Eli Manning best QB in NFC?
by DC_fan on Jun 1, 2009 1:18 PM CDT
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So I was reading this article by Mosley on his blog, and came across this gem:
Let me add this opinion on Manning to "freshen" things up a bit: I think he's hands down the best quarterback in the NFC East -- and perhaps the entire NFC.
Seriously? Is Mosley high or does he really believe this? I think maybe, maybe, the argument for NFC East can be made since he's the only one in the division with a ring. But trying to set my rose colored glasses aside, I still think he is #3 in the division. Now, you may argue that my Cowboys bias has something to do with that, but even ignoring the NFC east, I don't know that he's even in the top 5 in the conference.
I guess Mosley just doesn't want to piss off a quarter of the readers of his blog. What do you guys think? What QB's in the NFC would you rank ahead of Manning?
Another user-created commentary provided by a BTB reader.
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ummm ...
off the top of my head … the guys I’d want right now over Eli …
Warner
McNabb
Brees
and Mosley’s a tool.
Booyah!
According to Pro Football Weekly
In the NFC it goes Brees, Warner, Romo/McNabb/Cutler (all 3 have the same score yet Romo is put in front of both) and then Eli….
It shows that Mosely is an idiot
"We play to win the game" - Herm Edwards
by nicholas.rodriguez on Jun 1, 2009 1:36 PM CDT reply actions
That about looks like the list I had in my head
Eli just doesn’t scare me. Just because Tyree saved his ass in the SB, he is now the greatest QB in the NFC? I don’t think so.
"So you can’t stiff arm at all? What about the throat?"- Marion "Barbarian" Barber
Yea
I buy that list, though i like romo/cutler over mcnabb at this point in his career.
It's not as though he plays in a great
division for pass defense now. The Lions and Vikings are terrible against the pass. The Pack really tailed off at the end of last year, and they keep getting older and more injured.
+1
I’m not sure how much better his competition will be this year.
Not so easy to pass the ball in Chicago when winter comes...
or GB for that matter.
In both places, it is not just the precipitation, but the wind lows everything off course. Much different than in Denver where the snow falls vertically.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
It's debateable whether Eli is even the best Giants QB this decade.
Kerry Collins was never MVP-worthy but he did have two monster games in the playoffs the likes of which Eli hasn’t yet sniffed. Plus, those Giants teams had middle-of-the-road running attacks not nearly as effective as the three-headed monster.
Good grief
That just doesn’t even pass either the smell test or the laugh test, or even a pregnancy test.
The Giants pretty much win in spite of Eli Manning. When opposing coaches gameplan for the Giants, I imagine that before containing Eli, they worry first about the defensive line and the running game, and maybe even their special teams.
I give Eli props for being a key but not really indispensible part of their championship drive in 2007. But otherwise, he’s “pulled a Romo” in his three other playoff seasons – one and done!
Just to correct your cowboys bias
I think you have to put Eli as the 2nd best in the division with Romo a close third (just by virtue of the 2007 playoff run and Eli’s clutch performance at the end of the SB). That said, if I had my choice, (and assuming I have some good coaches who could coach him up) I’d take Romo over Eli. Now maybe this is my Cowboys’ bias showing, but Eli has never been asked to do as much as Tony has been asked to do.
"Confidence doesn't come out of nowhere. It's a result of something... hours and days and weeks and years of constant work and dedication." --Roger Staubach
+1
Well said.
Also, you could argue that Eli’s success came with a lesser supporting cast, which adds weight to his high ranking.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
That's debatable
How has he ever had a lesser supporting cast? He had Tiki Barber, who was far better than any RB the Cowboys have had since about 1998 and the virtually unstoppable Brandon Jacobs, who is probably as good or even slightly better that Marion Barber. I’d also place Plaxixo Buress near TO’s skill level, and the Giants offensive line is about a million times better than the Cowboys.
Never mind that the Giants defense kills the Cowbiys defense. Kills it.
In Eli's Super Bowl Year..
How many Pro bowlers came from New York? How many came from Dallas?
Everything is debatable, because you can debate things even with insufficient grounds, as it is in this case.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
You know better; Pro Bowls are a joke of a popularity contest.
What’s indisputable was that Eli played the sorriest football of his career in Weeks 15 and 16 of that season when the Giants were still fighting for their playoff lives. 25-of-67, 295 YDS, 1 TD, 2 INT. And the 2 picks came in only 15 pass attempts versus the Bills. Eli was an albatross around the Giants’ neck down the stretch and if the rest of that team didn’t play well enough to overcome his struggles, they wouldn’t have even made the playoffs.
