NFL Power Rankings - Week 13 - Final Edition
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 1, 2009 2:10 PM CST
42 comments
Here's the early edition of our weekly power ranking roundup heading into week 13, including some blurbs on the Giants.
Final update should be ready by Wednesday night.
1. Major Media Networks & Affiliates
- Cowboys: 4th (+1)."The offense woke up against the Raiders, which is a good sign moving forward. But it will be December the next time they play and we know how they fade in that month."
- Giants: 13th (-2). "This is a team in big trouble. If Eli Manning can't play at close to 100 percent the rest of the way, they can forget the playoffs. Even with [him], they could miss out."
- Cowboys: 6th (+1). "QB Tony Romo and wide receiver Miles Austin have built a chemistry that produces positive results."
- Giants: 14th (-3). "QB Eli Manning's foot problems are the latest concern for an entire team that is limping"
- Cowboys: 7th (+1). "Another Thanksgiving win for a Cowboys team that can end the Giants playoff hopes this Sunday."
- Giants: 16th (-4). "The Giants look like a team that is going nowhere fast, and a loss to Dallas will put them in the ground for good."
ESPN:
- Cowboys: 7th (+1). "The Cowboys' schedule gets tough with games against the Giants, Chargers and Saints coming up. (Clayton)"
- Giants: 15th (-4). "The season comes down to their next two home games: Dallas and Philadelphia. (Clayton)"
NFL.com's Brain Trust of Experts: 7th (+3). NFL Stupidologist Jason La Canfora does not see the Cowboys in the playoff picture: "NFC Pretenders: Dallas (8-3). We all know what this team does in December. Historically, Tony Romo has been awful in the season's final month, and the schedule down the stretch is brutal. Teams are taking away Jason Witten, now beat up, and no one else is stepping up on a consistent basis. Even though he's coming off a seven-catch, 145-yard Thanksgiving performance, Miles Austin isn't going to bring it every week. The defense has been better, but the history of late-season collapse is very real and hard to shake. With two other very capable teams in the division right on their heels, and a loss to Green Bay a potential wild-card killer, I don't like their chances. Even in two of their wins, over Washington and Kansas City, the Cowboys were awful and should have lost. I see it all catching up with them in the end. Prediction: By the end of this upcoming three-game stretch, they'll be chasing the pack and beating the Redskins on the road won't be easy. They might not win another division game. If it goes down like I think it will, look for heads to roll in Big D this offseason." Scientists, linguists and statisticians have analyzed this drivel and can not make any sense of it.
Michael Silver at Yahoo Sports:
- Cowboys: 8th (nc). "Do the Cowboys think Adam Duritz wrote “A Long December” for them?"
- Giants: 16th (-2). "Can they survive Antonio Pierce’s season-ending injury – and if so, who will step up and lead the defense?"
[update] Don Banks' Power Rankings
Cowboys 8th (+1). "For a team that has won six out of seven games, losing only to Green Bay at Lambeau in the past two months, there sure seems to be a lot of doubters when it comes to Dallas. But with December having finally dawned, the Cowboys get another chance to exorcise the ghosts of what has been their cruelest month in recent years. But it won't be easy. At the Giants, home against San Diego, and at New Orleans is a brutal three-game stretch to start things out. All that hangs in the balance is the outcome in the NFC East, the only division race that has much suspense."
Giants: 16th (-5). "If the Giants are going to make any noise these next two months, they have to rediscover their offensive identity, starting this week at home against Dallas. New York's power running game has to establish the tone on offense with a downhill, straight-ahead style of attack, and that sets up the opportunities in the passing game for Eli Manning. The Giants coaching staff needs to show some faith in an offensive line that has led the way to success in the past. This should be the time of the year when New York pounds away in the running game."
Peter King in MMQB: 9th (+1). "Moments of truth coming for the 'Boys in a 14-day span, beginning Sunday at the Meadowlands: at Giants, vs. Chargers, at Saints."
- Cowboys: 10th (nc). "I don't want to hear how the 8-3 Cowboys are back, or how they should be higher on this list. Have they dramatically improved since the egg they laid against Green Bay? Should I rocket them up the list for beating the Redskins 7-6 (a game they deserved to lose) and the mighty Raiders at home on Turkey Day? Their defense is strong, but the offense still hasn't truly clicked and still can't touch some of the tougher defenses in the NFL."
