Cowboys Draft '10, Part Three: Catch a Play Maker
by Rafael Vela on Feb 16, 2010 12:11 AM CST
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We continue the process of self-scouting the Cowboys '10 draft by looking at wide receiver profiles.
"Fine size. Big target. Has over-the-middle courage. Large, soft hands. Moves easily. Very smooth and fluid. Adjusts to the ball well. Makes difficult catches look easy. Will lay out for the ball. Very effective on the hitch screen. A play maker. Can run after the catch. Separates from the defender most of the time.
-- Joel Buchsbaum, Draft Preview 1992, review of WR Jimmy Smith (emphasis mine)
Jimmy Smith's Cowboys career didn't turn out as any of us would have hoped, but he nonetheless turned in a fine career, with 862 catches and over 12,000 yards. For draft purposes, he serves as the Cowboys prototype, a player who combines all the main qualities the team pursues. They can be summarized as four primary qualities and one bottom line trait.
When teams break down receivers they look for four dominant skills. They want to see quickness. Can a player make cuts at speed? Can he get off the line of scrimmage and up to speed in a hurry?
Next, does that player have top end speed? Can he create separation and get deep on a secondary?
Dallas also places a premium on strength, for personal and for team reasons. Unlike their college counterparts, NFL receivers see press coverage almost every week. Pro corners will bully weak wideouts and erase them from games. Moreover, the Cowboys want to run the football. Receivers who are either unwilling or unable to block are liabilities and won't get on the field.
Lastly, and obviously, receiver need good hands. That said, there's more to catching than good mitts. Can a prospect track the football, adjust to it, and snag it, in all areas and situations?
If you look at the physical qualities, they point towards bigger prospects, especially the premium the team places on strength. A once over of the current receiving corps bears this out:
- Miles Austin -- 6'3", 214 lbs.
- Patrick Crayton -- 6'0", 204 lbs.
- Sam Hurd -- 6'2", 208 lbs.
- Kevin Ogletree -- 6'0", 192 lbs.
- Roy Williams -- 6'3", 215 lbs.
- Average -- 6'2", 206 lbs.
Here are some more recent starters:
Antonio Bryant -- 6'1", 205 lbs.
Keyshawn Johnson -- 6'4", 211 lbs.
Terrell Owens -- 6'3", 224 lbs.
Terry Glenn -- 5'11", 196 lbs.
Dallas loves the big guys. Terry Glenn was the only productive Cowboys receiver who wasn't close to the prototype size (which incidentally, was Michael Irvin's height and weight).
It's not enough to have all the physical tools. Above all, the Cowboys want play makers. They play pro football, not track and field. If your speed, quickness and strength don't translate to broken tackles, first downs, touchdowns and make a consistent difference for your team, you're going to break your new fans' hearts and maybe get your front office replaced.
Check out this profile and tell me what's missing?
"Excellent athlete with rare speed. Exceptional deep speed and ability to separate from the defender. Can get open quickly. Jumps very well. Stronger than most receivers and is well built...
Lacks experience, judgment and really soft hands. Has a lot of trouble catching passes that he must come back to. Occasionally has some trouble tracking the flight of the ball... Inconsistent player.
Alexander Wright had one of the most impressive physical profiles I've ever read. He excelled at track. He bench pressed almost 400 lbs., even though he weighed just 185 lbs. His problem, as his highlighted profile from the '90 Scouts Notebook makes clear, was that he wasn't a true football player. Jimmy Johnson, a man who emphasized play making as much as any personnel guy, took a chance on Wright's numbers in the 2nd round that year and got burned. One year later, J.J. corrected the mistake, picking play maker supreme Alvin Harper to take Wright's place.
Does this mean Dallas doesn't look for smaller receivers? Not at all. Glenn is proof that smaller guys in the Steve Smith mold can catch Dallas' eye. In the next story, I'll point out how to be an exception to the big guy template.
In the meantime, here's an assignment. Run each of the five current receivers through the profile. Which skills does each possess? Which ones does each lack? How does each compensate for any shortcomings? Lastly, which would you classify as playmakers? How many fall short?
The number you come up with for that last question will tell you high high or how low receiver will land on the team's priority list. Leave your grades in the comment thread.
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This is why I laughed
When people said no to Desean Jackson simply because of his size. Size doesnt matter if you can play football and you’re a playmaker.
I’d kind of like to see Dallas take a look at Mardy Gilyard this year if they can fill either safety or offensive line first.
Hawkeyes n Cowboys. Bleeding Black, Gold, Sliver and Blue since 1987.
Yes is good but he lacks strength
He is close to a home run or nothing. Notice the closer to the goal line the less effective he seem. I like him in the second. I like Maclin more.
KICK ASS every day!!!
by squidlo97 on Feb 16, 2010 9:00 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
I don't think that's the only reason he dropped to the second though....
he had some character flaws that helped that.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 16, 2010 9:36 AM CST up reply actions
D-Jax
I looked everywhere and cant find the stats link I wanted, maybe someone can help me out…But of all those big plays Desean has made in his career, most have actually came against safeties, or linebackers. He has had a few impressive plays versuses CBs, but the majority have actually been him beating mismatch coverage, and he has far less receptions against corners. The report I read came out right around Week 17 and the WC, I will keep looking for it. He is an explosive player, but he is beating smaller and not as quick opponents…He sure disappeared when it mattered most though. The best WRs find a way to beat the double coverage, correct?
You say D-Jax is beating smaller opponents ...
But Jackson is one of the smallest players in the league. Doesnt get much smaller.
If anything, I think he’s exposing coverage from bigger guys who cant move like he does.
Smaller is not what I said
“most have actually came against safeties, or linebackers.”
That is not ‘smaller’ those are BIGGER players, but that are not as quick as Desean is…Reid and Marty Mornhinweg do a great job of getting him into great situations, and mismatches in the defense. But when he gets covered by the corners he is not nearly as effective
Here it is...
Yeah that was from KC Joyner…
CW: DeSean Jackson is a “matchup buster”
Jackson recently had a go-around with Dallas cornerback Mike Jenkins where he made the claim that he “get[s] man coverage like 10 percent every game.” The implication of this remark is that Jackson feels he has the skills to put up quality numbers regardless of the type of coverage he faces.
