The True Area of Concern
by rioplayer7 on Jul 1, 2009 2:37 AM CDT
93 comments
I have heard way too much talk about the wide receiver position and I am ready to bring light to the true position that may break or make our season. It might live or die by the left tackle position. Flozell Adams is getting up there in age, and it is this position I believe we have absolutely no depth at. I have heard the idea of moving Leonard Davis to the position if there was a problem, but does anyone remember his days in Arizona at that position?
I think the main concern, after teams make their cuts, is to try and find a veteran that might be able to fill in. I am very concerned about this position and it will not matter who are Wrs are or even our Qb if his blindside is left to a sub par fill in. We already saw what the mess did at LG, but what happens if Flozell goes down or if his age really starts to set in?
Even looking at the opposit side, what happens if Columbo goes down. Wrs do not win Super Bowls, and it will be an extremely sub par season if one of these positions goes down. I only hope we can find some sort of depth at that position if not we might be in for a world of hurt!!!!!
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100% Agreed...
O Line is absolutely the Cowboys #1 concern this year, and it’s looking like an absolute nightmare scenario for the next 3-4 years. The ages of the projected starters by the time the playoffs roll around…
Flozell Adams – 34
Kyle Kosier – 31
Andre Gurode – 31
Leonard Davis – 31
Marc Colombo – 31
And there is already evidence that the O Line wears down late in the season…
2008 – Sacks allowed…
September – 3
October – 10 (6 on Brad Johnson)
November – 3
December – 12
2007 – Sacks allowed…
September – 6
October – 5
November – 5
December – 8
As these guys get older and older and older and the FO continues to ignore addressing the position, this is going to be a MAJOR issue for years to come.
by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 1, 2009 7:25 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
BTW, about the stats in December...
Apples and oranges…
Comparing sacks allowed between months is like comparing CBs stats from diferent Divisions… They didn’t faced the same level of competition, right?
Last year in December they faced: Pittsburgh, NYG, Baltimore and Philly… On sacks they ranked: 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 11th… Let’s compare that to the month of September: Cleveland, Philly, Green Bay and Washington… 3rd, 25th, 28th and 30th…
Ugh! That’s certain evidence of some wearing down late in the season! Come on, dude, you can do better than this…
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
by Chandus on Jul 1, 2009 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, Philly, NY, Baltimore, and Pitt certainly had excellent defenses… no doubt. But 12 sacks in a month and 3 sacks in a month (which happened twice) is an enormous difference.
by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 1, 2009 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really an enourmous difference...
Our team allowed 31 sacks last year, which roughly averages at 2 sacks allowed per game…
Considering that Pittsburgh averaged 3.2, Philly 3, NYG 2.6 and Baltimore 2.1 you can easily make the case of how this combination will get to the QB much more than this combination: Cleveland 1 sack, Washington 1.5 and Green Bay 1.7.
That our team had a pretty decent number of sacks allowed (considering the amount of sacks that Johnson received) means that they could shut down poor pass rush teams, but couldn’t stop the best, ay least for most of the time (they indeed held your team sackless in the first game).
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
by Chandus on Jul 1, 2009 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Considering that Pittsburgh averaged 3.2, Philly 3, NYG 2.6 and Baltimore 2.1 you can easily make the case of how this combination will get to the QB much more than this combination: Cleveland 1 sack, Washington 1.5 and Green Bay 1.7.
Dude, you’re omitting a team there because it doesn’t support your argument. They played 4 games in September, not 3.
Honestly, I have no idea why you’re debating me on this. It’s the oldest offensive line in the NFL. Period.
by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 1, 2009 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, you’re omitting a team there because it doesn’t support your argument. They played 4 games in September, not 3.
What’s the purpose of mentioning one team twice in the same sentence? Reading the name of your team makes you feel all warm inside?
It’s the oldest offensive line in the NFL. Period.
And there’s obvious evidence of their late season collapses, right? You can keep trying, that won’t make it right.
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
by Chandus on Jul 1, 2009 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And there’s obvious evidence of their late season collapses, right?
Yup.
by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 1, 2009 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
but you have absolutely no evidence
if any collapse is due to their age.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jul 1, 2009 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I do have their December record as well as the dramatic increase of the number of sacks given up in December, compared to the rest of the season… It’s certainly evidence.
by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 1, 2009 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no it's not
you have absolutely no evidence that the December collapses are due to age.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jul 1, 2009 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup. Evidence in its broadest sense includes everything that is used to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion.
by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 1, 2009 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
okay, you have no credible evidence
that can link the two.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jul 1, 2009 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, I guess we just have to agree to disagree...
I think that having an entire offensive line made up of four 31 year olds, a 34 year old, and a bunch of untested guys on the bench is cause for major concern, not just for the upcoming season, but really more as an overwhelming issue in the following seasons.
You think that offensive linemen can perform at a high level and sometimes even get better well into their mid-30’s.
I’m a lot more comfortable with a nice core of guys in their mid-late 20’s, but that’s just me. We’ll find out soon enough, I suppose.
by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 2, 2009 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't Dallas help inflate the #'s of the better teams?
