Cowboys Draft '10, Part Twelve: Managing the 1st and 2nd Round Turns (Part Two)
The Cowboys go through dozens of mock drafts in the final days leading up to the draft, forcing every different permutation you can imagine, so they're not caught flat footed when their time comes on the clock.
What if there's a run on offensive tackles early? Who would they consider at 27? What if the draft skews heavy towards defense? What if there's an early run on receivers?
Most likely, they have to consider what would happen if all the players with first round grades are gone. Let's say, for argument's sake, that there are 24 first ground grades handed out. That's what Dallas awarded last year. And let's say, that they're all gone by pick 25. Is this the end of the world?
Hardly.
We often remark that the early 2nd round is rich in talent. And it is. Look at the top players there in any given year and chances are you'll see a group with better value than guys in the top 10 or 15 overall. What people frequently do is mistake the player taken at 33 as the top 2nd rounder.
In most years, the 2nd round, in terms of grade, starts at pick 23, 24, 25 or somewhere close. Dallas should then, in the worst case scenario, emerge with one of the players with the highest 2nd round grades on its board. However, the board at this point becomes much more fluid and need-based here, for one major reason.
I've been told that the differences in grades between players in the 25-40 range are often very slight. In cases like this, teams take players they need more. This creates some of the churn we've discussed before. Positions where supply is generally smaller, OT, DE, DT QB, and CB tend to rise. Positions which are somewhat easier to fill, RB, TE, OG, ILB, tend to fall.
Let's look at two recent examples of how this can work for or against your team. In '04, the Cowboys pick came up at 22, right on the 1st-2nd round fault line. The team had RB Stephen Jackson ranked highest, but had very similar 2nd round grades on Virginia Tech RB Kevin Jones and Notre Dame RB Julius Jones. These similarities factored into the Cowboys decision to accept Buffalo's offer of their 2nd and '05 1st for that 22nd pick.
To fans at home, it seemed incredible that Dallas would trade from the 1st into the 2nd, but if you viewed it on a board where all three were 2nd round backs, the move makes more sense. Jackson has had a much better pro career than Jones did, but the board dictated value. So did Jones' rookie-year play, though he could never replicated it.
Conversely, need-based picks worked in Dallas' favor in '08. They got two value picks with Felix Jones and Mike Jenkins, then were amazed when Martellus Bennett, a player in their 20s, with one of the highest 2nds they assigned, dropped all the way to 61. This value certainly factored into the team's decision to rebuff a trade offer for Bennett last year. They knew he would take time to develop, but were not willing to sell out their original rating on him.
The same formulas applies to the late 2nd, early 3rd. Where first rounds usually run about 21-22 players deep in most year, the 2nd round grades run a bit deeper, but not extremely larger -- it ranges 29-30 picks or so. This means the Cowboys pick at 59 will iikely see them choosing from players with early 3rd round grades.
This fault line around pick 50-51 may explain Dallas' decision to trade out of the 2nd in recent year. In both '07 and '09 Dallas saw Steve Smith and Max Unger go just ahead of them. In both cases the Cowboys saw players available with grades similar to those a dozen or so picks below, and were willing to move down to get extra picks.
This year's draft is supposed to be deeper, but how much deeper? Will there really be, say, 28 1st round grades this year, or will Dallas again see a situation where the players in both the 1st and 2nd round picks really gives the Cowboys choices among the top 2nd and 3rd rounders?
We won't know until the real picks start. In the meantime, take a hard look at the guys the mockers put at the top of the 2nd round,or the guys with 1st-2nd round grades. Look at the top 5-10 in that grouping. Do the same for the 2nd-3rd round guys.
These are most likely the prospects Dallas will have to consider.
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Comments
I don't think that it's as deep at the top...
Wouldn’t be surprized to see you hearing that 23-24 prospects were rated as 1st Rounders by the Cowboys, but to hear that there are between 30 and 40 players rated as 2nd Rounders wouldn’t, either…
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
Hold on a sec
Stephen Jackson was rated as a second-rounder? This blows my mind.