This type of observation basically begs for a metric review, so I decided to take a closer look at how Jackson performed when facing various types of personnel.
As would be expected, Jackson did his best when facing safeties, linebackers or no coverage (i.e. when he found a dead spot in a zone defense) — he caught 38 passes (out of 62 thrown his way) for 675 yards (10.9 yards per) and five touchdowns. The 10-yard YPA mark is the generally accepted bar for excellence at the wide receiver position, so posting a 10.9 YPA total in any category has to be considered superb.
Jackson does dominate whenever he faces overmatched competition.
Against cornerbacks, Jackson caught 26 balls (out of 57 thrown his way) for 494 yards (8.9 per) and four touchdowns. That’s good, on face value. However, there’s a caveat. Two of Jackson’s cornerback completions came when the cornerback blew the coverage and left Jackson entirely uncovered. While this technically counts as having beaten a cornerback in my system, it is worth noting that if the 89 yards gained on those plays were removed and the total recalculated, Jackson would end up with a 7.6 YPA mark when facing cornerbacks. Since the typical YPA average for wide receivers in a given season is somewhere between 7 and 8 yards, this total could be said to be middle of the pack. On that basis, I have to say that Jenkins was right regarding Jackson. Up to this point he hasn’t been much of a matchup buster this season.
http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2009/insider/news/story?id=4803974
Playmakers. Trick question, Raf?
Physically, all five meet the profile. In terms of playmaking, I guess Austin gets a pass, Crayton has been solid in some clutch situations but is probably not ‘playmaking’ caliber, Hurd and Ogletree we’ll have to wait and see. Leaves us with Roy Williams.
Here’s an excerpt from a scouting report by Tom Kowalski from mid 2007:
Williams has a wonderful blend of size and speed and he’s also smart and possesses gifted hands. What Williams needs to improve on, though, is his focus. When Williams is dialed into the game and the task at hand, he’s almost impossible to cover because he knows how to use his body to gain leverage and he can catch the ball in traffic.
However, there are times when defenses make an extra effort to take Williams out of the game early and that’s when his concentration begins to wane. It’s not necessarily pouting, but he loses some of his drive.
Coordinator Mike Martz believes that if Williams continues to improve his route-running (he was far from perfect last year) and understands the concepts of beating double-coverage that Williams could become the best receiver in the game. There really isn’t any reason why he couldn’t shoot for that mantle because he has the size to go over the middle, the hands to make the acrobatic catches and the speed to take every pass to the end zone.
Size. Speed. Smart. Gifted hands. Separation, and a hint of downfield blocking. (check)
Focus. Concentration. Route-running (uncheck)
Sound familiar? No question that RW has all the physical tools to be a playmaker. At this point though, I have to believe it’s a mental thing more than anything else.
by One.Cool.Customer on Feb 16, 2010 2:31 AM CST reply actions
Agreed...
Plus, it isn’t like he showed absolutely nothing this year. He had the great catch and run against TB for a long score, but he also had several other flashes where he would get the ball and make plays after the catch (see the first and third Philly game). The problem, like you said, almost certainly has to be mental at this point since he clearly possesses the natural skills to be a great WR. My thinking is that if Roy can improve this upcoming season (I know this will be the second offseason we are calling for it), and Dallas can add maybe a guy through the draft to add some more shiftiness/speed, then we could really have a great WR corps for the future with Miles Austin, Roy Williams, an improving Kevin Ogletree, and (insert rookie name here – preferably a guy like Jacoby Ford).
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on Feb 16, 2010 3:24 AM CST up reply actions
Ogletree
http://www.footballsfuture.com/2009/combine/wr.html
I think Dallas is well situated at WR. I wasn’t as bullish on Ogletree this year. After the year had ended I was looking at the combine results and I was surprised that Ogletree is bigger than I thought 6’1/2" @ 195 and clocked a 4.45 forty. Ogletree runs just as fast as Macklin who was the 18th pick overall. I got religion on Ogletree after I learned that.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 16, 2010 8:04 AM CST up reply actions
meant to say
I wasn’t as bullish on Ogletree as most Cowboy’s fans.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 16, 2010 8:04 AM CST up reply actions
Ogletree posted a 4.36
at the combine when he came out a year ago.
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=67894&draftyear=2009&genpos=WR
all FIVE meet the profile? I see ONE playmaker on that list
Austin has it. Destroys the big guys and was beating the big boys at seasons end.
Williams can be a playmaker — when he feels like it. That’s not a playmaker to me. He disappears too much.
Crayton can be a playmaker — as a slot receiver. When he was the #2, good corners disappeared him.
Hurd is too slow. Why can’t he crack the lineup? He makes plays when the team goes three or four wide and he gets a mismatch, but he’s never been the 1 or the 2, has he?
Ogletree gets an incomplete. I like him and with more reps, more weight and more coaching from Ray Sherman, he might be the next Austin clone. But it took Austin until his third year before he was ready. (He would have been in the linup last year if he had not kept getting hurt.)
Look at it this way OCC. If Austin broke his ankle in camp and had to miss the first 12 games, which of these guys could make plays week in and week out and carry the passing game?
I don’t see anybody.
Ah, come on caffeine!
that should read Austin destroys the weaker guys and was beating the big boys…
lol, I agree, there’s just one, and don’t start scaring me with broken ankle stuff …. I meant physically, they all meet the profile in terms of height and weight
by One.Cool.Customer on Feb 16, 2010 10:05 AM CST up reply actions
Your best receivers by far are Austin and Crayton..Williams..
In the playoffs missed a perfect dart from Romo..right through his hands and he was not in any position to do anything with the ball if he did catch it..Williams is not all he’s cracked up to be..Now even though Witten is a tight-end..they have had great success running him in the slot..Crayton is going to be a good one this year..they need to let him loose on posts ..and Ogletree is another guy they need to get in the game more..So when you do the math Dallas has a pretty damn solid set of receivers..Beef up that O-line and watch out..Really good things could happen..