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
by 5Blings on Jul 2, 2009 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
While its true the teams we play in December, have tended to have better defences....
isn’t even more true that if you build a team to win championships, shouldn’t your O-line be build to match up and " defend" against the better defences of the league?
No, real epiphany here!
by bad knees on Jul 1, 2009 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
true, but
what you expect to see is dominating the lesser competition, which we did and holding the better ones below their average, which we did. there is a reason pitt, ravens, giants and philly ranked among the best defensive teams in the league. holding them below their average means that we succeeded in controlling them.
now, losing in the way that we did to pitt and ravens is sickening. I attribute the loss to philly to a team, meaning entire team giving up including coaches, etc. when a player, a back up player at that screams right after the game, thank god I am a FA and I am out a here, it shows you the atmosphere of the team.
by CowboysFanatic on Jul 2, 2009 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thats a bit misleading.
We have finished the end of the year with Top Ds and top sack defenses. I think we will start retooling in the next draft and we may have a guy or 2(Free, McQ, Brewster) who can play but just hasnt had his chance yet. You did point out a major snafu in having all your players all around the same age. You should have a nice mixture of young and old guys so your not put in the position of having to totally rebuild at one time. However,You guys seem to retool your line in 1 offseason, so it can be done. It would be nice to have a road grater like Andrews to retool around.
We didnt make any big splashes in FA but with Ware’s contract I think we needed the extra space and extra cash. i think we will have a little flexability next offseason. Jones isnt afraid to open up his wallet and we might have some trade bait if we hit on another DB in this draft.
I read no newspaper but Ritchies, and in that chiefly the advertisements, For they contain the only truths to be relied upon in a newspaper. Thomas Jefferson.
by squidlo97 on Jul 1, 2009 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As much as I hate to agree with an Eagles fan
You can’t argue those numbers. I think our #1 pick in next years draft absolutely has to be an LT. Even if Free shows that he is a viable replacement for Flozell, we still need a solid top OL prospect in next years draft. Hell, we probably need to draft 2-3 OL next year.
"So you can’t stiff arm at all? What about the throat?"- Marion "Barbarian" Barber
by DC_fan on Jul 1, 2009 8:39 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks... It's really shocking how they've completely ignored the O Line
2009 – They drafted 12 players, and only took ONE offensive lineman – Robert Brewster in the 3rd round.
2008 – 6 picks, no OL.
2007 – 8 picks, and they took James Marten in the 3rd round (now on the Raiders) and Doug Free in the 4th.
2006 – 8 picks, and they took 2 OL, but waited until the 7th round to do so – tackle Pat McQuistan (has survived so far, battling for a roster spot this year) and center E.J. Whitley (out of the league)
2005 – 8 picks (and it’s hard not to like what they did in this draft), 1 OT in the 6th round – Rob Petitti (out of the league)
2004 – 8 picks, 2 OL – tackle Jacob Rogers (out of the league) in the 2nd, and guard Stephen Peterman (now on the Lions) in the 3rd.
2003 – 7 picks (and another good draft), but 1 OL – center Al Johnson (out of the league).
So in the past 7 years, they’ve drafted 9 offensive linemen. Only 3 are still with the team (for now), none start, 4 are out of the league completely, and just one is a starter in the NFL (Stephen Peterman, although it’s with the Lions). That’s crazy stuff.
by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 1, 2009 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like both your comments
and have seen them both in similar form in some of your excellent posts on the Bleeding Green Nation Blog. I particularly enjoyed your Biggest Strengths & Weaknesses Series on the NFC East teams. More, please.
by One.Cool.Customer on Jul 1, 2009 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks buddy. Unfortunately, right now I have a little writers block. Otherwise, I have all the time in the world at work.
by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 1, 2009 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just read your Strengths and Weaknesses article
and actually I agree with about 90% of what you’ve said. I do think Dallas is the only team that didnt improve in the offseason. Its not a commonly heald opinion around here because we have somehow gotten better by losing a future HoF WR. Actually I’m not 100% against that argument (which I believe you can probably understand) but I’m not sold on it either.
You give props to Romo (which surprises me), our RBs (which doesnt surprise me), our TEs (you will see this year why we are so excited about Martellus) and of course, Ware. Although I will say your statement about a cap-destroying contract is weak. There havent been many cap destroying contracts in the NFL lately and the Cowboys cap is in fine shape. Are you telling me you wouldnt take Ware (and his soon-to-be contract in Philly?)
You criticize the following areas:
WRs – easy to do, don’t blame you.
OL – agree they are a mature bunch, but I’m not sure how this is relevant to the 2009 season. Yes, they need to re-load beginning this next offseason, but I’m not sure how this is a weakness at the moment. Three of the five guys have been to the Pro Bowl each of the last 2 seasons, and two are on 3 straight years. Unless there is an injury (which is more likely due to age, I’ll grant you that) then there is really no problem.
