Improved? Filling the half empty glass
A lot's been said and written about the team improving or else from the past year to this year, but what about 2007? Our team finished 13-3 and I don't think that they're less talented now, so, let's review the supposed starters and the depth and let's compare it to the 2007 team:
QB: Tony Romo, Jon Kitna and Stephen McGee - Tony Romo and Brad Johnson.
Wow, I can't even express the comfort that the current backups give me, even with McGee and no Kitna I would be more comfortable...
Satus: Massive upgrade.
WR: Roy Williams, Patrick Crayton, Miles Austin, Sam Hurd, Isaiah Stanback and Manuel Johnson - Terrell Owens, Patrick Crayton, Sam Hurd and Miles Austin.
How much of a downgrade depends on Roy Williams, but I have confidence, just because of one little mentioned thing that will help Romo. Romo worked with Keyshawn Johnson for 2 years as the 3rd and 2nd QB. Roy Williams can be much more explosive, but he really likes the kind of routes that Keyshawn used to run, routes that our team has rarely used because they haven't had a player with his skills (Crayton ran some, but with his size he couldn't run the full repertoire). Garrett needs lot look back to practice, game film and help Romo, Williams can be a very productive WR if he gets the routes and throws that he's capable of running.
Status: Downgrade.
TE: Jason Witten, Martellus Bennett and John Phillips - Jason Witten, Anthony Fasano and Tony Curtis.
Want to hear an interesting thought? I think that Bennett is waaaaay more gifted and talented than Witten, he just has a 2 cent head and the most likely thing is that he won't reach his full potential. But I still believe that him and Witten will shatter all of the NFL TEs records in their time together. Phillips is an interesting addition that may prove to be an upgrade over Curtis.
Status: Notable Upgrade.
RB/FB: Marion Barber, Felix Jones, Tashard Choice and Deon Anderson/Asaph Schwapp - Julius Jones, Marion Barber, Tyson Thompson and Deon Anderson.
If Julius and Tyson didn't had something that the new guys have it's vision, they can see all the cars in the highway and move accordingly. And for a team that suffers from hot and cold run blocking vision is a great thing to have.
Status: Massive Upgrade.
OLine: Same supposed starters; Depth: Free, McQuistan, Brewster, Holland and Procter - Free, McQuistan, Berger and Procter.
The starters are 2 years older and I would be worried if there weren't as many starters right now in the League that are still capable of playing at a great level along other teams OLines... And we're talking about right now, not about the League history (Tuinei and Newton were 34 and 33 years old in 1993). The thing is taking care of their bodies. And right now I'm more confident of the team depth, looking around the League there are many examples of OLineman that weren't worhty of anything, or much, until their 3rd and 4th years. Right now Free, McQ and Procter are entering that time frame.
Status: Status quo, same starters in a worse age situation, but with better depth.
3-4 DLine: Ratliff, Spears, Olshansky, Hatcher and Bowen/Dixon - Ratliff, Spears, Canty, Hatcher and Bowen.
Ratliff improved under Phillips coaching, Canty took a step backwards and the acquisition of Olshansky is a step in the right direction.
Status: Upgrade.
3-4 LBs: Ware, Spencer, James, Brooking, Carpenter, JWilliams, BWilliams, Butler and Hodge - Ware, Ellis, James, Ayodele, Spencer, Carpenter, Rogers and Hoyte.
Ellis will be missed, but Ware and James improved leaps under Phillips tutelage, Spencer is an improvement in coverage and run support and Brooking is an upgrade over Ayodele. And depth received a massive overhaul.
Status: Massive Upgrade.
3-4 Versatility.
In 2007 the team used the 3-4, the nickel and dime 4-2 and the Cowboy package (that looked like a 3-3 or 2-4 before the snap). In 2008 the team added the 46 scheme, but couldn't use the Cowboys package due to lack of depth or poor level of play at OLB and S. Right now the team has the personel to use all of those schemes.
Status: Upgrade.
DBs: Newman, Jenkins, Scandrick, Ball and Mickens; KHamlin, Sensabaugh, DSmith and MHamlin - Newman, Henry, Reeves, NJones, Oglesby and Ball; KHamlin, Thong Williams, Watkins and Davis.
