if we didn’t rush any more LB’s, a greatly improved secondary should result in a few more sacks. At the very least, more checkdowns to RB’s in the flat.

by GhettoBear04 on Sep 5, 2008 8:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Come 'on

Sure there’s some, although very little truth to their picky critisism. I say picky because they can’t say much about our LBs and DBs, so why not DLine?

That said, even though we have DWare and Ellis, we probably need sacks to come from other areas to be considered an Elite Pass Rush Unit. Our Starting Defensive Line combined for 9 sacks last season. That needs to be anywhere 14-18 from the starters and have a 3rd (Spencer?) and possibly 4th DL/LB (Canty? Ratliff? Tank?) in the 6-8 sack range.

62% of our sacks came from two players (94 and 98) and our next biggest threat was Canty (3.5).

Once we get said performance, the only thing Taco King and Co will be able to say about our D is how we’re ugly meanies that hurt quarterbacks and their feelings.

by Victor79 on Sep 5, 2008 8:44 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The problem is they didn't (as far as I know) single out the DL

They simply said we had a bad pass rush. I was just coming up with my theory as to why they think it, that they were focusing too much on our DE’s.

by mhuff13 on Sep 5, 2008 11:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, let's see...

The Giants had 13 from Osi (6 in one game), 10 from Tuck, and 9 from Strahan out of their total 53. Robbins had 5.5 and Kiwanuka had 4.5. So that’s more evenly split up among their top 5 guys.

The Patriots (47 total) had Vrabel-12.5, Green-6.5, Thomas-6.5, and Warren-4.0.

So basically, you have to worry about 2-3 guys on the teams ahead of the Cowboys just like teams that play the Cowboys do. You can argue that too much of the pressure is coming from the OLB’s and not enough from the other players, but I disagree. First of all, it’s their main job (to be a rush LB). Second, look at this:
Canty: 3.5
James: 3.0
Ratliff: 3.0
Spencer: 3.0
Hatcher: 2.0

Considering the limited time for those last two guys, it seems like any time a team is shifting too much protection to block the OLB’s, they get burned by the inside guys. Also, I saw something in a Football Outsider’s column on this week’s matchups saying that D-Ware had the most hurries+sacks last year. At least he’s getting some love from somewhere outside of Dallas.

by GhettoBear04 on Sep 6, 2008 12:50 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think that makes our pass rush that much better

That teams really only have to watch out for 2 guys and we are still able to be 3rd leading team in sacks. Yeah, NE and NY had a more balanced pass rush between more guys, but how cool is it that teams really had to only watch out for 94 or 98 and we were still able to stack up all those sacks.

"So you can’t stiff arm at all? What about the throat?"- Marion "Barbarian" Barber

by DC_fan on Sep 6, 2008 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not sure if this holds water but i will say it out loud.....

could it be one of those feast or famine type situations…..??

i.e. IF we had a rush we got the sack, however if we did not we gave the QB all day and that exaggerated the weaknesses in our secondary….

one of those live by the blitz die by the blitz situations

remember, I am a Cowboy fan, and am just thinking out loud

by stephena on Sep 5, 2008 9:49 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

this is wades second year....

once spencer comes back he’ll be a handfull then i bet they start blitzing bradie and dont forget about our speedy courners that will get a couple…plus tanks been in a full year ….if i was a QB facing dallas defence i’d be ascared to even snap the ball, bodies will be coming from everywhere……..once our secondary settles in f*cking forget about it…..it’s going to be a blood bath…the only teams i see giving us pause are west coast timing offences and the there going to have to throw threw all them arms because you know the coaches will work on them getting there hands up early and often……i see mcnabb getting picked at least twice a game…….thats my $38.02 worth…

I don't need a compass to know which way the wind shines....

by hashishkabob on Sep 5, 2008 11:22 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

and ellis didnt play half the season, if he did...

we had a shot of being 1st in the league, eccspecially if the winston justice game never happened or they finished with half as much sack that game, but we prolly woulda finshed with 50+, cuz Ellis woulda took pressure off Ware too…

by slash on Sep 6, 2008 2:03 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Just ask

Anderson after he has to come out of the game from those BIG HITS!
I see him holding the ice pack by the 3rd qtr.

by bleedn blu on Sep 6, 2008 9:58 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I know we need to get to Eli more often..

