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Inside the Numbers: The 2009 Cowboys Passing Game (Part II)

Ask ten different people about the state of the Cowboys receiving corps these days and you'll likely get eleven different answers. And it would definitely be a mixed bag of answers. Some might focus on the very public struggles of Roy Williams, others on Miles Austin's breakout season, others again might lecture you on Dez Bryant or Golden Tate or Jacoby Ford - or on all three.

The simple answer would be to look at the usual stats. Here's what the raw stats for the four top Cowboys receivers looked like in 2009:

2009
ReceptionsYardsAverage TDs
Miles Austin
81 1,320 16.3 11
Jason Witten
94 1,030 11.0 2
Patrick Crayton
37 622 16.8 5
Roy Williams
38 596 15.7 7

We've long held that the NFL is becoming more and more of a passing league. With a casual glance at the table above, it may not have struck you as particularly noteworthy that the 2009 Cowboys had two 1,000+ yards receivers, but in fact, this is only the fourth time in franchise history that this has happened. The other three seasons were 1979 (Tony Hill, Drew Pearson), 2006 (Owens, Glenn) and 2007 (Owens, Witten).

Were the Cowboys’ receivers individually as good as the overall stats suggest? Does Miles Austin really stand head and shoulders above the rest, is Patrick Crayton only half as good as Austin, how big a disappointment was Roy Williams and whatever happened to Jason Witten's touchdowns? Follow me as we turn the all seeing eye of Expected Points Value (EPV) on our receivers to uncover the truth behind the stats.

Star-divide

Go back to one of my previous posts if you would like a refresher on EPV.

Before digging into the individual receiver stats, please keep in mind that the EPV I'm using in these posts is the value of each play, not the value of each player. As I look at the player stats, what I'm actually doing is adding up the value of each play a player was involved in according to the play-by-play of the NFL game books. This is important because football is a team sport, and the credit or blame for each pass is shared by the receiver, the O-line, the coaching, opposing defenses and many others.

There is one important area in which I deviate from this rule as I look at receivers: Interceptions and turnovers on downs. I gave the full penalty of an interception to the overall passing game numbers, but am leaving it out of for the receivers. That's because you don't always know, on an interception, who the ball was intended for. In the game books, the scorer has to make a judgment call, but when the ball is tipped or overthrown for instance, who really knows where that ball was supposed to go?

More often than not, an interception really is a poor decision by the QB, despite the opinion of QBs that the receiver may have run the wrong route. And there's no way I could 'credit' Witten with that fluke bounce of the ball off his foot into the arms Kenny Phillips in the first Giants game last year.

The overall passing game numbers shake out as follows: The official records show 550 pass attempts. Two spikes, nine interceptions and two passing turnovers on downs - out the window. Leaves us with 537 pass attempts for the analysis, of which five passes have 'n.a.' as a target, because not even the official scorers had the slightest clue who those balls were intended for, and fans in the stands don't count as receivers.

The value of the Dallas Cowboys receivers

My good friend M. Excel and I have charted every single pass play of the 2009 season. The numbers below are the average value of a pass thrown to each Cowboys receiver. Rather than simply comparing quantitative stats like numbers of catches or total yards (not very helpful for comparing players), these figures show the average value that each play involving a Cowboys receiver generated for the team. And everything's factored in: those blown routes by Roy Williams? In there. Miles Austin's team leading 17 first down conversions on third down? Got 'em. The incomplete short lob to Martellus Bennett in the end zone against the Panthers? Look no further.

EPV by Receiver
Player/Position
Pass Att. EPV/PA Player/Position
Pass Att. EPV/PA
All Receivers 537 0.39 Halfbacks/FB 82
0.06
Marion Barber 35 0.14
Wide Receivers
290 0.54 Tashard Choice
22 0.07
Kevin Ogletree 8 1.25 Felix Jones 22 -0.02
Miles Austin 122 0.66 Deon Anderson 3 -0.33
Patrick Crayton 65 0.62 Tight Ends 160 0.32
Sam Hurd 10 0.56 Jason Witten 121 0.44
Roy Williams 85 0.23 John Phillips 9 0.17



Martellus Bennett 30 -0.09

 

So what can we deduce from this chart? Miles Austin rocks, Roy Williams is overpaid, Kevin Ogletree should see more playing time, Jason Witten had a disappointing year and that throwing to our running backs is not the best idea? On the surface, yes. But stay with me as we break the numbers down a little further.

The curious case of Jason Witten. Despite posting 1,030 receiving yards ('merely' the 19th best TE season in the Super Bowl era), there seems to be this nagging meme in Cowboys nation that Witten had a sub-par year. Perhaps this is because he had only 2 TD receptions last year, perhaps it's because of the uncharacteristically high seven false start penalties he accrued, perhaps it's something else altogether. And his EVP of 0.44, a lot lower than Austin and Crayton, seems to bear this out.

But the devil is in the details and the details in this case clearly are his lack of touchdowns. If we were to level the playing field between our receivers even further than we're already doing with EVP, and exclude all touchdown receptions from their figures ("No fair", a cry arises from in front of multiple monitors the world over - but it's just to illustrate a point), we end up with the following EVPs for the four top receivers:

1. Crayton: 0.44, 2. Witten: 0.42, 3. Austin: 0.37, 4. Williams: 0.07

We'll return to Crayton's and Williams' numbers a little further down, but it's pretty clear that Witten's numbers suffered from a lack of touchdowns. Why the Cowboys chose to ignore one of their most potent offensive weapons on touchdown plays continues to baffle me.

