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Around SBN: Knicks Beat Lakers With Familiar Strategy

In the NFL Draft, Failing to Plan Means Planning to Fail

 

If you want to be successful in the draft over the long haul, you need to have a plan. Do you jettison your 30-plus-year-old players to other teams in favor of stockpiling picks like New England? Do you place more emphasis on offensive and defensive linemen with your top picks like the Steelers? Maybe you trade down more than other teams to amass more middle-round picks and fill in the bottom of your roster with youth like the Cowboys did last year while building your front line team from the free agent segment?

 

Whatever you do, you need to have a plan. The one thing that tends to be a friction point in any draft-related discussion is whether to use the Best Player Available (BPA) strategy or use the draft to address specific needs on the team.

 

I’ve thought about this a lot over the years and I think the idea of being able to play the BPA game, in the purest sense, is limited to the teams of dynasty and teams of ineptitude.

 

For instance, the Saints may be in a better position to look at the draft and take the highest ranked player on their board regardless of position. And why not? They are the reigning champions and that means they can make the argument that they have the fewest holes (Free Agency defections notwithstanding) of any team in the league.

 

By the same token, the Saint Louis Rams can probably benefit from taking anyone, anywhere of high caliber in the draft and benefit on the field from that improvement in talent level. For instance, is their primary need a DT? No, but if he’s #1 on their board, then by all means, they should take him. The draft was designed to accelerate Pete Rozelle’s view that parity was vital to the success of the league. Getting the best players to the least successful teams was the best way to execute on that strategy.

 

That doesn't mean that both teams are without needs but their situations are such that they, more than other teams, can let the draft come to them in a way the Cowboys, Eagles and others would not…or should not.  

 

Teams that are on the cusp, or are trying to backfill a major free agency loss, have to temper those BPA ideas with the need to fill a specific position(s) with younger and/or better talent.

 

San Diego is in this situation. They have huge needs at NT, CB, Safety, Running Back and Right Tackle. I really don’t think they can afford to take Sam Bradford (I’m being egregious for the sake of argument here) if he is there when they pick. He may be the BPA, but he is way outside their areas of need.

 

Dallas is in this situation too. Dallas' needs are much more specific because they are viewed as being a few positions away from being able to reach the pinnacle. They need help on the O-line, first and foremost. They need help at NT. They MAY need help at Safety, depending on what Sensei does. They do NOT need a running back. So if CJ Spiller (again, egregious here…) is the BPA at 27, he’s not a good pick for this team.

 

Now, I'm of the opinion that Dallas is best served by moving UP in this draft, using pieces like Telly B and Choice to move up 10-12 spots to get a franchise LT. I also think they would benefit by looking at a Nose Tackle in the 2nd round (and not a WR or a Safety) for reasons I haven't been shy about espousing the virtues of.

 

It is not logical to think that Dallas can strictly use a BPA strategy or the tried-and-failed strategy of trading down and subsequently carpet bombing the draft with picks in the 3rd through 7th rounds, given that there aren't a lot of impactful spots on this roster that are up for grabs. No, I think Dallas needs to do some things that are uncharacteristic of how they’ve approached the draft in recent years and really TARGET, and by extension, aggressively reach for some players who can positively impact this team in the next 2-3 years. I don’t see how any draft by the Cowboys could be viewed as a success without coming away with an OT in the first 2 picks. I won’t weigh in on WHO I like just yet because I am still looking at video (and let me say, I continue to be amazed at the amount of highlight reel stuff available on the web! You couldn’t get that stuff 15 years ago when I was forced to buy every draft magazine in sight) of the players and am only part way through the Combine, but the point is the point. In fact, you all can stake a claim to who you like…

 

In the end, Dallas needs a plan. A plan that becomes a roadmap for building a team that is competitive year in and year out. I don’t care if it is Ciskowski’s board or Stephen’s ‘locker room chemistry’ or even coins getting flipped that carries the day, but as a fan, I want to be able to articulate the plan to anyone who asks. It’s long past time for Dallas to take on a Draft Identity. This is a great year to start.

 

GO COWBOYS!

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Good post

And I’m sure I’ll have comments down the line too. But I wanted to point out quickly that the Cowboys have been trying to build a championship caliber defense for a quite a while now using their first-rounders. In the meantime, good-to-great scouting has found some absolute gems in the later rounds.

Movie Reference

by accidental innuendo on Mar 15, 2010 7:45 PM CDT reply actions  

But can you really focus on one side of the ball and be considered a good drafting team?

There are instances when you need to reach. I would suggest that this might be one of those times for Dallas.

However, focusing your draft strategy around the defense makes the chances of missing out on the higher impact player much more likely.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 15, 2010 11:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Defense wins Championships

At least that was the BP theory. Remember, he believed you could win with a “bus driver” and strong running game.

And the boom/bust rate of O vs D (as OCC has so eloquently demonstrated) favors LBs…the heart of a 3-4. Further, the switch to the 3-4 really demanded an overhaul.

I think every team has had periods of focus on one side or the other. Pittsburgh and New England come to mind.

He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. - Thomas Jefferson

by Fighter15 on Mar 16, 2010 8:40 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

And yet both the teams you mention have their high-profile QB's serving as the face of their teams

Neither Ben nor Brady would be confused with a bus driver, would he?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

They're pretty close...

but Polamalu actually is the top selling jersey for the Steelers.

John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 17, 2010 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

Turn on ESPN

What are they reporting on?

And who are they paying the big bucks to?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Polamalu is actually the hair of the franchise

to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''

by APerfectStar on Mar 17, 2010 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's not what I asked

Isn’t it?

Well…no

Isn’t it…

…yes

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh that crazy BP and his wild theories.

By the way, whether or not Simms was ever anything more than a pretty good QB, during the ’86 regular season he failed at one of the basic commandments of being a bus driver throwing 22 picks.

by MadMick on Mar 16, 2010 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

Doesn't he hold the record for passing efficiency in a Super Bowl?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes. In the same exact postseason that followed up the aforementioned '86 regular season.

I didn’t bring up that figure to knock Simms but rather to point out another false piece of mythology about the Parcells way. Simms threw 18 picks in ‘84 and 20 in ’85. I’m guessing that’s why we have all those great clips of Simms and Parcells cussing each other out. Also, those Giants defenses were certainly able to cause turnovers of their own to cancel out Simms’ errors.

But I’m guessing that many folks remember Simms as “22-0f-25 against the Broncos in that one Super Bowl” Simms and not the guy who was shaky in the middle part of his career.

In a nutshell, even if Parcells believed you could win with a bus driver, it didn’t stop him from sticking with a guy who threw a lot of picks. So again the “Parcells believe this and believed that” stuff is as misleading as Fighter’s long-running issues with those dirty damn stats.

by MadMick on Mar 16, 2010 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think those were the years Parcells quadrupled his calorie consumption

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's not my belief

Those were quotes from BP himself. He coined the term.

He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. - Thomas Jefferson

by Fighter15 on Mar 16, 2010 6:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yep

F15, do you think it still holds true as much now as it did when he was in his glory years?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 10:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

I didn't believe it then

But it does explain the draft process.

My whole point is that your premise that the ‘Boys don’t have a draft plan is misleading at best…hack blogging at worst.

And it’s not as if they didn’t try on the offensive side. Their 2nd round (and usually, their second pick of any draft) is chock full of offensive players. As is the 3rd and 4th rounds…all premium draft choices.

The fact that they busted on many of the picks (but at or about the normal 50% average of all teams) especially on the offensive side may give the impression, but it’s false. Just look at the post-Aikman drafts:
- ’01: Quincy Carter with 1st pick in draft (2nd Round)
- ’02: Gurode & Antonio Bryant in the 2nd (6 of 8 total on Offense)
- ’03: Al Johnson in 2nd. (3/7 total)
- ’04: 1st 3 picks in Jones, Rogers, Peterman (5/7 total)
- ’05: Marion Barber in 4th (2/8 total)
- ’06: Fasano in 2nd (4/8 total)
- ’07: 3 of top 4 picks (5/8 total)
- ’08: 3 of top 4 led by Felix (3/6 total)
- ’09: 2 of top 3 (3/11 total)

Only the ’05 and ’09 drafts would be considered negligent on the offensive side of the ball, and yet we still got Barber in ’05 and ’09 spent the “premium” picks and got Phillips and Buehler…the only rookies to actually succeed.

He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. - Thomas Jefferson

by Fighter15 on Mar 17, 2010 8:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

Average drafting...hmmm

I remember a time, under Jimmy, where Dallas was regarded as one of the best, if not the best, drafting team in the NFL. The outcomes were pretty favorable, as I recall.

Now you say our bust rate is about in line with the NFL average but you subsequently predict 16-0 seasons. Ahem…hack blogging?

:-)

But then I am not surprised. I’m sure not many are. Average drafting generally leads to average play. Our post-season folly over more than a decade is directly attributable to the organizational and draft strategy tumult that has existed since Jimmy’s departure.

Maybe you’re right and the plan IS to be average.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

Having the Herschel Walker Windfall

and the only “value” chart at the time was how. Every draft where we’ve had multiple 1sts (especially when drafting high) has been great. Take ’05 for example.

Every team has about a 50% hit rate. There are no (none, nada, zip) outliers here.

As for 16-0, it’s only in years where I think we have the best team. Why not? Why predict that they will lose to an inferior team because at some point it will? What is gained by those that accidentally predicted the correct ending record?

Talent acquisition is more than the draft. Missing on the draft only hurts the pocketbook, as is evidenced by our OL. The only death nail I can see in that end is to be reckless with the cap and to trade premium draft picks.

What makes a great team has far more to do with coaching than drafting well.