That guy loves playing us, he has way to much time back there.

"If you see me up in the mountains with a lion, I ain't lyin
don't help me, help the mountain lion"

by Wmillion on Sep 6, 2008 12:52 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

"Experts" don't know jacks___.

It’s almost impossible for these supposed experts to know as much about every team as they claim, so they just throw a handful at the wall and hope it sticks. I heard someone, I wish I could remember who, saying that Marion Barber had to prove he could run between the 20s and not just in the red zone. Of course, if the guy spent 10 minutes researching, he would see that Barber averaged almost 5 yards a carry. Red zone carries are typically shorter, because they stop counting after you hit the end zone, so he average more than that between the 20s. I think someone here linked to an article that showed he averaged 8 ypc between the 40s. It’s just en vogue to say he has to prove whatever, even though he had over 100 against the Super Bowl champs. They just look at random stats and draft position of starters and give a canned response.

Most posters on this board and every other blog know more about their team than the national “experts.” They just don’t know as much about other teams. The “experts” are the classic, “Jack of all trades, master of none.”

by Baked Potato Soup on Sep 6, 2008 2:05 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

For example:

I probably spend 1-2 hours a day, on average, reading and looking up stuff about the Cowboys. Multiply that by 32 teams, and it’s not possible for these guys to keep up with what is actually going on with every team.

by Baked Potato Soup on Sep 6, 2008 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And here's the big difference...

I’m not gonna pretend that I know you, but I’m willing to bet you don’t get paid to write/talk about sports. These guys do.

I don’t get paid to do it, and I know ALOT about most teams in football, baseball, and basketball (and to some extent hockey).

They get paid millions to do it. And most of them get paid millions to basically follow ONE sport. Don’t give me that crap that it’s not possible for them to keep up with 32 teams. It’s not like they are doing it on the side after doing some real work.

If I can remember the little nuances of every airplane in the Air Force, our allies’ Air Force, and the Navy so that when I refuel them (I’m a boom operator, I refuel them in the air) then Peter King can know what 32 teams can and cannot do. No excuse.

by mhuff13 on Sep 6, 2008 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.

I dunno about the millions, but it’s your job. They can more access than any of us ever will, plus they have staff/research departments to help make their lives easier.

by GhettoBear04 on Sep 6, 2008 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree.

If that were the case, then why are the experts wrong so often? How often were you wrong about a plane in a year, compared to how often experts are wrong about players or teams in a year? If you find 25 guys that do your job, would they all have a clear consensus about the planes and 99% of the time be right? Because every expert is picking teams in different orders of finish, and more often than not, they are wrong. Further, do plane configurations change substantially each year and significantly week to week? You’re comparing relatively static knowledge to fluid knowledge. The experts can’t even agree. If they were all experts, wouldn’t they reach the same conclusion? In my job, real estate appraisals, we have to review other appraisers, sometimes as far as 10 years back. If our numbers are not within 10% of theirs, someone’s either getting disciplined, fired, or blackballed, if not all 3. Apply that to football experts, and we wouldn’t have any left.

by Baked Potato Soup on Sep 6, 2008 8:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's pretty simple

My bosses don’t tell me to only pay attention to certain airplanes.
Plain and simple.

All they care about is NY and Boston. They probably know who the practice squad QB on the Patriot’s 3rd cousin on their stepfather’s side is. Who the 5th guy in the rotation for the Yankee’s Single-A farm team was in 1982.

Yet they don’t know that Dallas was 3rd in the league in sacks.

