Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Carmelo Anthony, Amar'e Stoudemire Vow To Fit In With Lin

Sympathy for the Devils -- Can Roy E. and T.O. Coexist?

Tony Romo must sometimes feel like Larry from the movie Animal House.  You can just see him in the huddle, with one devil, let's call him T.O., on one shoulder, whispering temptations in his ear.  At the same time, you can see another devil, let's call him Roy E. doing the same:

T.O.:  Throw it!  Throw it to me!  Throw that cross.  Throw that fly!

Roy E.:  Tony, I'm surprised at you!  Throw it at me!

T.O.:  Don't listen to that jackoff!  Look at these hands!  You'll never get a better target!

Roy E.:  If you ignore this magnificent pass catcher, you'll despise yourself forever!

T.O.:  What?  You're throwing to the tight end again!?!

Roy E and T.O.:  You homo!

 

Star-divide


Both of these guys are notorious for calling out their QBs and OCs, on the sidelines and in the press, in the search for more attempts.  It's the sameness of their selfishness -- and that's not necessarily a bad thing in a receiver, mind you -- that probably has Jerry Jones in a similar Larry-like pickle this offseason.  You can just as easily envision Jerrah with an angel on one shoulder -- let's call him Stephen -- and a second on his other shoulder.  Let's call that one Jason:

Stephen:  Cut T.O., Jerry!  Do it!

Jason:  You know you want to!

Stephen:  You'll never get a better chance!

Jason:  If you let that T.O. get his talons deeper into your poor, helpless QB... you'll despise yourself forever!

There are all types of angels and devils hovering about Valley Ranch these days, and that's before we get to Ed Werder and ESPN.  The question is whether Jerry heeds any of these voices and makes a significant wide receiver move? 

The solution is not as easy as it might seem.  Both Terrell Owens and Roy E. Williams have lots of qualities to recommend them.  Both also are football devils;  they have foibles that can wreck coaching careers. 

Williams, nonetheless, is a lock to remain.  Dallas forfeited three draft picks, one of them the 20th overall selection, to get him.  Jones gave him a gaudy long-term deal.  He's set. 

He also proved to be a big disappointment in '08.  Williams averaged a weak 10.4 yards per reception in a Cowboys uniform.  That slots him behind every other Cowboys receiver or tight end who had significant passing attempts:

  • Miles Austin -- 21.1 YPA
  • Terrell Owens -- 15.2 YPA
  • Martellus Bennett -- 14.2 YPA
  • Patrick Crayton -- 14.1 YPA
  • Jason Witten -- 11.2 YPA
  • Roy E. Williams -- 10.4 YPA

I'm willing to give Roy E. a mulligan on '08.  It's difficult for a player switching teams in mid-season to learn and thrive quickly in a new system.  He also had to split time between quarterbacks -- his first three Cowboys starts coincided with Brad Johnson's three woeful starts.  Williams had three respectable games when he played with the pinky-splinted Romo, catching 8 passes for 123 yards, an Owens-like 15.4 YPA.

Then, just as Romo's splint came off, Williams suffered a plantar fascia injury to a foot.  These are very painful and can affect players who rely on explosiveness to do their jobs.  Look at tape from the Steelers game or any other December game.  Williams could not separate from corners and burn up field.  Opponents were content to stick their second corner on him and forget about Roy E.  His only catches came on slants and hitch routes, where he could use his size to box out corners. 

They're tiny sample sizes, but look at the pre-plantar Roy E. and the nail-in-the-heel Roy E.:

  • November:  8 catches, 123 yards, 15.4 YPA
  • December:  8 catches, 37 yards, 4.6 YPA

The first line typifies a quality NFL receiver.  The second line is what you expect from Lousaka Polite.

The bigger question, given all the hubbub surrounding T.O., is whether Dallas got Owens' successor or a slightly less expensive reprise of Joey Galloway's deal?

To answer that question, we need to assess Owens' and Williams' positions on the NFL's receiving totem. 

Star_medium

What is a Number One?

You see the terms thrown around a lot.  "This guy is his team's number one receiver."  "This guy is a number two."  Since the Cowboys paid a steep price for Williams, I first want to determine if they got a player with the skills to be THE primary target.

To guage that, I need to define what makes a number one.  I'm going beyond a receiver's position in his team's passing chart.  For me, a number one is a receiver who can beat top cornerbacks consistently.  He's a guy who can produce even though the opposition is scheming to take him out of the game. 

A number one receiver is consistent Pro Bowl caliber.  I'm not interested in the Hall of the Very Good Here.  I'm talking about the pantheon.

For a clearer statistical measure of a number one, I'm turning to Scientific Football's measure of quality corners and receivers.  KC Joyner now has five full seasons of passing stats to lean upon.  Joyner used to supply a simple core stat, YPA, showing how many times a receiver was called up and how productive he was on those throws.

Last year, Joyner added a second, color-coded metric to his stats.  He had long noted that passing attacks rely on matchups, on pitting your strongest player or players against an opponent's weakest ones.  Last year, he began charting how receivers performed against three levels of cornerbacks -- reds, yellows and greens.

7.0 YPA has been the median for corners and receivers alike, so Joyner used this as his baseline.  Cornerbacks who average 7.0 or less on passes thrown their way make up the red level.  Cornerbacks with YPAs between 7.0 and 9.0 are yellow level, the average middle.  Corners with YPAs over 9.0 are green.  These are the marginal players, the raw rookies or the career 3rd and 4th CBs. 

I'm flipping the numbers for wide receivers.  A WR gets "number one" status in my system if he meets two criteria:

1.  The WR averages more than 7.0 YPA against red-level competition.  This should be obvious.  If red-level CBs hold the opposition to under 7.0 YPA, a WR should be top this figure;

2.  The WR has an overall YPA of 8.5 or greater.  WRs don't always face top corners.  There simply are not that many red-level CBs in any given year.  In '07, only 31 reached that benchmark.  When I averaged CB stats over the four years '04 through '07, I found that only fourteen NFL CBs carried averages of 7.0 or lower.

For this reason, quality receiver should have overall YPAs significantly higher than 7.0, since they're going to face yellow and green-level CBs a lot.  If they can't beat the Anthony Henrys and Jacques Reeves of the world, they're not elite.

My filters produced similar small numbers for WR.  In 2007 33 WRs had overall YPAs over 8.5.  Twenty one of them had YPAs versus red corners of 7.0 or greater.  Only ten receivers were on both lists, though several other big names just missed:

  1. Reggie Wayne
  2. Terrell Owens
  3. Larry Fitzgerald
  4. Roddy White
  5. Wes Welker
  6. David Patten
  7. Braylon Edwards
  8. Marques Colston
  9. Deion Branch
  10. Brandon Stokely

And the near misses:

  1. Andre Johnson
  2. Dontae Stallworth
  3. Jerricho Cotchery
  4. Randy Moss
  5. Chad Johnson

Understand that no single year is definitive.  There are lots of variables that can raise or lower a receiver's numbers.  He could be injured.  His QB could be injured.  His supporting skill position players may be poor or injured.  His offensive line may be weak, etc. etc.  I found extreme fluctuation among the CBs when I created four-year averages and expect the same would be true of receivers.  Even some of the best ones would have a down year in one of the categories.  Take Steve Smith in the '07 totals.  His overall YPA was uncharacteristically low, but he abused top level CBs.  He bounced back with a very strong overall '08.

Because I only have a small body of data to analyze, I'm using these numbers to establish capability:  high numbers in both categories, especially against top CBs, tells me a receiver had the talent to pace his passing attack. 

The '07 numbers are troubling, because they don't cast Roy E. Williams in the best light.  Here are two sets of '07 stat lines.  See if you can tell who they profile:

Table I

Player   Net att.    Yards   YPA    YPA vs. Red CBs
Player A 139 1345 9.7 9.4
Player B 156 1442 9.2 9.1

Table II

Player  Net att.   Yards     YPA   YPA vs. Red CBs
Player C 93 856 9.2 4.9
Player D 101 916 9.1 4.3
Player E 80 760 9.5 2.6

All five players have similar raw YPAs but the first two were outstanding against big time corners.  Their performance remained constant regardless of the opponent or scheme.  The other three had noticeable drop-offs when they got extra attention.  In every case their averages dropped at least 40%.  Player Es' performance dropped out of sight.

Player A is Terrell Owens.  Player B is Larry Fitzgerald.  They and Reggie Wayne had the most impressive overall lines from the year before last.  And the last three?

Player C is Anquan Boldin.  Note that his raw YPA is identical to his teammate's, but there's no comparison when they faced elite cover men. 

Player D is Roy E. Williams.  From a bargain standpoint, it seems that it doesn't make that much difference whether Dallas acquired one or acquired the other.  They seem to be the same player.  The downside to that comparison is that neither had a number one's line, at least not in '07.  Which brings me to Player E.  That's Patrick Crayton's '07 line.  

We can see the benefit Crayton derived playing with an elite receiver and tight end.  Conversely, we can see what happened when he faced those rare secondaries who had a quality second corner.  Taken as a group, I have to ask, would Dallas have significantly improved itself with either Williams or Boldin taking Crayton's place?

Since the question is no longer a hypothetical, I must ask, is Roy Williams capable of performing at Owens' '07 level?

Star_medium

 

Devil or Angel, I Can't Make Up My Mind

"If there is one player I believe is going to have a breakout year in 2007, it's Roy Williams.  Mind you, Williams made a tremendous amount of progress raising his YPA from 7.6 in 2005 to 9.0 in 2006.  [Mike] Martz said the biggest difference in Williams last year was that he finally got it right more than one play in a row...

It wasn't just that Williams got his head in the game either.  Martz emphasizes conditioning because he tends to find a weak spot in a defense and continually go after it, usually with his best player.  Had Williams been out of shape, this would have been hard to do."

-- Roy Williams' profile in Scientific Football 2007

Going into [the week 12 Packers] contest, Williams had five games where he had 11 or more passes thrown to him versus zero for [Calvin] Johnson.  In that game the roles were reversed and Johnson saw fifteen passes to Williams' seven...

Keep that in mind as a reference point for Williams' post-week 12 comment that he didn't feel included in the offense.  It was so bad that Williams actually sat down with Mike Martz and spoke to him about it...

If this was an issue with Williams last year, it could be even more of one this year as the pass volumes drop.  Martz questioned Williams' work ethic before and when that is combined with the political issues, it becomes clear why Detroit was shopping him.  They are tired of dealing with the headache."

-- Roy Williams' profile in Scientific Football 2008

Does that second passage chill you?  The complaints about not seeing balls?  The sit down with the OC.  Sound all too familiar? 

And it raises the question, what happened in '07?  Williams started very well, posting big games against teams with good corners -- the Eagles, Redskins, Bears and Vikings.  Then, in the second half, his game came apart.  Was that promising '06 the fluke, or did Williams, as his supporters contend, simply wear down in the NFL penitentiary that is Detroit?

First, how good was Williams 2006?  Let's put it side by side with his 2007:

Roy Williams   Att.     Yards    YPA   YPA vs. RCBs
2006 152 1363 9.0 7.6
2007 101 916 9.1 4.3

Williams was the real thing in 2006. He hit the marks for a number one -- he topped 9.0 overall and 7.0 against red-level corners.  (This variance shows why I argue for using these numbers to measure a player's potential ceiling, not his absolute value.)  Williams is absolutely capable of being a number one. 