He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. - Thomas Jefferson

by Fighter15 on Mar 17, 2010 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

Your last line is a money comment

But seriously, do you want me hack blogging about Wade and Jerry’s bass-ackward way of filling his coaching staffs (again)? Hehehe, I know your answer.

Back to the action…

I wholeheartedly support trading a #1 for a future #1 and loading up another 2nd or 3rd in that year, but that’s the ONLY time I have seen it pan out.

I don’t support trading down for the sake of trading down, which is what Dallas seems to do too often, apparently with Jerry thinking he is smarter than the more accomplished war room GM’s out there.

And while I agree talent acquisition is not JUST about the draft, great teams continue to use the draft as the single most important vehicle for building and maintaining a top-flight roster. In 2009, with a dearth of free agent moves, I’m sure you will agree that this point is underscored.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

Dallas doesn't trade down to just to obtain extra draft picks

They only do it when there is no value left at the spot they are picking(following their draft board), thus avoiding reaching. That’s the smart way to maximize the draft.

to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''

by APerfectStar on Mar 17, 2010 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Or maybe they just aren't good at seeing the value there

I truly believe that is the root cause of this madness.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree that the trading up idea is an idea that should be knocked around

However, if the don’t trade up, I don’t think the Cowboys should reach for a player at a position of need, but rather they should trade down and get better value. Also, if you end up with a lot of talent at one position I don’t think it’s a bad thing. You can usually turn that into something positive for the future.

Jerry always makes better decisions when he doesn’t think we are just a few players away. It’s best for us to get the 6 or so best football players we can get then reaching for guys and then heaping the responsibility of performing at a high level on them, when they are not ready or qualified.

That is why trading up is a good idea, because then we can get someone who really can do what we want rather than reaching and hoping that a guy at a position of need can come through.

The other thing we disagree on I think is that defense is more important than offense and aside from drafting an olineman in the first round, if we find one of value, our pick should be defensive, unless someone with great value has fallen, but then I think we should do what we did when Brady Quinn fell and trade down.

by The Triplets on Mar 15, 2010 8:00 PM CDT reply actions  

If you've read my posts, you know my thoughts on trading down...

It hasn’t worked for Dallas in the post-Jimmy era outside of the example you used when they acquired a future 1st rounder.

I looked at other teams who traded out of round 1 and had not found anyone who REALLY benefitted from that personnel strategy. A couple of people pointed out the Niners and Pats did that a lot on their way to dynasties and, in fact, both of those teams got LESS out of that strategy than they would have if they had held onto their original picks.

So you are right, we disagree. :-)

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 15, 2010 11:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Is this draft even deep at all at nose tackle after Cody?

That’s beside the point that the NFL is now a passing league. The Saints were as horrible at stopping the run as the Colts were at running it; yet that was the Super Bowl matchup.

Corner (or safety) depth is more important than depth at nose tackle unless you just have this really bad sinking feeling Ratliff is long overdue for a serious injury due to being an undersized nose tackle. Let’s remember that it wasn’t Adrian Peterson who gutted the Cowboys in the playoffs but rather Favre who left the secondary looking often times clueless.

And if you are going to make the argument about depth along the defensive line, why isn’t DE just as important? Aaron Smith has been just as important a player to the success of the Steelers 3-4 as Casey Hampton.

In today’s NFL, I just can’t see the argument being made for nose tackle depth being more important than secondary depth; especially when you already have an All Pro NT.

by MadMick on Mar 15, 2010 10:47 PM CDT reply actions  

Dan Williams is rated by some as the better NT

I don’t know if I agree. Cody’s strength was certainly on display at the Combine on the bench. After them, I like Torrell Troup.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 15, 2010 11:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Does WalterFootball have their facts right?

They actually have Cody’s 225 rep count at an unimpressive 22 (Williams: 27.) I’m aware of Williams but some mocks have him rated as a top 15 pick.

by MadMick on Mar 15, 2010 11:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

My mistake

I was thinking of Troup’s press.

Regardless, Cody’s ability to walk the pocket backwards is well-documented.

Williams looked nimble for a 327-pounder from what I saw.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 15, 2010 11:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Is there a CB or Safety you have an affinity for?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 15, 2010 11:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

I like the Kyle Wilson pick pick a lot if that's how things shook out.

Newman can only become more fragile as he creeps towards his mid-30’s and Scandrick regressed some last season.

As for safety, I can’t really say the same. If Earl Thomas slid there, you’d have to make the pick on value alone. I wouldn’t go anywhere near Taylor Mays though. Failing Thomas sliding, safety could wait to be addressed until the 3rd round.

by MadMick on Mar 15, 2010 11:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Would you take Nate Allen at 27?

Agree on Mays.

He’s a great workout guy with really poor football instincts.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Cody is fat sloth

There is no reason whatsoever to waste a pick on him.

to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''

by APerfectStar on Mar 16, 2010 4:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

Fat sloth anchoring the nation's #1 collegiate defense and National Champion

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Please

The guy was on the field for how much of it. There are better draft choices available and I certainly hope Dallas takes one of them and not some overweight mountain of mush who will probably struggle with weight and injury when he has NFL players going up against him.

to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''

by APerfectStar on Mar 16, 2010 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Saban said he's the guy who made McClain

I’m no Crimson tide fan, so I don’t know.

The youtube I have seen of him shows him pushing every one-on-one matchup right up into the QB’s grill.

We could use that kind of force on this defense.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

I like the position, but not the player

What if he actually had to start because Rat was injured? Is this the guy you would want to depend on? He has no stamina.

Let someone else take the risk on Cody, I’d rather see Dallas take a kid who could stay on the field if needed. Dan Williams, Jared Odrick, Cam Thomas, Torrell Troup, Arthur Jones, Mike Neal, etc.

to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''

by APerfectStar on Mar 16, 2010 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

Williams may be better than Cody

Hard to know from my vantage point. But I want a bigger dude there, not a 300-pounder, a 330-pounder at least.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Cody will start in the NFL...

but I don’t think he’s first round talent.

I watched alot of Alabama and while he was an anchor on the line, the two blocked fieldgoals against Tennessee was his claim to fame.

Late second round, sure, but I don’t see him as a Jamall Williams or Casey Hampton.

John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 16, 2010 6:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

I dunno

He’s been on the NFL’s radar for a long time…someone will take him long before the late second, if only because of Saban’s praise.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 10:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

He will be taken long before then...

but he shouldn’t be.

How many DT’s in college get drafted high that can’t get any pass rush?

John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 16, 2010 11:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's different for a 3-4 NT than a 4-3 DT

I’m not expecting pass rush from a Cody, but I expect teams to have to double him.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

I get that...

but even your big time DT’s in pro football now could provide a pass rush in college.

Hampton, Jamall Williams, Vince Wilfork, they were guys who could get penetration.

John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 17, 2010 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

None of them played in a 3-4 as the Nose

Very few college teams employ a 3-4.

Al Groh has been doing it for a while at Virginia, but not many others.

The role changes. Some skills are transferrable and some aren’t. But 350 pounds and quickness/strength always transfer well…

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

That is true.

I guess I’m just not a huge fan of him.

John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 17, 2010 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

You're not alone!

I’m swimming upstream against a tide of BTB dissent.

:-)

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Al Groh is now at Georgia Tech

and will be installing the 3-4 (much needed if you ask me). Just in case anyone cares haha.

If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.

by Cowboyfan729 on Mar 17, 2010 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yellow Jackets will miss Dwyer

Is GT considered a step up from Virginia?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well he is coming as the DC so it definitely

isn’t a step up for him, but it definitely is a step up for our defense. Before his signing, I didn’t think there was any way in the world that we could field a decent defense, but with him I am actually confident he can find a spot for some of our players who didn’t fit our old system so well.

As for Dwyer, I loved him, but I think we have some recruits and a guy named Anthony Allen who can replace him pretty well.

If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.

by Cowboyfan729 on Mar 17, 2010 6:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Part 2

I agree that DE is a big need, but I’ve been a believer that Rat can slide out to DE in obvious passing downs if they had a legitimate 330-pounder that opponents had to double as well. Maybe cody is that guy? Maybe Williams?

As for Aaron Smith, how good would he be without Hampton drawing constant doubles? I think opponents have to game plan for Hampton more than Smith. We’ll find out how this all works out this year.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 15, 2010 11:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not disagreeing with the notion that Ratliff would be more effective as a 3-4 end in certain situations.

But with this coaching staff even obvious tactics aren’t always the ones they choose to deploy. That’s why I question how important they feel the need is to draft a true NT that would allow Ratliff to slide out on obvious passing downs.

The other thing is I’m really not sold on Cody but that’s just me. For example, Hampton was an extremely active player in college leading the Aggies in tackles for two consecutive seasons and also caused nine fumbles in his collegiate career.

by MadMick on Mar 15, 2010 11:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

What evidence do you have that says the All Pro NT can be better at DE or that he should even be tried there?

Can Ratliff get Flat and turn the corner? Don’t know.

I do know he is an ALL PRO AT NT. that really has to count for something.

by alanTdot. on Mar 16, 2010 12:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

Why another NT?

How come so many people think that Dallas’ main need is NT, when Ratliff is cheap, young and is an All-Pro? I agree that Dallas needs depth, but why would Dallas really screw up Ratliff by pushing him out to DE when his play is out standing as is?

by Austin15 on Mar 16, 2010 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's a fair question

…and one I have answered before.

I think he is undersized for the position and he’s been less effective as the seasons has wonr on. His strength is his motor and his quickness. These are generally traits you look for in a 5-technique in Wade’s system.

If you look at Wade’s history, he’s had guys at that position who generated 7 and 8 sacks. In Dallas, not so much. even a slouch like Luis castillo has generated more pressure than anyone Dallas has had in the role.

