Do we REALLY need a backup NT?
by Tim Wilson on May 19, 2009 4:44 PM CDT
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PrintMoved this over from one of the threads to discuss it as its own topic:
This offseason, a lot of us have cited the need for a backup NT to spell the undersized Jay Ratliff this year, so Rat doesn't get worn down over the course of a long season as the starting NT.
It sounds good and makes philosophical sense to say: "Jay Ratliff is a lighter NT, he needs to be spelled or he'll be tired out and beat up by the end of the season."
But is this really true? What evidence are we seeing that The Rat got worn down last year?
Here's Jay Ratliff's 2008 statistical breakdown:
Weeks 1-10 (includes bye): 4 sacks, 25 tackles
Weeks 11-16: 3.5 sacks, 26 tackles
Where's the drop off? I realize these are very crude statistical measures, but to my eyes, Rat held up very well over the course of a full season. I'd love a good backup NT to spell him, but how many teams have good backup NTs? Who is the NT behind Casey Hampton? Behind Jamal Williams? There is of course always the danger of injury, but that's the case at every position. I don't think there are many NFL teams that wouldn't be in trouble if one of their top defensive players went down.
Certainly Jay Ratliff needs a breather every once in a while. And if he comes off the field, then yes, our options in a base 3-4 defensive formation are limited (Remi Ayodele?).
However, I would argue that the way to spell Rat is not to sub him out in a base 3-4 set. Our formations are more flexible than we probably give them credit for much of the time on this board, and for all our talk of the 3-4 defense, we are often in effect playing a 4 man line (or even a 5 man line, in the case of the 46 defense that Raf has broken down many times).
Because of that, to me the best way to take Rat off the field for a few plays is going to a 4 man line on certain downs and moving Spears and Olshansky (or even Ellis or Spencer) to the DT spots.
My point is what I hope is a reassuring one: Despite his size, Jay Ratliff has not shown a tendency to wear down, and if he did, we do not necessarily need a solid backup NT in order to give him a rest.
Another user-created commentary provided by a BTB reader.
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Rat
Interesting stats, I agree most ppl dont have quality back-ups, hence why they are back-ups. Quality back-ups become starters, see matt cassel. However, with that said, I do feel it’s important to add debt. Especially for situational purposes, say we have 3rd and 1 we bring in some more meat like a 6’5’’ 335 lbs DT to help clog the hole.
Of course we’ll need SOMEONE there. Last year I guess you would have said it was Bowen. But I’ve heard a lot of comments on the board over the course of hte offseason asking for someone like Ron Brace, a space-eating NT who can spell Rat. And I don’t know that we need that type of a player as badly as we think.
Larry Allen benched 700 pounds. That is Leonard Davis times two.
Ratliff is unique, not a prototype.
They need a more traditional 3-4 NT, because trying to find other guys like Ratliff is not going to work. If it did, he wouldn’t be special. The guy is clearly unique among 3-4 NTs in the league. Tank Johnson was the backup NT, and as noted, couldn’t perform to the level that Ratliff did, because he was undersized also.
by Baked Potato Soup on May 20, 2009 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions
but I do know that
they don’t have players who haven’t played the game in two years backing them up. players who have not been good enough to stick to other teams or be picked up. that’s who we have as a back up. I don’t expect a probowler or starter in the waiting. but I expect somebody better than those who weren’t good enough to play football for two years.
by CowboysFanatic on May 20, 2009 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Who sucked
Tank, while having talent, was far too often caught free-lancing as a DT instead of playing the NT position. He was, in fact a liability.
Res firma mitescere nescit
+10
Tank didn’t fit the scheme, that why he didn’t work, but remember Rat is really a DE playing NT. Think about how cool it would be to have him lining up at DE with either DWare or Spencer at his side?
Deo Vindice Veritas,
by SmittyCityMo on May 20, 2009 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
Exactly.
Which is why we need a true NT, not just another DT.
by Baked Potato Soup on May 20, 2009 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions
They've been using this for the past few years
Because of that, to me the best way to take Rat off the field for a few plays is going to a 4 man line on certain downs and moving Spears and Olshansky (or even Ellis or Spencer) to the DT spots.
But the team rarely uses the starting 3-4 DEs as DTs in 4 man fronts, we’ve seen these guys at those positions: a lot of Bowen and Tank last season and a little of Hatcher and Ratliff.
We didn’t saw the Cowboys package last year, which is 3 DE/OLBs and a DT as the 4 man front, we will probably see the scheme again this year with the extra pass rushers acquired.
