Terrell Owens VS. Roy Williams
by ProBowlFactory on Sep 10, 2009 5:51 PM CDT
85 comments
Now I expect that many of you probably laughed reading the title to this post. Hear me out though and we will see who is laughing after you see my argument here. Now, we have heard constantly that Roy Williams is not a No. 1 receiver. We have the constant contrast of Roy Williams against Terrell Owens, especially over the last 3 seasons while he was here in Dallas. However the only number presented in the argument is 38, the number of touchdowns scored by T.O. here in Dallas, which is by far the most productive receiver over the last 3 years.
I can support some of these arguments because hey, did Roy Williams have 38 touchdowns over the last 3 years? No he did not. Has he had a 1000+ yard season recently? Not since 2006. However the argument that I make is that Owens has been in the league 13 years, Roy is in his sixth season now. Do you know what it is like comparing Terrell Owens to Roy Williams? It is the exact same thing as putting up Chad Ochocinco (drafted 2001) against rookie Michael Crabtree (or any other rookie receiver this year since Crabtree looks to sit out the season). Does anyone see how ridiculous this is? You are comparing a seasoned veteran against a rookie. Of course T.O. is going to appear to be the better receiver. He has more situational experience. And not only that but he has had much better quarterbacks throwing to him and played for much better teams than Roy Williams. When was the last time the Lions did something special?
Now, my goal here is to provide as fair of a contrast/comparison as possible between the two receivers. I fully support the notion of Michael Irvin as well in this regard that the label of "No. 1 Receiver" is not gift-wrapped. It is awarded, just like a paycheck. One must earn it. I also see "No. 1 Receiver" as a title and nothing more. Because really, if T.O. or Williams or Ochocinco or Moss have a triple team and you can see that obviously before the play, for example they have 2 corners on him and no one on the opposite side covering the other receiver. Who is your No. 1 Receiver now? That's right, the other guy, the one that is going to be open. Go to receivers change for every play so No. 1 Receiver is just a label, nothing more. The idea is to get the ball to the open guy and get the most yards. Not to try to get the ball to just one guy.
But enough said, lets get to some number crunching. Here are the stats of Terrell Owens over his entire career. Being a seasoned veteran I thought it only fair that people see what he did for each one of the three teams he has played for. So have a look at these stats per season and per game:
|
Terrell Owens Career Averages |
||||||||
|
REC/sea |
REC/gm |
YD/rec |
YD/gm |
TD/sea |
TD/gm |
1D/Sea |
1D/gm |
|
|
Career |
73.2 |
5 |
14.8 |
74.7 |
10.7 |
0.7 |
3.5 |
50.9 |
|
Niners |
74 |
4.9 |
14.5 |
70.8 |
10.1 |
0.7 |
3.4 |
51.3 |
|
62 |
5.9 |
15.8 |
93.5 |
10 |
1 |
41.5 |
4 |
|
|
78.3 |
5 |
15.3 |
76.3 |
12.7 |
0.8 |
56.3 |
3.6 |
|
Now, lets have a look at the stats that Roy Williams has to offer over his 5 year career.
|
Roy Williams Career Averages |
|||||||
|
REC/sea |
REC/gm |
YD/rec |
YD/gm |
TD/sea |
TD/gm |
1D/Sea |
1D/gm |
|
56.2 |
4 |
14.5 |
58.3 |
6 |
0.4 |
38.2 |
2.7 |
Now, here is where the fair contrast/comparison comes into play. Being that Roy Williams is still a fairly young player, lets compare his numbers so far against the numbers of T.O. at the beginning of his career. I also thought it only fair that since T.O. never underwent a midseason trade that we only take a look at the first four years of their careers to not give an unfair advantage to anyone. Now take a look here and you just may be surprised at the similarity of the numbers.
|
Williams vs. Owens (1st four seasons) |
||||||||
|
|
REC/sea |
REC/gm |
YD/rec |
YD/gm |
TD/sea |
TD/gm |
1D/Sea |
1D/gm |
|
Owens |
55.5 |
3.6 |
14.9 |
53.3 |
7.5 |
0.5 |
39.8 |
2.6 |
|
Williams |
61.3 |
4.5 |
14.9 |
66.4 |
7 |
0.5 |
41.3 |
3 |
I was not quite so surprised when I contrasted the numbers. Roy Williams is good, he is just a different wide receiver and hey, he is still learning in this league. He will also still be in the league long after T.O. retires. He also now has a legitimate quarterback to throw him the ball. Now, if he can have a 1,300+ yard season with John Kitna, he can definitely have one with Romo.