In an interview with CBSSports.com Witten said that only scoring two touchdowns in 2009 was frustrating, but overall he felt he had a tremendous year, finishing with the second best totals of his career in catches and yards. "I thought I had a good year," Witten said. "I didn't get in the end zone as much as I liked. You want to be that guy that makes those critical plays."

Kevin Ogletree or how to get great EVP numbers. As always with this data beware of the very small sample size behind some of these numbers. But still, one thing is undeniable - the few times Ogletree was called on, he delivered. Of eight passes thrown his way, he caught seven. The seven catches all came in situations with nine or more yards to go. Five of the seven catches resulted in first downs. We'll see if this short but impressive résumé is enough to get him more playing time in 2010.

Roy Williams: Red zone threat? As we've seen above, outside of his seven touchdowns, RWs performance really wasn't anything to write home about (of course, I haven't factored in his downfield blocking, which by now has attained superhero proportions). Now, if RW were a legitimate red zone threat, perhaps we could all learn to live with him, but is he?

2009
CraytonWilliamsWitten Austin
Pass Attempts 11 15 6 20
Red zone TDs 4 6 2 3
Red Zone EPV 0.75 0.35 0.26 0.18

Again, beware of the low sample sizes, but it looks like Roy Williams' production in the red zone, from a purely numerical point of view, could be taken up by Crayton and Witten without the Cowboys missing a beat.

Are our halfbacks really that bad? The EVP numbers seem to suggest that the Dallas halfbacks add little value to the passing game. And that is true. But it's not because the Dallas halfbacks can't catch the ball, far from it:


Pass Att. CMPCMP % 1st down 1st down%
Barber 35 26 74% 10 29%
Jones 22 19 86% 5 23%
Choice 22 15 68% 6 27%

All three halfbacks have very good to excellent completion percentages. But the passes to the halfbacks result in a first down (or TD) on less than a third of the passes. For comparison, Austin and Crayton are both close to 50 percent. And because EPV places a premium on conversions for a first down, the EPV numbers for our halfbacks are low.

I have no idea how many of the passes to the halfbacks were actually designed plays, my guess would be not that many. Now, if the majority of the passes to the halfbacks were thrown their way because no one else was open, then the EPV number is actually quite ok, because it effectively says that throwing to the halfbacks did not negatively affect the overall Cowboys game, but in fact maintained the value of the drive. Not at all shabby for the fourth or fifth read in the QBs progression.

The amazing Patrick Crayton. There. I said it. Patrick Crayton had an excellent year in terms of EPV, and whatever else you might think, there's little doubt that as a slot receiver he added significant value to the Cowboys games.

Going in to this analysis I had expected Patrick Crayton to come away with so-so numbers. Boy, was I surprised. The plays that involved Patrick Crayton generated nearly as much value for the Cowboys as plays involving Miles Austin. This does not mean that he would be able to replicate these numbers as the number one or two receiver on the team, but as a slot receiver, he did an exceptional, if under-appreciated, job.

In the next and final installment on the passing game we'll break down our top receivers further. Who was Romo's security blanket last season, who was the guy who got it done up the middle, and why all the love for Patrick Crayton?

[Hat tip to Brian Burke at advancednflstats.com for providing the EPV data]

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Crayton is a very underrated receiver

especially among many Cowboys fans. All the dude does is get open and catch passes, can’t really ask for more than that from your slot guy.

In Romo we Trust

by Terry on Mar 24, 2010 8:35 AM CDT reply actions  

It all goes back to his Jackie Smith moment.

And a mouth that runs faster than he does.

Personally, I’ve moved on. While he should have and routinely does catch THAT pass against the Giants, it’s not like he was ten yards behind the defense wide open. He tried to run before he had actually caught the ball. It happens. Fasano’s drop was far worse.

by MadMick on Mar 24, 2010 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

you can't crucify a player for a bad play

These guys are humans, not machines, they are prone to make both mental and physical errors on the field from time to time.

For anyone to base their opinion on Crayton simply on that one drop is ridiculous and I really don’t find his comments offensive, he just speaks the truth and pulls no punches about it.

In Romo we Trust

by Terry on Mar 24, 2010 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

His comments don't bother me.

However, his squawking about a Super Bowl rematch with the Patsies in October of that season and then dropping that pass in the playoff game does paint him as a goof; fair or not.

Like I said, I’ve moved on from the drop in the Giants game and appreciate him for the master technician he is. He shouldn’t be singled out anymore for that drop than Romo should for throwing the ball over T.O.’s head (who might have dropped the pass even if it were on target.)

by MadMick on Mar 24, 2010 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

You got me there. Maybe I haven't quite moved on.

He shouldn’t have dropped the d@mned ball then. I guess he didn’t want that Super Bowl rematch with the Patsies as bad as he thought he did.

by MadMick on Mar 24, 2010 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Everyone knows my stance on Crayton...

IMO, a more talented WR with more speed would’ve put up better numbers. There is nothing eye popping about him whatsoever. Get a player like Dez or Tate at the slot and see what speed does. The only thing fast about Crayton is his big mouth….

"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham

by Boyzfan94 on Mar 25, 2010 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

thats what's good about Crayton

There is nothing special about him, he just gets open and makes plays that are needed to move the offense. I know you like your receivers to be all about speed and flash, but sometimes you need a guy who’s going to be well rounded and can perform well in all aspects of the position.