I say that with several caveats.  First, Roy E. needs a position coach who will show him tough love, as his OC Mike Martz did in Detroit.   If Dallas is to see the return of the good Roy, Ray Sherman needs to ride him the way John Garrett rode Martellus Bennett this summer, the way Todd Haley rode Larry Fitzgerald in Arizona. 

I also question whether Roy E can co-exist with T.O.  Look at his '06 attempts -- his 152 throws translates to 9.5 a game.  It's the exact number of throws T.O. got that year.  Now, Todd Haley did manage to keep Owens, Terry Glenn and Jason Witten happy that year.  He threw an average of 9.5 times to Owens, 7.0 times a game to Glenn and 5.6 times a game to Witten. 

Jason Garrett may be able to employ a similar pass blend next year, but that would take throws away from Witten.  With Wade Phillips asking for more rushes in 2009, throws will be fought over more intensely, assuming the skill position personnel remain unchanged.

The bottom line is that Roy E. is most certainly capable of being a number one in Dallas' scheme.  Will Dallas give him that role, or ask him to be a bigger Terry Glenn in their offense? 

A lot will depend on how tolerant the team remains of Owens' baggage. An even bigger question is whether Terrell Owens is still capable of playing at his '07 level?

But I Got Wise... You're the Devil in Disguise!

The short answer is no.  T.O. 2007 versus T.O. 2008*:

Terrell Owens Att. Yards Raw YPA  vs. Red CBs
2007 139 1345 9.7 9.4
2008 124 931 7.5 2.0**

*(Totals are for 14 games, not including the second Redskins and Eagles games.)

**(Red totals are for eight games of Dallas' season.)

These are raw, incomplete totals.  KC Joyner was kind enough to pass them on, despite being weeks away from starting SF '09.  Even though they're incomplete, they suggest somebody in the early stages of a steep decline: 7.5 defines middle of the pack.  That 2.0 average was computed over half a season, but it makes Patrick Crayton's '07 look stellar.

Owens could argue that he didn't have a healthy sidekick for much of the season.  Williams was hurt, as was Miles Austin.  Felix Jones only played in six games and Dallas went through December with Tashard Choice as its only healthy running back.  Owens looked like Superman in camp and he destroyed a very good Eagles secondary in week two.  But the Packers gave him bracket coverage the next week and T.O. faced that nearly every week the rest of the way. He never found a way to shake free.

The counter-arguments, however, accumulate.  Owens himself was never hurt.  He got the same rough number of balls in '08 as in '07.   Romo threw 9.3 passes his way in 2007, and 8.9 passes per game in 2008. 

The truly amazing stat comes against red level competition.  A 2.0 average is horrifying.  A team simply cannot earmark 140-150 passes a season for a receiver who can't evade top-level coverage. 

The NFC East has the highest concentration of red-level corners in football.  The Eagles had two this year in Sheldon Brown and Asante Samuel.  The Redskins had two in perennial Shawn Springs and Carlos Rogers.  New York's Corey Webster had an elite season. 

If you don't have it any more, the division will expose you in a hurry, and this year Owens was exposed. 

Was '08 an anomaly?  Here are Owens' raw YPAs the last five years:

  • 2004 -- 9.3  - Philly's Super Bowl year;
  • 2005 -- 8.7 -- the Eagles suspend T.O.
  • 2006 -- 8.0 -- T.O. and Todd Haley/Parcells;
  • 2007 -- 9.7
  • 2008 -- 7.5

To my eyes there's a slow, but definite decline starting in '05, the year the Eagles cut him loose.  '07 was the year of Wade and Jason, when he was free of Reid, McNabb, Parcells and Haley.  T.O. responded, but if you're running the Cowboys, do you trust the one great year or the four declining ones?  Which one(s) is/are more likely to predict '09?

Will the Cowboys brass dismiss this as the product of scheme, of a failure to properly use Owens?  Or will they conclude that he's begun the inevitable decline?  How much will his overbearing personality factor into the team's ultimate decision?

Which devil has your ear, Jerry?

 

Comment 277 comments  |  5 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

FIRST!

Celebrity or Imposter?
YOU Decide...
http://www.xanga.com/metaltometal/689036052/celebrity-or-imposter/

by silverblue5 on Jan 19, 2009 9:12 PM CST reply actions  

This season and its dissapointments...

could work out for the best. I heard numerous times from both staff and players last off-season that continued to go back to the “well we were 13-3 in the regular season” and that “we lost to the Super Bowl champs” in the playoffs. Excuses were too easy for EVERYBODY, coaches and players alike.

The SB ring was on a silver platter being served up by Emporer Jerry Jones this year after Week 3’s GB game, and all we had to do was show up and the other teams would tremble and crumble in fear right in front of us, right? HA!

As it turns out, our team is pretty damn mediocre but with a lot of potential. TO or no TO… Roy E. Superstar Williams or Roy E. Average Williams… we have a potentially great trio of RB’s. We have a young defense. Maybe some of the older “leaders” will realize what opportunity is knocking right on the other side of next season’s door. Or maybe it will continue to seem like us bloggers care more about the team than the team does…

I’m 50/50 on TO, b/c I am not in the lockerroom. I’m optomistic for Roy E as well. But those are individuals, they will be 1 of 52 players that dress on game-day next year. Injuries and cuts may happen.

We will just move forward together as a team… b/c that will be the only choice at that time. But, personally, I’d be itching for a new year after a 9-7 disaster of a season than a 13-3 dominating season.

by commoncents on Jan 20, 2009 11:34 AM CST up reply actions  

Turns out

they lost to this years Super Bowl winner to. All that really does is make you a loser. I want them to look at it as an opportunity to improve instead of an excuse to stay the same.

When did I become a Cowboy fan? When my mom told me I was.

by GunsUp on Jan 20, 2009 12:05 PM CST up reply actions  

I know,

but I had to work with what I had. Maybe next time you could post like I think? JK, We do agree their attitude towards themselves and their performance needs to change.

When did I become a Cowboy fan? When my mom told me I was.

by GunsUp on Jan 20, 2009 12:09 PM CST up reply actions  

haha

i’m mopping what your spilling

by commoncents on Jan 20, 2009 12:13 PM CST up reply actions  

Glad someone

is, cuz I tend to make a big mess.

When did I become a Cowboy fan? When my mom told me I was.

by GunsUp on Jan 20, 2009 12:14 PM CST up reply actions  

PS

Awesome write-up as always Raf, I don’t always post but check the site everyday b/c of the writer’s here.

by commoncents on Jan 20, 2009 11:39 AM CST up reply actions  

Love the breakdown and analyses, Raf

Looks like Red Ball has his work cut out for him next season.

Lots of RB and WR and TE weapons.

The only thing really needed on “O” is to shore up the O-Line with some depth.

Celebrity or Imposter?
YOU Decide...
http://www.xanga.com/metaltometal/689036052/celebrity-or-imposter/

by silverblue5 on Jan 19, 2009 9:13 PM CST reply actions  

JG couldn't do it this year

he won’t do it next year either. He’s very blahh…

by Longhorn on Jan 19, 2009 9:28 PM CST up reply actions  

-1

He did it the year before. How do you know which one was the fluke and with experience JG will only improve.

"Ask Philly was it hard tryin' a stop TO, he da main reason that the fans would come fo'."

by aussie_cowboy on Jan 19, 2009 10:27 PM CST up reply actions  

+1

This year it took to the Redskins game, how long will it take this year

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 12:25 AM CST up reply actions  

So I guess

the nine wins this year were because of the players and the seven losses were on the coaching staff, right?

Keep doing what you been doing, keep getting what you been getting.

by OskieOskie on Jan 20, 2009 12:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Great writeup......

……but, it doesn’t make me feel good about our situation going into next season.

by rhbgsherb on Jan 19, 2009 9:33 PM CST reply actions  

Raf

Unreal, that write up was amazing.

by joey7289 on Jan 19, 2009 9:35 PM CST reply actions  

Green Bay has 3 solid receivers

Jennings is becoming elite, and Nelson looked very good for a rookie.

by Mandmeisterx on Jan 19, 2009 9:57 PM CST up reply actions  

true i forgot bout Jennings.

Don't believe everything you think.

Your causes are cute!!!

by stoproyce on Jan 19, 2009 10:13 PM CST up reply actions  

Don't think Childress would want to reunite with Owens

Remember their OC/WR days in Philly?

Celebrity or Imposter?
YOU Decide...
http://www.xanga.com/metaltometal/689036052/celebrity-or-imposter/

by silverblue5 on Jan 19, 2009 10:13 PM CST up reply actions  

WHat would you want in return

Your not getting anything other then a 4 for him. Teams would be dumb to give up anything else.

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 12:26 AM CST up reply actions  

TO will be fine...

that 2.0 average includes the 3 games started by Brad Johnson right? Those games should be thrown out of any statistical analysis. Also a question on the numbers does it all take into account safety help over the top/double coverage? I feel like it is more difficult to take on a green level corner and a safety over the top versus just a red level corner.

by rangerjake on Jan 19, 2009 9:50 PM CST reply actions  

How much of that blame do you put on Garrett for not motioning him

and doing other things to help him avoid jams at the line? I mean, I don’t put all of this blame on Garrett, because I think that if you are truly an elite receiver, you should be able to beat press coverage, and you should be able to beat bracket coverage. Fitzgerald does it on a regular basis. That being said, I still think you have to make every effort you can to put your best players in the best positions to make plays.

PS Great writeup

by Mandmeisterx on Jan 19, 2009 10:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Just to clarify, Raf

Joyner’s 2008 numbers on T.O. against top cornerbacks don’t include the last eight games of the season, like the huge 49ers game and the two good games against Seahawks and Eagles? Am I reading that right?

by DavidH22 on Jan 19, 2009 10:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Not sure

He told me he had eight games but didn’t say which ones. If I said the first eight games in the story I may be in error. He does not watch all games in sequence. He did tell me today he’s almost done with all 16 Dallas games. The 7.5 stat was fresh from the oven, so to speak. I’ll get a fuller vs. Red numbers later this week, probably.

by Rafael Vela on Jan 19, 2009 10:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Thanks

I imagine even if all 16 games are included, his average against top CB’s is probably not that good.

by DavidH22 on Jan 19, 2009 11:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Not too impressed with this gauging model.

This Joyner clown puts these numbers together how ? by reviewing every single passing play of every coaching tape from every game of every team ??? I find that extremely difficult to believe.

does he take into account double teams as opposed to one on one matchups ??

I only know of one game this year where TO was able to match up one on one, and we all know what that produced ? 216 receiving yards against an all pro level CB in Nate Clements ??

nuff said

It sounded like an editorial of a fan that doesn’t like TO nor was too happy with the Roy Williams trade to me.

by CowboysRnumba1 on Jan 20, 2009 12:09 AM CST up reply actions  

Well, unfortunately he will not see that coverage again

or do you like one good game out of 16?

This post only reveals what has been long obvious to many of us, the time has finally come to eat the contract, or find some idiot GM who’ll pay half and give us a 4th rounder or something, if we’re lucky.

by Realist Larry on Jan 20, 2009 12:13 AM CST up reply actions  

He does watch tape of every single play of every single game

whether you believe it or not is your business.

But until you provide a better alternative, I’m taking his stats.

by Rafael Vela on Jan 20, 2009 12:47 AM CST up reply actions  

well, call me impressed then.

I would like to have a break down on what he considers the difference between targets, and balls throw in the general direction of a player, and if the ball is beyond catchable, does he still consider that a target ? or he can chaulk that up to a QB throw away. Ask him that, I’d like to know his formula for differentiating catchable balls, and labeling targets.

by CowboysRnumba1 on Jan 20, 2009 7:52 AM CST up reply actions  

That's right!