DL – I cant really disagree with you here. Its pretty weak after Ratliff and maybe Olshansky. And the depth is scary. In a bad way.
LBs (not named Ware) – You dont even mention Bradie James who had a fantastic year last year. Led all ILBs in sacks and was strong against the run. And there was a reason Ellis was cut and that’s Anthony Spencer. I dont think its accurate to call Spencer a “major disappointment” at this point. He hasnt had much opportunity to play what with his injuries and being behind Ellis. When he’s played, he’s played pretty well. Yes, Carpenter is a lost cause. Thanks for that pick, Tuna.
The secondary – Could go either way. You make a decent argument against, but I could make an equally compelling argument for. I think it will be based on the health of Newman and the rest of the starters.
Coaching – Agree, this guy sucks. I dont think Dallas will ever be disciplined enough to win a Super Bowl under Wade Phillips. I can see why you (as an opponent) like him. I would like him for your team too.
All in all, a pretty accurate rant regarding the 2009 Cowboys. Dawk, you’re one of the more astute observers on this board. Unfortunately, I think your season prediction could be correct. I think Dallas will have to have break-out seasons from several players (Felix, Roy Wi11iams, Spencer, Jenkins/Scandrick) to get back to the Super Bowl. Remember, in Dallas, we talk in terms of Super Bowl victories as positive seasons. Not division titles and playoff victories. (Sorry, I had to take a parting shot at your team since I’m now not feeling too good about my guys.)
by TCBinNYC on Jul 1, 2009 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks. And agreed on Bradie James. I had a reason for not mentioning him (I think at the time I didn’t perceive him as either a strength or weakness), but since I mentioned every other starter it didn’t make sense not to mention him. That said, I’ve since been somewhat convinced James might be more of a player than I gave him credit for… Probably should have lumped him in with Ware.
by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 1, 2009 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And just to be clear...
I didn’t “predict” they’d be sub .500 (I think that’s what you’re referring to). I just said don’t be surprised if it happens. Gun to my head, someone says "We’ll shoot your mother if you don’t get their record correct, I’d have a tough decision between 9-7 and 8-8.
by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 1, 2009 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
go with 9-7
we’ve finished with that mark 4 of the last 6 years.
by foyesboys on Jul 1, 2009 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Under the same "shoot your mother" clause ...
Unfortunately, I would have the exact same tough decision.
by TCBinNYC on Jul 2, 2009 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now if it was a "shoot your wife" scenario ...
Hmm, 16-0 or 0-16.
(just kidding. mostly.)
by TCBinNYC on Jul 2, 2009 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I shouldnt say that
but damn if the girl isnt acting the fool today. Our 11 month old (first kid) is sick for the first time today and the wife is hysterical. Sometimes she’s sweet as can be and sometimes the girl from Jamaica, Queens shows her true colors.
Sorry, back to football. Umm, Eagles suck and stuff.
by TCBinNYC on Jul 2, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
“My wife is an idiot” jokes are just like “Your mother’s a whore” jokes. You don’t really mean them… They’re just part of the culture.
by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 2, 2009 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think you can say we "completely ignored the oline"...
9 picks in 7 years, including 2 second rounders, 2 thirds and a fourth, isn’t ignoring the line. We can’t take 2-3 lineman every year. But we definitely don’t do a good job of progressing olineman as other teams, specifically philly.
That being said…nobody has backup lineman.Seriously, you never know what you have at those positions untill your starters get hurt. We are one of the better off teams in the league in the sense that we have 4 very capable starters, only 1 of which is “old”, and for the most part they’ve been healthy.
by foyesboys on Jul 1, 2009 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've been saying this to the point of exhaustion
Teams win and lose basd on line paly and Dallas has not done well selecting O-linemen, and only an adequate job on d-line.
My pet theory is that besides age is that big lines that are asked to pass black a lot may actually wear down over the season. Linemen will all tell you that what they like to do is run block and Dallas’ play calling, while not Reid-esque, has been pass heavy.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
by dunkman on Jul 6, 2009 7:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that we need to retool the OL
and I think we will take both avenues, FA and draft. we do need our next LT and this is the season for Free to show if he is truly capable. I think he is going to start preseason games to show what he can do against starting calibur players. that would go a long way in determining our draft and FA strategy next summer. we tried to draft a center this year, but didn’t happen. bet you it will happen next year. davis has another 3-4 years and often you can pick up a guard in FA. columbo has another 3 years left as well.
and again, you are right, LT is the biggest question mark.
by CowboysFanatic on Jul 2, 2009 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed..how do they address?