In Romo we Trust

by Terry on Mar 25, 2010 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Alvin Harper was a lazy jagoff.....

And there are very few receivers who eclipse him as a big play receiver in the playoffs.

by MadMick on Mar 25, 2010 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Did you not read the article at all?

to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''

by APerfectStar on Mar 27, 2010 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Patrick Crayton has always been an underrated player

and some guys want him out just because he doesn’t have a fancy name, or face, or story behind, for now i’m happy with crayton even tough when i hated him after the giants playoff lost (big drop)

by ratware on Mar 24, 2010 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Crayton is a good slot receiver.

I have never gotten this analysis that he isn’t or that there needs to be an upgrade to that position.

He is haunted by a bad, and big, drop against the Giants, but it shouldn’t take way from a guy who consistently picked up significant first downs for the Cowboys.

Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 24, 2010 8:38 AM CDT reply actions  

I don't know that Crayton is devalued as a slot receiver.

I just think that he wasn’t appreciated as the #2. The guy’s one of the better slot guys in the league, in my opinion, but just an average 2.

by Baked Potato Soup on Mar 24, 2010 8:40 AM CDT reply actions  

Not the majority...

but there are some guys here that think Crayton is garbage.

Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 24, 2010 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

That has always been my assesment of Crayton

One of the best #3 WR’s in the league, but just average for a #2. Where the upgrade needs to be is at the #2 spot, whether that’s addressed through the draft or getting RW to play to his talent level… but probably through the draft.

by TK19 on Mar 24, 2010 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed

Crayton is a victim of the harsh Cowboys spotlight. Fans of 90% of the teams out there would love to have a slot receiver like Crayton. Heck, there are several that would love to have him as their #2.LOL He does his job better than most. Upgradeable…definitely. Underrated…I believe so.

by lonewolfz28 on Mar 25, 2010 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Upgradeable isn't even a word.

The Saints would have him 5th at best on their depth chart.

by MadMick on Mar 25, 2010 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

And?

Hence the part about “90%”. He’d probably be 4th or 5th on a couple teams…but not on the vast majority of them.

by lonewolfz28 on Mar 25, 2010 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

In 2009

Crayton had a 80 yard TD and a key 64 yard gain against the Eagles. He was also on the receiving end of that great scramble and pass by Romo right before the half against the Flacons, and caught the game-winning TD against the Redskins. Dude made significant plays last year…and frankly does every year. And let’s not forget his punt returns last season.

That one drop (you know what I’m talking about) cost him mightily in the eyes of Cowboys fans everywhere. Which is too bad considering the value he’s brought to the team since 2004 as a 7th round former college quarterback. In my mind he’s a solid contributor to the team.

by DavidH22 on Mar 24, 2010 8:45 AM CDT reply actions  

You know what?

I’m gonna go buy an 84 jersey. It was a staple of my wardrobe growing up, between Doug Cosbie and Jay Novacek.

by Baked Potato Soup on Mar 24, 2010 8:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but the impression I got

was that Witten didn’t have as many TDs because he was often kept back to help the woeful O line pass block. Pass blocking could also explain the higher number of false starts. I have no stats to prove any of this; I’m just speculating.

by Fernie67 on Mar 24, 2010 8:59 AM CDT reply actions  

You're right

about Witten being held back to block quite a bit, especially in the red zone. But it didn’t really help!

Another interesting tidbit about Witten was that he started off the season extremely slow in terms of yards per catch. He’d always been a decent downfield threat, but I think after like 10 games he was only getting 9 yards a catch. I was genuinely concerned he’d lost a step or three. But then over his last six games he averaged nearly 14 yards a catch, and had six receptions of 25 yards or more, including a career-high 70 yarder against the Redskins. My faith was restored.

by DavidH22 on Mar 24, 2010 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

You're discouting

that teams look for Witten in the red zone. He’s consistently double-teamed down there.
I thought the team did a good job of game planning for other targets down there last year. If this team could develop some power running push inside the ten, Witten’s TD numbers would jump again.

Teams play pass on Dallas inside the ten, and bracketing Witten has become priority one.

by Rafael Vela on Mar 24, 2010 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

pouncey

Which is why I’d like to see pouncey fall to 27. He’d help immediately, I think the tackles worth a 1st will be long gone.

by just4fun on Mar 24, 2010 2:52 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Over the last 50 years, the Cowboys have had some pretty good #3 receivers

Kelvin Martin, Kevin Williams, Butch Johnson, Pete Gent, etc…but I think Crayton crushes them all. Sure, the comparison is inexact, but that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

I am also impressed with Crayton’s very healthy 14.7 average on nearly 200 career receptions. For someone who doesn’t appear to be too big or overly fast, it seems like he sure gets some significant YAC.

by DavidH22 on Mar 24, 2010 8:59 AM CDT reply actions  

Kevin Williams?

He had that one out-of-body experience against the Cardinals on MNF in a game they needed to secure homefield and for that I will forever be grateful; that and a couple of return TD’s. Besides the Cardinals game, though, did he have another 100-yard receiving game in his career?

Has Jerry drafted another receiver as high as the 2nd round since Kevin Williams in 1993? Speaks volumes.

by MadMick on Mar 24, 2010 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Actually, Williams never even had 1-100 yard game

He did have a 200+ yard game, though.

In 93-94, and in 96, he had several games where he caught 4-6 passes as the #3 receiver. He had a great game in the 1994 NFC Championship when the 49ers shut down Alvin Harper.

