Cowboys Draft '10, Part Four: The Small Shall Inherit the Ball
by Rafael Vela on Feb 17, 2010 5:00 AM CST
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PrintSuper athlete. Rare quickness, speed and acceleration. Great ability to adjust to the ball. Can jump through the rafters. Nice, soft hands. Excellent catching range. Will make the acrobatic reception. Quick into and out of his breaks. Changes gears well and has an extra gear nobody else on the field can match. Competes hard in games... a true game breaker."
-- Joel Buchsbaum, 1996 Draft Preview, on Terry Glenn
Terry Glenn measured just 5'10" and 184 lbs. at his combine. He didn't impress the scouts with his strength. He did however, run a 4.38 40. And that extraordinary speed made him. That extra gear helped him fly past secondaries. Glenn could get behind coverage from his first practice until the day his knee crumbled twelve years later.
Go back to those four qualities I outlined in Part Three. Speed. Quickness. Strength. Catching skills. Now, look at the many prospects who are deficient in one of those categories. We can pretty much eliminate players with suspect hands. But what of the guy who is small, and not strong? Or somebody who lacks a top gear?
He's still a prospect, if his speed can compensate for his lack of size. Look at mighty mites like Steve Smith, Eddie Royal and DeSean Jackson. They may not be tall, or have bulk, but all of them can run. Smith has a remarkably strong lower body, which makes him hard to tackle. All are play makers.
Consider, in addition, receivers who don't have top end speed. Guys like Patrick Crayton. He's not going to catch the 60 yard bomb, but he's going to be on the field on 3rd downs because he does the other things well. He blocks. He runs tight routes. He has the quickness to get separation, the hands to catch anything thrown his way and the guts to go over the middle.
This combination makes him a first down maker out of the slot and a valuable receiver in Dallas' three receiver packages.
A deficiency will likely drop a guy out of the top round. Smith was drafted in the 3rd. Royal and Jackson dropped to the 2nd, likely because they were short. Crayton's lack of speed dropped him out of the draft. The same is true of Wes Welker, who lacked height and ran a 4.65 at Texas Tech's pro day.
When you read through reviews guys who don't fit the Michael Irvin profile, ask yourself, are they football players? Can they compensate one shortcoming with other skills? Do you see them on the field on third down? Can they earn their keep on special teams while they learn their crafts, the way Sam Hurd and Miles Austin did? Not just as returners, but can they cover kicks? Austin made some splashes as a kickoff returner but he and Hurd stuck because they covered kickoffs and played as gunners on the punt coverage teams.
Being short or being a bit slow won't knock you off the Cowboys' board, but you need a lot of heart, and a lot of other skills as well.
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Interesting take.
Granted you don’t want to have all your receivers as clones, but I don’t see the pokes taking a WR until at least the 3rd. That man is Jordan Shipley, a football player. Get him and watch him start making plays from day 1.
When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather -- not screaming like the passengers in his car.
My prediction....
after this column at LEAST 5 guys clamoring for Golden Tate.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 17, 2010 7:03 AM CST reply actions
I'll start
I want a Golden Tate
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Feb 17, 2010 7:08 AM CST up reply actions
But there is a good reason for the push
He is a quality football player and will be a star in this league.
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Feb 17, 2010 7:09 AM CST up reply actions
I know...
that he has the potential to be a star in the league. I wouldn’t be opposed to him, but I do think it’s funny that it’s just assumed he’s going to be a bad ass.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 17, 2010 7:14 AM CST up reply actions
because he played for ND
If he would have played for a team like UConn, he wouldn’t be as highly regarded. Mayock has him rated as his 4th best WR prospect, so to say he’s a slam dunk can’t miss prospect is pretty ridiculous.
In Romo we Trust
Yeah...
Don’t get me wrong, he is MEGA talented and I wouldn’t be opposed to getting him in the bottom of the third, but I’m wondering why if he’s such a bad ass that he’s being projected as an early second rounder to late first?
Not saying that means everything, just wondering.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 17, 2010 7:35 AM CST up reply actions
he's a small receiver
Usually the prototype big and fast receivers are mid to high 1st rd picks, with guys like Glenn and Harrison being the exception to the rule and Tate is certainly no where near the talent of those two guys.
In Romo we Trust
Certainly no where near?
I don’t see how that is any more ridiculous than saying that he will definitely be a star. It actually wouldn’t surprise me if the only game you had seen him play was ND vs Pitt. But then again, you don’t need logic to support your opinions do you Terry?
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Feb 17, 2010 8:59 AM CST up reply actions
*any less ridiculous
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Feb 17, 2010 9:05 AM CST up reply actions
Not so much an impact
more a comment on a perceived trend
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Feb 17, 2010 9:08 AM CST up reply actions
*insult
(it’s still early)
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Feb 17, 2010 9:08 AM CST up reply actions
Haha...
Almost.
