Sunday Poll: Starting at Running Back for Your 2010 Dallas Cowboys...
Assuming the backfield names remain the same for the Cowboys RBs, who do you prefer the team starts in 2010?
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Felix!
With Choice as his back-up! Barber should be reserved as the 3rd down back or the “power-back” when he’s needed (if he can still fill that role. He was having trouble with it last year but so was the O-line…)
+2
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Mar 21, 2010 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions
MB3 is a 8 mil dollar a year 3rd RB now....amazing..
Felix should be the starter without question.
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
I think that's a good representation of Dallas's depth at RB too.
I don’t think MB III is as powerful as he used to be, but there are people on here acting like he is garbage.
He had a 4.4 average yards per carry last year.
I think the biggest issue with him is his contract and his nagging injuries.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 21, 2010 8:26 PM CDT up reply actions
I think next year we will see what direction they may go..
meaning after 2010 MB3 could be traded or cut. Im not sure Jerry is going to continue paying MB3 a huge contract to be a 3rd down RB. I havent see his contract, but Im sure its going to skyrocket even further.
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
This.
I can’t believe almost 400 people got this wrong so far. It should be unanimous.
Ready for some baseball.
by TXHC on Mar 21, 2010 8:11 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I cant believe that even one person
thinks there is a wrong answer.
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Mar 21, 2010 8:13 PM CDT up reply actions
+1
Yeah it’s an opinion based poll.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 21, 2010 8:18 PM CDT up reply actions
I'll tell you one thing ... Grizz and the rest of BTB aren't complaining about 1700 votes :)
The percentages say it all … you’re never going to convince everyone (how can your choice be Choice over the BTB pet Cat Felix ?)
Doomsday returns... Wade Phillips style.
I picked Felix.
Pitching coach Mike Maddux on Darren Oliver’s 0.00 ERA this spring:
"Economical work. He ain’t getting paid by the hour."
Felix should be the feature back
with Barber reverting back to his “closer” role. Let the defense get worn down and let a healthy Barber go back to his punishing ways. Then we also have to sprinkle in some Tashard because he can do it all. It’s certainly a great problem to have with 3 really good rbs.
Id love to see what we can get for MB3
The kids are more than capable & we’ve had success drafting RBs in the middle rounds..
Nothing for MB3; He has been injured the last two seasons and has a huge contract
Choice would be good trade bait if the Cowboys are so inclined
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
I voted Tash.
Felix is great to the outside, but I think Tash is better between the tackles. Barber has to get healthy and I don’t think he was most of last year. He would be the back to carry the load in the second half if he gets back to his old form. No matter who starts, all should get their share of plays. OCC’s charts show that all are effective.
I'm a big fan of Marion but I think it's time to get some value for him while we can.
Felix and Choice have proven their worth. It’s a tough call who to give the bulk of the work between Choice and Felix but I’d probably give the edge to Felix because of his extra gear. I think Choice finds more yards in tight situations though. Hrmm
Let the chips fall where they may
yeah we're not getting value for him
and his contract…
we just need to manage his carries to extend his career, which shouldn’t be hard with 2 other quality backs
Exactly
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Mar 21, 2010 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions
I heard a rumor the O-line should block sometimes.
Don’t ya just hate those vicious rumors. Guess we don’t need them with the best blocking WR in the league.
When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather -- not screaming like the passengers in his car.
If you think about it.
We have seen all three backs start successfully for the Cowboys. If Barber gets back to his old form, we have three solid backs. If one were to go down with injury we would still have a very good running game. Felix is a home run threat and someone the defense has to account for, but both the others can rip up yardage too. The big question is whether Barber will get back to being Barber.
+1
He just seems too young to have hit a career wall… it’s hard not to think that something was slowing him a bit last year. I voted for Felix, and he’s earned it. But if we can’t get value for him then let’s roll with those dice.
Doomsday returns... Wade Phillips style.
Choice should start
and Jones should get a little under half the carries. Barber…needs to get out of the way of the better players.
play all 3 just...
in a different order.
Start Jones; use Choice as his reliever; move Barbarian back to the closer assuming he’s still got the juice.