Granted, out of the four #3 WRs I listed, his career was the weakest.

by DavidH22 on Mar 24, 2010 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, the 200-plus yard game was the out-of-body experience I was referring to.

I’ve seen you reference the 9ers shutting down Harper before in that NFC Title game as if it’s this huge wart on Harper’s otherwise shockingly awesome postseason career with the Cowboys.

The thing is that unless I’m mistaken, for much of that game, Irvin was drawing double coverage by Eric Davis and Toi Cook. And that other 9ers corner, oh, what’s his name, he’s such a bum I can’t believe the 9ers put him on an island against Alvin Harper or that he shut down Harper. You know who I’m talking about?

by MadMick on Mar 24, 2010 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

Uh...Dionne Sannderz?

The fact is that Harper sucked in the 1994 NFC Championship game. He did do well against the same 49ers a few weeks earlier (3-136), so it wasn’t ridiculous to expect a little more than what he contributed, which was one catch for 14 yards on 3rd and 25 late in the game. It still hurts 15 years later.

by DavidH22 on Mar 24, 2010 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'd guess the 3 for 136 in the early November matchup is why Sanders was asked to shadow Harper.

Sanders sucked? I’ll admit I’ve never went back and watched the game but I’m having a hard time believing Harper was consistently beating Sanders without Aikman throwing his way if that was indeed the case.

Sure, Sanders pretty blatantly interfered against Irvin on that one infamous pass but that’s not enough evidence to just claim Harper was regularly beating him.

The real culprit was a dimwitted Barry Switzer failing to replace a hobbled Larry Allen along with his huckleberry antics before the half.

Kevin Williams might have been as good as the jive ass zombie Alvin Harper that returned for two games in 1999. I’ll give him that much and that’s it.

by MadMick on Mar 24, 2010 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think the Deion Sanders thing was sarcasm

Only explanation

You aint been around in awhile, maybe you haven't heard........I don't shine shoes no more

by markdamack on Mar 24, 2010 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

Antonio Bryant

Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 24, 2010 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

Why throw fuel on the RW fire?!

Why didn’t we see this statement instead?

[Miles Austin’s] performance really wasn’t anything to write home about … it looks like [Miles Austin’s] production in the red zone, from a purely numerical point of view, could be taken up by Crayton and Witten without the Cowboys missing a beat.

RW was better than Austin in the Red Zone, right? Why aren’t you suggesting Dallas would benefit from throwing to Crayton instead of Austin in the red zone? That’s what the numbers suggest, right? That our worst red zone WR is Austin.

by Fan in Thick and Thin on Mar 24, 2010 9:16 AM CDT reply actions  

I think this is wrong...

Roy may have more in the Red Zone, but how many of those passes to Miles in the red zone were actually catchable? Roy dropped vesy easy to catch balls while Miles caught the tough ones. In the red zone, he was almost always double teamed while Roy would normally be 1 on 1 down the stretch.

Roy’s numbers in the Redzone are also mediocre, and paired with the rest of his numbers, he is very mediocre and make his value and need to start diminish. Miles, on the other hand, is so explosive all of the field that his not so pretty numbers in the red zone are not a big problem.

by Static on Mar 24, 2010 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

You just made that up didn't you?

Have you gone back and looked at RW 15 red zone targets and Austin’s 20 red zone targets and determined which one where catchable and which ones weren’t?

If so please provide your data with the game, quarter, and time for each play you’ve graded so we can verify how the throws were categorized (as catachable/uncatchable is a subjective judgement). Keenly anticipating your data.

-Fan

by Fan in Thick and Thin on Mar 24, 2010 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

Seriously?

I’m a Cowboys fan, but I have no access to game film nor do I want to go searching and spend hours finding all of that. The best I can do is remember, and I’m pretty sure that at least 6 or so of those passes to Miles weren’t catchable. Thrown too high or too far away from him.

I will, however, look for some catches that Roy messed up.

by Static on Mar 25, 2010 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

I Remember

I remember several hitting Roy right in the hands in the end zone. I also remember one hitting him right in the visor, but I don’t think that one was in the red zone. I can distinctly remember a couple sailing over Austin’s head and a couple behind him in the end zone. Then there was the one where Austin cut inside and Romo threw outside into an INT inside the 10 yard line. To be fair, Williams caused at least one INT when the ball bounced off his hands. But, I think that one was just outside the red zone so it may not have counted. Either way, BOTH receivers need to keep working on their timing, route running and communication with Romo.

by lonewolfz28 on Mar 25, 2010 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

um, maybe i'm missing something here

but i think the article reads

Again, beware of the low sample sizes, but it looks like Roy Williams’ production in the red zone, from a purely numerical point of view, could be taken up by Crayton and Witten without the Cowboys missing a beat.

Where did you get Miles Austin from, or again, am I missing something?

You aint been around in awhile, maybe you haven't heard........I don't shine shoes no more

by markdamack on Mar 24, 2010 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

Disregard that

Look before you leap, I always say. Never do it, though. Probably my problem. I seen where you said “the statement SHOULD have read like this:”

My bad.

BUT

I still disagree, Maybe the stats say one way or the other, but other than blocking (and i’m being serious) I didn’t see one thing that roy was the best at in the WR crew. Not speed, catching, route running, red zone skills, any of it.

