The Real #1 Receiver in Dallas.
by Luke. on Jun 23, 2009 9:48 AM CDT
123 comments
There's been a lot of apprehension in the press and right here on bloggingtheboys about the Cowboys WR's and whether or not Roy Williams can be a #1 WR for Dallas. I think many people can't see the forest for the trees. Dallas has a #1 receiver; Jason Witten.
Since Tony Romo entered the 07 season as starter Jason Witten has...
More catches and yards than Anquan Boldin, Santana Moss, Marques Colston, Hines Ward, Lee Evans and Chad Johnson.
More catches than Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Braylon Edwards, Roddy White, Greg Jennings, Randy Moss and Terrell Owens :)
More yards than T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Laveranues Coles, and Dwayne Bowe, more Td's than Derrick Mason, S. Moss and Evans, higher yards per reception than T.J., Mason, Tony Gonzalez and Ward and more 20+ yard receptions than Boldin, T.J, Mason, Gonzalez and Ward.
All of those guys are pretty well known names. Of course the point I'm making is that in the panic about our WR's and the “can Williams be a #1 guy” debate our All-Pro Tight End seems to get overlooked. Jason Witten is a #1 receiver in this league and the #1 receiver on this team.
2007 Jason Witten – 96 for 1145 and 7 TD's. Ranked against the rest of the league's WR's and TE's that year he was 10th overall in receptions, 14th overall in yards and 20th overall in TD's. Out of the nine receivers who caught more passes than him 4 had a lower yards per catch average than Witten. He also had 14 receptions over 20 yards, 2 of which went over 40 yards.
In 2008 Witten battled multiple injuries and endured an inept backup QB for 3 games yet still had good numbers. 2008 Jason Witten – 81 for 952 and 4 TD's. Avg 11.8, 20+ 14, 40+ 1.
There's no reason at all to think that a healthy Romo and Witten won't put up similar numbers to the 2007 season. And for those TO disciples; a 22 year old Jason Witten had 87 catches for 980 yards and 6 Td's in 2004 with Vinny Testarverde and Keyshawn Johnson (Terry Glenn only played in 6 games) as his support. He doesn't need TO to continue to thrive.
Witten is only the third TE in NFL history to have a 96+ catch season. He's also the NFL record holder, tied with Hall of Famer Kellon Winslow Sr., for the most receptions by a TE in a single game with 15.
This is a serious future Hall of Fame player we have here. Without injury he will be the #1 receiver in Dallas' offense once again. And rightly so, he's outstanding.
Part 2; what about Roy Williams?
Williams will still get plenty of opportunities to make plays but he won't lead this team in receptions (he might not even lead it in yards). Williams is more Keyshawn than TO (although he's faster than what Keyshawn was when he was here) so let's look at that afore mentioned 2004 season with Witten's big year and check Keyshawn's stats for that year; 70 catches for 981 yards (14.0 avg) and 6 Td's. This could be the sort of season we see from Roy and I think that will be good enough.
With the solid Crayton around and the potential of the young Austin, Bennett and Felix Jones trio grabbing a bunch more passes than last year, Williams doesn't need to have a 90 catch, 1300 yard season for this offense to work.
I also think a season like Keyshawn's 04 is very achievable for Roy Williams.
Here's some combined stats from WR's from the 07 and 08 seasons. Mixed in will be Roy Williams stats from the 06 and 07 seasons (giving him a reprieve for last years disaster for the moment).
A – 160 for 1891 and 20 Td's, Avg 11.8, 20+ 24, 40+ 4.
B – 140 for 1852 and 9 Td's, Avg 13.2, 20+ 26, 40+ 6.
C – 145 for 1962 and 16 Td's, Avg 13.5, 20+ 26, 40+ 5.
D – 152 for 1775 and 14 Td's, Avg 11.6, 20+ 22, 40+ 2.
E – 165 for 2423 and 13 Td's, Avg 14.6, 20+ 31, 40+ 10.
F – 118 for 1866 and 8 Td's, Avg 15.8, 20+ 25, 40+ 7.
G – 146 for 1980 and 12 Td's, Avg 13.5, 20+ 30, 40+ 4.
H – 135 for 2162 and 19 Td's, Avg 16.0, 20+ 36, 40+ 8.
I – 146 for 2148 and 12 Td's, Avg 14.7, 20+ 35, 40+ 7.
Some similar type numbers there from 9 different WR's. Some are more possession and others are more down field but they're mostly fairly comparable all around.
So who's who?
A - Anquan Boldin
B – Santana Moss
C – Marques Colston
D – Hines Ward
E – Steve Smith
F – Lee Evans
G – Chad Johnson
H – Braylon Edwards
I – Roy Williams
Williams holds his own against all those guys. And averaging his two seasons (73 for 1074 and 6 Td's) gives us numbers very similar to the Keyshawn 2004 season stated earlier.