That NBC contract gets them on every game.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 17, 2010 10:19 AM CST up reply actions
Haha
true enough.
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Feb 17, 2010 3:16 PM CST up reply actions
I just see Tate as NFL ready,
and a very smart, useful player for any team, and I haven’t been this excited about a player coming out of college in a while.
I would love to see the Cowboys get him, but if they don’t, I’ll probably still support him.
However this year’s draft has a lot of talent, I have full confidence in Jerry that he’ll get a quality player for us for years to come.
Golden Tate can believe it's not butter.
anytime I see the words "nfl ready"
I think of Troy Aikman’s assessment of Stepfret Williams in his first minicamp following the draft (’97?), and a part of me wants to crumple up in the corner & cry…
Troy also thought David LaFleur woudl be the second coming of Jay Novacek
I wonder what he was smoking in his playing days that he would be so poor at that evaluation. You’d think he would know from experience by then.
I wouldnt mind him in the middle of the 2nd but I think drafting him anywhere before that is to high a price
then again, I did not want felix at the spot we picked him either. thing is i think he would be a nice fit, we just have more important needs. also i see him as overrated since he comes from ND
I think Raf explained this pretty well
albeit indirectly:
A deficiency will likely drop a guy out of the top round. Smith was drafted in the 3rd. Royal and Jackson dropped to the 2nd, likely because they were short.
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Feb 17, 2010 9:10 AM CST up reply actions
well lets hope so
i would love to see the guy but not if it cost us any more than a high 2nd rounder. you are right he does fit the description, and we could count on him for special teams. it be nice if a team signed one of our RFA and we got a 2nd that turned into Tate.
Agreed
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Feb 17, 2010 9:23 AM CST up reply actions
+1
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Feb 17, 2010 9:17 PM CST up reply actions
I want whichever guy most resembles Terry Glenn.
Wishful thinking there, but maybe a developmental Rocket?
BTB League Consolation Ladder Champ...thought you knew.
by Aaron Novinger on Feb 17, 2010 7:58 AM CST up reply actions
pound for pound
Terry Glenn was as good as any small WR (under 6 ft and 200 lbs) I’ve ever seen play in my 35+ years of watching pro football. When it came to getting separation and catching the ball, he had no peers.
In Romo we Trust
Hate to disagree
because I agree that Glenn was amazing and one of the best. But he is a notch below Steve Smith – who dominates despite never having a #2 working on the opposite side.
by JimmyJohnson on Feb 17, 2010 7:57 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah
I dug Glenn but Steve Smith is a more complete WR.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 17, 2010 7:59 AM CST up reply actions
Glenn was better than Smith....no question in my mind
If Glenn wouldn’t have had injury problems his entire career, he would have put up Harrison type numbers and a future HOFer.
I’d take Glenn over Smith without hesitation at all.
In Romo we Trust
.....really?
I mean I like Glenn but….REALLY?
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 17, 2010 8:35 AM CST up reply actions
This is the difference.
I saw Glenn as a very very very good WR, but I see Steve Smith as an elite WR.
Smith has more 1000 yard seasons with worse QB play.
I don’t think you just throw injuries out of it, because being able to stay on the field is one of the things that can make you a great player.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 17, 2010 9:12 AM CST up reply actions
I'm talking about pure talent and ability
and IMO Glenn was much more talented than Smith and had more ability. Just going by what I saw when watching them play.
In Romo we Trust
Fair enough...
I think speed wise, he probably was.
Although I’d argue that Smith was WAY stronger. That dude is small but he’s built like a train. He also was multi dimensional in the fact that before he could get on the field all the time as a WR he returned punts and kicks, with 6 total returns.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 17, 2010 10:23 AM CST up reply actions
It's really crazy to think
That Steve Smith and OchoCinco were on the same junior college team, if I do remember correctly
Michael Irvin to Keyshawn Johnson "I know where me and Rice belong on the top ten receivers of all time list, but who do you have in the bottom 8?"
Yep
That’s a ton of WR talent for a JUCO team.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 17, 2010 12:01 PM CST up reply actions
and then Ocho and Housh both played for Oregon St. together
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by Aaron Novinger on Feb 17, 2010 12:01 PM CST up reply actions
Steve Smith is better than Terry Glenn
Look at what Steve Smith has done with Jake Delhomme and Matt Moore. Imagine if he had Romo throwing to him, he would be mentioned with Fitzy and Andre Johnson.
Golden Tate can believe it's not butter.
for a couple of years, Steve Smith was
I’d say c2005 – 2008 Smith was the best WR in the NFL
by AustonianAggie on Feb 17, 2010 2:04 PM CST up reply actions
Definitely
He truly is a guy that commands a legit double team every time he steps on the field.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on Feb 17, 2010 5:23 PM CST up reply actions
not true
in the 2005 play offs Newman was burned repeatedly. Ever since that game, Newman has matched up well with him
by AustonianAggie on Feb 18, 2010 10:19 AM CST up reply actions
It's close
They are very similar types of WR. Glenn was a better route runner and maybe better hands, but I’ll give Smith the advantage in toughness and play-making ability. He can dominate games.
