Cowboys Cleaning Up in the Bargain Basement
by Rafael Vela on Sep 2, 2009 5:03 PM CDT
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PrintDuring much of the first half last Saturday, the first team Cowboys offense lined up with a skill position set that could challenge for the All-Remainders title. The Cowboys moved the ball and controlled the clock with:
- QB -- Tony Romo -- undrafted free agent
- RB -- Marion Barber -- 4th round
- TE -- Jason Witten -- 3rd round
- WR -- Patrick Crayton -- 7th rounder
- WR -- Miles Austin -- undrafted free agent
- WR -- Kevin Ogletree -- undrafted free agent
That's a lot of bang for not much buck. Only Witten cost what used to be called a "first day pick."
Let's go a little deeper, and break down each offensive position by draft status. The skill positions boast some of the Cowboys scouting staff's best finds the past decade.
Quarterback
- Romo -- UFA
- Kitna -- UFA
- McGee -- 4th round
Romo is one of the decade's great bargains. Kitna was a UFA in the '90s and the Cowboys love McGee, who will be another big value if he pans out.
Running Backs & Fullbacks
- Barber -- 4th
- Jones -- 1st
- Choice -- 4th
- Anderson -- 6th
The Cowboys know how to scout running backs. If they could trade one of the 4th rounders for a high pick or a quality starter in the future (this is purely hypothetical folks) I think they would do it, because the organization has confidence it can find another one.
Wide Receivers
- Williams -- 1st
- Crayton -- 7th
- Austin --UFA
- Hurd -- UFA
- Ogletree -- UFA
Dallas has made the most from the least. They paid a mint to get Williams, but everybody else has been cheap,at least in draft investments. And lets not forget that T.O. cost only money as a free agent and Terry Glenn was swiped from Green Bay for a 6th rounder.
Tight Ends
- Witten -- 3rd
- Bennett -- 2nd
- Phillips -- 6th
The Cowboys like using 2nd and 3rd rounders on tight ends, and their record is pretty good. Even their "miss," Anthony Fasano, produces for the Dolphins. If you're going to use high picks on a position, you better hit, and Dallas has hit.
That's been true of all their 1st round skill position guys. Felix Jones looks like a quality player. Williams looks ready to rebound, if he can banish the bruise bug.
The happy thoughts on offense end, unfortunately, with the skill positions. You won't see an offensive lineman here, because the team hasn't hit big with one since Andre Gurode in '02. The other names resemble a junkyard of Pontiac Aztecs and Cadillac Cateras, hulking, rusting, big-ticket failures.
How can a team that can make stars out of street free agents be so lousy at finding big guys to give them interference? I'm sure the Cowboys ask themselves that question nearly every day.
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doesn't matter if I have any thing of relevance to add, right!
Never stoped me before.
correct
that makes the bargain argument stronger.
How can a team that can make stars out of street free agents be so lousy at finding big guys to give them interference?
All the more reason to use one of the 4th round RB’s or UFA WR’s to acquire some OL help
by StillHateTheGiants on Sep 2, 2009 5:24 PM CDT reply actions
All the more reason to use high draft picks
on big guys, since the skill positions have been found lower down.
"Everybody wants something but nobody wants to pay the price" - Michael Irvin
+1
That is a great thought, the only reason we don’t do that is for the simple reason that we spend those picks on defense typically. Next year we HAVE to restock our Oline, even if Preston is good, Free takes command of the LT position, Brewster comes back and everything looks sunny, we still need to invest in some big men, then defense
"We play to win the game" - Herm Edwards
by nicholas.rodriguez on Sep 2, 2009 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions
wish I had an answer for the O line question.
For the most part you have to be drafting in the front half of the draft to grab a top of the line talent at OT now days, unless you get that surprise pick or a very good developmental guy; Or, I guess you could package a deal on draft day.
Free after 3 years, of coaching and training seems to be at the stage were he might be able to back up at left tackle and who knows,…….start if needed? But then we also have Columbo on the other side who is a bruiser, but we know his knee history and he, like anyone else could be lost at a moments notice and he is at the age that if your going to get some one to develop behind him, then the sooner the better.
I know the season has yet to start and we only have the foggiest of clues were our needs for next year will lye or how they will be addressed. But I’m willing to bet the first pick will be a Big Guy, offensive or Defensive I don’t know.
There have been some really good OT's in the 2nd round
Like Ugoh, McNeil, Colledge, Roos, and Barnes.
Ugoh got benched.
For sucking. Some 6th round guy is starting at LT for them now.
McNeil was there in the 2nd round, and we traded down instead
and took Fasano.
"Everybody wants something but nobody wants to pay the price" - Michael Irvin
Trading down in the post-Jimmy world has not been good to Jerry
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Felix Jones
was FREE because of a trade down in the post-Jimmy world…
So pardon my disposition; why should I listen to a system that never listened to me?
well
practically free… I guess you have to factor in what we gave up to move back into the first to get Spencer, but I’m sure it wasn’t so bad.
So pardon my disposition; why should I listen to a system that never listened to me?
Okay, that's one
To be fair, you should now look at the rest of his trade-down’s.
How do they look to you? You okay with passing on Stephen Jackson, Karlos Dansby and Chris Snee?
Think of the players he passed on because of his lust for the “deal”.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
McNeil has also been benched for sucking
And because the injury concerns back then have been proven to be valid, his back is giving up.
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
how many of us called that one?
I know I did.
Already went through the bad back thing.