During Parcells tenure I used to be a fan of Henry, even while every year he got injured, he was a playmaker that allowed some play, he was a MUCH better Deltha O'Neal. But he took a step back in 2007 and another in 2008. He became a liability. Just like Thong, Watkins and Davis. The DBs that will take their places have a lot to prove, but Phillips-Campo coverage schemes fit the players skill sets.
Status in Coverage: Notable Upgrade.
Status in Run Support: Possible downgrade (Henry, Williams and Davis were though as good run support guys earlier in their careers, but taking bad angles became a habit of late).
Special Teams:
They have (or they're supposed to, McBriar is expected to return to form, but he just started punting in a consistent basis after his fractured foot) the same personel at P, K and LS but the team added 12 picks this year and most are expected to play roles, including a Kick Off Specialist. And that doesn't inlcude the new STs Coach.
Status: Upgrade, but how much is still to be seen.
Coaching:
It's still early in the year, but we're seeing some different things, for starters Wade Phillips is the man on Defense and he's taking a much more hands on approach than he did in previous years, and that's a really good thing, with all the new faces this team needs coaching and Wade is one of the best DCoordinatos around. And Garrett is taking a much more demanding role and he's putting a lot of emphasis on the little things.
Status: Upgrade, Phillips is a great DC, Garrett can be a great OC and they're doing their things.
Attitude:
The other way I had a conversation with someone (can't remember who and after writing all this, I'm not looking that up) about how Roy Williams was saying that the receivers were sloppy and how they needed to continue working hard. I found that kind of comment refreshing and goes right in line with the comments of most players, they aren't concentrated in tomorrow, they're thinking about right now and what they have to do to improve. That's a change and one that's for the better.
Status: Upgrade.
I don't think that this team will have a better record than the one of 2007, but I really believe that this is a better team overall, this surely makes me impatient for a Season that won't start soon enough...
Another user-created commentary provided by a BTB reader.
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43 comments
Comments
Good read.
I’m not sure I totally agree with everything, but I think most of it is spot on. I like the optimism and hope of better days to come. Rec’d to the new Cowboys stadium.
by Big50 on Jun 12, 2009 4:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
ya lost me at the top
im all for optimism
but i remember seattle, monday night in buffalo, numerous december flameouts, countless irresponsible fumbles, stupid int.’s, admissions that winning isnt very important, etc, etc.
YA CANT HAVE A MASSIVE UPGRADE AT THE QB POSITION WHEN YA HAVE THE SAME SCHMUCK PLANNED ON TAKING 99% OF THE SNAPS….
SURE, BLASTME HERE AND GET UR HOPES UP IN OCTOBER, THEN COME CRASHING BACK TO REALITY IN DECEMBER…
THIS TEAM NEEDS A TRENT DILFER
look up -- get up -- dont ever give up
by tex806 on Jun 12, 2009 4:31 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
This team doesn't needs a Trent Dilfer
They need consistency, from the QB to the Special Teams, this team can look Pro Bowl level in an awful lot of position and in the next play they can look as awful as those 5-11 teams used to look.
One of those that overrates the QB are ya, uh?
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
by Chandus on Jun 12, 2009 6:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trent Dilfer...
SUCKS…………….. they need a leader…. Maybe Romo can be that maybe not….. but Trent Dilfer would be David Carrs bitch and i dont see anybody saying we need David Carr
by regaberto on Jun 12, 2009 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
TYPING IN ALL CAPS IS VERY ANNOYING
And no team needs a Trent Dilfer. Ever.
Epic Fail since 1985
by the red scare on Jun 13, 2009 3:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
is it a rule
that if you have “Tex” in your screen name, you gotta hate Romo?
Booyah!
by what_the_crap on Jun 13, 2009 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
NOPE ... caps engaged to stress the point
by GalTex on Jun 13, 2009 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have tex in my name.......
and I don’t hate Romo.
by texstar on Jun 13, 2009 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know...
Putting things in capital letters doesn’t make it true.
it was weird, I... I mean you probably didn't hear about it because I went under the name of Mike Honcho. But I just wanted you to know that. If you can hear me, if it got into your brain somehow. That I spread my buttcheeks as Mike Honcho.
by AirforceBat on Jun 14, 2009 11:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
IT DOESN'T?
now you tell me…
AFB, what font/case would make my post irrefutable?