But can't you say that about all QB's?
Didn’t the Cowboys defense keep it close enough in the Buffalo game after umpteen INT’s to allow Romo an opportunity to have an epic comeback? Point is, it’s how you play in money games, hence the Aikman/Young comparison.
In any case, it doubtful that anyone who is objective would say the 13-3 Dallas Cowboys, who had the #1 seed in the playoffs, with 12 (eventually 13) Pro Bowlers, had a LESS talented or ballyhooed roster (especially on offense) than the Giants.
For that reason, I don’t think that it is reasonably debatable who had more to work with. Romo did. He still does…
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
To be clear......
It’s not so much that I have a problem with the Eli/Romo comparison or even that in some people’s eyes Eli is better than Romo. I believe Jeff Garcia had the most TD passes in back-to-back seasons in 9ers franchise history (don’t quote me on that) and all these years later what is his legacy? So I can totally see the case for Romo suffering a sharp decline. If some folks’ gut feeling is that Romo just doesn’t have it whatever the hell that is, I don’t think they should be raked over an open fire for voicing that opinion.
It’s not about that. Eli just isn’t all that great at this point in his career. It doesn’t matter what’s he had to work with because I’ve seen erratic throw after erratic throw and in the playoff loss to the Eagles this past season, Eli badly sailed throws including the one that led to the game-sealing pick for the Eagles.
As far as money games go, a week 5 Monday Nighter when you’re 4-0 is not a money game. Week 15 and 16 games when you’re fighting for a spot in the playoffs are the very definition of money games. Also, you’re full of it if you think Eli played nearly as well as Aikman or Young during the Giants Super Bowl run. He played efficient and had lots of luck on that final drive against the Patsies. If you want to talk about a Giants QB who had a rocky regular season and then played nearly perfect during the postseason, that man’s name is Phil Simms.
I understand your perspective
and appreciate it for what it is.
But there is another aspect of being an NFL QB that often goes undervalued. Your point about Eli’s throws being erratic is valid. But what you fail to recognize is how, despite his poor throws, he made so few game changing mental errors in money games (i.e. fumbles, INT’s, not making the checkdown, etc.) that he put his team in position to win.
My knock on Romo is that sometimes, he tries to do too much. That generally leads to outcomes that are detrimental to the Cowboys. In money games especially, Romo has made some questionable decisions. I’ve suggested that David Lee was a key cog in Romo’s development and I’ve been critical of Wade Wilson, but that’s another story altogether.
Regardless, I would ask you to rethink your position on Eli (and what it takes to be a winning QB in general), since I belive it is somewhat narrow in scope. You’ve placed a great deal of marquee value on “luck” and not enough weight on how guys like Roethlisberger and Eli and others know the value of taking a sack or throwing one into the dirt so you can take another shot on the next play and help your team win.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
the rub is however
Romo’s worst trait, trying to do too much, is also what makes him special, you can’t have it both ways.
Me personally, I’ll take the bad with the good because throughout his career, his big plays have outnumbered his bad plays about 2 to 1, I’ll take that ratio any day.
In Romo we Trust
Not me
I’ll take the blings.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
True
but given a choice, I’ll take the blings, which usually come from the team that makes fewer mental errors, not the team that makes more highlight reel plays.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
notice you said team
eli and hte giants run game don’t have to overcome constant penalties from the oline. They don’t have a complete utter liability in their secondary like jacque reeves was for us in 07. TEAM. They are not better than us at every position because they played better as a team.
i disagree COMPLETELY
How many times have we seen eli blown late season/playoff games with unbelievably bad ints.
He gets so much credit for his playoff performance when he was only slightly better than a game manager.
Yes, Yes, Yes...
because Romo is known for his heady play and not throwing “unbelievably bad INT’s”.
Come on, throwing bad INT’s is not what Eli is known for among the masses. That IS, however, what Romo is criticized for.
The fact remains, Romo throws INT’s more often than Eli.
I’d like to see him overcome that!
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
I don't think Romo is known for throwing bad ints
I would say he’s more known for his propensity to fumble.
more often???
Eli has thrown 74 INTs in 71 games started, Romo has thrown 46 in 39 games started.
Not much more often, but Romo has thrown for 81 TDs over 39 games whereas Eli has thrown for only 98 TDs in 71 games.
Therefore Romo’s TD/INT ratio is almost 2:1 whereas Eli’s is closer to 1:1.