I think everyone would agree that the OL is a huge concern…so let’s address it. You have Jerry’s checkbook…who’s agent do you call? How do the Cowboys best address this need…balancing the need for starters on Sunday and young guys they are bringing up to one day grow up to be starters.
by tb0n3 on Jul 1, 2009 9:06 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Like at WR, GM Jerry has gone Free Agency
Unlike WR, they want to draft future replacements, but have made this group up of quality FAs…to wit:
- LT Flo, 2nd round Pick, 5-time Pro Bowler, still very capable (2 productive years left)
- LG Kosier/Holland, 4th round picks, traded for Holland w/6th Round in 2010…both have 4-5 years at a high level
- C Gurode, 2nd Round Pick of Cowboys in ’02, 2-time Pro Bowler, best in league
- RG Davis, 1st Round (2nd overall), 2-time Pro Bowler, has min of 5 yrs left
- RT Colombo, 1st Round (29th overall), entering his prime…min 5yrs
Yes, we’ve sucked at drafting them, but the line “as-is” competes with any unit in the NFL. They now have their 3rd offseason working together. They’ve only played one year together and led the offense to the greatest statistical year in the history of this franchise.
So we had to get them in FA? So did Philthy. It just means that we overspent. So freakin’ what?
It's not personal, it's just business
by Fighter15 on Jul 1, 2009 9:59 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Haha...
Three 31 year olds have a minimum of 5 years left? This ain’t baseball, brother.
by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 1, 2009 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure
It is common place that a starting quality OL spends 12-15 years in the league. They are all entering their 8th year.
2 of the 3 are coming off Pro Bowls and both are considered among the best in the league right now. I don’t see that as a problem.
It's not personal, it's just business
by Fighter15 on Jul 1, 2009 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trivia question for you...
How many offensive lineman in the NFL right now are at least 35 years old?
Seriously, take a guess. I’ll list them all after you guess.
by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 1, 2009 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Times up!
There are a grand total total of 3, that’s 1-2-3 offensive linemen currently on an NFL roster that are at least 35 years of age of older (and only 1 that’s 36 or older)…
Casey Wiegman, Den – 35
Walter Jones, Sea – 35
Kevin Mawae, Ten – 38
by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 1, 2009 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice work Dawk if your stats are correct
by rioplayer7 on Jul 1, 2009 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, I think they’re correct. Technically, there are still some guys out there that still want to play and might get signed by a desperate team, but as of right now they are not currently on a roster. Some that I can think of are…
Jon Runyan – 35
Wayne Gandy – 38
Fred Miller – 36
by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 1, 2009 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Still don't see the OL age as a problem.
31 by the end of this season is not a cause for concern. OL guys hit their prime in their late 20’s to early 30’s usually.
I am concerned about Flo. He had a wretched year in 2008 with injuries. I hope Doug Free shows some talent this TC and pre-season, otherwise I’m in favor of Dallas picking up any vet who can be at least mediocre as backup. I don’t want to see Bigg Davis moved out to LT should Flo get hurt.
Training Camp '09 = Mega Thunder Dome....80 men enter, 53 men leave.
by APerfectStar on Jul 2, 2009 4:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't normally respond to your inane rants, but
NE and NYG have what are generally considered the best OL in football, along with the Cowboys (ranked #1 going into last year).
Ages for NE:
30, 27, 33, 30, 31
Ages for NYG:
32, 30, 27, 29, 30
Ages for Boys (assuming Holland beats out Kosier):
34, 29, 31, 31, 31
Nobody is saying NE or the Jints are too old. Getting a LT next offseason is a given, thus drastically reducing the average age.
This line will be fine as long as they stay healthy, which BTW, is normal for most OL units. These guys (lineman) simply don’t miss that many games compared to all other positions and the average career is nearly double that of skill positions (except QB, of course).
It's not personal, it's just business
by Fighter15 on Jul 2, 2009 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure who’s calling the Pats offensive line the best in the NFL, but OK, I’ll go with it… I agree… They’re old too, and should absolutely be looking to put pieces in place to eventually replace those guys… Oh wait, they drafted 3 offensive linemen this year. I guess they get it. The Cowboys? 12 draft picks this year, ONE offensive lineman. Last year? None. They don’t get it.
As for the Giants, they definitely do have one of, if not the best, offensive lines in the NFL. The Cowboys don’t. There’s reason #1 why you won’t hear anything about the Giants O Line. The second reason is because the average age of the Giants O Line is 29.6 years old. The Cowboys? 31.6. Not to state the obvious, but that’s 2 full years older.
Maybe you should go back to not responding to my inane rants.
by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 2, 2009 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and you really think there is a big difference
between 29 and 31?? Give me a break, you’re just nick picking now.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jul 2, 2009 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hell yeah… For an average age of 5 offensive linemen, 2 years is monumental.
by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 2, 2009 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no it isn't
you’re way too hung up on the age of a player, the bottom line is if a guy can play, he can play no matter if he’s in his 20s or 30s.
Just look at Ray Lewis and Kurt Warner. The Cowboys OL failures have nothing to do with their age but their skill level and talent.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jul 2, 2009 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup... Ray Lewis and Kurt Warner...
“A couple Hall of Famers played well deep into their 30’s. All 5 of my 31+ year old offensive linemen can too!”
(raising a glass) Here’s to hoping the Cowboys’ FO is also thinking that way.
by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 2, 2009 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm skeptical about Pro Bowl accolades
so lets take those with a grain of salt. I do agree that if they all play up to their potential, and if they all stay relatively healthy, then this is an above average offensive line. But that’s a lot of “ifs.”