You aint been around in awhile, maybe you haven't heard........I don't shine shoes no more

by markdamack on Mar 24, 2010 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

double teams

Because no one is doubling Roy Williams anywhere, much less the red zone, where as miles gets doubled everywhere routinely.

by just4fun on Mar 24, 2010 2:55 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

No one needs RW

So what if Austin isn’t a huge RZ threat? We all know Witten is a monster and the stats show Crayton is a bigger threat than RW. We don’t need RW for anything, including RZ TDs

by Blue Eyed Devil on Mar 24, 2010 4:46 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I really struggle to understand how you drew your RW conclusions from the Red Zone data

Here are some alternative conclusions.

1. RW was twice a good as Miles Austin in the Red Zone

2. RW was 2nd best on the team in the Red Zone, 2nd only to Crayton who’s stat’s may have been skewed by a small sample size.

Do you agree or disagree those conclusions reflect the actual numbers?

by Fan in Thick and Thin on Mar 24, 2010 9:23 AM CDT reply actions  

Here's where I'm coming from

I think an argument could be made for both of your conclusions, but both arguments may have (statistically) crowned the one-eyed man king in the country of the blind.

Where I was coming from is an argument that I’ve seen repeatedly: that Roy Williams struggled for the most part, but at least he delivered in the endzone – or similar arguments to the same effect. The EPV numbers do not support this line of argument.

by One.Cool.Customer on Mar 24, 2010 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

OCC: You’re too good to allow your preconceived beliefs determine your conclusions

I think it’s awesome that you’re using statistics to understand Dallas better. It provides insight that can’t be captured by the ‘eye’ over the course of the season. But I get they feel that sometimes you let your preconceptions undermine your work.

For example, I don’t get how you concluded the EPV numbers don’t support that RW delivered in the Red Zone (unless I’m reading them wrong). Don’t they say RW had the 2nd best EPV numbers in the Red Zone. And RW’s Red Zone EPV was twice as good as Austin’s. If RW didn’t deliver, then Austin by definition was attrocious.

Frankly, I would have thought that the most interesting, unexpected, and previously unknown result is that Miles Austin, who is widely assumed to be Dallas’ best WR, was the least effective WR in the red zone. That’s really interesting and shows the power of EPV to shed light on football. However, instead of headlining with that, your headline was that RW wasn’t that good in the red zone. You’re better than that. What’s the point of applying statistical analysis if we’re going to ignore the new information it produces?

by Fan in Thick and Thin on Mar 24, 2010 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Au contraire my friend

I was actually not at all surprised by both Witten’s and Austin’s numbers considering they were sometimes double- and triple teamed in the redzone.

I found PC’s numbers highly surprising overall, and to be honest, saw my last glimmer of hope for RW decrease just a little further. I commented on both of PC and RW because of this.

But to each his own, I am often surprised by what others find in the data, and I believe your pov is just as valid as mine, I just came from a different direction.

by One.Cool.Customer on Mar 24, 2010 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

I am reading them right though?

RW did have the 2nd best red zone EPV, right?

But you’re applying some subjective adjustment factor for double and triple teaming that discounts RW EPV and improves Whitten’s and Austin’s?

You can understand how that’s not obvious from the raw data.

by Fan in Thick and Thin on Mar 24, 2010 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Isn't that what football is about though?

Certainly blogging?

Football isn’t like baseball, where you can just look at straight stats to see value.

An assortment and variety can maybe paint a small picture, but it won’t tell the entire story.

I can see what you’re talking about, if you look at the #’s and then you look down at the comment by OCC. I also take into account that the crowd that are generally reading these in depth (and fun) statistics, are probably a little more informed than your general cats.

Just my takes… I don’t have any factual data to back that up.

Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 24, 2010 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd add this with the disclaimer that it's a totally subjective (and potentially biased) observation

I suspect that RW was the primary option far more often than PC and hence would have a tougher comparison. I remember at least one of PC’s touchdowns (i.e. 25% of his total) came on a jawdropping Romo scramble where he clearly wasn’t the primary target.

I further suspect that PC would struggle as a primary option in the red zone and you’d see much worse numbers if he was the primary target.

by Fan in Thick and Thin on Mar 24, 2010 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

And I think you need to define "skewed by small sample size"

I mean RW was only targeted 4 more times than PC. So What draws the line for small sample size? Why can’t we say it was Skewed because of RW small sample size? Or that PC is obviously better because 4 less targets isn’t much of a difference when you are speaking about 52 chances. As much as I love OCC and these stat posts, i’ve always been one to believe you can twist stats to say almost whatever you want, now this EPV stuff, it’s pretty direct…almost as direct as it gets, but I think your argument with OCC just proves it can be twisted, and too many factors (most of which you are correct about, are subjective, but none the less are still factors) too really determine which is true. You are absolutely right, by judging off the EPV RW looks really great and sMiles looks horrible, but there are factors that go into it and you can’t 100 percent discount that.

You aint been around in awhile, maybe you haven't heard........I don't shine shoes no more

by markdamack on Mar 24, 2010 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're both on target

this EPV stuff has generated an enormous amount of data, the Excel file is 3 MB without any graphs or pictures – and that’s just the 16 regular season Cowboys games. In fact it’s way too much data to just run one analysis after another and see what pops out.

So what I have to do is form an hypothesis, and then see what the data says. The results then support my initial hypothesis or they don’t, in which case I have to rethink my initial assumptions (first though, I recheck the data to make sure it’s correct :-).