In the end though, this is all moot because as Steelers coach Mike Tomlin said to his players, "PUT IT ON TAPE". So all we can do is wait for the season to begin and see how Roy Williams does on the field and puts these stats on tape wearing the Star. Again, I am not trying to convince you that Roy Williams is just as good as Terrell Owens, but I look to suppress the concern for our wideouts. You will do well to remember that we had a 13 - 3 season with T.O. and missing Terry Glenn for the entire season and Patrick Crayton as the "No. 2" during the season. And that was before we had 6' 6" 265 lbs. TE Martellus Bennett along with a three prong halfback attack in Marion "The Barbarian" Barber, Felix "The Cat" Jones and Tashard Choice. Also known as Smash, Dash and Tash. As you can see, there are plenty of people to pick up the slack for the loss of Terrell Owens. Our defense is also much more improved over our 2007 defense as far as talent, even though we were second in total interceptions, trailing only the Chargers in that department.
So, just wait for the season to start and look for execution, because we certainly have the weapons/tools to do so. They may be just numbers here above and a team is more than just one man. Roy is not our No. 1 yet. When he puts it on tape and proves that he is, that is when he will be officially merited that label. The only question I have before I finish is of all of you that laughed when you saw the title of this point and laughed sarcastically saying "Oh, this should be good!" , who of you is laughing now at the comparison? And for all of you Cowboys fans, just remember 911, Romo to Willliams.
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flawed logic
Wish it were true however TO did not come in as the number 1 guy since Jerry Rice was there; I’m sure that affected his production his first 4 years.
by angie'sdad on Sep 10, 2009 6:26 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
YPC
yards per catch is what you look at in this case because it doesn’t matter if you are a 1 2 3 4 or 5. If that is a high number it proves that you got some skill.
Tony Romo off in dat hole, Watch roll and watch him throw, Watch him lead dem cowboys to the super bowl, now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys!
by ProBowlFactory on Sep 10, 2009 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
THats exactly what I was going to post when I saw this
Roy was the number one the entire time
by rioplayer7 on Sep 11, 2009 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jerry Rice was there obviously and another thing to look at would be how many times each person was thrown at I bet Roy was targeted a whole lot more
by rioplayer7 on Sep 11, 2009 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not a valid arguement
As you can see these are averages and Roy only averaged 6 more catches per season in front of T.O. The point is Roy did just as much, if not more with just as many opportunities as T.O. did when he was just starting off in the league. Numbers don’t lie, and plus T.O. even admits that he benefited from the double teams on Jerry Rice, so that wasn’t a hindrance, it HELPED AND INCREASED Owens’ numbers.
Tony Romo off in dat hole, Watch roll and watch him throw, Watch him lead dem cowboys to the super bowl, now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys!
by ProBowlFactory on Sep 11, 2009 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am asking to see how many times they were thrown at give me those numbers
by rioplayer7 on Sep 11, 2009 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here you go
I’ll preface this with a quote from PBF that you need to keep in mind when comparing the ‘Thrown At’ numbers:
And not only that but [T.O.] has had much better quarterbacks throwing to him and played for much better teams than Roy Williams. When was the last time the Lions did something special?
T.O. had Steve Young in three consecutive Pro Bowl seasons, and one year of Jeff Garcia, R.W. had Joey Harrington and Jon Kitna for two years each.
………..T.O. (96-99)…..R.W. (04-07)
…………..TA….Rec…….TA…..Rec
Year 1……57….35……..118….54
Year 2….103…..60………94….45
Year 3….104…..67……..151….82
Year 4……98….60……..105….64
TA numbers from footballoutsiders.com
by One.Cool.Customer on Sep 11, 2009 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
RW is around 50%?
Wonder what percentage of each of those balls was catchable?
by bad knees on Sep 11, 2009 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thats why you look for the number of drops
Surprisingly NFL.com didn’t provide that stat. But we all know that T.O. had 10+ drops a season.
Tony Romo off in dat hole, Watch roll and watch him throw, Watch him lead dem cowboys to the super bowl, now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys!
by ProBowlFactory on Sep 11, 2009 7:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Drops is not an official stat.
Because it’s in the eye of the beholder. What you call a bad pass, I might call a drop, and vice versa.
by Baked Potato Soup on Sep 12, 2009 1:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There you go do I even have to explain myself
The numbers are only comparable because Roy was thrown too a lot more often
by rioplayer7 on Sep 12, 2009 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rice was, believe it or not, on the down side of his SF career
during T.O.‘s formative years with the 49ers. Even Rice had 108 catches in 1996, he didn’t even average 12 yards a catch, he missed 14 games in 1997, and was second to Ownes on the team in 1998. And Rice’s 1999-00 seasons were, by his standards, utterly mediocre.
by DavidH22 on Sep 12, 2009 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This years prediction on RW combined stats playing the Eagles.
Im mean, nasty, and tired. I eat concertina wire and piss napalm, and I can put a round through a flea's ass at 200 meters. So you go and hump someone else's leg mutt face, before i push yours in. Gunnery SGT Tom Highway
by squidlo97 on Sep 10, 2009 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha...
…and those would be good numbers, but nothing that would make headlines. That’s how bad he was last year.
Bye, Big Stew and JJ :(
by Bye, Dawk :( on Sep 10, 2009 7:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
191,981
How many times Bye, Dawk has posted 19-198-1 on BTB.