Drago says, "We must break you!"
by APerfectStar on Feb 18, 2010 3:24 PM CST up reply actions
First of all we are splitting hairs.
I love Smith and his toughness and strength. Smith could run by you almost as well as Glenn could run by you but Smith could run over your ass and Glenn cant do that..
Give me Steve Smith by a hair.
KICK ASS every day!!!
He really made some amazing catches.
Sideline grabs like I’ve never seen before!
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by Aaron Novinger on Feb 17, 2010 7:59 AM CST up reply actions
Wasn't it him who had two broken pinkies that curved permanently towards his palm as they healed?
It created a natural catching basket.
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by Aaron Novinger on Feb 17, 2010 8:31 AM CST up reply actions
Even the Bengals were unimpressed with Pacman....
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=NFL&line=167716&id=3127
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 17, 2010 7:24 AM CST reply actions
Lawrence Phillips II
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by Aaron Novinger on Feb 17, 2010 8:00 AM CST up reply actions
Funny you would mention Michael Irvin.
Since he was drafted by Landry the Cowboys have not drafted 1 WR of their own to make a Pro Bowl. In 22 years.
22 YEARS.
JJ the draft guru. Not.
Jerry loves his Free agent WR’s that don’t get on the field until their 30 or overpaying for some overrated WR like Roy or Galloway.
He will probably sign two guys that weren’t drafted and we can expect to see one of them on the field in 2016.
I just don’t see us drafting a WR anywhere in the first 4 rounds. . When we really needed one he didn’t draft one.
Which forced him to make the Roy deal.
Drafted Antonio Bryant
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 17, 2010 8:36 AM CST up reply actions
And who cares...
they have had probowl receivers, so who cares if they were drafted or not?
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 17, 2010 8:36 AM CST up reply actions
+1
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Feb 17, 2010 9:05 AM CST up reply actions
I'm going to repost this here because most people appear to be unaware of this
Dallas’ drafting tendencies.
WR are the riskiest position to draft in the 1st round (i.e. highest % of busts). Some teams will not draft WR in the 1st round because of that.
Dallas is not that rigid. Dallas would have drafted Andre Johnson and Dwayne Bowe had they been on the board, they were gone and they took Newman and Spencer instead. However, Dallas is clearly closer to the "no first round WR" end of the spectrum. Instead, they’ve gone the veteran route to fill the WR position: Galloway, Terry Glenn, TO, RW. As an organzation they’re clearly not inclined to draft a WR in the 1st round. Personally I think that’s worked well as they’ve avoided wasting draft picks and have filled the position with good players (Glenn, TO, etc).
It’s not natural to think about the action not taken so it’s often overlooked. But consider what hasn’t happened. Dallas hasn’t drafted Michael Clayton, Robert Meachem, Matt Jones, Troy Williamson, all 1st round WR picks.
If you’re suggesting the Cowboys will take a WR in the 1st round, you might want to reconsider in light of the tendencies of the organization. It would be out of character for Dallas to do that. Hence, I judge taking a WR in the 1st round to be unlikely.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 17, 2010 8:51 AM CST up reply actions
I think any 1st round WR drafted by the Cowboys
would have to fit the Irvin size prototype.
"Everybody wants something but nobody wants to pay the price" - Michael Irvin
Romo will be 30 in April
By that logic, I am very far from fat and well under 45
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
Now you are seeing things
Terry didn’t mention Romo that time ;)
Drago says, "We must break you!"
by APerfectStar on Feb 18, 2010 3:28 PM CST up reply actions
Holy Crap, You are right!
In my defense, I see Terry commenting and I assume that Romo is in there, as I am sure every one else does.
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
very funny
95% of my comments never mention Romo unless he is the topic of the thread.
In Romo we Trust
You make it sound like Dallas has had no production at WR the last 22 years
which is a lie and you know it.
Keyshawn, Glenn and T.O. played very well for Dallas. T.O. went to Pro Bowls. Glenn, according to his metrics, could have gone a couple of years.
You conveniently overlook Miles Austin, as if his Pro Bowl doesn’t count because he was undrafted.
Tell that to the Eagles, or Giants or anybody else who faced him this year.
This is the same guy that said he would trade...
spencer and jenkins for desean jackson… maybe logic isn’t the approach you should use here.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 17, 2010 9:18 AM CST up reply actions
and the eagles would make that trade in a heartbeat
and ByeDawk, and the rest of the NFL fan world would he here laughing at us — with cause.
my strategy
unless one of:
the OTs of Davis, Williams, or Campbell
the safety Thomas
the guard Iupati
is on the board when Dallas picks, then they should trade down and make sure to get one of the strong Safety class in the 2nd round. I also would not mind Tate if he falls to the middle 2nd (I doubt that but who knows, he is short and is no guarantee to run below a 4.5). I also like the C/G Maurkice Pouncey anywhere in the 2nd. I would be ecstatic if they traded down and still got him. He is projected in the middle 2nd.