- Giants: 14th (+1). "Especially coming off a horrendous holiday showing in Denver, the panic button is being hit in New York with the report that Eli Manning's lingering foot issue could be a major catastrophe ... added to news that LB Antonio Pierce is done for the season. You think this is panic? Yo, see what happens if the Giants lose to the Cowboys at home to fall to 6-6." Foxsports, home to the King of Wishful Thinking.
2. Blogs & Other Media
Zac Wassink is back from his honeymoon and publishing again at Associated Content:
- Cowboys: 5th (+2). "Can Tony Romo actually perform in December? We'll see."
- Giants: 16th (-5). "Eli Manning is hurt. Antonio Pierce is out for the year. Things aren't looking good for Big Blue."
- Cowboys: 6th (nc). "Still leaving points out on the field."
- Giants: 14th (-3). "That offensive line just isn't the same group we have known."
[new] TSN.ca:
- Cowboys: 6th (nc). "Ran the ball effectively against the Raiders -- no great feat -- and it led to another 300-yard passing game for Tony Romo. With the Giants, Chargers and Saints up the next three weeks, though, there is no time to sit back and enjoy the individual numbers."
- Giants: 12th (-3). "A pair of must-win home games, against divisional rivals Dallas and Philadelphia, are up next and the G-Men can't afford to settle for the split if they are going to get back in the playoff picture."
- Cowboys: 6th (+2). "Fattening up during October and November (especially with a Turkey Day game against the Raiders), Tony Romo and the 'Boys now have to prove their mettle in December and January, something that has been a problem for quite a while. If they can get through the beastly schedule with a playoff spot, they'll have earned it."
- Giants 16th (-3). "Oh how the Giant have fallen. From 6-0 and hearing whispers of a Manning-Manning Super Bowl to being one more crippling loss from missing the playoffs, the G-Men have battled a rough string of injuries. However, there is no excuse for losing five of your last six games if you consider yourself championship contenders."
Mike Florio at ProFootballTalk.com:
- Cowboys: 7th (+2). "The Cowboys will get a strong dose of reality later this month, when they head to the Superdome"
- Giants: 15th (-4). "Is it too late for the Giants to not give Eli Manning that $100 million contract?"
- Cowboys: 8th (+-0). "Tony Romo is known for struggling in December, and the Cowboys’ schedule gets tougher going forward. The next three games (at Giants, vs. Chargers, at Saints) will show how good this Cowboys team really is."
- Giants: 17th (-4). "Eli Manning’s foot injury should be a major cause for concern among Giants fans. His foot has bothered him most of the season and it has showed."
[update] ColdHardFootballFacts.com
- Cowboys: 8th (-1). "The Cowboys quietly have the league's No. 2 scoring defense (16.5 PPG) despite allowing 5.2 yards per play (14th)."
- Giants: 18th (-5). "It may be worth noting that at this same point in the 2007 season, the Giants were 7-4, coming off a 41-17 loss to Minnesota, and firmly on the list of 'teams that have no shot.'"
3. Statictics & Computer based rankings.
Great Blue North Draft Report: 4th (+1). This site calculates rankings by first round draft selection order based on own and opponent W/L record if the season were to end today.
AdvancedNFLstats: 7th (+1). Offense ranked No. 2 (+1), Defense ranked No. 21 (nc). This ranking model includes offensive and defensive passing and running efficiency, offensive turnover rates, defensive interception rates, and team penalty rates.
- Cowboys: 7th (+1). "Dallas got the offense moving on Thanksgiving but it still was far from perfect. A big game at the Giants will help sort the playoff picture or jumble it even more."
- Giants: 14th (-5). "All is not well for the Giants as they have now dropped five of their last six games, have three straight division games up next and have to deal with all of the Eli rumors."
tom slick publishes his Rankings on SBNation's The Falcoholic: 7th (-1). He weighs offensive and defensive points scored/allowed relative to all other teams to determine his rankings.
WhatIfSports: Cowboys 8th (+3). These guys simulate every possible matchup in the NFL 100 times, and use the winning percentages from those nearly 50,000 games to evaluate every team, with updated rosters and depth charts.
Jeff Sagarin's NFL rankings: 9th (+1). These are rankings based on W/L record, points differential and schedule strength.