The season begins in 3...2...Now!
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by Aaron Novinger on Sep 11, 2009 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yea i don't like the logic much either
Roy WIlliams has passed the phase of a “learning wr” in todays league. Hes learning in that hes getting used to our offense, but hes probably about as good a route runner/catcher as he’ll ever be. Honestly, its hard to look at stats and say Roy is a better receiver or a good replacement.
My argument would be this: over the last 7 weeks, excluding the SF game (the only team dumb enough not to press TO):
Week 11 – Barber, Witten and WIlliams had practically the same production as him, and Bennet actually got the td.
Week 13 – witten outgains him
Week 14-Choice and Witten far outgain him.
Week 15-Choice, Witten, Crayton outgain him
Week 16-Witten outgains him, Crayton has similar performance
I’m not sure Week 17 even matters given that the second half of that football game was 1 big mistake, but To outgained everyone.
What about this says hes a #1 wr. Witten pretty clearly outperformed him over these games. Crayton outperformed him a couple times. And RW was playing hurt. I don’ think TO was the big threat some people think he was towards the end of the year. I don’t think RW has to do too much to replace that kind of production, when you consider how much TO struggled with press coverage.
by foyesboys on Sep 10, 2009 6:51 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Moot point
I only care about Roy Williams. TO is gone
by StillHateTheGiants on Sep 10, 2009 7:04 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I realize
I realize that no matter what Roy does, even with 1400 yard and 17 touchdowns, there will still be some people making excuses or saying that T.O. could have done more. Now I hate bringing this up because T.O. is long gone but obviously there are many out there and many so called “experts” that still talk about him and attach him to Dallas. So I just hope this helps to shut all of you up about it!
Tony Romo off in dat hole, Watch roll and watch him throw, Watch him lead dem cowboys to the super bowl, now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys!
by ProBowlFactory on Sep 10, 2009 7:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Roy Williams won't be the focus of this offense
TO clearly was the focus when he was here.
So I don’t expect Roy to put up TO-like numbers.
He just needs to be a solid go to WR and force double coverage by the opposing defense to open up the field for the other guys.
But I agree with your last 2 sentences. TO is gone, fans need to move on, if anyone hasn’t by now.
Training Camp '09 = Mega Thunder Dome....80 men enter, 53 men leave.
by APerfectStar on Sep 10, 2009 9:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
and force double coverage
+1 And if teams single cover him they will pay, great point.
by ziggy19 on Sep 12, 2009 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We lost the seasoned Owens, not year 4 Owens.
This comparison doesn’t even make sense, since the guy that was on our team, the one that Williams is replacing, was the experienced vet that put up the big numbers, not the young version.
by Baked Potato Soup on Sep 10, 2009 11:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes, very true
But the thing is that comparing Roy to T.O. is the same as comparing Hakeem Nicks, Michael Crabtree or Darius Heyward-Bey to Chad Ochocinco. One has 8 years more of NFL experience than the other. Same with Roy and T.O. So you have to compare the younger version because it isn’t what Roy has done that people are worried about, it is what he will be able to do or what he can become. And as you can see, IF, and that is a big IF, the first 4 years of their careers are any indicator, then Roy will be a better receiver than T.O. But that is not anything anyone can predict. That is all up to Roy and Romo. and if you take a look at the stats. Year 5 for Owens was his first big season having around 1,400 yards or so If i’m not mistaken.
Tony Romo off in dat hole, Watch roll and watch him throw, Watch him lead dem cowboys to the super bowl, now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys!
by ProBowlFactory on Sep 11, 2009 12:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not at al
Comparing TO’s career stats to Roy’s career stats is the same thing as comparing the rookies to Chad Johnson.
Roy has had 6 years in this league. From a physical and mental standpoint, hes as mature a hes gonna get. What you don’t see in the stats is that Roy is playing on a far better offense now than in detroit and likewise should produce more.
by foyesboys on Sep 11, 2009 2:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+37
It isnt a fair comparison at all.
Beuhler: "I'm not a kicker, I am a kicker/ Special Teams player."
by aussie_cowboy on Sep 11, 2009 7:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What the stats also don't show
What T.O. did during his first 5 games in Dallas. Yeah, the ones that Romo DIDN’T play. How many touchdowns did he have there? 1 over five games. Don’t believe me, take a look. He wasn’t productive until he had Romo there or some other DECENT quarterback. Roy hasn’t had that until now. But, have to wait for him to put it on tape. I’m just saying that Quarterbacks make receivers that much better, and I think the numbers prove that Roy can do well, NOT REPLACE T.O., just do what they need him to.
Tony Romo off in dat hole, Watch roll and watch him throw, Watch him lead dem cowboys to the super bowl, now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys!
by ProBowlFactory on Sep 11, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm...
Maybe all the fun in this aerial attack has more to do with #9 rather than the hands who represent the other ends of the throws.