What was most exciting about those stats for me was the fact that Roy Williams had very respectable deep ball numbers (the 20+ & 40+ category) when compared to noted speedsters like Santana Moss, Steve Smith and Lee Evans. If Williams can continue to get deep like that this offense Dallas will score plenty.
I think this is the level that we are on with regards to Roy Williams. He's not Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson or Randy Moss. Or even Terrell Owens in his prime. But he is a capable WR and has shown he can put up numbers amongst most other good to very good WR's in the league. As a #2 target (or a 1b if you like) in a successful rushing team (hopefully) with a very good QB he can be an impact player on offense.
Going into the season with Jason Witten and Roy Williams as your top 2 targets in the passing game is not a reason for concern, it's a reason for optimism.
Another user-created commentary provided by a BTB reader.
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Wow Luke...
Excellent write-up!
Hooah.
by .FRoST.USAF on Jun 23, 2009 10:12 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
good stuff....
"Let me tell you sumthin' son ! an ass whippin' hurts no matter what kinda shape your in ! " Stone Cold Steve Austin
by jerryw on Jun 23, 2009 10:21 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I couldn't agree more.
While I don’t think Jason Witten is overlooked by any means, It is rather hard to consider a tight end as a number one receiver but you pretty much proved your point, they can be and Jason Witten is one. What I want to see improved in training camps then is the pass protection from our running backs. We already know MBIII will put his whole body in the way for blocks and can pick up blitz’s but we gotta make sure that Jones and Choice can do the job also, especially if they are to see a generously shared portion of playing time.
by Masada on Jun 23, 2009 10:35 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Well done
Consider also that last season, we had one player on our team who led the NFL in % of passes caught vs. passes thrown his way. And that was none other than ‘Mr. Sticky Fingers’ Marion Barber, who turned 52 of 61 balls thrown his way into a reception for a league leading 85.2 reception rate.
I agree that Romo will be spoilt for choice on potential receiving targets. Let’s just hope Garret can devise a playbook that utilizes these multiple threats effectively.
Oh, and T.O.? 140 passes ‘forced’ his way, resulting in a miserly 69 catches for a 49% reception rate. No other leading WR last year was so inefficient.
by One.Cool.Customer on Jun 23, 2009 10:38 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yep
Bringing up barber is a good point – we forget how reliable he is as a wr, Romo always seems to look his and wittens way when hes in trouble and those guys are always open.
If Roy can be keyshawn, Crayton can be the same solid consistent receiver hes been for a while and Austin can stay healthy and consistently make plays (he seems to have a good rapport with Romo), there will be more than enough options for Romo to throw to. We won’t need FItzgerals/Steve SMith/TO in 2007 type numbers from Roy to have a good or great offense.
by foyesboys on Jun 23, 2009 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They used passes to the backs really, really well in the second game
against the Giants, when the Giants were coming with everything on every down and Proctor was a revolving door. I thought to myself then “Why exactly don’t they do this more? They have backs with good hands, excellent open field skills and it slows the blitzing LBs down a count”.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on Jun 23, 2009 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
CoolCustomer,
Really good info. Were did you get it?
The efficiency of Marion Barber, I believe, is a not just a testament to his skills but also the way Defenses have been playing us since Tony Romo burst on the scene. Romo and Garrett are so aggressive down field that I think teams often neglect our RB’s out of the back field.
I really think that Romo needs to utilize his backs more until the defense adjusts and frees up more space down the field for Witten and Roy and then go back to them and then back to the backs etc. Keep the defense guessing and mix it up. Linebackers and Safteies really struggle to cover our TE’s and our RB’s and we should use these guys repeatedly to free up our WR’s down the field.
by Luke. on Jun 23, 2009 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Source for passes caught/target
Luke, here’s the link: http://sports.iwon.com/nfl/stats/percentpassescaughtbytarget.html
The site also contains many other stats that I have had trouble finding anywhere else, and I will be doing more digging on it in the ‘dead time’ before training camp starts.
by One.Cool.Customer on Jun 24, 2009 3:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've always said Witten was our #1 receiver
The reason being is that he gets open constantly and Romo has more trust and faith in him being where is supposed to be than any other receiver on the team.
I see Witten catching over 90 balls this season and getting close to 10 TDs. If RW, Crayton, Austin, Hurd, Jones, Barber and Bennett can catch close to 20 TDs combined, our passing offense will be just fine.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jun 23, 2009 10:41 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
He is a number 1 option, not number 1 receiver. He is a TE. Dont lump him with the the prima donna WRs.
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the goverment from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
by squidlo97 on Jun 23, 2009 11:27 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It's is an insult to Witten...he's MUCH better.
I would agree that RW is our #1 WR…and he’ll be a much better possession option that t.o. ever was.