[update] FootballOutsiders: 8th (+1). Offense ranked No. 4 (+1), Defense No. 18 (nc), Special Teams No. 8 (nc). They also offer these two Quick Reads.
- Romo: "It's hard for a quarterback to put up big DYAR totals while converting on only one of the nine third downs he faced, but Romo was able to do so thanks to big plays on first and second down. It also wasn't exactly all Romo's fault; he was victimized by drops, and he faced third downs that required 11, 15, 17, 23, and 24 yards for conversion."
- Austin: "Even more impressive than Austin's numbers above is the fact that he spent a fair amount of his day against Nnamdi Asomugha, who normally erases wide receivers off the field. Outside of Vincent Jackson, who outplayd an injured Asomugha in Week 1, no one's done better work against the league's premiere cornerback this year than Austin. (In all fairness to Asomugha, he was not in coverage on Austin's touchdown, and was expecting a safety to be behind him in zone coverage on Austin's biggst play of the day, a 49-yard completion in the first quarter.)"
Here's how the NFC East fared:
| |
 |
 |
 |
 |
||||
| This Week |
Last Week | This Week | Last Week | This Week |
Last Week | This Week |
Last Week | |
| CBSsports |
4 |
5 |
8 |
9 |
13 |
11 |
27 |
27 |
| Great Blue North |
4 | 5 |
9 |
11 |
12 | 9 |
28 | 27 |
| Assoc. Content |
5 | 10 |
9 | 14 | 16 | 15 |
26 | 25 |
| ProFootballWeekly |
6 |
6 |
8 | 10 |
14 | 11 |
26 | 24 |
| TSN |
6 |
6 |
9 | 7 |
12 | 9 | 25 | 25 |
| SportingNews | 6 | 7 |
8 |
9 |
14 | 11 |
26 | 25 |
| Fanhouse.com |
6 | 8 |
10 |
12 |
16 | 13 |
29 | 29 |
| tom slick |
7 |
6 |
10 |
8 |
18 |
15 |
19 |
19 |
| Advancednflstats |
7 | 8 |
5 |
6 |
10 | 7 |
17 | 17 |
| NFP |
7 | 8 |
9 |
9 |
16 | 12 |
23 | 24 |
| ESPN | 7 | 8 |
9 | 10 |
15 | 11 |
26 | 24 |
| Covers.com | 7 |
8 |
11 |
12 |
14 |
9 |
26 |
25 |
| ProFootballTalk |
7 | 9 |
10 | 12 |
15 | 11 |
27 | 26 |
| CHFF | 8 |
7 |
11 |
12 |
18 |
13 |
25 |
25 |
| NFL.com |
7 | 10 |
9 |
9 |
15 | 12 |
26 | 24 |
| Yahoosports | 8 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 16 | 14 |
25 | 24 |
| Weii.com |
8 |
8 |
9 | 9 |
17 | 13 |
24 | 24 |
| FootballOutsiders |
8 |
9 |
4 |
4 |
14 |
11 |
21 |
22 |
| SI.com | 8 |
9 |
9 |
10 |
16 |
11 |
24 |
26 |
| Whatifsports |
8 | 11 |
20 |
10 |
14 | 17 |
26 | 27 |
| Sagarin Ratings |
9 | 10 | 13 | 11 | 16 | 9 |
28 | 28 |
| Foxsports | 10 | 10 |
13 | 13 |
14 | 15 |
26 | 26 |
| Average | 7.0 | 8.0 | 9.6 |
9.8 | 14.8 | 11.7 | 25.0 |
24.7 |
For a summary of all NFL teams using some of the same rankings, go to NFLpowerranks.com
Another user-created commentary provided by a BTB reader.
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42 comments
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Awesome, as it always is...
I love these posts OCC… They should really move these things to the front page.
You save me so much time bouncing around to see what everyone is saying, so thanks for that.
I really felt
That La Canfora sounded like a 3 year old throwing a temper tantrum when something didn’t go his way. He really sounds extremely biased. I mean come on, is there anyone out there that really thinks the Giants are better than the Cowboys right now? He’s the only analyst on NFL.com that I know of that has the Giants in the Playoffs. I think he’s just harboring some hate because he refuses to accept that Dallas may indeed have turned the corner. I’m not saying we’re the best team out there, because I think we’re probably 4th or 5th in the conference. But come on, “Miles Austin was awesome, but he doesn’t post 145 yards every game” Ok, thanks for that great analysis. I guess Randy Moss and Andre Johnson just suck too.