Don’t let facts get in the way of your preconceived opinions.

by NCCowboy on Jan 20, 2009 7:52 AM CST up reply actions  

They're only facts if you believe in the formula or system used to obtain data. As they are surely debateable and unofficial NFL stats.

Not that i question the guys efforts, but i know little of proccess used to form his statistical standards.

A for instance:

If TO is being double teamed, IT is more than likely he won’t have the opponents best CB manning him up at the line, as they’d more than likely use CB 2 or 3 to man him, while using a FS to shadow over to his side, this leaving the opponents #1 to go single coverage elsewhere.

get it ??

by CowboysRnumba1 on Jan 20, 2009 8:01 AM CST up reply actions  

This is what I get

Owens is a player definitely in decline. He has lost his explosiveness, which combined with his bad hands and poor route-running, means that unless a team pulls a 49er brain cramp and plays 7-8 yards off of him, he can’t do much. Combine this with his selfishness (perfectly captured by his stock phrase, “I love me some me”), and his being late to meetings (see DMN today) and when he is there for meetings, falling asleep, and it is beyond me how any serious Cowboy fan would want to retain him. He is the Dennis Rodman of the NFL.

by NCCowboy on Jan 20, 2009 8:08 AM CST up reply actions  

5

2 with Pistons and 3 with the Bulls… Led the NBA in rebounding in all most everyone of those seasons and played abosulte shut down defense on the low block for most of his career.

Jordan btw, won 6. :)

0 = The number of Super Bowls the Eagles have won.

by gee-roj on Jan 20, 2009 8:21 AM CST up reply actions  

Was he really not motioned?

I think that’s overblown.

The playbook didn’t change much from the year before.

by Rafael Vela on Jan 19, 2009 10:05 PM CST reply actions  

Which is why teams

Found it a lot easier to take out TO knowing what is coming.

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 12:28 AM CST up reply actions  

there really aren't that many different plays in the NFL

game film matters but not as much as quality execution. A lot of quality former recievers (Rice) say TO has sloppy routes. You’ll never get open with bad routes, especially when your hands are already mediocre.

by AustonianAggie on Jan 20, 2009 11:37 AM CST up reply actions  

Rice is the only one.

Everyone can stop saying every top receiver because it’s been one. And if that is the case why does the dude still catch for 1000 yards if he has such mediocre hands?

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 2:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Although its also true that TOs technique could use some improvement.

He still puts up good numbers because he is one of the most gifted athletes ever to play WR. But his hands and route running are not very good.

"Ask Philly was it hard tryin' a stop TO, he da main reason that the fans would come fo'."

by aussie_cowboy on Jan 20, 2009 5:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Regardless of whether he was or not

He used to be the big physical receiver that didn’t get jammed so easily

by witten82 on Jan 20, 2009 11:33 PM CST up reply actions  

AWESEOME WRITE UP

I have been following from boys blog, bsr and now btb, this is arguably the best I have seen yet.

Secondly, stop trying to pick apart the stats and make excuses, (aimed towards those that say throw out this or that), a variable is a variable, take it all in context. TO was not the only WR subject to bad qb play, yada yada yada. They are what they are, and you can make stats say what you want, but Raf is not that kind of manipulator. Looks like TO is on the decline, and we severely need Roy to step up to his pro bowl year. I was undecided on whether I think TO should go or stay, but after reading this I am pretty confident the team will be better off without him.

by TONYINCC on Jan 19, 2009 10:05 PM CST reply actions  

I'm going to play advocate here for a second

There’s a lot of churn year to year on receivers. They will have bad years, just as good ones do.
Let’s look at his last five years:

’04 — 9.3
’05 — 8.7
’06 — 8.0
’07 — 9.7
’08 — 7.5

That’s Philly, Dallas, Reid, Haley and Garrett. His peak was in ‘07 and his worst year was last year.
If he were not 35, I wouldn’t sweat it. But what if it is?

by Rafael Vela on Jan 19, 2009 10:16 PM CST up reply actions  

I meant they have bad ones, just as good CBs do. It's a speed and quickness position

a lot of things can throw you off. I’m sure Terence Newman’s numbers this past year were awful and they’ve been excellent the previous four years. An injury can throw you off.

I also meant to say that T.O. would probably get the benefit of the doubt — and still might — were he not a pain in the ass. But that may be the tipping point. We’ll see.

by Rafael Vela on Jan 19, 2009 10:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Come to think of it

that five year chart shows a slow and steady decline starting in ’04, with a monster ’07 offsetting the drift.

What was Vince Sculley’s line, “is this the flicker before the flame goes out?”

by Rafael Vela on Jan 19, 2009 10:25 PM CST up reply actions  

But, RAF

he WASN"T injured!

And he IS older!

The truth is so easy to see, but so many of you want to believe that at age 36 he’s going to do better next year.
And not be a ‘headache’ when this team loses.
And coexist peacefully w/Roy Williams, our new problem.

If only I could sell real estate on this site!

by Realist Larry on Jan 20, 2009 12:16 AM CST up reply actions  

+2

Take off the rose colored glasses aussie

by just4fun on Jan 20, 2009 2:03 AM CST up reply actions  

A bad influence in the locker room...

TO’s decline is one issue but his influence on younger players is the most troubling thing about him this year and would be the straw that breaks the camel’s back in my opinion. He wasn’t up to his usual sideline rants this year but instead quietly undermined Romo, Witten and Garrett with his “loyal subjects” like Crayton and Williams. He talks about “rats” in the locker room but he need only look in the mirror to see one of the biggest.

If you want to fix what’s wrong with the Cowboys the best way to start is to get rid of the dissent in the locker room and bring in players with a “team” attitude. The next step is to change the culture but that would required a coaching change which, unfortunately, doesn’t appear to be on the horizon.

Garrett needs to get a clue!

by BulletBob on Jan 20, 2009 12:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Dean Wormer's daughter...?

Was that who Larry’s angel and devil were talking about?

Good stuff…
.
1) Do the teams personell staff use this same kind of analysis? If not, they should, if they do TO’s gone.

2) If the angel and devil on Jerry’s shoulders are a) Stephen (son and future owner/GM) and b) Jason Garrett (highest paid OC and HC in waiting?) AND both are saying F*** him, go Jerry, do it!! TO’s gone.

"He has a peculiar felicity of expression." John Adams

by Jim Vance on Jan 19, 2009 10:08 PM CST reply actions  

I don't think Witten would complain too much

about not getting thrown the ball 9-10 times a game. It’s the two receivers who bitch and moan. I am seriously concerned about having two primadonnas on the same team, especially with a QB whose psyche most of us are questioning. Even Crayton is a big mouth!

What I wouldn’t give for a Larry Fitzgerald, or a Calvin Johnson, or an Andre Johnson. What I find so impressive about those three is that they were drafted so high (I believe all Top Three overall picks) and yet have performed up to and beyond expectations and have been decent citizens, despite all three having less-than-optimum professional surroundings.

by DavidH22 on Jan 19, 2009 10:14 PM CST reply actions  

Hey, Dallas tried, with all three guys

— They were considering A. Johnson in ‘04, but he was taken just ahead of them and they took Newman.
— They talked to Detroit about trading up for C. Johnson but Matt Millen asked for Demarcus Ware, so that was a short phone call.
— They were looking at a way to get Roy E. or one of the Arizona guys last year before T.O.’s roster bonus was due but they couldn’t make a deal work. Remember that Philly and Washington were also in the race to Detroit and Arizona probably figured they could up the ante until somebody made a crazy deal. Didn’t happen.

But with Fitz, it was clear Arizona never wanted to deal him. It was only an issue because they gave him an awful original deal and were on the hook for something like $15 or $18 M in one year if they didn’t tear it up and start over. They did.

by Rafael Vela on Jan 19, 2009 10:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Great write up

I love the statistical analysis, although by only including the first half of the season, which had BJ as qb for three games, TO’s numbers might be off.

"Ask Philly was it hard tryin' a stop TO, he da main reason that the fans would come fo'."

by aussie_cowboy on Jan 19, 2009 10:30 PM CST reply actions  

I was about to say...

Something smelled fishy in those stats until you got to the end and showed TOs performance against top corners in 08. It just wasn’t passing the smell test. Mr. Owens WAS shut down by top corners in 08. (and some not so top corners) What’s more, we were ALL saying it early in the season, and he still never got it together. Was it diminishing skills, or circumstances? Probably a little of both, but at some point in the season, you would have thought TO would get it back together, and torch defenses like he used to. He never did…all season long. Except for his one 200 yard game, he just didn’t pass the smell test this year. Yes, Romo wasn’t himself, and we had three stinkers from Brad, but it was more than just a few poor throws. The question is; do we really want to chance the diminishing skills for another year, and risk further locker room turmoil? To me, its just not worth a few extra touchdowns. And I’d guess Felix Jones to be the next star of this offense, not Roy E. Personally, I’d like to see us use the three headed monster with Felix, Tashard, and Marion, and a second three headed monster with Roy E. Witten and Bennett. Sprinkle in a little Austin, Hurd, and Crayton, and just keep those defenses guessing all season long.

The gods are just, and of our pleasant vices make instruments to plague us.
William Shakespeare

by Lunging Wolf on Jan 19, 2009 10:48 PM CST reply actions  

Interesting

but, I still think Roy Williams has his best season’s ahead of him.

You can talk about player A, B, C,D,E but one had Kitna and some of the others had Romo..

Kitna vs Romo no comparison. He will be fine next year with our franchise qb delivering the mail.

I guarantee TO isn’t having his 07 season on the Lions.

"Protect the Romo, Save the Cowboys!!"

by Wmillion on Jan 19, 2009 10:49 PM CST reply actions  

He got a talented partner in '07

and he couldn’t handle it.

Hey, he had a great year WITH Kitna. What’s his excuse for regressing?

by Rafael Vela on Jan 19, 2009 10:51 PM CST reply actions  

Kitna stinks

The O-line was horrible and he got hurt. Even in Kitna best season there he had almost as many int’s as TD’s, that let’s you know how many off target balls Kitna throws.

"Protect the Romo, Save the Cowboys!!"

by Wmillion on Jan 19, 2009 11:03 PM CST up reply actions  

He has none

He can’t beat press coverage or double coverage either.

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 12:30 AM CST up reply actions  

I think he can have big years in the future

but his foibles are what made him available in the first place. If he was Larry Fitzgerald there’s no way the Lions would have shopped him.

by Rafael Vela on Jan 19, 2009 10:52 PM CST reply actions  

I agree

The headache aspect is disturbing. Tough to know how frustrating playing for the worst franchise in the league can be.

"Protect the Romo, Save the Cowboys!!"

by Wmillion on Jan 19, 2009 11:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah I think alot of WR would get fed up with playing in Detroit

"Ask Philly was it hard tryin' a stop TO, he da main reason that the fans would come fo'."

by aussie_cowboy on Jan 20, 2009 12:32 AM CST up reply actions  

I can see

Roy developing, but only with TO out of the picture.

Keep doing what you been doing, keep getting what you been getting.

by OskieOskie on Jan 20, 2009 12:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Question on net attempts

Is it the number of times the QB threw a catchable ball to the receiver or the number of times thrown in the receiver’s direction?

by ym on Jan 19, 2009 11:03 PM CST reply actions  

Foot on the throat

Fantastic write-up! It exposes some things that I hadn’t realized about RW and TO. I know I may sound like a broken record. But I think the answer for both players is the foot-on-the-throat approach.