Also, we’ve seen how the Ravens and Jets, in Rex Ryan’s scheme utilize a beefier body at the nose to demand double-teams and free the DE’s to go upfield and get some pocket pressure. I think the Jets were the NFL’s best defense last year because of their ability to create presssure from the NT and DE’s. remember, they don’t possess an elite pass-rushing OLB resembling anything like DeMarcus Ware.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Prove this:

I think he is undersized for the position and he’s been less effective as the seasons has wonr on. His strength is his motor and his quickness. These are generally traits you look for in a 5-technique in Wade’s system.

Prove ONE of these claims. Just one.

1. He’s the best run stuffing NT the last two seasons according to the one systems that rates NTs on one-on-one metrics and yet “he’s undersized for his position.” Yeah, and Charles Barkley sucked at PF cause he was really 6’5"

2. He wears down late in the season? Again, where’s the proof here?

3. His game is speed and quickness, which is ideal for a 5 technique.

So he gets 8 sacks at NT, and you move him to DE and MAYBE get gets 8 sacks and this is an improvement how?

by Rafael Vela on Mar 16, 2010 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

I will respond, but your request for proof is an interesting one...

I’m not sure anyone, including you, has ever PROVEN anything on this blog, so maybe your choice of words was poor.

First, answer this: Is there an NT smaller than Rat starting in the NFL today? the point about his size revolved around how he gives up major poundage to the Jamaal Jacksons of the world. If you want to shorten his career by having him play under those circumstances, fine. But it’s a major risk and one I wouldn’t take with an elite talent.

Second, if you look at the games we’ve played over the last couple of seasons against power running teams, you may see some trends. In 2009, the last two games we played against power run-first teams (the Giants and Raiders), Dallas gave up over 100 yards on the ground…although you could say Minnesota was a run first team (I probably wouldn’t) too. Against the Ravens in 2008, they gave up 265 on the ground and I think he was getting pushed around in the Steeler game two weeks prior.

On your third point, I’m not sure I understand your contention. Are you saying those aren’t his strengths or that those strengths aren’t what you look for in a 3-4 DE?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ratliff is still a 300-pounder.

As for Ratliff wearing down late in the season, that didn’t stop the Cowboys from having arguably their four best defensive efforts of the season before no-showing in the MetroDump.

I’m just not buying that he’s due for this major injury. He’s not the defensive equivalent to Marion Barber, who has in fact worn down because of his style of play.

Dallas’s run defense is fine; especially in today’s NFL. A game 15 months ago against the Ravens where 160 of those yards came on two late fluke long runs is meaningless. The Saints absolutely sucked at stopping the run and it didn’t prevent them from winning the whole deal. As for that 2nd Giants game, Eli’s 241 yards on only 11 completions seems far more problematic.

by MadMick on Mar 16, 2010 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh I am not saying we could not overcome a weakness just like NO did...

I was just pointing out that a way to take the defense up a notch would be to upgrade the DE position and put a bigger body in the middle to clog up running plays. Maybe Rat moves to NT on obvious passing downs? I dunno.

Regardless, I’m all for finding a bigger body to share some of the pounding that this position takes on inside runs, especially if it helps upgrade the 1st down pass rush. After all, what better way to make suspect safeties look like Ed Reed?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Back at 'ya

Is there a smaller NT in the game than Ratliff?

Don’t know. But most of the best NTs to play the game have been “undersized.” Bob Baumhower, Rubin Carter, Tim Krumrie, all these guys were power, technique guys. None of them were big clods who gummed up the middle. Yeah, it’s nice to get a Curley Culp, or Michael Carter type who’s thick and quick, in the Jamaal Williams mode, but there’s plenty of history to show that guys like Rat have long, career.

I’m not opposed to finding another NT. I think it would be great to get another guy to take the pounding. I used to play NT, back when chop blocks were legal. You don’t have to sell me on the pounding they take. But Rat is a NT. A damn good one. I see no compelling reason to get another one.

by Rafael Vela on Mar 16, 2010 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Truly, those were greats in their time...

I was a big Tim Krumrie fan. I met him in Cincy once and he was a really pleasant guy. He talked football with my uncle for 2 hours.

But…I think the game has changed. Otto Graham may have been the best QB to play the game, but I’m not sure how he would fare in the modern day NFL. The reads are so much more complex and the progressions much faster. Maybe he’d be a bum today.

The point being that in THIS NFL, the dominant NT’s and, I can extend the observation to all interior D-linemen, are those that combine uncommon mass with either uncommon strength or uncommon athleticism. The one common thread being mass. Rat is the lone exception to the rule. But the fact that he excels in his current role lends even more credibility to the idea that he could be successful at DE.

I think Rat is a great player. Why not move him around a bit (a la Ware) and see what happens?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why are you so intent on moving Rat?

He doesn’t want it, the coaches don’t want it…only you.

History (especially in Wade’s defenses) have great quick & smallish NTs. All Tampa-2 D’s have a Warren Sapp type. And even BP had Jason Ferguson (nearly identical to Rat’s dimensions).

He’s the best NT in the league. Leave it alone.

He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. - Thomas Jefferson

by Fighter15 on Mar 17, 2010 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ware is one of the best pass rushers in the league...

Why drop him into coverage?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

Because you want him one on one with TEs and RBs one on one a few times?

If he’s only rushing, he becomes a limited player and he’ll always be asigned to Tackles and probably double teams…

You just have to look at his highlights to see the amount of times in which he beats a TE or RB on his way to the QB… He’s just too quick for a Tackle to recover and join in.

Viva México! Go Cowboys!

by Chandus on Mar 17, 2010 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

Amen brother!!!

And so goes the argument for Ratliff. Why not put him on the outside shoulder of the guard and see if you can get a mismatch with a guy like Dan Williams or Cody occupying two blockers?

You are the man!

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ummm

Centers and Guards are easier matchups than Guards and Tackles…

I want him exploiting the easier matchups, just like I want Ware and Spencer facing easier matchups…

I guess that you don’t want that, huh?

Viva México! Go Cowboys!

by Chandus on Mar 17, 2010 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

SOMEBODY is going to get doubled

I’d rather it was a 350-pound tree stump in the middle than Rat.

Capisce?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

Just because a player weighs 350...

Isn’t an indication that he’s going to get doubled, you just have to ask Gabe Watson, who weighs 330 and several Cowboys fans wanted the Cowboys to Draft… He just can’t manage to start in place of an old, average and smallish player in what’s mostly a 3-4 (Bryan Robinson, 304 and 35 years).

It’s just that you have this idea that the Cowboys will somehow manage to Draft someone like a young Jamal Williams… When no 3-4 team has managed to find someone like him…

Viva México! Go Cowboys!

by Chandus on Mar 17, 2010 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well I don't think you can ever perfectly tell

how a guy is going to develop, but I certainly think there are always prospects with that potential.

If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.

by Cowboyfan729 on Mar 17, 2010 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why assume draft failure at that position and not others?

Besides, when has Dallas actually attempted to find one in the draft?

And don’t give me this Montavious Stanley crap either.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Perhaps it's because they REALLY like...

The NTs in Ratliff’s mold?

They had many chance to land the huge guys that you like, but they didn’t.

To me that speaks volumes, to you, too, but the difference is our point of view, you think that they suck for not taking them, I don’t.

Viva México! Go Cowboys!

by Chandus on Mar 17, 2010 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

How many WR's did they take that you liked?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, as far as I know, if they would have been able...

… They would have liked to select the likes of Meachem, Bowe, Steve Smith and Maclin, the Cowboys rated them as 1st Rounders or 2nd Rounders and really wanted them.

They’re all pretty good players, so I kind of see that they can distinguish talent.

Viva México! Go Cowboys!

by Chandus on Mar 18, 2010 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

So...

that’s zero?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 19, 2010 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yup

And the Cowboys have suffered mightily from lack of production in the passing game…

Oh, wait…

Viva México! Go Cowboys!

by Chandus on Mar 20, 2010 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Again...

That’s ZERO, right?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 20, 2010 8:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yup

And your point is? Zero?

Zero WRs taken in the Draft, Zero effect on the Cowboys passing game?

Nice effort, though.

Viva México! Go Cowboys!

by Chandus on Mar 21, 2010 1:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

As usual...

The point is right in front of you. You’re just too pigheaded to admit you are wrong.

Read the entire thread 5 or 6 times, I think it might help. The lightbulb might just come on for you.

Then again…

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 21, 2010 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah

Your point is that TEs are no part of the passing game, or so you’re making it seem.

Read the entire thread 5 or 6 times, I think it might help. The lightbulb might just come on for you.

Then again…

Viva México! Go Cowboys!

by Chandus on Mar 21, 2010 5:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

If we had a good NT that also required double teams

and Ratliff at DE with our OLBs, I don’t think Ratliff would get too many double teams. He would be allowed to isolate (most of the time) on a guard or a tackle (a battle I would like for him the majority of the time).

If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.

by Cowboyfan729 on Mar 17, 2010 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

There you go again...

Stealing my lines.

Keep it up and I’ll get snarky.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well if Dallas were to get a very good run-stuffing NT, which is really what this whole move would hinge on, then you have improved the DE position by replacing Spears with Ratliff and you continue to have a NT position that requires double teams.

If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.

by Cowboyfan729 on Mar 16, 2010 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

The very mention of Spears makes me think of the word, "bust"

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nice idea but it won't work this year

There are two LTs IMO who could step in and play well immediately, Okung and Bulaga. They’ll both be gone by pick 10.

This team isn’t moving up 18 spots on the backs of Bennett and Choice.

by Rafael Vela on Mar 15, 2010 11:50 PM CDT reply actions  

I have resigned myself to the same opinion since I don't

think any rookie tackle that would go near us could beat out Free. That is why I have become a big advocate of looking for interior lineman early in the draft since I think our backups are most in need of depth there.

