Should the Cowboys Look Back in the Draft?
by Jim Vance on Mar 18, 2009 11:00 AM CDT
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PrintI am going to provide you a list of thirty seven former and current NFL players. Some you might recognize as pretty good players, most you probably won't recognize at all. The oldest player on this list is Lester Sims and he came into the NFL in 1972. Malcolm Kelly is the youngest player entering the league in 2008.
Besides playing in the NFL what other significant event do all thirty seven of these players have in common?
Lester Sims, Steve Baumgartner, Matt Blair, Bob Barber, Chris Bahr, Pete Cronin, Guy Benjamin, Jim Haslett, Tim Foley, Ricky Jackson, Reggie McElroy, Johnny Hector, Sean Jones, Scott Bergold, Pepper Johnson, Don Smith, Dante Jones, Billy Joe Tolliver, Mike Fox, Doug Thomas, Chuck Smith, Todd Rucci, Allen Aldridge, Terrell Fletcher, Dedric Mathis, Greg Jones, Kailee Wong, Johnny Rutledge, Cosey Coleman, Paul Toviessi, Clinton Portis, Terry Pierce, Dwan Edwards, Nick Collins, Ryan Cook, Steve Smith, Malcolm Kelly
The one thing these players all share is that they were selected as the 51st overall pick of the draft. This list includes every 51st choice in order from 1972 until last year's draft. As you know, the Cowboy's first selection in this draft is at 51 and I was curious to see what that selection yielded in past years. I have talked to some who feel this is a pretty good crop of players for the middle of the second round. There are some standouts and some with serviceable careers but overall I am not encouraged by what I see. If I were assured of getting a Clinton Portis or Pepper Johnson or Steve Smith or Guy Benjamin I would go for it. However, if this group as a whole is representative of what you can get at 51 - I would like to try to trade up.
I understand that the Cowboys might trade up or down. I understand that the Cowboys scouts might be better or worse than other team's talent evaluators and I accept that this list is but one snapshot of a process that has a thousand variables. What about you? Would you stand pat?
At the very least, when you watch the draft with your friends, you will seem brilliant when you explain what Cosey Coleman has in common with Jim Haslett.
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Lists like this could be made for any pick in the first two rounds. The draft is a total crapshoot because even the most promising players sometimes never amount to anything. I personally think that we will move up in this draft because we have few major needs and many picks to up.
agreed
you can’t base one year’s draft based on previous years specially if you look at a specific pick. you can look at a range of picks and see what happens over a long period as a better indication of what you might have. for example top 10 in the 1st. second 10 and bottom 10. then first half of second round, vs. second half of 2nd round, etc.
with that said, I think we don’t have any glaring holes other than saftey and this year’s crop leaves a lot to be desired, so I doubt if we make a move up for a saftey. but we might make a move up to grab an ILB or NT of choice if we think they are worth it. we have enough ammo to move up in the 2nd and don’t need 11 picks for us to fullfill positions.
by CowboysFanatic on Mar 19, 2009 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions
hey if there are teams out there that like to trade, I am all for it, but
with the cut players bonuses escalating in this year’s cap why would anyone wants to stockpile on draft picks, and we’ll have 11! after giving up 3 for RW
Based on a very quick scan of that list
It looks like about 30% became at least serviceable players, decent starters. A couple much more than that. I tend to agree with Jack, you could probably do the same kind of analysis of rounds 2-5 and be in the same ballpark. If that’s true, I like the idea of hanging on to as many picks as possible. 30% of a bigger number is better than 30% of a smaller number.
Someone used the 51st pick on a coach (Jim Haslett)? :)
by StillHateTheGiants on Mar 18, 2009 11:47 AM CDT reply actions
LOL... You're getting warmer. Resemblance is frightening, no?
by Boundforbeach on Mar 18, 2009 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions
dude, one guys about to get tarred and feathered... lets not link him to Dallas' coach
by AustonianAggie on Mar 18, 2009 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
lol
alright that was good… one at least has September to prove his worth, and as a fan, I’ll never regret Wade turning our D into something I’m excited to see on the field
by AustonianAggie on Mar 18, 2009 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Besides, AIG sponsors the other type of football
They’re Man United’s shirt sponsor, at least until the end of this year.