I seriously doubt we trade down
From my understanding, this is supposed to be the deepest first rd since 1983, so there will be a pretty good prospect sitting there at 27 come April.
In Romo we Trust
yep...
this draft compared to last years is a polar opposite.
I actually see guys that could go to the third round that could be very productive players.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 17, 2010 10:30 AM CST up reply actions
WR Focus?
Rafael, I think you said in an earlier post that you plan to cycle through all the positions of need before the draft. Should we take anything from the fact that you are starting with WR? Do you think the Cowboys will spend an early pick on WR?
by doomsdayreturns on Feb 17, 2010 9:16 AM CST reply actions
I think he started with DE or pass rushers in Part One.
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by Aaron Novinger on Feb 17, 2010 10:40 AM CST up reply actions
i am always in favor of trading down.
there is always mammoth amounts of value in the 2nd round at least IMO. This year there will be the safteys Allen, Burnett, Asante, C. Jones, and R. Jones. Along with the C/G Maurkice Pouncey and maybe WR prospects Gillyard and Tate. Perhaps even a developmental Tackle.
I do hate trading down out of round 2, however.
"Everybody wants something but nobody wants to pay the price" - Michael Irvin
Ok I have a real serious question here
Do any of the guys here (i’m talking constant posters and writers alike, I trust you guys lol) feel that WR was one of the main reasons for not winning as much. I.E. Starting off slow in games, not putting up the points, losing close games…things of that nature
Michael Irvin to Keyshawn Johnson "I know where me and Rice belong on the top ten receivers of all time list, but who do you have in the bottom 8?"
I certainly think the WR corp (outside of Austin) was one of the problems (definitely not the main one though – I am looking at you offensive line) that contributed to our offense’s problems. There was no real consistency in the play of the receivers outside of Austin in the last eleven games. Roy Williams could never find a groove, Crayton could only contribute out of the slot sometimes, and the rest of the receivers (Hurd and Ogletree) only got marginal minutes to even try to contribute. Also, when I think back to the Green Bay and Denver games, it is undeniable that the play of the WR corp was less than acceptable and really cost us in those specific games (even Austin made the bad mistake in Denver).
The one thing I will say is that once we finally made Austin into the focal point of our offense (Oakland game and on), our corps in general looked a lot better as a result of fine-tuning the roles. Still though, I think it is self-evident at this point that our WR corps only has one true playmaker (in terms of consistency, skills, etc.) in Austin. For this offense to reach that elite level, that has to change. Ultimately, I think this means that Dallas should try to upgrade the position in the first four rounds of the draft. To get even more specific, I think Dallas should especially target guys who are more of a burner type of receiver with the ability to get off the line well and threaten guys deep. Adding this type of receiver in my opinion would help counter the blitz and expand the capabilities of our offense on the whole.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on Feb 17, 2010 12:25 PM CST up reply actions
Bottom Line
is that we need talent at the #1 WR spot and Roy Williams is NOT it
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Wreck 'em, Tech!
by Tortilla Pirate on Feb 17, 2010 12:29 PM CST up reply actions
I can agree with everyone who replied
RW aint cuttin it, unless he shows dramatic improvement next season, he’s on the bench in my mind. Also, i’ve wanted a true burner here since terry glenn, he managed, but was past his prime here. We’ve got the big guys who can go up and get the ball, and a few may even out run you..but not many. We need a guy like a glenn, or smith, or jackson. Maybe we’ll start getting some of the 15 yard cushions from the cornerbacks, like we always give.
Michael Irvin to Keyshawn Johnson "I know where me and Rice belong on the top ten receivers of all time list, but who do you have in the bottom 8?"
Austin demands cushions, don't kid yourself
The guy has legit 4.4 speed and can blow by pretty much any CB in the league.
In Romo we Trust
I usually agree with you Terry
But Austin is also a bigger target to get your hands on in the Press coverage, don’t kid yourself…agility has about as much to do with getting of the press as strength does
Michael Irvin to Keyshawn Johnson "I know where me and Rice belong on the top ten receivers of all time list, but who do you have in the bottom 8?"
Austin is certainly big and strong enough to beat press coverage
much better than a smaller receiver who isn’t as strong.
In Romo we Trust
Why....
is this even being discussed?
Austin regularly beat press coverage.
I don’t care if he did it by singing to the opposing defense.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 17, 2010 8:06 PM CST up reply actions
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by Aaron Novinger on Feb 17, 2010 8:17 PM CST up reply actions
If
youre referring to Miles Austin, he is a great #2 receiver. There is, however, a gaping hole where Roy Williams usually lines up
The Lyle Leong Bandwagon will Continue to Roll!!!