So there are three things going on: One, most of the time there is an underlying personal assumption going into each analysis. Two, my comments are my interpretation of the data, and they may be wrong or incomplete at times. Three, I have to define some boundary conditions (“twist” the data or slice and dice it). One example would be the totally gratuitous choice of ignoring interceptions for wide receivers – although I believe it is warranted.

In the end, of course a lot of points can be challenged and debated, but I would hope that most of the key takeaways feel ‘right’.

by One.Cool.Customer on Mar 24, 2010 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Do you still have Ogletree's plays with you?

I’d be interested to see how many of those plays were bubble screens.

Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 24, 2010 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

No can do

The NFL game books do not mention what types of passes were thrown to Ogletree. You’d have to look at tape for that. Or perhaps somebody else knows.

by One.Cool.Customer on Mar 24, 2010 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hmmm

That shouldn’t be too hard to do at least.

Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 24, 2010 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

The first thing we need to know is what's the average EPV / PA for NFL WRs

At this point, we only know how RW performed relative to the other players on the Cowboys. PC might have led the NFL in Red Zone EPV and RW might be 2nd in the NFL for all we know. We need to know the average red zone EPV / PA for WRs, as a basis for comparison, before we can start saying whether RW is above or below average in the red zone.

by Fan in Thick and Thin on Mar 24, 2010 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

yep

took me two foul full weeks to code the %§$!* data for 16 games, don’t really feel like coding 240 more games.

Although now that I know how to do it …

by One.Cool.Customer on Mar 24, 2010 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd help if you want.

email: faninthickandthin@gmail.com

I’m familiar with the Advanced Stats website so I can find the source data.

Are there any landmines I need to know about for coding the data?

by Fan in Thick and Thin on Mar 24, 2010 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

How'd you do it?

Did you pull the game logs off ESPN
Copy and paste the game logs into excel
Convert the down / distance columns from text → columns
And then use a lookup function to pull the EPVs

or is there a shorter way?

We’re talking 496 games right? (31 × 16)?

by Fan in Thick and Thin on Mar 24, 2010 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

that's about right

I’ll send you a mail with all the details, and it’s 256 games a season (32*16/2) less the 16 Cowboys games.

by One.Cool.Customer on Mar 24, 2010 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

holy smokes its a pain to clean the down / distance info to make it usable.

You guys have no idea how much work OCC must have put into this.

Wow. Just Wow.

You deserve a pat of the back and big thanks.

by Fan in Thick and Thin on Mar 24, 2010 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

OCC rocks!

to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''

by APerfectStar on Mar 27, 2010 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Crayton

I would be curious to see the EPV numbers for the period when Crayton was the no. 2 receiver versus the numbers after Austin’s emergence (where Crayton returned to no. 3). I presume his numbers were better out of the slot.

OCC – I find it interesting that you have a friend named M. Excel – I have a mortal enemy by thresame name.

by doomsdayreturns on Mar 24, 2010 10:17 AM CDT reply actions  

Ouch!

that was going to be a key piece of Part III of this post. Without giving too much away, and I’ve still got to dig into the numbers a little more, but PC’s EVP per pass attempt tripled (!) in games 6-16 vs. games 1-5.

Nice catch.

by One.Cool.Customer on Mar 24, 2010 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think Crayton...

is a guy with the savvy and experience to smoke 3rd string cornerbacks but just doesn’t have the physical tools to line up against a team’s every-down cornerback.

Every team has the same drop off between their Mike Jenkins and their Orlando Scandirck. There’s always a big step down between your #2 and #3 cornerback on the depth cart.

Crayton doesn’t have the physical gifts of an Andre Johnson or the talent of a Miles Austin, but he is good in his own right, very savvy, and very experienced. He can fake out a cornerback, keep a play alive, or find that hole in the zone defense. And let’s not forget, at this point Crayton has been catching balls from Romo for WAY LONGER than any other reciever. Crayton is “on the same page” as Romo, there’s a reason he worked to keep that TD play alive in the red zone against Atlanta when the other recievers stopped. Crayton was catching balls with Romo when Austin was on the practice squad, Roy was in Detroit, and Ogletree was at his highschool prom.

by Blue Eyed Devil on Mar 25, 2010 1:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

Word up.

That fancy bum Alvin Harper is a chump despite all his huge playoff numbers and big plays for the Cowboys. Crayton with a hundredth of the talent of Harper has made a tenth of the plays he ever did. Very impressive.

If Harper had Crayton’s work ethic he’d be a Hall Of Famer; which is why I’m so so bummed out that Crayton had bad luck and dropped that pass against the Giants whereas Harper had that sweet, sweet luck to catch that quick slant against the 9ers. How lucky was it? Well, it not only saved Harper but it more less turned that pedestrian chump Troy Aikman into a Hall Of Famer as well. Without Alvin Harper making all those lucky catches in the postseason, Troy Aikman would’ve been just as pedestrian as Sean Salisbury. Right?

by MadMick on Mar 25, 2010 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

For the record, I don't have anything against Crayton.

But demeaning Harper or Aikman isn’t going to put any rings on Crayton or Romo’s fingers.

by MadMick on Mar 25, 2010 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

what's your hangup on speed

No all good receivers are super fast, as a matter of fact, many receivers in the HOF weren’t any faster or quicker than Crayton.

It’s about route running and catching the ball, that’s what makes a good slot receiver.

In Romo we Trust

by Terry on Mar 26, 2010 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Speed is a big part of being a good WR...Crayton doesnt have that....