I guess the results of signing serious/relatively high-profile free agent linemen pickups are spotty. There’s Marco Rivera in 2005, and we all know how that turned out. Leonard Davis has been working OK I suppose, but to me his biggest play has been that 3rd down personal foul against Mike Strahan. I don’t count Columbo since he was pretty much a reclamation project picked up off the scrap heap, and nobody really expected Kosier to be anything more than JAG. Maybe there have been or were other possible free agent linemen that deserved the team’s attention.
by DavidH22 on Jul 1, 2009 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
The o line is a concern and they must build it through the draft because going out into free agency looking for lineman is way too expensive..Drafting brewster who I like alot is a good start.. In next aprils draft there main focus no doubt should be on the offensive line…
by scandrick32 on Jul 1, 2009 10:03 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
the one thing you won't find in FA
is LTs. teams tend to hold on and pay high dollars to keep them. eagles getting peters was a biut of a luck, with buffalo not willing to spend money and the eagles having two first round picks. if they had one, they probably wouldn’t have made the trade. guards can be found in FA a lot easier. specially those that would be servicable and good for 3-5 year period.
by CowboysFanatic on Jul 2, 2009 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well said.
You also dont find decent LTs outside the first round of the draft. Sure, there are exceptions, but take a look at this years Pro Bowl tackles. Of the eight players one was drafted first overall (JLong), four were drafted top 10 (JThomas 3rd, CSamuels 3rd, WJones 6th, and JGross 8th), and two were drafted early 2nd round (FAdams 38th and MRoos 41st). The anomaly is JPeters who went undrafted as a Tught End.
I will be disappointed if our first pick is not an Offensive Tackle, unless of course, there is a much better player at another position of need (WR, NT, DE, S)
by TCBinNYC on Jul 2, 2009 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I couldn't agree more
I have been arguing all off season that our biggest area of need in the draft was OL and at that LT. I was so much hoping to trade up and grab one of the LTs in this deep LT draft. now, I don’t know much about brewster, but I don’t feel comfortable with him backing up adams, and we don’t get the warm and fuzzy’s from the team regarding McQ and Free.
by CowboysFanatic on Jul 1, 2009 10:40 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
They have Brewster listed as a Tackle.
So maybe they see him as developing into a replacement for Flo. They have Proctor listed as a Center, also, so that verifies why a lot of people thought they retained him even after his up and down year last year.
by Baked Potato Soup on Jul 1, 2009 10:40 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think he is a RT at best but I cant help but think he is a G.
I read no newspaper but Ritchies, and in that chiefly the advertisements, For they contain the only truths to be relied upon in a newspaper. Thomas Jefferson.
by squidlo97 on Jul 1, 2009 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"up and down"
thats being generous haha
by foyesboys on Jul 2, 2009 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A couple of thoughts...
1. Who’s saying that the team doesn’t has at least one decent young backup?
Is that an informed opinion? Let’s look at what is believed to be “the best OLine” in the year to come.
Jason Peters. Project, played his first year at TE. Took him 3 years to play at Tackle at a high level, was the swing Tackle (RT-LT). In his 4th year the light came on and played at a really high level at LT.
Todd Herremans. Makes me think Kyle Kosier, the guy is consistently decent and his best season was last year (his 4th year).
Jamaal Jackson. Starter until his 3rd year and was only elevated to starter because Hank Fraley was playing at a pretty low level…
Stacey Andrews. Started 3 games in his 3rd year.
Doug Free sucks because he hasn’t played? It takes time to develop an OLineman.
2. Age and OLineman are 2 subjects that can hurt a player chances of playing at a great level, or not.
Let’s start with 2 of our team starters:
Andre Gurode, C. A Center capable of playing at a high level in his mid and late 30s? Just going with my memory and our team… Stepnoski in his 2nd run with our team played at a pretty good level for a couple of years in his 30s. Ray Donaldson helped our team in 95 and 96 late in his 30s and on his way to 2 Pro Bowls… Right now in the League we have: Kevin Mawae, Matt Birk, Gurode, Justin Hartwig, Olin Kreutz, Todd McClure, Shaun O’Hara, Casey Rabach, Jeff Saturday and Casey Wiegmann playing at pretty high levels in their soon, mid and late 30s… And looking around, there are a lot of guys entering their 30s (Jackson, Koppen and others)… So, is it fair to guess that Gurode will continue to play at a high level in the coming years?
Mark Colombo, T. Colombo’s indeed an interesting case, he’s entering his 9th year in the League, will be 31 in October and started 7 games in his first 5 years in the League as he battled a severe knee injury. He has very little thread in his tires, but it’s hard to know how this will affect his career as very few guys have had careers like his. But you can certainly make the case that he will be capable of mantaining a high level for some years, especially at RT.
