NFL Free Agency '10, Evening Snack: Rolle, Gaither and Bethea Assessed
by Rafael Vela on Mar 5, 2010 9:32 PM CST
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The Giants make the division's first big splash, signing S Antrel Rolle to a five year, $37.5 M deal, with $15 M guaranteed. This makes him the highest paid safety in league history. (Via Adam Schefter on Twitter)
-- The Redskins missed on OT Chad Clifton, who re-signed with the Packers, for 3 years at $20 M.
I just got off the phone with K.C. Joyner and got his take on a couple of players of possible interest, one the fans have isolated, OT Jared Gaither, and another whom Dallas is apparently tracking -- Colts S Antoine Bethea. (Scroll down in the link.)
Joyner told me that Ravens LT Jared Gaither grades out as a good pass blocking, but so-so run blocker. His win percentages on play run behind him has been in the low 80s, a good, but not great number. "He'll just miss on run blocks, but he's a solid pass protector."
Getting back to Dallas, does this sound like a significant upgrade over Doug Free? And would this justify burning the first rounder it would take to get him? I asked Joyner if he saw Gaither as demonstrably better than a top OT prospect like Maryland's Bruce Campbell, who Joyner profiled for ESPN Insider, and he said no. "They're different players. Campbell is a better run blocker and Gaither a better pass blocker, but I'd say they're about the same. I will say that Gaither does fit the Dallas profile, in that their linemen are better pass blockers than they are run blockers."
A Bethea in the Hand vs. a Thomas in the Bush?
Turning to Bethea, he thinks he's one of the better coverage safeties in the league, but wondered if he fits the style of defense Wade Phillips plays. He has excelled in the Colts defense and he was outstanding in coverage, but he rarely plays down in the box, though he started there for Indy but moved to coverage safety in '07.
I asked why the move was made and was told, "it's probably a better fit for his skills. He had safety coverage YPAs in the low 5s, which means he didn't just play well in the Colts scheme, he excelled. Now, players who come from their system and move to other teams sometimes go up a bit, cause they play more man, but even if you added a yard or yard and a half to his numbers in Dallas' scheme, you still have a good player and one who upgrades their secondary.
He told me he would have rated Antrel Rolle slightly above Bethea, in that he's a better ballhawk, though not as good in coverage as Bethea. Of course, dollar amounts were not part of our discussion. Adjust accordingly.
Programming update: I'm going to slide the C profile until Monday, to keep free agency updates coming. Mock 3.0 will go up tomorrow morning as scheduled.
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Rolle the highest paid safety in league history?
I think the Giants significantly overpaid there.
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
Do you think we overpaid Leonard Davis?
Would you do it again?
I say yes and yes. Sometimes you have to overpay to some degree to get the best player available at a position.
If Brad Pitt is playing Beane who do you want playing you?
JD: Eddie Guardado.
by GhettoBear04 on Mar 6, 2010 12:11 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Leonard Davis has measurable attributes that make him a high guarantee to return the investmenton him
Rolle, his attributes and his position do not offer that security
by AustonianAggie on Mar 6, 2010 1:28 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, but...
Antrelle Rolle isn’t even in the conversation for best safety in football, he’s more in the “better than Ken Hamlin” conversatiom. Leonard Davis is able to move double teams, and block pass rushers. Antrelle Role is barely able to cover above average tight ends. I’m glad that this happened, smart move by JJ for not overpaying fo him.
I think peoples get caught up in this “highest paid safety” business. Obviously, if Rolle was on the market with every NFL safety in the league, he’s not the best (Reed, Polamalu…others).
But he’s the best available S on the market, in terms of athleticism, age and there’s still potential for him to get better, unlike someone like Darren Sharper, who’s more of a 1-2 year stopgap most likely.
He’s getting #15 mill guaranteed..which will be less then someone like say…Eric Berry will get.
Its really only overpaying if you look at it in a certain way (..like a rival fan…). In terms of need and how badly the Giants needed a safety, no its just right.
Having him and Kenny Phillips (at least KP playing limited time as he comes back..all I’m hoping for) could be very good.
I doubt they’re done with the safety spot, given KP’s injury. I think they need to treat him as a backup and find a starter.
Earl Thomas is still in play for the Giants 1st rounder…
Master of the squeegee
All I gots to say is
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
BRING THE LULZ HERE
I'm not too keen on any of the FA's out there.
I am intrigued by possible trades though. And our chances of landing Earl Thomas just went up.