"What we've got here is failure to communicate"
Felix should start
I believe that Felix should start and that MB3 should go back to being the 3rd down back. Just look at what Felix did in the last couple of games of the season and the playoff game when they started to give him more touches. I like Choice too, but I do not think he should start. I want him to get some touches but not as the starter. If someone gets injuryed then we have the talent to still have a potent running game.
On pure talent Felix could be the starter. That being said I think Choice should be the starter.
Felix can not withstand the beating of being a full time starter. IMO if we give him more than 15 touches a game he will get hurt. Choice can be a 15 to 20 carry workhorse. MBIII should be cut and a younger power back drafted.
Touches
Choice 15-20
Jones 10 – 15
Rookie power back 5-10
This would keep all of them fresh and really wear down opposing defenses.
What about Blount?
I think he’d look good in our backfield as a 1 cut guy.
Ich bin ein Berliner--JFK
I am really surprised Felix only has 2/3 of the vote.
He definitely earned the spot in my opinion with his performance down the stretch last year. He showed how much better our offense can be with that big play ability and he also showed the ability to handle the workload as the main back in our rotation.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
Personally, I think Choice earned a chance to start
with the way he played at the end of his rookie year. I don’t think people remember that the teams he faced then were among the best defenses that year, and he still ran right through them.
Choice just didn’t get enough of a chance to show off what he could do last year.
Well he got that chance though because the others were injured
but I would agree that I would like to see him get some more chances. I specifically would like to see him and Felix more often around the goal line.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on Mar 21, 2010 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Injuries were the reason he played initially,
but I thought his level of play at that point was such that he should have been looked at as the starter going into last year unless someone took it from him.
Instead he got all of 64 carries over the year. He’s better than that, and he deserves better than that.
my thoughts exactly
if we arent careful choice will be the league leading rusher on someone else team
What the French?! Toast!
I don't know that he'd end up being the league's leading rusher,
but it is decidedly possible. Even ignoring that, I don’t see how anyone can look at it and not see how much better he is than Barber at this point.
It almost makes me cry every time I see someone mention trading Choice. The only way that would be a viable option to me, is if I’m getting a first outright for him. And I don’t think any team would do that. Not for a runningback, not anymore.
I think Choice is better than Barber right now...
but I also think that some people overhype him.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 21, 2010 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions
I'll come outright and say.
I think Choice is the best all around back on the team. Choice’s vision and his cuts are just beautiful. Jones is ridiculously explosive and a very good back. Barber is certainly a solid back, and most teams would be glad to have him. But on this particular team I think he’s standing in the way of better players.
"Starter"
There may be a difference between who is the nominal “starter” meaning basically he is listed atop the depth chart and on the field for the first play of the game, and who is really the feature back. At the end of last season, MB3 was still the starter, but Felix was clearly the feature back. Altho this may have had some to do with MB3’s injuries, clearly things are trending this direction and I expect them to continue to this season.
But to those who say MB3 should just be used in a “closer” role, I disagree. In order to close the game, you have to be winning the game. So you need to use all the tools at your disposal to get into a position to close.
What I think is undervalued about MB3 sometimes is the effect his style has on defenders over the course of a game. I think you actually want to get him in early, assuming he is healthy and close enough to his prior form, because every time he blows up a LB or S that guy is a little more sore and worn out and hesitant for the rest of the game. So even when we get frustrated because he can’t break open the big gainer or his YPC is low compared to the other two, remember that part of the reason Felix is able to break open the big ones is because MB3 has been in there pounding on the defense softening it up for him.
There’s also the effect of defenders needing to adjust to the different styles in terms of the position and angles they take in defending the run, so a Felix run following a couple MB3 runs may be more effective than 3 Felix runs in a row.
so may take on it is this…
Keep Barber as the nominal starter, so he’s atop the depth chart and is in on the first play of the game, and then use him throughout the game, not just as a closer, to help wear down the D, but keep his carries down (10-12 range) to extend his season/career, while mixing in a liberal dose of Felix (15-18 carries) and Choice (5-10 carries) to keep defenses off balance and all the backs fresh.