Anyone remember Marco Rivera?
When did I become a Cowboy fan? When my mom told me I was.
OL picks have been awful
I was going to post a list of the OLine “misses”, but I got sick on the way back to the computer – just awful. Wow, when you really study these misses, it’s pretty incredible.
"The Most Dangerous Man in the world is the one with nothing to lose"
Don't you wonder
if it’s just a scouting thing? That their scouts lack the eye/expertise to pick out linemen? Otherwise, it’s hard to make sense of it.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
After cleaning up my keyboard,
here are the OL draft picks since Gurode (round- player):
2009 3- Robert Brewster; 2007 3- James Marten, 4- Doug Free; 2006 7- Pat McQuistan, 7- EJ Whitley;
2005 6- Rob Petiti; 2004 2- Jacob Rogers, 3- Stephen Peterman; 2003 2- Al Johnson, 7- Justin Bates(?)
It does seem, intentionally or not, that the Cowboys have avoided using high draft picks on OL after the Rogers/Peterman debacle. Although I don’t really care for a scattershot approach to drafting a position (remember three CB’s during Campo’s tenure?), I’m wondering if we should make an exception regarding OL. Take 3 or 4 every draft til we find a couple.
"Everybody wants something but nobody wants to pay the price" - Michael Irvin
I'm already having second thoughts about
taking a bunch of OL in the next couple of drafts. I hate that idea. Let’s just make sure the picks we do make are good ones. Other teams have done it, why can’t we?
"Everybody wants something but nobody wants to pay the price" - Michael Irvin
That is THE question alright.
Can anyone remember about when we quit being able to draft OL? Mid to late 90s? We drafted Flozell when?
"We'll see." --Bill Parcells
I am still hoping
that Free breaks that dry spell. we’ll see.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
Gurode was the last really good O-line pick
That was in 2002 – 2nd round.
Flo was in 1998 – 2nd round.
Jury is still out on Free and Brewster.
Training Camp '09 = Mega Thunder Dome....80 men enter, 53 men leave.
Yeah.
See I was thinking that it was pretty dry between Flo and Gurode, but prior to Flo we pretty much kept the OL stocked with players—all through the Larry Allen period, or until his last couple of years We drafted Stepnoski. We drafted Big E. Nate Newton might have been a free agent, I don’t remember.
We used to be able to scout and draft and develop O linemen. And we always drafted a couple whether we needed ‘em or not. Maybe now with fewer draft picks it’s a luxury, but it was a continual process. Like now, I guess, but they panned out more. Maybe Free will come through. And Brewster.
"We'll see." --Bill Parcells
1998, 2nd rd
although Flo at the time was a projected 1st rounder and slid into the 2nd.
In Romo we Trust
I just got done doing the research into our Woes in Drafting O-linemen.
I was always under the impression that our troubles started back in 2000 with the Gallaway trade; So I was making a list of our draft choices by year round and position; I was of the mind set that Parcells while acculay getting us back into the hunt for the playoffs neglected to address the O-line properly; In this, I was only partially wrong. Then, after getting frustrated with all the mediocre names in the recent past, I went back tothe 90s, were I thought for sureJimmy Johnson and the gang would support my memories of out-standing O-lines which had to come from investing time and money in top round picks. How wrong could I be! Those drafts were just loaded with names out of nowhere and have sice sunk back into the abis from which they came.
shit I was only just getting started and posted by accident, no spell check, no proof read nothing!
Anyway the jest of it is like many people have said we suck at drafting O-linemen, but more than that we suck at drafting period! It all is really a crap shoot! Don’t believe me look at the people we have drafted from the beginning and see what name you recognise and were they were taken. I think the recent drafts have been just about as successful as a draft can be, but only history will tell.
If you would post what you looked up, I'd love to see it
I’m not disagreeing, you just got me all excited thinking I was going to see a list
by StillHateTheGiants on Sep 3, 2009 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions
want to see a list?
go here
http://www.databasefootball.com/draft/draftteam.htm?tm=DAL&lg=nfl
or here
http://www.cowboysplus.com/classic/recordbook/draft/
accually kind of depressing
Very.
But it you check, every other team has equally spotty drafts. It’s a crapshoot.
"Everybody wants something but nobody wants to pay the price" - Michael Irvin
I guess, Just a Crap Shoot!
but Made me think about Aikmens comment that if the Roy Williams trade doesn’t work out it could go down as the worst trade in hx.
Hershel Walker was a 5th round pick and what did we fet for him? Then he did nothing for Minn. Then comes back and is a great ST’er for us. be along time before that isn’t the best trade in Hx. Of coarse there’s always Seattle’s Galloway trade to ruin it also.
I am so tired of talking about the past! I want new Glory!
????
Hershel Walker was a 5th round pick/blockquote>
by Musiccitynorm on Sep 3, 2009 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions
yep, went to USFL 1st
The Dallas Cowboys of the National Football League, suspecting that the USFL was not going to last, acquired Walker’s NFL rights by drafting him in the fifth round of the 1985 NFL Draft. When the USFL in fact succumbed after its technically successful, but financially fruitless antitrust suit against the NFL in 1986, Walker went to play for the Cowboys, eventually establishing himself as a premier NFL running back with two consecutive Pro-Bowl seasons (1987 and 1988
those were the days when we had a very smart, intelligent......
shrewd man by the name of Tex Schramm running the show
Idont't know but we need to get back the guy that scouted
Larry Allen in the 2nd! Probably the same sdude that was responsible for Erick Williams.
the guy who drafted Allen
runs the Cowboys drafts now.