T.O. is still one of the fastest receivers in the league. Based on training camp reports, he hasn’t slowed down. He is a physical target who can run after the catch. I think his poor ‘08 number can be explained by the fact that Springs exposed him by showing he couldn’t get off the press. There is no reason why that should remain a weakness. With T.O.‘s incredible athleticism, he can learn the techniques (like a pass rusher or a gunner on punts) to swim past Corners and get into his pattern quickly. The question is whether T.O. is willing to learn a new trick during the offseason (or will he continue to spend the offseason showing off his ability to win footraces with our corners?) . A tough-love approach will also help with T.O.’s perceived laziness. If he is held accountable (maybe fined) for every play where he runs a sloppy route or gives up on a route, he may improve in these areas too. He will never have great hands. But he’s put up some amazing numbers with his average hands. If he can overcome his problems with press coverage and can run good routes every time, I have no doubt he can return to his ’07 form.

This is a volatile situation for the Cowboys. T.O. and RW are both potential cancers for this team (in RW’s case, a long-term cancer who influences the work habits of the marginal players on the team). But both can also be superstar contributors IF the team sees that the coaches are in charge and are driving them hard to improve.

by JimmyJohnson on Jan 19, 2009 11:10 PM CST reply actions  

At age 35 Owens is going to suddenly become coachable

and learn new tricks?
Ha!
He’s gotten by on pure physical talent, which overcame poor concentration, rocky hands, and bad route running.
Now he’s getting old, and his dropoff will be dramatic.

by Realist Larry on Jan 20, 2009 12:20 AM CST up reply actions  

I dont think its unreasonable to expect him to improve some aspects of his game, especially relating to technique.

While I dont think he will improve his catching, I would think he will work very hard at beating press. I obviously dont know him, but if it was me and all I heard last year was that I couldnt beat the press and was ‘over the hill’, I would work as hard as I could to prove everyone wrong.

"Ask Philly was it hard tryin' a stop TO, he da main reason that the fans would come fo'."

by aussie_cowboy on Jan 20, 2009 12:35 AM CST up reply actions  

He has pride

I would show him his YPA vs. Red corners. I would tell him that the league figured him out. Then I’d show him video of Jerry Rice and Randy Moss beating press coverage. Does he want to spend the rest of his career being owned by every good corner?

Everybody knows he works hard in training and practice. But from what I’ve seen, he gears his work toward his strengths. All he needs to do is channel that work ethic toward his weakness – a weakness that is very easily overcome. The question is whether our coaches will dwell on his weaknesses and challenge him. If not, they might as well cut him.

by JimmyJohnson on Jan 19, 2009 11:19 PM CST up reply actions  

+1 Pride could be a major factor

One would get sick of hearing they are ‘past it’ and couldnt beat press coverage

"Ask Philly was it hard tryin' a stop TO, he da main reason that the fans would come fo'."

by aussie_cowboy on Jan 20, 2009 12:36 AM CST up reply actions  

I doubt he is going to adapt to a new technique

Maybe we can give him one more year. After another lousy year, cut him. Or even in the middle.
Seeing Roy’s number makes me even more mad that we got him.

by ym on Jan 19, 2009 11:29 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not too upset

1st round WRs are a crapshoot. WR has the highest bust rate of any position in football.
This year’s free agent crop is awful.

The flaw isn’t getting Williams, IMO, it’s not getting him before they gave T.O. the extension. I know they tried hard to get him or one of the Arizona guys and just couldn’t swing it.

by Rafael Vela on Jan 19, 2009 11:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Hearing is mouth flap makes me even more mad.

We may finally be rid of me-first TO, but JJ went and got Mini-TO to take his place.
Ugh.

by Realist Larry on Jan 20, 2009 12:22 AM CST up reply actions  

Wait until RW2 has success in Dallas

You won’t hear him complaining. At least until contract extension time.

Of course, I’m assuming he will have success in the next few seasons if he stays healthy.

He has the same physical attributes as Fitz, but he needs to take his preparation and mentality up a notch or two.

T-New, shutting down WR's for Dallas since 2003

by APerfectStar on Jan 20, 2009 1:06 AM CST up reply actions  

chemistry doesn't start with players

It starts with the head coach. An environment of discipline must be created first.

by just4fun on Jan 20, 2009 1:12 AM CST up reply actions  

Explain Plaxico Burress under that theory

Coughlin may have surpassed BP in the hard ass coach category, yet the Midgets put up with Burress constantly flouting the rules in the organization’s face. Not only that, but then they sign him to an even bigger contract extension before he shoots himself. Now the QB and others are seriously saying they’d welcome him back next season (as if he will be available)

I think certain players don’t give a darn about discipline. They know as long as they are a big enough asset to the team, they aren’t going to get cut, and can see who will blink first, them or the coach who is more likely to get fired for losing games while the player sits on the bench.

T-New, shutting down WR's for Dallas since 2003

by APerfectStar on Jan 20, 2009 1:27 AM CST up reply actions  

That's a good example

His behavior didn’t result in team blowing up. And he was suspended for flouting the rules earlier in the season. Because of the environment of discipline they were able to make the playoffs and win the NFC east. The lost of him on the field is what hurt the team, not distraction, and lack of focus. Don’t look for him to be a Giant again. The players say they want him back…….. not the coaches.

by just4fun on Jan 20, 2009 1:35 AM CST up reply actions  

Nice job

Turning my own argument against me. But, my example was for the purpose of showing that some players (TO, Burress) know they don’t have to follow the rules of a disciplinarian type coach.

Burress got suspended by the team early in the season, but he still ended up getting in even more trouble and dragging a teammate into his legal mess. I think they really started to fall apart after that. They still won the division, but that was more because the rest of the teams were already too far behind to catch them.

T-New, shutting down WR's for Dallas since 2003

by APerfectStar on Jan 20, 2009 2:53 AM CST up reply actions  

The same drop off the Giants had after Plax was gone, is the same drop off this team will have if TO is gone.

mark my words. Some people just don’t realize just how important he is to making this offense work properly.

by CowboysRnumba1 on Jan 20, 2009 8:15 AM CST up reply actions  

That tired comment is just such BS

Did you read the post above? The facts/figures? This team has many more skill position players that will more than make up for the distraction that is TO. Tell me who the super star receivers were on the Patriot SB winning teams? TB when they won? Balt when they won? Pitts when they won?

by StillHateTheGiants on Jan 20, 2009 9:19 AM CST up reply actions  

not true

Cowboys have much more offensive talent to compensate for T.O.’s loss than the Giants have without Plaxico.

In Romo we Trust

by Terry on Jan 20, 2009 10:43 AM CST up reply actions  

We scored

23 points against the Redskins in the first game where T.O. was targeted 20 times and lost. Plax is successful because he is not the focal point of that offense. They spread it around and use three backs. I want that

by cow_fanatic on Jan 20, 2009 10:44 AM CST up reply actions  

thanks cow for proving my point...It's the OC that decided to throw 48 times against Wash.

check that, It was Romo who blew off the calls, and audibled into passing plays then forced balls to covered receivers.

by CowboysRnumba1 on Jan 20, 2009 12:44 PM CST up reply actions  

What drags blogs like these down . . .

are people who insist on making arguments based upon bogus, made-up facts, such as: Romo blew off calls and audibled into passing plays. Pure fantasy island.

by NCCowboy on Jan 20, 2009 1:02 PM CST up reply actions  

If you were an informed blogger, you would know the facts my friend !!!

Ask anyone in the know on this blog site if Romo audibled out of running plays, and called passing plays instead during the first Washingtom game this past season !!!!!!!!! Jason Garrett HIMSELF said so. He took no blame for the 11 rushing plays called in that game, and said Romo audibled out of many called running plays !!!! …any help here ? Grizz ? Raf ? Am I mistaken with my memory here ? Did noone else not see Garrett on national TV and in print proclaim the FACT that Romo called off his running plays, and audibled into passing plays ?

Can someone with any memory whatsoever collaberate my story to get this guy in the know and off my back.

You may not know me guy. BUT one thing is for certain, I don’t write anything I can’t back up with facts !!!.

by CowboysRnumba1 on Jan 20, 2009 2:26 PM CST up reply actions  

No youre right

"Ask Philly was it hard tryin' a stop TO, he da main reason that the fans would come fo'."

by aussie_cowboy on Jan 20, 2009 5:35 PM CST up reply actions  

And here is the facts to back up what I say...

so go check the luggage Tatoo. Cuz Daddy brought home the groceries.

http://www.dallascowboys.com/news/news.cfm?id=AFFCC2AD-FFB7-3E2E-54DF9A6AF3D6BE7C

by CowboysRnumba1 on Jan 20, 2009 2:40 PM CST up reply actions  

hmm...bad link

Either cut and paste entire link or go to:

 DallasCowboys.com –
articles-
archives-
Story-
Did Redskins force the pass, or did Dallas ? 09-29-2008 4:19 p.m

by CowboysRnumba1 on Jan 20, 2009 2:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Congratulations!

You have provided for yourself specific proof to negate all your mindless, yet so self-assured, ramblings on this blog that the entire fault of the Cowboys offense rested on the playcalling of Jason Garrett. Perhaps now you can contemplate the fallibility of your own reasoning, open your mind, and consider other possibilities as to why a season that began with so much promise turned out so poorly.

by NCCowboy on Jan 20, 2009 2:49 PM CST up reply actions  

It's personal attacks of other bloggers knowledge, intelligence, and ability to come to opinions based on facts.

That gets you kicked off blogs like this one. Isn’t that so Grizz ?

mindless rambling ?
open my mind ?

Because I don’t agree that it was TO’s fault that the team underperformed ?

Because of my assertion that Jason Garrett would have been fired as offensive coach of my high school team if he had made similiar calls and lacked game planning ability?

And use of such big words make you out to be more intelligent than I figured you for, You should keep it up, and end your rediculous witch hunt trying to find fault in my fact filled comments.Cuz you can’t out research me, you can’t out fact me, and you surely don’t know more than me.

You entirely blame TO for the failures of the entire team, let alone the pitiful offense displayed this past season, and you’ll never get me on board with the whole cut TO saga now pasted all over this blog site. So stop trying.

You got your opinion of TO and Garrett, and I have mine.

TO makes this offense.

Garrett sucks.

And I stick to my guns.

by CowboysRnumba1 on Jan 20, 2009 3:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Everyone relax didly didly (said w/ ned flanders voice)

Everyone is in entitled to the POV as to why this team failed. Truth is more than one thing was the reason.

I personally think that Garrett did a terrible job as OC this year but I’m willing to concede that he may have looked at lot better if the Cowboys offensive line wasn’t so, offensive this year.

0 = The number of Super Bowls the Eagles have won.

by gee-roj on Jan 20, 2009 3:32 PM CST up reply actions  

I totally agree, If the line played better, maybe some of his calls would have worked.

Maybe if Romo prepared better in practice, and didn’t have to dance around with happy feet, some of his errant throws would have been completed or not thrown to thee opposing team. Maybe if TO didn’t drop as many balls, he would have had 1,300 yards and led the league in TD’s, Maybe if Felix Jones, and the rest didn’t get injured we’d be playing next week.

I’m just tired of the constant put downs of individuals on this team. IT was a team effort that we failed so miserably, and I’m willing to give the whole team a mulligan. But it’s just bitch bitch bitch….I got the Senior Bowl, FA, and the Draft to think of, I’m tired of all this nay saying garbage. You can blame Jerry, Wade, Garrett, TO, Romo, RW2, Kosier, Witten, all of them….enough with the finger pointing.

