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Inside the Numbers: The 2009 Cowboys Passing Game (Part I)

The 2009 Cowboys offense broke records left and right. The franchise record 6,390 yards on offense eclipsed the 1978 Cowboys (5,916), and was good enough for the number two spot in the NFL, a paltry 71 yards behind the New Orleans Saints.

In the passing game, Miles Austin set a franchise record with 250 receiving yards in a single game against Kansas City. The Cowboys receivers racked up a league leading 2,154 yards after catch. Tony Romo threw for a career high and franchise record 4,483 yards, and entered the "official" NFL leaderboards by surpassing 1,500 career passing attempts and thus qualifying for the NFL record books. Here's an (updated) excerpt from ColdHardFootballFacts.com:

So Romo enters the record books today in some very, very lofty company. His career passer rating of 95.6 is second all time. Here's the top five in career passer rating:

Steve Young: 96.8, Tony Romo: 95.6, Peyton Manning: 95.2, Kurt Warner: 93.7, Tom Brady: 93.3

Now look at the top five in career passing yards per attempt:

- Otto Graham: 8.63, Sid Luckman: 8.42, Norm Van Brocklin: 8.16, Tony Romo: 8.10, Steve Young: 7.98

Tony Romo is not only in the top five all time, he's the most prolific passer since Norm Van Brocklin retired at the end of the 1960 season. He's also one of just two players who appears on both lists, with Steve Young. This indicates that he's produced the highly efficient rating indicative of the modern game, with the very high average per attempt more common in earlier years of NFL football, before the "ball-control" style passing game became all the rage."

Was the Cowboys’ passing game really as good as as these stats suggest, and is all that glitters really gold? Follow me as we turn the incorruptible eye of Expected Points Value (EPV) on our passing game to uncover the truth behind the stats.

Star-divide

Dallas Cowboys passing game EPV

Tony Romo was the only QB to throw passes for the Cowboys in the 2009 season. So the numbers we'll look at as we examine the 2009 Cowboys passing game are Romo's numbers. But I prefer to talk of the 'Cowboys passing game' instead of 'Romo's passing game' because the EPV that I use is the value of each play, not the value of each player (Go back to my previous post if you would like a refresher on EPV).

As the old saying goes, "Success has many fathers, while failure is an orphan". Football is a team sport, and the credit or blame for each pass is shared by many players and coaches.

The base numbers of the passing game we'll be looking at today include touchdowns, interceptions, completions and incompletions (two spikes are excluded). Just as a reminder, interceptions weigh particularly heavy on EPV, because EPV measures the expected points value before the play and after the play, based on down, distance and field position - in the case of an interception, field position would be the opponent's field position. In terms of EPV, a pick six is simply deadly. Luckily, the Cowboys only had one last season, and here is how the pick six from the first Giants game breaks down in EPV:

3-10-DAL 24 (2:56) (Shotgun) T.Romo pass short right intended for P.Crayton INTERCEPTED by B.Johnson at DAL 34. B.Johnson for 34 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

The starting EPV on third-and-ten on Dallas' 24 yard line is -0.38. Not a good position to start with. The interception by Bruce Johnson resulted in -6.3 EPV, as 6.3 is the value we use for a TD. The value of the play was therefore -6.3 minus -0.38 equals -5.92.

In total, the Cowboys attempted 548 passes in 2009 which resulted in an EPV of 171.37, or 0.31 per pass attempt.

Is this number good or bad? To be honest, I don't really know. Until I do the same EPV excercise for all other teams and QBs the only thing I have to compare this with is the EPV of the Cowboys opponents in 2009:  Their 572 pass attempts (excluding one spike) resulted in an EPV of 80.62, or 0.14 per play. 

This result suggests that the Cowboys' passing game generated twice the value of that of our opponents. Here's how those numbers compare with the more traditional passer rating in 2009:

Passing game comparison, 2009

Passer rating EPV
Dallas Cowboys
97.6 171.37
Opponents
83.5 80.62

Because the difference in EPV is much bigger than in passer rating, this may initially look like something is wrong with the EPV numbers. But this is actually consistent with how EPV is calculated. EPV values a long pass much more than a short pass, in fact, if you dink and dunk your way up the field with little four and five yards passes, your EPV will likely be negative (Dallas had a passing YPA of 8.2 and allowed only 6.8 YPA).