Maybe not
but he is good at handing out bonuses to a bunch of jackasses that arent with the team anymore
but he doesn't look anything like Dan Snyder
ba-da-bing!
Be sure to try the veal parmesean. And don’t forget to tip your waitresses!
Sad but true...
Garrett needs to get a clue!
I notice Carolina is as interested in Sean Smith as we are
but they also lack a 1st round pick and are below us in the 2nd
by AustonianAggie on Mar 18, 2009 12:39 PM CDT reply actions
Julius Peppers is not worth a Sean Smith draft pick
by AustonianAggie on Mar 18, 2009 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Julius Peppers, I guess he's not what he used to be
but he is one of the better defenders in the NFL, usually considered. For Sean Smith?
by AustonianAggie on Mar 18, 2009 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe that's what the Peppers deal is all about?
I was wondering why they were so hot after Smith with no 1st rounder.
The Peppers to N.E. rumor involves the 34th pick the Pats got for Cassell.
That might get the Panthers high enough to snag him.
I would trade up in the 2nd for him
he is a combination S/CB, which allows him to cover WRs in the slot, but he has played saftey, and he has size to boot. other than him all the other safties are about the same and don’t ring my bell
by CowboysFanatic on Mar 19, 2009 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions
You also have to factor in...
the quality of coaching that these players experienced. Obviously, some of them were on very good teams. However, some if not most didn’t have that luxury. That list might be better if the former was true.
reading up on Louis Delmas - Dallas would be best served by getting a player like him
Every site loves his coverage, 4 year starter, productive all four years
he's the guy I want
He has the skill set to play either safety position and as Raf said, we’re in desperate need for talented, young safeties.
He can be had around pick #40 and it would only cost us our 2nd and 4th to get him.
In Romo we Trust
I like that he played S all through College
Sean Smith would be a converted CB it seems, I’d like to have a career safety – mostly because I want him to contribute immediately
by AustonianAggie on Mar 18, 2009 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, but Sean Smith is Woody sized
Woody was 6’1", 217
Smith is what, 6’3", 214? Give him a year with the strength coaches and they’ll add some weight to him and keep his speed.
I agree
Delmas didn’t play top-notch competition and that is tough for a safety to make that jump. Smith played big in big games (against bowl teams too) and if you want to know if he can contribute iummediately, go look at this INT. Ridiculous!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9M2w9m320k
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Jerry Rice, Walter Payton and Randy Moss
didn’t play against top competition either, and neither did Romo for that matter. I don’t buy the level of competition argument at all because so many NFL players throughout the years have proven it wrong regardless of position.
In Romo we Trust
Given Arizona's Dominique Rogers-Cromartie
Troy is looking like a little boutique factory of excellent NFL defensive talent
by AustonianAggie on Mar 18, 2009 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I thought he went to some other podunk school. Like Middle Tennesse St. or Tennessee St.?? Something like that
There is no theory of evolution. Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.
Kameleon....
he did go to Tennessee State. His cousin,Antonio Cromartie, the one on San Diego went to Florida State.
The point being that there is a case to be made for big time programs
…and how they produce players who are GENERALLY more ready to contribute as rooks.
That’s not a knock on small schools, just the reality of the fact that facing better college competition makes you better prepared for the next jump in opposition.
Said differently; all other things grading out equally, you would take a guy from USC over a guy from the University of Southern Chattanooga.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
I remember that Jerry used to emphasize big program players
he speculated that they were more reliably talented. I think Romo and Ware must of changed that stance – also drafting guys like Courtney Brown and Deion Anderson doesn’t really reflect big school emphasis
I remember Jerry going on like this in about 2002
by AustonianAggie on Mar 18, 2009 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Are you sure about that, AA?