I’ll express my view everyday. If your going to tar and feather a player, and call for his head, you better come with factual reasons why, or you’ll hear my scorn, and rebuttal.

I’m not on here attacking peoples opinions, or questioning factual evidence, or calling anyone crazy or mindless for their opinions. I may not agree with others at times, but i’ll counter with my opinions all day. everyday, and I appreciate my opinions being respected. Disagree all you want, but come back with something worth while to debate me.

by CowboysRnumba1 on Jan 20, 2009 3:44 PM CST up reply actions  

+1

"Ask Philly was it hard tryin' a stop TO, he da main reason that the fans would come fo'."

by aussie_cowboy on Jan 20, 2009 5:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Don't be so quick to judge

Give him a year, we don’t know how bad he was injured, and he really hasn’t complained that much considering the locker room he came in to.

by just4fun on Jan 20, 2009 1:10 AM CST up reply actions  

chemistry

i was reading an article on the steelers and it talked about how their offense built chemistry. chemistry is usually built in offseason in april or may. big ben invited his o-line to his house on lake for some fun on the water. they rode inner tubes and stuff like that. it was fun and helped them to bond. i don’t see or hear about this from our team. i only hear about two or three taking vacation together. we need something to get this team to see same goal.

by maxdout on Jan 19, 2009 11:14 PM CST reply actions  

Seems like Jerry has the right idea with Roy E.

In talking about Roy today Jerry said he wants him to put in alot of work this offseason so he can stay out on the field the entire year. Lets hope Roy is up to the task

http://www.freep.com/article/20090119/BLOG21/90119070/1049/rss14

by boysinyabelly on Jan 19, 2009 11:15 PM CST reply actions  

Plantar fascia

I’m not sure why this injury happened to Newman, but this injury should not happen to a well conditioned athelete. It can take months to go away. Let’s hope Roy puts in the effort this offseason. I know TO will.

by ym on Jan 19, 2009 11:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes TO will

but I hope he focuses his work on technique as well as his fitness

"Ask Philly was it hard tryin' a stop TO, he da main reason that the fans would come fo'."

by aussie_cowboy on Jan 20, 2009 12:38 AM CST up reply actions  

OK Raf, great article though a bit depressing

but I drink a lot of Kool Aid. To what do you attribute TOs ’07 stats? Anomaly? Or can it be duplicated?

by Benthere on Jan 19, 2009 11:19 PM CST reply actions  

I just added a piece to the story showing his five year trend

It’s down. When you have four years of decline and one that bucks the trend, in the player’s 31 through 35 years, I think ’07 is the anomaly.

I’m skeptical it can be duplicated. He’s turning 36 during the season. Nobody outside of Jerry Rice has produced big time at that age and T.O. doesn’t run routes like Rice. And he never had Rice’s hands, either.

by Rafael Vela on Jan 19, 2009 11:25 PM CST reply actions  

that is the fear..

Question is TO a cancer or do you ride out the contract you have already paid.

TO and Roy could do some damage, but at what expense?

"Protect the Romo, Save the Cowboys!!"

by Wmillion on Jan 20, 2009 12:10 AM CST up reply actions  

You know I was hoping for a different answer..

Guess maybe all the jettison talk is going to gain groundswell.

by Benthere on Jan 19, 2009 11:29 PM CST reply actions  

Roy E.'s foot

I was struck by his numbers after his foot injury, it really resulted in a dramatic downturn. How well do players usually return from this injury?

I am hoping his less than stellar play was due to his foot injury, because I am not willing to attribute it to not being able to pick up the system or needing reps or something like that. There are enough examples of WRs getting traded midseason and doing well to show me that a healthy Roy Williams should have contributed much more.

by DavidH22 on Jan 19, 2009 11:31 PM CST reply actions  

I'm amazed they kept playing him

I would have put Austin out there, whether Roy pouted or not. The guy could not run.

by Rafael Vela on Jan 19, 2009 11:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Our medical staff....

.. has made some questionable calls this past year. Roy W’s plantar fasciaitis<sp, Newman’s groin, Barber’s toe, Kosier’s injury….did we bring all these guys back too soon, and end up doing more harm than good?

"He has a peculiar felicity of expression." John Adams

by Jim Vance on Jan 19, 2009 11:43 PM CST up reply actions  

+1

"Ask Philly was it hard tryin' a stop TO, he da main reason that the fans would come fo'."

by aussie_cowboy on Jan 20, 2009 12:39 AM CST up reply actions  

+1000!

Yes! Why was he even out there?

Just like the screwup bringing Glenn back last year.
I don’t get it.

by Realist Larry on Jan 20, 2009 12:23 AM CST up reply actions  

Newman missed several games in '07 with this injury

and his sounded worse than Roy’s.

He didn’t have any trouble running this year.

by Rafael Vela on Jan 19, 2009 11:33 PM CST reply actions  

I like both receivers

But it’s obvious why Roy would want T around, he’s still going to get doubled. I would love to have a guy like TO around if I could be the number two, one on one all day. If Roy can’t beat that then he is a bust.

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 12:33 AM CST up reply actions  

I think it's obvious TO will get cut next year atleast

If you look at this in strictly age versus salary, he will definitely get cut unless he takes a pay cut…….. which means he will get cut. The problem is will less passes his way, and the knowledge he will be let go at the end of the year cause him to blow up. So do you keep him and dump the offensive coordinator when you know he will be here only one more year? I think not.

by just4fun on Jan 20, 2009 12:38 AM CST up reply actions  

I dont think thats obvious

It all depends on how he performs next year.

"Ask Philly was it hard tryin' a stop TO, he da main reason that the fans would come fo'."

by aussie_cowboy on Jan 20, 2009 12:40 AM CST up reply actions  

Wide Recievers his age never get better

It would be almost unprecedented. He relies on athleticism for his game and not precise route running/good hands. As he ages, his game will continue to slip. Good teams know when to move on from older players past there prime.
Again if he were willing to take a reduced role like Greg Ellis for instance, he would definitely be worth keeping around. I just don’t think he will ever let himself believe he is not the best WR in the NFL.

by just4fun on Jan 20, 2009 12:44 AM CST up reply actions  

If we win

It won’t be a problem, I would use him as a decoy more then anything. Just try something different with him. Run a slant or drag, something to mix it up, instead of him trying to beat double and press coverage running deep.

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 12:46 AM CST up reply actions  

If we had a coach that would instill discipline

I would agree with you. But we don’t. Nothing is changing. Same HC, same Coordinators (Wade was the real DC). Does anyone believe Wade will finally instill discipline after six seasons as a head coach?

by just4fun on Jan 20, 2009 12:51 AM CST up reply actions  

But Wade's D

Got better, the offense didn’t show any signs of that, injured line or not, as a coach your suppose to put your team in a position to win, and if that means adapting to what you have then so be it. On offense we rarely did that, while on defense we did show signs of improvement with Wade making as many changes as he could.

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 12:53 AM CST up reply actions  

Wade is not an awful coach

I don’t mean to imply that he can’t coach, and has no skills. Wade is a brilliant strategist, and if Jerry wants to take over the discipline and making the players accountable, it would probably work. But remember, this defense is very good at playing two or three quarters, too many times, even at the end of the season, players are looking at each other saying “I thought that was your man?” Guess it pays to show up and pay attention to meetings. All it takes is one man on the field not knowing where he was supposed to be, to kill any strategy.

by just4fun on Jan 20, 2009 12:59 AM CST up reply actions  

TO doesn't seem to do well with the discipline coach approach

In fact, I think he would end up in his driveway doing crunches and talking to the media (except for Easy Ed).

T-New, shutting down WR's for Dallas since 2003

by APerfectStar on Jan 20, 2009 1:13 AM CST up reply actions  

I agree

Which is why he has to go. If he were able to accept a reduced role, he would be an asset. But he’s going to make 9 mil this year, and still thinks he is the best wr in the league. He blames his lack of production on the offensive coordinator and fewer balls thrown his way. The offense is the same as last year, and the coordinator is too. Fact is he is getting old, that’s what happens to old players.

by just4fun on Jan 20, 2009 1:30 AM CST up reply actions  

You make a good point

Someone needs to hold all the players accountable, whether it’s teammates, coaches, or the GM.

My gut feeling that TO will be back next season is slowly decreasing day by day. I’m about to hit the 50% mark. (or else I ate some bad Mexican food)

T-New, shutting down WR's for Dallas since 2003

by APerfectStar on Jan 20, 2009 3:04 AM CST up reply actions  

and is it Jerry's fault to begin with?

this lack of discipline. Maybe Jerry could stand to have a more antagonistic relationship with his players.

by AustonianAggie on Jan 20, 2009 11:40 AM CST up reply actions  

That isn't my concern

My concern is everyone’s hope that Roy Williams can become the WR he was suppose to be. The WR he’s been for one year, when he rarely got doubled. He isn’t going to run past guys, that isn’t his game. He’s struggled with double teaming in the past, and I don’t wanna watch him struggle again this year. I have faith in Crayton and Austin but not as much as I would have if it was Roy Williams one on one. Look at the teams who fell short of the Super Bowl. They lacked playmakers. I don’t wanna just toss one, if not our best one on the street, when we could keep him, and hope Roy, at the same time, becomes the playmaker he was suppose to be.

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 12:42 AM CST up reply actions  

Late players

If you saw the DMN article today, it would seem to confirm many of our fears about Wade this year. http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/football/cowboys/stories/012009dnspocowlede.3f77524.html
It won’t matter what WR’s we have. If they play like this next year, TO, Wade and all the coaches will probably be gone. I can’t see Jerry “continuing” for four years.

by just4fun on Jan 20, 2009 12:48 AM CST up reply actions  

I just read the headline

Didn’t need to read anything more, that is inexcusable and the fact that the coach does nothing about it, is outrageous

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 12:49 AM CST up reply actions  

Hopefully

The “changes in the way we do things” means a dramatic increase in discipline, increase in fines and cutting of cheap players that fall asleep in meetings once in a while. I mean how is this team going to win when they can’t even show up for the bus on time. Just a side note…….. Brad Johnson is STILL on this team.

by just4fun on Jan 20, 2009 12:54 AM CST up reply actions  

Agree with the points

If you want change, it’s gotta happen now.

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 12:55 AM CST up reply actions  

I can't understand why he didn't

I can only guess that with building the new stadium he is stuck due to the coaches salaries. I’ve heard a few reports (albeit from “unnamed sources”) of Jerry and others being some what cash strapped due to the economy and in Jerry’s case the money he put into the new stadium. But if Wade doesn’t change dramatically (and he’s already said he’s not getting tougher in a radio interview) the team will continue to show up late and lose games. Meaning a new coach next year.
But there are a lot of great coaches available next year.

by just4fun on Jan 20, 2009 1:06 AM CST up reply actions  

Two Particularly Bothersome snippers from the article
Phillips may not be completely to blame for the smaller fines. A source said Phillips asked Jones to raise the fine total but was rebuffed by the owner.

This says that the corrupt DNA goes all the way to the top. A coach can’t discipline his players if the owner won’t back him. and:

Romo, according to a source, was also personally offended when Garrett was critical of his play late in the season.

If a player gets personally offended by coaching – especially a wet-behind-the-ears QB, with some bad tendencies….. I won’t go there… let’s just say this worries me more than any of the other rumors.

by JimmyJohnson on Jan 20, 2009 6:18 AM CST up reply actions  

Which would explain Romo's "they exposed us" quote after the PHilly game

Its very easy to deflect blame by throwing your coaches under the bus. Too bad so many on this board fall for it.

by NCCowboy on Jan 20, 2009 7:57 AM CST up reply actions  

Oh no!

