To reach or not to reach? It's all about the 27th...
A lot has been said about reaching for X or Y player in the 27th pick, about who's the smarter choice and about how if someone falls the decision should be an easy one. I'm posting this for further conversation.
As clear as Crystal.
The time of the 27th pick comes and at the Top of the Cowboys board stands one of this names: Earl Thomas, Mike Iupati or Trent Williams; it isn't going to take much time for Goodell to be asked to walk back up and call the Cowboys selection and it wouldn't be a reach.
Reaching for Spears?
With the 22nd pick in the 2005 Draft the Cowboys selected Marcus Spears. Even the guys that see him as a good enough player to start (stopping the run), would accept that he's indeed a reach, the guys that don't like him want him out of town for a 5th or 6th Round pick... And they like to mention the name of Jared Odrick and how he's no Chubby Checkers...
Looking at them, strictly as College prospects, Spears was clearly the better prospect or the most productive one (19 career sacks to 14.5 and 34.5 TFLs to 25.5), so what tells you that he's going to be much of an improvement over Spears? His lack of experience as a 3-4 End? Or is it just that you want a new face?
I'm not sure that he's an upgrade and no one should, so? Do you want to invest a 1st Round pick on a backup and continue to Reach?
The Spread.
The usual conclusion when we talk about offensive prospects coming from a spread formation is that Receivers and QBs are the ones that were pushed up the most, but what about the OLineman in protection, that open holes for the running game and that makes the Line calls?
Aren't they benefitted too by the short time that it takes for the QB to throw the ball? By the few blitzes that they see? By a simpified scheme of protection changes?
Spread formation also have to go through a detox period of sorts to become a Pro, so? Do you want to Draft an inside backup with the 1st pick?
Supply and demand.
How much of a reach would someone like Nate Allen really be? Everything that I've read and seen makes me think that he's a player very comparable to Delmas and Chung, players that were selected with the 33rd and 34th picks in last year's Draft, which BTW was another poor in talent at the top CB Draft, so is he going to be selected as high as them?
It has everything to do with supply, demand and best player available in a top talent poor Draft at CB but deep, the highly rated Safeties will be selected higher than usual and there're teams that need Safety help in the top 15 (Rams (if they lose Atowge), Tampa, Kansas, Cleveland, Oakland, Seattle, Denver and Giants).
But a Free Safety in the 1st would be a reach if his last name isn't Berry or Thomas.
Depth is important, but...
CB is a lot like RB, the prospects are better prepared for the NFL than anyone else, so getting a 4th stringer readier for the NFL in his 2nd year isn't as important for a CB than what it is for, let's say, a QB.
So, a player like Kyle Wilson is ready to replace Newman or Scandrick? If one of them goes down injured (aka Newman)? I can see that, but he would still be the 4th stringer... Wouldn't a player like Scandrick (5th Round) be a better decision for the 4th string job?
A player like Wilson wouldn't be a reach per se, but his production wouldn't be what we want from a 1st Round pick, people wanted to can Jenkins because his 1st year production didn't match his draft status!
Boom or Bust:
Taking a huge guy like Dan Williams or Terrence Cody carries a risk just as huge as their size, because the guys are such physical specimens with incredible strength and ability that are known for consistency problems that have everything to do with effort and conditioning. Those problems start with their minds.
And that's not it, the guy would be a run stopping NT in Dallas, which means that he would be asked to start and be replaced in pass rush situations... Well... The Cowboys have an All-Pro starting in his position... And an All-Pro DT means that he's better than good stopping the run and pressuring the passer. Do you really want to replace that kind of guy with a high risk performer? Or do you want to move Ratliff to a position that he hasn't played and has said that he doesn't like?
Hat tip to Mr. Coryell.
Two Jason's. Jason Garrett and Jason Witten.
The first Jason is a disciple of the Norv Turner branch, who was a disciple of the Ernie Zampese branch, who was a disciple of the Don Coryell tree. The Air Coryell philosophy is one that likes to use a WR and a TE as the top 2 pass catching weapons coming from a Pro Set (2 WRs, 1 TE, 1 RB and 1 FB/TE/HB). The chances of success rely heavily on the shoulders of such TE, he has to be a good pass catcher but he also has to be a good run blocker because the scheme was mainly designed to be a power running scheme (the Cowboys have failed miserably in this).
The 2nd Jason is an All-Pro TE that's arguably one of the best TEs in the League, if not the best.
They work in a nice combination, Garrett's scheme will have the QB throwing the ball to the TE and Witten's on of the best in the business.
That hurts the production of the 3rd, 4th and 5th receiving options, it's just a matter of how you have to distribute the rest of the balls.
Taking a receiver with the 1st pick (Tate, Benn or Thomas) doesn't mean that he's going to top 1000 yards and it doesn't mean that he's going to start, the Cowboys aren't a team that starts 3 receivers game in game out. His production is going to be limited as long as the team has 2 Jason's and a better number 1 receiver.
A rare steak for me, the bloodier the better!
And lastly, the Cowboys can always Draft one of those guys that aren't considered 1st Round worthy because of how raw they are as prospects in their respective positions, such as the case of Vladimir Ducasse.
Depending on who you ask, Ducasse has the light feet and lateral mobility, when his technique is on, to play the Tackle position and has the pop to be considered a RT prospect, but he's so raw that he's way too inconsistent in his technique and that's why people is all over the map with him. It's just too though, but the Cowboys have more material than any media "scout" and they should know better.
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1 out of 3 ain't good
Iupati is the only one out of the three I’d want to see on the Cowboys. Dez Bryant has primadonna and off the field issues written all over him. As for Mays, I’ll stick with Sensabaugh over a Roy Williams clone. At least Sensabaugh can cover 9 times out of 10.
by lonewolfz28 on Mar 24, 2010 10:46 PM CDT up reply actions
lived in oklahoma for years...
never heard Bryant was a primadonna
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 25, 2010 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions
Dion Sanders
With Dion Sanders as a “mentor”? He may not be one now, but give Dion time to fill his head with selfish garbage.
by lonewolfz28 on Mar 25, 2010 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm assuming you're talking about "Deion" Sanders
That’s alot of assumptions on a guy you probably haven’t even heard speak.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 25, 2010 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Spellcheck Fail
Yup, missed the “e”. As for the assumptions, have you listened to Deion over the years? Humility is not one of his strong suits.LOL His influence has already helped get Dez suspended for a season by the NCAA. Hopefully Dez shakes himself loose from him. Hopefully he keeps his head screwed on straight. I’d truly like to see that happen. I just don’t hold much hope for it happening with Deion talking in his ear, especially once the money starts rolling in and the spotlight comes on full force.