The season begins in 3...2...Now!
http://twitter.com/BloggingTheBoys
by Aaron Novinger on Sep 11, 2009 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its not a bad point
I think TO had rather pedestrian years in 2007 to 2009. His stats may look nice but he really didn’t take over key games like a great receiver should. Thats evident form his december playign in 2007 and 2009. In 2007, a long list of average cbs shut him down in key games. In 2008, he was awesome, but that happened to be theyear our oline gave Romo all day to throw every single play.
So yea, I think its a legitimate question as to whether Romo’s ability to buy extra time gave TO a chance to break through that press coverage he struggled so much with at times. And I don’t thinkits coincidence that the onyl year he made keys plays in the big games happened to be when our oline gave Romo the most time.
by foyesboys on Sep 11, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
1st time post, and I figured this is as good a subject as any to start with.
I have been a Cowboy’s fan since I saw my 1st Cowboy game, the ’70 SB where they lost to Baltimore. I have seen the very good times, all 5 SB victories, and the bad, 1-13 (yuck).
When TO signed with the Boys, I was distraught. Did’nt like him nor his attitude. But he did play well for us, and was fairly well behaved. But he was not, and never will be in my mind a team player.
Stats are easy to use to make just about any case you want to, as this thread is a case in point. ProBowlFactory uses stats to make a pro-RW case and Baked Potato Soup uses the same stats to counter the arguement.
There are however many things that stats alone do not show – for example, how many of Romo’s INTs were because TO didn’t run the right route or hustle because he was pouting. I saw him do this at least twice last year. Before you explode on me, I am not blaming all of Romo’s INTs or bad plays on TO. But with any player you take the good and the bad. TO had a very good upside, but a very bad downside.
How will RW respond? Only time will tell, but whether he can be “as valuable” as TO, we will have to wait and see.
You notice I said “as valuable” as TO. IMHO in order to be as valuable, or maybe even more valuable, RW does not have to replicate his #s.
If he can provide stability, 1st downs and keep the other teams from cheating constantly to the box and if he can provide the intangibles like route running, sportsmanship and so forth, he could even surpass TO’s value.
I also agree with Foyesboys that last year, particularly after mid-year, TO didn’t add near as much value as previously.
I for one will not miss his scintillating moments because I will not miss his embarrassing ones. It is too bad that he has that much talent and so little insight into how to handle it.
Anyway, just my 2 cents worth, and let’s have a great year.
by dd_cowboyfan on Sep 11, 2009 12:37 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
What needs to happen
Each of the three receivers and the offense as a whole needs to produce more to satisfy the critics. Yes, Roy does not need to and will never replace TO in the eyes of critics because they will always make excuses that TO could do it better. However if everyone produces more, then peopl will see that TO’s absence is a good thing because now ALL of the playmakers get to share the load and the team can operates as a cohesive unit. And if THAT happens, then people will say HMMM, maybe no TO actually WAS a smart move becuase they certainly weren’t able to do that with him there.
Tony Romo off in dat hole, Watch roll and watch him throw, Watch him lead dem cowboys to the super bowl, now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys!
by ProBowlFactory on Sep 11, 2009 12:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Stability" is key, I agree dd_
If Roy can stay healthy and be that guy who goes up to grab those high throws, or becomes a first-down machine, while mixing in a great run-and-catch here or there, then that’s all the team needs.
Other aspects of the offense can be used to get the defense’s attention rather than just some speed on the outside.
The season begins in 3...2...Now!
http://twitter.com/BloggingTheBoys
by Aaron Novinger on Sep 11, 2009 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point
one thing that these stats don’t show either is that Roy didn’t play in as many games as Owens. Most likely he was hurt more, but when he is in he has played well.
Tony Romo off in dat hole, Watch roll and watch him throw, Watch him lead dem cowboys to the super bowl, now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys!
by ProBowlFactory on Sep 11, 2009 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They also don't show that Roy got to learn the game from a HOF WR.
The season begins in 3...2...Now!
http://twitter.com/BloggingTheBoys
by Aaron Novinger on Sep 11, 2009 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He knows exactly what he is doing
It is too bad that he has that much talent and so little insight into how to handle it.
He has marketed himself into every single sports persons living room every single day. The abbreviation T.O. comes out at least a 1,000 times a day on this site and you can not go through Sportscenter without hearing about him at least once. T.O. knows exactly what he is doing he has created a market for himself outside of football. People are interested in him because of his attitude. I think he is simply creating a character and doing an extremely good job at it. We will be seeing T.O. on tv years after his playing days, and I for one respect his business savy.
by rioplayer7 on Sep 11, 2009 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Was the suicide attempt part of that business savvy?
Bye, Big Stew and JJ :(
by Bye, Dawk :( on Sep 11, 2009 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
You never know. When have we ever seen a player’s publicist in a press conference?