I mean seriously, how hard is it to look up stats on NFL.com before you write an article? My 4 year old nephew can do that. (and that was directed to the writers, not you)

by mhuff13 on Sep 6, 2008 10:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think we're making the same point.

Maybe I misunderstood your post, but it seems like we agree that many NFL experts are not true experts on the NFL, just on certain aspects or teams. I don’t disagree that if that is their job, they should do better, because my clients would drop my butt if I was wrong or missed facts as often as the experts. Like you said, how hard is it to look something up before you write an article? Shoot, I do it on this board so that I don’t look stupid. Like, if I am going to make a point, I check the stats and reread articles to make sure I sort of know what I’m talking about. I think it’s part of the declining state of journalism, including editorship, and the trend of reporters wanting to be stars.

Maybe a tangent, but when I watched the Cowboys/Viking preseason game, I was quite impressed with the Vikings announcers by their knowledge of the Cowboys backups and preseason story lines. I was thoroughly unimpressed by their announcing skills, though. I also noticed on the Cowboys side that Mickey was being a nuisance, interjecting weird points, stepping on lines, and repeating things that had already been discussed. I think it’s because he got kicked down to the field for Moose and felt unloved. He reminded me of one of my ex-girlfriends when we would go to parties and she felt like I wasn’t paying enough attention to her.

by Baked Potato Soup on Sep 7, 2008 1:56 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm with Stephena

It’s like Stephena said it’s feast or famine because when they don’t get there i mean they really don’t get there. It’s been that way for years now but the thing about it is you can’t just pick out and compare sack stats to justify how well a defense puts pressure on the QB. you can’t name drop, you have to look at how consistently disruptive the front seven is on an every third down passing situation. i think they were middle of the pack statistically last year on 3rd down conversions gave up. i’m sure somebody can look that up. that ain’t all the secondary. notice when wade goes to the nickel on 3rd down and moves ellis and ware to DE and rotates canty and ratliff to DT. You don’t get much consistently from that front. Now there really good, just not great until they find pro bowl DE’s and a pro bowl DT.

by Smashmouth_B on Sep 6, 2008 4:24 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

+1 smash....i agree....our pass rush needs to pick it up this year..

We may have had the 3rd most sacks, but we weren’t the third most disruptive defense last year…..With improved LB(Zack) and Secondary(Jones,Jenkins,Scandrick) personnel….I see us far exceeding last seasons sack total…And even if we don’t, we’ll have much more pressures, and turnovers……….

A true diehard Cowboys fan since 1975.

"If you don’t take him off the field as a coach, he will just about die out there," Jerry Jones said. "That impacted my decision. It’s a Michael Irvin-type work ethic. That’s what we are talking about with Felix Jones."
- Owner/G.M of the Dallas Cowboys , Jerry Jones

by BoyzRback on Sep 6, 2008 7:07 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't see how we weren't disruptive

Ware had 14 sacks, and I swear it seemed about another 12-15 times where he was a breath away from a sack.

by mhuff13 on Sep 6, 2008 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ware is a bonifide Gorilla

no question. I’m just looking at the whole picture saying there is room for improvement. In my opinion the bar for 3-4 defenses is the steelers, chargers and patriots. what all three of those teams have in common that we don’t is a bonifide pass rushing, run stopping DE. it is possible to have one in a 3-4 defense. You look at the career stats of Luis Castillo, Ty Warren, Aaron Smith and Richard Seymour and they have all had at least one 7.5-8 sack season. And they could probably double their breathes away from a sack two which on top of the production of their linebackers, that’s what makes a really bomb defense look and feel different from ours. That’s a whole nother level of production from a position that we don’t even really depend on to get pressure. Imagine moving Luis Castillo, Richard Seymour or Aaron Smith to DT on 3rd down when we go to the 4-down line? OMG scary.

by Smashmouth_B on Sep 6, 2008 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because our secondary scheme was very soft....playing 7-12 yards off the receivers all year...