Yet you never bother to explain away Irvin's indiscretions as a 'Cane.
The least of which is trying to instigate an incident with gang members in a Miami nightclub; more or less the same type of situation that led to Darrent Williams’ sad death*. (*Fittingly enough, you’re very sour on trading for Brandon Marshall.)
Of course, I do realize that it was Irvin’s behavior that led Jerry himself to pass on Moss; but since then he’s taken a flier on T.O. so even he’s bent a little for the betterment of the team.
Dez is Out of the Question
He is bust material; way to risky for a one pick . . . did he ever conduct his pro day after cancelling and rescheduling several times? I would be shocked beyond measure if Dallas drafted this guy
Results may very
One player that Deion “mentored” was Hester….and there have not been any open problems there. On the other hand, Deion has his “primetime” finger prints all over Crabtree…
Thank you
I didn’t know about the Hester/Sanders connection. I do remember Hester pouting a bit about only wanting to play receiver. Other than that I haven’t heard too much negative about him in the general press. I don’t follow the Bears too closely. Like I said, I hope it turns out good for Bryant. I’m just not very optimistic about it. If we were going to take a WR, I’d rather see us take someone like Andre Roberts from the Citadel in the 3rd. Not tall, not overly fast but has a knack for getting open and has hands like velcro.
I say a little prayer for you.
If you think most wide receivers aren’t selfish divas. Marvin Harrison never made a peep on the field for the Colts but off the field he was “allegedly” blazing at rival gangstas with a pistol in each hand.
Dez is really getting hammered by people
And really there is no good reason why. The only thing he’s guilty of is lying to an NCAA investigator, who IMO is a jackass. He was asking him about something that was perfectly legal, but he acted like it wasn’t. How hard would it have been for the guy to question Dez and include the disclaimer, " it’s ok if you were at Sander’s house, it’s not a violation of the rules". I just find the entire situation akin to entrapment. The NCAA suspects Deion of being a front man, so to speak, for Eugene Parker, and they have good reason. Bryant unfortunately got caught up in the mess.
As for being a primadonna, he wasn’t perceived that way at OSU. I know it’s common among WR’s for some reason, but so far I never heard that about him. I went to OSU, follow the program, and hear a lot about the teams because I live in Tulsa. I never heard anything bad about the guy, and have never come across anyone who felt that he didn’t get a raw deal from the NCAA.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Mar 25, 2010 6:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Forget the suspension
There are other indicators . . . most recently the screwy pro day issues; will he run? No, tomorrow . . . no, next week, and not here but over there in some forgotten backwater . . . this guy is red flag personified. No thanks.
He's not the only guy whom has ever rescheduled his pro day due to injuries.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 28, 2010 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Moving back the workout is a major red flag?
Like I said, he hasn’t done anything to warrant the amount of criticism he’s getting. It seems like people want to label him as a risk based on anticipation rather than history.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Mar 28, 2010 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions
I like the way you are thinking
But I would rate my top board
Lupati, Thomas, Pouncey, Wilson
Any of the 4 I am happy
Better than "Lupita" which was what people were calling him a few weeks ago
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Haha
I like whoever responded “You better not call him that to his face.”
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on Mar 24, 2010 11:18 PM CDT up reply actions
That was me
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Hmm...
Still love Pouncey, Iupati, Earl Thomas, I am growing onto Kyle Wilson, I think at least he will be a good 3rd corner, maybe he passes up Scandrick and becomes the number 2 guy behind Jenkins after Newman hangs up his cleats. Odrick well.. IMO isn’t needed and DE isn’t a pick that I would take at the first unless there is nothing else of value and no acceptable trades can happen (yes I would rather get an extra 2nd and 3rd than to get Odrick, if they are high picks). Vlad, I do think will become a player but most likely he is a RT, I know he is raw but he hasn’t played football as long as most other prospects as well as from all the reports he is a hard worker and has a passion for the game, which w/ tools and the right attitude typically players make it. i do like Tate but unsure about how much he can provide to us being that he would at best be number 4 receiver w/ Roy still getting a pass as a starting WR, and then he is even further down the receiving option list, so what we could expect is at best maybe 30 catches 300 yards and whatever he can do on returns
i would overall still say Iupati is the best option we could get unless a drop by Dez or ET because of his size and how he could step in next year at least to give us a young talented guard, but next best option which IMO Iupati will be gone would be Pouncey
by nicholas.rodriguez on Mar 23, 2010 6:59 PM CDT reply actions
I agree
I can see the team drafting any of this guys because it isn’t so hard to find a reasonable idea behind any of the picks…
But it’s also easy to see that anyone would be a reach (unless one of the top guys falls, like Iupati or Thomas).
It all depends on how full or empty your glass is on certain players.
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
I would draft any of them
but its hard to rank them as which 1 I would take before each besides ET being the top and Iupati being the second the rest is almost a wash except I think Pouncey has nearly the highest value in terms of position being that there will be a hole there unless we resign Kosier next year then Gurode the year after
by nicholas.rodriguez on Mar 24, 2010 3:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Agreed
As much as I’d love to see Earl Thomas fall to us, I just don’t see it happening. Iupati would be great if he falls to us. Some of the scouts are saying he has the potential to move out to LT eventually. He could replace Kosier in the short term, and possibly move out to LT to replace Adams. That would allow Doug Free to stay at RT where he seemed more comfortable and fits better. And I agree, Pouncey would be nearly as valuable replacing Kosier in the short term and Gurode in the long term if we can’t get Iupati.
by lonewolfz28 on Mar 24, 2010 10:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Good Post
Every year some player that is highly ranked and a match for Dallas just drops such as Randy Moss, Steven Jackson to Percy Harvin and Michael Oher last year (Both any sensible Cowboys fan would trade in a heartbeat for the player that pick was trade for-Roy Williams). It’s really impossible to predict if its going to be Dez Bryant, Earl Thomas, Anthony Davis or someone else this year. With that said, I think Dallas still has to prepare for the worse and be ready to pick through Nate Allen, Kyle Wilson, Golden Tate, and Ducasse all whom don’t make complete sense. If that’s the case my vote is to get ready to trade down w/ Cleveland and hope one of them is still around at top of second.