In Romo we Trust
Romo has a slightly higher int% than Eli
3.5 ints per 100 passes, as compared to 3.2 for Manning.
which does not in any way shape or form
account for the fact that our offense is built around our passing game while theirs is built around their run game. Romo throws .3 more INTs per 100 throws than eli despite that eli isn’t too much more than a game manager while romo has all the pressure on him all te time
Interesting perspective, but...
Let’s take the Giant fans opinions on the first 2 aspects that helped their team be successful in that particular year:
1. The DLine.
2. The run.
Let’s look at the Cowboys, what made them successful in 2007?
1. The pass.
2. The pass pressure.
I can’t see Manning in the first 2 aspects, he was just handing off. And I can see Romo in the first aspect. Romo was more important and related to the Cowboys “success” than Manning was, maybe that’s one of the Cowboys problems as they should take some of the pressure off Romo’s shoulders…
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
Can't run away from this...
Fewer mistakes = more chances to win.
It really is that simple.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
only if your team
has a really good defense and running game. Otherwise, your qb needs to make plays.
In Romo we Trust
So this year u would rather have dilfer terry?
I think our strengths will be our defense and run game so you better get him out of that analyzing gig.
I disagree
As long as Romo is qb and Garrett is OC, our strength will be our passing game.
We can only hope our defense and running game is better this year.
In Romo we Trust
when has our strength been our run game??
3 good running backs does not equal a good run game. This line just does not run block well unless its the fourth quarter and they’ve already worn the defense down. Likewise, they get too many penalties in the run game. Overall, we are just in too many long yardage situations, which is why we pass so much.
The run game was pretty good in 07
I think inconsistentcy is the problem though, plus a lack of committing to the run.
Dallas actually ranked in the top half of YPC on running for 07 and 08.
But you are right, this is a pass team. Of course there are nothing wrong with short passes to the runningbacks.
it was weird, I... I mean you probably didn't hear about it because I went under the name of Mike Honcho. But I just wanted you to know that. If you can hear me, if it got into your brain somehow. That I spread my buttcheeks as Mike Honcho.
I think that the run got crippled last year
Felix and Barber went down and the team relied on Choice, and there’s a reason for the team not trusting Choice much early on the season, the Offense with Choice became simpler, he was a rookie that made the best out of the simplistic offense.
Let’s see what happens this coming season, for starters Houck in his 2nd year should do a much better job.
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
Eli has ten games in his career
where his passer rating was below 65 yet the Giants still won. Those ten wins are nearly a quarter of his career regular season victories. In four of those games his passer rating was below 50! Just goes to show that in many cases, Eli has just been along for the ride. Barely.
And who can forget such classic losses as when he threw 4 ints against Minnesota (3 of which were returned for touchdowns), or when he threw 53 times against the Redskins and completed just 18 passes, or when he completed 36% of his passes in a late season, must win game against the Saints in 2006.
But yes, he did sort of step it up in the 2007 playoffs. Gotta give him that.
Extending that logic...
you would have to say Carson Palmer is better than Big Ben, because many of Carson’s #’s are better.
I reject that notion. I have to…
For the same reason that I think Aikman was a better QB than Steve Young (Aikman’s stats were nowhere close to Young’s, but Aikman had the better big game performances…and more of them), Eli, at this moment in time is the better QB. Incidentally, he is one of only only two active starting QB’s (the other is Warner) in the NFC with a SB ring. That’s crazy!!!
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
My logic is impeccable
The Giants often win despite terrible games from their starting quarterback. This goes against the NFL norm. Even Ben Roethlisberger’s Steelers are only 4-10 when Big Ben has bad games (rating of 65 of less). Eli is just extra fortunate. Besides, I’m pretty sure that Ben has better numbers than Carson Palmer. Roethlisberger is, to me, the best QB in the NFL, winning-wise and statistically speaking.
"extra fortunate"
Hmmm…
That isn’t what I would call impeccable logic.
To each their own…
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
He is extra fortunate
to play for a team that can win 2-3 games a season in spite of his horrible play. Or the Giants are fortunate that they can win games despite having their QB lay huge eggs. Either one.
Is that what you say about Aikman?
That he was extra fortunate to play on a great team that could overcome his mistakes and that he’s somehow not as worthy of his HOF bust as we all thought?
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Don't get me started about Aikman
but at the same time, don’t even think about comparing him with Eli. There was certainly some points in Aikman’s career where one could realistically say that he was one of the best 1-3 best QB’s in the NFC, and certainly in the NFC East (91-95). That’s what this thread is about, that Eli is or isn’t the best QB in the NFC, right?
Besides, when Aikman played poorly during that time frame, the team was .500 (7-7). And frankly his “poor” games were way better than Eli’s poor games.
