Placing bets on WR's to stretch the field
by torchindefenses on Sep 8, 2009 6:07 PM CDT
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PrintDallas has all the pieces in place to make it into the playoffs this year. Or do they? Without the homerun threat of a fast, sure handed WR, can this team continually find the end zone? Once defensive coordinators figure out that Dallas cannot stretch the field, they will stop the run. It won't matter what three headed monster we have back there, they will stop us.
Until the season is 5 or 6 games deep and there are consistent 20+ passes that connect, I'll be thinking this team won't be able to get to the playoffs. You can win running the football, with the occasional draw here and there. Add in some passes to the TE's and a few to the WR's and you can score. My problem with this is that it makes a very long field. I know Jason Garrett knows this and he has always been one to air it out. He had T.O. at his disposal.
Dallas didn't connect deep in pre-season and I know they haven't had much luck during training camp with the deep ball. I know they will try it. It's up to Austin and Hurd (hopefully at some point Ogletree) to make it happen. If not, defenses will creep up to the line of scrimmage and it will be a lot harder to go 80 yards for the TD.
I know, I know. The two TE set can really make the oppositional D's heads spin. They will have a hard time covering both of these TE's. I won't be convinced that this team can get to the playoffs until the deep ball is connecting on a regular basis. It's up to you no name WR's. Put up or get out of the NFL.
This debate has been slung about on here for months and months. I'm bringing it back. Well, it's 4 days and counting. What do you think?
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if we can put together a half decent run game
one thats more effective than our ridiculous number of 1 yard gains the last few years, you’ll see that Witten and Bennet are gonna give our wrs one on one coverage, and I have absolute faith that our wrs can beat most teams in the league when it comes to this.
If we don’t get a good push on the line…things get interesting. If teams can key in on the pass like last year, suddenly that lack of a guy to consistently spread the field will be a problem.
okay, does the run set up the pass? or does the pass, set up the run?
If we don’t beat teams deep, the defense will stack the line with 7 in the box and no matter how hard the OL’s push is it will be very hard to get 1st downs. We could only do that in the early 90’s with Emmitt, Erik Williams & Co. Dallas still had Alvin Harper who kept the safety honest by nabbing all kinds of deep balls. Once Alvin left, the offense wasn’t the same.
The year Harper left (1995) Emmitt had his best year.
The offense was 3rd in the league in scoring. Hmmm, you mention Harper leaving but make no mention of another reliable target retiring after the 1995 season. The Cowboys didn’t do any better a job of replacing him than they did Harper. I wonder who that could be.
Then explain away the Giants and Jags consistently being top five rushing teams.
The Giants were 28th in both passing plus of over 20-plus and 40-plus yards a year ago. As for the Jags when they’ve had good records; yes, they’ve had more long passing plays than one might expect (top 10) but their receivers were still considered mediocre if not bottom-of-the-barrel. If that’s the case I guess it all goes back to how ordinary you might consider this line as a run blocking unit.
It all goes back to the Oline, I agree.
The running game and the deep ball.
"Everybody wants something but nobody wants to pay the price" - Michael Irvin
There was a big drop off in talent at the WR spot when Alvin left due to free agency
He was a bust after he left. He was great with Troy. We were extremely lucky we didn’t have to play the Niners instead of Green Bay that year and barely sqeaked by the Steelers. Romo is going to have to get really good in a hurry at play action. I think he’s good at it but he needs to get automatic. If this offense is going to bang it out and bring in that 7, 8th defender, they need to bring it home with the home run to keep that safety back.
One more thing MadMick
What I am saying isn’t that Dallas can’t be good. What I am saying is that I don’t think they can be great without that WR that can stretch the field. IF, big IF, Austin can be that guy and performs consistently, then so be it. If not, well, they won’t be making an appearance post season. Unless this defense just comes out of no where and surprises us all.
I don't think enough value is placed on plays of over 20-yards.
Witten can come up with those and Roy is capable of making plenty of deep catches on jump balls if he and Romo are in synch. Bennett should also be able to snag a few catches for nice gains like the game-winner against the Redskins last year.
Now of course the quick strike plays in the passing game are gone and more importantly some of those 3 or 4-TD games T.O. had are gone. But if Witten and Williams can pick up the occasional 20-plus yard gains that should still keep defenses honest enough where Felix won’t face stacked defenses.
The bigger concern for me than the lack of quick strike drives is maintaining and finishing long drives; i.e., red zone efficiency. We shall see.
and along with that
without the quick strike ability, we’re more likely to have penalties hinder drives as we saw this preseason
That, is the point that I am making
Without a high percentage quick strike offense, the offense has to run and dink it’s way 80 or so yards for a TD. That leaves a lot of room for error. Especially with these knuckleheads. False starts galore.
by torchindefenses on Sep 8, 2009 10:32 PM CDT reply actions
I wholeheartedly agree with the last line.
Stacked fronts or not, I still think Felix is capable of generating big plays. That being said I think people are quick to forget who guys like Thurman Thomas and Marshall Faulk had flanking them at the receiver position to allow them to be such dangerous dual threats. Hint: those guys were better than the ones we currently have.