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
we absolutley do
for multiple reasons. One although the season statistics for Ratlieff didn’t drop off, you need to have a platoon of DL men to keep them fresh in the game specially for run defense late in the game and late in the season and playoffs. If you looked at the teams last year you noticed most of them were running teams, that continued to do the same in post season, except for AZ, but that’s the exception rather than the rule. even going against good passing teams you need a good pass rush and although in the 3-4 the DL doesn’t generate the pass rush they are critical to its success. All you have to do is see the multitude of long runs we gave up at the end of last season.
second, what happens if Ratlieff is injured. do we have another brad johnson situation on our hand? do we throw away the season because one player got injured and we didn’t have adequate depth? plus if you look around the league and successful 3-4 defenses, they usually have a big plugger in the middle. getting ratlieff to the DE spot also helps generate pass rush from a spot on the 3-4 that you don’t expect a pass rush, which makes the defense even more dangerous.
yes, we need a good back up NT, because on the DL, the NT is the key to the whole defense (wilfork, hampton, jamal williams)
Who backs them up?
Name the backup NTs on the Pats, Steelers, and Chargers, quick! Can’t do it. I do know one and he’s only adequate.
The 4-3 and “Cowboy” formations far and away give many opportunities to rest Rat, though they like to have Rat in those situations anyway.
An injury would require one of the DE’s to transition. Bet on Spears getting a lot of time in training camp.
Res firma mitescere nescit
but if you noticed
they don’t have players who haven’t played the game in two years backing them up. players who have not been good enough to stick to other teams or be picked up. that’s who we have as a back up. I don’t expect a probowler or starter in the waiting. but I expect somebody better than those who weren’t good enough to play football for two years.
by CowboysFanatic on May 20, 2009 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions
You keep saying this, Fight
but why are you so worried about those teams? I don’t think it really matters what those guys are doing. I understand the point you are making that a team can get by without a competent back-up, but that doesnt diminish my desire to have one. If we have an injury to our NT, it will really hurt us (as it would the Pats, Steelers, Chargers, etc.)
Another point I want to make is that I feel this position (back-up NT) is a higher priority than some of the other roles getting attention with the team, such as a 12th outside linebacker, third string TE, or special teams gunner.
Actually,
Hampton did hurt a few years ago, and the guy they brought in to replace him was very admirable.
by Mandmeisterx on May 20, 2009 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions
If we are modeled after Parcells 3-4 scheme...
…Take a look at their backup NT since Jason Ferguson is only 305
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/teams/mia/depthchart
Paul Soliai is Leonard Davis sized. Not that he drafted him but as in control as he is… He made sure to keep that big fellow in there for backup.
Oh and Tim Remi played for the Saints last season cuz he was cut after training camp I believe…
Our current NT backups include Junior Siavii (hasn’t played in 3 seasons, has good size and getting old), Tim Anderson (hasn’t played in 2 seasons, has good age and undersized) and now Jonas Seawright (hasn’t played in 2 seasons but has good size and age).
How do you feel about this in a crunch at a moments notice to step in and contribute at NT in YOUR 3-4 defense? You want to throw the injury question out?? Must we remind you of Tony Romo and the importance of having someone AT LEAST capable of COMPETING (Ahmm, Brad Johnson)…….. Really!!!?!!!?!!!?!!!
God 1st, Family Always & Dallas Cowboys 4 Life!!!!!
Couple things:
First, I’d include Remi Ayodele ahead of everybody but Siavii on your backup NT list there.
Second, I agree if our starting NT goes down, we’re in serious trouble. However, that’s the case with almost ANY TOP PLAYER ON OUR TEAM. If Ware goes down, Greg Ellis turns into an every down starter, which he showed last year he is not capable of being productive at anymore. If Bradie James goes down, you’re starting Brooking and Carpenter as ILBs, which to me is worse than our NT prospects. If Roy Williams goes down, you’re starting Austin and Crayton at WR. Etc. etc. What you seem to want is immunity to injury— a back up at every position who can compete for a starting job and produce if put in the line-up. There are almost no teams in the league that have the level of depth you are suggesting at all positions. We have it at some, but expecting it everywhere is not realistic.
To answer your question, and as I said in my original post, if Ratliff went down, my answer would not be throwing Tim Anderson into the starting line-up and hoping that we can continue our base 3-4 with no drop off. Instead, I think Wade would be flexible, as he was last year when he had limited options at SS and played with 3 CBs and 1 FS instead. I would think we’d do a lot more formations with 46 and 4 man line looks, which would allow you to use Spears and Hatcher inside, with Ware as one of your ends and Ellis or Spencer or Olshansky as your other. That to me makes for a much better non-Ratliff front 7 than what you’re suggesting.
Larry Allen benched 700 pounds. That is Leonard Davis times two.
U've got to think outside ur box...