I am not saying we didn’t provide pressure, but in many cases, nearly 4-5 seconds came and passed and we didn’t have significant push….sure one guy had 14 sacks, the other guy had 12….but what else ?….hardly ever got our blitzer past the line to cause immediate pressure situations, we had sacks, just not as much pressure as some like to think….Way too many QB’s were able to dink and dunk 7-12 yard come backs passes on us all day….granted, with a more aggressive secondary, and maybe some more press and man coverages….we’re going to see lots more havoc than in previous years….It basically had to do with our limited depth at CB…….you followin’ me here ?

A true diehard Cowboys fan since 1975.

"If you don’t take him off the field as a coach, he will just about die out there," Jerry Jones said. "That impacted my decision. It’s a Michael Irvin-type work ethic. That’s what we are talking about with Felix Jones."
- Owner/G.M of the Dallas Cowboys , Jerry Jones

by BoyzRback on Sep 6, 2008 9:25 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Another thing

is that this is only our 2nd year in the Phillips 3-4 .Even Bradie James recently said that last year they were lucky to line up in the correct positions.I think this year,you’ll see a lot more pressure on the QB simply because our players are more familiar with the scheme.

You'll never get in a traffic jam,while going the extra mile. -Roger staubach

by TrueBlue24 on Sep 12, 2008 7:23 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

good point

I expect to see exotic blitzes.

"If you see me up in the mountains with a lion, I ain't lyin
don't help me, help the mountain lion"

by Wmillion on Sep 15, 2008 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

RE know -nothing sports writer

I don’t know what game you were watching last week but the game i watched the
cowboys pass-rushing game looked pretty damn good to me .You know pas-rushing
isn’t all about sacks. If you can force a bad throw, you can cause turnovers. And that
is not rocket science,just football 101 so before gertting diaharea of the mouth,
check your facts.

by Dallas cowboy family 08 on Sep 16, 2008 8:58 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Peter King

I’ve always heard he was one of the most respected sports writers out there, but I’ve just never seen it. It’s not that I disagree with him in general (although I usually do), but he seems to just write complete garbage. How can we sack McNabb four times and have a weak rush??? How can we chase him up and down, actually I should say left and right, and be mediocre at best? I swear he just, flat out, has something against the Cowboys. And how dare he after Jerry Jones lets him sit in his office and eat his popcorn…that’s audacity…I will agree with BoyzRBack, we do let ALOT of medium routes get picked up. Again, that’s something that will work out as the season progresses though.

A lot of haters out there, guys…Isn’t it fun making them all feel dumb!?

by AikmanNailedMySis on Sep 18, 2008 2:27 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Dallas Cowboys blog for the SB Nation network. We talk Cowboys 24/7/365. Join the discussion but follow the community guidelines.
Start posting about the Cowboys »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Mom_s_camera_081_small
A Special 'Thank You' to Grizz.
Small
Garrett DOES Have a Running Problem
Images_small
Playoff Chances: Week 10
Captain_small
NFL Power Rankings - Week 11 - Final Edition
Captain_small
Seven Statistical Nuggets To Take The Edge Off

Recent FanPosts

Villaronga_small
Theismann, head, hole in the ground ...
Small
Cowboys and Redskins at Dallas - A Look Back
Fox-jimmyjohnson_20_3
Are the Redskins the key to the division..?
Avatar_small
Mike Jenkins Bicep Treatment
Small
Anyone scared Watkins must play again...?
Small
It Isn't JUST About December
Small
More Witten please!!!

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Latest NFL Headlines from SB Nation

SPONSORS


Editor

Head_shot1_small Dave Halprin

Lead Writer

Small Rafael Vela

Contributing Writers

Villaronga_small Raul Villaronga

Hotdoglu_small Aaron Novinger

Landry_and_fish_small Mike Fisher