Do NOT let Terry see this!

by Joey2zs on Jan 20, 2009 9:32 AM CST up reply actions  

Romo

Has to grow up.

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 11:48 AM CST up reply actions  

this reflects poorly on Jerry Jones

enabling this lack of discipline and hamstringing Wade

by AustonianAggie on Jan 20, 2009 11:31 AM CST up reply actions  

Great write up Raf....

As an old member of the T.B.B I’ve come to expect nothing less. I don’t disagree with your assessment everything that you pointed to could be spot on. I’m just not in favor of cutting off your nose to spite your face. If we’ve already got T.O under contract and if his numbers are on the decline then why not take advantage of the fact we know he will be doubled teamed. If I’m a DC regardless of what the numbers say I’m going to roll coverage to T.O’s side until a corner on my team can prove he doesn’t need help. so then a healthy Roy E. should have the room to make the plays that everyone who feels that he’s the answer should make.

I still believe that crappy pass protection and over the top help aided his poor performance.. but I’m not going to sell my home on that. I’m more willing to see what happens in a season where our blocking is at least avg and our players are healthy. If after this next season his numbers is still 3rd string-ish then cut him it will be an uncapped season and Jerry can use his oil money to pay off his contract. But cutting him now while we still have so many questions as to what went wrong with our offense (on the field) is a bit hasty.

I will admit I tend to be an optimist when it comes to people changing for the good I think with the right motivation anyone can change who they are. I sincerely hope that just like how we saw that T.O. made changes from who he was in S.F. to who he is today (all though some might argue there is no difference) I still think being another year older will help his personality and demeanor.

If I’m wrong with the exception of drafting some unproven phenom or some team being so strapped that they let a prized WR go. I just don’t see his replacement on our roster or potentially in F/A. His ability to draw a double team does not come along every day. Just ask philly

Semper Fi.

by UnNecessary Roughness on Jan 20, 2009 6:21 AM CST reply actions  

+1

0 = The number of Super Bowls the Eagles have won.

by gee-roj on Jan 20, 2009 8:14 AM CST up reply actions  

Hilarious

where can i get those rose colored specs? eBay? The store at DallasCowboys.com? HeadInTheOstrichHole.com?

I suppose that batting average and ERA are just objective stats that bear no true reflection of performance.

It could be that elimating TO from the mix improves team chemistry and does not hurt the passing game because of Roy E on the roster. The numbers are just FACTS that go to further the discussion. They are not conclusions.

by Joey2zs on Jan 20, 2009 9:40 AM CST up reply actions  

TO I beleive

"Ask Philly was it hard tryin' a stop TO, he da main reason that the fans would come fo'."

by aussie_cowboy on Jan 21, 2009 1:24 AM CST up reply actions  

+1

"Ask Philly was it hard tryin' a stop TO, he da main reason that the fans would come fo'."

by aussie_cowboy on Jan 20, 2009 5:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Enough cannot be said about coaching in all of this…

I’ll say it again; the Cowboys had the most predictable offense in the NFL, (save maybe the Raiders) last year. I don’t care who you are, if you’re team is playing with insipidly designed plays and terrible play calling you’re not going to produce.

I’d like to see another stat that shows me how many times Garrett lined Owens up in the same exact spot, vs. how many times he sent him in motion. I’d like to see how many times he lined any of these guys up in some type of bunch formation. I’d like to see a stat on how many times he did anything different from one game to the next let alone in any sort of in game adjustment to create any sort of miss-matches.

These guys in the NFL are professionals, which means they all have some level of talent. You may have what is perceived to be the most talented team in the NFL but it still comes down to the chess match between coaches on game day. This is where the games are won and lost. The games are won and lost in film room watching film. They are won and lost by the game plan and how well the team is prepared heading in.

Sitting on my couch at home I could almost always tell when Dallas was running vs. when they were passing. One of the most predictable teams I’ve ever seen in 30 plus years of watching football.

0 = The number of Super Bowls the Eagles have won.

by gee-roj on Jan 20, 2009 8:01 AM CST reply actions  

you know,

i think you should sign up to be the new writer for the blog. Clearly, being a former high school football coach, you have better bona fides than Jason Garrett, let alone Rafael Vela. Your intensely complex high school offense would’ve dropped more than the 34 points a game Garrett’s painful-to-watch offense averaged. They’re all so stupid. You’re so smart. Please, give us more of your knowledge.
By the by… how “complex” was Norv Turner’s dynastic offense?

by Joey2zs on Jan 20, 2009 11:58 AM CST up reply actions  

Norv at the time...

…was the best player caller in the business. He was a master of keeping defenses guessing and did the best job of any OC (at the time) of mixing up the pass and run. Garrett, not so much. But hey, you go right on believing that Garrett is the best play caller in the game and that the offensive struggles were because Garrett’s genius was too much for the players to handle.

Oh wait I get it… Maybe Garrett was so predictable this year so that he could fool everyone next year…. Yeah that’s it.

0 = The number of Super Bowls the Eagles have won.

by gee-roj on Jan 20, 2009 1:16 PM CST up reply actions  

well

you’re wrong.
the 92-95 team ran the same plays over and over. “they knew what was coming and couldn’t stop it” Every player on the offense said that. Emmitt says it all the time, same with Troy, and Irvin and I remember a lineman saying it too.
They executed better. They were better. Period. The team ran simple plays and just demolished the guy across from him.
“mixing up pass and run”? what does that mean? Why is Norv not as successful today with his fancy pants mixed up run and pass plays? I thought he is the “master of keeping defenses guessing.”

Explain Garrett’s 13-3 record and franchise-best offensive numbers last year and through the first 4 games of this year? I know, beginner’s luck. If only they had Cowboys R Numba 1 drawing up crazy ass high school plays in the dirt, THEN things would be on the right track.

by Joey2zs on Jan 20, 2009 1:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Garrett's offense, with Romo under center, statistically performed almost as well as in 2007

With Romo playing, Dallas’ offense averaged 25 points and 370 yards per game. I know facts like these won’t persuade the flat earthers on this blog, but I’ll keep trying.

by NCCowboy on Jan 20, 2009 1:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Okay…

Jimmy Johnson once said that Norv Turner was the best coach at in game adjustments he had ever worked with. Not sure he’d be able to say the same thing about Garrett at this stage of his career.

Mixing up the pass and the run, just so you know, is when you call a series of plays that mixes the two. Meaning you sometimes throw the ball and sometimes pass it. If you’re good at it the opposing defense will have a hard time getting a read on what you’re about to do. Once Emit got going, it became near impossible for defenders to get a read on whether it was an actual running play or a play action pass.

Yes that team did line up and blow people off the ball but when they faced an opponent that stacked the line, Turner was smart enough to pass them out of it. He had the best sense of when to call a running play and when to call a pass. And brace yourself; he did a better job of preparing that team, (especially for big games). You certainly never saw him call a grand total of 8 running plays when facing the Redskins.

13-3 means nothing to me. Seattle went 13-3 just 3 seasons ago and on either side of that was a 9-7 finish (sound familiar?). Now Seattle is a total mess. 2007 is just an anomaly as far as I’m concerned.

BTW, Norv’s offense in San Diego did quite well this year and at least his teams have actually won some playoff games over the past couple of seasons. Can’t say the same about this staff. Just take a look at Norv’s 12-2 record in the months of December and January over the past two seasons and compare that to Jason Garrett’s record of 3-6 over the same period of time as OC.

FYI, it was Ernie Zampese who called the offense for the Cowboys in 94 & 95…

0 = The number of Super Bowls the Eagles have won.

by gee-roj on Jan 20, 2009 2:14 PM CST up reply actions  

you are correct sir...

But Joey chose to describe the 13-3 season as "Garrett’s success" so I answered by illustrating the late season failings as Garrett’s as well.

0 = The number of Super Bowls the Eagles have won.

by gee-roj on Jan 20, 2009 3:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Norn Turner is not as successful today ??? wow..That's based on what ?

He has nurtured Phillip Rivers into the highest rated passer in the game today, at 105.5, ummm..14.1 points ahead of our shing star Romo.

He put an offense on the field that gained an average of 349 yards per game,while throwing the ball less than 30 times a game, and his team ranked 2nd in the NFL in scoring at 27.4 points per game.

If Norv Turner was here now, this team would be far superior than the offenses of the 90’s. IMO

by CowboysRnumba1 on Jan 20, 2009 3:23 PM CST up reply actions  

In the 13 games that Romo played this year . . .

the Cowboys averaged 25 points and 370 yards per game—not far off from Norv’s numbers in San Diego— yet in your opinion Norv Turner is successful and Jason Garrett is incompetent. You might find that when stating facts, it is helpful to consider whether there are any other facts that might either support or undermine your argument. If you did, your expressed opinions would be stronger and may persuade others. Unfortunately, I have found your postings to be marked by a fixed opinion, Owens good/ Garrett bad, and the espousal of only facts that help your opinion. Which means you are not interested in an exchange of ideas here, but only to beat your chest as loudly as you can (electronically) for everyone to hear. Very tiresome and deserving of inattention from those seeking an honest, yet energetic, debate on this blog.

by NCCowboy on Jan 20, 2009 3:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Yet this team has averaged only 15.5 points a game…

… in the months of December and January over the past two seasons. This indicates to me that for two seasons now, the opposing coordinators have picked up on what Dallas is doing, devised a game plan to shut it down, and then Garrett never seems to readjust for the remainder of the season.

Yards and points are nice stats for the overall season but it didn’t translate into wins this year, and that last time I saw the Cowboy offense peaking at season’s end was when the won Super Bowl XXX. Perhaps Garrett will get better at adjusting given a little more time but I just don’t agree that getting rid of Owens is the best way to find out.

0 = The number of Super Bowls the Eagles have won.

by gee-roj on Jan 20, 2009 3:55 PM CST up reply actions  

+1

If this season turns out like the last three on Offense then Garrett seriously has to be reconsidered.

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 4:01 PM CST up reply actions  

By turns out

I meant the month of December.

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 4:01 PM CST up reply actions  

+1 gee.

That’s all i’m trying to say. Getting rid of TO will not make things better here.

by CowboysRnumba1 on Jan 20, 2009 4:15 PM CST up reply actions  

btw, the offense averaged 24 points per game with Romo under center. not to nit pick :-)~

so no, I don’t utilize stats to sway others opinions on matters. I just post stats for all to see, and they can form their own opinions, even if they discredit their own stance on such matters.

by CowboysRnumba1 on Jan 20, 2009 4:13 PM CST up reply actions  

to answer your snide comment, yes, I could call better plays than Jason Garrett

I think half the people on this blog site can call better plays than Jason Garrett.

by CowboysRnumba1 on Jan 20, 2009 3:27 PM CST up reply actions  

LOL

That’s all true from what I remember. There wasn’t any surprise with that Cowboys offense. You knew they were going to try get the lead with Aikman’s arm and then try to beat you down with Emmitt’s running. You knew that when it was 1st and goal it was going to Emmitt. No one could stop it. Offense’s don’t have to be complex to be effective. They have to be executed right to be effective.

by kameleon_o on Jan 21, 2009 1:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Um

Sarcasm?