Just Say No To Davis
Anthony Davis is this year’s Andre Smith…poor conditioning, poor work ethic and no love for the game. Word is he didn’t do so well in some of the interviews during the combine. Serious Boom or Bust potential. That’s something I’d rather not have us deal with in a 1st round pick.
by lonewolfz28 on Mar 24, 2010 10:42 PM CDT up reply actions
If that is true about Davis, then No
too risky to have a player with a lack of work ethic.
I like the talk I hear about Tebow
Although I am tired of hearing about the guy, I like the talk of him being picked late in theh 1st round. It may mean better trade down value for pick number 27 if there are no stand outs left.
I don’t want to see any “reaches”.
by doomsdayreturns on Mar 23, 2010 10:00 PM CDT reply actions
Uhh I hope u don't mean for us to take Tebow
and I don’t think Tebow is the guy ppl will trade up for
by nicholas.rodriguez on Mar 24, 2010 3:53 AM CDT up reply actions
Maybe the Jags
The Jaguars are the only ones I see trading back up into the late 1st to get Tebow.
by lonewolfz28 on Mar 24, 2010 10:48 PM CDT up reply actions
That's a scenario that might play out
If CLE wants McCoy, and MIN shows interest as well, then it’s possible CLE may trade with DAL to jump ahead of MIN (#30).
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Mar 24, 2010 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions
That scenario could happen
Dallas gets: picks 2.38 and 3.92
Cleveland gets: picks 1.27 and 4.136
Dallas drafts:
2.38 – NT Terrence Cody
2.59 – FS Morgan Burnett
3.90 – C JD Walton
3.92 – WR Taylor Price
If Thomas falls past the top 20 picks
I really hope the Cowboys attempt to trade up and get him (seeing the majority of Texas games the past two years). But as I don’t see that happening, I really hope they just trade down and stock up in the 2nd and 3rd considering how deep the draft is.
by Thehomerpimpson on Mar 23, 2010 11:19 PM CDT reply actions
If he is at 20 and they don't trade up
I will most likely be upset… I am open to trading down to get another 2nd and 3rd since this is a deep draft and there will be good talent there
by nicholas.rodriguez on Mar 24, 2010 3:55 AM CDT up reply actions
No reason to get upset.
Remember just because there isn’t a trade up, doesn’t mean that they weren’t trying to trade up.
They tried to trade up last year, but no one took the bait.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 24, 2010 6:45 AM CDT up reply actions
Nice post, Chandie
You make a really good point on Odrick vs Spears. I’ve been of the opinion that Odrick would be an upgrade over Spears, after some seasoning, but maybe that’s just wishful thinking because I’m not a Spears fan. Canty did much more in the same role than Spears (not that I would have re-signed Canty at the ridiculous price NY paid and Olshansky performed slightly better in his first year.) Maybe I need to re-think the Odrick thing.
However, I will disagree with you on Nate Allen. You keep making the point (or maybe its been others, but I’ve seen it stated here) that Allen should go high in the draft (25-38) because that’s where Chung and Delmas went last year. Yes, this draft is not rich in top end CB prospects, but its richer in total high-end prospects. And assuming most teams wont reach for need in the first round and a half, that will push the second tier players like Nate Allen into the mid-to-late 2nd round. Now, I personally think Allen goes 40-50 range, which is before our 2nd pick. But this draft is deeper than the last one, and guys like Delmas and Chung would not go at the top of the 2nd in this draft. They would go a little later, just like Allen will this year.
I like your take on Odrick vs Spears
Which is why I’m torn that DE Carlos Dunlap intrigues me so much.
He obviously has huge character concerns, but his production and measurables are off the charts…
If Thomas, Iupati, Pouncey and Wilson are all gone at #27, would Dunlap be worth taking a chance on (assuming no trade down partners)?
Are you playing Dunlap at DE or OLB in our scheme?
I think he goes about 270, which is pretty heavy for an OLB and way light for a 3-4 DE. I assume he’s an OLB.
I initially envisioned him playing DE
but he may be able to play both/either.
He weighed in at 277 at the combine and 279 last week at Florida’s pro day (and ran a 4.66 and 4.61 40). I read somewhere else his actual playing weight was more like 293 (did he drop weight getting in shape for the combine/pro day or was his playing weight exaggerated…).
If he goes 290+ then I'm much more interested
He could make a good DE. But I wonder if that’s ideal for the Phillips 3-4 in which we play an undersized NT who has strong pass rush and DEs who play the run better.
I wouldn't
The first rd is where you don’t want to take risks and Campbell could definitely be the next Mike Mamula., looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane.
In Romo we Trust
Agreed
Besides, 3/4 of the Mocks have Al Davis taking him…which means he probably won’t.LOL We don’t need to worry about it. There are way too many teams much more desperate for LT help then we are…Detroit, Washington, KC, Seattle, Oakland, Buffalo, S.F., Pittsburgh, GB and AZ all need Tackle help as bad or worse than we do. That’s why I doubt Iupati will make it to us. Someone will grab him to use as a Guard with hopes of making a LT out of him in a season or two.
by lonewolfz28 on Mar 24, 2010 10:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Looks like Tarzan Plays like Jane
I love those sayings.
All hat, no cattle
All show, no go
when the hell is the draft already
Thousands of Mocks and Thousands of Opinions
and we have to depend on Jerry Jones to make the right decision.
He seems to be out of the pet cat business since he got burned on Quincy Carter a blue moon ago.
If all those mocks are worth thier salt we will have to choose Wilson, Campbell or Pouncey.Of course there are bunch of them that say we will pick Mays, we areen’t that dumb are we.
I would hate that we had to take Pouncey in the first round because I don’t think many if any have him with a first round grade and I don’t see any drafts with him taken ahead of us at 27.
If the player we want doesn’t drop significantly I just don’t see us trading up.It would cost too much.
You never know what some of these teams may do.Al Davis may want some more press time and pick Campbell early or take another QB who knows.