And actually I wouldn’t mind seeing Choice more toward that 10 carry range to help keep Felix down around 15, to make sure all 3 are still relatively fresh and healthy for the playoffs… and the home superbowl!
by scottmaui on Mar 21, 2010 2:29 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Scott, man
gotta take a knee after that post… Whew.
Great points though. And in fact, I’ll bet that they do something like this – call MBIII the starter, play Felix a lot and get Choice in as much as possible. Same pattern as last season, toward the end.
FREE THE OGLETREE!!!
Aaron, I believe I'm the first to congratulate you on a full article, complete with all these comments ...
that perhaps broke records for time of preparation!
It’s like saying:
The Redskins Suck, Discuss
:)
Doomsday returns... Wade Phillips style.
Not ready to write MBIII off yet
He should have been on IR last year and he has been playing with serious injuries for the last 1 3/4 years. Give him a shot. He was on his way to being the most physical back of all time before he had this bout of injuries.
Most physical back of all time?
Well, that played for the Cowboys? Sure. But he was never Earl Campbell. Also Walter Payton delivered plenty of punishment to would-be tacklers too.
Don't forget Larry Cszonka, Bronco Nagurski, Jim Bown
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
Without a doubt.
I was just naming two guys off the top of my head. Although I’m always fascinated by the topic of how these guys would do against today’s defenders who have peaked as physical specimen compared to the dudes those cats used to truck; dudes who smoked a pack-and-a-half of cigarettes at halftime.
And is physical the same as being a back that has speed and power?
Like Earl Campbell was physical, but he was also a monster.
One of the reasons I do like MBIII so much is that he’s physical but he’s not built like Brandon Jacobs. I think he’s legit tough.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 23, 2010 7:57 AM CDT up reply actions
To me the definition of a physical back
is a back defenders didn’t want to tackle because doing so really was painful, regardless of size. I think backs like Campbell and Motley fit that definition.
In Romo we Trust
Motley outweighed the LBs and DL by 30 to 60lbs
and the DBs by 100lbs. and could outrun most of them. That would be scary.
Imagine a guy who weighed 400 pounds and who could run a 4.4
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
yeah, they're called comic book super heros
Even the most juiced up human could never do that
In Romo we Trust
I was extrapolating Marion Motley to modern day football.
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
i think should be
a rotation of the three backs, more balanced than past season, maybe giving felix jones 45% of carries barber 30% and tashard 25%, well something like that, i mean some more balanced job without taking care who’s the number 1, 2 or 3
Felix should see 15-20 touches a game...
I don’t care who starts.
And by touches I don’t mean carries.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 21, 2010 4:54 PM CDT reply actions
Touches not starts
Barber can’t be traded, Choice shouldn’t be traded and Felix will not be even considered for a trade. So we got all three, let’s make sure first of all that Felix gets his 15-20 touches. Then let Choice rotate with him and give Barber the short yardage and closer role.
this debate is simple
they all should play. Felix should start, if you watched the last few games, it’s really a no brainer. I’m actually shocked people would rather see TC start over felix, given what felix can bring to this offense. That’s not to say TC shouldn’t play, I think he is good in the razorback package and good for maybe 5 – 8 carries a game depending on the health of barber and the situation. Felix should touch the ball as many times as the other two back combined over the course of the game. He’s not a small player 6-0 200+, he can carry a solid load, and if he gets hurt, like every other running back usually does, then TC and barber will play more.
all three should play, and they will, obviously JG thinks Barber is a more complete back than choice, and that’s why he sees the field more and probably will continue to do so, but Felix should start, and barber n choice can split the rest.
Texas Stadium has a hole in the roof so God can watch his favorite team play football.
Agree
Felix should be the starter (get the most carries), and it’s a given that this is the plan for 2010.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Mar 21, 2010 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Great Post
It seems that this is one area that everyone mostly agrees on. Of course MontecitoTex hasn’t appeared yet.
What do we do with Barber is the only thing there is disagreement on.We can’t trade him if no one wants him.
I have a feeling that there is another back like Choice that we pick up late.
Spiller is the only back mentioned in the upper part of the first and Best is mentioned as a possible pick later in the first round.that means that there about 14 serviceable backs left in the draft and that doesn’t include some sleepers.