If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.

by Cowboyfan729 on Mar 16, 2010 12:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

They said Oher wouldn't start early on. They said that about Loadholt too.

I think they may be able to land one of the top 5 guys by moving up only 5-8 slots. One of them is bound to slip, as is the case most years.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Neither do I

I like Ducasse.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe in the mid-second.

I am not a fan of his in the first round. I would much rather take an elite interior player than reach like that.

If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.

by Cowboyfan729 on Mar 16, 2010 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

I thought Iupati would be there at # 27

…but it seems the Ben Grubbs’ and Arron Sears’ of the world have made that less likely.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Dallas won't have to move up in the 1st for Ducasse

In fact they could trade down a bit from #27 and still get him.

to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''

by APerfectStar on Mar 16, 2010 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

But I think they might find Trent Williams falling to #18 or so...

and if not Williams, maybe Davis?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Davis might be worth it if he fell that far

Williams I don’t think so. But I agree with Raf, I think the top 5 guys are going quick, then Dallas would have to choose from the next tier.

I like Pouncey’s value if he makes it to #27, and I actually like Ducasse also, but it seems like a reach in the 1st, as he’ll have to play G for at least a while.

Have you watched Veldheer? It’s probably hard to find clips of him, but I think he’d be a good pick in the 2nd to 3rd.

to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''

by APerfectStar on Mar 16, 2010 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Pouncey played in a funky system

About your guy Veldheer, he’s certainly strong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZUoHh8gupE

Unfortunately, tiny Hillsdale college wasn’t big on videotaping. Man, not even a handheld Sony! Ugh…

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I've seen that

Gave me a double hernia just watching it.

to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''

by APerfectStar on Mar 16, 2010 6:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not all weight room strength translates

…to the field like Larry Allen. But who knows?

Is he another Michael Roos?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 10:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

oh snap!

that is strength that I have only seen from Sloth in the movie “Goonies”.

Ich bin ein Berliner--JFK

by HudBaby on Mar 16, 2010 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

The best plan every year is to pick the best player available on your board

unless you’re so stacked at a certain position that the draftee would have no chance to make the team. Otherwise you simply pick the highest graded player on your board.

If another team calls and offers you a deal too good to pass up, then trade down, otherwise follow your board, it’s that simple.

Drafting for need is a recipe for disaster.

In Romo we Trust

by Terry on Mar 16, 2010 1:51 PM CDT reply actions  

You lauded the Cowboys' draft last year which you said was about the NEED to cleanse the bottom of the roster

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

I never said that

The Cowboys still took the best player on their board regardless of position. My position last year which you misinterpreted was that there is nothing wrong with drafting players in the mid rounds who will be quality backups, not every player drafted can realistically start.

In Romo we Trust

by Terry on Mar 17, 2010 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

We've been down this road before

…and this post is not about last year’s draft (I said I would leave it alone for another season before I came back and said I told you so). The clock is ticking.

But in the same way you erronelously stated on a prior post that the strategy of trading down was used well by the 49ers to propel their dynasty forward, the facts here too undermine your position.

Andy Levitre was taken at #51 and he compares nicely with Pouncey and others people have been contemplating on here at #27. Maybe more important, Loadholt was taken at #54. Will Beatty, a guy you called “soft” goes to the Giants, who are known for their drafting prowess under Reese and are not known for having soft O-linemen. And all of this happens while we were busy seeing if we could stet the record for most players taken in a single draft who have no discernible role on the starting offense or defense and with no intention of having them play meaningful roles in their rookie seasons.

I didn’t misinterpret, I just said you were mistaken.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think your premise of Dallas not having a plan is off the mark...

Just because you don’t know (neither do I) the exact plan, doesn’t mean there isn’t one. In fact, I would submit that the Cowboys have applied the value approach to drafting and free agency. They’ve done a pretty good job with their homework these past few years and have targeted productive players while not breaking the bank. You seem to suggest a “static” approach to player acquisition , while they approach things more fluidly…taking advantage of opportunities as they become available. A great example is our acquisition of Spencer and Felix Jones.

Citing the Saints as a team that needs few improvements makes little sense, when it is obvious they need help defending the run. I will give the Saints their just due for winning the Championship, but that had as much to do with favorable match ups and fortunate bounces. It took many mistakes by the Vikings for them to advance to the Superbowl.

I think the Cowboy’s player acquisition prowess is in plain sight…they have one of the most complete, if not best lineups in all of football. Is it perfect? No…there is no such thing in today’s NFL, but they have built a contender, the team is relatively young, there is still plenty of upside, and they are good on all 3 sides of the ball.

by CaliFanInTx on Mar 16, 2010 3:27 PM CDT reply actions  

No, no and no...

If by fluidly, you mean with absolutely no sense of what their team is in need of (O-line depth, young playmaking safety, etc.), then you were right about that. But…I’m guessing you were being more rosy about your outlook on their drafting than me. :-)

On the Saints, you need to back up the truck a bit. The point was that the team was obviously able to overcome whatever shortcomings they had to the tune of a BLING (shameless plug). Defending the run may have been their biggest issue, but it wasn’t so big as to derail them. Thus, the needs of the Saints cannot be equated with a team not sitting at the top or one suffering through tough times. Sorry if I said it poorly the first time.

On your last paragraph, I wrinkled my nose. This is a team that can’t seem to draft an OT to save it’s life. It’s a team that refuses to find WR talent in the draft while the Eagles and Giants are building a superior corps of wideouts. The team is not young on the O-line, hence my position on potentially trading up for a falling OT, and regardless of youth, not all that good at safety. In terms of other rister building, have they spent big bucks? Yes. On the right players? Bigg, Hamlin, Roy Willy…you could say it was the Good, the Bad and the Ugly.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, there is the very real phenomenon of "Super Bowl hangover."

And if any team should be weary of such a thing, it should be the Saints. They may not cause the truckload of turnovers they did last season and if that happens, they’ll be prone to losing a couple of shootouts they eeked out this past season.

by MadMick on Mar 16, 2010 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's hard to repeat, no doubt

In fact, they would not be my odds-on favorite to win the Super Bowl.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

You want to compare the unaddressed areas of the team
It’s a team that refuses to find WR talent in the draft while the Eagles and Giants are building a superior corps of wideouts.

But why don’t you compare where they have focused on building through the draft, on defense. The Cowboys have the best core of players on defense of any NFC East team. Ware, Spencer, Ratliff, Spears, T-New, Jenkins are all 1st rd picks.

to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''

by APerfectStar on Mar 16, 2010 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

I made that point last year

Dallas had more #1’s on its defense than any other team and had not played like a defense loaded with elite talent.

Maybe Dallas should spend more time scouting offensive players?

In 2007, they took Marten, Stanbust, Free and Cricket.

In 2008, they took Felix, Telly B and Choice.

In 2009, maybe we should just leave that one alone. I could get into trouble.

The point: aside from Choice (and maybe Free), Dallas has gotten less value from those picks than they should have. I miss drafting the Michael Irivins and Erik Williams’!!!

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

Felix is great

Marten was a bust, and Stanback was a risky developmental pick that didn’t pan out, but the other have stuck. (Jury is still out on Marty B’s value)
Generally, Dallas has been successful in finding quality starters on offense by drafting later, or not at all (with the exception of OL).

to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''

by APerfectStar on Mar 16, 2010 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

I like Felix. He's pure electricity.

But Chris Johnson is better and we’ll know more about the comparison to Mendenhall after this year.

OL, WR and QB have all been soft spots for Dallas in the draft…

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 5:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think this team knows what they want, but is cognizant of the fact that they cannot "cherry pick" the draft.

I have no qualms in selecting an OT with our 1st and 2nd pick like you suggested, if a great candidate is available when we pick. I just open myself up to the fact that very rarely does need meet availability when it pertains to the NFL draft. I just don’t want to go back to the days when we “reached” for players because of need. I just want to continue “maximizing” the value of our picks as we have been doing these past few years. If that means trading down or trading up, I’m ok with it as long as the price is “fair”.

Again, I give the Saints all the credit their due…and they are DUE. I just take a step back, and see the Saints have more glaring needs that we do…I’m not so sure the Saints win the Superbowl if they faced us in the Division round instead of the Cardinals…if that happened, the Vikings are the champs.

I agree with the “Good, the Bad and the Ugly”…but the Good far exceeds Bad and Ugly. As a whole we are in very good shape. I will challenge your premise that the Eagles and Giants have a superior corps of wideouts, But even if you are correct, what is the cost of their spending draft picks at WR as opposed to other positions of need? The goal is to attain a “balance” and the Cowboys are more well rounded than those teams right now.

by CaliFanInTx on Mar 16, 2010 4:32 PM CDT reply actions  

Would you take Jackson and Maclin over Austin and Roy Willy?

Most would…okay maybe not on THIS site, but you get my drift. :-)

Hakeem Nicks and Steve Smith over Miles and Roy? Yup.

You raise a good point about balance, but if you look at NY’s drafting, most would consider them one of the better drafting teams with Reese running the show.

Say what you will about the Eagles, but Bunkley and Patterson turned out okay on defense, and Jackson, McCoy and Celek were huge for them on offense. They were destroyed by injury last year on defense.

Dallas was one of, if not THE healthiest team in football last season (did they have a season-ending injury?) and that doesn’t happen every year. Depth at key spots could be tested this year and if they don’t display an awareness of that in the draft, it could be rough for a team that most expect to take another step forward.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

A WR core is not 2 players...let's try this...