That’s why we watch the draft, it’s like a poker game.I like the fact that we don’t have to reach for a player but I sure wish we had more chips in this game.
by TCB Orange Dino on Mar 24, 2010 12:13 PM CDT reply actions
Jerry will follow his board
as he’s done the last several drafts, therefore we are relying on Tom Ciskowski really.
In Romo we Trust
That's not a great sign
If you look at the last 3 drafts, only Spencer and Jenkins have become every-down players for the team. That’s 2 out of 26 drafted players.
Dallas has to do better than that.
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
True but...
I think that thought is a little flawed. While Felix isn’t an “every-down” player, he’s a huge part of the offense.
I think when you’re looking at teams that are drafting in the bottom 8 or 10 of the draft, are generally pretty talented teams.
I think New England is a pretty good team… but if you look at their first round picks from the bottom 8 the past few years,
Although, I will say that the Giants have been great at maximizing the draft… horrible at Free Agency, but great drafting.
I don’t think your wrong, I just don’t think Dallas is that much different from most other good teams.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 25, 2010 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions
I was talking about ALL picks
…not just the 1st rounders.
If Terry is right about it holding tight to Cisky’s board, the track record, relative to the 31 other teams, is not good and that cannot be denied. If this is another draft where there are no full-time impact players yielded, it could be the Lacewell era all over again.
I hold them accountable for better scouting and better choices in the draft. If 2010’s haul looks like 2009’s, this team will begin a painful and precipitous decline in their play on the field.
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
I know what you're saying.
I think 2010 will be better, but I’m also not going to judge 2009 yet.
Just out of curiousity, from where Dallas sat last year.. what players would they have gotten that would have had an immediate impact?
I’m too lazy to look the players up haha.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 25, 2010 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions
Just off the top of my head...
Loadholt, Vollmer and Beatty would be my top 3.
Would we be having this difficult discussion about O-line depth if they had “reached” for one of them?
Again, Dallas can’t simply stand pat and let the draft fall. The window on this O-line will close quickly if young talent isn’t acquired to protect the skill players we’ve invested so much money in.
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Uh?
Loadholt, Vollmer and Beatty wouldn’t have been able to provide inmediate impact, because they wouldn’t have started in front of Colombo or Free.
For example, Beatty couldn’t beat McKenzie who struggled on the right side of the Giants line… And he would have been an inmediate contributor!
HAHAHAHAHA.
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
You don't think Loadholt could have played RT when Colombo went down?
Because as near as I could tell, that’s what he did for the Vikes and looks to be the RT of the future for them.
And Beatty? Beatty started several games as a rookie and did a fine job.
“He is a good, young football player,” Coughlin said. "We have asked him to play a number of spots. He has played left tackle, he has played tight end, right tackle and has done a good job.
Vollmer is clearly the future at tackle for the Pats.
Again Chandus, where do you get your stuff? It just seems completely baseless most of the time.
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
yeah Loadholt is a good RT
and looks to have a long career there
by AustonianAggie on Mar 30, 2010 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Sorry, a backup isn't an immediate IMPACT player
More like an inmediate MAYBE…
That’s your problem with last year’s draft, you like to say that the Cowboys drafted backups… What’s the difference with the guys that you wanted to take?
That they would have been backups, too?
Again, Blings, where do you get your stuff? It just seems completely baseless most of the time.
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
And who was the impact player you are lauding from our draft?
Can you just admit you’re wrong here so we can be done with it?
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
There was no impact player...
But you like to make the assumption that someone else would have been…
Hey, I can play that game! What would have happened if Ware had gone down! Butler would have been forced to play an extensive role…
The same would have happened for your guy, Beatty, but the guy wouldn’t have started over Free and that’s fairly easy to see, Free is a better player right now.
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
I disagree with that
I think the Cowboys have drafted well the last several years which is the reason their talent level has increased dramatically in that time period.
In Romo we Trust
Agree with Terry
With the exception of last years draft, I think we’ve drafted extremely well the last few years. You’re not going to hit on everyone.
I agree
Most of the team was built from the draft. Everyone, even the haters, describe Dallas as having a lot of talent on the roster.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Mar 25, 2010 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Wait a minute...
That’s not saying anything. Every team can say THAT.
This is a question of how the talent has been acquired and the team has not done as well in the post-Tuna years of drafting as they did in the Tuna years.
The same could be said of the Post-Jimmy years relative to the Jimmy years.
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Hows that?
That’s not saying anything. Every team can say THAT.
Every team can say it’s roster is loaded with talent????
the team has not done as well in the post-Tuna years of drafting as they did in the Tuna years.
3 drafts since Tuna have netted: Spencer, Jenkins, Scandrick, Ball, Felix, Choice, Cricket, Bennett, Phillips, Free, Folk, Buehler, Ogletree and half the draft class of ‘09 was derailed by injury so they’re real value is undetermined.
BP had one great draft in 2005, and the rest were average.
I don’t see any proof that the drafts during BP’s era were better.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Mar 29, 2010 7:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Sorry
I meant that every team can say they were built through the draft…
As to the second point, you have only 3 starters from those three drafts. It’s a challenge to find a team that has done worse than that.
You could say the reason is that the Cowboys are just more talented, but then that’s an indictment of the coaching and/or the players themselves, because they obviously haven’t put the talent on display in the post-season.
Again, 3 drafts, 3 starters. That’s not a good track record. Agree?
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
I'm counting 8 starters (so far)
And that is a good track record, at least as good as BP’s. I would say maybe better since BP was rebuilding the team and had an easier time finding players to unseat players already on the roster.
Wade has had to find guys to supplant better players in general.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Mar 30, 2010 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah
Spencer? Starter.
Jenkins? Starter.
Scandrick? 3rd CB, starter (BPism).
Felix? Starter.
Choice? Starter due to injuries, but looks like starting material to me.
Free? Starter due to injuries, but looks like starting material to me.
Ball has started some games due to injuries, Cricket at FB and Bennett and Phillips have also started in 2 TE sets…
That’s a lot of players starting… But I guess that they just don’t count… Meanwhile, a player like Beatty that manages to start a few games due to injury and in place of a struggling McKenzie is an All-World RT…
I just don’t get this… Such a glass half empty perspective in some cases and the complete opposite in others… 5Blings is like a box of chocolates…
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
You are not a starter if you replace an injured a guy and do not keep the job when the injured player comes back
That knocks out Free, Choice and Ball.