"When I was a boy and had no sense I got my pecker stuck in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair and tickled my balls, and made me shit in my overalls"
I think the main thing lacking from Roy Williams’ game is confidence. He is/was playing with none this past year, and until he regains it, he’s not going to do much.
Hawkeyes n Cowboys. Bleeding Black, Gold, Sliver and Blue since 1987.
by HawksFlyHigh on Feb 16, 2010 12:03 PM CST up reply actions
I think it comes back to concentration
Why did Mike Martz give up on him, after saying he could be the game’s best?
Look at him this year. No attention to detail. He catches a bomb in Green Bay and then drops the ball. Late in the season he would catch balls over the middle and go into shells immediately to protect the ball, giving up yards per catch.
It’s ridiculous. It’s like having a guy who can dunk a basketball and swish 30 pointers but who can’t dribble.
How can you play receiver and have no regard — not protection, but regard — for the football?
by Rafael Vela on Feb 16, 2010 12:24 PM CST up reply actions
I think the Roy Williams assessment (i.e. hate) is getting irrational. Roy Williams was okay this year. And his career stats certainly give reason to be optimistic. I don’t think that RW is going to be the 2nd coming of Michael Irvin. I do think that he’s likely to be the 2nd best WR on the team. I also think expecting Ogletree or Crayton to develop into a better WR than RW is wishful thinking.
To address some of the comments.
"He catches a bomb in Green Bay and then drops the ball. Late in the season he would catch balls over the middle and go into shells immediately to protect the ball, giving up yards per catch.". Yes, he fumbled against GB. And Charles Woodson had five strips this year. RW isn’t the only guy that Woodson stripped. Sometimes you have to credit the opponents.
“Charles Woodson, the Packers cornerback who forced five fumbles and was the N.F.L.’s defensive player of the year, said he reached for the football on nearly every tackle he made. As a premier player, his success with the strip inevitably led to others studying him on film and trying to copy him. Woodson’s tendency started when he was younger and he could chase down receivers and slash at their arms from behind after a long pass. Even then, Woodson could sense the psychological blow of the strip.
"Once you get a guy to fumble once, he’s conscious of it," Woodson said in a telephone interview. "Now you take your shots. If a guy fumbles, he’s going to worry about that more than about what hole to hit. Then you’ve won."
Woodson has refined his technique since he first started and may be the best at the strip in the game today. As he approaches a runner or a receiver, he first makes sure he is square or at a good angle with the ball carrier, so that he can secure the tackle even if he does not get the ball. But as soon as he knows he is in position, Woodson said, his first thought is to block the ball carrier’s stiff-arm and take a punch at the ball with his free hand. "
"Late in the season he would catch balls over the middle and go into shells immediately to protect the ball " I’m surprised you’re simultaneously critical of him fumbling and improved ball security. After the strip by Woodson he made ball security a priority at the expense of YAC. Personally I thought this was a positive development.
I guess it comes down to Dallas fans’ general expectations. Scout some other teams and maybe you’ll appreciate the Dallas players a little more. Malcolm Kelly on the Skins for example. Great hands but he can’t get separation to save his life.
Finally, I think RW was simply pushing too hard. If you have a chance to re-watch the Philly playoff game, look at the screen pass at the 8 yard line to RW where he slipped. You’ll notice that before the snap he is clenching and unclenching his fists with such intensity that his forearms are literally popping out. He knows the play is coming to him and he’s clearly dying to make a play. I don’t put too much stock in anecdotal evidence however I do think this is indicative of how much pressure he felt to make plays and wants to deliver. He’s only 28. I personally can’t wait to see many good years of Romo, Austin, RW, Whitten, Bennett, Felix and Marion.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 16, 2010 4:22 PM CST up reply actions
I think me and you are the only ones with faith in him.
But thats okay. Its more fun to be right when many are so sure.
KICK ASS every day!!!
I would be happy if he did but as for being "irrational"
if a guy has one superb season, and several so-so ones, who is being irrational, the person expecting the outlier to be the anomaly or who expects it to be predictive?
i think the people who believe that Patrick Crayton or Kevin Ogletree are going to be a better WR than Roy Williams are irrational.
It’s the typical wishful thinking of Cowboy’s fans. The blind faith in undrafted free agents and projects blows me away. Yes, it can happen, but that’s the exception to the rule.
It’s far more likely that the guy picked 7th overall, that dominated in college, consistently produced decent seasons in the NFL, and was even selected as an all-pro, is going to be a better receiver than the undrafted free agent. I can’t believe that’s even controversial. It’s only the bizzaro world of this message board where that’s even debated.
Patrick Crayton is 30, he’s not getting any better. And while I hope Ogletree and Manuel Johnson turn into the next Miles Austin, the odds are against it.
I don’t think the people who think PC and KO would outperform RW if given the chance are being particularly realistic. If that’s not what you believe, then we probably agree, that RW is a better than average #2, and if he gets comfortable could be an excellent #2.
Take your comment. If Miles sprains an ankle, which Dallas WR do you think would be handle the #1 spot? Which guy is most capable of filling that role?
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 16, 2010 9:39 PM CST up reply actions
Based on what I've seen of Roy Williams the last two years, give me Ogletree.
That’s not blind faith. His small sample size showed that he has playmaking abilities. I’d like to see what he can do over the middle though, but I don’t doubt his deep speed. I doubt both of those characteristics in Roy. Cowboys fans have to wish that he can revive his career. Personally, I think there’s a better chance that KO can develop his.
BTB League Consolation Ladder Champ...thought you knew.
by Aaron Novinger on Feb 17, 2010 8:05 AM CST up reply actions
on grass is greener-ism
I’m exhausted with the grass is greenerism. As a general principle, if you think that x,y,z late round draft pick who is currently a backup, is actually better than the current starter, you’re probably wrong.
The smart default assumption is that the coaches are playing the best players. It’s actually an extraordinary claim that a late round draft pick, who is currently a backup, would actually be better than the current starter if only the coaches would play them. For me, I expect to see extraordinary evidence before I’m willing to believe extraordinary claims. That’s common sense. In the same way that before I’m willing to believe in UFOs, I want to more evidence than a grainy National Enquirer photo, before I’m willing to believe that Ogletree is better than RW, I would want to see several years of sustained production at a level better than RW. That’s just me.