He asked who scouted him
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Tom Ciskowski wrote the report on Allen
He’s the guy assembling the Dallas boards now.
He was on the staff, but Ireland and Parcells called the shots when most of those awful picks were made.
Now Cisky is THE man
2008 looks like a very solid draft.
2009? Not…so…much.
I’ll be interested to see how Vontae Davis plays for Irish Tuna.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
It isn't reasonable to grade 2009
With the picks they had, you can’t evaluate this draft for at least another year at a minimum
by StillHateTheGiants on Sep 2, 2009 7:56 PM CDT up reply actions
We can't even judge the 2008 draft yet
So I don’t see how you can discredit this years draft before you’ve even seen any of them play in a real game. You’re too funny
by ChrisRichey on Sep 2, 2009 8:14 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
How would you grade 2006? 2007?
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
That's a good point.
I didn’t realize that, but it gives me hope. It’ll take a couple of years to see the results, I’d think.
"We'll see." --Bill Parcells
Hurd, Austin and Ogletree haven't done squat yet, so the Cowboys have not cleaned up with them
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
Kind of makes you wonder ....
who or what we squandered all those first and second round picks on ….
by One.Cool.Customer on Sep 2, 2009 6:05 PM CDT reply actions
Defense, defense, and a little more defense
He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. - Thomas Jefferson
2 1st rounders went to Joey Galloway…not really relevant, but it still makes me bristle…
by goldnboi7 on Sep 2, 2009 6:20 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
why do equate low draft status to being a scrub??
Weren’t Ryan Leaf, Akili Smith and Tim Couch scrubs?? Weren’t they very high 1st round picks??
In Romo we Trust
Good question, and you're right.
Just because we expect 1st rounders to become players doesn’t make it so. There are always misses in the top rounds and finds in the lower rounds.
But if a player can bring it on the field I wouldn’t call him a scrub, no matter where he was taken.
"Everybody wants something but nobody wants to pay the price" - Michael Irvin
draft status is irrelevant relative to how good a player becomes
There are a laundry list of players who are proof of that.
In Romo we Trust
OL drafted this decade
Robert Brewster – jury still out
James Marten – bust
Doug Free – possible good player
Pat McQuistan – back up only at best
EJ Whitley – cut
Rob Petitii – cut
Jacob Rogers – bust
Stephen Peterman – cut
Al Johnson – bust
A. Gurode – pro bowler
Ty Walter – cut
Matt Lehr – back up, then cut
In Romo we Trust
I look at this differently...
Dallas’ early draft choices have been suspect in the last several years;
2004 – Julius, Jacob Rogers, Stephen Peterman
All three go bye bye
2005 – Ware, Spears and Burnett
Ware = stud, but Spears is gone after this year and we know about Burnett
2006 = Carp, Fasano and Hatcher
Those three have done what, exactly?
2007 = Spencer, Marten, Stanback
Call them two busts and an big question mark
2008 = Jones, Jenkins and Bennett
I thought maybe we were turning the corner, then the 2009 draft came along and well, let’s many of you know how I feel about that (looks a lot like our 1996 draft to me)…so 2009 looks like an anomaly.
We have to face facts about this team and their poor drafts. Sadly, it’s just not a strength of ours.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
I think it is more the endless downward maneuvering that startd when they missed on Unger
…but look at Jerry’s drafts where he has done that in the past. History is not on his side…
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
I know my glasses are rosier than yours, Blings, but
I’ve been happy with the last couple of drafts. Of course only time will tell.
"Everybody wants something but nobody wants to pay the price" - Michael Irvin
2008 sure looks good a year later
but the two prior?
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
The two prior drafts had Ireland running the show, not Ciskowski (sp?)
I think it will be interesting to compare our drafts vs. Miami’s for the next few years, starting with the 2008 draft since that’s when Ireland headed over there.
"Everybody wants something but nobody wants to pay the price" - Michael Irvin
He takes hater to a whole new level
I really can’t figure out what this guy actually likes about the Cowboys.
The cheerleaders?
No team is perfect, and you are being extremely harsh. Just look at Spears, the guy is a very solid player and you think he’s a bust? Just because he doesn’t put up the stats doesn’t mean he’s not a good player, and we can’t have all-pros at every position. Look through the last 10 drafts, I bet not even 25% of first rounders become productive players yet you expect Dallas to hit 50%+?
I agree about Spears.
I see a guy doing the job he’s supposed to do. He contains the run for the most part, chews up blocks, and disrupts in the backfield a couple of times per game.
The LBs get the sack in this defense.
"We'll see." --Bill Parcells
A draft pick in the teens should be more than solid
I wouldn’t call Spears a bust but I would call him a slight disappointment. I shudder to think Dallas almost took him ahead of Ware.
by StillHateTheGiants on Sep 2, 2009 9:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Look at the draft picks in the teens over the years
and you’ll see many, many bigger busts than spears. Its no sure thing.
If Spears leaves, we would miss him don't kid yourself!
There are so many mediocre linemen out there, Spears may not be a Super Duper Star , but the dude is just solid and way above average. Ever one was talking stuff about Tank Johnson. What did he do? Nothing, and he was supposed to be all that and a bag of chips. Well Give me a meat and potatoes type of player any day. Disappointing for a first round pick? I bet you can look back at DEs and DTs taken in the first round who never amounted to squat and barely contributed, and who’s name no one remembers, except the poor schmucks that pick them.