Respect Everyone....Fear No One!
Wreck 'em, Tech!
by Tortilla Pirate on Feb 17, 2010 1:05 PM CST up reply actions
I know
exactly what you meant.
If youre referring to Miles Austin, he is a great #2 receiver.
I just think he’s a#2
But we’re coming to the same conclusion via different paths. While we disagree on whether Austin is #1 or a #2. We CAN agree on the fact thatt RW is NOT gettin the job done.
The Lyle Leong Bandwagon will Continue to Roll!!!
Respect Everyone....Fear No One!
Wreck 'em, Tech!
by Tortilla Pirate on Feb 17, 2010 3:08 PM CST up reply actions
#2 receivers do not put up the kind of numbers Austin put up this year
If you think we can get a receiver who will better, you’re kidding yourself.
In Romo we Trust
they do
when youre #1 is a bust. But we can debate this till we’re blue in the face. Point is, Roy Williams, suxx
The Lyle Leong Bandwagon will Continue to Roll!!!
Respect Everyone....Fear No One!
Wreck 'em, Tech!
by Tortilla Pirate on Feb 17, 2010 4:46 PM CST up reply actions
What makes Austin a #2?
I know I won’t convince you that you are wrong, but I would really like to hear your reasons.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on Feb 17, 2010 5:24 PM CST up reply actions
OK
two things…
1. UNDRAFTED. He went undrafted for a reason. Is he talented? Of course he is.
2. Name me one other undrafted WR that was a long term #1 WR star for any team. Show me an offense where Austin would be a #1 receiver and Ill show you a passing offense that sucks.
PS: Dont get me wrong, I LOVE Austing. My girl asked me to buy her a Miles Austin jersey and I gladly obliged.
The Lyle Leong Bandwagon will Continue to Roll!!!
Respect Everyone....Fear No One!
Wreck 'em, Tech!
by Tortilla Pirate on Feb 17, 2010 5:31 PM CST up reply actions
Sez the Pirate:
“Show me an offense where Austin would be a #1 receiver and Ill show you a passing offense that sucks.”
Yards per start, 2009:
1. Miles Austin 103.2
2. Andre Johnson 98.1
3. Wes Welker 96.3
4. Sidney Rice 82.0
5T. Randy Moss 79.0
5T. Reggie Wayne 79.0
I guess this means EVERY NFL offense sucks, by your definition.
LOL!
Youre missing my point
You cannot seriously say Miles Austin is a better receiver that guys like on your list….sure maybe he’s better than Welker….and Im a Red Raider for cryin out loud.
I just dont think Austin would SUPPLANT those guys in terms of production. He certainly supplanted RWilliams. Show me an offense where Austin would supplant their current #1 and I’ll show you an offense that sucks.
The Lyle Leong Bandwagon will Continue to Roll!!!
Respect Everyone....Fear No One!
Wreck 'em, Tech!
by Tortilla Pirate on Feb 18, 2010 9:47 AM CST up reply actions
Dude your logic is sound
but you’re wasting your breath here.
These guys love their 7th round picks and UFA like a fat kid loves food.
Yes, it’s logical to be skeptical of claims that late round /UFA are superstar players because that’s a low probablity (e.g. 1% probability). It makes sense to require a large body of evidence to support that claim before it’s believed.
With that said, I disagree with you about Austin. I think we have a large enough body of evidence to say that Miles is in fact a legit #1 WR, although it’s reasonable to hold out final judgement until we have a another season of evidence. If he puts up another season like this next year its a closed case.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 18, 2010 10:06 AM CST up reply actions
Thank you!!!
…Mr. Voice of Reason
it’s reasonable to hold out final judgement until we have a another season of evidence. If he puts up another season like this next year its a closed case.
If Miles has another season like he did last season then I WILL consider him as good as Rod Smith or (gasp!) Drew Pearson, even.
If he does, I think, its time to look elsewhere for another option to Roy Williams.
The Lyle Leong Bandwagon will Continue to Roll!!!
Respect Everyone....Fear No One!
Wreck 'em, Tech!
by Tortilla Pirate on Feb 18, 2010 11:53 AM CST up reply actions
Who says that he is as good as Smith?
Maybe he will fall way back to earth and become a nobody, but your argument that he isn’t a #1 WR is beaten up with film footage and statistics.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 18, 2010 3:35 PM CST up reply actions
MAN!!!
I said I WOULD “consider” him as being as good as Rod Smith…as in MAYBE.
but to blindly annoint him as our #1 WR is just wrong. As Fan said….the ODDS are NOT in our favor. Remember, Ogletree, Austin, Crayton, and Hurd are basically the same guy. OK, Crayton was actually a 7th rd pick, but they were all undrafted. If we can say we got a stud receiver in Austin out of the lot then we’re playing with house money. We win!