And last, Mark Tuinei and Nate Newton were 33 and 32 in 1992 and I’m guessing that Aikman, Emmitt and Irvin weren’t complaining that 2 of their team best OLineman were old on their way to 3 SB wins…
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
by Chandus on Jul 1, 2009 11:09 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Jason Peters. Project, played his first year at TE. Took him 3 years to play at Tackle at a high level, was the swing Tackle (RT-LT). In his 4th year the light came on and played at a really high level at LT.
Todd Herremans. Makes me think Kyle Kosier, the guy is consistently decent and his best season was last year (his 4th year).
Jamaal Jackson. Starter until his 3rd year and was only elevated to starter because Hank Fraley was playing at a pretty low level…
Stacey Andrews. Started 3 games in his 3rd year.
What about Shawn Andrews? His case doesn’t support your argument (which I actually slightly agree with), so you just leave him out?
Doug Free sucks because he hasn’t played? It takes time to develop an OLineman.
It’s not that he sucks. It’s that he might suck. He’s untested.
Kevin Mawae, Matt Birk, Gurode, Justin Hartwig, Olin Kreutz, Todd McClure, Shaun O’Hara, Casey Rabach, Jeff Saturday and Casey Wiegmann playing at pretty high levels in their soon, mid and late 30s…
OK, that’s 10 players. There are 32 NFL teams. So there’s roughly ONE good offensive lineman in his 30’s per every third team? Again, not to beat a dead horse, but the ENTIRE line on one team will be 31 in December.
Mark Colombo, T. Colombo’s indeed an interesting case, he’s entering his 9th year in the League, will be 31 in October and started 7 games in his first 5 years in the League as he battled a severe knee injury. He has very little thread in his tires, but it’s hard to know how this will affect his career as very few guys have had careers like his.
So a “severe knee injury” that hampered him for 5 years doesn’t count as “tread on the tires?”
And last, Mark Tuinei and Nate Newton were 33 and 32 in 1992 and I’m guessing that Aikman, Emmitt and Irvin weren’t complaining that 2 of their team best OLineman were old on their way to 3 SB wins…
Sure, those 2 guys were getting up there in age. But what about the other 3 guys along the line? I think you failed to mention Mark Stepnoski (25 years old in 92), John Gesek (29) and arguably your best offensive lineman from that era, Erik Williams (24 years old). The difference here is that the ENTIRE 2009 Cowboys O Line will be 31 or older when the playoffs roll around. Is this point that difficult to grasp?
by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 1, 2009 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about Shawn Andrews? His case doesn’t support your argument (which I actually slightly agree with), so you just leave him out?
4 Out of 5 supposed starters, you’re nitpicking.
It’s not that he sucks. It’s that he might suck. He’s untested.
Oh, of course, but development takes time on several players, he’s untested, true, but that isn’t saying much, he may turn to be a pretty good player in time.
Is this point that difficult to grasp?
As is the point that even at 30 years old and OLineman can still play at a really high level?
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
by Chandus on Jul 1, 2009 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
4 Out of 5 supposed starters, you’re nitpicking.
No I’m not. If you’re going to compare entire offensive lines, don’t just pick and choose which ones support your arguments.
As is the point that even at 30 years old and OLineman can still play at a really high level?
Sure, there are rare circumstances (NOT 5 players on ONE team) where some of the best offensive linemen go late into their careers and play at a decent level… Not the same level the played at when they were 28 usually, but a decent level. As I noted above, there are only THREE offensive linemen on NFL rosters that are 35 years of age or older.
by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 1, 2009 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what about 30-35??
Thats the age range of 4 out of our 5 starters.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jul 1, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know. From what I saw, there weren’t that many. That would take considerably longer to look up an exact answer. I’d blindly bet there are less than 30 starters.
That point here isn’t so much that 31 is an age where EVERYTHING starts to fall apart (and players can still certainly be effective at 31), but it’s certainly an age where an O Lineman is very much in decline. The mere fact that there are only 3 O linemen currently in the NFL that are playing past 35 is extremely indicative of that sentiment.
by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 1, 2009 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
I think OL are like QBs and can be extremely productive into their 30s. I don’t think OL start to wear down at 31 at all.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jul 1, 2009 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of the roughly 320 offensive lineman that will suit up Week 1 in the NFL, here are the OL 35 years or older in the NFL…
Kevin Mawae – 38
Casey Wiegman – 35
Walter Jones – 35
Of the 96 quarter backs, here are the QB’s 35 years or older in the NFL…
Jeff Garcia – 39
Kurt Warner – 38
Mark Brunell – 38
Todd Collins – 37
Gus Frerotte – 37
Kerry Collins – 36
Jon Kitna – 36
Todd Baumann – 36
Damon Huard – 35
So despite there being well less than one-third the number of roster spots for a QB, there are triple the number of QB’s in the league over 35.
Now, I’m not under the believe that QB’s keep getting better into their 30’s, but they can certainly stick around a hell of a lot longer than offensive linemen. Being an NFL offensive lineman is maybe THE MOST taxing position on the body in the NFL, with the possible lone exception of running back.