Cowboys “Core”…Austin, RW, Crayton, Hurd, Ogletree and Witten over Eagles/Giants core…it’s not even close. You can shut down 2 guys, it’s harder to shut down 3 or more…

Furthermore…Maclin and Nicks haven’t exactly lit things up to be considered “exceptional”…but even if you rank them better than the Boys, they wouldn’t be substantially better, and we still have less holes on our team, which was the origianl discussion point.

by CaliFanInTx on Mar 16, 2010 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

TE's are not part of the WR corps in my book

…and be fair to the other teams. Those guys are rookies and second year players!!!

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd take Miles and Roy

over Nicks and Smith

Any day of the week.

Ich bin ein Berliner--JFK

by HudBaby on Mar 16, 2010 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why?

I mean, other than being a fan.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 10:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

because they're better

Austin > Smith
RW > Nicks

In Romo we Trust

by Terry on Mar 17, 2010 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

Austin is clearly the best receiver on that list

but I am not sure RW is better than Nicks.

If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.

by Cowboyfan729 on Mar 17, 2010 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

You are a wise one, C729

but stop stealing my rebuttals!!

Austin caught 81 for 1320 while Steve Smith caught 107 for 1220.

Most would agree that Austin is more explosive, but Smith also had a breakout year. Apparently, the distance between them is not as great as some might think in terms of production.

After that, Terry’s statement gets mushy.

RW caught 38 balls for 596 yards and his partner in crime, Patrick Crayton caught 37 balls for 622.

RW’s rookie counterpart, Hakeem Nicks, caught 47 balls for 790 yards in limited action as he slowly overtook Manningham late in the year as the #2. Speaking of Manningham, another 2nd year player (remember, my point was that other team(s) are building a receiving battery of a higher caliber than ours), he caught 57 balls for 822 yards.

So, while the #1 WR’s are close in terms of production with a slight nod going to Miles, it doesn’t matter what combination of 2’s and 3’s you use, the G-men got significantly more production from theirs. And they are a run-first team!

I welcome counterpoints here.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

What do you want to see?

Romo throwing the ball for 5500 yards and for something like 60 sacks?

Romo’s top 2 targets came down with 175 catches, 2350 yards 13 TDs… Eli? His top 2 pass catchers came down with lesser numbers…

Do you want Romo throwing the ball more? Because as far as I saw, he did a pretty good job with what he had and I’m not asking for him to do much more… So, there’s only a limited number of balls to be spread around.

Viva México! Go Cowboys!

by Chandus on Mar 17, 2010 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

You need to scroll up...and breathe

The point was about the WR corps that Philly and the NYG were building through the draft and who we weren’t investing in that position in the draft (unless you count Stanbust as an investment).

Sometimes Chandus, you argue in favor oft things that are completely outside the context of the thread. As a result, I have no idea how to bridge to your question, so please don’t take it personally.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

How can the number 2 and number 3 receivers manage better numbers...

…When the top 2 pass catching targets in the Cowboys catch as many balls and for as many yards?

Sometimes Blings, you argue against things without reading the point of the comments. As a result, it’s though arguing with you because apparently you can’t take your head out of somewhere dark…

So please don’t take it personally.

Viva México! Go Cowboys!

by Chandus on Mar 17, 2010 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh Snap!

Amen brother, preach on.

He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. - Thomas Jefferson

by Fighter15 on Mar 17, 2010 8:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

If the WR's were Nicks and Manningham, they might be open and get more balls thrown their way

And…you seem to have taken it personally.

It was not my intent, and I’m sorry you couldn’t avoid sinking to that level.

How’s the Mexican team looking for the World Cup?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 10:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sorry for that previous answer...

Got my head all hot…

After a couple of seconds I found that such an answer was a mistake… But I had already hit enter…

I’ll give you an example of my way of thinking:

Before the 2007 I had a long arguement with Redskins fans in the KFFL Forum about Witten being a better TE than Cooley, they would just tell me: “Their numbers are comparable, but Cooley had 6 more TDs. Ergo, Cooley is better”.

To that, my answer was: “In a year in which Owens and Barber scored 29 TDs combined, how much TDs would they have needed for Witten to score more TDs?”

That’s the funny thing of production in the NFL, it can come from many players or few, the important part is producing as a whole.

It’s just too hard to compare different players in such differente circumstances… As far as we know, Manningham or Nicks could be playing with the Cowboys and end up having Crayton kind of numbers, because the top 2 targets will continue to be Austin and Witten.

Viva México! Go Cowboys!

by Chandus on Mar 17, 2010 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

I suppose I agree at some points

but I certainly would say that individually, I like Nicks and Manningham’s potential (I still have a place in my heart for U of M) more than RW and Crayton’s.

If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.

by Cowboyfan729 on Mar 17, 2010 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Manningham's senior season was a bust, but he looks good

Nicks is just a beast in the making. Him strong like bull.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Manningham left after his junior year

but I will concede that his last year could have been a lot better (had Henne been healthy).

If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.

by Cowboyfan729 on Mar 17, 2010 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

And I think he ran a slow 40 at the Combine, right?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

I believe so...

I think he ran like a high 4.5 or around a 4.6. He was always more quick than fast if you know what I mean. He can run a slant route with the best of them (ask Malcolm Jenkins or Penn State).

If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.

by Cowboyfan729 on Mar 18, 2010 1:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

Looked it up

He ran a 4.6 and a horrible 7.34 in the cone (worst among WR’s).

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

His stock fell for alot of reasons...

slow times and also he reportedly had some drug issues.

John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 18, 2010 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Admittedly, I wasn't a fan either

…and if he becomes a star in New York, my bad.

But, I was a fan of Mike Wallace.

And, this year as if to give people a peek at the answer, I like Emmanuel Sanders.

I like his spped, his hands, and his ability to run after the catch.

What I REALLY like about him, and this is what I look for in all WR’s, is his ability to cut at full speed without false steps. This, more than any other ability, is what allows WR’s to create separation. While some players can develop great hip and shoulder fakes over time, nothing is more important than this characteristic.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

WR’s are so hard to predict though.

I like Benn alot as far as 1-2 WR’s.

John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 18, 2010 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

I SERIOUSLY LIKE BENN

I think Juice Williams sucks and this guy is going to make some team very happy…

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 10:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Check out Kyle Williams from ASU.

I like E. Sanders as well, but Kyle Williams reminds me a lot of Desean Jackson in watching his speed and quickness.

If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.

by Cowboyfan729 on Mar 18, 2010 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Being a Pac 10 Alum, I saw Williams a few times

He’s just okay in my book. I think he’s a better PR than a WR.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 11:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Perhaps...

I still think he would be a good guy to look for in the late rounds as a guy that come in and actually make some plays.

If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.

by Cowboyfan729 on Mar 18, 2010 11:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sanders is ok

I like Andre Roberts and Blair White.

to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''

by APerfectStar on Mar 18, 2010 8:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Roberts didn't look that good in the gauntlet as I recall

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 10:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

And Blair White is like the MSU WR that Washington drafted

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 11:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah

I am not a big Blair White fan.

If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.

by Cowboyfan729 on Mar 18, 2010 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not from the scouting reports I've read
Solid and smart route runner who can find openings in the defense to exploit. Not elite in his quickness or suddenness, but can still shake a defender in the open with space or press a corner and plant quickly on his out, slant and comeback routes. Hesitation move after the snap lulls defenders to sleep. Gets his head around quickly to find the ball after he makes a cut.

NFLDraftScout profile

Devin Thomas was a 1 year wonder, still very raw. This kid is smart and polished. They are very different players

to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''

by APerfectStar on Mar 19, 2010 12:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

Best reel of him I found

…but nothing was all that special about the walk-on. I think he’s just a “guy”.

http://www.spartantailgate.com/forums/msu-red-cedar-message-board/432548-excellent-blair-white-highlight-video.html

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 19, 2010 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Now compare White to THIS!

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 19, 2010 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oops

http://ballhype.com/video/arrelious-benn-highlights/

Look at the balance, the strength, the explosiveness. This guy is going to be something.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 19, 2010 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well Benn's a 1st or high 2nd

Kind of like comparing Sanders to Bryant, of course Bryant and Benn are the best WR prospects IMO.

to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''

by APerfectStar on Mar 19, 2010 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the link

Yeah, he reminds me of Ed McCafferty. I’m not saying he’s all world, but for a 5th or 6th rd pick he looks like he could compete for a spot.

to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''

by APerfectStar on Mar 19, 2010 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Undoubtedly

After all, this post is about having a draft plan, and my contention that dallas hasn’t invested enough in drafting and developing young WR talent is underscored.

Would you take Benn at #27 if the big 5 OT’s were all gone?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 19, 2010 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think to eliminate Witten

from the conversation as respects WRs vs the Giants and Eagles is a little silly. In my book whoeveer has the most balls TARGETED to him is the number one receiver. Witten was targeted 142 times which was the same number of targets as Miles Austin. Jackson was targeted 125 times and Macklin 102 times yet Witten should be eliminated from the discussion because 5Blings says so? Hmm….

How about we do a little more fair comparison and use two teams that also have HOF TEs like the Chargers and the Falcons and have a little bit more objectivity in the debate.

by jevans1729 on Mar 17, 2010 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

It wasn't a snub to Witten

It was a discussion about how the giants and Eagles have INVESTED high draft picks in the WR position and how that has helped them build a core of young, talented WR’s.

Here is the comment that started the discussion about them…

It’s a team that refuses to find WR talent in the draft while the Eagles and Giants are building a superior corps of wideouts.

Let’s not turn this into a “the Cowboys are better than ____ because” conversation because it’s vapid and unspecific.

Let’s reign this back in with some questions;

Is there any other team in the league without a drafted WR on it’s roster?

Why have we forsaken this position in the draft when every year, guys like Eddie Royal, Mike Wallace, etc. come out and make big impacts on other teams?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Talking about vapid and unspecific

Who gives a rat’s behind whether Philly has spent the last decade trying to get WRs and lo and behold they finally did?

Who cares about comparing team’s WRs.