You missed the point
The question is, do you mark down Aikman for not having gaudy stats but instead having the luxury of being “extra fortunate” to hand the ball off to the league’s best RB or throw to the league’s best WR or play behind the league’s best o-line?
If you do, then your logic is universally applied and I give you credit. If not, then you’re being selective in the application of your logic and reasoning won’t be any benefit to you.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Yeah, I think Aikman was fortunate
to play with such a great team. I have always thought that Emmitt and Irvin were of greater value to the team than Aikman. Never mind his o-line or even the special teams that they had back then. Frankly, I didn’t think he was worthy of a first-ballot Hall of Famer. I didn’t get to vote, however.
Eli has also been fortunate in that he’s never missed any time due to injury. I’d be willing to bet that if he did ever get hurt, the Giants would hardly miss a beat with a backup QB, so long as it was someone with a little experience, like a Steve Beurlein or Bernie Kosar or Rodney Peete or Jason Garrett.
So Aikman had 27 turnover seasons in the Cowboys' Super Bowl years? That's news to me.
Refresh my memory, please. Aikman had 32 total turnovers during the Cowboys’ 3 Super Bowl seasons. Meanwhile, Eli had 27 turnovers in ’07.
I’m not totally sold on Romo as the Cowboys savior either but the factbending some folks do to kiss Eli’s butt just at the expense of crapping on Romo is very, very amusing.
Huh?
Have you moved the target on this conversation again?
Based on what you said here, are we now talking about turnovers as the measuring stick by how we measure Romo and Eli? If so, Tony loses that argument.
What “factbending” are you referring to?
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
You plainly said....
“Is that what you say about Aikman? That he was extra fortunate to play on a great team that could overcome his mistakes”……..That comment has no basis because Aikman rarely made mistakes in the regular season or postseason during his team’s Super Bowl seasons. There is no comparison between him and Eli. So I was taking umbrage with you trying to compare Eli and Aikman at all. Aikman’s ‘92-’93 playoff totals: 68.5 completion percentage, 265 ypg, and of course 8 TD, O INT. Eli: 60.0 completion percentage (but in the games where he actually attempted over 30 passes, he only completed about half of them) 216 ypg, 6 TD, 1 INT. Of course, in Eli’s case the one that got away is the easy pick Ashante Samuels dropped. I guess you could compare the two based on Eli having a flawless postseason, for the most part, but I just don’t see it. At his best, Aikman made big plays AND was flawless.
Furthermore, Eli’s status as some great game manager is based on one 4-game stretch and in my view is unfounded. Sure, he cut his turnovers in half last season but when it came playoff time he threw two horribly thrown balls that got picked.
Somewhere this conversation got honked up
…because I was never comparing Aikman to Eli, I was trying to get a basis for whether or not being lucky enough to play on a great team mitigated one’s status as a (great) player or not. That came from the discussion about Big Ben, not Aikman per se.
If you read the order of the posts, I think you were the first to make that Aikman to Eli comparison. So that’s why I am confused…
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
No way. You brought up Aikman.
Look upthread a little. Plain as day:
“Is that what you say about Aikman?
That he was extra fortunate to play on a great team that could overcome his mistakes and that he’s somehow not as worthy of his HOF bust as we all thought?”
Which is nonsensical because during the Cowboys’ SB seasons, Aikman never played as crappy as Eli did in Weeks 15 and 16 of the ‘07 season. Aikman simply didn’t make mistakes that needed to be overcome so that was a comment without any actual basis in reality.
At any rate, I agree the original conversation wasn’t really about Aikman so I’ll leave him out of it. As far as Eli goes, maybe his supporting cast hasn’t been as good as Romo’s, but I’ve seen him make plenty of horrible throws where no matter who the intended recipient was the pass sucked. Having Hall Of Famers as a supporting cast doesn’t correct that.
And here’s something else to consider. If you call Romo a mental lightweight who lacks leadership because he couldn’t deal with T.O. bitching about his catches, doesn’t the same go for Eli’s relationship with Shockey? However much of an uberdouche Shockey was, he was still a better receiver than Kevin Boss. Furthermore, if Eli has been that great for so long, how come the Giants didn’t win squat when they had much better skill position players in Tiki and Shockey? Could it be because reasons 1-50 that the Giants won the Super Bowl was because they had a lethal pass rush?
Oh boy...
Let’s get this straight. I invoked Aikman’s name. You compared him to Eli. Can we at least agree on that? If not, whatever.
LOL
Okay, next topic.