Further, with Bennett and the 2 TE formation, what are you going to do? Load the LOS? OK, I’ll take RW one-on-one, Witten on a LB, and Bennett running free on the safeties.
How ’bout playing nickel? May I introduce Messers Smash, Dash, and Tash.
It's not personal, it's just business
by Fighter15 on Jun 23, 2009 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will take it one step farther,
Jones may be a Westbrook like player. Screens, circle passes, and draws will be a nightmare for other teams. This team is so well suited to play a defense like the giants its amazing.
Rush and face the posibilty of Bennett, or Jones on a linebacker or saftey, dont rush and watch Romo sit in the pocket and pick his receiver.
by Musiccitynorm on Jun 23, 2009 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a great comparison
Jones could be very much like Westbrook, only without having to be relied upon to carry the whole offense.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on Jun 23, 2009 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
-100000000000000000
No.
R.I.P, Air McNair
by number5 on Jul 6, 2009 2:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i remember in 07, the second game against the Giants, Cowboys last drive of the game Romo found a streaking Witten to set up the winning field goal, if Romo had thrown it to TO, it probably would of been a touchdown but Romo choose Witten because he was more reliable, knowing Witten probably wont score if he caught the ball.
by LiLGiT on Jun 23, 2009 12:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
that was the 2006 season
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jun 23, 2009 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I always ask myself
How does a team lose track of a guy that big???
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on Jun 23, 2009 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
On purpose?
Ask Mike Jenkins, I bet he could tell how to do it?
by Musiccitynorm on Jun 23, 2009 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
V ery nice I agree Mike Jenkins better not start I want Scandrick
by rioplayer7 on Jun 23, 2009 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just want whoever plays better in Training Camp
I
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on Jun 24, 2009 12:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice piece Luke
The team is lucky to have a tight end who is not just a safety valve, but also a first-look, semi-downfield threat. That 42 yard over the shoulder catch against Philadelphia in week 2 of 2008 just before the half was a thing of absolute beauty.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80adc197/Jason-Witten-Highlight-WK-02-vs-Eagles-2008
Oh yeah, later in the same game he caught a 32-yard pass to set up the game-winning TD. And he had hurt his shoulder earlier that night as well…
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80adc216/Tony-Romo-Highlight-WK-02-vs-Eagles-2008
In fact, Witten has caught many bombs over the years.
There was the 42 yard TD from Testaverde against the packers in 2004:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d801886bf/Packers-41-Cowboys-20
A streaking 26-yard TD from Bledsoe against the Chiefs in 2005:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d8007f00a/Cowboys-31-Chiefs-28
The clutch 42-yarder against the Giants at the Meadowlands to set up the game-winning FG:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d801ccbef/Jason-Witten-Highlight-WK-13-vs-Giants-2006
We all remember his famous 53 yard catch and run without a helmet against the Eagles in 2007, but do you remember that he had another 53 yard catch and run against Philly in their second meeting that season?:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d8052f228/Jason-Witten-Highlight-WK-15-vs-Eagles-2007
How ’bout this 38-yard reception against the Giants in 2007:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80244cc0/Tony-Romo-Highlight-WK-1-vs-Giants-2007
And this 35 yard BEAUTY against the Ravens last year. Watch him hobble off the field afterwards:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80d7dd9f/Jason-Witten-Highlight-WK-16-vs-Ravens-2008
Which he followed up with a gorgeous 21-yard TD, in which he got banged up again…
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80d7de7a/Jason-Witten-Highlight-WK-16-vs-Ravens-2008
Yeah…Witten is just incredible. Best tight end in the league.
by DavidH22 on Jun 23, 2009 1:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice work David.
And some great examples of Witten being much more than just a good TE.
by Luke. on Jun 23, 2009 5:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank You
FINALLY…an article about the Dallas Passing game that makes any sense based on reality.
by tb0n3 on Jun 23, 2009 2:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
nice write up luke
witten… wow… great great player
by CowboysFan4Life on Jun 23, 2009 4:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the compliments guys.
Glad to see there’s others who realize what we really have in Witten.
by Luke. on Jun 23, 2009 5:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Since his rookie year I've said Witten is the key to this offense.
And I maintained that even after Owens was brought in and Romo was promoted. He’s the best player on the team.
by krl97a on Jun 23, 2009 7:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Witten is no doubt the #1 receiving option
But you’ve gotta have a legit #1 on the perimeter to make it all click.
WELCOME HOME SEVEN!!
by Carl Shelton (GloryDayz88) on Jun 23, 2009 7:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Spoken like a WR.
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the goverment from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
by squidlo97 on Jun 23, 2009 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the evidence disagrees.