Hell, the Lions drafted THREE WRs in the top 10 and got ONE productive receiver out of the deal. Wait! we’re stuck with one of those guys which is kinda why we’re having this debate now.
Id want. Id Love to see a repeat performance from Austin next season. I would welcome it. But again. You have to play the odds. You wanna sign him to a long term 15-20 million dollar/year deal? Go ahead, but how many WRs had ONE great season only to never be heard from again.
Williams posted THIS in 2006: 82rec’s for 1310 yds. only to fall off the face of the earth after that. If you wanna take THAT kinda chance on Austin, then do so at your own risk my friend.
The Lyle Leong Bandwagon will Continue to Roll!!!
Respect Everyone....Fear No One!
Wreck 'em, Tech!
by Tortilla Pirate on Feb 18, 2010 4:51 PM CST up reply actions
So because Roy Williams....
had 1300 yards and than fell on his face it should mean the same for Miles Austin who is a totally different person and player?
I’m watching ability. He gets seperation, he breaks tackles, and he makes tough catches.
This isn’t a guy that is beating up on nickel corners, he’s a guy who had one of the best YACS in the NFL against top CB’s.
You are putting way too much stock in “undrafted”.
He’s a 4 year veteran now, it’s not like he’s this guy that just walked off the streets.
PS I bet there are less players that have 1300 yard seasons and then fall off the face of the earth than end up having productive careers.
BTW it’s not “annoting”, it’s not like everyone is saying “this guy is Jerry Rice”, but right now he’s the #1 WR on the team.
He earned it, no one gave him shit.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 18, 2010 10:51 PM CST up reply actions
as I said you’re wasting your breath.
btw, TP, I understand your point perfectly. I understand that you aren’t discrediting or discounting Austin’s acheivements, that you’re simply saying a certain amount of skepticism is called for considering the circumstances.
there is an irony, that the same people who say that Austin putting up 1,300 yard is indisputable proof that he awesome, will laugh if you say RW putting up 1,300 yards is proof that RW is awesome.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 19, 2010 7:27 AM CST up reply actions
They aren't the same player.
Being skeptical for giving a guy 15 million dollars after one big year is realistic, but we aren’t talking about that.
He might fall flat on his face, but he’s shown the ability to be a #1 WR in every viable statistic.
Roy had that ability, it was never about physical ability with him. He lacks concentration and seems lazy.
Maybe Austin just crash’s hard, maybe so, but right now… as of today he is Dallas’s #1 WR and I bet there would be plenty of people who would take a chance on him.
You’re putting words into peoples mouths.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 19, 2010 8:41 AM CST up reply actions
let me ask you a simple question
Is RW a #1 WR?
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 19, 2010 9:14 AM CST up reply actions
Not now...
He was in 2006, but why is that relevant?
Michael Clayton was a first round pick that had an incredible rookie year and then faded quickly.
Does that mean that every wideout that is a first rounder, and has a big rookie year, is destined to fall flat on their face the next year?
Roy Williams and Miles Austin, aren’t the same guy or type of player, so why is it relevant that they are compared?
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 19, 2010 11:21 AM CST up reply actions
RW has a 1,300 yard season, same as Austin. But we can’t conlcude RW is a #1 WR. Why not?
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 19, 2010 11:26 AM CST up reply actions
because he clearly isn't as good
Anyone with a half brain and eyes could easily see that this past season
In Romo we Trust
you realize
that this exactly what Im saying from the opposite perspective??? Fan in thick is saying this too.
The REASON you can say that about Mr Williams is you have EIGHT years of statistics to back that up. Anyone with half a brain and one eye can see that. Miles had 19 career catches before this season.
The point we’re tryin to make is that let not give Austin a R Williams level contract just yet. He has earned his payday. He has earned his Spot…#1 if youd like. Just dont annoint him the second coming of Michael Irvin (or Drew Pearson, or Rod Smith) just yet like Luke and som many people on this thread did.
Jerry can pay this guy as little as 3.68 million a year. I say pay the guy his 6-7 million and lets see how things shake out. If Austin blows up AGAIN next season, Im sure Jerry will gladly rework his contract.
The Lyle Leong Bandwagon will Continue to Roll!!!
Respect Everyone....Fear No One!
Wreck 'em, Tech!
by Tortilla Pirate on Feb 19, 2010 3:45 PM CST up reply actions
Being skeptical for giving a guy 15 million dollars after one big year is realistic, but we aren’t talking about that.
YES, that is EXACTLY what Im talkin about.
Look, we’re stuck with Roy “alligator arms” Williams for six years and $54 mil. Make the most of it. Leave him on the field and if Austin continues to outplay him then so be it. In the meantime draft a guy with a pedrigree that MIGHT overtake them both
The Lyle Leong Bandwagon will Continue to Roll!!!