No wonder Cowboys fans have had a skeptical look at the Cowboys drafting operations in the past.
Movie Reference
by accidental innuendo on Mar 2, 2010 7:47 PM CST reply actions
SAVE FOR THE FACT THAT ALL OF THE TEAMS BEFORE DALLAS
had the same draft grade of him… or he would’ve picked earlier
2009 BTB Part Deux Fantasy League Champion. 'Kill Everybody 13-2'. KDP knows football.
by KDP on Mar 3, 2010 6:07 AM CST up reply actions
Let's be clear
Jackson wasn’t rated a 2nd rounder.
Every draft board had him as the best RB that year and clearly higher than Julius Jones.
Having not drank the Parcell’s Kool-Aid that that killed me five years ago when it happened. Still kills me. I could never understand it either since Jackson even looked like he fit the Parcell’s mold of big physical back. Plain incomprehensible.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Mar 3, 2010 1:23 PM CST up reply actions
Huh?
I could never understand it either since Jackson even looked like he fit the Parcell’s mold of big physical back.
You haven’t heard of Curtis Martin, have you?
And then you hear that Julius Jones was often compared to Curtis Martin coming out of College…
That was indeed a huge failure, but things aren’t that simple when it comes to drafting… For example, Demarcus Ware was available for the 11th pick… One of the best defensive players in the League… Mike Jenkins should have been picked ahead of McKelvin, Rodgers-Cromartie and Talib… And right behind Jenkins the guy having the best level of play is Flowers, who was drafted in the 2nd Round…
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
of course ... but I was thinking of the Giants winning with Otis Anderson
maybe it was similarity to Curtis Martin that sold Parcells.
There’s a ton of stuff that Parcells did that was great. That year was painful though. Dallas had a glaring need at RB and Jackson was the top rated RB. A bunch of mock drafts even had Jackson going to Dallas. And Jackson was sitting there but Parcells passed to take Julius Jones. Doh!
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Mar 3, 2010 4:44 PM CST up reply actions
Just because you're rated as the first RB doesn't mean you're rated as the best running back.
I’m with you and wish they’d taken Jackson, but I can see where Bill was going.
It does seem like running backs can be found anywhere.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 3, 2010 5:03 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not sure I understand the distinction between
“rated as the first RB” and “rated as the best running back”
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Mar 3, 2010 5:52 PM CST up reply actions
Sorry...
Meant to say just because you are the first RB rated doesn’t mean you have a first round grade.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 3, 2010 6:11 PM CST up reply actions
See, here's the issue
It stings because Jackson turned out to be exactly the kind of back I envisioned he would be … except it was not on the Cowboys at a time when we in dire need of a dominant tailback.
And to squander all that luck it took for him to fall to us …
Movie Reference
by accidental innuendo on Mar 3, 2010 8:30 PM CST up reply actions
I mean, c'mon
He was a first-round grade AND his play has borne out his seeding.
Movie Reference
by accidental innuendo on Mar 3, 2010 8:31 PM CST up reply actions
I know...
I felt when he fell there that there was no way Dallas didn’t pick him.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 3, 2010 8:32 PM CST up reply actions
Ditto
That was the most disappointed/surprised I’ve been watching the drafts. (I didn’t get into them until after the Quincy Carter debacle)
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
I was shocked
and awed. Aw, hell!
It's fun to do bad things. -Latarian Milton
by TexasGarcia37 on Mar 3, 2010 8:48 PM CST up reply actions
Not trading away Marty B for a 1st rounder last year was retarded
How many passes went his way all year? 15? With Phillips emergence we could have afforded to get rid of Marty and address another area on our team that we really need this year and draft another tight end later on in the draft this year. He just hasn’t shown me near enough to even come close to considering him a first round talent.
agreed - I'm not wild about Martellus
but going into the season with a rookie 5th rounder as #82s backup would have been dicey.
by I_miss_Switzer on Mar 2, 2010 10:57 PM CST up reply actions
John Phillips?
The newly drafted TE would be numero 3 unless he was capable of passing Phillips
1st rounder from Cincy
3 tight ends went down on IR last year
really?