The season begins in 3...2...Now!
http://twitter.com/BloggingTheBoys
by Aaron Novinger on Sep 11, 2009 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
“$25 million reasons”
Bye, Big Stew and JJ :(
by Bye, Dawk :( on Sep 11, 2009 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I find it hard to joke about that
even with it being TO.
by foyesboys on Sep 11, 2009 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a grey area...
Had somebody raped TO, or beaten him, or did him harm in some way, then I’d leave it alone. But in this case, it’s something he inflicted on himself, so personally, I feel it’s fair game. Add in the fact that I’m still very bitter that he almost single-handedly ruined a very promising 2005 season, and that pushes it over the edge.
Bye, Big Stew and JJ :(
by Bye, Dawk :( on Sep 11, 2009 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you
make a lot of sense. I remember the guy when he was Terrell Owens. T.O. has become a brand name. Anyone want to bet he won’t be hired immediately by ESPN upon his retirement? Owens took the Muhammad Ali approach to the NFL. You can love me or hate me but you pay to watch me. I also notice that T.O. takes a very low profile in his social life. He doesn’t smoke, drink, do drugs, nor is considered a party animal. No league suspensions. Say what you will but if Rio is right, the guy has been kind of smart in a crazy kind of way.
by jevans1729 on Sep 11, 2009 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really do believe he does it because it will and has helped him in the long run
Say what you will, but he can do whatever he wants to when he is done with football
by rioplayer7 on Sep 12, 2009 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Production vs. Efficiency
In this age of fantasy football, we evalute WRs by their production numbers, e.g. Yds, Recs and TDs. What we often overlook is how efficient they are in generating those numbers.
In 2008, 27 Wide Receivers in the NFL posted more than 900 yards. Here’s how T.O.s production and efficiency breaks down in this elite group:
Production:
No. 5: TDs (10).
No. 12: Yards (1.052)
No. 23: Receptions (69)
Pretty impressive numbers for an aging WR, considering that he seems to have produced more TDs and Yards on fewer receptions relative to his WR peer group. And looking only at these numbers, the question of how T.O.s production will be replaced is a fair one.
Efficiency
No. 27: Reception efficiency (49%). T.O. was targeted 140 times, and turned 69 of those balls into receptions, dead last among all top WRs. By the way, Marion Barber (52 of 61, 85.2%), Witten (81 of 121, 67%) and Crayton (39 of 68, 56%) were all more efficient than T.O.
No. 24: Dropped balls (7.1%). T.O. dropped 10 balls. Only Braylon Edwards, Dwayne Bowe and Brandon Marshall (16, 13 & 12) dropped more balls. Of the 140 balls thrown his way, T.O. dropped 7.1%.
No. 24: Interceptions (6.5%). 9 passes thrown his way resulted in interceptions (Only Andre Johnson with 11 had more). In % of passes thrown his way, that’s 6.5%. To me at least, that is a clear sign that too many balls were ‘forced’ his way.
In summary, T.O. unquestionably produced some nice numbers, but was highly inefficient in producing those numbers. Now, will Roy Williams reach T.O.s production numbers? Probably not. But I’m pretty sure he’ll be more efficient in generating whatever his production numbers turn out to be.
Looking at the efficiency numbers above, for me the question of how T.O.s production will be replaced is beginning to sound a little silly.
Just imagine how much more efficient our whole offense could be if T.O.s 140 passes are distributed among our many targets with a much higher efficency rate ….
by One.Cool.Customer on Sep 11, 2009 4:06 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Did you know
Every receiver, with the exception of Witten averages about 1 touchdown for every 100 yards? T.O. had 15 with 1,300 yards in 2007. Austin had 3 TD with a little under 300 yards last season. So If that is your argument then every receiver in dallas minus witten was just as “EFFICIENT” as T.O.
Tony Romo off in dat hole, Watch roll and watch him throw, Watch him lead dem cowboys to the super bowl, now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys!
by ProBowlFactory on Sep 11, 2009 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No offense PBF, but I have to disagree with your numbers
In 2008, the top 27 WRs combined for 30.243 yards and 184 TDs. That averages to 6.1 TDs per 1000 yards. Randy Moss had the highest rate with 10.9 (1.008 Yds, 11 Tds), DeSean Jackson the lowest with 2.2 (912 Yds, 2 TDs).
R² for the Yds/TD ratio of all 27 WRs is 0.36, which means there is only a very low correlation between Yards and TDs for this group of WRs.
My point simply was that in 2008, T.O. caught less of the passes thrown his way than any other top WR.
by One.Cool.Customer on Sep 11, 2009 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was talking about Romo and Romo ONLY.
I don’t remember mentioning anyone outside of Dallas or the Cowboys so why this point is made is puzzling.
Tony Romo off in dat hole, Watch roll and watch him throw, Watch him lead dem cowboys to the super bowl, now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys!
by ProBowlFactory on Sep 11, 2009 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
half those passes sucked...this whole numbers game is a joke..
by My_2_Cents on Sep 12, 2009 5:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah cause those other 26 WRs had better QBs who threw perfect passes.