Versus the passer rating, EPV places a high value on converting a play for a first down (Dallas made 203 passing first downs while allowing only 186). EPV also gives TDs and turnovers a much higher weight than the passer rating ( Dallas scored 29 passing TDs while allowing only 19)

Passing by downs - Trouble on third downs

In terms of EPV, passes on third down generated less value than on any other down situation. We've already analyzed our third down play in a lot of detail ("Cowboys Third Down Offense") and found that

A) No other quarterback in the NFL has had to pass on more third and long situations than Tony Romo (76 pass attempts on third and 8+ yards).

B) The Cowboys last season did not have an effective play/receiver to convert 3rd and medium passing situations.


Attempts EPV EPV/PA
1st 204 72.17 0.35
2nd
194 62.81 0.32
3rd
144 29.25 0.20
4th
6 7.14 1.19

The official stats show that last season the Cowboys managed to convert 40.5% of their third downs (82/202), and ranked a middling 14th in the NFL. That 40.5% conversion rate is the lowest for a Cowboys team since 2005. The one piece of good news in this stat is that the 202 third downs were actually the sixth fewest in the NFL (the NFL average was 215) - looks like the Cowboys offense was pretty good at avoiding third down situations all together.

Passing by distance required - Give the man some room

The Cowboys passing game generated the most value when working against 8+ yards situations, and was distinctly less effective in shorter yardage situations.


Attempts EPV EPV/PA
Short (1-3) 49 -0.66 -0.01
Medium (4-7) 114 18.9 0.17
Long (8-10) 287 130.1 0.45
Very Long (11+) 98 23.0 0.23

Passing by direction - Money in the middle

Let's take a look at the EPV values by distance and direction (note: long passes are those that travel 15 yards or more through the air):

DirectionAttempts EPV EPV/PA
Short Pass Left 153 42.5 0.28
Middle
118 63.5 0.54
Right 195 10.5 0.05
Long Pass Left 29 5.4 0.19
Middle 22
22.0 1.00
Right 31
27.5 0.89

Two things immediately jump out as I look at this table:

First, the Cowboys liked throwing the ball to the right: they threw the ball to the right side of the field 24% more than they threw the ball to the left side, and a full 61% more than up the middle of the field. Particularly the lack of throws up the middle is a little disconcerting. If a guy sitting Germany and fooling around with an Excel sheet can see this trend, I would assume that opposing defenses knew all about it.

Second, and much more worrying, is that the EPV of short passes to the right is alarmingly low. Think of it this way: short passes to the left generated more than five times the value of a short pass to the right, passes up the middle generated eleven times more value.

I initially thought that this might be because of interceptions and turnovers that mess up the averages, so I looked it up. And yes, of the seven turnovers on short passes, four were to the right, two up the middle and only one to the left. But when I took the turnovers out of the calculation, the EPV didn't change significantly. The turnover adjusted EPV for short passes: right: 0.15, left: 0.30, middle: 0.57.

Now, if you're thinking "Hmmm, didn't Roy Williams line up on the right a lot?" let me disabuse you of that thought right away. We'll look at individual receivers in a separate post, but for now, trust me that Roy Williams had nothing to do with the short right woes, he was one of the few receivers whose numbers were actually better (albeit on a fairly low level) on short passes to the right.

Short passes to the right are something the Cowboys need to look at in training camp, and they also need to figure out a way to get more passes up the middle.

Passes by formation - Shotgun Blues

When I ran the numbers by how Romo lined up before a play, under center or in a shotgun formation, I was expecting what you'd assume for most NFL passing games: the shotgun would be more valuable. Turns out I was wrong:

FormationAttempts EPV EPV/PA
Pass Shotgun 358 107.7 0.29
Under Center
180 63.7 0.35
Run Shotgun 58 7.8 0.13
Under Center 361 8.5 0.02

In 2007, the Patriots became the first NFL team to run the shotgun formation on more than 50 percent of their plays. In theory, the shotgun gives defenses an easy key (especially for d-line and linebackers) to focus on the pass rush and not worry about the run as much. But the Patriots did ride it to a 16-0 record. So much for the theory.

So let's take a look at Garrett's playbook this year and see how it compares to last year. In 2008, Garrett had the shotgun on the field for 43.9% of the Cowboys offensive plays (excl. knees & spikes). It remained basically unchanged at 43.5% this year.

Looking at the numbers in the table, there is no reason why the Cowboys shouldn't pass more from under center. The EPV ic clearly higher, and the more traditional YPA is also higher from under center. Also, passing more from under center would add an extra element of surprise to our offense more often.