We have plenty of WRs that can blow by DBs
if Romo gets time to throw, that is the key and always will be.
In Romo we Trust
Once they blow by the DBs they need to be able to catch those passes
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
Same old song and dance?
Williams? Well, he doesn’t blow past people. Now is he capable of scoring 30, 40 and even 50-yard TD’s off Irvin-esque catches where he wrestles the ball away from the defender deep down the field and shrugs them off to go the final five or ten yards? Certainly. But he’s never blown past people that I’ve seen in the pros.
Austin? That’s your guy; right? If you’re telling me he’s going to replicate the production of the 1993 model Alvin Harper I’m telling you here and now to seek professional help. At best, Austin might have a career that resembles James McKnight’s and that would be a very productive career for Austin compared to what he’s actually produced (in reality) so far. That’s not necessarily a bad thing either. Out of 222 career receptions by McKnight, 63 went for 20-plus yards. That’s a similar rate to Harper.
Now if McKnight seems like a really random player to compare Austin to; especially considering nobody probably remembers him at all much less enough to compare his game to Austin’s; relax, there’s a reason. For half of his career, the also-undrafted McKnight was fairly productive and the other half he was marginal; at least for a guy who was never better than 2nd or (most of his career) 3rd option. Probably the only reason I remember him is that the only year he set foot on the field as a Cowboy happened to be his career year. And that’s what Austin will be; a footnote who might have a really productive year or two but is mostly just marginal.
But Austin as good as Terry Glenn in ’05 and ‘06 or as deadly a homerun threat as Alvin Harper? Not happening, brother.
you obviously never watched much football the past 35 years
Because guys like Lance Alworth, Don Maynard and Steve Largent blew by CBs regularly in their day.
Therefore, if Romo gets time, every single receiver on the roster has enough speed and moves to beat CBs in this league. The key is pass protection.
In Romo we Trust
Oh wizard, if you can find....
….The part in that post where I stated a guy has to run “X” 40-time to get separation, please do point it out. Otherwise, your reply makes absolutely no sense. The only thing I notice with your random group of players is they’re all little white guys…..which has what relevance to my post exactly? Although let’s be brutally honest here; in “their day” the corners defending those guys were so much physically inferior to modern defenders it’s like today’s players are from another galaxy. Nowadays, an old drunk like Max McGee couldn’t crawl out of bed hungover and be the Super Bowl MVP on a whim. Different times indeed.
So if I’m understanding you correctly, your point is every receiver in the league can get open as long as pass protection holds up? Can we just never discuss the passing game again if that’s the case. Hey, fellas…..Oh, fellas…..I figured out the key to the passing game. Protect the QB long enough and any NFL-calibre receiver can get open deep.
If you ever played football
you would know there is a thing called a double move which works just as well as blowing by a CB with 4.3 speed.
Those little white guys just happen to be three of the best WRs in the history of the game and could easily have blown by todays CBs because their precise route running sets up their double moves, in case you didn’t understand that.
There is much more than pure speed to being a good receiver. Irvin blew by a lot of CBs in his day and he was never faster than 4.5 on his best day.
In Romo we Trust
That would all be neat-o if you were responding to a single point I actually brought up.
It would also be very informative if I didn’t already know every bit of it. Hey, historian, you forgot Jerry Rice only ran a 4.6. Oh, and you also left out that Steve Largent was the NFL’s All-Time leader in TD receptions when he retired, Mr. history teacher. Also I don’t know how Largent is relevant to Austin considering Largent produced more in his 14-game rookie season than Austin has in his whole career up to this point. Help me connect the dots or continue arguing random strawmen.
I’m not ignorant but you are foolish. “Missing easy TD passes in the 3rd quarter of a playoff game doesn’t matter as long as you give the team a chance to win later.” Didn’t you say that in another thread? You’re the one who just doesn’t get what it takes to win big football games.
Also, you need some reading comprehension lessons as in the very reply directly above your post my first sentence was this: "Oh wizard, if you can find….….The part in that post where I stated a guy has to run "X" 40-time to get separation, please do point it out. "
Actually I believe you’re the one that seems to be arguing any competent pro receiver with a fast 40-time is a bona fide big play receiver. Naw, man; it ain’t that easy. Also Romo won’t have eight seconds to throw every single game.
LOL, there really should be a sarcasm font. . .
That would all be neat-o if you were responding to a single point I actually brought up.
"Everybody wants something but nobody wants to pay the price" - Michael Irvin
no I didn't say that at all
It seems that you’re the fool because my argument isn’t that a competent pro receiver is a bona fide big play receiver, don’t know how you came up with that conclusion.
My point is that our receiving corp is plenty capable of stretching defenses even though they don’t all run sub 4.5 40s. Titans offense last season was very efficient, enough so that they won 13 games. I think they’re proof you don’t need speed demons at WR to have a good offense.