He is decent for #3, but if we are going to improve as an offense we need an upgrade. We are limited what we can do with him. Add a D. Jackson, Percey Harvin type player in the slot and this offense would be on a whole different level.

"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham

by Boyzfan94 on Mar 27, 2010 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

He's better than decent

You act as if he’s running with cement shoes, the guy looks fast enough. You don’t put a guy with no speed at WR/PR. The fact that he puts up good stats is enough for most people. How much more production do you think you can squeeze out of your #3 WR and #4 receiving target?

The guy who doesn’t belong, or at least hasn’t come through is RW. The team needs to upgrade the #2 WR, not worry about the #3 slot WR.

to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''

by APerfectStar on Mar 27, 2010 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

I remember

Crayton running away from a couple Safeties and CB’s this season. I believe once was during the Tampa game. Another was during one of his punt returns for TD’s. How much more speed do you really need?

Yeah, more speed is always nice. But, there are bigger holes to fill and better positions to upgrade right now. Slot receiver is actually quite low since we already have Ogletree, Hurd, Holley, Ryan and Johnson in camp. Ryan was a track star in college and returned a couple kickoffs for TD’s in the CFL. In other words, he’s FAST.

What does Crayton have that has relegated these others to the bench so far? Enough speed to be effective, very good route running, good report with his QB and a lot more savvy.

Could one of these five guys step up and supplant Crayton? Time will tell. At least we have viable options. That’s more than I can currently say for our o-line depth, interior d-line depth and defensive backfield depth.

Rabid and luvin' it

by lonewolfz28 on Mar 27, 2010 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well said

this is going verbatim into the next post

by One.Cool.Customer on Mar 25, 2010 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

BWAHAHAHA

I was skimming over the Iggles blog and Bi-Dawk posted that he heard the Rams gave the first pick of the second round for McScabb!!

I knew it was crap because who in their right mind would give essentially a first rounder for a guy that needs a cutoff man to hit a receiver?

Watching the comments was like watching a train wreck. I just couldn’t take my eyes off it.

Ich bin ein Berliner--JFK

by HudBaby on Mar 24, 2010 12:31 PM CDT reply actions  

"needs a cutoff man to hit a receiver"

Wow. That made my day. That was my pick-me-up. That was the little bit of inspiration and fun I needed today.

I’m still laughing.

Bravo good sir.

by jazzbo251 on Mar 24, 2010 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

BTW good write-up OCC

RW is getting his fair share of hate, but at least he has those TD numbers.
Clearly that is what has changed for WItten … RW showed up and took all his TDs away.

Now only if RW could make an effort to catch ALL balls and not just the red zone ones.

by fuji1232 on Mar 24, 2010 1:52 PM CDT reply actions  

I honestly don't know if there are just a ton of slot receivers that are that much better.

I don’t have the stats to prove it, but off the top of my head I can’t think of just a ton.

Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 24, 2010 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree

Crayton is definitely one of the best 3rd or slot receivers in the league, no question about it.

In Romo we Trust

by Terry on Mar 24, 2010 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Just off the top of my head...

Harvin,Welker,Breaston, and one or two more might be better but that’s not that much.

Harvin was pretty impressive. He was one of the best slot WR’s in the NFL last year.

Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 24, 2010 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

throw in Garcion, Gonzo..take your pick... :)

Meachem or Moore in NO..

"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham

by Boyzfan94 on Mar 25, 2010 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

Garcon was the 2nd receiver

and Gonzalez was never a better slot guy then Crayton…

Ever…ever….ever.

You can argue it, but the Crayton is better in every statistical category.

Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 25, 2010 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Really....your going to flaunt numbers knowing Gonzo was injured all year and Crayton wasnt...

good way to make a point….

like I told you before Gonzo has only been in the league 3 seasons, injured most of 2009 minus one game.

Gonzalez was the #2 prior to him being injured. Wayne and Gonzales are the 1 and 2 on that team. I will admitt with the emergence of Garcon there will be a battle for the #2 spot in training camp.

Either way they have speed and talent from the 1 through 4 positions on that team. Something Ive been preaching we need. Its a passing league and speed not only from the top two guys is needed, but the 3rd and 4th WRs also. Just look at the top teams this year and you get the idea.

"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham

by Boyzfan94 on Mar 26, 2010 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Im suppose to get all kiddy over 37 Rec for 622 yds...Really?

Harvin had 60 Rec for 790 yds and thats not even counting what he brings to STs…

"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham

by Boyzfan94 on Mar 27, 2010 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hmmm

Let’s see:
Crayton 622/37 = 16.81 yards per catch
Harvin 790/60 = 13.17 yards per catch

Yup Harvin was clearly better. /end sarcasm.

Crayton returned two punts for TD’s…tied with DeSean Jackson for 1st in the NFL last season.

Rabid and luvin' it

by lonewolfz28 on Mar 27, 2010 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Gonzo isn't even the #3 WR now

He’s behind Wayne, Garcon, and Collie. The Colts are going to use 4 wide sets to try and get him on the field.

to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''

by APerfectStar on Mar 27, 2010 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Welker is pretty much a #2 receiver

and Breaston ’s best seasons were in a pass-happy pass early and often offense. Just not the same.

by DavidH22 on Mar 25, 2010 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Williams is basically a special teams player. The only time he makes an impact(if that’s what you want to call it) is in the red zone and blocking downfield for someone with talent. He should have been signed to league minimum with 45 mil worth of incentives.

by BrettWreck on Mar 24, 2010 2:55 PM CDT reply actions  

According to Deion...

they were strongly considering releasing him after the ’08 season because he had been such a poor performer – until the phone rang…

by Blue Eyed Devil on Mar 25, 2010 1:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

I will certainly say that Crayton came away from these numbers looking much better

than I thought he would. I have been relatively critical of him since I believe we need a quicker slot receiver that can be more of a deep threat and also a better returner (I know Crayton returned two punts this year, but I think the eye test shows pretty well that that spot can be improved upon).