Obviously the runs from the shotgun are a small base, but with the type of running attack the Cowboys have, mixing in a little more runs from the shotgun formation might not be the worst strategy either.

Next time, we look at wide receivers. Does Miles Austin really stand head and shoulders above the rest, how big a disappointment was Roy Williams, whatever happened to Jason Witten and is it time to free the Ogletree?

[Special tip of the hat to Brian Burke at advancednflstats.com for providing the EPV data. Follow the link if you want to dig deeper into EPV. TJ Johnson at the MileHighReport here on SB Nation also has a great series running on EPV which I highly recommend.]

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First

part was very informative. Thanks OCC

RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.

by aussie_cowboy on Mar 21, 2010 11:15 PM CDT reply actions  

This SECONDS the opinion

that with a better pass blocking O Line we would be a perrenial power

by Travlr on Mar 21, 2010 11:20 PM CDT reply actions  

Wow

Romo is a stat god.

With all our skill position players coming back we should even have bigger numbers next year.

Austin starting off the year should help us improve our record.

All the stats make Garrett look good too.

How about those Cowboys (yeah I miss Jimmy Johnson)

by TCB Orange Dino on Mar 21, 2010 11:57 PM CDT reply actions  

Not aimed directly at you

but I have always wondered at the notion that Romo is only about stats.

His winning record is also incredible.

FREE THE OGLETREE!!!

by dunkman on Mar 22, 2010 7:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

Still need to be able to power run when needed.

That is the part of the offense that has suffered greatly under Garret.

by Flounder69 on Mar 22, 2010 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hard to blame Garrett for the shortcomings of the OLine

If anything, the calls have been MUCH less predictable than under Parcells. Sometimes you need to be able to just play smash-mouth football, but this OLine hardly seems up to the task.

Doomsday returns... Wade Phillips style.

by DalaiLuke on Mar 22, 2010 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think that is a Garrett thing.

Even Bill wasn’t able to just pound it up the middle.

John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 22, 2010 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

That it happened under Garrett

is coinscidence, I think. As Raf’s previous analysis has demonstrated, they are not a good middle blocking team. I call it explosiveness – they can’t initiate the contact with the D-line. They do fine once they get running – pulling, traps, that sort of thing, but anything that calls for them to beat the D-line to the punch is a losing proposition.

As they draft lineman and get them into the game, that’ll likely change, but it’ll take a while to overhaul this line.

FREE THE OGLETREE!!!

by dunkman on Mar 22, 2010 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Shotgun

I believe the reason for the use of the shotgun so much may be to help keep the pass rush off-balance, as our O-Line can’t pass protect effectively. The many draws from the shotgun were effective as running plays, but also in giving pass rushers something to think about.

So, I’m all for an OT in the first round if one falls (unlikely) or Pouncey as our future center/current guard to protect up the middle and hopefully improve the runs in short yardage.

by just4fun on Mar 22, 2010 12:22 AM CDT reply actions  

OCC

Dude, you are going above and beyond w/ this stuff, this is the reason BTB is the best sports blog and by far the best place for any and all Cowboys related content

by nicholas.rodriguez on Mar 22, 2010 12:50 AM CDT reply actions  

I have always felt we needed to use the shotgun less.

I know that many say it helps out our offensive line, but I have always felt that it simply invites the other team to pin their ears back (even with the threat of the draw) and exploit the speed deficiencies of our line. To me, it always seemed like Tony got the best pockets when we threw out of our running formations since it made the defensive lineman a step slow up the field and let our bigger offensive lineman get their hands on them.

If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.

by Cowboyfan729 on Mar 22, 2010 1:01 AM CDT reply actions  

shotgun or not...

i would like to see more runs on first down. I hate it when we throw an incomplete on 1st down and try to run it on 2nd down, thinking the defense would be fooled. This is why Romo leads the NFL on passes of 3rd and long of 8 yards and more. Against a dominating Dline, Romo will find himself in trouble due to the fact that the receivers usually runs a longer route to get the needed 1st down.

by LiLGiT on Mar 22, 2010 2:01 AM CDT reply actions  

That's not the only reason

As Raf has pointed out, this team runs best off of deception and misdirection.

Until they have a more explosive line, they are going to struggle running straight ahead, which is a weapon they have to have to keep 3rd down yardage manageable.