Yes! to be clear, I think Eli is as guilty of being immature (from a leadership perspective) as Romo. The only things that really separate the two of them seem to revolve around decision making and the fact that one has a SB ring and the other doesn’t.
And, even though people like like Terry don’t like it, yes, having the ring(s) does give guys like Ben and Eli a kind of free pass in some ways. I didn’t invent that reality, it just is.
You can’t take a guy whose claim to fame (and I am talking about beyond just the Cowboys blogosphere) is a botched FG hold, a superstar girlfriend with a thyroid disorder and an inability (to this point) to lead his team over the hump over a guy who was a highly touted #1 draft pick and has led his team to a Super Bowl win, thus living up to the hype.
You just can’t do it.
It’s like people whining about ESPN hating the Cowboys, nobody cares!
For Romo to leapfrog Eli, he just has to win the big one. Simple to understand, elegant in its clarity of mission and very much true.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Ben plays consistently GREAT in the playoffs
which is why i would have him over everyone except brady and peyton. He is often average -decent in the regular season. Eli hasn’t seen anything near the playoff success ben has. Look at the steeles two superbowls – ben was great throughout those playoff runs. Eli was average during his. I really don’t see the comparison, unless you’re only considering Ws and not how the qbs play in those games.
thats why he has the record
for the worst qb rating of a winning QB in SB history. He was horrible in SB 40 and played poorly in his first few playoff games as well and I don’t remember him lighting up the Jags in 2007 playoff game either.
In Romo we Trust
Roethlisberger is a great playoff QB (87.2 rating)
Pittsburgh may have won Super Bowl 40 despite his poor play, but he has been largely responsible for all their other playoff wins. Anyone remember this past Super Bowl? Jesus, that last drive was better than anything someone like Romo, Aikman or even Staubach ever dreamed of, when you consider the circumstances.
As for his 2007 performance against the Jaguars, Roethlisberger performed just as heroically as Aikman did in the 1994 NFC Champ game. Actually, more so, since he brought his team back from a 28-10 deficit to take the lead. Not his fault the defense let Garrad run for 32 yards on 4th and one.
+1
You can’t diminish the play of Big Ben in that game. If you love football, you loved seeing him dig deep to bring his team back.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Romo, Aikman and Staubach could have done the same thing
under the same circumstances, don’t kid yourself. Are you forgetting Holmes got open and made all those catches??
BTW, 87.2 isn’t great, not much better than Romo’s playoff rating.
In Romo we Trust
Benplay after play
bought time in the pocket to help his wrs out. That can’t be ignored.
87.2 includes some pretty crappy games that i’m not referring too. If you play good/great in 7/8 of your last 9 playoff games, you’re likely to win most of them and with the steelers D, are a near lock to win a superbowl
Btw Tom Brady's playoff rating is "only" 88
so he must be overrated, and Terry Bradshaw’s is just 83, and Troy Aikman’s was a meager 88.3, so I guess their playoff performances weren’t great either.
87 is solid for so many playoff games
and is 12 points higher for Romo’s much smaller sample size of two games.
I guess Romo, Aikman and Staubach “could have” replicated Roethlisberger’s last second Super Bowl-winning touchdown drive…but they didn’t. To be fair, Aikman never had the need to. But to dimish the accomplishment by saying “Holmes got open,” geez. I guess Drew Pearson “got open” for the Hail Mary.
Then
Going by your logic, if Pearson deserves as much credit for that play as Staubach, Holmes deserves as much as Ben.
Drew Pearson wasn't open, and the ball was underthrown.
It was a desperation heave, Staubach didn’t have much choice really. And Drew should get all the credit for reaching back through the defender and making that catch!
by Realist Larry on Jun 4, 2009 11:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Not intially, but he got open obviously
A lot of fans think he pushed off but it doesn’t matter, he separated from the defender and got open to make the catch.
Staubach still should get some credit for throwing the pass as Pearson can’t throw and catch it himself.
In Romo we Trust
+1
He played A+ football in the 2005 playoffs leading up to the superbowl, you can’t say hes not a playoff performer because he had 1 bad game. He was similarly great this last year in the playoffs. And he has in no way been a game manager in these years.
46 sacks/year...
He’s getting sacked 3 times a game. No way is he game managing. He’s running for his life and that makes his wins even that much more laudable.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
just think
If someone were to read the last 10 comments, they would think they were on the a Steelers blog, I’m not sure actual Steelers fans could defend Roethlisberger any better.
In Romo we Trust
I can recognize and give credit
to a NFL HOF-caliber type player when I see one…and to be honest, I might be a little envious.
give me a break
Ben has to accomplish a lot more that 2 rings to be HOF caliber….thats a joke.