BTW, nobody said Romo needs 8 seconds to connect deep, 3 or 4 is plenty enough.
In Romo we Trust
Terry
If you’re talking to me, I’ve been watching football since I was able to play it. About 35 years. I started watching the Boys in ’74. I was 5 years old.
Yeah, Michael Irvin could catch the deep ball quite often too. He was noted for the push off but he had good hands and could separate, using his body. Good receivers know how to use their body to create just that amount of separation needed to make the play.
ONE of the keys is pass protection, albiet a good one. The other is can these receivers separate? They haven’t been able to in the past. Crayton has a hard time with separation unless he’s in the slot. Austin has the speed, but hasn’t had the hands. Hurd, well he hasn’t played much. These receivers are extremely unproven and until they can show they can put up the numbers by running good routes and get separation, they are lack luster. We will need a few of these guys that can perform against TOP CB’s in the league. This is how you win in the post season, if, and that’s a BIG if, they get there.
by torchindefenses on Sep 10, 2009 7:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Dallas doesn't have great speed on the edge
Why is that so hard to take?
We are who we are.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Hard to take?
Well, Dallas would have a better chance at making the post season. IMO they are close barring injury, except at WR.
It’s not just the OL, WR’s have to get separation. These guys have struggled to get separation when on the field. That, is important. Why is Witten thrown to so much? He gets separation from LB’s and the WR’s have struggled.
by torchindefenses on Sep 9, 2009 10:39 AM CDT reply actions
No
That isn’t who we are.
This team will need to be more imaginative and create matchup issues for other teams in order to score a lot. But, as Fighter15 said in a previous post, the farm has been bet on Dallas’ ability to shut other teams down, run the ball effectively and dominate time of possession.
Any explosiveness that people fell in love with from the T.O. era left with him.
This team will need to run the ball to set up the pass, as opposed to prior years when the reverse was the case.
"Well, we didn't block real good but we made up for it by not tackling."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
I really have my doubts about that one
Again,when you have Romo who has a superquick release and is generally accurate, 3 players who are pretty proven in this league in Witten, Roy and Crayton, two guys with potentialin Austin and Hurd, and outlets that demand attention in Felix and Barber, we are not going to be a run first offense.
Will we need a more effective run game than in 07 to be successful? Yes, definitely. But its not likewe have some weak passing game that needs to be hidden
I agree
Play Action passes deep. My point again is that if a team that runs a lot doesn’t have that deep threat, one on one coverage is standard. The safety moves close to the LOS and helps with run support. It becomes a lot harder to run the ball effectively.
by torchindefenses on Sep 9, 2009 11:34 AM CDT reply actions
I'm saying this twice for good measure
If you’re talking to me, I’ve been watching football since I was able to play it. About 35 years. I started watching the Boys in ’74. I was 5 years old.
Yeah, Michael Irvin could catch the deep ball quite often too. He was noted for the push off but he had good hands and could separate, using his body. Good receivers know how to use their body to create just that amount of separation needed to make the play.
ONE of the keys is pass protection, albiet a good one. The other is can these receivers separate? They haven’t been able to in the past. Crayton has a hard time with separation unless he’s in the slot. Austin has the speed, but hasn’t had the hands. Hurd, well he hasn’t played much. These receivers are extremely unproven and until they can show they can put up the numbers by running good routes and get separation, they are lack luster. We will need a few of these guys that can perform against TOP CB’s in the league. This is how you win in the post season, if, and that’s a BIG if, they get there.
by torchindefenses on Sep 10, 2009 7:02 PM CDT reply actions
Spot on about Irvin.
Nobody brought the “power forward fighting for a rebound” mentality to the receiver position like he did.
Your last line is the biggest question mark surrounding Austin and Hurd; can they consistently beat the likes of the Eagles corners? I can only hope so and that’s as far as I’ll go on that one.
I think
with the improvments in the secondary, the receiving corps is the only obvious weakness.
When have we had a fast sure handed receiver in recent memory?
I hope you are not referring to Owens. Deep over the shoulder passes were all you could count on him catching. Anything else you were hoping he didn’t bobble or tip into the air for a DB to pick off. Fast yes, sure handed, no. As far as I have seen from the players, Ogletree is our best bet for a player to provide both. His fastest listed 40 time was a 4.32 and he has caught everything that has come his way SO FAR, since he hasn’t had THAT many passes come his way yet. We’ll just have to see.
Tony Romo off in dat hole, Watch roll and watch him throw, Watch him lead dem cowboys to the super bowl, now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys, Now watch me "yua!" crank dat cowboys!
ProBowlFactory,
Hmmmm… Terry Glenn, Rocket Ismael, T.O. (he still caught 13 TD’s, compare that to the rest of the league) and Antonio Bryant, for starters. I don’t care that T.O. is gone, good riddance. I just hope that one of these guys can stay healthy and catch the deep ball 50% of the time. I’m big on Ogletree. He still is a very raw prospect and has a lot to learn.
by torchindefenses on Sep 11, 2009 2:43 PM CDT reply actions
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