If a back is the best available in the later rounds why not draft him?Looks like we need a FB anyway.
by TCB Orange Dino on Mar 21, 2010 5:24 PM CDT reply actions
I love felix but
I think choice is the MAN. I hope by the time hes a free agent cowboys realized hes their main man. He looks like that ancient creature called a featured back. Felix of course can stay should stay will stay. Red can find ways to keep them both happy.
When is choices contract up 2013? Assuming they play ’11
What the French?! Toast!
these arguments, imo, are pointless
the real topic of discussion should be whether Garrett has the ability to utilize the very different skillsets each of these runners posess, at the right moments. can he put felix in, have the defense adjust to the personnel, and still make a playcall that uses his strengths and can surprise the defense? Can he call the right personnel and play on the goal line?
Those are the things I questioned last season, not any single runners ability to do the job when called upon.
just my two cents. :)
2009 BTB Part Deux Fantasy League Champion. 'Kill Everybody 13-2'. KDP knows football.
It sounds like you think Garrett doesn't know what he's doing,
but our rushing attack was strong most times last year.
7th overall in rushing.
2nd overall in yards per rush.
7th in rushing indicates a good rushing attack and the 2nd overall in yards per rush indicates it was very effectively used.
Felix has averaged a incredible 6.5 yards per carry his first two seasons and I definitely think Garrett has had a big hand in helping that. On quite a few of Jones’ big runs he was untouched because the play call (decoy, delay, pitch) fooled the defense and let Felix get to the outside unhindered where he can then do the rest.
+1
Our rushing attack was very good in general last year, criticism of Garrett in that respect is seemingly off the mark.
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Mar 21, 2010 6:50 PM CDT up reply actions
not what I was saying
in general, the rushing attack was very powerful. But there were crucial times, when the running game faltered. Those are the areas when playcalling matters.
It goes beyond just numbers to me. I’m not saying that all plays don’t matter, obviously a big breakout is just as impactful. But all those goal line runs that didn’t work is a problem and to act like it isn’t is shortsighted.
2009 BTB Part Deux Fantasy League Champion. 'Kill Everybody 13-2'. KDP knows football.
I never said they weren't a problem,
but rather than blame the guy standing on the sideline I’ll put the majority of the blame on the guys on the field. The blocking upfront was really poor in several games this year and on lot of those goal line runs defenders were knifing through our blockers before our backs could do much of anything. And on times when they didn’t I saw more than once Barber pitter-patter with his feet instead of just driving forward full speed.
A goal line run is a goal line run. How tricky can it get? You line up, man up, and try to drive them back a yard or two and they try and stop you. That’s it. Our blockers did poorly at this. That’s why Garrett does things like Shotgun draw from the 4 yard line because he’s hoping the deception will give his blockers an edge because, as most can clearly see, they need it.
Whenever Garrett has plenty of field to operate the running game goes great because the play calls often fool the defense giving his players a distinct advantage. When the field shortens up, especially in goal line one’s and two’s the possibilities for trickery in the running game is greatly reduced and it often becomes a man on man blocking situation. As it does for every team in the league. This is where our team struggles in the running game. These things are a sure sign that your blocking is the problem.
And that’s why Jerry Jones has said about three times now that upgrading the Offensive Line is priority number one this offseason.
so what you're saying is
the coordinator bears no responsibility to knowing his personnel’s shortcomings and calling plays that avoid them and play to their strengths? That, because of the personnel of this team, there was no chance to score on those running plays?
But knowing that, the fact that we didn’t call successful passing plays?
There were no plays in the playbook, after offseason and training camp, and basically 3 full years of having the same offensive line, that they can call money plays?
that has nothing to do with the playcalling? really?
2009 BTB Part Deux Fantasy League Champion. 'Kill Everybody 13-2'. KDP knows football.
and don't get me wrong
I know the offensive line is in need of an upgrade-
but to act as if Garrett’s playcalling is world class, and the onus falls strictly on the players and none on the playcalling, is short sighted.
2009 BTB Part Deux Fantasy League Champion. 'Kill Everybody 13-2'. KDP knows football.
No, that's not what I'm saying at all.
Your whole post is a straw man argument.