Here on the bizzaro world of BTB, the standard of evidence is rather different. Extraordinary claims only require minimal evidence and the backups are routinely assumed to be better than the starters. Kevin Ogletree, 7 career receptions. Yep, this guy is probably better than RW, in spite of a long career that indicates that RW is starting caliber WR in the NFL.
It would be quite refreshing if the consensus was slightly more conventional. I know it’s not as clever as having bragging rights for touting Miles Austin before everyone else, but calling for bigger roles for x,y,z backup isn’t insightful, it’s a platitude.
To summarize, Bobby Carpenter is probably better than Jason Williams. Roy Williams is probably better then Kevin Ogletree. Terrence Newman is probably better than Orlando Scandrick. If you’re going to claim otherwise, it would be sensible to have excellent evidence to support that position. But I know, people don’t want to be bothered by little things like facts and evidence.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 17, 2010 8:28 AM CST up reply actions
We can only see facts and evidence when the guy plays.
The fact is is that they have a developmental guy in Ogletree. Roy Williams should not be a developmental guy, but he has played like one since he’s arrived from Detroit. There’s your evidence.
I don’t blame the coaches for keeping the starters in. But that was last year. Roy will have to compete for his old job. If one of the backups can unseat him, then so be it.
BTB League Consolation Ladder Champ...thought you knew.
by Aaron Novinger on Feb 17, 2010 8:38 AM CST up reply actions
Your argument is the same one I heard in 2006
when everyone thought it was bizzaro to start Romo over Bledsoe, the undrafted FA over the former overall first pick in the 1993 draft.
Same line of thinking but totally wrong.
In Romo we Trust
sometimes I wish Romo and Austin hadn't happened
because its going to be used as evidence that it would help to replace starters with their backups for the rest of my life.
From 2004-2008 there were 13 all-pro players that came into the league as UFA, or 2.6 per year (13/5). In a 32 team league, you’d expect each team to pick up an all-pro caliber player as an UFA once every 12.3 years (32/2.6). Dallas has Austin and Romo, so we may not be due for another 24 years.
Romo and Austin are the exception to the rule. There will always exceptions. But the smart default assumption is that the starter, who the coaches judge is better, who was the higher draft pick, is probably better. One this board, the opposite is true. The backups are routinely assumed to be better.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 17, 2010 9:05 AM CST up reply actions
I don't want the Cowboys to suck
I want your insipid comments about how great it would to play every late round pick and UFA backup to stop.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 17, 2010 11:21 AM CST up reply actions
I never made those comments
you obviously have mistaken me for somebody else. I simply said it’s wrong to assume that high draft picks are automatically better than free agents. Players should be judged by how they perform, not where they are selected in the draft.
BTW, if you wish Romo and Austin never happened, you most certainly are wishing the Cowboys to suck.
In Romo we Trust
My apologies
You’re right. You didn’t make those comments.
And to clarify, I said the smart default assumption is that the high draft pick who’s the starter is probably better (that’s different from automatically assuming the guy drafted higher is better).
Is this even meant as a serious comment though? Are you going to argue that UFA are just as likely to be good as 1st round picks? It’s silly. There’s a reason why they’re 1st round picks and why they’re free agent.
And of course there are exceptions to the rule (Romo, Austin, Ratliff). That doesn’t mean the rule isn’t valid though.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 17, 2010 1:51 PM CST up reply actions
no, thats not my argument
my argument isn’t that UFA are just as likely to be as good as high draft picks, but that they can be. Therefore, making assumptions about a player simply on his pedigree isn’t a very smart thing to do because there are a lot more exceptions to that rule than you think.
Going back to the original argument in the thread, Olgetree has clearly showed me more on the playing field than RW this past season, it wasn’t even close. That being said, RW will more than likely start not because he’s that much better than Olgetree, but because he’s due 9 million in salary and there’s no way Jerry is paying that kind of money to a player sitting the bench.
In Romo we Trust
My argument is
that there is a large body of evidence (318 career receptions) that indicate RW is a good NFL WR
there’s a a very small body of evidence (7 career receptions) that indicate KO is going to be a good NFL WR.
That’s enough evidence for you. Not for me.
And this salary thing is a red herring. The guys goods are on the field (Romo, Austin, Barber, Ratliff, etc). If KO is that good he’ll play.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 17, 2010 2:23 PM CST up reply actions
It's not a red herring
It’s an economic fact that Jerry is going to give RW every chance this next season to prove he’s deserving of being our #2 receiver and thats only because he’s due 9 million in guaranteed money. You’re simply kidding yourself if you think RW wouldn’t be in jeopardy of being cut if his contract was a lot less.
BTW, my evidence is what I see on the field, not numbers because football isn’t baseball, can’t judge by only stats.
In Romo we Trust
Romo and Austin are exceptions to the rule, just like Roy W is the big exception to the rule that high first round draft picks deserve to be on the field
This season Roy had the benefit of a full offseason and a full training camp and he was still running the wrong routes.
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
btw, in your eagerness to score debating points you misrepresented what I said
“if a guy has one superb season, and several so-so ones, who is being irrational, the person expecting the outlier to be the anomaly or who expects it to be predictive?”
I didn’t say RW was probably going to 1,300 yards next season and I did’nt say he’d probably be an all-pro next year. I said he’d be better than PC and Ogletree.