When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather -- not screaming like the passengers in his car.
The only way we're getting Thomas is if we trade up.
No way in Hell he is there at 27. We really need to take a good look at O.J. Atogwe. The Rams only put the right of first refusal on him, which means all we have to do is outbid them and he’s ours. Don’t even have to give up a draft pick. There’s Bethea too, but I am completely against the idea of giving up a first rounder for him.
Ready for some baseball.
I'm glad you have this all figured out.
There is certainly a chance he will be there at 27.
When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather -- not screaming like the passengers in his car.
Somebody is gonna drop
And it’s usually safeties.
When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather -- not screaming like the passengers in his car.
Maybe...
Everyone needs a few things though, Philly could use a LB or DE.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 5, 2010 10:12 PM CST up reply actions
The 2nd and 3rd rated safeties usually go in the top of the 2nd round.
I understand your point though. He’s a great talent. Enticing because he’s a very talented cover safety. Philly needs LB and DL help more than safety. Honestly, the NFL could be totally turned upside down by the time the draft comes around. This is going to be an interesting month.
When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather -- not screaming like the passengers in his car.
No doubt.
There will be three safeties taken in the first round this year though, I would pretty much put anything on that. Berry will go in the top 5-6 picks, Al Davis will probably take Taylor Mays, and the farthest I see Thomas making it is Philly, if he even makes it that far. The Steelers could possibly be in the market for a FS if Ryan Clark leaves, and so could a couple of other teams. I think if anybody falls to us it will be Mays. I will be SHOCKED if by some act of God Earl Thomas falls to us at 27. Again, I think trading up for him could be a possibility, but I have a hard time seeing him fall that far. It will be an interesting month though, for sure.
Ready for some baseball.
If Pitt takes him then Iupati, my original favorite pick, falls.
That would be even better, but no, Pittsburgh is likely to take Iupati. We’ll get a great talent at 27, and I still say it could be Thomas.
When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather -- not screaming like the passengers in his car.
Really can't go wrong either way there though.
If the Cowboys end up with either one of those guys in the first round I’ll be happy.
Ready for some baseball.
Agreed. Damn I would just love to get either one of those guys.
When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather -- not screaming like the passengers in his car.
I really don't care how they do it, honestly.
Trades, free agents, draft picks, whatever. They need to upgrade the O-line and FS, that’s the bottom line. I’m down for whatever at this point, as long as both of those areas get addressed and upgraded.
Ready for some baseball.
There's always value to be found. Someone always drops.
In no mock draft 2 years ago does Mike Jenkins fall to us. Most drafts forecasted him in the top 15 players taken.
The beauty for the Cowboys is that we don’t have any “desperate” needs and can comfortably take the best player available. This draft is solid enough that we will get “quality” when we pick. Although, I suspect we will trade down for future picks.
Trading down.
That’s one thing I don’t want to do. I will be so mad if that happens.
Ready for some baseball.
If someone gives up their next year's 1st and throws in a 2nd rounder for this year
…you wouldn’t take it and be happy? You trade down to get value, not just for sh*ts and giggles. If a player you really want is there when you pick, clearly you don’t trade down.
I don't want to trade out of the first round.
That probably means that one of OT or FS didn’t get addressed early or with one of the top guys available at that position, and that will aggravate me.
I understand why we would do it, but I don’t want to. I think that first rounder is too useful this year.
Ready for some baseball.
But you are assuming a top OT or FS will be available when we pick at 27?
I think there will likely be a good OT or FS when we pick based on current mocks, but what happens if the players we want aren’t there? Not trading down out of principle makes little sense. It’s about maximizing opportunities.
Well then if that happens
Then it either means we addressed one of those two things in FA, or it means we dropped the ball somewhere. Hopefully the former. I don’t know, I guess it’s too early to say either way, I just don’t like the idea. That first round pick is going to have value, whether we use it in the draft, in a trade, or to sign a RFA I think it has too much value to trade it for picks. I see what you’re saying though.
Ready for some baseball.
Yeah, you're right that it's too early to say for certain how things play out.
I just want to maximize value, and I like how we’ve been flexible these past few years. Trade down if that gets you better value or trade up if someone of high value unexpectedly drops. To say we should pick in the first round, regardless, is a bit drastic.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that at all.