I know that we don’t look forward to injury. I know that it’s the same as if we lost Demarcus Ware. The main point I’m tryin to have u understand in my opinion is that NO having Bobby Carpenter (who u said was a worse off case than our NT situation) would not be worse. Why because we’ve SEEN that Bobby Carpenter can at least be mediocre/average in any linebacker spot on the team when he got in the game. The depth behind Jay Ratliff has not played in SEASONS… meaning that they were not even average enough to be selected!!! There is an extreme dropoff after Jay Ratliff who in my opinion again is not rightly fitted for the position in the first place. You CAN NOT throw out injury situations without decent talent behind the starters unless you are 100% sure your starters are going to last the whole season and never age a day after the game!!!! It is a MUST to the think about the depth (I say that again because I don’t think you’re not understanding the Tony Romo/Brad Johnson situation like I did). Yes Wade Phillips has defensive enginuity to switch things up and go 4-6 and other looks but again with who (Igor-ok, Spears-ok, Hatcher-ok, Bowen-uhm ok, then the scrubs who’ve not played in seasons). Another reason is I don’t like having our guys practice the 3-4 all offseason and then…Bam… now we’ll have to change everything because of our lack of finding decent depth behind one player. The other examples you pointed out about in Roy Williams and such is just even more reason why I and MANY others were not satisfied with the draft. If Demarcus went down I’d be ok with Ellis playing as much as we could get him to play. The depth behind Ratliff is worse than our unproven rookies in an aspect because they are proven not worthy of being signed in the last few seasons…. So behind Ware again… there is Williams (the linebacker) or any of those guys we just drafted (one of very few selections that made some sense). How do you place Remi ahead of anyone when he is not on our team is confusing me as well… He played for the Saints last season and is still apart of their team!!!
God 1st, Family Always & Dallas Cowboys 4 Life!!!!!
Please read my original post
I address the injury question there. It’s not a realistic one to ask.
Larry Allen benched 700 pounds. That is Leonard Davis times two.
Good post, but the answer is still YES.
Nice breakdown of Ratliff’s season last year and it does give me a little comfort that he could last an entire regular season and still be effective.
However, I still think we need a space eater in certain defensive looks and to keep Rat fresh. He plays with such a motor that he’s bound to get worn down during the course of games. It would be useful to know his effectiveness by quarter during games.
I’ve mentioned this before, so apologies to those who have already heard it, but great defenses start with a great Defensive Line. No question the best D Line in today’s NFL is the Giants. And each year they keep adding new pieces to that mix so that they can keep a strong rotation and keep their guys fresh. They signed Canty to a $42M deal and I’m not sure he will even start for them. If he does, it will require a position switch because there is no way he’s unseating Umenyiora or Tuck. In addition to those three mentioned, the Giants also have Kiwanuka, Bernard, Robbins, and Cofield. That’s SEVEN starter-quality D Linemen. In comparison, Dallas has three.
Look back at our Championship years. In 1995, we had Haley, Maryland, Tolbert, Hennings, Lett and Shante Carver on the D Line rotation. We played a four man front back then, but thats six solid contributors. In ’92 and ’93 it was even better as we had EIGHT in the D Line rotation: Haley, Maryland, Tolbert, Hennings, Lett, Casillas, Jeffcoat, and Jimmie Jones.
It’s a little different in the Phillips 3-4 because we bring pressure from the linebackers such as Ware, Ellis, and Spencer, so I get that. I’m not suggesting we need to have eight, or even six strong D Linemen. But we need more than three.
High motor pass rushers like Ratliff are not easy to find, and they typically (Jay was the exception) go high in the draft. But the space eaters with little push can be had later in the draft or developed. Guys like Chris Baker (undrafted), Sammie Lee Hill (4th round), and Vaugh Martin (4th round) are all 325 lbs or better and were available later in the draft. Guys like this can be cultivated into useful cogs in certain defensive schemes. They can also prolong the life of other players.
+1
If you elevate yourself from the world of stats and go watch how we got pushed around in the middle against tough o-lines in December, then you would never even ask the question. You’d shout from the rooftops “why didn’t we draft some guy with Nate Newton’s ass to sit in there and hold ground at the point of attack?!?”
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Nate Newton was an OL. He's not what I'm looking for in a penetrating DT/NT
I don’t think the problem with the run defense in December was all Ratliff. If you’re thinking specifically of those two long runs in the Ravens game, I’d put the blame more on our DEs, our ILBs, and our SS.
Larry Allen benched 700 pounds. That is Leonard Davis times two.
The point was...
that we HAVE a penetrating NT in Ratliff but lack someone who can be the Ngata, Wilfork, Hampton, Jenkins, Rogers, Williams (need I go on?) kind of space eater, that all good 3-4’s have, to hold the point and give Rat a breather or let him slide outside in certain alignments.