This year, more than ever, I just hope and pray that the Cowboys FINALLY stuff this b/s down these “analysts” throats. So tired of all these illogical arguments being the headline at the end of every year.
I seriously LOL'd @...
But come on, "Miles Austin was awesome, but he doesn’t post 145 yards every game" Ok, thanks for that great analysis. I guess Randy Moss and Andre Johnson just suck too.
Truly the work of a serious analyst.
No kidding
Just say, “I hate Dallas!”, next time LaCanfora. You wouldn’t look like such a moron.
You can't stop Patrick Crayton, you can only hope to contain him.
He's just mad cuz somebody beat him to Austin in his fantasy league.
I saw a dog today. Have you seen a dog? You probably have. How was school? Was it fun? Did you get a lot of homework? Huh? Do you have any friends? Do you have a best friend? Does he have a big coat, too?
by Aaron Novinger on Dec 2, 2009 7:27 AM CST up reply actions
Overall..
Not too bad.. I think Pete Prisco probably has them at bit high at +4.
I think..
1. NO (wow..they are looking lights out)
2. Indy (How can you rank any lower without losing a game)
3. Minn (still playing really really well – but they haven’t played a lot of tough games..probably over rated but at 10-1 it’s hard to argue)
4. Chargers (I’m a hater..but they are on a roll and have player really well against some very talented teams..Phillip Rivers is currently the most under-appreciated player in the league..he makes that team run)
5. Dallas – 5 seems about right.. I’d even accept 6th or 7th.. they look very good..but not elite just yet.
@ La Canfora – are you getting paid for this dribble? An analysts looks at current trends and past performances and makes an educated guess about the future.
In his little rant he completely negates the differences in this years team and simply relies on the December cliche as the fuel for his “analysis”.
The boys have a lot to prove this month and there is no doubt about that…but writing them off this year because of their performance in the last few years is not only short sighted..it’s just plain lazy.
Two teams that I think are just as good as us or better
Are the Eagles and the Packers. Probably won’t make too many people here happy, but that’s just how I feel.
However, I think we are probably better than the Chargers. I guess we’ll find out in a little over a week, eh?
I also think that we will give the Saints a run. Literally. The Saints struggle against great running teams. Their close games came against:
Miami
Carolina
Atlanta
St. Louis
Those are all very, very good running teams in my opinion, with Miami probably being the best running team in the league (at the time). That said, our passing game is better than in the cases of those four teams, and our defense is also better than those four teams’. Hence, I think we have a VERY good chance of upsetting the Saints and spoiling 16-0. If we beat the Saints and they go 15-1, December will take on a whole new meaning for the Dallas Cowboys.
Great observation..
I haven’t really heard that much in the post MNF Glory for the Saints. But, it’s definitely true.
Packers
I agree that the Packers are certainly capable of playing with the Cowboys although I don’t think they are better. They are still prone to poor offensive line play and suspect special teams.
Eagles
The Eagles are so up and down that I don’t quite know what to make of them. It does appear that teams that can run the ball give them trouble and they are beat up in the secondary. Also their offense is still having problems on short yardage situations and consistently moving the ball. But, they did seem to improve against a good Washington defense. They can really look scary and then other times they are putrid.
Awesome, thanks OCC
No more Walter’s makes this a better round-up.
You can't stop Patrick Crayton, you can only hope to contain him.
I want these guys to continue to find the Cowboys suspect. I want the Cowboys
to have chips on their shoulders because the pundits still don’t believe. Thanks, OCC. Great work, as always.
Great write-up, keep it coming O.Cool :)
How great would it be to repeat our offensive performance of earlier this year against a weaker Giants defense … while SHUTTING DOWN eli, bj and the rest of the Gints O.
Cowboys 31 – Giants 6
Doomsday returns... Wade Phillips style.
I'm all for the Cowboys thrashing the giants
but your prediction is a bit over the top. We are playing AT the giants you know.
"What the hell is going on out there?" - Vince Lombardi.
Oh, I know ... I've been at Giants Stadium to watch the Cowboys games for 30+ years :)
Doomsday returns... Wade Phillips style.