I’m not exactly sure what you mean with the "make it click" comment but plenty of offenses have thrived without huge production from WR’s. Having a superstar #1 isn’t that important to a teams success. It can be handy to have but you don’t need to have it.
by Luke. on Jun 23, 2009 8:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Kansas City Chief offense of 2002-2005
was one of the best offenses in modern NFL history. Yet they never had a “legit” #1 WR that made it all click. They did have Tony Gonzalez, who I would consider probably the only tight end who might be better than Witten (receiving-wise). And of course Priest Holmes/Larry Johnson, but their passing game was always potent, even without a standout on the perimeter.
by DavidH22 on Jun 23, 2009 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly David,
I was writing some stuff down about that exact team (along with a few other examples). It was supposed to be a quick response to the idea that Carl raised but it’s grown rather big so I might Fanpost it too :)
But you’re right, you can have a potent offense without a superstar #1 WR.
by Luke. on Jun 23, 2009 9:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget...
New England during their 3 of 4 run.
Philthy for the past decade (5 NFC title games).
Pittsburgh (and if you say Hines Ward you’re crazy).
New Orleans (2nd in total offense)
etc, etc, etc.
It's not personal, it's just business
by Fighter15 on Jun 24, 2009 3:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why the disrespect for Ward?
He’s been consistently good for years.
All of those teams that you mentioned were not led in yardage or catches by a TE.
For those 4 years for the Chiefs, Gonzalez led them in catches twice and yards twice, and only once did he lead in both for the same year. And, as noted they were not a championship caliber team.
The last team that won the Super Bowl with a tight end as their primary receiving option was the 2000 Ravens, who had one of the best defenses of all times, and their offense was putrid.
by Baked Potato Soup on Jun 24, 2009 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about all the teams with the RB as the leading receiver?
Way too many to list.
It's not personal, it's just business
by Fighter15 on Jun 26, 2009 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree, SD is proof of that
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jun 24, 2009 8:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that was fair to say before.
But I think Vincent Jackson is FINALLY starting to put it together and is becoming one heck of a receiver.
by Mandmeisterx on Jun 24, 2009 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't classify him as a #1 yet
and their passing game still runs through Gates.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jun 24, 2009 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
60 704 11.7 34 8 Gates
59 1,098 18.6 60 7 Jackson
TO last year (who I doubt most people would deny as a true #1)
69 1,052 15.2 75T 10
Seems like a pretty legit receiver to me.
by Mandmeisterx on Jun 24, 2009 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't say he wassn't a good receiver
I just don’t think he’s a legit #1. To me, guys like Fitzgerald, Johnson, S. Steve and Wayne are true #1 WRs because teams gameplan for them, not sure if teams gameplan for Jackson yet.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jun 24, 2009 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why wouldn't you game plan for the guy?
Didn’t Raf just mention the other day that Vincent Jackson was the #1 receiver last year as far as being a downfield threat? The guy’s also 6-5, 230. He seems like a scary dude to me. I think he really turned it on in the second half of last year, especially after the Falcons loss. If he carries that over to this year, look out.
by Mandmeisterx on Jun 24, 2009 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he has potential for sure
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jun 24, 2009 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and Roy Williams
is more of a prototypical #1 receiver than Eddie Kennison or Johnnie Mortion of the Chiefs ever were, in my opinion.
Of course, the Chiefs made it to the playoffs just once during that four-year span of offensive dominance, and did not win a playoff game. Mostly because of their wretched defense, but still…yikes.
by DavidH22 on Jun 23, 2009 10:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
great write-up
The sky is not falling.
Felix will will give Witten more opportunities by opening the middle of the field on passing downs.
Romo is going to have a monster year with his weapons.
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.
-Winston Churchill
by HudBaby on Jun 23, 2009 10:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree
used smartly, there are more weapons avaiable on offsense than anyone can effectively stop. Bennett is another player who is going to create problems for teams. Like Felix, his resence on the fieldcan either mean run or pass and base packages will have trouble covering both.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on Jun 24, 2009 5:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who was the last team
to win a Superbowl when the TE was the best receiver.
Good Luck with that.
Somehow you did not figure in T.O. being on the field which opened everything up for Witten. I see Witten’s number decreasing a lot this year. He’s going to get a lot of attention.
I have the funny feeling this year we are going to see a lot of 8 man fronts with teams daring Roy Williams to beat them.
by Sharksbreath on Jun 24, 2009 7:04 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
what?
Somehow you did not figure in T.O. being on the field which opened everything up for Witten
Did you not see this?
And for those TO disciples; a 22 year old Jason Witten had 87 catches for 980 yards and 6 Td’s in 2004 with Vinny Testarverde and Keyshawn Johnson (Terry Glenn only played in 6 games) as his support. He doesn’t need TO to continue to thrive.
Witten performing is not going to be a problem.
by aussie_cowboy on Jun 24, 2009 7:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Aussie Cowboy,
The TO brigade only see what they want.