I’m not opposed to getting rid of our first rounder. I don’t think we have to necessarily pick in the first. I would be all for giving that pick up for say, Jared Gaither. Being that I think we need to take an OT with our first pick (again, assuming the one we want or one that we think could challenge for a starting job in the next year or so) and he would fill a need and be an upgrade. I just don’t like the idea of trading the pick in order to move down in the draft, particularly because I think we need to address OT early, and if we trade down then there’s a pretty good chance that means we didn’t address OT early. Whether it was in the draft, through trade, or through a RFA signing like Gaither, I don’t see how we’re going to be able to significantly upgrade that position without a first rounder. Make sense?
Ready for some baseball.
I think you're linking the need to get an OT and a first round pick
as an absolute. I don’t think it’s that black and white. I agree that if a good OT is available when we pick at 27, then that should be our pick and we should pull the trigger. I’m just leaving the possibility open that it may be prudent to trade down if there isn’t a value equivalent player available at 27. Locking ourselves in at 27, which is what I believe I’m reading from you, is not the approach we should take. I can see a few scenarios where it would be prudent to trade down…that’s what I’m trying to say. Value = Get great players at a low price/pick. I think in recent years, that’s been our policy and it has built a pretty good team.
I'm not saying we should lock ourselves in at 27.
I’m saying I think we should handle it like this, and in this order:
1. Sign a proven LT that has had a first round tender placed on him. Mainly, I think we should sign Jared Gaither. He’s better than anybody who is going to be in our range when we draft.
2. Use the pick to try to trade for a proven LT.
3. Try to move up in the draft to get in range of one of the better OT’s that will be available in the first round.
4. See what’s available at 27 when we pick, and if somebody like Mike Iupati or Earl Thomas happens to be there then spend the pick.
5. Trade down if 1-4 don’t happen.
Trading down would pretty much be my last resort. You’re right though, I do think having that first rounder and finding a LT to replace Flozell Adams goes hand in hand, because the top LT’s that are available usually come with a steep price such as a first rounder. I don’t think Doug Free is the guy, but that’s a whole other discussion. If you want to see my thoughts on that one scroll down.
Ready for some baseball.
i hope it happens
trading down opens us up to getting nate allen, and possibly a falling pouency.
rather have those two solid picks than a combo of solid and longshot.
Rolle vs Sensabaugh
In 2009, Sensabaugh had 66 tackles, Rolle had 72. But Rolle had 4 times as many picks (4 to 1). The good thing is that Sensabaugh had the highest tackle count outside of the front seven. James had 113; Brooking had 106 and Spencer had 67. This according to DC.com Now that’s a defense I can believe in.
Sensi was also playing in a cast
he had a couple of would be picks if not for the cast.
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
I like senseabaugh but so far him an Hamlin seem to me awfully similar. Niether player is hurting the team but either spot can be upgraded at high grade cost.
Thing is we keep saying Sensabaugh would of caught more but in the end he only caught one. One is a very small sample; that one could be the norm. He’s one away from having an alarming Zero.
by AustonianAggie on Mar 5, 2010 10:38 PM CST up reply actions
Your numbers are your numbers
I agree that his one pick was just one pick. But when you compare him to Rolle’s numbers in 2009, it’s not very different especially for the price bigblue paid for Rolle. I think we’re very spoiled as Cowboys fans based on our championship history. But this defense was 2nd in point’s allowed last year based on defensive skill and the kicking game so I think we’re going in the right direction. We should focus more on ways to score more points. Remember, there’s a few young defensive players we already have that were injured last year. They could be the answer.
Interesting points, and I agree the safeties could be left alone and Dallas would still have a top defense. I am looking for ways to have the unit carry the team to a superbowl on its own though.
A star safety would, but again, stars don’t often fall to pick 27
On scoring more, Golden Tate, or another exciting WR would help, or helping the blocking.
Dallas’ offense is close to be unstoppable, I don’t fully get why they don’t score reliably. If the management figures it out maybe the offense could carry the team to the superbowl
by AustonianAggie on Mar 5, 2010 11:02 PM CST up reply actions
Dallas' O is nowhere near being unstoppable, and they do not score reliably because they cannot run block
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
Running and Redzone TE play
I agree run blocking and TE play in the redzone could be better. All else being equal, if Witten had 6 or 7 TD’s last year instead of 1, the boys may have had homefield throughout the playoffs. Play calling in that area should improve…I hope
True, Roy should line up at FB and just blast holes opens like Moose Johnston used to do
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
That's the way the number should stack up for a quality 3-4
the ILBs getting most of the tackles. If Spencer is on par with the SS then the run defense is doing its job.