He has zero quickness
There are lots of fat dudes who take up space in the NFL. Though we don’t have a replacement on the current roster (Hatcher and Bowen are smaller, quick, pass-rusher types), it will be easier to replace him than Canty. And Spears isn’t that consistent. He and Canty got blown off the ball as often as they got penetration last year.
mr. jonhson...im going to diagree with you..
About spears and his backups, he is my fav. Dlmen next to rat he holds the line well..and if he never gets another sack again i’ll still think he’s doing a great job..all you have to do is go back and watch the minn. SD game when castill (sp?) was out and peterson set a rushing record, also I believe we played MINN. That year and he looked very average. Its all about containment on the edge and spears is very solid…
I don't need a compass to know which way the wind shines....
by hashishkabob on Sep 3, 2009 11:12 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
he=peterson btw..
I don't need a compass to know which way the wind shines....
by hashishkabob on Sep 3, 2009 11:14 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Castillo also looks like a bust
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
What a stupid question!
I mean, who doesn’t like the cheerleaders?
I mean, really…
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Spencer is a bust?
Now that’s a reach
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
Those "poor" drafts also netted us...
Witten, Barber, Ratliff, Canty, Gurode, Bradie James, etc.
Not to mention Choice and Scandrick have also played very well.
Drafting is a crapshoot. You can do this for just about every team, seriously, do it. Dallas has missed on a few more first rounders than some, but not everybody can use Jedi powers to swing ridiculous trades like the Patriots to stockpile draft picks every year.
Agree, I think stockpiling draft picks is the key to the draft.
You’re gonna miss on some picks, but the more picks you have, the more likely some of them stick.
"Everybody wants something but nobody wants to pay the price" - Michael Irvin
Thats crap
The only thing I think you can difinitively take from that list is that 1. we either don’t scout ol well or don’t progress them well and 2. We’ve taken a couple projects that have failed (Hatcher, Stanback). Other than that, the Carp pick was the only failure
Spears has been solid for us, if he left, we would miss him. Burnett was solid, but injury prone. I don’t see how you can view them as failed picks.
Fasano did very well last year – i think he was mostly the result of the regime change. I still don’t understand our logic in trading fasano and drafting bennet, but i guess it worked out. I always thought Fasano would be a decent player.
EVERYONE said Spencer was a great pick…now its the scouts fault that he hasn’t performed up to expectations?…i don’t buy that.
This team was built 90% through the draft/FA….aside from one wr spot, some veterans on the D and a couple OL. Considering we have a very talented team, that says to me our scouts (aside from OL) are a pretty good judge of talent.
Antnee wasn't even the Dolphins main tight end.
He and their other tight end David Martin had identical production save for Fasano’s 7 TD’s; some of which were directly manufactured by the Wildcat wackiness. I don’t follow the Dolphins closely enough to tell you how much Fasano was relied upon to block or how many snaps he got compared to Martin but I believe ranked right in the middle as far as starting tight ends go last year and that’s just as a receiver; Bennett’s a much more imposing blocker. Also Bennett had as many receptions of over 20-plus yards(6) as Fasano on 14 less catches.
Fasano’s solid in his own right but Bennett’s better in all areas.
Right
I think the team was looking for exactly what they ended up getting in Bennett – a guy who could catch and block effectively. The two TE set doesn’t work the way Garrett wants it to if the defense knows which guy will usually catch and which will usually stay in and block. Fasano wasn’t as skilled as Bennett in either and you could see it on the field. Made perfect sense to me.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
Bennett is a huge upgrade
End of story
by StillHateTheGiants on Sep 3, 2009 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions
Yet both were 2nd round picks
So is Fasano a bust or not?
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Considering he's a starting TE
I wouldn’t call him a bust. It’s not like we were expecting him to start for us when we drafted him.
Weren't we?
I think the prevailing notion on this and other sites was that we were going to use a double TE package often.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
He'll always be the guy that dropped the TD pass in the playoffs....
….On the play previous to Romo sailing the ball eight miles high over T.O.‘s head on what would’ve also been a TD.
Oh come on...
I don’t need a Terry rant right now.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Could anybody envision Fasano picking up huge chunks on those screen plays the way Marty does?
Not only is he more well-rounded; he gives the offense more versatility in the passing game in the ways they can use him.
I believe
they play a lot of two TE sets….I think he had like 475 yards and 7 tds.
Bennet looks better to be sure, but as I was saying above, if Parcells was still here, I don’t think we would’ve gotten rid of Fasano so quickly. I’m not sure Bennet fits the Parcells character profile lol. I don’t think calling Fasano a failed pick is accurate for that reason.
No, not a failure at all
just maybe not what it will take to create dilemmas for defenses when Dallas deploys the two TE set.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
I didn't call him a bust or failed pick
but the guy who replaced him is a lot better so the strategy was better to get rid of him
by StillHateTheGiants on Sep 3, 2009 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions
i didn't mean that as a response to you
more towards 5blings who seemed to imply he was
"Parcells guy" is one of the most nauseating terms in all of sports.
Just wanted to get that out there.
LOL
This team was built 90% through the draft/FA
As opposed to what?
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
As opposed to 90% trades?
because so many teams have rosters built that way?
I just found that funny.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
I agree. In fact I was going to post some smart ass comment about there being no other way until I thought "Duh, Trades"
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
you can't judge drafts soley on the high picks
you have to look overall. If you missed on some high picks, but hit on some lower picks, it’s still a good draft IMO.