So unless you want to make a proper response I’m done with this.
you should be done with this
I made a post saying an argument about which of the three backs should start is pointless, that if Garrett made good play calls at certain crucial points of a game it makes no difference who starts. You took it to the extreme that I was saying Garrett simply doesn’t know what he’s doing and backed it up with stats that had nothing to do with my point.
Pot, meet kettle.
2009 BTB Part Deux Fantasy League Champion. 'Kill Everybody 13-2'. KDP knows football.
The stats had plenty to do with your point.
You just summarized your own first point; "if Garrett made good play calls at certain crucial points of a game". In response to that idea I commented that the 7th best rushing attack in the league and 2nd best in yards per run seems to evidence to me like he had many more good play calls than bad.
On the other hand, your entire "so what you’re saying is" post is full of ridiculous comments that you pretend I said.
I didn't even have to read both of your posts and I know what you're saying.
At the end of the day, players have to make plays. Period.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 22, 2010 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions
so let me get this straight...
this entire season, and seasons past, there weren’t multiple times when you guys questioned the playcall that was made?
2009 BTB Part Deux Fantasy League Champion. 'Kill Everybody 13-2'. KDP knows football.
"You guys"
I have questioned a play call now and then, but very rarely do I get on a Jason Garrett sucks tirade.
If your players don’t execute than no playcall will bail you out.
At some point, you have to be able to get 1 yard by running it up the middle.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 22, 2010 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions
i'm not on a tirade about Garretts playcalling
i defend Garrett often against those that go on a tirade.
but I do not think he is so annointed that his abilities can’t be questioned the same way the players are.
it is my opinion that everyone’s body of work is important, but more important is how you act when it is all on the line. In some instances, with it all on the line, I’ve had issues with Garrett’s playcalling.
That’s all I’ve said.
I agree that at some point you have to be able to get 1 yard running up the middle. But to see that it doesn’t work, then not have a plan B and C on third and fourth downs… that’s a problem if you want to be a SuperBowl team.
I just believe that the coaches matter as much as the players. Why can some teams with inferior talent win? Coaching. Why can some teams with inferior coaching win? Talent. It goes both ways and I’ll never understand why alot of people feel the need to put it all on one side of the equation.
2009 BTB Part Deux Fantasy League Champion. 'Kill Everybody 13-2'. KDP knows football.
I wasn't criticizing you...
Just saying I know what Luke is saying.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 22, 2010 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions
Do you expect perfection?
There’s rarely ever been a single game I’ve ever watched (involving any team) that I haven’t questioned some decision by an offensive or defensive coordinator, or by a head coach or by a QB, RB etc, etc. They all make mistakes and it’s easy to question from where we sit. To me Garrett makes many more good calls than bad calls hence the good stats offensively I cited. Read the Maple Street Press article K.C. Joyner did on Garrett’s inventive running plays.
15 touches for Felix 10-12 for Choice
And Barber should get whatever’s left in the 4th and garbage time.
by Cowboysaficionado on Mar 21, 2010 6:52 PM CDT reply actions
10-12
for Choice AND Barber… depending on situation, don’t forget MBII ave. 4.4 which is pretty solid. also barber is the best blocking rb on our team, and probably has the best hands as well, meaning he will be in the game more than choice.
so, although many want to see more of TC, barber is more well-rounded and will probably play more than TC will
Texas Stadium has a hole in the roof so God can watch his favorite team play football.
I don't know that there is as much a difference between Barber and Choice's blocking than some make it out to be.
Don’t forget that Choice was in the backfield for a lot of third downs last year. Barber is better, but Choice is not a liability when it comes to blocking.
Anyone want to guess Barber's 40 time coming out and Felix Jones' 40 time?
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Mar 21, 2010 7:47 PM CDT reply actions
They were right about the same weren't they?
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on Mar 21, 2010 7:48 PM CDT up reply actions
that's correct, they were the same.
the mention it because that actually suprised me quite a bit. I always assumed that because of Barber’s scuttling sandcrab running style that he was slow. However, in the process of comparing potential RB picks (e.g. Gerhard, Ben Tate, Montario Hardesty) to prior players I looked up Barbers 40. His combo of size and speed is actually quite impressive. That made me realize that I might have some false preconceptions about Barber and maybe I needed to re-examine my assumptions.