Pretty obvious the Boys will not move up or down too much.
All these analysts have probably looked stupid at one time or another the past few years ranking the Cowboys high only to have that taste in their mouths when December rolls. I understand it. What they don’t see is the change in this years’ team from the last few years. I hope we “deserve to lose” the rest of our games and come out with a win so they can all marvel at the fact that we flew under their radar all the way in to the playoffs.
lol @ Fox sports...
Not only do they have the Giants going up one spot after a loss but the guy throws a hissy fit about the “false” success of the Dallas Cowboys.
How is it that every rational individual realizes that each season is different with its performances, injuries, circumstances and overall results except for the so-called “experts”!!!!
"What the hell is going on out there?" - Vince Lombardi.
They only watch highlights and look at the standings, it seems.
I saw a dog today. Have you seen a dog? You probably have. How was school? Was it fun? Did you get a lot of homework? Huh? Do you have any friends? Do you have a best friend? Does he have a big coat, too?
by Aaron Novinger on Dec 2, 2009 7:28 AM CST up reply actions
I'm starting to believe
they listen to hearsay more so than doing the bare minimum of watching highlights and looking at the standings. I just laugh sometimes…
"What the hell is going on out there?" - Vince Lombardi.
Nice write up OCC
Hope we can silence the hate in December.
Drinking the Blue Kool-Aid since 1980. "Ohhhhhh yeeeaaaaahhhh!"
It's weird how much disrespect we are getting for beating the Redskins.
This is the same team that beat the Broncos, and had a 4th quarter lead on the Eagles in the past 3 weeks, and is our biggest rival. But for some reason, us winning against them is counted as a negative. Meanwhile, in the past 2 weeks, Oakland beat the Bengals and we whipped Oakland, but Fox has them moving up and in 4th. Pittsburgh has lost 3 straight, including to the Chiefs, and they are ahead of us. The Broncos have lost 4 of 5, including to the Redskins, and they are ahead of us. I try to not be that guy who screams anti-Cowboys bias, but it’s hard not to when you look at some of these.
I guess the Cowboys will have the chance to settle this on their own in the next 5 games. It’s kind of crazy that we could win out, beat the undefeated Saints, go 13-3, and still not get a bye.
by Baked Potato Soup on Dec 2, 2009 9:00 AM CST reply actions
I agree
It seems like our losses send us plummeting..our “bad wins” are extremely glaring..and our wins are ALWAYS in games that aren’t big.
Other teams can have real bad stretches or worse losses than the boys have had.. Steelers, bengals, eagles etc…and because people expect these teams to be there at the end of the year they are constantly defended…
Dallas is currently being judged based on what is expected of them in december. Most of the analysts are trying to get in front of the December Collapse so they can say " I told you so" if it happens..
Here’s to showing the world how little attention these guys actually pay to the Dallas Cowboys
by SDTrueblue on Dec 2, 2009 12:25 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Jason La Conforna is a douche
2009 Dallas Cowboys: 10-6
2009 New York Jets: not 11-5 :(
2009-2010 Dallas Mavericks: 57-25
what a major drop off after Adam Schefter.
"No matter where you go, you are what you are playa"-Jay Z
Twitter Account
I wish he could see my responses to him:
1) Teams are taking away Jason Witten: um…no? The Cowboys are just using him differently, making Witten run curl routes that lessen his YPC.
2) Even though he’s coming off a seven-catch, 145-yard Thanksgiving performance, Miles Austin isn’t going to bring it every week: He has trouble getting separation, but I think he’s very capable of doing so, especially if JG runs the offense through him.
3)The defense has been better, but the history of late-season collapse is very real and hard to shake: Keith Brooking wasn’t on previous defenses.
4) With two other very capable teams in the division right on their heels: The Giants are a “very capable team?”
5) a loss to Green Bay a potential wild-card killer: Green Bay is a wildly inconsistent team that met Dallas on a good day.
6) Even in two of their wins, over Washington and Kansas City, the Cowboys were awful and should have lost. I see it all catching up with them in the end: Explain to me how a win can catch up with us? Plus, the win over Kansas City began a four game winning streak.
2009 Dallas Cowboys: 10-6
2009 New York Jets: not 11-5 :(
2009-2010 Dallas Mavericks: 57-25
And Washington, Kansas City, and Oakland have recent wins over teams he has higher.