:-)
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
by 5Blings on Jun 15, 2009 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe...
if you put everything in italics, it makes things seem more acceptable.
it was weird, I... I mean you probably didn't hear about it because I went under the name of Mike Honcho. But I just wanted you to know that. If you can hear me, if it got into your brain somehow. That I spread my buttcheeks as Mike Honcho.
by AirforceBat on Jun 19, 2009 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If this team had a Trent Dilfer, we'd be lucky to win 5 games..lucky.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jun 15, 2009 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
tex
is this tex fellow the same monecito tex? hmm i wonder. sure sounds like him. except for the abscence of mentioning calvados. hehe
by maxdout on Jun 12, 2009 6:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
definitely is
if not, it’s a scary world out there
by Realist Larry on Jun 12, 2009 8:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tyson Thompson
almost a great story, I sure was rooting for that kid!
by Realist Larry on Jun 12, 2009 8:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
agree except for ol
i think its tough to say after we saw the line collapse when kosier went down last year, and with flo aging another year, that we’re better or even status quo. But we’re not sigifiantly worse.
Also, our secondary has been massively upgraded since 07. Jenkins and Scandrick are a world ahead of Henry and Reevs (Eli’s favorite target in the league).
But thats irrelevant. The division is better than 07, meaning we need to be better. The GIants are playing much better on both lines. WHile I don’t think McNabb is a great qb, he was returning from injury in 07, and he clearly was not even a good qb for most of thatyear. Finally, I think the Redskins are better too. We don’t hve the afc east or nfc north which were extremely weak divisions that year) We NEED to be better than we were in 07
by foyesboys on Jun 12, 2009 9:16 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Cool stuff, Chandus.
I never thought about the way Roy E. runs routes like Keyshawn did. Hopefully that experience early in his career helped Romo get used to throwing to a big possession-type WR. Slants and jump balls could be their specialty!
"Grow where you are planted."
by Aaron Novinger on Jun 12, 2009 9:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Look at highlights of Keyshawn
And then look at highlights of Roy Williams, you’ll see a bunch of similar routes with little separation but using their body skills and hands they manage to come down with the balls.
The quick and deep outs… The curl and drag routes… Those are prime examples of plays that Dallas can use with someone like Williams and the team used plenty of those with Keyshawn.
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
by Chandus on Jun 13, 2009 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Works for me!
And I would assume that Roy has more speed than Keyshawn, especially at this point of this career.
"Grow where you are planted."
by Aaron Novinger on Jun 13, 2009 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good read
I do like the whole Keyshawn/Roy comparison. Never looked at it that way, but it certainly makes a great deal of sense. I remember loving what Keyshawn did in Big D. Made a lot of great catches, and always made it look easy.
The O-line concerns me, and the lack of depth at WR and behind Ratliff concerns me. That’s really about it. I know our receivers can play, and I know Ratliff is a monster, so as long as they stay healthy, we’re in terrific shape across the board, I think.
Epic Fail since 1985
by the red scare on Jun 13, 2009 3:08 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
So if Roy is Key.
I guess we are expecting an undrafted free agent who is usually hurt to be Terry Glenn.
This is the stuff dreams are made of.
To many undrafted free agents in key positions.
by Sharksbreath on Jun 14, 2009 11:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I count one, and 2nd/3rd WR is hardly key.
OK, 2 if you count Romo, but his performance has far exceeded initial expectations.
Speaking of dreams, isn’t Romo himself proof that it can and does happen? Kurt Warner, Delhomme, a a list of WRs too long to mention (i.e, Colston)?
Does it really matter how or where a player is acquired? What matters is their development as a player. The coaches (and other teams, i.e., Jets) sure think he has become a talented receiver.
I’d hate to give up on Austin like we did future HOF Jimmy Smith.
Res firma mitescere nescit
by Fighter15 on Jun 15, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just to be clear...
It wasn’t as cut and dry that Dallas just “gave up” on Jimmy Smith.
There were some legal issues after he almost dies from an infection.
The Eagles signed him him and cut him the year afterwards and then he finally landed in Jacksonville.
it was weird, I... I mean you probably didn't hear about it because I went under the name of Mike Honcho. But I just wanted you to know that. If you can hear me, if it got into your brain somehow. That I spread my buttcheeks as Mike Honcho.
by AirforceBat on Jun 19, 2009 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you talk as if undrafted guys can't play
The second greatest WR in the history of the franchise was undrafted….when there were 17 rounds!