The third CB, being the first CB OFF THE BENCH, is not a starter, no matter what Parcells may have said.
Bennett and Phillips see the field in 2 TE sets, That does not make them starters.
That leaves us with Jenkins, Spencer and Felix. Three starters.
And I say this as someone who thinks Jerry’s drafting has improved greatly when contrasted to the pre-Bill Parcells era
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
oh yeah his drafting is way better
if anything good comes out of 2009’s draft Jerry will be drafting even better post-parcels
by AustonianAggie on Mar 31, 2010 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions
Heh, I was just answering to 5Blings and his different perspectives...
In one side he labels players like Beatty and Vollmer as IMPACT contributors when they only started because the players in front of them struggled due to injuries and in the other side he labels as NOBODIES players that have started in our team due to injuries or because the many schemes that the Cowboys have makes many players “starters” (3rd CB, 2 TE sets, FB Pro Set, etc.).
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
I'm sorry...but can you try that again?
I don’t speak incoherent-ese.
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
The THIRD cb, the SECOND te, etc are not starters
Again, I think Jerry has done better drafting since Parcells has come and gone, but you cannot say that guys who don’t start are ‘starters’ to make that case. Call them contributors, call them essential components, just don’t call them starters
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
Or...
call them what they are; backups.
But only if you want to be correct moreso than you want to argue an indefensible position for the sake of argument.
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
That's your opinion
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
Do you think Martellus Bennett is a starter? I am serious with this question
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
How does a starter sit on the bench when the game starts with us on offense?
This is really comically stupid if you think about it.
There may be a Seinfeld or Curb Your Enthusiasm bit hidden somewhere in here.
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Either you're an idiot or Bill Parcells is
When you run a 2-TE primary offense (which the ‘Boys did), then you’re 2nd and even 3rd TEs are “starters”.
BP said that there are 13-14 “starters” on each side of the ball.
So the only comically stupid statement I’ve heard is from you.
He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. - Thomas Jefferson
I love PArcells, and I ove what he did for the Cowboys, but there are not 13 to 14 starters on each side of the ball. That is a comically stupid statement
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
Sure there are
The 2nd TE plays roughly 70% of plays.
The 3rd WR is in on 40%.
Felix (the 2nd RB) played 40%.
That’s 14 on Offense. The 3rd TE was significant, as was our 3rd RB.
Hatcher and Bowen played nearly as much as Olshansky & Spears.
Carpenter and our 3rd CB Scandrick were in more than 50% of the time in the nickel/dime.
That’s 15 significant players on D.
You could add Ball and Saivii as significant contributors as well.
Saying there’s only 11 Starters on each side is rediculous. The official starter at FB (Cricket) played fewer downs than either Jones, Crayton, or Bennett.
I’ll take BP as my proof, not withstanding the facts. You’ve got bupkiss, outside an antiquated definition of starters.
He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. - Thomas Jefferson
So the TE that was in on 100% of the plays is what, the SUper Starter?
A significant contributor does not mean you are a starter. You do understand that only 11 guys are allowed on the field at a time, right?
14 Starters? and you say I have Bupkiss? You can kiss my tucchus.
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
OMG that is lame...
But now I think you are just pulling my leg.
Please tell me this is all April Fool’s folly.
I caught you, didn’t I?
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Maybe he means line shifts for the Stars?
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
I'm the idiot but you can't tell the difference between "You're and "your"?"
I’ve always found that if you want to be disparaging about someone’s intellect, you’d better confirm that you’re smarter than they are (or at least proofread your own post and not open yourself up to insult and ridicule), and trust me buddy, YOU’RE not.
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Yes
The team runs enough 2 TE sets to make the 2TE a starter.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Apr 1, 2010 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions
They do not START the game in that alignment
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
No, it's not
It’s a fact you don’t like because your fandom won’t allow you to see it without some sort of emotional skew.
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Not a fact at all
Hell yes, I’m a fan, but that isn’t coloring my opinion of the amount of starters.
I told you whom I consider starters, let’s see your list.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Apr 1, 2010 10:35 PM CDT up reply actions
I gave you my definition
What else do you want?
If you call them starters, then you have to apply the same rules to every other team and that’s just impossible for any fan.
So, here’s a wild and crazy idea…
How about we choose (just this once) to use the term ‘starter’ like every other person not trying to manipulate the facts into some sort of Cowboys-centric fantasy world to prove a point that can’t be proven.
I’ll use the guys I listed in the earlier comment as the basis for the statement and leave it at that.
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
5 Blings Translation
I don’t have anything. I can’t show you my list because it will invalidate my argument.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Apr 1, 2010 11:38 PM CDT up reply actions
APerfectStar Translation
Stephen McGee is a starter because I refuse to agree with anything 5Blings says because it is negative about my team. Now leave me and my pacifier alone!
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Wow
Better call Orkin, and get that bug out of your ass.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Apr 1, 2010 11:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Do you consider every 6th man in basketball a starter too?
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
That's between me and my pastor
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Apr 1, 2010 11:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Come on APS...
help me out here…I really want to understand where you are coming from.
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
A fair and logical point of view
Do you agree with me the the 2 TE set is interchangeable with the traditional 2 back backfield, or one back and 3 WR in the Dallas offense?
And do you agree that the defense spends maybe 40+% of the time in the nickel or dime formation?
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Apr 1, 2010 11:58 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't know any of those answers
…but I do know that only 11 players on each side of the ball start the football game.
I also know that you’ve weighed on on posts about whether Felix should start over Barber and that your current stance would contradict your previous comments because, based on what you’ve aid here, Felix is ALREADY a starter.
Hence my confusion with your “logical” POV.
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
sorry, typing fast...
weighed “in”
what you’ve “said”
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Felix is the starter
If you don’t count him as a starter is up to you, but I think if you put it up for a blog poll, you would see more people agree with me than they do with you.
And before this thread shrinks to nothing, I would like you to list the 3 players you have deemed as starters.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Apr 2, 2010 12:36 AM CDT up reply actions
Anderson, Spencer and Jenkins
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
BTW
I’m not trying to make you feel stupid, but I am going to point out the falsehoods in your arguments using empiricism until you either tap out or I feel like I’ve taken the bout by unanimous decision.