Somehow us winning against those teams is worse than other teams losing to them.
by Baked Potato Soup on Dec 3, 2009 12:07 PM CST up reply actions
I alway thought Jason was Danny Snyders long lost twin.
This kinda confirms it.
Intelligence seems comparable. Definitely same barber.
KICK ASS every day!!!
by squidlo97 on Dec 3, 2009 10:43 AM CST via mobile reply actions
I actually had a similar thought when I first saw him hahaha
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
I actually agree with all the criticisms raised by the guy
I still think they’ll squeeze out a couple of wins and sneak into the playoffs, but I can’t really argue w/his points about the offense.
I mean, beating the Raiders doesn’t exactly make up for the poor Philly/Washington/Green Bay games……The Raiders are a joke.
We’ll check back in a few weeks and we’ll know-is this a “good” team that can beat most of the others but is not truly one of the best?
Or is it really on the same level w/ the Chargers/ Saints/Vikings etc.?
What a surprise that it’s the D carrying them and the O has stunk it up for 1/2 the year.
At this point I just hope they look respectable and make the playoffs, and don’t embarrass like last year.
"O has stuck it up for 1/2 the year"
Really? Being ranked 4th in total offense really stinks You should change your name because that comment certainly isn’t reality.
In Romo we Trust
Did you watch the KC/GB/Philly/Wash games?
I don’t care about stats-they need to do it against teams with good D’s, not just the Oaklands/ TB’s of the world.
I hope I’m wrong and they put up points the rest of the year, and I’ll be happy to say so. Right now it’s wait and see.
If they keep putting up 7 points a game (or some low number), it won’t be pretty and I’ll accept your apology.
by Realist Larry on Dec 4, 2009 5:39 PM CST up reply actions
I thought that we decided points were more important than yardage.
Isn’t that the new thing now, since Dallas’ D is good at stopping teams from scoring, but let’s them drive up and down the field? Well, by that measure, the offense doesn’t score nearly as well as they drive, as they are middle of the pack in scoring, despite being 4th in yardage. Out of the top 11 offenses in terms of yardage, only the Steelers score less than us. (9th yardage, 15th scoring).
I don’t think that the offense is stinking it up, but I think they have left a LOT of points on the board. “They” have helped the defense out quite a bit by not turning the ball over as much, but the D has not returned the favor by getting turnovers and putting them in the short field.
To me, these are the 3 areas that most need improvement on this team: finishing drives on offense, creating turnovers on defense, and penalties on both sides of the ball. If they improve in those 3 areas in the last quarter of the season, I think they are looking at a deep playoff run.
by Baked Potato Soup on Dec 4, 2009 7:59 PM CST up reply actions
If only it weere easy to improve all of those!
well-said, though.
by Realist Larry on Dec 5, 2009 12:19 AM CST up reply actions
The Raiders beat a good Cincy team the week previous,
and can you explain how the Philly game was “poor”? Also the O has hardly stunk it up half the year, there have been two bad performances and thats it.
The Knights season may have just ended, but the Cowboys year is just begining!
Meant to be in response to Larry
The Knights season may have just ended, but the Cowboys year is just begining!
by aussie_cowboy on Dec 3, 2009 11:10 PM CST up reply actions
In Philly, one TD was on a short 37-yard field, one was a miracle bomb to Austin. Those won’t happen every week. between that they did nothing.
Against a lousy KC team they needed Austin’s miraculous plays to save them.
GB, Wash speak for themselves.
by Realist Larry on Dec 4, 2009 5:41 PM CST up reply actions
So Long TDs dont count for offense then?
The Knights season may have just ended, but the Cowboys year is just begining!
by aussie_cowboy on Dec 4, 2009 7:33 PM CST up reply actions
They can't be relied on week-to-week
And especially against good teams.
And especially as the weather changes and the pressure mounts.
It’s one thing to be clicking like we were in 2007, or NO is this year. Romo and company are not making big plays consistently though.
7 points against Wash. and GB, that’s scary, no matter how good their D’s are. Since Seattle/Atlanta I just don’t think the offense has shown any consistency.
Doesn’t mean they can’t improve! I’ll wait and see before I count on it though.
by Realist Larry on Dec 5, 2009 12:25 AM CST up reply actions
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