It doesn’t matter where they are drafted.
In Romo we Trust
Exactly my thoughts
You have to look at the total acquisition of talent, draft, UDFA, free agents, trades whatever.
by StillHateTheGiants on Sep 3, 2009 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Look At What Adam Schefter Tweeted to Me...
@Adam_Schefter All I know is the Cowboys and Jones have talked. That’s a fact, Herson.
How accurate is this story? LOL!
~Texas Massacre '09~
Matt Jones?
Pacman Jones?
Kevin Jones?
Thomas Jones?
Julius Jones?
by BrentTaylor21 on Sep 2, 2009 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Broke his foot I believe...Lisfranc fracture?
He’s a backup on the Bears now. He could’ve been really good.
Surprised you didn't go with
June Jones!
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
I'm guessing he means Matt Jones
Since Mort had a similar blurb, Cowboys and Bears are “monitoring Matt Jones’ situation”
Training Camp '09 = Mega Thunder Dome....80 men enter, 53 men leave.
by APerfectStar on Sep 2, 2009 10:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Here's the link
It was on Rotoworld
Training Camp '09 = Mega Thunder Dome....80 men enter, 53 men leave.
by APerfectStar on Sep 2, 2009 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions
I think the Titans
are working him out right now.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
what in the world are you talking
About, can you make it clear what jones you are talking about? Its not pacman( he just signed in canada) not julius, not thomas, negotiating an ext for felix already?jk. I guess the only logical person is matt jones, but I don’t see why? And what does the last part of the comment mean herson?
by TONYINCC on Sep 2, 2009 10:18 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I saw earlier today......
that the Titans were bringing in Matt Jones for a look-see. It also said that the Cowboys were interested in him too. I just went back to find the article but it is gone. I think it was on profootballtalk.com and Schefter was the one reporting it.
very true......
here’s the article by Schefter on ESPN that I saw but I didn’t know if there was anything to it.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/trainingcamp09/news/story?id=4440936
Pacman didn't sign with Winnipeg
They pulled the offer. How sad is that?
Training Camp '09 = Mega Thunder Dome....80 men enter, 53 men leave.
by APerfectStar on Sep 2, 2009 10:22 PM CDT up reply actions
He must be really bad off and yes, it is very sad.......
such a waste of talent
sad is not the word....
well that leaves the 4-team UFL….and you know you cant put this guy in LV…so 3 teams
what I meant by sad......
is he has gotten so many chances but he’s such a knucklehead that he can’t seem to learn from his mistakes. Hopefully, Michael Vick won’t follow down this same path.
At the risk of sounding like a total bleeding heart (I'm as far from that as you can get)
From what I heard at one time, Pacman came from an environment that would have made it a miracle if he didn’t screw himself up. I know some guys can find their way out of that kind of thing, but it shouldn’t come as a shock that he doesn’t get it.
by StillHateTheGiants on Sep 3, 2009 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions
The same can be said for Vick
And at least Pacman can play his chosen position (he was our best cover corner for most of last year). Meanwhile, Brad Johnson can throw the ball better than Vick.
And Pac never did anything this stupid with the Cowboys. I’d say Vick is a bigger idiot and a much worse player.
by JimmyJohnson on Sep 3, 2009 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Poor character is poor character
Are there different degrees? I would have to say there are. Personally, I believe the Professional sports pays so outrageously, and offer opportunities for even more money from endorsements and such. That if you get any mark on your name you should lose the right to play!
Look I’m a nurse, and all I have to do is get into an arguement with a someone and I could possibly lose my licence, then were would my family be? I have no sympathy for anyone who has the opportunity to go to the nations best collages for free, then most don’t graduate, then come out and make boo-coo bucks for playing a game.
But then again American society as a whole has lowered its standards.
But thats a different forum of discussion.
agree bad knees......
it’s just you hate to see these knuckleheads be given such great opportunities and they find a way to screw it up. Unfortunately, even at the high school level these guys are cut so much slack it’s ridiculous. On my son’s high school team, there are some stud athletes that are cut so much slack-grades etc. that it’s really teaching them a lot about the real world isn’t it?
There was a great segment last weekend on Charles Rogers where he said...
essentially the same thing.
Immaturity + millions = trouble
Every time.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Unless RW is in worse shape than we thought
I don’t see how this makes sense. Crayton, Austin, Hurd, Ogletree give us good depth and lets be real, Matt Jones isn’t gonna pick up the offense in a snap, they’ll probably be better players than him this year anyway.
Matt Jones could replace Austin
He could be a perfect #2 who could stretch the field and back opposing safeties up – regardless of whether he puts up great numbers. He could also revive Irvin’s whitehouse.
by JimmyJohnson on Sep 3, 2009 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions
If you could keep him from
snorting the sideline chalk between plays…
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
Maybe he can't score TD's because he falls to his knees and tries to inhale the goal line?
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Indiana Jones?
John Paul Jones?
Spike Jones?
Grace Jones?
Ed ‘Too Tall’ Jones?
"He has a peculiar felicity of expression." John Adams
ive seen indiana jones run and make some wild
Catches, he’s got great hands but more importantly its his ability to think on the fly. Only 2 problems I see with indy is he never tells anyone else what he’s doing and he would be whipping the shit out of the refs every time they threw a flag on him…although it would be cool to see him slide down that wire the overhead cam. Is on and sack a qb with his feet….