So while I’d be happy to see Felix start, I can also understand why the Dallas coaches value Barber so highly. He’s strong enough to break tackles and he’s got the speed to break long runs, he catches the ball well, and he’s an incredible pass blocker.
p.s. In regards to RBs, there is a correlation between 40 times and success in the NFL. The correlation is even better if you adjust the 40 time for the RB’s weight. See link.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Mar 21, 2010 8:58 PM CDT up reply actions
40 times can sometimes be misleading.
Felix has shown himself a faster back than his combine 4.47 forty. He showed it in college and he’s showed it in the NFL. Maybe he just had an average run that day, we are talking tenths (or hundredths) of seconds here.
As an example, the article you showed cited Brain Westbrooks combine time of 4.57. Anyone who’s seen him play can tell he was much faster than that. They also say at other times he was timed at 4.37. CB Joe Haden ran 4.52 at the combine and just ran a 4.42 at his pro day. Sometimes you can just have a bad run.
Marion probably had close to his best time ever at the combine. It’s obvious, especially the last two years he wouldn’t time that now. There’s been several runs the last few years when he’s gotten a big hole and he gets run down easy enough. Perhaps injuries made it appear worse than it is but he certainly doesn’t look a threat to go the distance at all. Where as Felix looks like a threat to go the distance every time he touches the ball.
We have a different approach
I agree that Felix looks faster. Felix has broken more long runs and doesn’t get caught from behind. Maybe he is faster than 4.49.
However, I endevour not to rely on my ‘eye’ only in making assessments. Mainly because I know how often the ‘eye’ alone leads to error. Hence, I have a preference for objective facts that are independent of my subjective opinion (e.g. a measured 40 time).
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Mar 22, 2010 6:59 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm not saying just rely on your eyes,
what I’m saying is you shouldn’t rely simply on one single timed run when assessing a players speed.
The examples I gave weren’t just ‘eye ball’ opinions. Joe Haden ran a 4.52 and then a few weeks later a 4.42 and a 4.39. That’s the point I’m making, I agree that 40 times are useful but one time is not an absolute.
The other factors that support the eyeball test in this case
include statements from coaches that Felix has a unitque ability to stay at or close to full speed while cutting. In a given run that has the net effect of being faster. Explosiveness only gets measured once in the 40 – at the start.
FREE THE OGLETREE!!!
You have to consider what a 40 time actually is.
A timed run in t-shirt and shorts out of a sprinter’s stance. Besides, there’s no way to measure what kind of 2nd gear a guy has when he’s actually being pursued. Obviously, it’s an important measurable but it can be highly misleading.
Then that just goes to show how little correlation there is between 40 times and breakaway speed.
It’s been 615 carries since Barber’s last rush of 40 yards. And his two carries of 40 yards were late in games with double digit leads against a Miami team that called a zero blitz (no second line of defense at all) and a whipped apathetic Bears defense.
good point
40’s don’t really matter. Barbers 40 was 4.49 ish, pretty similar to Felix’s 40 time, yet they don’t look even close. I think that would be a good point on the Brandon Spikes post.
One of the reasons 40 times are overvalued.
Not saying there isn’t value to them, but they are still overvalued.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 21, 2010 8:20 PM CDT up reply actions
I think few people have the right idea when it comes to 40 times.
Just as many people seem to want to completely dismiss them as want to take them as the ultimate in judging a player’s speed.
In my mind it is another data point. You want to collect as much data as you can without putting too much emphasis on anything.
That is my feeling. Too many people want to dismiss them completely.
the correlation is .45 for RB. That means it explains 45% of the variation over a waiver wire back. I see 40 times moving RB up or down maybe ten spots for 1st round picks and a round or two (e.g. from 3rd round to 2nd round for really good 40 times) in later rounds. That seems like it’s valued just about right for a statistic that explains about 1/2 of the variation.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Mar 22, 2010 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Do you have any evidence that 40 times are overvalued?
Do you test your hypothesis against the evidence before offering them as fact?
I’ve actually been thinking of tracking 40 time performance to see if 40 times actually are overvalued. The experiment would be like this. We catorgize players who improved their draft status through a good 40 time and those that were hurt by a bad 40.