Just stop it. It’s stupid to continue arguing.
by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 1, 2009 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yea..
i think its safe to say an OL at age 35 is old. But I think 31 is a long way from old. Flo is old. The rest of our line is not. 3 of the 5 younger guys haven’t had injury problems in years, if ever.And in the limited time we saw Holland, he did well.
by foyesboys on Jul 1, 2009 6:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Training Camp '09 = Mega Thunder Dome....80 men enter, 53 men leave.
by APerfectStar on Jul 2, 2009 4:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not arguing 35+ isn't old
I’m arguing 30-35 isn’t old for QBs and OL…
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jul 2, 2009 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d blindly bet there are less than 30 starters.
Really? 30 starters?
A little earlier I mentioned 10 Centers that have been playing at pretty high levels in their 30s, which means that I’m leaving the Hank Fraley’s of the world out of the conversation… That means that there are more than 10 starting Centers in the League with more than 30 years of age…
And looking around the League we have 44 OLineman that played at a really high level in their 30s and were starters. Which means, that there are a lot of 30 year old starters that don’t qualify the high level of play quota.
30 starters… LOL, you think too much of your opinion…
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
by Chandus on Jul 1, 2009 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont think there is any doubt that these guys can play at a high level.
The problem is the older you get the more likely you will break down somewhere along the way. 1 guy missing a week or too isnt a big deal, 2-3 guys missing some times starts to throw off the the timing of your offense.(see last year) We should have done a better job with the draft and mixing up the ages. Older guys bringing up the younger guys is the way to go.
Having said this, in todays NFL everyone has possible chinks in their armor. There were a few guys we were in love with and guys drafted a spot ahead of us. Sometimes the value just wasnt at the spot we picked. We will devote alot of resources to rectifing that next offseason.
Dawk, I appreciate your concern for our Line, but if I was you I might be more worried about a RB coming off of 2 surgeries and on the wrong side of 30. That is worse. You do have a young guy that look promising but you better hope he can pick up the blitz cause us, the Giants and Skins will be bringing it. If that young guy gets McNabb killed its over til ’10.
I read no newspaper but Ritchies, and in that chiefly the advertisements, For they contain the only truths to be relied upon in a newspaper. Thomas Jefferson.
by squidlo97 on Jul 1, 2009 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is the older you get the more likely you will break down somewhere along the way. 1 guy missing a week or too isnt a big deal, 2-3 guys missing some times starts to throw off the the timing of your offense.(see last year) We should have done a better job with the draft and mixing up the ages. Older guys bringing up the younger guys is the way to go.
Thank you. That’s kind of all I’m saying. Well that, and the fact that they’re in bigtime trouble in the years to come.
Dawk, I appreciate your concern for our Line, but if I was you I might be more worried about a RB coming off of 2 surgeries and on the wrong side of 30. That is worse. You do have a young guy that look promising but you better hope he can pick up the blitz cause us, the Giants and Skins will be bringing it. If that young guy gets McNabb killed its over til ’10.
Definitely not worse. Is Westbrook’s health a huge concern? Yup, just as it is every year. Aside from the loss of Jim Johnson, it’s clearly our biggest concern. That said, if McCoy can’t pick up the blitz, he’ll sit and Leonard Weaver will. We’ll loss Westbrook’s playmaking ability in that scenario, but the blocking ability won’t drop off even a little.
by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 1, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
With all our lineman in their 30's the chance of an injury on the O-line is probably over 50%
That is mainly my concern and I am not sold at our Tackle r Guard Depth
by rioplayer7 on Jul 1, 2009 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually...
WRs do win SuperBowls on occasion—like this past year, where Santonio Holmes and Larry Fitzgerald both had starring roles. And while obviously the O-lines in both Pittsburgh and Arizona weren’t terrible, neither were they dominant. Pittsburgh’s was the weakest part of the team, barely adequate at best.
A better truism is that a lack of WRs doesn’t handicap a team nearly as much as a hole on the O-line. Losing Flo for an extended period of time would be a major blow, but certainly not as bad as losing Romo or Ware, and I’d say it’s about on par with losing Newman, Ratliff, K.Hamlin, or even Gurode. (Witten and MBIII aren’t on the list only because their backups could start most anywhere else). NFL reality says that you’re going to lose at least one of those type of guys at some point during the season, and good coaches and teams can adjust their schemes to cover one major hole, even at LT.
by greatwhitenorth on Jul 1, 2009 12:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Santonio Holmes did not win the Steelers the Super Bowl
Did you watch him at all last year. He was nowhere better than Patrick Crayton in 2007. Just because a player makes a great catch in the Super Bowl does not mean he won it for his team. See David Tyree. If the other aspects of the game had not gone that way it would not have mattered that is only one play in a 60 minute game. I said it is at the line of scrimmage where games are won and could you not say the same thing that the Steelers D-line won the game for them with Harrisons interception return?