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 11:49 AM CST up reply actions  

Yes

I am willing to accept that TO is declining in physical ability and is thus not playing as well as before, but I cannot accept that he is a distraction or a cancer and that is causing our losses. The argugment is just VAGUE. We are dealing with professionals, not children. If most NFL players have ADD, I am willing to accept that TO’s a cancer, is uncoachable, and is a distraction. But that would make TO one of the few players who don’t have ADD.

by ym on Jan 20, 2009 1:54 PM CST up reply actions  

+1

Ok i thought it but wanted to be sure lol

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 2:09 PM CST up reply actions  

+1

"Ask Philly was it hard tryin' a stop TO, he da main reason that the fans would come fo'."

by aussie_cowboy on Jan 20, 2009 5:43 PM CST up reply actions  

I love this quote from Roy E.

“I understand what the fuss was all about with him,” Williams said of Owens. "Everyone knows the perceptions with him. But . . . I wouldn’t get rid of him. Let’s be honest, that’s the real question you want to know. I wouldn’t get rid of him . . . no way.

“The guy is a great player – one of the best in the game. You know what you’re going to get from the guy. They can talk about distractions all they want to, or anonymous sources saying this and that. But to me, they can take that somewhere else. It’s really not like that. I think T.O. is a scapegoat. He’s the guy that people point the fingers at.”

0 = The number of Super Bowls the Eagles have won.

by gee-roj on Jan 20, 2009 8:35 AM CST reply actions  

"Let’s be honest, that’s the real question you want to know. I wouldn’t get rid of him "

Someone has a high opinion of themselves. As a matter of fact he isnt even on my top 5 list of Cowboys whose opinions of TO are of the greatest interest to me.

"Ask Philly was it hard tryin' a stop TO, he da main reason that the fans would come fo'."

by aussie_cowboy on Jan 20, 2009 5:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Hmmm....

Named players, on the record, say there is no problem with the team… Yeah. That’s believable.

C’mon. All season long, we had assurances from players that everything was fine – while the team was falling apart. All along, we heard anonymous rumblings that there was discord and poor discipline in the locker room. You know what? The anonymous sources were 100% right. I don’t know why that would change in the offseason.

by JimmyJohnson on Jan 20, 2009 8:50 AM CST up reply actions  

Here's what we know..

We fell far short of our goal…

We had injuries that caused us some problems..

Some brilliant O coordinators and D coordinators on opposing teams exposed some of our weaknesses (in schemes as well as players)

When you fail and fail publicly, it hurts and it’s hard to blame yourself and easy to blame others.

This is not all bad. In medicine, if you have a disease (weakness) you can’t begin to fix it until it’s diagnosed. To get a diagnosis, you have to be examined, have tests, and then you get prescribed some combination of cure.

We’re still being tested, and under evaluation. Some of our health problems were obvious and required surgery (Read and Stewart) and we may have more. Some of our problems may require some therapy (retooling, reworking schemes, changing procedures) and we may also have to ingest some medicine (new players, new coaches). Nobody likes going to the doctor, getting poked and prodded, exposed, hearing bad news…but it’s the only way to get better.

So, we’re in that phase where we’re bent over with cheeks spread. It’s unpleasant, but necessary. We’ll get better.

"He has a peculiar felicity of expression." John Adams

by Jim Vance on Jan 20, 2009 9:59 AM CST reply actions  

nice Jim..

Unfortunately most fans are already screaming/crying before the doctor even puts on his gloves and lubes for insertion.

by CowboysRnumba1 on Jan 20, 2009 11:54 AM CST up reply actions  

nice post

"Ask Philly was it hard tryin' a stop TO, he da main reason that the fans would come fo'."

by aussie_cowboy on Jan 20, 2009 5:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Raf, great writeup

I say keep both receivers and lets see what happens next season.

by Burt88 on Jan 20, 2009 10:57 AM CST reply actions  

I'm in a surgical mood and the tests say this team has cancer

Cowboys should cut Owens. I’m a fan of his but this year, his talk with Deion, constant stunts, I started blocking him out of my attention and ignoring his news, but his news was real and a real pain.

Don’t let Tank Johnson reach free agency… cut him too. Publicly. Do not resign Pacman. Renounce him publicly. Public humiliation and the threat there-of is also a powerful motivation.

I’d start coming down on people pretty hard. Fine Spencer.

Here’s how I see the roster: Cowboys have as many as 11 rookies coming in to take your jobs.

Re-up the fines. If Jerry’s insistence is what keeps underperforming players on the field, I’d like to know. I’d like some reporter to show it so I can blame him

Lets face it, at every moment in the NFL-verse, a football team should be going young. Miles Austin, Felix Jones.

Greg Ellis, Flozel and TO are on their last legs. I’d keep the 1st two. We were all in support of “this is the most stable roster I’ve ever seen” the last two years. That has to end, I get the impression these players treat their roster spot like Goverment jobs.

by AustonianAggie on Jan 20, 2009 11:55 AM CST reply actions  

Let me ask you, Why would you want to keep Ellis or Flo ??

Did either of them have a good season last year ? I think they both failed and underperformed miserably, more so than mostly everyone else on the roster.

Are you just basing that opinion to keep them because they weren’t in the news, and didn’t spur contraversy ?

by CowboysRnumba1 on Jan 20, 2009 12:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Ellis

Talked more then Owens did last year.

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 12:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Ellis had 8 sacks

Spencer, his replacement had 1.5

Flozel plays LT and we don’t have another one of those either

by AustonianAggie on Jan 20, 2009 12:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Spencer played most of the year hurt

And proved more effective in the run.

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 12:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Spencer's also out getting arrested

and he has black clouds surrounding his attitude too

by AustonianAggie on Jan 20, 2009 12:13 PM CST up reply actions  

True

His attitude isn’t a problem, it hasn’t been until he got arrested at Purdue he was fine, and rarely got in trouble.

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 12:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Spencer did well and we need them both. Ellis cant play every play

and he is more productive with less snaps. He is an able back-up and situatioonal pass rusher. Spencer is gonna be very good. He is 22 and comes from a good back ground. He made a mistake and isnt a locker room cancer. We can easily keep both.

by squidlo97 on Jan 20, 2009 3:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Money

Isn’t going to allow that. If you want Spencer to progress you have to play him, a guy like Ellis is only holding him back.

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 3:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Spencer started and got 60% of the snaps. With this combo the spot had 10 sacks.

As Spencers pass rushing improves his 3rd down snaps increase. You have to rotate Dlineman. No need to cut Ellis, he has bitched in the press but he has mentered Spencer on the field.

by squidlo97 on Jan 20, 2009 3:43 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree

But if that is the case then you should keep TO for reasons to help with the WRs.

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 4:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Well said

Especially “I get the impression these players treat their roster spot like Goverment jobs.”

I also believe that it may be time for Ellis and Flozell to go. They are still productive enough, but the team might want to start anew. Replace Ellis with Spencer, and Flozell with a young tackle, albeit one who is not apparently on the roster as of today.

Ellis and Flozell are the only constants on this Cowboy team of mediocrity – aside from Jerry. Let them go and start fresh.

by DavidH22 on Jan 20, 2009 12:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Ellis?

He became a probowl OLB after 10 years as a Defensive End. Regardless of his whining, that is precisely the kind of coachability I wish many of our other players had. He also put up 8 sacks despite the fact that Stewie had him in coverage for half the year.

Who can we replace him with? Spencer? He was our pass-rush specialist and only got 1.5 sacks. To look at him, he is obviously overweight and slow compared to last year. I say we keep Ellis and hope his work ethic rubs off on some of these other guys (like Spencer).

by JimmyJohnson on Jan 20, 2009 1:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Give me Spencer who will keep his mouth shut

Over Ellis who complained about almost everything this year.

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 1:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Get rid of Flo?

Not likely. As disappointing a year as he had, he was just re-signed, and we have no one to replace him with (as you noted).

I’m not against it, but I think he’s here another 2 seasons unless the Cowboys find a gem in the draft this year.

Ellis is still producing and his contract is very reasonable. I don’t see a need to drop him either. He’s good for another season at least. Spencer needs to step it up and start making some plays before Ellis leaves, or again, we better hope for a gem in the draft at OLB.

T-New, shutting down WR's for Dallas since 2003

by APerfectStar on Jan 21, 2009 4:43 AM CST up reply actions  

Raf, you said...

“The truly amazing stat comes against red level competition. A 2.0 average is horrifying. A team simply cannot earmark 140-150 passes a season for a receiver (Owens) who can’t evade top-level coverage.” Didnt’ Romo and Brad miss him entirely on some of those?

Family, Friends, Cowboys, Beer & BBQ. Life is good!

by CowboyMan on Jan 20, 2009 11:58 AM CST reply actions  

What is your point?

Is that a rhetorical question? Of course no QB isn’t perfect. That’s why any stat like “thrown to” is relative. All receivers had passes thrown to them that probably either weren’t catchable or would require a circus catch. Since it happens to all receivers, from all QB’s, it probably evens out. Then you can compare reciever A to reciever B. Got it? Does this really have to be explained?

by StillHateTheGiants on Jan 20, 2009 12:07 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree Romo made bad decisions

To the people who just want to keep TO no matter what, that is exactly the point. Plays are called and passes attempted that should not be made, probably because he is such a pain in the a$$

by StillHateTheGiants on Jan 20, 2009 12:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Romo can throw to whoever he likes

Unless he’s scared big bad TO is going to say something to him, and if that’s the point grow up and do what parents tell you to do, give the cold shoulder.

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 12:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe Romo

should throw at his head. There’s a target that is hard to miss.

When did I become a Cowboy fan? When my mom told me I was.

by GunsUp on Jan 20, 2009 12:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Ha

Clever.

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 12:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Which play are you talking about

The Steeler game because I’ve watched that game three times and each time it was Romo trying to force a ball. First one was horribly under thrown and the second ball was just a force.

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 4:04 PM CST up reply actions  

agreed

"Ask Philly was it hard tryin' a stop TO, he da main reason that the fans would come fo'."

by aussie_cowboy on Jan 20, 2009 5:49 PM CST up reply actions  

I think you meant "seen"

OK, let me understand this. Tony Romo, who has a higher passer rating and completes a higher percentage of his passes than most QB’s throws 1 out of 3 passes to TO that aren’t catchable. What would cause that? Are passes being forced to TO to keep him happy and/or shut him up?

by StillHateTheGiants on Jan 20, 2009 12:10 PM CST up reply actions  

OK..15 QB's in this league had a higher completion percentage than Tony Romo this past season.

So to think Romo completes a higher percentage than most is off base. And IF have to go back and watch every ball throw to TO this season I will. I know what I see, and I see at least 3 balls every single game that were thrown to TO with absolutely no chance at all of being completed. Granted TO also had some drops, and I never claimed that he had good hands. But he had, from my recallection about a dozen or so drops this season. So you account for his 69 receptions, his 12-15 drops, that still leaves about 60 balls that were thrown in TO’s direction, according to numbers I’ve seen posted here of 140 targets. OK….so using a 65% completion rating as a guideline, TO should have caught on average about 65% of 140 thrown AND catchable balls. OK, well we can confirm he caught and/or dropped about 75 balls this year, That leaves about 65 passes unaccounted for, and those go directly to Romo’s inability to show poise, his penchant to throw a uncatchable ball, or into completely covered double teamed receivers, or throwing it away, or simply being way off his target, or being intercepted. Right ? Time to put the blame where it’s due people…please.

BTW- If you watch BSPN today you’ll hear reports all day that the team is fed up with Romo’s very poor practice habits, his blaza blah attitude, and his inability to progress and work on his game.

by CowboysRnumba1 on Jan 20, 2009 12:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Don't misinterpret my comments, I'm not defending Romo

Tony Romo frustrates me as much as TO. I think they both hurt the team a lot. Most of my frustration is because I think they could both stop most of the BS and help the team but have chosen not to.