And even if I had said that, it’d still be more defensible than arguing that PC or Ogletree will have 1,300 yards or be an all-pro.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 16, 2010 11:29 PM CST up reply actions
Patrick Crayton was better than Roy Williams last year
Look at the stats from 2009 and it’s hard to argue that Roy Williams was or is better than Patrick Crayton. Crayton 37 catches out of 67 thrown to. 622 yards, 5 touchdowns. RW, 38 carches out of 88 thrown to, 596 yards and 7 touchdowns. RW has one more catch than Crayton with 21 more opportunities. Yes, 2 more touchdowns. How many times was he thrown to in the end zone compared to Crayton. 2, 3 times as often? Remember, RW was the No. 1 then No 2 receiver all year. Crayton was No. 2 then No. 3. But all in all, Crayton had the better year and the better stats. Face it, RW just sucks.
and after you finish looking at a single season
then go and look at the rest of their careers.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 17, 2010 11:19 AM CST up reply actions
This got me curious so I checked
Roy: 6 seasons total, 6 seasons as the #1 or #2 WR
319 rec 4,678 yd 14.7 avg 37 TD
Crayton: 6 seasons total, 4 seasons as the #2 or #3 WR
196 rec 2,888 yd 14.7 avg 23 TD
For being a #1 WR, Roy is terrible and as a #2 WR he’s mediocre. Crayton as a #2 WR is mediocre, but as a #3 WR very good.
The closest comparison would be when they are both at the #2 spot, and in that case, the results are similar.
Roy is an underachiever, while Crayton is an overachiever. It really comes down to Roy’s lack of drive and focus. Roy should have numbers that blow away Crayton’s, but he doesn’t.
Drago says, "We must break you!"
by APerfectStar on Feb 18, 2010 2:52 AM CST up reply actions
Ummm ... I'm kinda struggling to follow here
You look at there career stats. The stats aren’t even close. Roy’s are much better. And this proves that they are the same player????
1. If you’re going to make that argument you need to explain how you make the numbers apples to apples.
2. Don’t overthink. I’m not sure what you mean but if I understand correctly I think your logic is kinda backwards. I think you’re discounting RW numbers bc he was a #1 WR. Actually that fact that RW was a #1 WR and PC was a #2 / #3 is evidence that RW is a #1 WR and PC is a #2 (i.e. RW is better). Here’s a thought experiment. Do you think there’s a single team in the NFL that would sign / trade for PC and use him as their #1 WR?
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 18, 2010 7:08 AM CST up reply actions
Sorry for any confusion
I wrote that when I was falling asleep.
My point was that for the amount of playing time and considering the WR position played, Roy’s numbers are not blowing Crayton’’s numbers away. On the contrary, Roy’s numbers are fairly pedestrian as a #1 or #2. Crayton didn’t work his way into the top 3 until the end of his 2nd season (whereas Roy was a starter in his first game) and has put up fairly equal numbers.
Not denying Roy has better natural ability, but he doesn’t take advantage of it.
Oh, and I don’t think any team would take Crayton as a #1. But I don’t think any team would take Roy as a #1 either.
Drago says, "We must break you!"
by APerfectStar on Feb 18, 2010 6:01 PM CST up reply actions
I don't agree with this although I will compliment you on your comment..
No receiver is going to succeed if they telegraph to the defense at the line of scrimmage..the defense will be all over you like hornets..That is what RW does..He looks at Romo and it is obvious that he may get a ball thrown to him..When your a wideout, you make one glance at the QB and then have to be totally stoic..but you only do that when the QB is checking off at the line. Otherwise, you run your planned route.and come back after the football if need be..Every route has that built into it but it takes focus and concentration and you have to place yourself in a position to make the most yards after the catch..RW doesn’t or I should say hasn’t shown me that…
"When I was a boy and had no sense I got my pecker stuck in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair and tickled my balls, and made me shit in my overalls"
Telegraphing the play isn't why the screen play failed
I agree with your point that WR’s don’t want to telegraph plays.
Seriously, on the list of what makes WR’s successful, that’s way down the list behind route running, explosive ability in and out of breaks, speed, hands, size, toughness.
That play failed bc RW cut so hard that he slipped.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 16, 2010 9:48 PM CST up reply actions
Yes he did slip..your right..and I agree with you on what it takes to be a receiver..
But I ask..has RW demonstrated those skills?..I think not..Maybe they just need to throw him the rock more..I don’t know..I watch every Giants game and since my wife is a Cowboy fan I watch all of their games, and I just don’t see that guy living up to his potential..Maybe he will this year after being a couple of years removed from the “T.O.” syndrome..but if I was coaching the Cowboys I’d have him and Romo playing catch everyday, the entire offseason.
"When I was a boy and had no sense I got my pecker stuck in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair and tickled my balls, and made me shit in my overalls"
They played alot of catch last season and that didn't seem to help.
“All he does is catch touchdowns.”
BTB League Consolation Ladder Champ...thought you knew.
by Aaron Novinger on Feb 17, 2010 8:06 AM CST up reply actions
That wasn't a screen play..it was a down and in 20 yards downfield..
I just watched it on tape again..he slipped because he was totally out of position but he still should have caught the ball..He slipped a little because he knew he was out of position and he missed the catch..it went right through his hands..He didn’t even get a paw on the ball..that was a perfect pass he missed..again these analysts say he runs great routes?..Has great hands?..Well I don’t think so..As I commented down below they need to have him and Romo working together the entire offseason, or lose his huge, non-productive contract for guys on that team that want to play.
"When I was a boy and had no sense I got my pecker stuck in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair and tickled my balls, and made me shit in my overalls"
you're looking at the wrong play
it was a WR screen and he caught the ball cleanly. he went to make his move and slipped. he would have had a TD otherwise.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 16, 2010 11:27 PM CST up reply actions
I think we are referring to two different plays..I now know the play your
Talking about and yes it was in fact a WR screen and he did catch it..I was talking about the down / in pattern where Romo tossed him a BB and it went right through his hands..I’ll have to look again and let you know what quarter that was..I’m thinking 3rd Qtr, but wasn’t paying attention to the tape to determine exactly when the play I watched occurred…When I get a chance I’ll review it again and let you know..I do now know the play you are talking about..and your right on.
"When I was a boy and had no sense I got my pecker stuck in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair and tickled my balls, and made me shit in my overalls"
Well you may have a decent point here..
He was brought in to play with the biggest PIA in the sport..T.O…maybe that screwed him up..but all I see is a guy that is taking up a space on the field…I don’t know..he sure isn’t injured..so what is his problem?..These analysts say he has great hands and runs great routes..Again, I say that in that playoff game not only did he whiff the catch, he was way out of position to gain additional yards after the catch if he did catch it..that is my problem with that guy, he does that all the time to the point where Romo has no ‘confidence’ in him…So why have him out there?