Here’s a link that completely contradicts (in every possible way) your statement;
Felix is the starter
If you don’t count him as a starter is up to you, but I think if you put it up for a blog poll, you would see more people agree with me than they do with you.
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
No chance of that
I’m not trying to make you feel stupid
Yes, the link goes to a good article on why Felix should be the starter. I totally agree. This only adds an example to my side of the argument.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Apr 2, 2010 10:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Hmmm
A post on why Felix SHOULD be the starter over Marion Barber adds an example to your side of the argument that Felix IS a starter.
It’s all so clear to me now.
So which malt liquor is your favorite? King Cobra? Colt 45? Mickey’s Big Mouth?
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Nice try
But the “starting” RB in 2010 will be Felix. (and you can’t go wrong with Mickey’s Big Mouth
smooth and refreshing.)
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Apr 3, 2010 12:10 AM CDT up reply actions
8? where?
Can you list them?
Maybe we have a different view of what is a starter.
I define it as someone who starts the game with their respective first-string unit and has the distinction of being #1 on the depth chart at the position.
How do you define it?
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
I don't think 8 is the number...
but I do think that Felix should be included in your group.
He’s been an impact player.
I even would include nickel CB’s considering they play over 50% of the snaps.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 31, 2010 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Eight starters
Spencer
Jenkins
Scandrick
Felix
Cricket
Bennett (or Phillips)
Folk
Buehler
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
And I predict
These guys will be starting in the near future
Free
Ogletree
Jason Williams
Mike Hamlin
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
So I count 3 starters
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
I don't know what to tell you
If you can only see 3 starters then that’s your problem. I think you are purposely being ridiculous to try and further your point of view that Dallas can’t draft without the guidance of the Tuna in the War Room.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
How is Scandrick a starter when he is standing next to Dave Campo when the game starts?
I’m purposely calling out the fact that you’ll say anything to avoid answering the tough questions…
So answer.
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
I've answered every question you've thrown at me
Yes the nickel CB is a starter, IMO. You don’t have to agree, but I thought you were at least a sensible, if not irrational debater.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Apr 1, 2010 10:42 PM CDT up reply actions
The question was this...
What is our definition of a starter?
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Any player who would rationally be expected to be on the field
For a large portion of plays, offensively or defensively.
I don’t see what the problem is with counting the nickel CB or 2nd TE when these formations are used often throughout the game.
You act like I’m putting everyone into the starter catagory, when it’s only adding 2 guys to my starter’s list.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Apr 1, 2010 11:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Because you actually are...
You’ve redefined the term to meet your needs without consulting anyone.
So let’s keep the ball rolling here…
What does a “large portion of the plays” mean?
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
LOL
Oh, I forgot to consult with someone first. Well, I didn’t realize I had to seek committee approval to publish my harmless little definition.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Apr 1, 2010 11:50 PM CDT up reply actions
What does "large portion of plays" mean?
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Large portion of plays
Let’s say 35-40% of the offensive and 35-40% of the defensive plays. I’m not sure what the normal % of defense is played from the nickel, but maybe it’s more.
If you think that is fair.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Apr 1, 2010 11:54 PM CDT up reply actions
So would you agree that your definition is both
…completely arbitrary and runs contrary to what MOST people would say if asked to define the same term?
Or would you disagree with me and say that most people would agree with your definition that it revolves around these percentages that you’ve cooked up?
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
No
I wouldn’t agree with that. I’d say I’m only stating what most people would say.
As for the %‘s, I wouldn’t have included them except that you seemed to want to know my definition.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Apr 2, 2010 12:30 AM CDT up reply actions
But I had to know the underlying assumption for why...
you would call someone who doesn’t start the game a “starter”.
Now I know.
But I disagree that most people would say that a player who begins the game on the bench is a starter.
That’s the clearest way I can find to dimension our disagreement.
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
How do you see Bennett or Phillips as starters? They are situational players, seeing hte field only on the 2 TE set
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
Yes
In the 2 TE sets, one of them will start, and the Cowboys play a lot of 2 TE sets.
Same as counting Scandrick as a starter in the Nickel defense.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
That's just stupid
It’s like saying when Dallas goes 3-wide on 3rd and long, because he is the #3, Crayton is a starter.
In your book, we must have 53 starters since they all get on the field in some package or another.
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Yes, it does
Read above…you’re the person lacking knowledge.
He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. - Thomas Jefferson
If by knowledge, you mean...
the ability to understand why some people just refuse to live in the real world (yes, I mean the big bad world that include ESPN and all the major media outlets who sometimes say things about the Cowboys that are not nice), then yeah, you got me pegged.
But I have found, that in the business world, success escapes those who are afraid to admit their inadequacies and can’t just say they’re wrong when they’re wrong.
I hope you’ve achieved much success.
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Ah, so we have 2 kickers, right?
Who is the staring kicker, or do you count only one? And if so, how do you chose which one?
You see, you are the one who can’t stand to here facts that go against your preconceived ideas.
Yes, the 2nd TE is a starter, and yes the nickel CB is a starter, and yes Crayton is also a starter also, your right.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Apr 1, 2010 10:46 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't know what's so hard to understand either.
If the Cowboys primary base formation uses a 2nd TE in lieu of a true fullback, that makes the 2nd TE a starter.
The Cowboys get the ball on the opening kickoff
It’s a touchback.
Dallas gets the ball on the 20 and (surprise) Bennett is not on the field.
In the example given, in your eyes, is Bennett still considered a starter?
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
If he plays the majority of the snaps...
….Over Deion Anderson, then yes. Now that he’s underachieved is a different matter but he’s still been just as much of a cog blocking in the running game as a fullback would be.
Hmmm
okay…
Let’s just go back to the original comment I made that started all of this.
I counted 3 starters in the last 3 drafts post-Tuna.
I posted my definition of STARTER very clearly.
I did not include other fluffy terms like “significant contributor” or someone who plays 42.57923% of the snaps as part of my definition.
I would concede that EVERY team has significant contributors and players who play more downs than the starters.
But that is all a non sequitur here.
The comparison has to use the same definitions for all teams and players or the juxtaposition is an unfair one skewed towards the Cowboys.