Felix Jones Arkansas
Mike Jenkins South Florida
Martellus Bennett Texas A&M
Tashard Choice Georgia Tech
Orlando Scandrick Boise State
Erik Walden Middle Tenn. State
and remember, this was the first draft in a while without Tuna or Jeff Ireland looking over his shoulder…
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
re-read it...
I said all other things being equal.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Then...
how about if they are close?
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
I think...
That you have to look at the talent that someone is playing at.
But when you look at that talent, you see how much someone is dominating at a certain level.
The scouts, for the most part, know what they are doing.
You can look at being at a smaller school two different ways.
1. He was playing against lesser competition.
OR
2. The team he was playing with wasn’t all that great and so he was making plays despite the fact.
The coaches/scouts look at alot more then what we look at.
I’m sure they probably look at how they played against elite QB’s or WR’s in certain games as well.
Webster's definition of irony: Keyshawn Johnson calling another football player selfish.
You are right AFB.
As long as Jerry listens to his scouts, and doesn’t fall in love with the sparkle, he will do fine. I think he is getting better in that regard. And the fact that his hands aren’t tied from being in Cap Hell he doesn’t have to make a reach like he used to.
When did I become a Cowboy fan? When my mom told me I was.
thats why they have all star games
at the end of the season, like the senior bowl and east/west shrine game, the small college kids get a chance to go up against major college talent.
In Romo we Trust
Yeah, but it
kinda sucks that one game can make or break your future. You have at least 100 kids competing for playing time. How many different qb’s play? How the heck are you supposed to get in rythym with that style of football?
When did I become a Cowboy fan? When my mom told me I was.
because they practice all week
and actually the scouts take more from the practice sessions than they do from the actual games.
In Romo we Trust
here
Negatives: Lacks the bulk most teams prefer. … Likes to evade blockers, rather than taking them on and shedding blocks. … Resorts to low tackles and will, occasionally, duck his head and swipe. … Can be more pesky than forceful as a tackler and will get dragged, at times. … Aggressive defender; can be beaten with play-action. … Questionable level of competition.
NFLDraftScout.com
by CowboysRnumba1 on Mar 18, 2009 11:25 PM CDT up reply actions
somebody here wanted us to sign Chris Carr, he inked with
Baltimore, 2 years 5 mil to be a backup, I’d say for that much money they can have him
It's probably because of the Samari Rolle thing...
He’s young and has some skills. He’ll play a lot.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Well, they cut him...
So maybe it was a disease!
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
So...not a disease?
Dcfanz, icksnay on the epilepsy-ay.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
His agent said many teams were interested
but he didn’t say what that interest was about. Maybe they want to sign him to be their horsecollar coach, so the secondary guys understand the rule and don’t break it?
You heard that too?
“Horsecollar coach”??
I hope you were responding to a different post!
Good one Raf 8)
by Realist Larry on Mar 18, 2009 8:33 PM CDT up reply actions
I find it hysterical how agents
always say that there are so many teams interested in their recently cut clients, when in reality, thats simply not true.
You know the Bills were the only team interested in T.O. because no way he signs with them at that price if some other teams were interested.
In Romo we Trust
again it was a joke Terry
see the speculation above that Roy would go there because of the lack of media scrutiny…
hell nevermind. Its not funny now that I have to explain it to you
What players were prone to dumb mistakes last year?
I recall one by Burnett, and Pat Watkins, Tony Curtis, what else comes to mind?
Dallas doesn’t have any of those guys on the roster do they? I remember Raf saying Dallas should get rid of the dumbies, what other players fit this?
one thing that gets me is offsides, I'm not sure of the exact statistics, but
I bet the majority of offensive offsides are on Adams
they are but the other tackle had a lot too
they have this stat somewhere – but I can tolerate some of Flo being offsides
by AustonianAggie on Mar 18, 2009 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions
score TDs quicker!
supposedly Flozel is deaf in his right ear and this is the root cause of offsides – also Flo as big as he is absolutely wants the 1st step. I don’t know how to get rid of the offsides with out getting a new LT. Which is hard to get
by AustonianAggie on Mar 18, 2009 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Since Flo is partially deaf.......