I don’t buy your premise that there were 65 balls thrown to TO that were uncatchable. I don’t have the means or time to go back and review every throw from a Dallas QB to TO. I do remember scratching my head most games thinking they were forcing things to TO when the ball should have gone somewhere else. Whether that happened because he is such a pain in the a$$ or just bad play calling or QB judgement, I don’t know.

by StillHateTheGiants on Jan 20, 2009 1:09 PM CST up reply actions  

It's not my numbers that I'm commenting on.

According to some unofficial stat man, TO was targeted 140 times this past season. Meaning Romo threw in the direction of TO 140 times. We all know he caught 69 of those targeted balls. And if we are to include yet another unofficial stat of “passes dropped”, I don’t have this years totals, nor do I know where to find such unofficial stats, so I will go on the high end of assumed drops and give him 16 drops. I can only assume when a WR is given credit for a drop, that must be under the assumption that the WR should have caught the ball, rendering such thrown ball catchable. Following me ? So, If TO caught 69, dropped 16, that leaves us with 65 balls thrown in TO’s direction that were deemed uncatchable. TO’s catches and drops account for aprox. 65% of the balls throw to him. Which is fairly good if we consider a QB’s completion rate of 65. So why all the fuss ?? Romo threw to TO at a 65 clip. 65 of those balls being thrown away, intercepted, or off target. Am I wrong to assume that ? Do I think Romo deliberately threw to TO to keep him happy, and to shut him up ? Not at all. Do I think that Romo forced balls to a completely covered, and unopen TO, Sure do. That’s his blame, nobody elses. Not even Garretts fault.

Whether that happened because he is such a pain in the a$$ or just bad play calling or QB judgement, I don’t know

I don’t know either, that’s my point, NOBODY knows for sure. But there are constant comments on here saying Romo was forcing throws to TO, to keep him happy, or to shut him up, and that point is baseless, without fact.

by CowboysRnumba1 on Jan 20, 2009 5:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Enough of this "coddling theory", That is by far the most BS argument of them all.

It is not Romo, Garretts duty to make TO happy.

Romo never threw to TO thinking that he better throw to him, or he’s going to be upset….give me a friggin break with that so lame comment.

by CowboysRnumba1 on Jan 20, 2009 12:13 PM CST reply actions  

If he

is doing that, then he needs to stop. I have no problem with T.O. until he drops passes that hit him in the hands.

When did I become a Cowboy fan? When my mom told me I was.

by GunsUp on Jan 20, 2009 12:16 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree

TO needs to shut up and stop dropping passes (he drops more than an average receiver) and Romo needs to grow up in many facets of his game.

by StillHateTheGiants on Jan 20, 2009 12:20 PM CST up reply actions  

I'll agree with the drops.

But usually when he has a game with more then his usually drops you don’t hear him running his mouth.

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 12:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Regardless

He still catches for 1000 yards…another thing you have to agree with.

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 12:38 PM CST up reply actions  

then your previous post makes no sense

explain how a QB who is more accurate than most throws so many that are uncatchable to TO? I’ll stop the sarcasm and be very clear. TO lovers want it both ways. If you show stats that show he is thrown to a lot, they focus on the fact that some throws were uncatchable. This happens to every receiver in the NFL!!!! There’s no reason to believe it happens with greater frequency with TO UNLESS you believe his behavior is causing throws that should not be made.

by StillHateTheGiants on Jan 20, 2009 12:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Watch the game

When a majority of your completions are to Witten and dump offs to Choice your % is higher. Watch McNabb. He is so accurate until you watch him throw 10 yards short on a 15 yard out. The Westbrook screens skew the numbers.

""I really dig Hannibal. Hannibal had real guts. He rode elephants into Cartilage." -Tyson

by cmr3 on Jan 20, 2009 4:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Here's what I'd like to see...

but probably won’t.

Remember Romo, TO and Witten chumming it up and joking about the ‘alleged’ controversey? I’d like to read that those three got together this month, invited the rest of the offense over for poker and porno’s, and had a Super Bowl party watchiing two other teams playing together…AND…vowing to do better, as a team.

Remember that guy who became famous when he posted himself on the internet, defending Brittney Spears? I’d like to see Terry (from BTB) do that same thing in defense of Romo! “Leave Tony alone!! puh-leeese”

(JK Terry, no offense intended.)

"He has a peculiar felicity of expression." John Adams

by Jim Vance on Jan 20, 2009 2:03 PM CST reply actions  

How many years equals a decline?

Is every player’s decline the same? Is a 36 year-old TO better than Miles Austin?
 I would say at least 3 years equals a decline, not 1. A player that takes care of his body like an arrogant, self-absorbed, freak like TO does, will deteriate slower than maybe Plaxico.
I really do appreciate the research and time this article takes, but could we not do this with hundreds of players across the league to prove almost any point? Is Romo not trending downward? Romo’s comp % is down every year! How is a WR a bigger problem than a QB that fumbles the ball almost every game(13, 7 lost) and has 14 INT’s? If Romo and Garrett spent 1/3 of the time game planning as we spend debating TO’s every move, then the Cowboys would score 50 a game.

""I really dig Hannibal. Hannibal had real guts. He rode elephants into Cartilage." -Tyson

by cmr3 on Jan 20, 2009 4:25 PM CST reply actions  

+1

0 = The number of Super Bowls the Eagles have won.

by gee-roj on Jan 20, 2009 4:31 PM CST up reply actions  

It doesnt take a brain surgeon to figure out that some serious dysfunctional things happening.

Based on the way they played I have a hard time believing this is a media conspiracy to bring down an average team. Things are coming out by players showing there is some fire to go with all the smoke.

by squidlo97 on Jan 20, 2009 5:39 PM CST up reply actions  

We're not average to them

We’re the Dallas freaking Cowboys, largest fan base of any team next to probably the Yankees, plus people love to see us fall, it’s such an easy story.

by joey7289 on Jan 20, 2009 6:49 PM CST up reply actions  

that I agree with..

Easy pickings, ask a guy on a team who missed expectations what the problem is and you will find some juice..

You ask 20 guys, 5 will give you the answer you need to have a juicy story on America’s team. If this story was about Aaron Rodgers or David Garrard it is a back page story.

You ask Crayton, a couple of back -up linemen, and a couple practice squad players you will get 5 sources who think Tony looked lazy at practice. To a guy fighting for a spot or playing time Tony R. probably looked lazy.

I think there is some merit to story, but not to the degree it sounds.

"Protect the Romo, Save the Cowboys!!"

by Wmillion on Jan 20, 2009 7:38 PM CST up reply actions  

+1

""I really dig Hannibal. Hannibal had real guts. He rode elephants into Cartilage." -Tyson

by cmr3 on Jan 20, 2009 8:46 PM CST up reply actions  

We are always calling out certain guys ,or coaches, or owners. We blamed the media for

much of the reporting coming out. We saw injuries, meltdowns, questionable decisions by many postions. If I were trying to fix this team then the first thing we have to do to get back on track is fix the chemistry. Then the disipline, then talent.

From of all we learning from whats coming out now that the season is over this was a completely disfunctional team. I think with the exceptions of a few guys, alot of blame could be spread amoung the whole team equally. With the exception of Ware and Brady and Choice, the whole team regressed and I mean everybody, TO, FLO,Hamlin, Biggie, Canty, MBIII, Wade, Garrett, Stewart, and ROMO.(our fearless leaders) Finger pointing that anyone does better start with the individual. Nobody but nobody needs to call out others without pointing out their own failings

It just doesnt matter about any thing else if these players dont come together as a team. Malcontents, locker room polarizing personalities, poorly disiplined people that think they are above the rules have to go. Its ok to bitch until the team starts taking sides. then you got to go. Players need to shut up about coaches. Inmates cant run the assylum.If they have a problem with the coaches they need to see Wade. Coaches can call out players in the press. Its one of the few motivating tactics they have. If you cant take it, your mentally weak and you need to toughen up or go home.

Im just not ready to completely blow up this team and start over but we have some heavy trimming.

by squidlo97 on Jan 20, 2009 4:48 PM CST reply actions  

If inmates started running the assylum, would you blame the inmates?

a lot of the blame needs to be pointed at Wade.

""I really dig Hannibal. Hannibal had real guts. He rode elephants into Cartilage." -Tyson

by cmr3 on Jan 20, 2009 4:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes and Jerry as well. I have said many times Jerry needs to step out of the locker room and back his coach.

If its true that Wade asked for bigger fines and was ignored the request then thats on Jerry. A parent has no power if the other parent undermines or doesnt back him.

by squidlo97 on Jan 20, 2009 4:59 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree with you there

""I really dig Hannibal. Hannibal had real guts. He rode elephants into Cartilage." -Tyson

by cmr3 on Jan 20, 2009 5:02 PM CST up reply actions  

One thing I must question is if a bad season really means he is declining in skill

I mean look at Randy Moss he had the best season of all time a year after a horrible season, and then look at Braylon Edwards this year he was terrible this year, but the year before he was a monster. Sometimes whether it is the qb or the system wrs just do not have good years. From everything I have seen TO can still play and play at a better level than Roy Williams so I am all for keeping him.

Another point is he really did not have that bad of a year. He still topped 1,000 yards

by rioplayer7 on Jan 20, 2009 8:16 PM CST reply actions  

The thing is his age which was not an issue for Moss or Edwards.

If TO was 25, were not having this discussion. But hes 35 and coming close to his decline

"Ask Philly was it hard tryin' a stop TO, he da main reason that the fans would come fo'."

by aussie_cowboy on Jan 20, 2009 9:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Moss is no spring chicken either...

0 = The number of Super Bowls the Eagles have won.

by gee-roj on Jan 21, 2009 7:22 AM CST up reply actions  

My comment was about when Moss was in Oakland

And I might be wrong but I thought he ws only 30 there.

"Ask Philly was it hard tryin' a stop TO, he da main reason that the fans would come fo'."

by aussie_cowboy on Jan 21, 2009 7:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Dallas Cowboys blog for the SB Nation network. We talk Cowboys 24/7/365. Join the discussion but follow the community guidelines.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Largestssescape_color_small_small
Myth Busters: Dallas' Sad Pass Rush
Small
Is Mario Williams on the Cowboys' radar?
Fountain_small
The Stanford Routt Situation
Zombie_cap3_small
Two Options for how to fill the Cowboys roster holes
Small
Garrett the next Jimmy Johnson...child please!

Recent FanPosts

Jason_garrett_head_coach_small
Rohpuri's Spin on MTD's Latest Mock Draft: Cowboys Edition
97946_giants_cowboys__football_large_small
The Anthony Spencer Scenario
Small
2012 FA and 1st Round Projection
Cb1_small
Is the long term answer to the Cowboys NT already on the team?
Small
The Cowboys should sign Routt and franchise Spencer
Small
Hail Mary or a 5 Year Plan?
Massage_home_small
Forward Thinking Vol IV - The Offseason
Small
If the glorious leader were a visionary instead of a consensus taker

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Editor

Head_shot1_small Dave Halprin

Lead Writer

Captain_small One.Cool.Customer

Profile_small Brandon Worley

Ollogo3_copy_small KD Drummond

Contributing Writers

Hotdoglu_small Aaron Novinger

Emmittintro_small rabblerousr

Dr_fate_small Tom Ryle

Moderators

Ns_08bstockb-thumb-200x185_small scottmaui