Thanks for the update on Newton, though…
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
High motor pass rushers like Ratliff are not easy to find, and they typically (Jay was the exception) go high in the draft. But the space eaters with little push can be had later in the draft or developed. Guys like Chris Baker (undrafted), Sammie Lee Hill (4th round), and Vaugh Martin (4th round) are all 325 lbs or better and were available later in the draft. Guys like this can be cultivated into useful cogs in certain defensive schemes. They can also prolong the life of other players.
Look at 2 of the large NTs that Wade Phillips used earlier in his career, Jamal Williams and Ted Washington, what did they had in common in their primes? Other than their huge size? They were capable of playing, and well, in Wade’s one gap scheme. Which means that they had good to great motors and the ability to hit a gap with quickness, collapse the pocket and make plays before the LOS.
Out of all the 3-4 NTs drafted in this past draft the only guy that demonstrated that kind of ability in a consistent basis is B.J. Raji, the other guys didn’t showed that ability at all or were either too inconsistent or showed ability in a much lower level of competition.
I think that the team saw that and decided that they would give Ratliff rest by using the 3-4 in less snaps, or at least that’s what the emphasis on drafting LBs and DBs told me, those players fit all the other schemes.
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
Williams and Washington
Are more the space eaters than high motor backfield disruptors. Williams has 13 career sacks in 11 years, an average of 1 sack per year. Washington has 34.5 sacks in 15 years, an average of 2 sacks per year. On the other hand, Ratliff had 7.5 last year alone.
I know that’s only one stat, but I dont have other (like tackles for loss or hurries) available to me at this time. I would assume they show something similar which makes me think these guys werent collapsing the pocket as much as you are suggesting.
Late in their careers, yes. When Wade coached them, no.
They were space eaters, but they played well in Wade’s one gap scheme. This is one of the biggest misconceptions, my friend, Wade’s known because he’s always used a one gap scheme and in his one gap scheme the NT attacks the gap in one of the Center shoulders and that means that he will either be single or double teamed. In Parcells’, and somewhat in Belichick’s, 3-4 the NT really needs to be a space eater because he attacks the Center head on and needs to read and react fast to the way the play is coming.
But why weren’t they more productive? That’s were they size didn’t helped them, they can, or could, collapse the pocket by themselves, but they didn’t had the wheels to get to the QB in a consistent basis. They always had high TFL (tackles for losses) or STFs (stuffs, which may be carries for a loss or for no gain) numbers. For example, Jamal Williams needs a backup at his 33 years of carrying his weight and finished with 7 STFs last year. Ratliff while much more agile, young and taking on less double teams finished with 5.5.
Ted Washington had the same kind of production.
It isn’t just a matter of finding a space eater, one of those doesn’t work very well in Wade’s scheme, that’s why Pat Williams wasn’t known for being any good with Wade in Buffalo. Gregg Williams took over and Pat Williams suddenly became one of the League’s best DTs.
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
No, that's just simply and completely erroneous
Sorry, but it is…
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
+ another
I remember reading somewhere before that a 3-4 NT is supposed to be a “Grit no Glory” type of lineman. His glory would come from the stats that are not so flashy in Tackles for Loss and Stuffing the Line. My ideal person in the draft was Ron Brace for that reason. B.J. Raji would be nice but I question his motive as far as what I just stated about Grit No Glory. I am a STRONG believer that the defense starts with the Offensive & Defensive Lines and they carry more resposibilty than the rest of the team as units. Then on those units things start with the center player (Center & NT/DT) so that’s the order of play resposibility. In that case if we only have 3 down lineman the size should equal that of a 4 man line. GIVE ME a Mammoth in the middle if this were my team!!! Ratliff is an exception but I’d still AT LEAST want a decent sized and talented mammoth ready to step in at a moments notice!!!
God 1st, Family Always & Dallas Cowboys 4 Life!!!!!
We need a viable back up NT. Peroid.
The opinion of a formation change as a substitute for personel deficiencies is not an informed one.
That limits what you can do defensively.
They don’t shift defensive fronts just for the sake of shifting them. There is some strategy involved with how the game is unfolding and how the defensive front is determined, let alone the whole defense.
I can elaborate if needed.
True, but...
… Last year we had first hand evidence that the 46 defense can work with the team personel and deserves more snaps, especially now that our team added a few more player that fit the scheme.
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
4-6 defense should be reserved for special "occasions"
we drafted for a 3-4 defense. Wade likes pass rushers – who doesn’t?
I don’t think in those terms when someone mentions a 46. 46 defense is an augmentation of the 3-4 and should be used strategically.
Not because someone needs a rest. That is rediculous. I don’t know of any DCord – on any level – that would employ a scheme simply to give someone a breather. It undermines the ability for the DCord to adjust in any way they see fit.
What if the team is throttling you with curls and posts simply because you march out there in a 46? Play action passes?
What if the best scheme for that drive is a 3-4? If Ratt is injured you’re SOL.
We need a backup NT.
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