I’d catorgize the following players as having benefited (i.e. moved up in the draft) from 40 times: Taylor Mays, Toby Gerhard, Ben Tate, Montario Hardesty, and Bruce Campbell. I wouldn’t include Jacoby Ford, CJ Spiller, Jahvid Best, and Everson Griffen because they performed as expected and their draft position was unchanged.
I’d catorgize the follow players as hurt by a bad 40 time: Dexter McCluster and Brandon Spikes.
Then we watch whether they outperform or underperform their actual draft position.
BTW, Chris Johnson would be in the first group. Going of his weight and 40 time, one would have move up Marion Barber’s draft position. Are you really confident it’s “overvalued”?
http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/blog?name=schefter_adam&id=4940724
“Many projected Johnson as a second- or third-round pick. Then he arrived in Indianapolis and ran a 4.24 40-yard dash (video of it here), which tied the mark that Eastern Kentucky wide receiver Rondel Melendez set in 1999, the first year the combine used electronic timers. Johnson shot up the draft board as fast as he ran, and wound up becoming the Tennessee Titans’ first-round pick.”
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Mar 22, 2010 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Nope....
just my opinion.
Not really going to get into this anymore, because you’ll just continue posting ESPN,NFL,etc. etc. etc. links, look up all kinds of stats and all that stuff.
I don’t care.
I guess I should have wrote I THINK that SOME teams, have the TENDENCY to overvalue 40 times.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 22, 2010 10:11 PM CDT up reply actions
BTW
When you post stuff in quotes there is this nice little button above your box that you can click that puts it in this nice little box.
Like this
It makes it easier to read, and you probably would get more responses. Happy early Easter.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 22, 2010 10:12 PM CDT up reply actions
I think jones is the more explosive back....
but i think barber should be the starter because he plays hard, can run over defenders, and is always fired up
as well i think jones is a great third down back because of his ability to catch the ball
One time...
3rd and 1. 4th and 1. 3 running plays goal-to-go against San Diego's 21st ranked run defence...
How many defenders did he run over in 2009?
Barber is worn out. We all love what Barber has done for this team, but that doesn’t mean he should rob Felix and Choice of their chances to contribute equally to the Cowboys’ legacy. And they are the better players in 2010.
by Blue Eyed Devil on Mar 22, 2010 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions
Barber hasn't run over anyone in a looong time
he’s done
Pessimists say the cup is half-empty, while optimists say it's half-full. Well, isn't it both? Realist Larry, 2009
by Realist Larry on Mar 22, 2010 7:35 PM CDT up reply actions
He destroyed Jonathan Vilma in that Saints game.
BTB League Consolation Ladder Champ...thought you knew.
by Aaron Novinger on Mar 23, 2010 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions
In how many carries?
one memorable play?
I couldn’t believe the contract at the time, I was lambasted for criticizing it, but if you looked past his guts (and I do admire the guy) this was easy to see coming.
Now everyone hates the contract.
He’s a walking injury report unless he changes his style.
He thinks he’s John Riggins or Earl Campbell-he’s not. JJ never should have paid him, now they’re stuck.
Pessimists say the cup is half-empty, while optimists say it's half-full. Well, isn't it both? Realist Larry, 2009
by Realist Larry on Mar 24, 2010 1:22 AM CDT up reply actions
Why is this really an issue?
Everyone knew when it happened he was overpaid and why.
Dallas had a roster with only one proven runningback on the roster so they were in trapped situation as far as the contract went.
It was either pay Barber or roll into season with two rookies.
He’s paid too much, but it isn’t really that big of an issue to me.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 24, 2010 6:15 AM CDT up reply actions
I don'tmind the guy being paid, but anyone who thinks another team will take on that contract in a trade is nuts
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
Destroyed him.
BTB League Consolation Ladder Champ...thought you knew.
by Aaron Novinger on Mar 25, 2010 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions
felix
this should have been even more of a landslide
"Drinks are on me if Lewis posts >168IP and an era lower than 3.86." by RangerMad on Jan 20, 2010 12:36 PM PST
Barber
Is done. He doesn’t have the same tenacity or explosion he had in 2006-2007.