Gaither for a first
and Bethea for a second
We don’t need no stinking draft.
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
Hmmm
I asked Joyner the same question and he said Bethea.
What about...
The St.Louie safety for Hamlin and a 2nd or even a 3rd considering he’s right of first refusal right? Hamlins contract is bigger than one would like but they can afford the hit this coming year obviously an if he didn’t pan out as expected they could cut him for what I’d imagine would be a much less cap hit or restructure or what ever they deem fit. Possibly?
Michael Irvin to Keyshawn Johnson "I know where me and Rice belong on the top ten receivers of all time list, but who do you have in the bottom 8?"
by markdamack on Mar 6, 2010 12:15 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
well most of hamlins money has been paid out
he only has one mil of guaranteed cash left, so essentially we would cut 4.5 mil of spending this year because he will make 5.5 this year if we keep him.
but if there are no takers can they not trade him for a second?
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
That's the thing though, I think that's why they put the first round tender on him in the first place.
It’s because they don’t want there to be any takers, and they’re hoping that nobody bites on a first round tender.
Ready for some baseball.
why would they trade him if they don't want to?
I doubt they want to let him go. He’s the centerfielder, and plays very, very well behind some very young CBs.
The Colts want to keep Bethea
if he left they wouldn’t have a FS. Sanders can play it but he’s better as the box guy. Bullitt is a SS. Silva isn’t even a good cover guy for a SS.
Luck is probability taken personally, clutch is probability attributed to individuals.
by shake n bake on Mar 5, 2010 11:33 PM CST up reply actions
Gaither
He still looks like the best option if they want a LT. He’s already a good to very good pass blocker, he’s mammoth, he’s still so young it’s like getting a rookie, except he’s already proven he can do the job.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Mar 5, 2010 11:16 PM CST up reply actions
eh is it worth giving up the rush of a draft pick?
if you trust your scouting you’re not worried about him being able doing it – trusting scouting at some point must eliminate contingency plans
He’s also 2nd best on his own team, and yet a good player? Maybe not an personality they like
by AustonianAggie on Mar 5, 2010 11:19 PM CST up reply actions
he’s second best because the perception is Oher is replacing him
by AustonianAggie on Mar 5, 2010 11:26 PM CST up reply actions
Correct
And when his current contract is up, Gaither will be looking for LT money while only playing RT for them, and the Ravens will lose him anyway and get nothing in return. By trading him now, they at still get compensation.
It’s not a knock on Gaither that Oher is better. The Ravens are one of the best drafting teams in the NFL.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Mar 5, 2010 11:30 PM CST up reply actions
On Dallas’ end I’d like to see Doug Free start; I think he’ll do it and it’d take Willie Roaf in his prime for me to give him up
by AustonianAggie on Mar 5, 2010 11:32 PM CST up reply actions
Does Free have to play LT though?
He played very well at RT.
Personally I agree with you that he looks like he could play LT, and Dallas could keep the pick and take the BPA. But if they want the sure thing at LT, I’d say pull the trigger on Gaither.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Mar 5, 2010 11:36 PM CST up reply actions
I see Gaither as mentally weak and a liability in clutch games, so I may be biased unfoundedly.
Contracts are based on potential so its interesting to consider a man who’s abilities are known. The lack of mystery surrounding his play alone makes him anticipatable and a liability.
I don’t like him because he’s an investment in the present and not the future.
by AustonianAggie on Mar 5, 2010 11:42 PM CST up reply actions
You mean his penalties
That is true, he had his share. But still a young guy, and very good at pass protection. The reviews I read on him all include the fact that he still has upside. I’d view him as a definite long term investment.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Mar 5, 2010 11:54 PM CST up reply actions
true – and mentally weak is hyperbole.
But I think Free is ready, so taking that we already have our LT. We are looking for a RT now. If Free is not our LT, Flozel will stay until we draft someone to play LT in the first round. He could be 40 by then
by AustonianAggie on Mar 5, 2010 11:59 PM CST up reply actions
Maybe, how old was Jackie Slater when he retired
I think there’s a good chance this year they finally either put Free in, or bring in Flo’s replacement (a high draft pick or Gaither).
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Mar 6, 2010 12:10 AM CST up reply actions
I'm not against trading for Gaither...
I just don’t want Dallas to have to give up a 1st.
Like I would be down with a package like a 2nd, next year something and a player, or something like that. I’d feel damned good about that.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 5, 2010 11:34 PM CST up reply actions
He's a RFA...