I don't need a compass to know which way the wind shines....
by hashishkabob on Sep 3, 2009 11:35 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
You've really thought about this a LOT
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
Sad, really...
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
O-Line Coaches
Look at the rest of the league. There are lots of teams who start mid-to-late round picks in their first or second year without the disastrous consequences we had with Proctor last year.
Houck, in his second stint, doesn’t seem to be able to develop young linemen like he used to. If you listen to Nate, Houck is an O-line guru – shaping fat blobs into great offensive linemen.
Sparano didn’t do a great job either with young linemen. But, at least McQuistan was looking pretty good under his tutelage and has regressed badly since. I wonder if Houck has slipped a bit in his intensity. I also wonder how much coaching (as opposed to poor scouting) has contributed to our failure to develop young linemen.
I agree about both Houck and Sparano
There has to be a big element of poor coaching over the past few years
by StillHateTheGiants on Sep 2, 2009 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions
And what's bad is
we know that both are (or have been) great coaches in the league.
The other possibility
is that they teach different techniques and philosophies and there is a learning curve.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
I suppose
But is a learning curve usually measured in years? How long might we have to wait?
by StillHateTheGiants on Sep 3, 2009 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Time is up!
This year. That’s all I’m giving Houck. Then I’m invoking a DalaiLuke Pet Cat label on him and that’ll be that.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
don't forget Colombo
Don’t forget we got Colombo off the scrap heap too — he was a first rounder for the Bears, but, we got him off waivers.
Leonard Davis is somewhat of a similar situation
We have two very good lineman by pickin up early round picks that didn’t work out with their first teams. I feel like this is a solid way to go – Olineman take a while to pick up the game.
Davis was expensive, though
So pardon my disposition; why should I listen to a system that never listened to me?
Yeah, I think we could have got him cheaper.
Everyone thought he was a bust at Left Tackle. Which, he was, but at guard? Duuuude.
When did I become a Cowboy fan? When my mom told me I was.
im not so sure he was a bust at LT
wade said when he played against him in SD he played very well. I just think some teams and coaches lull players into doing just enough because from the owners down no one really cared about winning. I think if he were to play LT here I think he could do well…..jmuinpfcpcdlapdknbbo..
I don't need a compass to know which way the wind shines....
by hashishkabob on Sep 3, 2009 11:50 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Yo]'re right
but the perception that he was a bust was definitely out there.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
You're
if anyone is keeping score at home…
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
I was watching
sure you don’t need those flash cards back?
My problem isn't spelling
it’s typing. The result is the same but it renders flash cards useless.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
here's the problem
Dallas has been in the business of getting 3rd, 4th, 5th rounders later in the draft and developing them for the future. OL usually takes a good two years to develop. I think they are missing at that draft spot. They need to move up and draft #1 & #2 for the OL. That of course is still not a sure thing but the past has proven that the percentages go up in talent.
My hope next year,
1st pick – OT
2nd pick – DT
3rd pick – OG
by torchindefenses on Sep 2, 2009 10:23 PM CDT reply actions
Only 1 team has won the Superbowl
in the last 10 years without one Super Star safety.
Last year 4 of the top 8 safeties were in the Championship game.
I wanted Sean Phillips instead of Mike Jenkins.
This year it’s all about Taylor Mays.
Way to go all Skipper on him Mick!
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
I always thought Mary Ann was hotter
Ginger scared me.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
I would rather trade half our picks for Eric Berry...
I originally thought Mays>Berry, but Berry’s play-making ability is other worldly like Ed Reed’s.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
It must be a full moon
…because I agree with you.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
That must be it...
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on Sep 3, 2009 11:30 PM CDT up reply actions
A very valid point
I think it todays game, an elite safety really quarterbacks the defense. Looking at teams with playoff success, safety and qb are by FAR the most important tells as to whether a team has a shot at a superbowl.
Its hard to take the high road here.
Granted, we’ve had some miserable drafts. And in spite of this story I think we spend an awful lot of time trying to develop players from the bottom of the roster.
The simple fact is I’ve always liked Hurd and wanted to see him get a chance. I’m excited about Ogletree. Could it be that Austin has really learned how to catch? Or if we throw him 50 balls, are 20 going to clank off of his hands? Is he going to drop the winning touchdown? Austin has some great tools in his toolbox, but he just doesn’t remind me of a football player. Hurd and Ogletree, definitely football players. I hope I’m wrong about Austin. I hope he shuts my mouth, but balls are going to clank. I just hope he doesn’t let us down when it counts the most.
These are realistic expectations of this team.
Last night I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky and I thought to myself, "where the heck is the ceiling?"
yep, lots of guys out there who are big and fast, but
You HAVE TO CATCH THE BALL to make any of the other stuff relevant.
I am hoping the best man
gets the reps. So if Crayton, Hurd and Ogletree show the most production they should play. But I also have seen them play a hurt Barber instead of an effective Choice, so i can’t say that the Tree is going to get a chance even if he earns it.
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
I agree
His best chance to play much this year is when guys get nicked up and hopefully returning kicks.
by StillHateTheGiants on Sep 3, 2009 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions
thats right Terry tell them
You, Raf, and me could play wide out!
by Musiccitynorm on Sep 3, 2009 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions
From my sofa
Ogletree looks ready to play. Some guys are like that. They come into the league and they can just play. I do agree that with all the time we have invested in Hurd and Austin, they are finally going to get their chance. If one of them struggles though, we still have more than enough guys who need to get the ball. To me it seems pretty clear that Redballs (not a typo) and Romo are going to get Roy the ball at least 7 times a game. Add in another 7 for Witten, and 3 each for Bennett, Hurd, & Austin, plus factoring for dump offs to the running backs, and its easy to see how Ogletree is going to wait his turn.