"When I was a boy and had no sense I got my pecker stuck in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair and tickled my balls, and made me shit in my overalls"
oh, I agree
I think the team is gonna shop for another WR. I still think OL and FS figure in their thinking too, but if they see a WR atop their board when their pick comes up in round one or two, I’m thinking more and more that they’ll take him.
I've suspected WR for a while for other reasons
besides RW’s mediocrity I’ve got:
1) Add an exciting offensive player to the roster that won’t compete with Romo or Felix
2)Increase team speed as a broad catagory; a top topflight 1st round WR means the 5th WR is a better this year than last, making better special teams players
3)Add a player to a platoon that won’t directly threaten any one established player
Though, based on the criteria above, #3 is looking less relevant
But reasons not to:
What are we going to do with Roy Williams if he’s not starting? He’s useless on special teams. He seemed like a luxury but quickly became an albatross.
by AustonianAggie on Feb 16, 2010 2:27 PM CST up reply actions
any receiver we draft this year will not automatically start right away
It will give RW some incentive to get better and hopefully not make the trade a complete bust.
In Romo we Trust
I defer on the Williams breakdown
With Crayton he has good size, great hands, runs good routes, can get separation based on his route running and football IQ, and he can block. He lacks in breakaway speed, and doesn’t get off the line as well as he should. He worked on his explosion off the LOS last off-season, and seemed to improve a little, but like they always say, you can’t really coach speed. Not elite speed anyway. Still, he’s a very good slot receiver, and an adequate number 2 in a pinch.
When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather -- not screaming like the passengers in his car.
If Dallas drafted a WR in the 1st
we’d probably first see that player in the slot, hopefully using great speed while mismatched against a safety or similar
by AustonianAggie on Feb 16, 2010 2:30 PM CST up reply actions
why?
Jeremy Maclin started at Philly.
Hakeem Nicks was starting at NY.
Kenny Britt was starting at Tenn.
Jackson started the year before.
so did Royal
so did Donny Avery
and so on…
while thats all true
it would be a remarkable WR that could compete for a starting spot so soon, given our low picking spot, and our coaches ambivalence about using rookies.
by AustonianAggie on Feb 16, 2010 2:45 PM CST up reply actions
Those guys didnt have established starters ahead of them
Raf – You know as well as I do that Jerry Jones is not goign to let anyone (especially a rookie) start in front of Roy Williams, whom he gave a huge ransom for and a huge contract to.
I’m not saying that’s right, but you know its true.
I don't believe that
if he spends a 1st on a guy, he expects that guy to challenge for a starting spot.
The bigger question, IMO, is whether Dallas looks hard at WR in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd? I definitely think they’re looking.
Look at Dallas drafting tendencies
WR are the riskiest position to draft in the 1st round (i.e. highest % of busts). Some teams will not draft WR in the 1st round because of that.
Dallas is not that rigid. Dallas would have drafted Andre Johnson and Dwayne Bowe had they been on the board, they were gone and they took Newman and Spencer instead. However, Dallas is clearly closer to the “no first round WR” end of the spectrum. Instead, they’ve gone the veteran route to fill the WR position: Galloway, Terry Glenn, TO, RW. As an organzation they’re clearly not inclined to draft a WR in the 1st round.
If you’re suggesting the Cowboys will take a WR in the 1st round, it shows you don’t know the tendencies of the organization. It would be out of character for Dallas to do that. Hence, I judge taking a WR in the 1st round to be unlikely.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 17, 2010 8:37 AM CST up reply actions
Your right I don't see any reason why a kid can't compete for a maybe not..
A starting role but get in the games and play a productive role..I was hoping Nicks would have and should have gotten used sooner..and I can’t understand why they waited until the last game of the season to get Barden in there..With your guys I don’t understand why Crayton did not play a larger role..and Ogletree..I just don’t get it..The other thing that irks me is they let these receivers wear the wrong colored shoes..they should be solid white..the daggone sideline markers are white..on an out pattern their shoes give the refs a no brainer decision on whether they stayed in bounds. A receivers cleats should be pure white..If they change the sideline markers to green, then the cleats should be green..need to always make the refs question themselves before making a call.
"When I was a boy and had no sense I got my pecker stuck in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair and tickled my balls, and made me shit in my overalls"
Jimmy Johnson said it best...
Football players are drafted for what they’ve done , but are cut for who they are.
"The Most Dangerous Man in the world is the one with nothing to lose"
I'm happy with our receiving corp
Now could we use another playmaker and speedster, absolutely, but I definitely don’t think it’s a priority need by any means.
If somebody like Jacoby Ford is available in the 3rd or 4th rounds, I’d love to get him, but I think the first two rounds should be used to acquire more pressing needs like OL, DL or S.
In Romo we Trust
If there are no 1st round Olineman left
and Tate is sitting there, gotta go w/ him, unless someone else falls
by nicholas.rodriguez on Feb 16, 2010 6:27 PM CST up reply actions
Manuel Johnson
Here is a guy we drafted last year in the 7th round, who stuck around on our practice squad last year… a good possible project who doesn’t quite fit the cowboys mold. He is 5’ 11’’ 190 lbs, 4.41 40 yd Here is the breakdown of him after his junior year in college.
“Adequate straight-line speed. Good agility. Can plant his hips and drive out of his breaks to generate separation. Reliable route-runner. Secure hands. Can extend outside of his frame to make the tough catch. Tough. Courageous over the middle. Emerged as a senior and some feel he could be an ascending player. Looks to make a block at the second level. Good locker room presence. Negatives: Better football player than athlete. May lack upside. Marginal deep speed. Doesn’t make defenders miss in the open field.”
from www.nfl.com)
One thing you notice is that he is a football player. Despite not having the athleticism of most elite WR’s, he still was a star player for a very good OU football team. In a couple years, we may really see him making some plays as Joe Jurasek continues to work on his strength and build. Just another reason not draft a WR high in the draft. We still got a couple projects brewing in Johnson, Ogletree, and Hurd that could turn into Gold.
by WhiteMenCanDance on Feb 16, 2010 9:05 AM CST reply actions
Correction
This is after his SENIOR year in college, not junior
by WhiteMenCanDance on Feb 16, 2010 9:27 AM CST up reply actions
I don't know if I would have called Manuel Johnson a star player for OU.