It’s freakin’ inane.

Talk about production. Whoops, doesn’t match your argument. The fact that the ’Boys had the 2nd best Offense is irrelevant, huh?

I guess the ’90s guys were despicable ’cause they were usually 5th overall and barely top 10 in passing. Yeah, they sucked, too.

Quit skewing arguments for justification for your WR love. I’m too busy on my 5-year OL rant to pay any more attention to a moot point.

He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. - Thomas Jefferson

by Fighter15 on Mar 17, 2010 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Are you saying my WR rant doesn't trump your OL rant?

…because I think it does.

And you went to a weird place…

If you didn’t give a “rat” then you wouldn’t have replied. But you did. Because you do. You’re just too egocentric to admit it. It’s fine, man. We’ve covered this ground already. I won’t continue to push your buttons.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

BTW

I liked this part:

Witten should be eliminated from the discussion because 5Blings says so

If only more people thought like that…

:-)

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wuss!

He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. - Thomas Jefferson

by Fighter15 on Mar 17, 2010 8:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

y!

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't know

about anyone else but I was responding to your specific statement that “TEs are not part of the WR corps in my book……” In an effort not to be “vapid and unspecific” I did not say anyone was better than anyone else. What I said was that the comparisons you were making with drafted WRs was not valid because Witten is targeted with passes on our team like #1 WRs on other teams.

For example, as I said previously Witten was targeted 142 times in 2009. That comapres to 116 targets for V. Jackson of SD, 131 for G. Jennings of GB, 129 for M. Colston of NO, 136 for C.Johnson of Detroit, 128 for S. Smith of CAR, and three less than R.Moss’ 145 of NE.

I believe you also said that “If the WRs were Nicks and Manningham, they might be open and get more balls thrown their way….” Now I’m going to go out a limb here and say that Manningham and Nicks are not better than any of the WRs listed above.

Therefore, Cowboy WR numbers will always be comparitively less than other teams WRs because Witten is targeted like a No.1. Also, judging from these target numbers, it doesn’t matter who the WRs are they will get fewer balls thrown to them if they play with Witten. Hopefully my explanation was not vapid and unspecific.

by jevans1729 on Mar 18, 2010 12:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks for clarifying

I always questioned this notion of “targeting”.

Nobody but Redball and the players know how those progressions were supposed to work, but in the end, all you can really say about the whole targeting thing is that Romo threw the ball toward this guy or that guy.

Now, I want to believe (call me crazy) that the Dallas offensive philosophy is that you throw to whoever is open, in the order of progressions that the play is designed for.

If that is true, it’s not fair to say that Witten is treated like a #1 just because he got more balls thrown at him because you don’t know if he was the primary, secondary, tertiary (what comes after tertiary?), etc. receiver in the progression.

My contention is that our WR’s, particularly our #2 and #3, struggled (and continue to struggle) to get open and, as a direct result, didn’t get the ball thrown their way as much. Theoretically, WR’s tend to run deeper patterns than the TE’s drags, in’s and out’s. If a guy 15 yards down the field is open, you’d throw him the ball before the guy who is 5 yards downfield and open, right? And that is generally how progressions work on offense witht the QB’s eyes going furthest downfield and working backward toward the outlets (unless you’re throwing a designed screen, pass to the flat, whatever).

In fact, I remember a post, possibly from OCC, about how Romo was faced with more 3rd and long (or very long) situations and that would suggest that it probably supports the notion that too many balls never made it to players who were running medium and longer range routes. It wasn’t Romo’s fault they weren’t open.

So, looking at your final paragraph, I think that is the crux of our friendly disagreement. I believe that you started out with a flawed assumption of what “targeting” means.

My position is that if Dallas had WR’s who could separate like others I have mentioned (and again, the reason is clearly that we haven’t invested in that position in the draft…at least that’s how I see it)), we’d throw the ball downfield more to them and their numbers would be more in line with their counterparts.

And no, you weren’t vapid and unspecific. Quite enthralling, actually.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

True, that's were we differ
My position is that if Dallas had WR’s who could separate like others I have mentioned (and again, the reason is clearly that we haven’t invested in that position in the draft…at least that’s how I see it)), we’d throw the ball downfield more to them and their numbers would be more in line with their counterparts.

- Romo attempted 550 throws.

- Completed 63.1% of them.

- He has a quick release, which means that he’s often throwing to his first or second option, in part due to design (I guess that the team knew that there would be more sacks than in previous years).

- Witten is an All-Pro, very much like Gonzalez, and that means that he’s going to get himself open in single and double coverage and Romo trusts him.

- The Cowboys, due to scheme, decided to spread the ball around, Garrett talked about this in Training Camp, you probably can’t remember… Or you just don’t want to.

- The other receivers, other than Austin and Witten, can’t get open? I can’t see how that affected the team passing stats… But that’s just me….

- Few deep shots? Hahahahaha, you know that Romo was sacked for a career high, right? With a quick release, BTW. I guess that’s part of all the talk about being Romo friendly… Not asking him to throw deep as much…

Viva México! Go Cowboys!

by Chandus on Mar 18, 2010 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Read this again
- He has a quick release, which means that he’s often throwing to his first or second option, in part due to design (I guess that the team knew that there would be more sacks than in previous years).

Does that make any sense to you at all? It doesn’t to me.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

OK

As far as I know, when we talk about quick release with QBs, it’s the amount of time that it takes for the QB to throw the ball from the moment in which he receives the snap. Which means that most of Romo’s throws were 3 or 4 Mississippies.

Was that due to design? Based on the numbers and the amount of sacks that came from such short times, I have to believe that yes, Romo was asked to take very little time in the pocket.

Viva México! Go Cowboys!

by Chandus on Mar 18, 2010 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nope

Quick Release refers to the time it takes to get the ball out of the QBs hands once he’s begun the throwing motion.

He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. - Thomas Jefferson

by Fighter15 on Mar 18, 2010 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

OK

How do you call a QB that takes a short time to throw?

That’s Romo, too.

Viva México! Go Cowboys!

by Chandus on Mar 18, 2010 6:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, your notions are somewhat contradictory

Anyone who gets rid of the ball quickly shouldn’t get sacked a lot. I’ll submit Peyton Manning as a modern example but Dan Marino (watch the lone loss handed to the ’85 Bears) as an even better one.

Remember, we’re discussing WR talent here, so let’s stay on point – I still theorize that Witten would get fewer balls if we had two WR’s who could uncover downfield more quickly than RW and Crayton.

Witten is a fantastic player (my favorite of this iteration of Cowboys) because he is the most COMPLETE player, but he’s not able to get deep down the seam like some others in the NFL. Dallas was less explosive than in prior years because Romo could not throw the ball deep downfield as he did in 2007 to T.O.

We saw what the big play meant to this team when they played New Orleans. Otherwise, they were relegated to shorter routes because our #2 and #3 weren’t uncovering downfield quickly enough and Romo was dumping the ball to his tertiary or quatenary (props to APerfectStar) options. Kudos to Romo for evolving as a QB that could do that, too!

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

because you don’t know if he was the primary, secondary, tertiary (what comes after tertiary?)

Quaternary

to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''

by APerfectStar on Mar 18, 2010 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nice

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

5Blings,

now you are just being obtuse. :) Targeting has absolutely nothing to do with progressions. Targeting is part of the statistic used to determine the percentage of how many balls a receiver caught vs.how many were thrown to him. Progressions in that analysis are irrelevant. BTW, my definition of a target is exactly the same as Webster’s Unabridged “anything to be struck with missles.” Therefore, I believe you are the one with the flawed definition of “targeting.” It’s just not that deep.

Furthermore, if Chandus’ number of 550 throws for Romo this season is accurate, that means that Austin and Witten were targeted with 52% of the total passes thrown by Romo. I maintain that ratio is disprportionate to any WR TE combination in the NFL with the possible exception of Jackson and Gates in SD and White and Gonzalez in Atlanta. There is only one ball and only one person can catch it at a time. You can’t blame the other receivers if Romo (and it is his choice alone) throws it more than half the time to two guys. You have no basis in fact to say that other receivers are not open when balls are thrown to Austin and Witten. It is possible that other receivers are open and these are simply Romo’s choices for whatever reason. Do you really think that Witten would get less balls thrown to him if the Cowboys got Golden Tate? Seriously? A’int gonna happen.

by jevans1729 on Mar 18, 2010 9:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Let the record state

Blings believes (a third person ode to MontecitoTex) that if Dallas had higher quality #2 and #3 WR’s that could uncover downfield more quickly, that Witten would get fewer passes thrown to him. Dallas’ problem here is that it’s most RELIABLE receiver is it’s TE.

Let it also state that he believes ANY team that has a reasonably logical offensive game plan looks for open receivers farthest downfield first and closer to the line of scrimmage last, unless the play is designed to throw a short route.

BTW, do you consider anyone who has a conflicting opinion obtuse or is that a special distinction that I should be proud of?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

"If Dallas had higher quality #2 and #3

WRs who could uncover……etc." So if the Cowboys had Randy Moss and Larry Fitzgerald Witten, would get fewer passes. Ok, I’ll go along with that. Now you tell me how you are going to pay them?

Or, we could forfeit our entire 2010 draft, trade up and get Dez Bryant, and HOPE that the rookie plays like a seasoned veteran. People keep talking about Macklin and Jackson from Philly but how did that work out for them in the playoffs?

As for the obtuse statement, it was stated in jest but it would be nice if you would support your opinions with some facts to base your speculations on.

by jevans1729 on Mar 19, 2010 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

You went to a completely outlandish place

and opted to dismiss the original premise which was…

drumroll please…

that other teams were DRAFTING WR’s and we aren’t.

And guess what? when you draft them, you don’t have to pay them huge miney until their second contract.