So don’t give me this garbage undrafted FAs can’t play, it’s been proven by many over the years that simply is a very false statement.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jun 15, 2009 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Realists View
Nice work as usual, Chandus, but I have some differing opinions. I don’t think you’re fairly portraying these players. For the coming season, you are basing your judgement on potential. For the 2007 season, you are basing your judgement on their actual play. Typically, potential will win every time. So, here I will do a similar analysis based on pre-season potential for each squad. And keep in mind, the 2007 team lived up their potentital move than most teams do. I call this the “Realist’s View” though I’m sure many will want to call it the “Pessimist’s View.”
Quarterbacks – Romo 2009 has to be considered better than Romo entering 2007. Sure, we had high expectations for him then too, but after only 10 NFL starts, we now know he’s a quality starting QB. Now, he has experience. Ok, here is one of the best examples of hind site being 20/20 – Brad Johnson. You say here that Kitna (and even McGee – which that’s ridiculous, but I’ll assume you were going for shock value) is a “massive” upgrade over Brad Johnson. Based on what we saw from Johnson in 2008, that would appear to be a true statement. But prior to the 2007 season, that wasnt a common opinion. Matter of fact, most Cowboys fans felt very good about our back-up situation. He had just come off 11 consecutive seasons as a starter and had been 13-10 as a starter his last two seasons in Minnesota. He threw for 2750 yards in only 14 starts the previous year and two years prior he had the lowest interception rate in the league. This is a Super Bowl winning QB who was a 2 time Pro Bowler and is 16th in NFL history in completion percentage. If you thought he was garbage prior to the 2007 season, you were in a thin minority. Kitna is a guy who looks like he has some ability, but he’s never been able to win. Maybe its bad teams, or maybe its a product of throwing more TDs than interceptions in all but 2 seasons. McGee is a throw away at this point. If he plays, we are in serious trouble. Considering he takes up a roster spot, he’s probably a negative.
Status - Minor Downgrade
Running Backs – Barber had huge expectations going into 2007 and he didnt disappoint. 2008 wasnt too strong, but I’ll call it a wash from 2007 to 2009. Felix is a massive upgrade over Julius and Choice is much better than Thompson.
Status - Massive Upgrade
Wide Receivers - This one isnt even close. Somehow you forgot to mention Terry Glenn in your previous post. He was very good in 2005 and 2006, but we ended up getting nothing out of him in 2007. Still, at the same point prior to the 2007 season, he has to be considered. TO is much better than Roy Williams even taking into account the attitude and chemistry issues. Glenn, coming off consecutive 1000 yard seasons is worlds better than an unproven Austin. Crayton ’07 is Crayton ’09. The rest are pretty bad on both teams.
Status – Massive Downgrade
Tight Ends - Witten has established himself as the best TE in the game, as opposed to one of the best in the NFC. Although it turns out Fasano could play (as Miami found out) he’s never going to have the ability of Bennett. This is an upgrade.
Status – Upgrade
Offensive Line – Starters the same, but older. I will admit I feel more comfortable with Colombo than I did two years ago, but the added age of Flozell scares me. Regarding the reserves, I like Holland, but the rest of the guys dont seen to be NFL linemen. Free and Marten were better prospects than Brewster. I’ll call this a wash.
Status – Push
Defensive Line – I’m going to call this a push as well. Ratliff ‘09 over Ratliff ’07 is the only upgrade as Olshanky and Canty are a wash at best. Where I’ll downgrade this group is in depth. We just acquired Tank and expected him to be a difference maker. Also, Hatcher was entering his 2nd season where he just had 2.5 sacks in limited action as a rookie. He’s never matched that total since.