If that’s the only criteria, then Jim Plunkett is a HOF qb as well.
In Romo we Trust
Roethlisberger HAS accomplished a lot more
than just win two Super Bowls (including one for the absolute ages that will live on in NFL lore forever), like lead his team to four division titles, win NFL Rookie of the Year, win two other playoff classics and earn an 89 career passer rating – all by the ripe old age of 27.
If anyone thinks Ben Roethlisberger has more in common with Jim Plunkett than QBs like Joe Montana, Troy Aikman and Tom Brady, raise your hand.
But God bless Jim Plunkett for resurrecting a promising career and winning two Super Bowls, both as significant underdogs.
Plunkett always threw a beautiful deep ball
Him, Steve Bartkowski, Terry Bradshaw and Vince Ferragamo always amazed me in how they could create so much arc on the ball and land it right in the hands of a WR like Cliff Branch who was running a streak.
Simply awe-inspiring.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
well hell certainly have to continue to play well
i don’t think 4 great years makes a HOF qb. But hes well on his way.
Interesting...
Are there any QB’s who’ve won multiple (2 or more) Super Bowls who AREN’T in the HOF?
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Terry actually answered this without formally answering it.
Plunkett has two rings and isn’t in the HOF.
Sorry
I meant anyone else?
Certainly not anyone who won 2 on the same team…
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
So it is safe to say that Big Ben is a lock for HOF?
Having led his team to 2 SB titles…
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
not yet obviously
He still needs to put up decent career numbers as Plunkett proves.
In Romo we Trust
i don't consider myself a homer
I admire great qb play, especially in the playoffs. Brady and Warner are a joy to watch for their mastery of the game and how they seem to pick their game up in the playoffs. I wouldn’t consider ben a guy to model your game after, but you can’t argue with what he does – he makes nfl dlineman look like schoolchildren in the playoffs. Time and time again he escapes tackles and extends plays and makes money throws. And its not like his receivers are a bunch of all pros like the ones warners been paired with.
Thank you Terry, I take that as a compliment!
When you can make someone else’s argument for them (for example, yours is ‘Romo is the Greatest no matter what he does wrong and the rest of the world is just too stupid to realize it’), you can generate legitimacy that allows you to make a point that is perceived less emotionally. In other words, people will trust you more if you demonstrate you can not only see both sides, but can argue the merits of both sides.
I think many of your arguments (again, you seem to revolve around the one above) generally sink simply because they refuse to see the reality of some situations. This thread being a good example.
As I said before, generally speaking, I only disagree with you because you’re dead wrong. But I still very much respect your opinion and where it comes from.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
I've never made that argument
and I only disagree with you because you’re dead wrong as well. ;)
In Romo we Trust
Yeah...
I think it would be pretty debatable to put him #1 in the NFC East. He’s never really been put in too many positions where he had to win the game.
They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time it works, every time.
Ridiculous
sort of like that watch commercial that would come up in the ’07 season “Eli Manning is unstoppable…” My friend and I would always laugh at it.
I can’t believe anyone thinks Eli is the best anything, but less the best QB in the NFC. That notion is completely devoid of reality.
Can someone (who cares more than I) put some stats in this post from some of the QBs mentioned above. I realize that stats aren’t everything, but they’re an objective measure.
Eli is the best quarterback in the NFC
named Manning
Here's a blast from the past. Eli isn't even a pimple on Mark Rypien's ass.
And how many years was Rypien considered the best QB in the NFC East? But at least he was NFC Offensive Player of the Year the year the ‘Skins won it all. I’m not close-minded about Eli. He’ll be a starting QB for roughly 10 more years and the light could switch on at any point. I just seriously doubt it will.
Sure he’s shown flashes of greatness. And nobody will ever be able to take his championship or his win over the 18-0 Patsies away. But for most of his career, he’s been an erratic caretaker with a famous last name.
+1
And even if Eli never turns it on, he’ll be good enough when paired with a buress typ receiver and the giants oline to get them plenty of wins in his career. I’d never argue that hes a top 12 qb in this league. BUt what the heck does he have to do for the giants to win? not much.
Romo has a significantly heavier load on his shoulders, and until Eli consistently comes through when the giants need him like romo did for us from 06-pre arizona injury, I’ll take Romo. I know there is the argument that Romo has had better receivers, but Eli is much more innacurate, which makes me doubt how much competent wrs would help him.
In no particular order...
I’d take the following QB’s over Eli…
McNabb
Romo
Cutler
Rodgers
Ryan
Brees
I’d also strongly consider Hasslebeck and Warner (but only if we’re not considering age).