So imo that would have been a dumb trade. Why would you draft someone in the second, develope him for a year and trade him for another second? To be considered at all, I would think it would need to be a first.(At that point)
With marty bs production this year, I can see how that argument could be made.
by TONYINCC on Mar 2, 2010 11:07 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
From everything I read it was a first rounder from Cincy
Remember they had 3 different tight ends go on IR last year including their rookie Chase Coffman from Mizzou. Needless to say a team isn’t going to offer the same round pick we took him from because they would know theres no chance of that happening.
Yeah and the trade proposal for Marty B was just before the trade deadline
I don’t have a link bc I read it last year but I’ll see if I can find one. No way would a team offer a 2nd for him after he was drafted in the 2nd and was in his 2nd season with a lot of upside (supposedly).
Teams that are focused on winning now
don’t trade players for draft picks in the middle of the season. No way Jerry ever does that at the trade deadline, with a team that looks competitive
by AustonianAggie on Mar 3, 2010 8:55 AM CST up reply actions
Um Jerry didn't do it because he doesn't trade away his young players
That may be true – but – the only 2 older players who were unessential were Montrae Holland and the back up QB, this wasn’t like 2004 or 5 when we had Jason Ferguson and LaRoy Glover at NT
by AustonianAggie on Mar 3, 2010 9:07 AM CST up reply actions
Dude I'm not talking about over the hill players
Just not guys in their first couple seasons. What trade value do guys in their 30’s have?
Who else are the older players Jerry would trade? and niether of those guys were over the hill then
by AustonianAggie on Mar 3, 2010 9:32 AM CST up reply actions
You're obviously missing the point
And at that point in their career Glover had zero trade value and Ferguson’s value was nowhere near Marty B’s. I’m saying if we recieved “a firm, significant offer with a chance at a lot of consideration” for a player in their mid to late 20’s Jerry would have jumped all over it. He just doesn’t like trading away really young players. I know Marty B is your boy (if the aggie in your name refers to A&M) but we could have either got a first rounder or several picks for him before the trade deadline and we should have done it based on his production dropping off from his rookie to second year. Sorry but after Marty said he thought he could teleport after we drafted him I lost all hope and his on the field production certainly hasn’t changed my mind.
jerry needs to figure out how to get
3 2nd round picks, we would be golden, if he could pull that off.
Side note: why the hell are they having the pro bowl before the super bowl again? MORONS!
by TONYINCC on Mar 2, 2010 8:48 PM CST via mobile reply actions
REALLY????
Wow, I understand the concept from that perspective, but the coaches, players, and fans hate it. It makes the game even more illegitimate.
by TONYINCC on Mar 2, 2010 10:23 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
fans don't hate it if more of themare watching it than ever
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
28 players with 1st round grades would be rare indeed.
I’m confident a very good prospect will be there when the Pokes pick at 27. If they could work a trade for an extra 2nd round pick, ie, Bennett to Cincinatti, then they would be able to bring in 2 highly rated prospects to develop for the O-line. Jerry has something up his sleeve. I think the Bennett to Cincy deal is back on the table. Jerry doesn’t make comments like he did they other day unless he’s got an ace in the hole. Carson Palmer needs a big target in the middle. I could see us getting Cincy’s 2nd for Bennett.
When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather -- not screaming like the passengers in his car.
Quincy, how are we going to get...
Tate by trading out of the first?
by Beuerleincouldhavebeenbetterthentroy on Mar 2, 2010 9:32 PM CST reply actions
Well the teams picking directly after us
are unlikely to take a WR.
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Mar 2, 2010 9:38 PM CST up reply actions
Fair point
I forgot about the Jets
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Mar 2, 2010 9:46 PM CST up reply actions
I'd prefer Demaryius Thomas
That kid could end up being the best WR in the draft.
by ChrisRichey on Mar 2, 2010 11:33 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Good write up
I would hope if all of the players with a 1rst round grade are gone Jerry would trade back, but only if he gets good value. Honestly though I really would prefer to target a guy and trade up about 7 spots to get him. We do not need to add 7 or 8 bodies. IMO we need to add 2-3 potential starters.