FREE THE OGLETREE!!!

by dunkman on Mar 22, 2010 7:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

Great job O.C.C.

This is really enlightening stuff. Takeaways seem to be:
1. Romo is very, very underrated. He is one of the all-time greats.
2. We need a 3rd down chain-mover who can get open over the middle (and Roy Williams isn’t it).

by JimmyJohnson on Mar 22, 2010 3:43 AM CDT reply actions  

Couldn't agree more

but it took me 1,800 words to say what you just did in two sentences. Hmmmm …. gotta work on those communication skills :-)

by One.Cool.Customer on Mar 22, 2010 4:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

Where in Germany do you live? I live in the Kaiserslautern area.

by bval77 on Mar 22, 2010 3:48 AM CDT reply actions  

Frankfurt, so pretty close by. One of these days we’ll need to organize a Cowboys game party (when the kickoff ist at 1.00 pm in the states)

by One.Cool.Customer on Mar 22, 2010 4:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

Just out of curiousity...

How do you get games in Germany? Is there some kind of sports package you can get via cable or satellite?

by doomsdayreturns on Mar 22, 2010 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes and no

There’s a cable package that has the ‘ESPN America’ channel which shows two games on Sunday and MNF, but more often than not they don’t have the Cowboys. I usually just watch on an internet feed.

by One.Cool.Customer on Mar 22, 2010 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

They have the internet there?

Does Al Gore know this??

FREE THE OGLETREE!!!

by dunkman on Mar 22, 2010 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Great validation OCC.

Having never been a Romo basher, I really knew all of this. I can also tell you that as the end of the half nears, or the end of the game nears, Romo becomes even better. His only real weakness is the occasional stinker, such as the first Giants game last season, (which was replayed on NFL Network yesterday.) His last int was just atrocious. Also, the Giants had all the luckiest plays of the season against us. Over and over balls bounced into their hands in the most amazing ways. Anyway, back to the point of the story. If you consider how Romo has been handicapped by Williams over the last two seasons, those stats are even more amazing. We got snookered by Detroit in that trade, and we’re playing with one hand tied behind our back.

When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather -- not screaming like the passengers in his car.

by White Wolf on Mar 22, 2010 6:46 AM CDT reply actions  

While I agree that Williams didn't play up to his rep

I think with a better O-line, this team could have played around his lack of production.

FREE THE OGLETREE!!!

by dunkman on Mar 22, 2010 7:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed, but the O-line is a different issue.

My point is simple: Why would we choose to play around William’s production? Why handicap ourselves with a non-productive position, especially one that can bring so many returns? How many balls have to clank off of William’s hands, and how many blown routes have to be run before we pull the plug? He’s had a year and a half to get his game in order. If this continues for the first few games into next season, he should be benched or preferably released.

When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather -- not screaming like the passengers in his car.

by White Wolf on Mar 22, 2010 8:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

Actually,

Roy scored the second most TDs (7) on the team last year. On a team where scoring red zone TDs is a problem, he did bring some positives to the offense. He surely has not played up to his contract but with the current state of the running game, he does present some value. He does need to improve his overall play.

by jevans1729 on Mar 22, 2010 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes he did, but...

but he had 10% of the balls thrown his way clank off of his hands. 10%! Did you know that Jevans? Another 10% of the balls thrown his way he blew the route. He blew the freakin’ route. Give me a break. That doesn’t even count the number of times the ball wasn’t thrown his way because he wasn’t where he was supposed to be. Not to mention 2 of Romo’s more ridiculous interceptions last year were on balls Roy blew the route. You think that’s really helping your team?

Yes, he had 7 TDs, but it was deja vu watching the Cowboys force the ball into him. It was TO 2.0. Force the ball to someone you HAVE to include who isn’t performing and watch your opportunities wane. He caught a whopping 44% of the balls thrown his way. Compare that to say, Austin, who caught 66% of the balls thrown his way.

I cannot, for the life of me, see how people defend a guy whose making 8 million a year to be a good blocker. You want to win a Super Bowl? You have to have two guys on the outside who can actually catch the ball.

When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather -- not screaming like the passengers in his car.

by White Wolf on Mar 22, 2010 10:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh

I know exactly how many balls Roy didn’t catch etc. I believe I said the man didn’t play up to his contract and that he needed to improve. My problem with the whole Roy Williams analysis as expressed by many on this site is three fold. First he missed too many passes, route running etc, second was the draft picks we used to get him and third was his contract. I just feel looking at the situation objectively that #s 2 and 3 cannot be blamed on Roy Williams. Those two items were on Jerry Jones. You can’t get angry at a guy for trying to get as much money as he can. We all do it.