Where about in Australia are you? I’m in Brisbane.
by Luke. on Jun 24, 2009 7:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Witten was even a good tight end
with Quincy Carter throwing to him, and Drew Bledsoe, with T.O. nowhere around.
Baltimore in 1970 won the Super Bowl when their best receiver was John Mackey, a Hall of Fame tight end. Oakland won in 1976 when their leading receiver was Dave Caspar, a Hall of Fame tight end. Baltimore won in 2000 with their Hall of Fame tight end Shannon Sharoe leading their team in receptions, as did Denver in 97 and 98. And the leading TD receiver for the 1996 Packers was tight end Keith Jackson.
Tunabreath, I’ll definitely take my chances with eight man fronts!
by DavidH22 on Jun 24, 2009 8:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I pray the Cowboys see 8 man fronts
as Romo will slice those defenses apart.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jun 24, 2009 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So only 5 times out of 40+
And 3 times it was the same guy. To me that only further highlights the need to not have a TE as your top receiver, since it so rarely leads to a championship. The only time it’s been done in the past 30 years has all been by the same guy.
by Baked Potato Soup on Jun 24, 2009 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But think about it this way
Just as the tandem RB and multiple WR sets, as well as the “hybrid” SS has taken over football, the tight end who separate and catch well enough to challenge that paradigm may be where we are now. Witten can certainly have the same impact as a WR plus the added element of surprise since his impact is also high in the running game. Just a thought.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on Jun 24, 2009 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Witten is awesome.
But I don’t think he is redefining the position or creating significant enough match up problems that teams are creating new schemes to stop him. They pretty much just play him like they do other tight ends, sometimes to better effect than others. Keep in mind that everyone said TO was falling apart or whatever because he only had 2 games with 100+ yards, but that’s all that Witten had also.
by Baked Potato Soup on Jun 24, 2009 11:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't mean Witten alone is redefining the position
but I think the combined effect of Gates, Gonzales, Witten, etc. may be. Teams have to game plan for those guys and not just play them “straight up”. By that I mean, they have to dedicate corners or safeties to them in most cases and then that guy is susceptible to being out-muscled at the line and going up for the ball. Witten absolutely toasts LBs, as do the others on the list. I think that changes a lot. I’d have to watch coaches tape to see how teams play Witten vs a JAG TE, but I’m betting it’s not the same.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on Jun 25, 2009 7:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Parcells' Giants teams
Bavaro was their best receiver
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
by Seanrude on Jun 24, 2009 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
if your defense is good enough
your offense doesn’t need to be explosive to win SBs, there are a lot of teams are proof of that and the GMen are one of them.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jun 25, 2009 8:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is not going to be like when T.O. was out in 2007
and their starting wideouts were Crayton and Hurd, and their second tight end was Fasano, and a gimpy Terry Glenn was trying to come back. Yes the offense struggled then, and yes opposing defenses used 8-man fronts to confound the Cowboys. But this year’s version is way better – Roy Williams as #1, Austin as #2, Crayton as #2/#3, and the addition of Bennett and Felix…I mean damn!
by DavidH22 on Jun 24, 2009 10:33 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm not so sure of the premise here
If I am an opposing DC, I am going to rub Witten with a LB on every play and have a safety run with him.
I’m also going to have 8 in the box and force Garrett/Romo to throw balls over the top to the outside against a myriad of middle blitzes. In other words, I’m going to test the qulaity of the WR’s and their level of sync with Romo.
Unless Dallas can consistently connect on middle and longer range balls against single coverage outside, I will keep bringing the heat and limiting any big plays in the run game.
Whether Witten catches 60, 70, 80, or 90 balls won’t likely be the game changer. Dallas will find itself in a lot of 3rd and long situations with a suspect left side of the o-line.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
by 5Blings on Jun 24, 2009 11:06 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
got news for you bling
RW, Austin, Crayton and Hurd can all beat single coverage like a drum, so again, I pray opposing DCs do what you’re saying.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jun 24, 2009 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
when have Austin or Hurd beaten single coverage like a drum?
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
by Seanrude on Jun 24, 2009 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude
Both games they were healthy!
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on Jun 24, 2009 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You mean the two in preseason?
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
by 5Blings on Jun 24, 2009 6:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you miss the GB game?
Austin whipped the CB on him twice for huge plays. (Don’t remember who was playing him)
If that kid stays healthy, I think he’s capable of beating a majority of CB’s he’ll face one on one. (Assuming the opponent lines up their #1 CB on Roy a majority of the time)
Training Camp '09 = Mega Thunder Dome....80 men enter, 53 men leave.
by APerfectStar on Jun 25, 2009 4:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I read you right, you're suggesting...
on the strength of two plays, that he is able to do it consistently?