THAT’S why the G-Men and Eagles are building a stronger corps of WR’s than Dallas. Because they are trying to do it through the draft.

It’s the 4th time I’ve repeated myself and the facts are plainly evident in the earlier numbers I listed. You just choose not to glean the same things I did from them.

And lastly, why can’t a person just have an opinion?

Columbus’ opinion couldn’t be supported by facts, but did that make the fools who criticized him (think of me as Columbus here and you as the other guys) any less foolish? Joking here…

:-)

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 19, 2010 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

The facts...yours

The FACT is that talent can be acquired other than the draft…and that is the preferred method of GM Jerry.

He has “slotted” the WR position as a high ticket item. He has been among the best at cap management (after paying the Super Bowl thank you’s in ‘99-’01).

Just because you don’t agree, doesn’t change the facts. You simply refuse to agree…you’re worse than those you just slammed….you should know better.

He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. - Thomas Jefferson

by Fighter15 on Mar 19, 2010 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

Gotta be the best at something!

Anyway, other than slamming me, I didn’t see anything worthy of the keystrokes you hit, much less a reply from someone such as myself.

I’ve said this before. You need a new hobby…one that lowers your everyday stress levels(I bet you hear this from others too), and given what you’ve been through, I’m not sure that your poor arguments on BTB are all that cathartic.

Try yoga, my brother.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 19, 2010 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

I have to agree with Blings.

There is no reason not to draft wide receivers. By doing so we only hurt our chance of developing great playmakers. Everyone loves stories like Austin, but imagine if we could pick people with skills like his that can contribute more immediately. Then we wouldn’t have to rely on the RW, Patrick Crayton, and Sam Hurds of the world to fill out our WR corp (in other words people with little consistent playmaking ability).

And while some will say that the WR bust rate is high in the draft, Jerry has in my opinion busted on just under half of his WR free agent/trade acquisitions that come to mind immediately (Glenn, TO were definite hits; Galloway and RW are/have been busts; Keyshawn was somewhere in between).

If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.

by Cowboyfan729 on Mar 19, 2010 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Now you're in trouble...

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 19, 2010 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Excuse me?

I replied to the post you titled “Let the record state.” Nowhere in that post is the word “draft.” So why would I be talking about the draft or drafting WRs? You specifically said “had higher quality #2 and #3 WRs” with no distinction of how those receivers were obtained. Therefore, my reply to that part of the post was totally valid. I can’t read your mind.

Secondly, my debate with you was strictly about Witten and his effect on the WRs numbers versus other WR corps. Why would I go back to “drafting WRs” which is something I was never talking about until this last response with Dez Bryant? You are trying to use your argument about drafting WRs against an entirely different premise. My premise is that Dallas is unique to every other team in the league because their TE is targeted for the most passes. That was all I was talking about.

Maybe you wouldn’t have to repeat yourself if you responded to statements as they are addressed and not how you wish them to be.

by jevans1729 on Mar 19, 2010 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

How is that different than saying that...

Dallas is unique because it’s #2 and #3 WR’s have proven themselves unable to consistently uncover, thus forcing more balls to be thrown to their All-Pro TE?

You can’t blame the other receivers if Romo (and it is his choice alone) throws it more than half the time to two guys.

Sure I can. If they were open, they’d get the ball more. Unless you’re saying that Romo intentionally AVOIDS throwing it to open WR’s in favor of the TE. But, if you go that route, you give credence to T.O.’s comments last year.

So, my friend, which is it?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 19, 2010 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Cowboys have a plan for the draft.

They have a history of moving down in the draft in order to pick up more picks. I see no reason to change it. This strategy along with targeting particular free agents has been successful. It has built them the team they have now. Which is, I hope we’ll all agree, a good team.

I find it strange that in the same post where you espouse the benefits of having a particular plan you ask the Cowboys to abandon the plan they’ve had thus far.

by Arson55 on Mar 16, 2010 5:32 PM CDT reply actions  

No reason to change it?

Why?

Because you like Julius Jones over Steven Jackson?

I think the teams we trade with hope we see no reason to change our strategy.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

If along with Julius Jones I can get a first round pick why not?

Especially if Jones career hadn’t derailed after the first season? You can argue about the player they got with the pick, but that is another matter entirely. That merely being a straight matter of talent evaluation.

Even with the way things turned out it isn’t like the Cowboys are hurting for talent at runningback.

What about moving down, and picking up a pick that helped us get Jenkins? That was sure a mistake wasn’t it? He sucks, and I wish he was never on the team.

by Arson55 on Mar 16, 2010 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Most people wanted to punt Jenkins after the Giants game last year, so it's a bit ironic

I fully support trading down for future #1’s, just not for a lot of 2nd’s 3rd’s and 4th’s.

This is not a team that needs 12 draft picks on their roster. They need key positions bolstered before the window slams shut.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

They only need key positions filled if you're looking for one or two years of playoff runs.

If you’re working to continue building a team that will last, you continue with what you are doing now that is working.

by Arson55 on Mar 16, 2010 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Which is what, exactly?

My point is that they haven’t really done much of the same thing EXCEPT for trading down.

The strategy has led to one playoff win in the last umpteen years and not even a whiff of the bling. All the while, Dallas has had one of the highest payrolls in the NFL.

Said differently, I don’t know if a preponderance of 3rd rounders makes you a good drafting team.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 16, 2010 10:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, but trading down seems to be working.

The problems that led to the long dry spell in the playoffs were due in large part to the the thinking that the team was only a few key players away from another Super Bowl run. I don’t want them to fall into that trap again.

I like the strategy they have of trading down if the players they’re interested in are not available rather than reaching for a player they don’t necessarily feel is good value at that point in the draft. I’d argue that that part of the matter is what makes them a good drafting team.

by Arson55 on Mar 16, 2010 10:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Again, except in the situation where they acquired a future #1, tell me how it has worked?

2004 and 2009 are good examples.

I also, in a previous post, showed how it backfired on the Niners and Pats when they were each riding high in the saddle.

Look, I’m not arguing just to argue, I really want to know why people think that trading out of round 1for a 2nd round pick is a good idea. In theory, I get it. But in practice, it has not worked (again, except when getting a future #1).

Help me understand your position better with examples of how it has worked.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

Trading down

works a lot better than trading up most of the time, you can ask the 9ers that traded up for JJ Stokes, or Ditka (Ricky Williams anyone?). The problem from those drafts wasn’t the trade down it was the players selected, it is easy to say “we could have selected soandso with that pick”, but maybe the bust one pick after that is who we would have picked.

by Ojete on Mar 17, 2010 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

No...it doesn't

Show me a time where it has worked out better.

You simply can’t play quantity-versus-quality game when you have a relatively small number of positions of need like Dallas does.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

We got

Spencer after a trade down

by Ojete on Mar 17, 2010 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Only after trading up

Which is my preferred strategy, not yours.

Try again.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Still

Counts as moving down, our original choice was higher than the pick we used on him.

by Ojete on Mar 18, 2010 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Try something like this...

A study in trade downs…

Awhile back i was trying to figure out whether trading down was always better, or even if the point chart was very acurate. I did a hypothetical trade from the 12th pick to the 23rd pick an additional 2nd rounder and a 4th rounder to make the points match up. Then I went back 10 years to figure which team would have gotten the better deal, and here are the picks…

2009 – Knowshawn Moreno or Michael Oher OT, William Moore SS, and Stanley Arnox LB

2008 – Ryan Clady OT or Rashard Mendenhall RB, Ray Rice RB, and Xavier Adibi OLB

2007 – Marshawn Lynch RB or Dwayne Bowe WR, Josh Wilson CB, and Ryne Robinson WR

2006 – Halati Ngata NT/DE or Davin Joseph G, Andrew Whitworth G/T, and Stephen Gostkowski K

2005 – Shawn Merriman OLB or Fabien Washington CB, Roscoe Parrish WR, and Chase Lyman WR

2004 – Jonothan Vilma ILB or Marcus Tubbs DT, Greg Jones FB, and Anthony Maddox DT

2003 – Jimmy Kennedy DT or Willis McGahee RB, Bryan Scott SS, and Jeremi Johnson FB

2002 – Wendell Bryant DT or Napoleon Harris ILB, Doug Jolly TE, and Chris Luzar TE

2001 – Damione Lewis DT or Duece McAllister RB, Quinton Craver TE, and Ryan Diem OT

2000 – Shaun Ellis DE or Rashard Anderson CB, Fred Robbins DT, and Deon Dyer FB

by Ojete on Mar 17, 2010 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Interesting stuff!

Thanks for putting this up. So what did you glean from this?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 9:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's not about trading up or down...

It’s who you pick and I really don’t trust JJ too much (though it’s gotten much better) so I guess I’d rather give him a lot of swings to get a hit, maybe even a double, than have him swing for the fences once.

by Ojete on Mar 18, 2010 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Now that is an interesting viewpoint and maybe one I hadn't considered

I applaud that kind of reality-based thinking. Your position gives me pause and I’d like some time to think it over before I respond here.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Spreadsheet

I did one for the cowboys using Raf’s trade scenarios, but have absolutkly no idea how to put it up here, copy paste makes it unreadable…
Any ideas? By that I mean step by step instructions for dummies or an e-mail so someone can do it.

by Ojete on Mar 18, 2010 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

I got nuthin...

I can barely get the blockquotes to work on a situational basis. OCC would be the best source since he often uses them.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 10:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

A couple more, upon further investigation...

2001- Pittsburgh moved back and took Casey Hampton

2001- Indianapolis moved back and took Reggie Wayne

2002- Dallas moved back and took S Roy Williams

2003- Kansas City moved back and took Larry Johnson

by Ojete on Mar 17, 2010 5:52 PM CDT reply actions  

But those are all moves back later into round 1

That’s not been a Dallas trademark move.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 10:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's kinda hard

to move back in the same round when you’re at 27, and IIRC Hampton was picked in the 2nd.

by Ojete on Mar 18, 2010 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hampton
  1. in the first round in 2001.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

ARGH!