Status – Push
Linebackers – Ware has progressed just like we hoped he would and has turned himself into the best defensive player in football. He’s an upgrade over himself, no doubt. Bradie James is also a guy that is hitting his stride and is a Pro Bowl caliber player. Those are the only upgrades I see. Anthony Spencer should be better this year, but considering he hasnt done much, that wont be hard to do. He’s certainly not an upgrade over Greg Ellis, the Comeback Player of the year in 2007. Eventhough he missed some of the 2006 season, we still expected him to play well in ‘07 and he did. The other inside starter is an older, slower version of Keith Brooking. I’ll call him a wash against a very average Akin Ayodele. Regarding depth, this goes hands down to the 2007 squad. They featured Spencer, Kevin Burnett and Bobby Carpenter who was coming off his best game as a pro in the Seattle playoff game, which teased Dallas fans that maybe he “got it.” The current back-ups – JWilliams, BWilliams, Butler, and Hodge – are all guys we know nothing about. Except for one guy. Bobby Carpenter. And now we know he sucks.
Status – Slight Downgrade
Cornerbacks – Newman had never missed a game at this point in 2007 and now he can’t stay healthy. I’ll call him a slight downgrade. Henry was coming off two pretty good seasons in Dallas and was good in ‘07 with 6 picks in 13 games. How he compares to the other starter (Jenkins or Scandrick) we dont know yet. Those guys are all potential. And based on what happened to some of the guys I’ve mentioned earlier with a lot of potential and promise (Carpenter, Hatcher, etc.) I’m not sure we can rush to judgement. I do think the other one of those guys will be much better than Reeves and/or Jones from ’07.
Status – Push
Safeties – Hamlin had a Pro Bowl season in 2007, which outperformed our expectations. Last year, he came back to earth. I don’t expect much more from him than we got last year, although I hope its a little more playmaking ability. Sensabaugh should be an upgrade over Thong, but how many of us are really all that familiar with his work? I’ll call it an upgrade anyway. This year’s back-ups DeAngelo Smith and Michael Hamlin hold similar promise to Patrick Watkins (more unfulfilled potential) but two are better than one.
Status – Upgrade
Special Teams – I actually think this will be a rather large upgrade. I feel great about our kicker and punter (McBriar should be able to come back.) Felix Jones and Miles Austin returning kick offs is strong. Punt Returner is a question mark, but someone will emerge. The coverage units I think will be much, much better with all the hungry rookies trying to make an impact. And the KO specialist will help with field position. Kicking/Punting in 2007 were good but the return units and coverage units were poor. I think this one is heavily favored by the current squad.
Status – Strong Upgrade
Coaching - A Wade Phillips coached team in my book is never strongly coached. In 2007 we were coming off Bill Parcells and the team was happy to change generals. There was some excitement that the tyrant was gone. But now, I think the players rule the roost. I think they all like Wade, but I wonder if they respect him. Even if they do respect him, they know they can roll over him if needed. He’s a good person, but doesnt have the make-up of a leader of men. I think the coaching is a significant downgrade.
Status – Downgrade
Final Analysis – So, I had upgrades at Running Back (significant), Safety, Special Teams, and Tight End (minor.) And downgrades at Wide Receiver (Significant), Coaching, Quarterback (minor) and Linebacker(minor.) This was more positive than I thought it would be. I was expecting to find that the 2009 team couldnt compare to the 2007, but its pretty close. The drop in talent at WR is the only one that really bothers me, but that’s offset by some improvements at RB, S and on special teams. Someone pointed out earlier that the competition has gotten better in the NFC East as well. It think that’s why we’re in for another 9-7 season.
by TCBinNYC on Jun 15, 2009 3:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Mmmm, I guess that you missed my first paragraph...
A lot’s been said and written about the team improving or else from the past year to this year, but what about 2007? Our team finished 13-3 and I don’t think that they’re less talented now, so, let’s review the supposed starters and the depth and let’s compare it to the 2007 team:
I’m not making a comparison between the potential of both teams going into the season, I was comparing the actual results of 2007 and what this team seems to be capable of doing.
Potential, yeah, but that’s still a measurable, a really important measurable, Drafts are made with that measurable in mind. But is one for which we will have to wait and see.
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
by Chandus on Jun 15, 2009 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know you're just Tex-Mex
but I sure love your style. (sorry, just watched Gran Torino…was going to go a little less PC, but thought better of it).
Hope all is well.