And as long as I’m here, let’s just go ahead and name the AFC QB’s too…
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Philip Rivers
Carson Palmer
Ben Roethlisberger
Also, if we’re not considering age, Kerry Collins. And I might even be tempted to say Matt Schaub, but I won’t.
Not considering age, Manning is no better than the 15th best QB in the NFL.
Eli makes one play in a SB
Escaping a sack and throwing a pass that was way over Tyree’s head, and suddenly he’s the best QB in the NFC, I think not.
The guy is average in comparison to all NFL QB’s. Middle of the pack. The Midgets depend on running the ball well and good defense to account for most of their success. Not their QB.
Training Camp '09 = Mega Thunder Dome....80 men enter, 53 men leave.
If Asante Samuel doesn't drop that easy INT on an AWFUL pass...
Eli Manning gets labeled a choke artist.
at first I thought your signature line
was a tasteless yet funny take on the practice facility collapse…but now I get it.
Everybody keeps forgeting the fumbles that the gints got to recover, they had about
2-3 fumbles and recovered all of them; lose one, and the game could have turned.
Ignore the Mainstream Media, EMBRACE THE HATE!!!!
Eli Manning
Eli Manning is in no way the best NFC quarterback. I would take several QB’s before I got to him including Romo, Brees, Cutler, Rodgers, McNabb, Warner, Ryan, and Hasselback. This just goes farther to show me that Matt Mosley is a great writer in the same way that Matt Millen was a great GM.
There are lots of people that go to church on Sundays to get in touch with God. Personally, my church is on Sunday as well, it just happens to involve watching the Dallas Cowboys.
The Most Athletic...
No of course not, he may be the least athletic QB in the NFL. But his football IQ and ability to read a defense maybe the best in the NFC and up to this point is far and beyond the best in the NFC East. He also seems to be a very calm and collected guy mentally all though he does seem to suffer from a bad case of the “dumb face” disease. I mean as much as I hate to say it he didn’t make it all the way to the Super Bowl and win it on a whim, but he also has an extremely strong running game to rely on with a very smart coaching staff that knows the best way to win with what they have. So personally yeah i would say he is the Best all around QB in the NFC.
" high and tight Martellus, high and tight."
aside from his games against us
where i admit, eli plays very well….I have watched many many giants games the last 4 years, living in new york. The guy craps out so many games, he hurts them so many times with dumb plays regularly and he doesn’t bring the positive advantages romo does. They win on the back of their defense and run game. RARELY has eli actually won games for that team (outside of playing us, of course). To say he is cool and collected is just wrong.
I do actually like eli as a person. I think he is pretty gutsy. He received a ton of criticism over the years, and while hes never imo been an elite qb, hes not a bad one by any means. Hes handled the criticism well.
he torches us
His only real bad game against us was the last one last year. Aside from that, he regularly kills us, although a lot of that had to do with plax and shockey.
I've never understood
why sportswriters think they look more “professional” when they pick other players/teams as better than their local teams.
I see it all the time, national people will pick underdogs and explain why to prove how smart they are and then local guys will pick rivals to show how “unbiased” they are. Sometimes it makes sense, but other times…it doesn’t. Why can’t people just be honest and not PC all the time?
the order of NFC East QBs from first to last
McNabb, Romo, Manning, and Campbell. Face it, as much as I hate the Eagles, he has horrible receivers every year
i think they're underrated
if he didn’t throw 3 -7passes a game into the ground/short of his receivers, they’d have won quite a few more games over the years. There have been plenty of times that hi receivers have gotten reasonable separation and he either refused throw (following his injury in 07) or misfred consistently (last year). He also has westbrook to bail him out of any situation whatsoever.
Not saying they’re better than ours, just that they aren’t and haven’t been as bad as everyone says. He tok worse receivers to championship games early this decade. Sorry, hes just not close to that level today.
Same order for me as well.
Although Mcnabb has great receivers this year. Desean, Curtis, Maclin, and Avant. I see career numbers for Mcnabb this year. Then we will see how good ol’ Mosely rates Eli higher than Mcnabb.
Although I might believe Homo…I mean Romo :) is the best QB for the first half of the year and Mcnabb the second half(which matters more of course).
Taking Route 36 will bring you to Touchdown,PHI
I love it when people push rookies as great receivers.
They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time it works, every time.
I loved it when...
DeSean, a rookie was a great receiver last year.