Respect Everyone....Fear No One!
Wreck 'em, Tech!
by Tortilla Pirate on Feb 19, 2010 12:59 PM CST up reply actions
NOW,
who is putting words in people’s mouths?
[RW]had 1300 yards and than fell on his face it should mean the same for Miles Austin who is a totally different person and player?
Where did I say that? I will tell you. NOWHERE.
Im just saying that while laying eggs after his 1300yd season for Roy Williams is a reason for being skeptical of him being a #1 WR, the same could be said of M Austin’s undrafted status. Sure they put up ONE big statistical season, but insert their particular reasonable question to make you skeptical. That’s all Im saying.
Im also not saying Austin didnt earn his status last season. If your otherwise #1 WR (RW) didnt consistantly drop passes, run the wrong route, or make the wrong reads, a void would not have been created for Miles Austin to fill. I, for one, am glad he was there to fill it.
The Lyle Leong Bandwagon will Continue to Roll!!!
Respect Everyone....Fear No One!
Wreck 'em, Tech!
by Tortilla Pirate on Feb 19, 2010 12:22 PM CST up reply actions
PS:
Roy Williams 2006: 16g 82rec 1310y 16.0avg
Roy Williams 2007: 12g 64rec 838y 13.1avg
Miles Ausitn 2009: 16g 81rec 1320y 16.3 avg
Miles Ausitn 2010: ????
I would NOT want anything to do with laying a bet on what Austin’s #s will be next year. Would you?
The Lyle Leong Bandwagon will Continue to Roll!!!
Respect Everyone....Fear No One!
Wreck 'em, Tech!
by Tortilla Pirate on Feb 18, 2010 5:00 PM CST up reply actions
Slightly skewed take
These guys love their 7th round picks and UFA like a fat kid loves food.
Uh, no. These guys love WR’s who produce numbers like Miles did. Draft position has nothing to do with it. (And not all fat kids love food, some are just big-boned.)
I don’t think it was a fluke that he posted those 2009 numbers, but if anyone requires a repeat performance to be convinced, I have no objections.
Drago says, "We must break you!"
by APerfectStar on Feb 18, 2010 3:36 PM CST up reply actions
+1
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 18, 2010 10:33 PM CST up reply actions
Seriously?
There are very few times I adamently agree with Terry, but this is one of them.
1. He did go undrafted for a reason, but who cares at this point? There are tons of undrafted or guys drafted late that succeed.
Marques Colston went in the 7th, there was a reason he went in the 7th but that doesn’t make him any less of a #1 WR.
2.Drew Pearson and Rod Smith are two, but that doesn’t matter.
Talent is talent. If he’s a WR beating #1 CB’s than that makes him a…. what?
- WR
Playing the “he was drafted here” card should mean that Ryan Leaf should have been a perennial pro bowler, but he wasn’t.
Did Mike Leech put you in the shed or something?
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 17, 2010 8:04 PM CST up reply actions
You and Sharksbreath should get a room or something.
Those reasons are just unbelievable. Do you dislike Tony Romo as well? Do you think Kurt Warner was never that good? I just can’t believe you think that you have a legitimate argument. This team had one of the best passing offenses in the league and Austin was clearly the number one receiver. If you need proof of that, look at targets down the stretch of the season, look at catches relative to all other receivers on the team, look at how Austin was given the inside WR role after the Oakland game, look at basically almost any WR stat comparing the Cowboys receivers, and it is clear that Austin is the #1.
Feel free to stick to your opinion, but I don’t see how you can possibly justify it.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on Feb 17, 2010 9:01 PM CST up reply actions
fans who discredit a player because he was undrafted
simply have no clue what they’re talking about whatsoever. The draft process is an inexact science and basically a crap shoot, guessing game, there are a lot of very talented players with ability who go late in the draft and undrafted.
In Romo we Trust
You are absolutely right
By the logic set forth above, Dallas needs to replace the following players, because their pedigree is not good enough:
Tony Romo
Miles Austin
Jay Ratliff
Tashard Choice
Marion Barber
Actually, Romo can be replaced by McGee, b/c Mcgee was drafted and Romo was undrafted so he obviously must be better, and Miles should be at best the second target in the passing game because Roy was a 1st rounder and Dallas gave up a first and a third for him. Ergo, Roy is obviously the better player, no need for further discussion.
As you have pointed out in the past, Miles and Romo went undrafted at least in part because they went to small schools and there were questions about the competition they faced
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
I'm going to explain this for the statistically challenged
let’s say someone tells you they can correctly pick the winners in roulette (a 1/32 probability). If you have any sense, would require a lot of evidence before you believe that claim. Seeing them pick one winner wouldn’t be sufficient. You’d want to see them do it repeatedly before you believe the claim (just like you might not want to annoint Austin a #1 after seeing 1 great season).