Res firma mitescere nescit
by Fighter15 on Jun 16, 2009 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand your analysis, Chandus
I was just changing the assumptions a little bit because it seems to me that when we judge someone on potential its human nature to put their potnetial very high. For instance, when it comes to thinking about the upcoming season, we all have high hopes for Austin, Felix, Roy Wi11iams, Sensabaugh, etc. But a lot of these guys havent proven themselves yet. So, all we have is potential. When we compare what Austin could become to what Crayton was in 2007, we tend to elevate Austin, because he has a very high ceiling. Also, when you look at potential, you never really count on things like injury which will hit every team and therefore also inflates the perception of the team that hasnt played their season yet. That’s why I thought you might get a more accurate view by taking the potential of the teams at the same point in time, knowing that the 2007 Cowboys were 13-3. It’s just another way of looking at things.
by TCBinNYC on Jun 16, 2009 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
True, but...
Going into 2007 our team didn’t knew what they had on Spencer as he was a rookie and Carpenter was kind of an unknown too…
And still, you’re saying that from 2007 to this year the team suffered a downgrade… Why, because Spencer and Carpenter, right along with Burnett were such great backups? 2 Unknowns and another guy that couldn’t replace a very average, below average, Ayodele…
We have a difference of opinion, that’s obvious.
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
by Chandus on Jun 16, 2009 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Regarding the Linebackers
Ware ‘07 vs Ware ’09 – Sizeable advantage ’09. Ware was a stud in ’07, but he’s the best defensive player in the NFL right now.
Ellis ‘07 vs Spencer ’09 – Sizeable advantage to Ellis. He was a beast that year. 12.5 sacks in 13 games, Pro Bowler, and Comeback Player of the Year. Even the highest of expectations for Spencer shouldnt produce those results.
James ’07 vs James ’09 – Slight advantage to James ’09. Last year was his best season for sure, but he was good in 2007 too.
Ayodele ’07 vs Brooking ’09 – Here is where I think we differ. I dont see this as an upgrade because Brooking ’09 is not the player he was in ’07 or ’06 or ’05. He’s gotten progressively worse and I question how much he has left in the tank. I wasnt crazy about Ayodele, but I see this as a push at best. Earlier I had it as advantage Ayodele, but maybe I’m being too hard on Brooking. We’ll see. I’ll call it a push.
The ’07 reserves (Spencer, Burnett, Carpenter) are much better than the ’09 reserves (Carpenter and a bunch of mid-to-late round rookies.) I give this a significant advantage to the ’07 crowd.
Overall I think the ‘09 upgrade of Ware over ’07 Ware is offset by the downgrade of Ellis to Spencer. I also think the slight upgrade of ’09 James over ’07 James is offset by the minor downgrade of Ayodele to Brooking. The minor advantage I perceive for the ’07 bunch is in the reserves which (at this point without the rookies playing) has to be an advantage to the ’07 squad. Even if I adjust my poor grading of Brooking, it bring this to a push. I don’t see where the ‘09 LBs could be perceived as an upgrade to the ’07 guys. I don’t think you are giving Ellis’s ’07 season enough credit.
by TCBinNYC on Jun 16, 2009 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some thoughts on your points:
Ellis ‘07 vs Spencer ’09 – Sizeable advantage to Ellis. He was a beast that year. 12.5 sacks in 13 games, Pro Bowler, and Comeback Player of the Year. Even the highest of expectations for Spencer shouldnt produce those results.
Entering 2007, who would have thought that Ellis would have the best year of his career? Meanwhile, you’re discrediting guys because you don’t know what they’re capable of doing… We didn’t knew what Ellis was capable of doing, he injured his achilles the previous year!
I actually believe that the team won’t find that replacing Ellis pass pressure production will be easy, but with their young wheels they might be able to play better against the run and pass, and I already know that Spencer is better.
Ayodele ’07 vs Brooking ’09 – Here is where I think we differ
I look at this comparison this way: Zach Thomas was an upgrade over Ayodele, therefor Brooking will be an upgrade over Ayodele. Look at the acquisition of Thomas last year, look at what was said, how Thomas was finished, didn’t had range and became fragile… Thomas finished close to 100 tackles, had 3 PDs and 1 Sack, playing in a scheme in which he didn’t fit very well…
Brooking is a better fit, has experience playing ILB under Wade and faced pretty much the same comments after his last season in Atlanta.
Why is he a downgrade? It’s beyond me…
The ’07 reserves (Spencer, Burnett, Carpenter) are much better than the ’09 reserves (Carpenter and a bunch of mid-to-late round rookies.) I give this a significant advantage to the ’07 crowd.