As for #1, I will be the first to admit the man did not play well. But when you look a little deeper into the man’s history, I found some interesting things. For example, you mentioned he caught 44% of the balls targeted to him. In 2006 he caught 52% with 157 targets and in 2007 he caught 57% with 112 targets. Now just looking at the pure numbers, one could speculate that he would improve his percentages with Romo throwing to him because Romo is better than Kitna. Obviously, that didn’t happen. So the question that begs to be asked is why not? “The guy just sucks” is just a little too simplistic for me. It also presupposes that every ball thrown to him was perfectly catchable (I know for a fact that is not true) and that every miscommunication was totally Roy’s fault.

Roy is not ever going to be a high percentage catch guy. Neither is Owens or Roddy White. But he can be productive and score points for the team if he improves his play and is utilized properly. Those TWO things are necessary to get the maximum potential out of the guy.

by jevans1729 on Mar 23, 2010 7:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

So long as #9 is under center for the Cowboys

We will always have one of the best passing games in football, the stats don’t lie.

In Romo we Trust

by Terry on Mar 22, 2010 7:55 AM CDT reply actions  

Agreed

And these stats pass the “eyes test”. Unlike the KC Joyner stats explaining that Jacques Reeves was a great corner and that Julius Jones was a great running back.

by JimmyJohnson on Mar 22, 2010 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Stevie Wonder...

saw this comment coming.

John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 22, 2010 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Gotta Love the Kid.

I was just at Romo’s high school Sat. night and they have a really cool display in the cafeteria with Romo’s autographed high school, College and pro jerseys with a pic for each. Cool stuff and when I pointed it out to my daughter she said, “You mean Romo went to school here?” Had it not been my 9 year old daughter I probably would have slapper her upside the head.

There’s also a fantastic hand painted picture of Romo dropping back in the pocket hanging in the AD’s office. I’d pay some money for that but it’s a one of a kind and not for sale.

Anyway, thought I’d share just for the hell of it. I still can’t understand why there are so many Romo bashers. He’s done nothing but win consistently and rewrite the record books as he’s doing it. I’ll bet those same naysayers would trade their own mother if they could get a first round pick. (mother-in-law I could understand)

by Jaymanburlington on Mar 22, 2010 9:46 AM CDT reply actions  

I see you haven't changed your name

to the more appropriate McHater9.

In Romo we Trust

by Terry on Mar 22, 2010 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

LOL

egggselent … couldn’t have said it better myself

Doomsday returns... Wade Phillips style.

by DalaiLuke on Mar 22, 2010 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

sorry Terry....

i had to crash the Romo love-in….it was making me ill

by McLovin9 on Mar 22, 2010 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

Some people never learn.

Romo is a top QB in the NFL, it’s not that hard grasp. I think you know it, but love to stir the pot. There’s one in every crowd.

by DIRE WOLF on Mar 22, 2010 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

I can't comprehend how a Cowboys fan can't be a huge Romo fan

  He’s the single biggest reason why we’re a legit playoff caliber team capable of winning it all. How fans can’t see that makes no sense to me at all.

In Romo we Trust

by Terry on Mar 22, 2010 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Mc 9

Is an Eagle Fan.

He just hangs out around here time to time.

by Travlr on Mar 22, 2010 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

A f---ing troll !!!!

I guess it’s better to be a troll then just plain stupid? Or maybe he’s both.

by DIRE WOLF on Mar 22, 2010 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

dude - we spanked the Eagles 3 times this year....

what better time to join BGN and give them some of their own medicine….LOL

by McLovin9 on Mar 22, 2010 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

"we"

The guy who just posted a picture of “our” QB in his worst on the field moment.

Ummm I don’t think your a we.

John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 22, 2010 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don’t think that being an unapologetic homer in regards to one player is a requirement for being a fan of the team. I think that Romo made great strides last year, but let’s face it, he’s still no Steve Young, Tom Brady, Kurt Warner, or Peyton Manning until he leads his team to the success that all of them did. Compare him to guys like Phillip Rivers and Aaron Rodgers, and they have pretty similar numbers and success thus far. What Romo has done so far is impressive, but he still has some things to accomplish before he is an all time great.

by Baked Potato Soup on Mar 22, 2010 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yep, SB rings are the main stat.