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
by 5Blings on Jun 25, 2009 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
if given more opportunities, absolutely
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jun 25, 2009 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now I know why the LSAT was so difficult for you
It’s all about facts in evidence and the resulting extensible logic.
One day, hopefully we can throw back some beers and discuss this more in depth.
But it wont be in PA.
:-)
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
by 5Blings on Jun 25, 2009 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You sort of read me right 5Blings
Austin should be able to defeat most #2 and lower CB’s in a one on one stituation. But the GB game was just an example, not the entire basis of my prediction. If you watched his progression from ST guy, to where he was during a 3 or 4 game stretch last season, I really see him taking the next step, consistency.
Training Camp '09 = Mega Thunder Dome....80 men enter, 53 men leave.
by APerfectStar on Jun 25, 2009 7:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
One was
an open scrimmage, but I guess that’s pre-season in manner of speaking.
I actually think Austin will have a good season if he can stay healthy. They were loving him last off-season.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on Jun 24, 2009 7:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
watch the games and you'll see
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jun 25, 2009 8:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you think Hurd needs to be doubled
but DCs dont need to gameplan for someone like VIncent Jackson?
Talk about a double standard
by aussie_cowboy on Jun 25, 2009 12:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no, I never said I think Hurd needs to be doubled
I said if teams double Witten and stack the line, any of our WRs can beat single coverage.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jun 25, 2009 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Am I missing something?
“any of our WRs can beat single coverage”
Therefore they need to be double covered, right?
by aussie_cowboy on Jun 25, 2009 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no, because defenses can't double everyone
They have to pick and choose who they double and obviously it will be Wiiten and RW as being our 2 best receivers.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jun 26, 2009 7:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what the Giants did
and Garrett/Romo responded by throwing to the backs on the side the blitz came from (left of course, where Flo and Proctor were playing touch football). And because of Bennett, testing the WRs will be a good thing for the Dallas offense – clear-out routes that drag the CBs and safeties intermediate and deep and a RB or Bennett in the short with solid yac. And the two TE set will often have the defense out of their nickle and dime because of the run threat.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on Jun 24, 2009 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I don't think they were putting 8 in the box...
They were putting pressure on with 7. They kept safety help over the top. Without the “player”, I think they will send more people.
LOL @ “touch football”!
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
by 5Blings on Jun 24, 2009 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've watched it a couple of times
They did a little of everything including the 8 man front, although at times the safety would back off. It was one of those games (as we’ve talked about before) where straight ahead runs went for nothing, so they used draws, delays and swing passes to get the backs involved.
I know, I probably exaggerated on that. There were several times where they didn’t actually touch anyone…
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on Jun 24, 2009 7:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt that your scenario would work for the defense since the two corners would have to play on islands and very few teams have two guys capable of doing so on a consistent basis. Also, I think I would trust Romo to get the ball to Williams on the outside since he would be so much bigger than the corner.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on Jun 24, 2009 11:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm
Do you think Asante Samuel and Sheldon Brown can?
How about Carlos Rogers and DeAngelo Hall?
Aaron Ross and Corey Webster?
These teams duos seemed to do a pretty good job against the Dallas with T.O. drawing double coverage. I don’t remember the guy opposite T.O. consistently beating the CB on an island. Do you?
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
by 5Blings on Jun 25, 2009 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's because Romo wasn't usually looking their way
because T.O. demanded the ball be thrown to him.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jun 25, 2009 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So
You are saying they were open but Romo decided to throw to T.O. in double coverage.
I see.
Wait.
No I don’t.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
by 5Blings on Jun 25, 2009 6:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're missing the point
It’s not about production. It’s about stretching the field and keeping the defense honest. A TE cannot stretch the field vertically, or make defenses cover the sidelines because of tough out patterns. Only a #1 WR can.
by bewareofdware on Jun 24, 2009 12:23 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
that's simply not true
A WR doesn’t have to be a true #1 WR to stretch the field and make defenses honest. Both Austin and RW have legit 4.4 speed to stretch the field.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jun 24, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Witten can stretch the field
but so can Roy and Miles. Their effectiveness will dictate whether they get singled or doubled, but they have to be respected deep.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on Jun 24, 2009 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And, it's much easier to nullify a TE than a WR
TO had more yardage than Witten each of the last 3 seasons, and caught 3 times as many TDs over that span, even though Witten had more catches in 2 of 3 years. That just shows that a great TE is nowhere near as much of a threat as a great WR. Everyone says TO was in decline and had a horrible season last year because he only had 2 games with 100+ yards, but that’s how many Witten had also, and TO had more yardage and 250% more TDs.
by Baked Potato Soup on Jun 24, 2009 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And much fewer drops
But you’re wrong about nullifying a TE being easier. Gates, Gonzo, Witten, Sharp, etc…the great ones can’t be covered with a LB or Safety , and corners are usually too small.