He was ok, but he was really closer to the 3rd, sometimes even 4th option in OU’s offense.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 16, 2010 9:39 AM CST up reply actions
Manuel Johnson was OU's only big play threat
in 2008… Iglesias was more of a posession receiver, Gresham was more like Witten, and their running backs were mediocre. Johnson would have had close to 1000 yard season, and a more than the 9 touchdowns he had, if he not dislocated his elbow in a NASTY injury midway through the season… He did only miss one game from that which shows he’s tough, but it had an effect on the rest of his season as he wore a huge brace, and got a little out of sync with Bradford.
I’m not saying Johnson is our answer… but he has the talent and work ethic to possibly give the Boy’s something in the future… I mean, no one could have predicted Miles Austin would ever give the Cowboys more than a 3rd receiver.
by WhiteMenCanDance on Feb 16, 2010 1:54 PM CST up reply actions
I don't dislike the guy...
I just never saw him as a star player.
And I thought their RB’s were better than mediocre, when DeMarco Murray is healthy he’s one of the best all purpose running backs in football.
Of course that’s a big WHEN.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 16, 2010 3:17 PM CST up reply actions
Manny Johnson a STAR???
He was the third receiving target behind Iglesius and Gresham. And then they had a QB who will be a top 10 pick this year. And he played with Peterson in the backfield. He also played with at least two first round Offensive Linemen. And with all that, Manny Johnson was a star?
This is correct
Manny Johnson was a #2 or #3 target for most of his time at OU. But I would compare him to a Crayton type WR. He’s tough, runs good routes, does whatever the coaches ask him to do, and is hard to push off your roster once he earns a spot.
Drago says, "We must break you!"
by APerfectStar on Feb 18, 2010 2:58 AM CST up reply actions
I don't think Hurd should be seen as a viable project anymore.
I think he’s used up his time here. I can see Ogletree given time, and I forgot about Manny Johnson but he sounds like someone to keep an eye on in camp this year.
I disagree
Hurd is one of those players you need on the roster because he is a really good ST player and is a reliable back up who can make some plays when given an opportunity. You needs guys like that on the roster, especially your 4th or 5th WR.
In Romo we Trust
I think he can be replaced with a drafted player, or with Johnson or Ogletree.
I think after 4 seasons, he’s had his chance. At some point he becomes a progress stopper for younger guys to climb the pecking order.
Hurd is on my list of players to churn out of the roster. Also included on my list: Pat McQuistan, Corey Proctor, Jason Hatcher, Junior Siavii, Bobby Carpenter, Shaun Suisham.
Can we get off Barbies back yet.
He doesn’t deserve first round money, but I’d give him another shot
Michael Irvin to Keyshawn Johnson "I know where me and Rice belong on the top ten receivers of all time list, but who do you have in the bottom 8?"
I'm not on his back, an dhave never given in to the criticism he's been engorged with since he arrived.
I simply think he has shot his bolt here. He hasn’t been able to get anywhere on the depth chart, and everything he does, Jason Williams is supposed to be able to do better. One thing I noticed last year, though is that Bobby seemed to be still lost at times playing nickel linebacker. That doesn’t work for me after having been here for as long as he has.
he might have been better if he’d been kept at a certain position for the entire time, but he’s never caught on at any of the LB positions he’s tried. I’ve liked his effort at times, and I think he should get a shot in training camp, but unless he shows real imporvement, I’d say he nees to be churned out before the season starts. Like Hurd, he becomes a progress stopper at some point. All that is regardless of his draft position. I don’t really care that he was drafted in the 1st. That’s water under the bridge now, as far as I’m concerned.
"we do not draft players to be backups"
that’s going to be a point of a future story.
Sam Hurd has hit his ceiling. What he does can be replicated by a younger, cheaper player.
by Rafael Vela on Feb 16, 2010 10:43 AM CST up reply actions
I have to half-heartedly disagree.
If Sammy boy was a ittle faster, I think he could be a viable option at WR, but his ST play pretty much seemed to start where Keith Davis’ finished. You don’t normally get that from a Wr. He has good hands, and decent route running…not great…but also look at the value. I understand you may find a breakout star ST player in the lower rounds of the draft but Sam Hurd has done his time, put in his work, and is reliable on the field. I also must admit, for some reason I always had a man crush on Hurd. When it was him and Austin battling it out, I was alays pulling for Hurd. I was obviously wrong, and i’m happy I was, but Hurd has done everything right. You can’t promise that with a draftee
Michael Irvin to Keyshawn Johnson "I know where me and Rice belong on the top ten receivers of all time list, but who do you have in the bottom 8?"
You can't promise anything from a draftee
but if we draft a WR I can almost guarantee that he will have a much higher ceiling at the position than Sam Hurd. There is absolutely nothing wrong with churning guys like Sam Hurd in and out every few years to try to find better players.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on Feb 16, 2010 2:07 PM CST up reply actions
my point regarding Hurd
was that you always have to have some players on the roster who will always do the dirty work and receive none of the glory from the team’s success…the good soldiers who work hard and contribute in ways most fans can’t appreciate.
Hurd is one of those on the Cowboys so if you’re going to replace him, you have to replace those qualities as well as not every player on the roster can be a play maker. Gotta have the players who do all the dirty work too.
In Romo we Trust
I think it is much easier to replace Sam Hurd's special team play
than it is for Sam Hurd to expand his ceiling and become a great playmaker for Dallas. For that reason, it makes sense to me that he be on the short list of players likely to be let go this year (assuming of course we draft a guy in the first four rounds). Otherwise, the odd man out is Crayton, and while I think he can be upgraded upon, he at least has shown the ability to play well in the slot at times (namely when Joselio Hanson is covering him).
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on Feb 16, 2010 3:18 PM CST up reply actions
I agree totally...