Last night I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky and I thought to myself, "where the heck is the ceiling?"
As far as drafting OL goes - don't claim to know the formula.
For every rule, there’s an exception:
- Mauler ? Quick ? Athletic ? Big name school ?
Turn the argument around – who does draft OL well ? PHL, NYG, NE, PIT come to mind. What is their model?
I think there’s a cause & effect there – because our drafting is so spotty, we’ve been forced to go FA in the case of L Davis, waiver wire with Colombo. Both of which, in hindsight, have worked well.
The draft is a crapshoot at almost every position, I still say you benchmark best in class and then apply those lessons to your own circumstance
The 7th Rule of "Fight Club": Fights will go on as long as they have to.
I thought your post was on the right track then you fizzled out
I agree with the teams that seem to do it well. I would add Denver but they have a new regime now. So what are they doing different? Higher picks? I don’t think that’s the case with NE or the Giants. I’m sure Wade and crew ask themselves the same question, I just can’t believe it’s that hard to figure out. I’m inclined to think it’s just been poor coaching here.
by StillHateTheGiants on Sep 3, 2009 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions
Not Philly
Take a look at Philly’s OL draft over the past 8 years. 16 years of starters for 16 picks. Dallas is slightly better with 16 years from 13 picks. NYG has been much stingier and better, with 12years from only 6 picks. NE had a great 2001-2005 hitting 4 starters, but whiffed 7 other times.
Houck worries me
Its happened in the past that a top OL coach just seems to lose his edge. The way the line regressed last year and the troubles getting Holland ready (he is not dumb and this BS about him not being able to pick up the playbook was just that) and having to rely on the proctologist just says bad things. Maybe it was the regime change at O line but I am still worried..
One could argue that starting for us for two years means Al Johnson was not a bust. Peterman is starting for the Lions (if that means anything). So actually as regards total qaulity its not as bad as it was made to look. Our real failures have been drafting OT. We are not too bad interior wise.
I'm not worries about Houck
I think our OL is fine if they stay healthy, that will be the key. Last year, they weren’t.
In Romo we Trust
I agree, if our starters stay healthy
But you have to admit the overall development of the total group sucks. Why did we have zero depth last year and it’s only marginally better. There’s a leak in the boat somewhere.
by StillHateTheGiants on Sep 3, 2009 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions
We haven't drafted or developed
enough OL, that’s simply the bottom line. That’s why next year i think they will carpet bomb the position in the draft, they basically have to.
In Romo we Trust
That's not what you said when I was deriding Cisky and JJ for not drafting a lineman this past draft
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Lineman = LT
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
they carpet bombed LB and DB this draft
you can only carpet bomb so many positions every draft.
In Romo we Trust
Is it Houck,
or the intelligence of our offensive line. I just don’t know if they can consistently pick up the delayed blitz (Ravens). If the defense surprises them, can they cope?
When did I become a Cowboy fan? When my mom told me I was.
We have done better with FA OL then the draft for certain
COlombo, Bigg, Kosier (who was REALLY cheap) – the only one that sort of busted on us was – nuts cannot remember his name- the guy who injured his back right after we got him. Even he gave us decent service for a while.
The difference between Super Bowl and 9 - 7
is hiting on a high percentage of your 1st and second round picks AND having the discerning eye for the occasional gems in the later rounds and waiver wire.
Over the last decade it seems like the Boys seem to be better at picking the gems from the mid and lower rounds than in the earlier rounds.
To me, a 1st rounder needs to be a game changer, a Pro-Bowler, an almost immediate contributor and certain starter. When you burn a 1st rounder and you get a serviceable guy but he doesn’t fit the above criteria, you paid too much. He may not be a bust but you paid a Mercedes price and got a chevy. That’s why the Cowboys haven’t been in the playoffs in so long, they haven’t hit gold on enough of their early picks.
"He has a peculiar felicity of expression." John Adams
So, I guess for every Mercedes picked
there are thirty one Chevy’s picked every year? Sorry Jim I couldn’t resist.
When did I become a Cowboy fan? When my mom told me I was.
Guns
No, of course not. High 2nd rounders are BMW priced Mid 2nd are Cadillacs, Low 2nd are Lexus.
Maybe we can get cash for some of our clunkers.
"He has a peculiar felicity of expression." John Adams
Lexus is just a high priced Toyota
but still probably better than a Cadillac. Did you know that Jaguar is now just a high priced European Ford?
true, but it does not hurt to hit on the early round picks
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
Rude... commenting from an old post - I grew up on the Jersey shore - my folks still have a place in Point Pleasant
mmm… Jersey girls :)
Doomsday returns... Wade Phillips style.
I grew up in West Orange
Jersey shore girls are awesome, like a tanned Monica Belluci, only chewing gum and/or smoking cigs
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
I've probably posted this several times, but...
I went to the inaugural game at Giants Stadium, won a tailgate party contest, and of course they hosted the Cowboys. Roger, Pearson and company spoiled the party… my Grandfather, a Giants fan, never went to a game since the “Pisarcik fumbles the ball!!” game against Philly. My dad was the beneficiary… last I checked, the tickets are still in g’pas name, some 20 years since he passed! I try to make it back every year, as the Cowboys usually seem to have their number at the Meadowlands… unfortunately not this year! (I can’t wait to revenge last year’s debacle!)