I don’t think anyone would say Romo is as good as Troy or Roger yet, no matter what the stats are. Except maybe Terry.

by DIRE WOLF on Mar 22, 2010 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

No no no...

I don’t think so either.

I’m not an unapolgetic homer, but I also don’t think running down the QB of your team that has been the best QB they’ve had since Aikman is kind of silly.

I mean certainly something that happened 4 years ago, why bring it up?

Being critical and posting a pic of that is a little bit different IMO.

John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 22, 2010 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

...fix that...

I also DO think that running down the QB of your team that has been the best QB since Aikman is kind of silly.

John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 22, 2010 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

+9

FREE THE OGLETREE!!!

by dunkman on Mar 22, 2010 7:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

To be a HOF'r, yes

but those guys didn’t get rings on their own. OK, maybe Manning and Brady. Romo is playing well enough to win a championship. The question now is whether the rest of the team is…

FREE THE OGLETREE!!!

by dunkman on Mar 22, 2010 7:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Is he?

Because he hasn’t won one. When the rest of his team was struggling in MN, he didn’t exactly put them on his back. I think he has the ability to win one, the desire, and the drive, but until he wins a championship, he is not a championship QB. Saying that he is except for the rest of the team bringing him down is pretty unfair and untrue, in my opinion. They came up short last year, and he was a part of it.

by Baked Potato Soup on Mar 23, 2010 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is a stretch Tater

First, by making the bar “championship QB” of course the only way to be one is to win one. So I’m not sure what that adds to any discussion. I am only saying that Romo is an outstanding QB. Dan The Man Marino was also not a championship QB. Oh well.

Second, I’d defy you to find ANY QB in football who could have made chicken salad out of the chicken sh** his line served up. Sure he was a part of it in that he suited up with the team and rode in on the team bus, but that failure wasn’t his doing.

FREE THE OGLETREE!!!

by dunkman on Mar 23, 2010 8:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

You set the bar at championship.

I just don’t agree with saying that one guy is playing at a championship level when he hasn’t ever won a championship. Especially when it’s implied that the rest of the team is the only thing holding him back. I’m not saying that Romo isn’t a top 5 to 10 QB in the NFL, but comparing his regular season stats to Super Bowl winners who all have at least twice as many years as a starter in this league is doing them and him a disservice.

His 2 contemporaries that have the most similar career arc, Rivers and Rodgers, have better numbers than him. Another guy with a similar career is Matt Schaub and his numbers are in the same range. I’m not saying any of those guys are clearly better than Romo, but the case could be made. The question is which one leads his team to the next level.

And your absolutely right that Marino was not a championship QB. You’ll get no argument from me on that one.

by Baked Potato Soup on Mar 24, 2010 7:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

Despite what you may think

QBs can’t put their teams on their back when their OL is not functioning. No qb in the history of the league ever did that and none ever will.

In Romo we Trust

by Terry on Mar 24, 2010 7:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Then shouldn’t we give them all of the credit when he plays well, since they get all the blame when he plays poorly? Are we saying that Romo is merely a function of the line?

by Baked Potato Soup on Mar 24, 2010 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

all qbs are a fucntion of their OLs

to a certain extent, if they don’t give the qb protection, the qb simply can’t make the plays and throws he needs to move the offense.

In Romo we Trust

by Terry on Mar 24, 2010 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

Manning, in fact, didn't play well enough ON HIS OWN....

In those particular playoffs. Now, if you want to use a certain circular logic to say crummy Colts defenses handicapped Manning for much of his career so it was only fitting that his defense carried him through some bad playoff games when he finally did get his ring, fair enough.

by MadMick on Mar 24, 2010 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

If I wasnt at work

I’d pot a pic of Mcnabb throwing up in the superbowl and insert a witty remark with it, but you guys get the jist.

You aint been around in awhile, maybe you haven't heard........I don't shine shoes no more

by markdamack on Mar 22, 2010 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

And this was just a regular ol game

I think it’s where Chunky Soup really comes from…

FREE THE OGLETREE!!!

by dunkman on Mar 22, 2010 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nice post OCC

Of the top 5, Romo is the only one without a bling.