Besides, this is an inane argument. Roy Williams, if given free reign, will destroy a team.
It's not personal, it's just business
by Fighter15 on Jun 25, 2009 8:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Was that a shoutout to Free Reign's new record deal?
They’re heavier than metal.
A TE may be tougher to match up with your traditional defense, but you can alter your scheme and force them to stay in and block, either eliminating the #1 option as a pass catching threat, or exposing the QB and running game to blitzes if they choose not to keep the TE in.
by Baked Potato Soup on Jun 25, 2009 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes..and
That’s the key to the 2 TE formation. If you do try to match up, then you’re going to see a lot of power runs.
Blitz? OK, I’ll take a 7 v 5 off tackle run or a hot route (another t.o. shortcoming) to Roy Williams. Hey, if you send an all-out blitz, I’ll keep both TE’s & RBs in max protect and get RW & Austin in one-on-one coverages deep. Or swing passes to Felix. Or seam routes to either/or/both Witten and Bennett. Or draw and screen plays (blitz killers). Or…
Way too many options and ultimate versatility using the 2 TE formation. It was what BP wanted when he drafted Fasano. Bennett is twice the talent.
Simply put, this offense is going to be nearly impossible to stop…if healthy.
It's not personal, it's just business
by Fighter15 on Jun 25, 2009 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i find this comment intresting
i remember Bill Parcells in one of his presseres years ago justify drafting Fasano saying the chiefs were the hardest team to defend because two good tight ends were nearly impossible to defend because they created so many mismatches.
by Musiccitynorm on Jun 25, 2009 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
BINGO
Not only is it the match-up on the field, but it’s setting the defense up to have the wrong package on the field. If they go nickel or dime, you run; if they go base, you pass.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on Jun 25, 2009 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How did that work out for us?
by Baked Potato Soup on Jun 25, 2009 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not well...
But from what I’ve seen, I think Bennett is much more athletic than Fasano.
We’ll see I guess.
it was weird, I... I mean you probably didn't hear about it because I went under the name of Mike Honcho. But I just wanted you to know that. If you can hear me, if it got into your brain somehow. That I spread my buttcheeks as Mike Honcho.
by AirforceBat on Jun 25, 2009 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fasano wasn't up to the task
Parcells couldn’t pick linemen either. Oh well.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on Jun 25, 2009 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He had a decent year in Miami.
But if he’s a bad example, what is a good example of an unstoppable 2 TE offense?
by Baked Potato Soup on Jun 25, 2009 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's just the point!
THANK YOU! Heh heh.
Fasano is just OK. He is just not special either as a blocker or a pass catcher.
There haven’t been any good “dynamic duos” like this before that I can think of. I really think this could be something special, at least for a couple of years.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on Jun 25, 2009 7:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's the point?
That despite Parcells’ proclamation, no 2 TE offense has actually been nearly impossible to defend? I’m asking for an example of this nearly unstoppable 2 TE offense, besides on Madden.
If it were truly that effective of an offense, don’t you think that there would have been a “dynamic duo” like this before? You’re not going to have 2 TEs combine for 150 catches or anything like that, and Bennett and Witten might both be effective blockers, but neither is like having an extra offensive lineman.
by Baked Potato Soup on Jun 26, 2009 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe not unstoppable ...
… but certainly nice to have that as an option in the playbook.
Here’s Greenbay using the 2 TEs against Dallas on youtube
by One.Cool.Customer on Jun 26, 2009 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah Keith Jackson and Mark Chmura
were a SOLID tight end combo in 1995-96
by DavidH22 on Jun 26, 2009 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That he was just decent
And Bennett may be much more than decent. That’s pretty much it.
That fact that something like that hasn’t happened before does not make it ipso facto impossible. I am trying to figure out why it would not work and so far I think it looks like a great idea. Ten years ago a four WRs was also “not effective”. Now it is.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on Jun 26, 2009 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Me and you agree with alot of things, but I don’t think it’s easier to nullify a tightend.
As a matter of fact, I think it’s harder to nullify an elite TE then an elite WR.
With the few exceptions like your Larry Fitzgeralds, your TE is generally bigger matchup problem and they can cause problems with how defenses handle you on the line of scrimmage.
I remember Bill Billichek said going into that 2007 game that he was concerned more with Witten then Owens. I’m not saying he was correct in that assessment, but a tightend like Witten who can block AND catch is very different.
If you’re putting two linebackers and or a safety on you’re tightend, you are taking out one guy who is potential blitzer, if you blitz then you are risking one on one coverage.
JMO though.
it was weird, I... I mean you probably didn't hear about it because I went under the name of Mike Honcho. But I just wanted you to know that. If you can hear me, if it got into your brain somehow. That I spread my buttcheeks as Mike Honcho.
by AirforceBat on Jun 25, 2009 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was a poor choice of words for me.