Now if someone says they can make money at blackjack by counting cards (which is a roughly 51% / 49% with correct basic strategy), it would make sense to believe them with a lower burden of proof.
Now personally I think we’ve got enough evidence to say that Austin is a #1. But I also think it’s perfectly sensibly for TP to be still be a little skeptical.
And BTW, your whole point is a straw man. No one is arguing that you UFA can’t be stars. Just that extra skepticism is called for. That’s totally rational.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 18, 2010 11:47 AM CST up reply actions
Maybe you should stop explaining on this board...
because your starting to rub people the wrong way with your condescending bullshit.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 18, 2010 12:21 PM CST up reply actions
maybe i'll write whatever I feel like
you can choose to:
-ignore it,
-reply,
-not reply.
what i write on this board matters less than nothing. i promise I’ll bored with this very quickly. If fact, if you stopped replying to every comment I make with some illogical comment I’ll get bored and stop posting even faster.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 18, 2010 12:43 PM CST up reply actions
PS:
if Austin can become the next Rod Smith, (the most successful undrafted WR in NFL history) I will be one happy fan. But you certainly cant say that R Smith was ever a #1 WR for John Elway. If he was it was for lack of options.
The Lyle Leong Bandwagon will Continue to Roll!!!
Respect Everyone....Fear No One!
Wreck 'em, Tech!
by Tortilla Pirate on Feb 17, 2010 5:55 PM CST up reply actions
Uh, Rod Smith was a number one
- is based on PRODUCTION.
Draft position doesn’t matter. Andre Johnson was the only other receiver on par with Austin on a per-game basis this year.
You can call him a purple cow if you want, but he’s a #1.
+1
This is an argument I never saw having to have.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 17, 2010 7:42 PM CST up reply actions
No joke...
He’s 15th all time in receptions and 16th in receiving yards and was a 2X ALL PRO.
If Rod Smith wasn’t a #1 WR, then what the hell is a #1 WR?!
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Feb 17, 2010 8:09 PM CST up reply actions
I honestly have no idea what he is thinking.
That is one of the worst arguments I have heard in a while.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on Feb 17, 2010 9:02 PM CST up reply actions
Hey Pirate, Drew Pearson was Roger's #1 receiver in the 70s
and he was undrafted….when the draft was 17 rounds!!!
Try getting a clue for crying out loud.
In Romo we Trust
Maybe the GB game.
and while we didn’t lose because of a WR, you never know what one player’s ability to stretch the field will do for a team, especially when Dallas already has 1 stud WR in Miles Austin.
Until Austin started, Dallas’s starting two WRs must of been the slowest in the league
by AustonianAggie on Feb 17, 2010 1:52 PM CST up reply actions
Also this just in
off topic Nick folk to tryout with the Jets and the GIANTS this week
Michael Irvin to Keyshawn Johnson "I know where me and Rice belong on the top ten receivers of all time list, but who do you have in the bottom 8?"
I'd trade Barber or Choice for him
which one they want? I’ll trade both!
I know he’s (Cromartie) been up and down, but you can’t replace the fact that he was once awesome in the NFL, is young, and could be awesome again in the future
by AustonianAggie on Feb 17, 2010 1:58 PM CST up reply actions
I notice a lot of DTs and Ss at the top of a lot of draft boards
more DTs than DEs, and seemingly as many Safetys as CBs. I think this is the year Dallas gets a stud Safety
Not sure if this has been posted.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4920302
I would do it for Barber!
That
is exactly what Ive been sayin…
The Lyle Leong Bandwagon will Continue to Roll!!!
Respect Everyone....Fear No One!
Wreck 'em, Tech!
by Tortilla Pirate on Feb 17, 2010 3:10 PM CST up reply actions
The Chargers might not have a better option than MB3
Really, they have two crappy RBs, and would kill for Barber. I would make the trade if the Chargers were offering a good O lineman or a top draft choice. I would not, however, make a trade for Cromartie. That guy is terrible.
by Sweet Jethro Pugh on Feb 17, 2010 4:38 PM CST up reply actions
Cromartie and a draft pick
for the Barbarian
The Lyle Leong Bandwagon will Continue to Roll!!!
Respect Everyone....Fear No One!
Wreck 'em, Tech!
by Tortilla Pirate on Feb 17, 2010 4:47 PM CST up reply actions
You think A.J. Smith is a moron?
He’s gonna give up a quality CB AND a pick for a back with four years of wear on his treads?
Not a chance.
You wanted an Undrafted WR that was a #1 for years?
Just proves you are a recent fan or bandwagon fan..
DREW PEARSON.
And not sure about
Steve Largent. Cannot remember if he was drafted. Of course back then the draft had a lot more rounds which makes Pearson’s story even more incredible.
LOL
Yeah, that Drew Pearson,
Poor Roger Staubach “didn’t have any options” so he had to throw to loser Drew.
LOL
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