Im mean, nasty, and tired. I eat concertina wire and piss napalm, and I can put a round through a flea's ass at 200 meters. So you go and hump someone else's leg mutt face, before i push yours in. Gunnery SGT Tom Highway
by squidlo97 on Sep 12, 2009 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey PBF, You playing dueling stats with the wrong guy.
Im mean, nasty, and tired. I eat concertina wire and piss napalm, and I can put a round through a flea's ass at 200 meters. So you go and hump someone else's leg mutt face, before i push yours in. Gunnery SGT Tom Highway
by squidlo97 on Sep 11, 2009 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be honest...
…I’m really tired of all this speculation. I just want too see it on the football field now. Can Roy run block as well as TO down the field? We’ll see. Can Roy produce enough in the passing game to help the Cowboy offense flourish? We’ll see. For now it’s all just speculation and I for one am glad the guessing season is nearly over.
The NFC East has won 11 Super Bowls; oddly none of those have come courtesy of the Eagles.
by gee-roj on Sep 11, 2009 7:41 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Can Roy run block as well as TO down the field? We’ll see.
Roy won’t have to try real hard to be much better… I’m just saying…
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
by Chandus on Sep 11, 2009 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly what I said at the end
Put it on tape, that is the important thing. Just trying to ease the transition for some that are still having trouble letting go of what is not here anymore.
Tony Romo off in dat hole, Watch roll and watch him throw, Watch him lead dem cowboys to the super bowl, now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys!
by ProBowlFactory on Sep 11, 2009 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The way I look at it is Jerry Jones went out and gave the team a long-term option at WR.
What if he did not make the trade and kept TO?
- We would all be so sick of hearing about the chemistry on offense by now that half of us would be envious of the way other teams get along.
- We would be hoping that our 36-year-old #1 WR could just get over that 1,000 yard hump so that we can try to draft his replacement in 2010 (albeit, that’s looking to be a decent year for wideouts). Obviously, TO is in great shape, but he’s already hit that point of diminishing returns. As WiiFit says, “running endurance and stride length deteriorate with age”.
- The 1st and 3rd we gave up for Roy would have been used on some rookie who won’t start or see the field much this season. Less $$$ to re-sign Ware.
- We would all have had to watch every episode of TO’s reality show and gagged while he takes the 4th and Long winner “under his wings”.
- TO would be calling Cowboys Stadium “my home”, instead of “our home”. He would also monopolize camera-face time in all of T.Choice’s locker room vids. Can you imagine never getting to see Cory Proctor’s “Buffalo Bill”?
- All arguments about Tony Romo’s growth as a player would be attributed to how he “handles” TO another year.
- BTBers would be as split all season as the Cowboys’ locker room would be reported to be.
There are some great points in PBF’s post. When the Colts let Edge go and eventually drafted Addai, sure people were sad that the backfield would be grill-less; but, they got some cool, youthful dreads instead.
And another thing, with all the stupid Emmitt talk and the horsesh!# that comes out of Marshall Faulk and Jamie Dukes’ mouths, I think even us bloggers can stand to reason that our opinion is just as good as theirs. Ex-players have biases built in from their playing days of yesterlore—adding onto that a whole new realm of how they want their media voice projected.
So, when they talk about how the Cowboys lost an explosiveness on offense when they cut TO, they are basing that on his last few years, not projecting how the guy will be for the future of this team.
This is a year Mr. Jones is trying to put together a team that will last and grow into success. Let us rejoice!
Now…back to reruns of Charmed.
The season begins in 3...2...Now!
http://twitter.com/BloggingTheBoys
by Aaron Novinger on Sep 11, 2009 10:06 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Mike Mayock
I love this guy, he brought it up in the discussions and IS NOT a former cowboy or cowboy fan. Everyone is picking the Eagles or Giants to win the division but they constantly talk about the losses both teams have sustained and how they will be able to get through them. Then Mike Mayock comes in and says “Don’t forget about Dallas, we aren’t talking about them as much and they are flying under the radar a little bit now but don’t forget about them. A lot of potential in that team.”
Tony Romo off in dat hole, Watch roll and watch him throw, Watch him lead dem cowboys to the super bowl, now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys!
by ProBowlFactory on Sep 11, 2009 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very good post!!
Those are several well thought out points and I dont think they are disputable.
I see things like this, TO helped make Romo his 1st year. TO was still at the top of his game and it gave a green QB a ton of confidence and room to make mistakes without being under the microscope.
2nd year I see2 guys that fed off of each other and elevated each others game. They made each other better. Problem is, TO was still at the top of his game but the car was now pointing down. Romo is pointing up.
3rd year It seems that Romo made Owens. Problem is he spent to much time trying and upset the balance of the O. Throwing to a guy and having him deliver 75% of the time is OK. Having the same guy deliver at 60-65% and then increasing his chances but get no better percentage of deliveries upsets the balance of the offense.