I think it’s caused when Romo calls an audible and he can’t hear it. Just a theory.
some of those the refs are just blowing early
I hate those penalities I remember 2 in the giants play off game
by AustonianAggie on Mar 18, 2009 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions
most of the time he's not offsides though
line judge calls it because he thinks Ware is offsides as Ware is too quick for the human eye!
In Romo we Trust
it wasn't posted on my PC though when I wrote my post
of course I ended up BSing with someone before I finished writing it so that would explain the time difference.
In Romo we Trust
That was 2 years ago.
Last year he WAS offsides every time they called it-and always in an important siuation-usually on a 3rd down, of course, keeping a drive alive.
by Realist Larry on Mar 18, 2009 8:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't remember the dumb mistake by Burnett.....
what did he do? Unfortunately, I remember the others.
he was supposed to cover Brian Westbrook
when Westbrook motioned out of the backfield; instead he stayed in between the tackles, and Anthony Henry had to leave his spot to get to Westbrook – after trying to motion Burnett over – this ended in a TD to Westbrook. That was the announcers interpretation and I agreed with it’s appearance. I don’t know for sure that it was Burnett’s fault though
This was part of that snow ball in Philly
by AustonianAggie on Mar 18, 2009 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions
It was a bad defensive alignment
I think Burnett had to cover two players, and McNabb saw it. Best call in that situation would’ve been a timeout.
Everything's looking up, Milhouse!
by accidental innuendo on Mar 18, 2009 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions
I have blocked out that whole game in my mind-LOL
it’s too painful to remember.
We will not stay at #51, other teams permitting!!!
Dallas will put together a few picks/player to move up in the draft, mark my words!
Only way they stay put is if:
1. Players they covet are falling to them at #51
2. Other teams will not trade down
by torchindefenses on Mar 18, 2009 3:31 PM CDT reply actions
What sort of bonus and salary will Irvin's show winner get?
by AustonianAggie on Mar 18, 2009 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Irvin gives him a haircut...
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
haha....
I’d watch my neck if I was that dude.
Webster's definition of irony: Keyshawn Johnson calling another football player selfish.
yeah, it's what I reported last week
bonuses for rookies cut during the year can’t be pro-rated. they count as dead money this year.
Tells me the better teams will trade up, and try to dump late picks and other teams will stockpile.
texstar-
I understaind what you are saying BUT…
uncapped year or not the Cowboys will not have to pay that much more to the rook that they aquire if they move up to say, pick #40 to get their guy. They have way too many picks. They absolutely have to trade picks or they will be wasted IMO. Dallas has too much talent for numberous 6th and 7th round picks to break into the roster. Unless their guy(s) fall they will trade. They may even trade up just a few picks. It just makes sense to me.
by torchindefenses on Mar 18, 2009 3:57 PM CDT reply actions
all I am trying to say.....
is teams are going to have to be very sure of their picks this next year because of the salary cap. You’re correct they may bundle some of these to move up if they are really sure of their guy. I think I’m correct on this?
That way...
the Cowboys trade multiple picks for fewer, higher caliber players. Only 6-7 out of 11 players will most probably make the team. That’s 4-5 players/picks available to trade.
by torchindefenses on Mar 18, 2009 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Right?
If they keep their picks they will be paying out more than if they trade them for higher positioning.
Am I wrong?
by torchindefenses on Mar 18, 2009 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I dont know about that, if
you move up and give a player at #40 200k higher bonus than at #51 that equals of 10 seven rounder’s bonuses. If you cut them all than the whole thing is a wash.
correct?
what I'm trying to say......
for example, if you have a 6th rounder and cut him, then that signing bonus still goes against the cap. Odds are, say a 3rd rounder, is going to hopefully be a better player and he will make the team. From what I’m understanding is where it really hurts you is if the player get s cut because all the bonus money will go against the cap this year. Make sense?