I can not name a time when a Wr took their team to the Super Bowl and won it. I would have given you Fitzgerald, but he fell short. T.O. tried with Philly but lets remember he did not even get them there. Simpy stated WR is a way overrated position and no name players like David Tyree can step up and make huge plays. I do not care who our Wrs our I care about some depth at the O-line, because with all our players in their thirties the chance of someone being injured is well over 50%.
by rioplayer7 on Jul 1, 2009 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The OL has to be waay better than '08
Because otherwise Romo won’t have a chance. I had never seen the OL better than they were in last season’s opener agains Cleveland, and that’s where they need to be most of the time. By the end of last season, it felt like there was an opposing player about to sack Romo every single play. Unacceptable.
2009 Dallas Cowboys: 10-6
by Grady90 on Jul 1, 2009 2:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Ken Hamlin should be a concern
Pro Bowl Safety who got destroyed by LeRon McClain’s stiff arm. God that was a great game!
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Jul 2, 2009 8:04 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
My guess
if Flo goes down we would move Columbo to LT and Bigg to RT. This is assuming Free fails to develop into a quality tackle.
by DoomsdayD75 on Jul 2, 2009 8:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think we're more likely to just try to move bigg to LT
why mess with 2 positions? I’m not sure columbo against a superquick Dlineman will workout any better than Leonar
by foyesboys on Jul 6, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If either Colombo or Davis ever line up at LT
we are in for a world of hurt.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jul 6, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amen, brother. I respect him as a guard, but I’d LOVE to see Leonard Davis out there at LT. That would be ugly.
by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 6, 2009 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why are you guys argueing with an eagles fan about whether our OLine is getting old? He's embarrassing you!
Is it really so hard to look at the team you root for and see a weakness?
Geez.
They ARE too old and this team will collapse in a couple of years if some of these recent OL picks don’t start performing.
We HAVE drafted OLinemen, by the way, it’s just that our FO has STUNK at it lately!
And as intelligent fans at this site you should be able to see that having ALL of your OLine approaching 32-35 is not good.
The OLine is the single most important unit on a football team. This is NFL 101. Heck, not even upper division: Intro to the NFL 1, no prerequisites. It determines the success of everything you do on offense AND helps the defense by being the key to sustaining drives and wearing teams down.
by Realist Larry on Jul 3, 2009 1:47 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Why are you making a mountain out of a molehill?
One guy is “old” in football years, and that is Flo. The rest are still in their prime. I’m not seeing the great weakness you speak of. Are you looking at this year, or 4 years down the road? Are you looking at starters, or talking about depth.
Right now they have Free and Brewster (LT and LG potentially down the road), before we write off the efforts of the front office maybe we should see what happens with the 2 of them. Next year’s draft I bet we grab at least 2 more guys early in the draft.
I don’t see Bigg and Colombo or Gurode as even close to done playing yet. I’m not sure how this myth that our entire line are members of AARP started, but let’s hope it goes peacefully away.
Training Camp '09 = Mega Thunder Dome....80 men enter, 53 men leave.
by APerfectStar on Jul 3, 2009 2:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just read the Eagle's fans facts
they speak for themsleves.
I’m as sick as anyone having this pointed out by a fan of a hated team, but facts are facts.
And nothing about the OLine is a molehill (which are pains by the way, I’ve got some of those suckers)
Do you agree that the OLine is the most imp’t unit on a team?
by Realist Larry on Jul 3, 2009 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree with the importance of the OL
I just disagree that it is old. The way I look at it is 4 guys still in their prime at 30 to 31, and one in decline at 34. And other than drafting one of the top LT candidates or maybe a center, I’m not sure what the front office could have done this year. FA is too expensive unless you are just going for the stopgap backup types.
Training Camp '09 = Mega Thunder Dome....80 men enter, 53 men leave.
by APerfectStar on Jul 3, 2009 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which facts?
Sacks in december? Sacks that can be attributed to the level of competition.
30 something year old players can’t play? 44 starters that played at good to great levels out of 160 below average, average and above average starters in the League seem to think, and make me think, otherwise…
Now, I know that Flo needs to be replaced in the really near future, Kosier and Holland won’t be resigned (unrestricted FAs next year) and I can see the other guys playing on the team for the next 2 to 4 years (especially Gurode, Centers have a long shelf life).
I’m just not that worried over what’s going to happen in the near future, because many things can happen… Maybe Joe Thomas starts a campaign about how he no longer wishes to play in Cleveland, plays like garbage in 2009 and ends up on the market in 2010… This happened for the Eagles and Cleveland is as much of a sorry franchise as Buffalo…
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
by Chandus on Jul 4, 2009 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
too much time
you guys have way too much time on your hands for this debate. Geez….
by torchindefenses on Jul 3, 2009 1:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I try to schedule a couple hours each day to waste
I miss football
Training Camp '09 = Mega Thunder Dome....80 men enter, 53 men leave.
by APerfectStar on Jul 3, 2009 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Injuries hurt our line this last year,
It’s that simple.
by Musiccitynorm on Jul 6, 2009 10:57 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Free is ready now,
This last pre season he looked really good.
by Musiccitynorm on Jul 6, 2009 1:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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