That should have said, “#19 in round 1 of 2001”

When will we see a formatting change that allows us to use “#”? Eesh!

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Absolutly correct

I guess I was thinking of Shaun Rogers

by Ojete on Mar 18, 2010 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

No worries

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 11:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Who really won in that Eli/rivers trade?

Seems like Rivers is the better QB, but Eli has the bling.

I give it to the G-men.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 17, 2010 10:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yup

Trent Dilfer rocks!

Viva México! Go Cowboys!

by Chandus on Mar 18, 2010 3:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

Shorter, slighter QB winning a bling (Brees) gives more hope to Romo and Dallas

IT’S ALL ABOUT THE BLINGS!!!!

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

Last team standing

That’s my opinion.

The team that wins, has the best TEAM.

Not the best QB. A good QB is incredibly important, but Dilfer was a bus driver that drove a limo on his way to winning the whole thing.

Eli is a really good QB, but the Cowboys wouldn’t trade Romo for Eli straight up, neither would the Chargers, they’re both better QBs, it’s just that Eli had the better TEAM in 2007.

Viva México! Go Cowboys!

by Chandus on Mar 18, 2010 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Last Team Standing is my opinion also

The question was who got the better of the trade, the Giants or the Chargers. Given that the Giants won a Super Bowl with a player aquired in that trade, and the Chargers have not done the same, at this point the Giants have the better of the trade. 5Blings and I agreed that the reason teams play every year is for the ‘bling.’ You responded with a non sequitur concerning Trent Dilfer, who was never part of the discussion.

Do you think that the Giants got the better of that deal? I truly do not know, but I am quite sure that you believe that Trent Dilfer is a ‘bus driver’ albeit one with a Super Bowl Ring

Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey

by Seanrude on Mar 18, 2010 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Chargers

Phillips is the better QB.

The fact that Eli won a Championship is irrelevant, he won as a player of his TEAM and the Giants didn’t received the 53 players that played that year with that trade.

Viva México! Go Cowboys!

by Chandus on Mar 18, 2010 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

You mean Rivers

…and do you take into account that Rivers has a much better set of skill players surrounding him than Eli does on offense? Do you account for a pass-first versus run-first scheme?

It’s like saying Steve Young was better than Aikman because Young could run and had gaudier stats. Aikman was asked to do something completely different than Young in much the same way Eli is asked to do something different than Rivers.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

I like to look at things like this...

could Rivers have done the same thing Eli did with that team?

I don’t know the exact answer, but I don’t think the dropoff would have been horrible.

John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 18, 2010 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Eli wouldn't have shouted at Denver fans like Rivers did

I think Eli’s maturity, especially given the scrutiny he was under, was admirable.

He was the #1 pick. He grew into the position and got better. He overcame a lot of adversity and won it all.

Being in Southern California, I can tell you that Rivers’ head gets called into question a lot.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hey you won't get me defending him...

I think Rivers is a douche.

John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 18, 2010 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Can we say "douche" on here?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

I also believe that Rivers is a douche...

But from seeing him, I know that he’s the better QB.

Oh, and we aren’t talking about right now, late in the 2007 season and in the Playoffs the Giants had the best team in the League. Can you say the same thing about the Chargers? They have talent, but they have serious short comings, just like our team.

Viva México! Go Cowboys!

by Chandus on Mar 18, 2010 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think the Giants just ran into a perfect storm.

I give them credit but there were things that just worked for them.

John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 18, 2010 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

They did what a lot of teams do

when they win a SB. They played their best ball at the right time, in the playoffs.

by DIRE WOLF on Mar 18, 2010 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm sure Landry isn't the only coach that wants his players to play best in the playoffs.

I still think that Giants didn’t just play their best ball, they also had some nice little breaks in the Super Bowl.

John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 18, 2010 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

CHampionships are not irrelevant. They are not the only factor to measure a player, but they are a factor

Put it this way: Without all the bling bling, Tom Brady is Carson Palmer with a weaker arm

Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey

by Seanrude on Mar 18, 2010 7:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

You must be thinking....

Carson Palmer 4 years ago.

Palmer’s arm lately has been horrible.

John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 18, 2010 7:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

I used to believe that P Manning was the best QB in the League

Even before his team won a Super Bowl.

I think that you’re underestimating what the Patriots Defense used to be… It used to be a 4 Dimensions rubick cube for P Manning because they were so versatile…

For example, against the Eagles in the Super Bowl they showed something that they hadn’t shown during the whole year, a 2-5 package as their regular Defense, the purpose was stopping Westbrook and they did, for the most part.

That Defense was great, it isn’t surprizing that they aren’t that good now after all this years…

Oh, and about me being enamored with numbers… 5Blings threw to me the names of Aikman and Young… Well, Aikman showed of what he was capable in the Playoffs in a consistent basis, the guy responded with his best level of play at the most important times and did so with numbers.

Eli? Not so much, he was actually asked to try not to do too much in the Playoffs…

Viva México! Go Cowboys!

by Chandus on Mar 18, 2010 10:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

You are the King of the Straw Man Arguments

Where did I even mention the Pats Defense? I said that Brady would not be held in as high esteem as he is without all the rings that he has. Brady’s rep was built on his performance in the playoffs and Super Bowls. You said that Championships were irrelevant when assessing Quarterbacks. I disagreed with that. You changed the subject to the Pats defense.

I give up.

Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey

by Seanrude on Mar 18, 2010 10:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

And his shoulder, his knee, his wrist, his finger...

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 11:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

LOL @ non sequitur

THAT was my earlier point.

I just chose to use English instead of Latin.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

We will Mick

In fact, those questions get asked and answered every year…

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 10:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

No the ultimate answer won't be known until much later.

And as idiotic as his shenanigans off the field are, I think there should be an option C for the Steelers actually benefiting the most from the deal between the two teams since after all Big Ben does have two blings including a non-flukish Super Bowl winning TD drive.

by MadMick on Mar 18, 2010 10:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good point about Ben

I don’t know if there is ever an ultimate answer to these questions, is there?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 10:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, when their careers are finished and if one player..

….Ends up with more rings than the other guy. That was my point.

by MadMick on Mar 18, 2010 11:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hmmmm

So if all of their careers ended today, you’d say Ben is a better QB than Peyton?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 11:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

No, I never said my criteria for measuring the better QB was blings.

Also should Big Ben or Peyton fear for their lives or something?

by MadMick on Mar 18, 2010 11:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Here's the thing.

Jim McMahon was a Super Bowl Champion by his 4th season. Mark Rypien; his 5th season.

Poor John Elway had to wait until his 15th season to become a Super Bowl Champion but wouldn’t you just know he followed that up with another ring in his 16th season?

by MadMick on Mar 18, 2010 11:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Romo doesn't have that long...

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 11:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Shouldn't EVERY QB?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 11:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Apparently, he likes riding other things too...

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 11:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

That McNulty certainly was a handsome broad.

And no, that’s not to be taken as a compliment.

Big Ben’s transgressions certainly seem to prove that a guy can be a total doofus off the field and still have the meddle to get it done in the ultimate pressure situation.

by MadMick on Mar 18, 2010 11:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ken Stabler, Joe Namath

He’s in lofty comapny.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 19, 2010 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

Eli didn't win

it by himself and if the roles were reversed my guess Rivers wins that one bling too…
Plus the chargers got Keading and Merriman fropm that trade too IIRC.

by Ojete on Mar 18, 2010 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Rivers throws a bunch of pics

One thing that helped the G-Men win it all was Eli’s protection of the ball (Romo, please take notice).

Don’t forget, the Chargers ran Brees and his torn labrum out of town in favor of Rivers and then Brees goes on and wins a bling.

That’s two former Charger QB’s (Eli, if only for a moment) who’ve won a bling.

Hmmmm.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well...

Rivers doesn’t throw any more picks than Eli.

Eli might have better composure but River has a TD:INT of 71:44 over the past three years where River is 83:35.

You might not like Rivers but he isn’t more of a turnover machine.

John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 18, 2010 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

More popular fiction. Eli had 22 turnovers last season compared to Romo's 13.

Now granted the Giants defense sucked last year thus Eli was in catch-up mode a lot more than Romo was.

But in the ’07 regular season, Eli had 27 turnovers versus 23 TD passes.

Again people tend to forget all this because of how excellent Eli was at being efficient in the ‘07 postseason where even his one INT was because of a bobbled pass by his intended receiver. But what of Eli’s three other playoff appearances? 7 turnovers in 3 games. Since Eli became the starter in ‘05, he’s averaged 20 turnovers per season. Romo averages slightly more turnovers per game but the bottom line is they both turn the ball over at the same rate. There’s as much reason to believe that Eli’s 12-turnover season in ‘08 was an anamoly as Romo’s 13-turnover season last season.

As far as Romo goes, multiple turnover games are his real undoing. The incessant whining any time Romo throws a single interception like he’s the dumbest most irresponsible QB to play the game is rather uncalled for. Why you ask. Well, because in games where Romo has only one turnover, the Cowboys are 21-5(including playoffs.)

by MadMick on Mar 18, 2010 9:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Here's the thing...

You can deride him all you want, but Eli still has the bling. It immediately puts him into a conversation about QB’s that doesn’t include Rivers or Romo.

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 10:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Duh. And double duh.

And going into this postseason, Drew Brees’ opposing QB counterparts had 27 combined playoff wins to his measly 1.

by MadMick on Mar 18, 2010 11:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Things turn on a dime, for sure...

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 18, 2010 11:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

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