Raf, if you're reading.......
please correct me if I’m wrong because I don’t like to spread distorted facts.
yeah you're right, thatswhy everybody thinks its better to bundle those late round picks and trade up, because
realisticly they wont make the team.
btw, can a team forgo draft picks, lets say just skip the 7th or 6th round
its not forfitted
and no you cant forgoe picks its against league rules…
remember when minny missed there 1st round pick and like 3 other teams picked before they got their pick in
What the French?! Toast!
That caused a big problem later on.
The player who Minny picked (Kevin Williams??) then thought he should have been picked several spots earlier and demanded the same amount of money that the player selected there got. A lot of people thought Minny did it just to save a few bucks.
There is no theory of evolution. Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.
Yeah I researched it
Byron Leftwich and Jordan Gross were selected ahead of him. I guess the only option is to draft a player you have no intention of signing although I am not sure how that works out for the player.
I think if they don't sign a contract then they re-enter the draft the next year. Not sure though.
There is no theory of evolution. Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.
I think that's what usually happens.
The team wants to get something for their pick and the player doesn’t want to wait a whole year to re-enter the draft.
There is no theory of evolution. Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.
which means no one will be able to do it...
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
that's what I've been told
now, bonuses on late round picks are small, but if you have a lot of them, it adds up.
Right...
If you think about it, how many $40K bonuses do you have to seriously worry about before it impacts a cap that exceeds $100 mill?
I think this a tempest in a teapot.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Blings what I was getting at......
is you better have a good feel for all your draft picks this year whether it’s in the 2,3,4 etc. rounds because if you cut them, that bonus money will go against your cap for this year. All I was trying to say is that it will make teams really think twice before they pick because they don’t want a lot of dead money.
The Roy Williams trade was a good thing
I personally think it was great, all around as long as Roy produces and is a team player. We didn’t lose anything. A 1st round pick would HAVE to start. Look at Booby Carpenter. Yikes! We would pay a bundle for that 1st rounder and they would have to start at WR. Hmm.. I like Roy better.
by torchindefenses on Mar 18, 2009 4:05 PM CDT reply actions
Speaking of Big Programs
It seems the NE has found the formula for picking great potential QB’s – Pick the best QB on the bench at a big-time program. Brady behind Henson at Michigan; Cassell behind the whatstheirnames at USC. Based on that, I would think scouts would be scouring the benches of top programs for late-round QB talent. It has to be better than the 5’9" guy who comes out every year with ridiculous numbers at Western Noname State University.
Haha...
Hey everyone knows here that I think the Patriots are the best ran program in sports, but I also think that when you pick someone in the later rounds like that…. there is ALOT of luck that comes that way.
Plus Brady wasn’t a backup all his career in college.
He started every game in 98 and 99, and won two bowl games.
Webster's definition of irony: Keyshawn Johnson calling another football player selfish.
Still, the point remains
The best big-program backup has a better chance of success than a the typical, undersized, small college QB with gaudy numbers.
by JimmyJohnson on Mar 18, 2009 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah....
I guess.
I mean how many college backup quarterbacks have had success in the NFL?
I think you look at more at the system they were playing in.
Most of the QB’s that are selected in the late rounds that played for super small schools were transfers from big schools. Like Flacco and guys like Rhett Bomar.
Either that or they are mega atheltic and the coach feels like they can be a project player or randel el type guy.
Webster's definition of irony: Keyshawn Johnson calling another football player selfish.
Okay, with that logic....
whose the backup to Tim Tebow, Colt McCoy,Sam Bradford…….
how about we trade Spears? yep he is a first round pick, but
nothing spectacular and the fact that he is not approached for resigning by the team, might mean that we’ll let him test the FA waters next spring. At least we can get something valuable for him now.
any thoughts?
If you trade him...
Then you go back to not having a starting quality DE.
You’re right, he’s not spectacular but he he actually had a pretty good second half of the year.
Unless you can trade him for good defensive end and a late draft pick.
Webster's definition of irony: Keyshawn Johnson calling another football player selfish.
Spears is beginning
to show up. He’s not there yet ,but I like his chances. As far as our draft picks go , I can see Jerry picking up the players that he wants by moving up as needed. 5 or 6 at most. Then trading for picks next year if he can.
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