Spencer a rookie, a first round rookie, yeah, but still a rookie. Burnett, JAG and this isn’t arguable, look at the amount of interest that he received in FA and the contract that he was given, he’s JAG. The depth that they provided can’t be replaced by this guys: JWilliams, Butler, BWilliams and Hodge? Maybe, but it isn’t as if they have to do too much to replace the production of the 2007 backups… The way in which you talk about the depth in 2007 makes me think about how those guys started many games in place of the starters and the D didn’t missed a beat… But they didn’t.
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
by Chandus on Jun 16, 2009 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you’re discrediting guys because you don’t know what they’re capable of doing
Yeah, of course. Why would I assume Spencer is capable of almost a sack a game (what Ellis did) at this point? He’s never come close to that kind of production, and its not like he hasnt played. I’m not saying the guy doesnt have ability or potential, because obviously he does. But you cant say Spencer is at that level until he is …. at that level.
I look at this comparison this way: Zach Thomas was an upgrade over Ayodele, therefor Brooking will be an upgrade over Ayodele.
Sorry, but I’m not following that logic. You are saying that just because we chose to sign Brooking over Thomas, that makes Brooking the better player? That’s not necessarily true. It might mean that the team believes he is better, but not that he is. Hey, I hope Brooking is lights out this year. Its just that everything I read about the guy from the Atlanta papers and from fans, they all said he was done and they were happy to get rid of him. And this is a guy who is loved in Atlanta. He grew up in Georgia a Falcons fan, went to school at Georgia Tech and was a Pro Bowler in Atlanta when they had nothing else. They hated to see him go, but said he was so bad he hurt the team. This doesnt sound like someone I’m excited to add to my team.
Now that I’ve told you what I’m basing my judgement on, please tell me what you’re basing yours on. Is it that the team said he was good? (He used to be.) Is it because he’s a 5 time Pro Bowler and has played well under Wade before? (All valid points, but just because he did it earlier in his career, doesnt mean he still has it.) Is it because he is a better fit in the scheme than Thomas? (I will agree with this assessment, but if he’s lost a step, can we expect great results?)
Spencer a rookie, a first round rookie, yeah, but still a rookie. Burnett, JAG and this isn’t arguable, look at the amount of interest that he received in FA and the contract that he was given, he’s JAG. The depth that they provided can’t be replaced by this guys: JWilliams, Butler, BWilliams and Hodge? Maybe, but it isn’t as if they have to do too much to replace the production of the 2007 backups… The way in which you talk about the depth in 2007 makes me think about how those guys started many games in place of the starters and the D didn’t missed a beat… But they didn’t.
So, let me get this straight. You downplay Spencer here, but you talk like he’s all-world this year. You say he’s a rookie (first round rookie) and that means very little, but later you say the mid-and-late round rookies in 2009 should perform well? You can’t have it both ways.
Burnett might be JAG, but he was the best coverage linebacker we had. No question about it, when he signed elsewhere, we lost that ability. Now, hopefully, Jason Williams can fill that role. Again, I hope all these rookies turn out to be players, but its not likely. Its possible one or more dont even make the team. Its not like these guys were highly touted. Jason Williams was the 75th overall pick, and most people called that a reach. Butler and Brandon Williams were over 100 picks into the draft and Hodge was almost 200 picks into the draft. Studies show, these guys dont make an impact in the NFL too often. On the other hand, Spencer was a first round pick and the top player at his position the year he was drafted.
I appreciate your enthusiasm and positive attitude about this year’s team. But I think your letting your feelings for the team cloud your judgement.
by TCBinNYC on Jun 17, 2009 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
1. Ellis came back from an achilles injury in 2006 and had the best season in his career in 2007, true. But nobody knew of what he was going to be capable of doing entering 2007. We knew his previous history, but considering history very few players ever com back from the dreaded achilles. So we didn’t knew what we would get from Ellis in 2007. Just as we don’t know what we’re going to get from this year players, but I’ve seen Spencer play and I can see him playing well.
2. Who’s saying that Brooking will be an upgrade over Thomas? I’m only saying that he will be an upgrade over Ayodele, just like a Miami washed out ILB was an upgrade. And furthermore, who’s saying that Brooking is finished? Falcon fans? Oh, alright, they also whacked a LB that has the trust of the Giants, Boley, and that guy looked even worse in his last year in Georgia. Maybe, just maybe, there was something wrong with coaching over there…
You can look it up, the comments on Zach Thomas when he was hired, those that talked about how his career was over, how he didn’t had any range left, how he was fragile and how much of a joke the signing was… The same is said about Brooking? Hell, I hope that it works as well.