Even in the face of these stats though, I still think his spot can be improved upon (hence my calls for drafting a WR in the draft). Crayton, much like Hurd, has hit his ceiling in the NFL in my opinion and I think the Cowboys could definitely stand to gain by bringing in a guy that has a higher and untouched ceiling as a potential starting WR/PR.

If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.

by Cowboyfan729 on Mar 24, 2010 6:01 PM CDT reply actions  

OCC...

you should do a special edition trolling the boards for the draft.

Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 24, 2010 8:17 PM CDT reply actions  

Jerry is delusional

Has anybody read his comments re: RW to Mosley?
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/12268/jerry-unplugged-is-felix-starting
(skip down to the RW section).

One highlight:

He later compared Williams to Terrell Owens in terms of being a constant threat. And he actually said that other teams have to pay a lot of attention to the former Lions wide receiver. I questioned this statement, asking Jones why he thought opposing teams would worry about a wide receiver who isn’t a focal point of the offense.

“They respect him,” Jones said in reference to how teams respond to Williams. “They know Roy Williams as well as we do.”

by JimmyJohnson on Mar 24, 2010 8:30 PM CDT reply actions  

Let's take a moment to remember this time last year
Jones has talked about Austin’s potential in the past, but on Tuesday he indicated that the undrafted wide receiver was already in T.O.’s league.

“We know this, if [Austin] is close, then you’re ahead of the game simply because of where they are in their careers,” said Jones.

I then asked Jones if he truly thought Austin could be as good as T.O., which quite honestly, sounded absurd to me.

“I certainly think he has a chance to be or I would’ve never released Terrell,” said the owner.

This was a whole new angle for Jones. So far, we’d heard him talk about how Williams was poised to have a breakout season once he had an entire offseason with the club. Now, he apparently thinks Miles Austin is a Pro Bowler in waiting.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/1625/jerry-expresses-love-for-miles-austin

Mosley’s shown himself to be an inept football analyst.

by Fan in Thick and Thin on Mar 24, 2010 11:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

BTW, here's what a real football analyst said about Austin last year before the season.
An undrafted free agent out of Monmouth whom the Cowboys have been nurturing for three years, Austin hopes to follow in the footsteps of street-free-agents-turned-starters like Drew Bennett and Rod Smith. In limited time over the past two years, Austin’s numbers have been off the charts: 18 catches on 33 attempts for 354 yards, three touchdowns and a defense-adjusted value over average (DVOA) rating approaching 40 percent. Any time you’re averaging nearly 20 yards per catch, you’re doing something right.

The Cowboys didn’t bother to replace Terrell Owens this offseason, because they knew the job would be in good hands with Austin.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/news/story?id=4402482

Funny how at the same time, one analyst was saying Austin could replace TO while Mosley was saying that proposition was absurd. As I said, Mosely is an inept analyst.

by Fan in Thick and Thin on Mar 25, 2010 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

He's not an analyst anyways...

He’s a blogger/reporter.

There are only a few real analysts that report on ESPN. I don’t like Jaws, but I consider him an analyst. Trent Dilfer is an analyst.

Mosley has to fill space because ESPN pays him too.

Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.

by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 25, 2010 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

Jerry

Is doubling down on Roy. Jerry is putting his pride before a superbowl. He can’t be wrong on this trade, he just can’t. He gave up a 1st, 3rd, and 5th for a garbage player. He won’t admit that. He can’t admit that.

Jerry is going to give Roy 5 more games. If Roy will sucks 5 games into the ‘10 season you’re going to be seeing Ogletree in more and more just like Felix Jones over Marion Barber last season. By the playoffs it’ll be the Tree show and RW will only be in on the downfield blocking plays.

by Blue Eyed Devil on Mar 25, 2010 1:01 AM CDT reply actions  

I agree, Jones will give RW every oppourtunity

to secure the #2 slot this summer and into the season. If he continues to fail, Olgetree replaces him in the starting lineup.

In Romo we Trust

by Terry on Mar 25, 2010 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

RW

he clearly can do a lot more then he did last year. So its not unreasonable to expect much better numbers this year. Redball though has to taylor his offense to take advantage of the strenghts of his various players, which is not what always happens (that toss to MB will be branded on my brain for all time).

by burmafrd1944 on Mar 25, 2010 8:14 AM CDT reply actions  

In defense of Roy Williams.

He was without question the best player on the Lions until they drafted Johnson. I know you’ll all just say that it was just the Lions. But it is very strange to see a guy go from the best player on a team, someone the opposing defenses had to scheme against, to the miserable player we’ve seen in the last year and a half.

That’s why I’m still willing to give him one more year. There is a lot of talent there. Now if he’s still playing at this same level at the midpoint of next season, yes you have to make a change, but I don’t want to give up on him now.

by Arson55 on Mar 25, 2010 4:38 PM CDT reply actions  

Great write-up

Your columns are quickly becoming my favorite part of BTB.

by MeanMr.Mustard on Mar 28, 2010 1:30 PM CDT reply actions  

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