If you use my definition, for better or worse, then one can see that my original point – Dallas has not fared well in the past 3 drafts in obtaining players who start the game with the first string on offense and defense relative to their peer teams – is valid.
I cannot say how we compare to other teams using the %-of-downs-played and “significant contributor” indexes that have been suggested only because I could not, for the life of me, tell you who is (and isn’t) a significant contributor for the Bills, Bucs and Bengals.
As a result, I think you probably understand when I say I have not found anything said here, thus far, that amounts to any sort of coherent and convincing counterpoint.
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
No your original point is not valid
And you have certainly not proven anything other than you disapprove or dislike or have been disappointed with the 3 drafts since BP left.
Dallas has not fared well in the past 3 drafts in obtaining players who start the game
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Apr 2, 2010 12:33 AM CDT up reply actions
It's valid because the facts are irrefutable
In fact, the only way you could come up with to try and argue with it was to come up with your own misguided definition of a term that I clearly defined.
Here’s the argument in a nutshell;
5B: 1+2 = 3
APS: well, in my own personalized math book, 1 is really 5.439, so 5B is wrong and 1+2 = 7.439
Another way to look at it;
We’re facing each other in court…
5B: Judge, APS is guilty of murdering ByeDawk
APS: No your honor, I just pushed him into that knife…14 times…but I didn’t murder him.
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
LOL
Touche
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Apr 2, 2010 10:06 PM CDT up reply actions
I knew you'd come around...
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
What exactly do you disagree with?
The numbers or something else?
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
I think you're underestimating Pouncy
He was taken ahead of the Boys pick at #27 in 6 of the 20 mocks OCC surveyed in his last mock draft round up.
He’s graded out at #24 overall player in this year’s draft class by NFL Draft Countdown, #22 by ESPN’s Scouts, Inc and given a 1st round grade by Draft Insider (although he doesn’t make the Top 25 list).
And National Football Post may be the highest on Pouncey. He earned their highest grade this year with a 7.5. Only five other prospects matched that grade; Suh, McCoy, Berry, McClain and TE Aaron Hernandez. In fact, they view him as a better prospect than any of the OTs, Iupati, Thomas, etc.
Funny that Aaron Hernandez was rated so high
Because on Path to the Draft last night Mike Mayock didnt even have Hernandez in his top 5 at TE. Matter of fact, he didnt even mention the guy and probably 12 TEs were discussed. I like Hernandez. A little small, but crazy fast for a TE. Will cause big time match up problems.
How fast is he?
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 25, 2010 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions
He ran a 4.64 at the combine.
“TE Aaron Hernandez ran 4.58 and 4.63. He did 30 reps at 225 and ran good routes and caught the ball like a wide receiver. He lacks in-line blocking ability and has some off-the-field issues.” – Mike Mayock
Well, this quote sums up why he probably won't be on the Cowboys board.
He’s clearly more in the mold of an athletic tight end who lines up outside on occasion than a guy who gets down and dirty making sacrifices in the running game.
Pouncey is rated in the top 32 by a ton of sites.
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Oh yeah, I forgot...
REACH!!!!
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
What about ILB?
If all those players are gone, then doesn’t that mean Weatherspoon falls to 27?
And if you gonna reach at 27 for a FS, Burnett works better than Allen I think. Higher ceiling, great attitude, captain, formation caller, and is a magnet to the ball on tape. but yeah, they are both a reach at 27…
Possible
If all of the 1st round value LT’s and G’s are gone and Weatherspoon is available, by all means, grab him! I just don’t see him falling past the Giants, Eagles and Falcons.
if the draft breaks like this
i would fully expect Jerry to try and trade out of the first
2009 BTB Part Deux Fantasy League Champion. 'Kill Everybody 13-2'. KDP knows football.
Seems like every mock i read
has someone very good falling to Dallas. There will be someone we thought we’d never have a chance at, sitting there at 27
by AustonianAggie on Mar 25, 2010 10:43 AM CDT reply actions
If that happens, go ahead!
I’m only posting this in case such a thing doesn’t happen, the Cowboys can’t land a trade partner and as such have to suck air and “reach” for a player like the ones that I mentioned.
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
Sorry, but I think that Kyle Wilson's draft status would match his production.
Just not his first year. As you pointed out, some were dissatisfied with Jenkins after his first year. How did that work? So far it’s looking pretty good. So what if his rookie year Wilson is just the nickel or dime corner? I see no reason to pass up on the second best corner in the draft if he’s available.
What's the purpose of a 1st Round pick?
If the idea is developing talent for the future, a player like Wilson makes perfect sense.
If it’s about inmediate production, a player like Wilson is a reach.
That was the point behind this post, you can always find a way to see that every player in this supposed board can be seen as a reach. That’s it, I’m not saying that they’re actual reaches, it’s just that most guys available at that time in the Draft will be 2nd Round prospects that are going to get drafted in the 1st, that by itself makes them “reaches”.
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
True, that's the point
But first round players are supposed to be readier to play than anyone else and therefore it’s thought that they should produce inmediatelly…
That’s why some teams have stopped drafting receivers in the 1st Round, because for most it just takes too much time… And that’s why teams are reaching for OLineman, they are readier to play that any other position and it’s the one that has the less failures.
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
As someone pointed out
above, I don’t think anyone we draft will start at on game one, if its a good prospect, say a ET or Iupati, they might take the starting position later in the year if the respective starter is struggling or we are already out of playoff contention. I think we are set at every position right now and don’t discount the players drafted from last year, we don’t know if a player like Brewster shows up at TC and plays lights out and beats Kosier for the LG position.
So having said that, I’m ok with the BPA philosophy and get whoever is the highest graded player available or if its a player like Spiller then entertain offers to move a couple of spots for better value.
I don't fill like replying to the mass amount on the "starter" situation.
I do however think that the term starter is something that is kind of irrelevant.
I like the term “impact player”.
To me Scandrick, Felix, and Buehler are impact players.
That is all, now you can go back to the 45 posts of “I’m right, NO I’m right!” posts.
: )
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Apr 2, 2010 5:37 PM CDT reply actions
This I agree with
While there might only technically be 22 starters, judging draft classes off significant contributors is a much superior method.