Can you put their playoff passer ratings up as well for comparison’s sake?

given that we broke the playoff jinx last season, maybe this is the year we break the SB one?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 22, 2010 12:19 PM CDT reply actions  

Here ya go

For the five QBs mentioned in the CHHF quote above, this is their career post season passer rating (and W/L record)

Kurt Warner…….102.8 (9-4)
Peyton Manning…87.6 (9-9)
Steve Young……..85.8 (12-8)
Tom Brady……….85.5 (14-4)
Tony Romo………80.8 (1-3)

by One.Cool.Customer on Mar 22, 2010 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Every time you look at Warner's accomplishments versus his contemporaries

You have to be amazed.

I didn’t think he was a HOF’er before, but I’ve come around…

To think he was a Santonio Holmes mircle away from winning a bling for two different franchises…wow.

OCC, how does Aikman compare?

"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."

- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

by 5Blings on Mar 22, 2010 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Aikman wasn't a stats qb

He had the talent and ability to put up those numbers, but when you have the luxury of handing off to the greatest RB of all time 25 times a game, the passing game is needed as much to win.

Regarding Warner, I always thought he was HOF material after I read stat which said he had passed for over 300 yards in 45% of all the games he started, now that is an incredible accomplishment.

In Romo we Trust

by Terry on Mar 22, 2010 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

it's because they played on great teams

actually two of the greatest of all time. Aikman and Montana didn’t earn those rings on their own, they had a lot of help.

In Romo we Trust

by Terry on Mar 23, 2010 7:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Montana actually put up some pretty gaudy TD pass totals.

Certainly gaudier than Aikman’s one season of topping twenty-plus TD passes.

by MadMick on Mar 24, 2010 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

Warner is my favorite non cowboy player this decade.

I hate to agree with Collin Cowherd, but to me Kurt Warner is what the hall of fame should be about.

If Joe Namath is a hall of famer, Warner should be.

John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 22, 2010 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Aikman

he’s up there: 88.3 (11-5).

Staubach: 76.0 (12-7)

by One.Cool.Customer on Mar 22, 2010 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree on Warner

is it that he’s too low-key and maybe people tend to overlook him?

FREE THE OGLETREE!!!

by dunkman on Mar 22, 2010 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

maybe because he was an undrafted free agent

Something tells me if Romo goes on to earn the same kind of post season success or better, he will still get overlooked as well.

In Romo we Trust

by Terry on Mar 23, 2010 7:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think it's because of that.

I think it’s because Warner has a weird career.

He has about a 5 year gap in his career where he was either a backup or wasn’t playing that well.

Between 2001 and 2007, the most yards he threw for was just over 2000.

Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 23, 2010 8:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

You meant '02 and '06.

27 TD passes to 47 turnovers in 31 starts.

When I think of Warner I think of him as the ultimate high risk/high reward QB. Even in his prime commandeering the greatest show on turf, Warner had a hefty 63 turnovers in 43 games. Of course, 98 TD passes can make you forget all those turnovers in a hurry. Which is why I’m not convinced learning all Warner’s tricks is going to help Leinart that much. There’s no way Leinart can turn the ball over as much as Warner did and still be able to cancel out those turnovers with all the positive plays Warner made.

by MadMick on Mar 24, 2010 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

if Romo goes on to earn the same kind of post season success

I thought it was teams that have post season success, not individual players

Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey

by Seanrude on Mar 24, 2010 7:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

it will be the teams that have post season success

but unfortunately most people don’t see it that way when it comes to qbs.

In Romo we Trust

by Terry on Mar 24, 2010 7:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

?

i know you went throught alot of trouble doing all this research but i really don’t think it tells us anything we don’t already know. i don’t understand the need for all this epv stuff. it’s overkill, imo.

it's called a satchel and indiana jones wears one.

by maxdout on Mar 22, 2010 4:18 PM CDT reply actions  

Way to minimize a huge amount of work for the love of the game

You usually post a lot better than this, Maxdout….

FREE THE OGLETREE!!!

by dunkman on Mar 22, 2010 7:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, it's what a lot of us

think we know, based on our subjective eyeball tests-
but it puts some solid, objective, stats behind it.

I’ve been a long-time complainer about the shotgun, for instance, and enjoyed some info backing up some of what I thought I knew….

Everyone’s allowed an opinion, this isn’t for everyone-personally I finally commented on that
“Fish” dude’s posts, I found them silly in this forum-but others liked them.
Oh well.

Pessimists say the cup is half-empty, while optimists say it's half-full. Well, isn't it both? Realist Larry, 2009

by Realist Larry on Mar 22, 2010 7:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

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