I love the guy as much as anyone. But nostaliga doesn’t win football games.
Too much wear and tear, too many campaigns, too many injuries. It’s time for the next generation to have their chance.
Barber, we will always remember you fondly. But it’s time for the Felix Jones and Tashard Choice era to begin.
Nostaliga doesn’t win games.
by Blue Eyed Devil on Mar 22, 2010 12:06 AM CDT reply actions
Barber's best attribute can also be his biggest hindrance.
A running back’s main job is not trucking over or knocking down defenders but carrying the ball as far as he can on every carry. That’s why Choice is getting all this love; when he makes his cut or finds the hole he is very decisive and oh so smooth a runner.
I'm not a hard man to please.
All I want is Felix to get 12-15 carries and 15-18 touches and remain healthy for most of the year. Beyond that, I’m fine with Barber still splitting carries with Felix right down the middle. If it becomes apparent Barber still hasn’t regained his old form by mid-season I’m sure the coaching staff will act according and leapfrog Choice over him on the depth chart. Okay, well, maybe I’m not sure the coaching staff would do that considering how allergic Garrett is to using Choice but we’ll see.
Madmick,
It mightn’t be Garrett that’s holding Choice back. Maybe GM Jerry expresses his desire to see his very expensive RB on the field? We know Jerry’s not shy about having input. Or maybe Wade is happier sticking with the veteran incumbent as it seems to me he likes to do.
Either way I think you’re right. Barber will get several weeks splitting with Felix and if he’s 08-09 Barber and not 06-07 Barbarian then Choice will probably supplant him.
On MB III
Here’s an article that sums up MB III nicely. It’s a year old, but nails it imho.
Barber is among the hardest backs in the league. His bruiser style has endeared him to the Cowboys faithful and NFL fans around the country. […] He is known as leather-tough in short yardage situations, and loves to punish his defenders….maybe too much..
When he breaks through the line he seems intent on finding someone to hit vs. making a cut to open a big gain. We aren’t prepared to conclude he has poor field vision; he very well could have a ton, but he just loves the contact too much. Rookie Felix Jones, on the other hand, runs the same play on the next series but for a 40 yard gain. Fellow rookie Tashard Choice even had his way with defenses in his limited opportunities.
by One.Cool.Customer on Mar 22, 2010 7:09 AM CDT reply actions
I'd like to see Felix start but Tashard get the bulk of the carries, if that makes any sense...
It’s obvious that Jones is explosive and can bounce off tackle and run to the outside just as good as anyone in the game, but as OCC pointed out in a previous post he has a general decline after 10+ runs in a game.
Choice is consistent and should get at least 10 carries a game, because I think out of all the rushing attempts he has in his pro career, he only had one (maybe two) that went for a negative yard. That is my favorite quality about him. He might only get 2 or 3 yards, but he doesn’t lose any.
Barber needs to get cut this offseason. His contract is too big and they can dump him this year without penalty. I expect Jerry to wait a little longer before making that decision, but do the Cowboys really need an $8M 3rd down back? I think they can find one on the 2nd or 3rd day of the draft for a much better price.
I voted for Felix, and think Choice should get more touches, but ...
My theory is this: why not give MBIII another campaign? I simply can’t believe that Barber is already worn out. A season of nagging injuries does not end such a young career. Give the guy another shot before writing him off.
Doomsday returns... Wade Phillips style.
MB AS FB
how about barber at FB Felix at RB and TC as backup man would the D be confused there
He's not big enough
Pessimists say the cup is half-empty, while optimists say it's half-full. Well, isn't it both? Realist Larry, 2009
by Realist Larry on Mar 22, 2010 7:35 PM CDT up reply actions
RW as FB
he can block well and catch a little out of the backfield.
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Mar 22, 2010 11:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Gee, guess what the lead article is at the official site?
what a coincidence
Pessimists say the cup is half-empty, while optimists say it's half-full. Well, isn't it both? Realist Larry, 2009
It's pretty clear they read this blog
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Mar 22, 2010 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions

BTB League Consolation Ladder Champ...thought you knew.
by Aaron Novinger on Mar 23, 2010 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions

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