I'm not entirely sure drafting Bennett has worked out in the Cowboys' favor just yet
we need to see something consistently productive first.
"Drinks are on me if Lewis posts >168IP and an era lower than 3.86." by RangerMad on Jan 20, 2010 12:36 PM PST
+1
He has yet to prove anything, other than he can scare the Bucs secondary.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
The Tuna was a Mole...
Forget the that Mrs. Doubtfire raided the Cowboys staff, see Sparano & Jeff Ireland, before the Giants playoff game – even though it was against NFL rules to verbally agree to a contract during the playoffs – let’s consider the evidence that the Tuna sold the Cowboys brass on the idea that Julius Jones was “similar” to Stephen Jackson, if the above report is true. Besides running out Emmitt Smith and Larry Allen because of his hate for the Dallas legacy, Parcells kept the Cowboys at bay while the Giants won a Super Bowl, due to his intentional misinformation poor talent evaluations.
that's an interesting argument, but
I think Parcells is concerned only about his near-term happiness and his own personal legacy, not whether a staff he has no association with takes the Giants to the super bowl. And I’d probably be the same way if I were in his shoes.
by speedmetal on Mar 3, 2010 12:59 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
How do you explain D-Ware then?
Most people (myself included) wanted Merriman or (shudder) Spears at that pick. He saw that Ware was the next LT.
Why engage with Tex? Now that Romo is clearly in the top echelon of QBs, he needs to focus on something else, so he comes up with this bizarre conspiracy theory featuring Parcells
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
To be fair...
Tex has had that theory for like 4 years.
He used to say that there were Parcells moles in the organization. It was silly.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 3, 2010 5:05 PM CST up reply actions
Tuna wanted to draft Spears at
the Ware pick, but was overruled by the scouts and Jerry. He got Spears later in the first so everyone was happy.
I just don't understand
how only 21 or so players have first round grades, and only 29 have second round grades and yet everyone seems to think this draft is top-heavy in talent. If only 50 players are legitimately first day talent, but there are at least 64 selected, wouldn’t that mean that this year is thin at the top of the draft? And if it’s just that every year we grade fewer than 64 players as first day material, then isn’t something wrong with our grading?
by speedmetal on Mar 3, 2010 1:10 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Fault lines
I had to laugh at the analogy of Dallas sitting on the fault lines in this draft. And they are sitting there not just once but twice.
Sitting on these fault lines can go well quite often, but also carries the risk of serious bodily harm: If Jerry botches this draft I can already see Seanrude making his way out of the swamps of Jersey to administer some corporal discipline at Valley Ranch.
by One.Cool.Customer on Mar 3, 2010 1:56 AM CST reply actions
Raf,
when you say something like
Let’s say, for argument’s sake, that there are 24 first ground grades handed out.
When you are discussing Dallas’ first round grades, would those include grades of every position? By which I mean would the Dallas FO decide, for example, we are happy with our QB situation and then not give first round grades to players such as Clausen or Bradford because they would seemingly have no interest in them?
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
I am not sure
But it would seem that they would grade out positions that they werent going to draft in order to place a potential trade value with another team. Like trading pick 22 for Brady Quinn. I think they had a first round grade on him.
They would have to grade all positions for the theory to work accurately
Otherwise their pre-draft mocks would be invalid.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
Good Points
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Mar 4, 2010 2:10 AM CST up reply actions
Is tex really that stupid?
or is he just acting like a drunken Troll?
U FORGOT THE STRIKE THROUGH FOR ACTING
2009 BTB Part Deux Fantasy League Champion. 'Kill Everybody 13-2'. KDP knows football.
by KDP on Mar 3, 2010 7:41 AM CST up reply actions
Y'all see this video of the top 40 times being ran?
NFL network sync’d up the videos of the run; it appears to show Taylor Mays out ahead of everyone – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDhYKZHKh4Q
I’m still not sold on Taylor Mays

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