Doomsday returns... Wade Phillips style.
I have not been to a game in Giants stadium in a couple of years
My sister lives outside of Dallas, so I have been to more games in Texas Stadium than Giants stadium.
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
UH
AND having the discerning eye for the occasional gems in the later rounds and waiver wire.
and luck, and good coaching, and on and on. My reference was to the draft.
"He has a peculiar felicity of expression." John Adams
Jim, you said we haven't done as well in the early rounds...
I have to disagree… while we have not always hit, you cannot deny that – without a top-10 pick, we NAILED arguably the best defensive player in the game. Jenkins, Jones, even Spears and Spencer are all solid if not great contributors… our only real bust (though I think he deserves this year’s opportunity to remove that label)… is Carpenter.
A future HOFer in Ware, two potential stars in Jenkins and Jones, Spencer’s top-end is yet to be determined, and all Spears does is get a little better each year. Not so shabby.
Doomsday returns... Wade Phillips style.
NE blows that argument all to hell
They haven’t relied on high draft picks
by StillHateTheGiants on Sep 3, 2009 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions
plus our 1st rdr's have been good...lets look back..
Last year felix and jenkins I like…year before spence I like a lot..then ware and spears love those picks. Year before trade I think but j jones wasn’t to bad and still ok with sea. Year before I think was newman HELLO NEWMAN then before that I think roy w. Who we all loved to see him blast Emmett backwards to make the cowboys the only team he never gained a yard on..I might have missed someone but overall I would say we are above avg. On our 1st picks…
I don't need a compass to know which way the wind shines....
by hashishkabob on Sep 3, 2009 12:17 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
oops... sorry hashish, didn't see this post before mine above
anyway, deserves to be repeated a few times?
Doomsday returns... Wade Phillips style.
So, if that logic is truly extensible...
Spears = bust.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Here are the players taken around Spears
16-Travis JOhnson (wasn’t he just released)
17-David Pollack (I think he retired due to injury?)
18-Erasmus James(not better than spears)
19-Alex Barron (I admittedly have no idea about him)
21-Matt Jones (again, not a better player than spears)
22-Mark CLayton – Again, Spears ahs been a better player for us
23-Fabian Washington – decent
24 Aaron Rodgers, irrelevant
25-Jason Cambell, irrelevant
26-Chris Spencer – If I’m correctly recalling who he is, hes pretty good
If Spears is a bust, what are these other guys? You’ve gotta realize, there are never sure things in the draft. SPears has been a solid, reliable starter for us. In a 3-4 D, where the DEs have a huge responsibility, thats pretty good in my book.
Julius Jones plus Demarcus Ware (he is the guy we picked with the draft pick from Buffalo we got for trading down) instead of Steven Jackson is all kinds of awesome
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
I guess that ends that story then
by StillHateTheGiants on Sep 3, 2009 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions
Not quite
Dumping Julius forced Dallas to go out on a limb for Felix and then pick up Choice.
Here ends the story…
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
I was wrong
The Ware pick was he COwboys own pick. The Buffalo pick was used on Marcus Spears
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
Yep, taking JuJo instead of Steven Jackson...
Netted Dallas the pick that turned out to be Spears.
It’s quite possible though, that if Dallas didn’t have 2 first round picks, BP might have gone for Spears at #11. I’ve read that he viewed Spears as the cornerstone of his conversion from the 4-3 to his 3-4 defense.
Training Camp '09 = Mega Thunder Dome....80 men enter, 53 men leave.
by APerfectStar on Sep 3, 2009 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Glad that didn't happen...
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
And Buffalo traded us that pick for. . .
QB P.J. Losman.
Other teams screw up the draft, too.
"Everybody wants something but nobody wants to pay the price" - Michael Irvin
That's like buying a car called
“Lemon”.
Hello, Bufflao! Losman?? Seriously?
Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it.
Hey man don't knock the Chevy Nova
I owned a 69 Nova SS with a 396 that would bring the front tires off the ground in the 1st 3 gears.
I believe he is referring to the fact that the Nova was marketed
in the Hispanic world using that name “Nova”, which in Spanish “no va” means “no go”. As you can imagine, it didn’t sell real well in the Hispanic world. What’s worse is that it took a while for Chevy’s genius marketing execs to figure out why.
Huh! Didn't know that either
I barely speak English, and have no Idea what any of the words I use mean.
The pick for spears came from the trade- we were all pissed when buffalo had a good year and the pick was a lot worse then we thought we would get.
The old saw about BP wanting spears more then Ware is wrong. Ware was not that well regarded until the combine where he just absolutely blew people away. That took him from a late 1st rd to nearly the top ten. The only reason he did not get picked earlier was that he came from a small school. When Merriman started to raise red flags as regards roids and rumored to be going for the Postons as his agents Jerruh and BP backed right off of him. So by draft day they were just hoping no one took Ware before we did.
At least the Postons were good for something
scaring Jerry away from Merriman was a humanitarian act towards the Cowboys. More distractions anyone?
the guy we really should be thanking is Matt Millen
The Lions scouts were touting Ware, but he took Mike Williams instead. With a competent GM, Ware is a Lion instead of a Cowboy.
In Romo we Trust
it was more than the combine
He pretty much beat every tackle at the senior bowl like a rented mule.
In Romo we Trust
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