I like Hurd but perhaps his ceiling his reached.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 16, 2010 3:48 PM CST up reply actions
I agree
Hurd is one of the guys you need on your team to handle the dirty work and not have to worry about messing up assignments or complaining about playing time. The surprising thing about Hurd is that he’s not even 25 yrs old yet. I think if it weren’t for the annual pay increases that veterans receive, Dallas would be content to leave him in place. But there will come a point when he’s making too much to justify being the #5 WR and ST player only.
Drago says, "We must break you!"
by APerfectStar on Feb 18, 2010 3:03 AM CST up reply actions
Hurd's time might be up
He’s reliable for sure. Great STer and he can step in for your starter or slot guy for a game or two. But after 4 years, he’s probably reached his ceiling. If there is no one else, he’s a good 5th WR. But he will be replaced if we can find a better receiver, even if his ST abilities are slightly less.
Terry you always make very good points..we should get together for a beer someday.
"When I was a boy and had no sense I got my pecker stuck in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair and tickled my balls, and made me shit in my overalls"
I like that Immortal AFB guy also..I'll buy him a beer anytime..He's a radar guy
Probably saved my butt..
"When I was a boy and had no sense I got my pecker stuck in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair and tickled my balls, and made me shit in my overalls"
I may be going there in the next couple of months..not sure yet..
But I will let you know..If I do I’ll let you know..I’ll be staying in Dallas..I used to travel there all the time and there is a restaurant that has my tie pasted on the wall for eating a 60oz steak, baked potatoe, vegetables, and a apple cobbler desert..I forget the name of the place but they cut my tie off and have it hanging on their wall with my business card..and I didn’t have to pay for the dinner..I just had to pay for it the next day..haha..I probably spent more money on the Tums and Rolaids then the damn dinner would have cost..lol..I think the place was Darryls Steakhouse or something like that..This memory lapse really bothers me because I’ve been there in Dallas too many times to forget where the hell I ate.
"When I was a boy and had no sense I got my pecker stuck in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair and tickled my balls, and made me shit in my overalls"
I agree...
I like Sam Hurd, I really do, but it seems ridiculous to keep a roster spot for him instead of another receiver that could be that playmaker. I understand he is a great ST player, but I think at this point he is just a progress stopper.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on Feb 16, 2010 2:02 PM CST up reply actions
Wes Welker
As a Texas Tech fan, I knew he could play football, but he isn’t 6 foot + and isn’t real fast, but the man can make plays, no question. You can find guys like that all throughout the draft. I think Welker is a great example of a play-maker who isn’t your prototypical WR.
Golden Tate
played Running Back in high school, and he excels at breaking tackles and yards after catch. He has solid hands, unlike Roy Williams, and I would compare him to Steve Smith. A very physical receiver who fights for the ball. With some NFL experience and coaching, Tate and Austin would give the Cowboys the best WR tandem in the league.
Negatives:
He is listed at only 5 11, however he is a physical player. This definitely does take him out of fade routes and jump balls, especially in the red zone.
Other than his ability to run after the catch, I love how he works with Clausen to get open when his pocket breaks down. Golden Tate runs back to the quarterback and is always looking to get separation. He would become a security blanket for Romo.
Golden Tate can believe it's not butter.
I know one thing...
if we draft this due he better be the next fng Jerry Rice as much as he’s been touted here.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 16, 2010 3:51 PM CST up reply actions
dude*
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 16, 2010 3:56 PM CST up reply actions
Dont worry
He will be.
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Feb 16, 2010 8:55 PM CST up reply actions
Trust me, I'm a doctor
Golden Tate can believe it's not butter.
If we draft Golden Tate
It’s probably in the first round which means we will have missed out on all the first round O Linemen. We will have missed out on all the first round safeties. Also means we wont get one of those positions until at least the third round, if that.
I dont mind Tate as a player, but a WR is far from one of our top needs. Personally, I would put WR behind OT, OG/C, FS, and DE/NT.
I just dont understand this idea that we need another playmaking WR to pair with Austin. It would be great to have, but not at the expense of the other positions we’ve been neglecting for so long, like our O Line.
Agree
We need to draft at least one sure thing (if there is such a thing) O lineman, and at least a good bet O lineman in the first 3 rounds. A safety would be the second need out of rounds 2 or 3. After that, I would say the next thing ought to be a quality KR/PR, who would hopefully be a possible backup WR or CB. Starting field position is an area that could definitely use some improvement. It would be nice to have another quality DE/NT or WR, but I think these are more pressing at this point. I still think Ogletree might be a quality WR, if ever given the chance.
Also, given the fact that about half of last year’s oversized draft class really has not been heard from yet (largely because of injuries) we already have a lot of bodies to look at. Therefore, in contrast to last year’s draft which emphasized quantity over quality, this draft should be mostly about quality rather than numbers. To that end, I would advocate trading up wherever possible, with the idea of drafting only 3 or maybe 4 players. Use the extra choices to move up as much as possible.
I like that plan
Move up a few slots when we can to get the player we want..
by nicholas.rodriguez on Feb 16, 2010 6:44 PM CST up reply actions
You might
get Jerry to trade up if there is some player in his top 20 that falls to 27. However, the Cowboys are already a 5th round pick short. I’m willing to bet Jerry trades down (maybe the 1st round maybe not) in some round to at least make up for that 5th round pick he is missing. With the unknowns of the current CBA situation, this is prime time for Jerry to amass players as upgrades and at positions fof need.
2nd round hopeful
Mardy Gilyard (n) – playmaker, game-breaker, kick returner and hopefully a future Dallas Cowboy
I like Jordan Shipley
but I guess he doesn’t quite fit the profile. around 6’ 180lbs. Damn it
Dear Mr. Grunfeld,
I apologize, on behalf of all Wizards fans, for whatever it is we did to you.
by returnofswagger on Feb 17, 2010 12:50 AM CST reply actions
I'd take that kid anyday..He's good..very good..
Alot of folks think ‘Size’ and ‘weight’ are important..I look for football players..they don’t give a darn about their size and weight, because they are football players..I’ll take brains over girth anytime..Yes the big guys are getting bigger but you can’t outrun a scooter…Who can hit.
"When I was a boy and had no sense I got my pecker stuck in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair and tickled my balls, and made me shit in my overalls"
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