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Apr 2, 2010 7:26 PM CDT up reply actions
2 more on my side
woo-hoo
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Apr 2, 2010 10:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe
As soon as you figure out how to measure that against other teams, do let me know, will ya?
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Once again I don't really want to get in on this...
but I don’t think it’s that hard to measure a guy who has had an impact.
I don’t think Bennett would be an impact player, but Felix would definitly qualify as would Buehler.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Apr 2, 2010 11:47 PM CDT up reply actions
If it's not hard, try it...
but you have to know what every other team considers the players who’ve had an impact to be comparative. Otherwise, you’re just comparing it to yourself or some view of what you think is a good performance…which is out of place in the NFL.
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Didn't I just try?
I’m not going to look at every other team right now.
I just don’t think it’s that hard.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Apr 5, 2010 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Uh no
You said who you think ours are. But that is meaningless unless you compare it to how other teams have fared against the same yardstick.
Make sense?
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
That's easy...look at the schemes
A team that uses a 3-wide formation as their normal base (like Indy), you would include their 3rd WR. Actually, most any rational person would include the 3rd WR as a “starter”. Same goes for the 3rd CB.
Now teams that rotate DL (like Miami, Dallas, etc.), the DL would be included.
Teams that run primarily 2-TE offenses (like Dallas), the 2nd TE would be included. Teams that use a platoon system at RB would include both backs. It’s silly to consider Cricket a starter at the expense of Felix, when the latter played significantly more snaps. They both are significant contributors.
It is only someone that is trying to make an inane argument that would stick to an outdated mode of “11 starters only” as a measurement of quality of a draft. Just look at Barber’s Pro Bowl nod…at a time that he was “officially” a backup.
He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. - Thomas Jefferson
Precisely
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Apr 3, 2010 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions
You've used the word "inane" too much
Fire your writer.
So put up or shut up…rate our last 3 drafts against all the other teams using the terms you’ve attached your wagon to AND PLEASE SHOW STATISTICS.
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Using only the last 3 drafts is statistically limited, but here goes...
and not to mention highly premature for all but ’07.
‘07: 8 picks, 5 significant contributors (Spencer, Free, Folk, Cricket, Alan Ball). Now I’ll concede that Folk ultimately was a miss, but for three years, he was our kicker and made the Pro Bowl in ‘07. Free is our next starting LT (a huge hit),..but you might say he hasn’t yet. Well, it takes 3-4 ears for OL to become NFL ready. This is a well known dictum. Plus, we got Cleveland’s #1 for ’08. All-in-all a very good draft. Solid B (Maybe an A-).
‘08: 6 picks, 5 significant contributors (Felix, Jenkins, Martellus, Choice, Scandrick). Only Eric Walden failed to stick. Given Felix’s gradual increase into the primary ball carrier late in ’09, ’Tellus being the 2nd TE, Choice getting significant carries (and excellent production) and Scandrick being our 3rd CB, this draft has become our future. An outstanding draft. A+
‘09: This is tougher. All of these players have to be judged by potential. Since out 1st pick is really Roy Williams, and the next two are 3rd round prospects, I’ll have to judge by Wade’s comments.
- Both Williams (Jason & Brandon) are getting a lot of love from Wade, position coaches, and even Demarcus Ware. Both will have a much bigger impact this year.
- Brewster and Hodge were red-shirted, but were getting high praise last offseason.
- Phillips and Buehler were significant contributors. Phillips played exceedingly well for the 3rd TE and Buehler’s impact on field position was enormous. Over 10 yards better in starting field position (or worse for the other team). Set club record for touchbacks.
- Butler filled in well for Ware, albeit briefly, and showed some promise.
- Mike Hamlin will be competing for the FS starter and was a significant reason, as claimed by GM Jerry, that led to Ken Hamilins’ departure.
- Manny Johnson and the 2 UDFA WRs were future prospects that GM Jerry has continually praised. I’d say it was irrationally, but given the same outlandish claim was made by GM Jerry about Miles Austin last year, I’ve got to believe him.
- UDFA Ogletree made great contributions late last year and seems to be a real find.
In summary, I’d say this group looks promising. If you believe Ware, Brandon Williams is going to be a beast. If you believe Wade, Jason Williams will be Brookings’ replacement and will compete with Barbie for the nickel (or replace James). Mike Hamlin may very well be our starting FS. Buehler is a weapon. Ogletree and Phillips got significant reps and produced well. Grade: Inc (though I’d lean toward a B)…could very well become an A in the next year or two.
All-in-all, I’d say the ’Boys have done very well…exceedingly well. Getting 5 significant contributors in each draft is outstanding. Last year “seemed” like a wasted year, at first, but the comments from the coaches and players seem to belie that perception.
Your insipid and fallacious insistance on using and outdated “Starter” tag as a measure of drafts so recent is, quite simply misguided and erroneous. But thanks for getting me to review our most recent drafts…I’m more optimistic than ever!
He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. - Thomas Jefferson
Whoa Nellie!
Off you went to your ranting and raving again without doing your breathing exercises.
Dude, the doctor has told you about that and what it could do to your heart. Knock it off.
Now, let’s review.
All-in-all, I’d say the ’Boys have done very well…exceedingly well.
This statement has no real weight unless you compare how the cowboys have done to other teams. It’s like saying the sprinter did well in the 100 yard dash. It might be true, but how would you know with any certainty unless you knew how many people did better or worse? Sorry my brother, but it is what it is.
Hence my use of the word that you blew a blood vessel on “starter”. I used it because it is easy to compare our haul of 3 starters versus what other teams have done using the same metric. In that regard, we’ve fared poorly.
Your need to change the conversation into something that has no comparative meaning is a reflection of your need to win a blog fight, not be correct. But it’s okay…we know each other pretty well by now, don’t we?
:-)
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
I almost forgot
Props for all the words (that was quite an entry!) and praise for guys who’ve done nothing to earn a single solitary bit of it ON THE FIELD like Mike Hamlin, Jason and Brandon Williams.
You homer.
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
BTW, CBS Sportsline has a new ranking of Front Offices
Cowboys came in #2, behind only Indy. Previous perennial #1 Pittsburg, came in at #3, dropping due to recent drafts.
NFL DraftScout ranked the past 5 years and the ’Boys came in at #10.
He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. - Thomas Jefferson
I'd say 10 is about right...
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

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