The talking heads are saying how much Romo will miss TO. How his production will drop. Hogwash!! TO is about to see how much Romo meant to him. That balance of power shifted last year and they are to caught up in the last 3 years combined.
Romo might or might not increase his yardage but it will be based on the type of offense we run(better balance) and not the lack of TO.
I also see Wittens numbers possible dropping. Not from him diminishing but between Hurd, Austin, Crayton, Felix and Bennett(maybe Ogletree), these guys might gobble up more than just TOs catches. they could bite into some of Wittens too. I see this as a good thing for us.
Im mean, nasty, and tired. I eat concertina wire and piss napalm, and I can put a round through a flea's ass at 200 meters. So you go and hump someone else's leg mutt face, before i push yours in. Gunnery SGT Tom Highway
by squidlo97 on Sep 11, 2009 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Roy Williams as well.
Im mean, nasty, and tired. I eat concertina wire and piss napalm, and I can put a round through a flea's ass at 200 meters. So you go and hump someone else's leg mutt face, before i push yours in. Gunnery SGT Tom Highway
by squidlo97 on Sep 11, 2009 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, I didnt read OCCs post before doing this one.
Having a guy deliver 50% and trying to fix that by throwing more balls to him leads to……….9-7 and home for the playoffs.
Im mean, nasty, and tired. I eat concertina wire and piss napalm, and I can put a round through a flea's ass at 200 meters. So you go and hump someone else's leg mutt face, before i push yours in. Gunnery SGT Tom Highway
by squidlo97 on Sep 11, 2009 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah except that is with a worse quarterback
So you need to take a look at how many of those balls were dropped, which is a stat I haven’t been able to find yet. But Owens had a Pro Bowl Quarterback throwing to him when he started VS Williams having a quarterback each of his first 4 years that never exceeded a 58 qb rating the first 2 years (harrington) and a 81 qb rating the next two years (Kitna). I think it might make a little bit of a difference if you have a quarterback that knows how to throw and get you the ball.
Tony Romo off in dat hole, Watch roll and watch him throw, Watch him lead dem cowboys to the super bowl, now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys!
by ProBowlFactory on Sep 11, 2009 8:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly which shows me that TO is/was in decline.
I think Romo and RW will be fine. I think we will be introuble if RW goes down for any length of time. Not like last year, but enough to push us below Giants and Eagles.
Im mean, nasty, and tired. I eat concertina wire and piss napalm, and I can put a round through a flea's ass at 200 meters. So you go and hump someone else's leg mutt face, before i push yours in. Gunnery SGT Tom Highway
by squidlo97 on Sep 12, 2009 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yea
I pretty much agree on everything here. I can’t say for sure just how much impact positive or negative TO had on the locker room, because I’m not there. From a media standpoint, we’re no longer going to have to deal with such ridiculous questions all the time.
But personally, as a fan, I find this team much easier to root for than last years. Though I loved cheering for him (lets be honest, TO is EXCITING), I always felt like he was a mercenary – an old vet whose time was running out, and who you could just tell we were gonna cut sooner or later. Same with Pacman and Tank (being mercenaries).
by foyesboys on Sep 12, 2009 1:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm
seriously just ready for RW to get on the field and try to prove all the haters wrong. Time for talking is over. Time to do it on the field.
Sugar ... water .... and, of course, purple.
by what_the_crap on Sep 11, 2009 10:29 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
911
Thats all I have to say
Tony Romo off in dat hole, Watch roll and watch him throw, Watch him lead dem cowboys to the super bowl, now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys!
by ProBowlFactory on Sep 11, 2009 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
" This is 911, what is your emergency?"
by bad knees on Sep 11, 2009 6:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Tony Romo and Roy Williams are lighting up our defense
Tony Romo off in dat hole, Watch roll and watch him throw, Watch him lead dem cowboys to the super bowl, now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys!
by ProBowlFactory on Sep 11, 2009 8:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"It is the exact same thing as putting up Chad Ochocinco against rookie Michael Crabtree"
Wow, man is that a reach!!!! Roy Williams has played in the NFL for 5 years. Michael Crabtree hasn’t even played a game yet. What are you saying??!! Roy Williams doesn’t get to run from his past just like everybody else. I don’t care who was playing QB or what team he was on his stats are his. The fact is that Williams has averaged 800 yds. and 6 tds. a year in his career. Hopefully that will improve but the drop off from Owens’ 1,082 yds and 10 tds. a year is significant. Yes WR on the Cowboys this year is a concern until PROVEN otherwise.
by jevans1729 on Sep 12, 2009 9:16 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree.
If we compare RW numbers to TOs past numbers. I betcha RW out performs TOs numbers this year. That is part of the aurgument.
We shouldnt settle with RW not producing closer to TOs past numbers. We want the best and want to be the best and expectations should be high.