Nullify was not the right term. I should have said compensate. It’s easier to compensate for a great TE than a great WR, because you can more easily chip him, force him to stay in to defend the blitz, or absorb his gains, as even the elite TEs average about 2-3 yds less per catch than WRs.
by Baked Potato Soup on Jun 25, 2009 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now that...
makes sense.
it was weird, I... I mean you probably didn't hear about it because I went under the name of Mike Honcho. But I just wanted you to know that. If you can hear me, if it got into your brain somehow. That I spread my buttcheeks as Mike Honcho.
by AirforceBat on Jun 25, 2009 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think the football public took last year as a measuring stick for the Boys
That would be a big mistake. There was never a time when the full 1st string was on the field. If you put barber and jones in the backfield, and line up whitten, who do you cover? plus roy, austin and crayton spread out wide will cause the defense to pick their poison. I can’t wait to see the Boys light up that brand new scoreboard
by mutombo4life on Jun 24, 2009 1:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
One of the best fanposts on the subject
Nice read Luke.
Training Camp '09 = Mega Thunder Dome....80 men enter, 53 men leave.
by APerfectStar on Jun 25, 2009 4:02 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
To all posts above...
I think Dallas is going to be so damn intriguing to watch not because of Roy Williams, Felix Jones, or any receiver on the roster.
Martellus Bennett to me is just matchup killer.
I’m trying to think of another team that has ever had a pair of tightends that are that talented.
it was weird, I... I mean you probably didn't hear about it because I went under the name of Mike Honcho. But I just wanted you to know that. If you can hear me, if it got into your brain somehow. That I spread my buttcheeks as Mike Honcho.
by AirforceBat on Jun 25, 2009 9:05 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I love me some Marty B
If he works on his route running, the guy has the chance to be unstoppable. The guy is huge, fast, and makes tough catches. I find it hard to believe any team could effectively stop him and Witten on the field at the same time.
by Mandmeisterx on Jun 25, 2009 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Chargers of the mid-80s had some talented tight ends
with HOFer Kellen Winslow and Pete Holohan and Eric Sievers.
And at one point the Cowboys did have Doug Cocbie and Billy Joe Dupree, although BJ was at the end of his career. And no one would confuse them with the tandem of Witten and Martellus.
by DavidH22 on Jun 25, 2009 10:16 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
All this counting on undrafted free agents like Hurd and Austin
reminded me of Jason Tucker. Remember him? Although he was actually a 6th round draft pick of the Bengals in 1998, when he signed as a free agent with Dallas in 1999 he actually had a solid season after Irvin’s career-ending injury. But water always seeks its own level, and after a mediocre 2000 season, Tucker was out of the league. I am also reminded of other undrafted, or low-drafted flameouts like Karl Powe, Ken Yon Rambo, Reggie Swinton, etc.
There are usually reasons why players aren’t drafted. I hope Austin and Hurd are exceptions to this rule. If those two manage to somehow catch between them their combined career totals through three seasons (each), I’ll be ecstatic – 42-743-4.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again – I miss Antonio Bryant!
by DavidH22 on Jun 25, 2009 3:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Drew Pearson was undrafted as well
and that’s when the draft was 17 rds!
Don’t kid yourself, Austin and Hurd can play.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jun 25, 2009 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Drew Pearson proved himself IMMEDIATELY his rookie year
forgive me if I hesitate to equate to guys who have combined for 42 catches and missed probably 20 games with injuries between them in six years worth of games.
Like I said, if those two combine for 40 catches, 600 yards and 5-6 TDs this year, I’ll be damned happy.
by DavidH22 on Jun 25, 2009 7:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bryant
Wasn’t worth the trouble.
Enormous Ability, but he was crazy. Not like Ray Lewis crazy, like talks to himself crazy. There is always a reason if a WR has played for 4 different teams in his career.
it was weird, I... I mean you probably didn't hear about it because I went under the name of Mike Honcho. But I just wanted you to know that. If you can hear me, if it got into your brain somehow. That I spread my buttcheeks as Mike Honcho.
by AirforceBat on Jun 25, 2009 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we're comparing crazy cats and their more talented counterparts.....
There’s a reason why Charles Haley played for five Super Bowl winners while full-blown wack-a-loon Alonzo Spellman’s career only lasted a decade as just another guy.
by MadMick on Jun 26, 2009 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is Jason relly statisticly that good?
I do think that Jason Wittin is resever but is he really better then all thouse guys i mean statisticly speaking.
by Cowboyz fan on Jun 29, 2009 11:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
More catches than Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Braylon Edwards, Roddy White, Greg Jennings, Randy Moss and Terrell Owens :)
That’s why you had some problems :)
R.I.P, Air McNair
by number5 on Jul 6, 2009 2:57 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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