Taking Route 36 will bring you to Touchdown,PHI
Yes he was...
but you didn’t know that before the season. And I wouldn’t call 912 yards receiving and 2 tds exactly great. Those are great rookie numbers, but if he never gets any better than that… then those will be good numbers not great.
You don’t know that Jeremy Maclin is a great NFL receiver yet, for all you know he could be the next Freddie Mitchell or Robert Meachem.
They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time it works, every time.
Do you really think
a WR that had almost 1000 yard receiving his rookie year is never gonna get any better than that? That’s unheard of. Look at the stats from the best WRs in the game. Their 2nd year especially is always a huge improvement. Yes, you’re right about Maclin but DeSean is a true #1 this year, Kevin Curtis and Avant are great 2 and 3 receivers. We are stacked at WR. Maclin will only make us better.
Taking Route 36 will bring you to Touchdown,PHI
Maybe not probable but possible.
He wasn’t a great receiver last year, he was a good receiver that has the potential to be great.
Who is to say he ever has 1300 yards and 8 tds? You don’t know that.
Michael Clayton had a better rookie year than that and he hasn’t come close to it since.
This isn’t against you or philly fans, I just hate it when people claim greatness after one year. I got onto a Cowboys fan for claiming Felix Jones an all time great kick returner.
There is something I want to get off my chest. It's about that summer, when you went away to community college. I got an offer to do Playgirl Magazine, and I did it. I did a full spread for Playgirl Magazine. I mean spread man, I pulled my butt apart and stuff. I was totally nude. it was weird, I... I mean you probably didn't hear about it because I went under the name of Mike Honcho. But I just wanted you to know that. If you can hear me, if it got into your brain somehow. That I spread my buttcheeks as Mike Honcho.
True #1
BWAHAHAHAHAH!
His best play is described as, “Dude, just run really fast and I’ll throw it as far as I can. Cool?”
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.
-Winston Churchill
Oh yea?
Your “best” wide receiver had 36 total catches last year. Your 2,3,4 had a combined 52 catches. Crayton 39, Austin 13, and Sam Turd had 0. BWAHAHAHAHAHA!! at THAT.
Taking Route 36 will bring you to Touchdown,PHI
You know...
if you hit the reply button it actually replies to the person that just posted.
it was weird, I... I mean you probably didn't hear about it because I went under the name of Mike Honcho. But I just wanted you to know that. If you can hear me, if it got into your brain somehow. That I spread my buttcheeks as Mike Honcho.
Your team LT allowed what 11 sacks last year?
Oh, but I know, he missed all the offseason work and some of the early games of the season and we know how important that is for chemistry and everything else… Yes, now he’s expected to return to elite status.
Oh, Roy Williams missed the offseason with the Cowboys and was acquired in midseason, right after that Romo goes down injured and after that Williams plays with an injured wheel… Yes, he isn’t expected to be more than average, ever.
Interesting eagle perspective, has a green and silver tint.
Other than that, Hurd was on Injured Reserve for the whole year… Kind of hard to manage a catch in there… Pretty well informed guy… Not surprizing.
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
Roy Williams....
was sucking in Detroit before he even came to Dallas. Actually, i did know Sam Turd was in the IR. He had 19 catches in 16 gms the year before. I didn’t know LT was the same position as WR. 11 sacks or not he is still a back to back pro bowler. No other fan base is more knowledgeable than Eagles fans, so dont even bother with the sarcasm.
Taking Route 36 will bring you to Touchdown,PHI
c'mon crybaby, cry
I read your blogs weekly, you all are a bunch of turds—don’t flatter yourself. I guess if I lived in Philly I would hate my life, too.
The march of the trolls continues…
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.
-Winston Churchill
No other fan base is more knowledgeable than Eagles fans...
LOL.
Truely elite seasons in Jason Peters history? 1, 2007. He had a really good season in 2006, but he played 7 games at RT.
And in the end, the AFC East is known for it’s pass rush? In the last few years? No, it isn’t. Joey Porter last year and Vrabel in 2007 were the highlights…
Now, he will face the NFC East with Ware and Umenyiora… That’s a big jump up in competition.
But I can see your point of view, Jason Peters with his one elite season, one really good season and one awful season has much more upside than Roy Williams with one elite season, 2 really good ones, one just good and an awful one…
Oh, and I do know that Tackle and WR are 2 different positions, I’m just stating my opinion on the matter at hand, how one player acquisition receives such great reviews from “the most knowledgeable fan base in the League” and the other receives as much ridicule… Considering their actual success in the League, this makes me think about green and silver tint opinions…
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
for a team that has accomplished so little like the Eagles
Their fans talk so much.
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.
-Winston Churchill
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