Im mean, nasty, and tired. I eat concertina wire and piss napalm, and I can put a round through a flea's ass at 200 meters. So you go and hump someone else's leg mutt face, before i push yours in. Gunnery SGT Tom Highway
by squidlo97 on Sep 12, 2009 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
T.O. just starting his decline
He was still peaking in his career lately and Roy is still Learning. Experience doesn’t always come before talent, but Roy still has a lot to learn, especially since now he will be getting better opportunities with better thrown balls. Talent is Talent, but experience takes time. That Is why I make the comparison like I did because the difference in experience as far as years go is the same between the two comparisons.
Tony Romo off in dat hole, Watch roll and watch him throw, Watch him lead dem cowboys to the super bowl, now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys!
by ProBowlFactory on Sep 12, 2009 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He started his decline last year. I dont think you ever quit learning but
to say RW has aalot of learning left isnt something I believe. The only big light left to come on is the get your ass in the best possible shape before the season starts. He did just that this past offseason. I hope it pays off in a major way.
Im mean, nasty, and tired. I eat concertina wire and piss napalm, and I can put a round through a flea's ass at 200 meters. So you go and hump someone else's leg mutt face, before i push yours in. Gunnery SGT Tom Highway
by squidlo97 on Sep 12, 2009 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just a side note
Anyone care to take a look at the 3 games that Romo was out last season?
T.O. had 12 receptions, 100 yards and 1 TD over three games.
I am just going to say that I disagree that T.O. was the most productive wide reciever in football. Romo to T.O. was the most productive COMBINATION in football, Romo here proving to be the key to it over Owens.
Tony Romo off in dat hole, Watch roll and watch him throw, Watch him lead dem cowboys to the super bowl, now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys!
by ProBowlFactory on Sep 12, 2009 12:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Thats what i was trying to say earlier.
It might have been TO the main component the 1st year but it was Romo the main component in the last year.
If he was the main reason Romo was good then by that logic Romos game will nose dive and Trent Edwards is headed for the pro bowl.
NOT!
Im mean, nasty, and tired. I eat concertina wire and piss napalm, and I can put a round through a flea's ass at 200 meters. So you go and hump someone else's leg mutt face, before i push yours in. Gunnery SGT Tom Highway
by squidlo97 on Sep 12, 2009 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, that's not entirely fair.
Brad Johnson’s arm was so shot I don’t believe he belonged in pro football at; Arena League, CFL; much less an NFL back-up.
by MadMick on Sep 12, 2009 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your analysis just
goes to prove the old adage that “figures lie and liars figure.” By contrast, I could make the argument that despite Romo being out for three games, Owens still caught 10 td passes and gained over 1000 receving yards which is what he has averaged over his career. I don’t get the argument that “Romo is the key to it over Owens.” How can that be when Owens was averaging the same numbers when Romo was playing college ball? Owens has done what he has done over his career and has been fairly consistent about it regardless of who was the quaterback.
If everyone needs to have “a guy” to slap around about last year Jerry gave you one in Owens. However, consider the fact that Cowboys lost seven games last year. In those seven losses, they gave up 30 points or more 5 times and 25 or more 6 times. They gave up 37 points to Philly but were lucky enough to pull that one out. I contend that it didn’t make any difference about Owens, Romo, Witten, etc. If you give up 30 points in the NFL, you will probably lose that game and that goes for any NFL team.
by jevans1729 on Sep 12, 2009 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im lost,
My veiw is TO has been the man but is slipping. Romo is rising. I think Romo last year was more responsible for TO tha n TO was responsible for Owens. Prior to that it was Owens.
Having said that, your right, 30 point given up wont get it done.
Im mean, nasty, and tired. I eat concertina wire and piss napalm, and I can put a round through a flea's ass at 200 meters. So you go and hump someone else's leg mutt face, before i push yours in. Gunnery SGT Tom Highway
by squidlo97 on Sep 12, 2009 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The reason it is Romo over T.O.
Because T.O. has never had a BAD QB throwing the ball to him, except Bledsoe when he was at the end of his rope. Roy hasn’t been so lucky until now.
Tony Romo off in dat hole, Watch roll and watch him throw, Watch him lead dem cowboys to the super bowl, now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys!
by ProBowlFactory on Sep 12, 2009 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Roy is more than capable of being a 1000 yrd receiver
I’m predicting he’ll be somewhere around 1,100 yards and 8 TD’s and a max value somewhere around 1,300 and 12 TD’s. I don’t think he reaches that though since there’s just too many people contributing this season. I for one have never been worried about Roy but I can see why people would be.
by sublimezg on Sep 12, 2009 4:51 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Well just a prediction
But as I said earlier, it seems pretty consistent with Romo at the helm that all Cowboys receivers, except Witten, average a TD every 1000 yards. So if that is true then if Roy gets over 1000 yds then most likely he will have 10 TDs or maybe more.
Tony Romo off in dat hole, Watch roll and watch him throw, Watch him lead dem cowboys to the super bowl, now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys!
by ProBowlFactory on Sep 12, 2009 6:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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