3. You’re talking about rookies as if they can’t play, that’s why I was surprized to see you talking about how much great depth a rookie provided in 2007…
And about the other comments, I’ll only say that I’m a fan of this Draft and I don’t think that I’m letting anything cloud my judgement, it’s just that my glass isn’t half empty.
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
by Chandus on Jun 17, 2009 7:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ellis came back from an achilles injury in 2006 and had the best season in his career in 2007, true. But nobody knew of what he was going to be capable of doing entering 2007. We knew his previous history, but considering history very few players ever com back from the dreaded achilles. So we didn’t knew what we would get from Ellis in 2007.
You said earlier you were basing this analysis on what happned in 2007 and what you believe will happen in 2009. But now you’re going back to my proposed view of potential going into each season. You cant have it both ways. Ellis performed lights out 2007. We can’t expect Spencer to be at that level just yet. So, clearly, its a downgrade at SAM ’backer.
I’ve seen Spencer play and I can see him playing well.
Agreed. Just not at the Pro Bowl level Ellis did in 2007.
Who’s saying that Brooking is finished? Falcon fans? Oh, alright, they also whacked a LB that has the trust of the Giants, Boley, and that guy looked even worse in his last year in Georgia. Maybe, just maybe, there was something wrong with coaching over there…
Maybe. I don’t know why you would discount the opinion of the Atlanta media and fans. They’ve watched this guy every game for his entire career and felt he had lost it. Whose opinion would you rather take? They seem to me to be the best judge of his ability, especially compared to his previous play. I would relate this to current Cowboys fans and our feelings regarding Roy Thong Williams.
You’re talking about rookies as if they can’t play, that’s why I was surprized to see you talking about how much great depth a rookie provided in 2007…
I see your point. But what I’m saying here is that a first round rookie who is the highest rated player at his position has a much higher success rate than guys picked in the 3rd, 4th and 6th rounds. Much, much higher in fact.
by TCBinNYC on Jun 18, 2009 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Roy Thong...
The team hired a familiar face that coached him in his rookie coach, he didn’t improve. Changed the way in which he was used, didn’t improve. And actually, he got worse, his tackling skills continued a downward spiral and we’re talking about a run support guy…
And you’re comparing him to Brooking… Wow… Had the idea that you had something personal with him, but this…
I know that we disagree, let’s leave things like this, ok?
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
by Chandus on Jun 18, 2009 6:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just to be clear ...
I never meant to compare the skills of Brooking to Thong. My point was to relate the feelings of the fans who have watched these players their entire career. Most of us Cowboy fans feel that Thong has lost a step, his ability (if he ever had one) to cover, and even tackling ability. The Atlanta media and fans have said many similar things about Brooking. My point was this: Why would we discount their impression of Brooking’s game? We feel we know best about Thong. So why wouldnt we take into account the thoughts of the Atlanta fans on Brooking?
by TCBinNYC on Jun 19, 2009 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because, things aren't the same...
Was Brooking still capable of playing MLB in a 4-3 scheme, in a very limited basis? Yes. At times he looked ugly? Yes. At times he looked good? Yes, he’s still capable of doing things at or behind the LOS.
What is he supposed to do in Dallas? Look at Zach Thomas last year and you have your answer. Gap control, run support and some blitzing. Coverage? Very little.
The thing with the Falcons that made me scratch my head last year: Boley got benched for playing real bad, the Giants sign him to a long term deal and they love the guy. Brooking had growing pains due to his limited range, he was a MLB and in that scheme he’s supposed to have range, and his team left him there to be burned. That doesn’t speak highly of the falcons defensive staff.
And I like the chances of both players playing well in 2009.
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
by Chandus on Jun 19, 2009 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on injuries on the WR and the O-line
If they can stay healthly well, this team will be better. Something tells me they won’t…
Not being the downer, just look at the WR’s injury list right now and last year.
Also, look at the O-line’s age..
Holding my breath all season..
by torchindefenses on Jun 27, 2009 9:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

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