He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. - Thomas Jefferson
I know...
but Dallas could still make a trade offer, correct?
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 5, 2010 11:38 PM CST up reply actions
yep
that could be one of the only ways they get a developmental safety and improved line play. find a way to sign gaither for their 2nd and use the first on the best available safety
that or find a good C/G with a 2nd round tender and convince Flo to play RT or backup both positions while we see what free can do at LT
Or they could use the first rounder on Gaither
and go sign O.J. Atogwe to play FS. They could do that, right?
Ready for some baseball.
if you believe OJ is an upgrade but...
i am not entirely sold on that. I would be if he was at least a year younger than hamlin but they are the same age.
Atogwe would definitely be an upgrade over Hamlin.
Their career stats agree too. Hamlin sucks. Atogwe has been more disruptive in his career than Hamlin has and Hamlin has played for two years longer. Not to mention Atogwe has been playing for the Rams. Didn’t know about the age though, I thought he was younger than that. Still, he’ll only be 29 when the season starts and this will only be his 6th year in the league, so he’ll still be in his prime depending on how long the contract was for.
Ready for some baseball.
IDN
just turned 29 myself and i am starting to slow down so the downside of his prime might be more like it. a 2 or 3 year deal would work IMO but nothing longer.
I agree.
For sure the backside of his prime. I would say no longer than 3 or 4 years. But depending on the money the Rams might decide to match that, who knows. I think we could pull it off without breaking the bank too bad.
Ready for some baseball.
the good news is that hamlin is cuttable
he has 4.5 mil worth of bonuses left and is slated to make 5.5. we might be able to get OJ for 5.5 a year so long as other safeties get signed before him and set the market a little low. that might be a possibility. OJ could be the odd man out much like Sensi last year
Agree
Gaither for a package of pick or picks next year and something from our defensive line this year. Preserve this year’s draft positions.
i would not mind having indy's first
lots of possibilities with that pick, especially if it means we have bethea
We could have had Oher
ugh. I hate you so much Roy Williams. Why is it every year I’m cursing the name Roy Williams. God has a sick sense of humor.
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
Yes, it's ironic
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Mar 5, 2010 11:31 PM CST up reply actions
as much as i would like to see Bethea in a Cowboys helmet
i would hate missing out on the first round. the boys would have to do something with Hamlin as well. simply cutting him is such a waste. he go to the colts in a trade for Bethea. Hamlin and our first, for Bethea and their second. I could live with that.
What has Joyner said about Doug Free Raf?
I don’t really want to trade a first for either one of them honestly.
Looking up Bethea, I do think it’s funny that he comes in at 5 foot 11 and 203, 1 inch and 8 lbs. ober Earl Thomas who is supposedly “too small and fragile to play against the run” some bloggers say.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 5, 2010 10:21 PM CST reply actions
+1. We need to keep our 1st and 2nd round picks.
I think Jerry is just going through withdraws. He wants to be in there so bad signing big name players, but he has to play it cool like he did last year. The Cowboys are only a couple of players away, and those premium draft picks are our best move. If anything, trade one of our players for a 2nd round pick.
When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather -- not screaming like the passengers in his car.
well i do not know about that
lets not underrate our players too much. I support keeping our picks, but lets make sure if our players go it meets two criteria. first it does not put us in a bind at that position and second we dont get lowballed. right now is not the time to fall in love with picks
If Cincy comes calling about Bennett for a 2nd rounder again
I hope we pull the trigger without even thinking twice about it.
Ready for some baseball.
i agree with that but it passes both test
worth it and does not put us in a bind. the same can be said for DE but not for safety unless another (like gaither is signed)
We didn't have a 1st or 2nd rounder last year. How'd that work out for us?
Besides Bennett, the Choice would bring great value. And as I’ve pointed out in previous threads, I’d actually rather trade Barber and get Choice in the rotation.
When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather -- not screaming like the passengers in his car.
I so wish the Cowboys could move Barber
Choice/Jones would be a great running game. Choice deserves more touches.
everyone would perfer that
but you cant get value for barber, his contract and age prohibit. choice is the only tradeable option
I would have to agree
with this statement, keep those premium picks. lol Jerry going through withdrawal, to funny. I could see Jerry asking his son, please can i get some..lol
"Coaching is getting men to do what they do not want to do, in order to get them to achieve what they want to achieve." --Tom Landry
Wow Nate Jones signed a 4 year 13.5 million dollar contract with the Broncos
I thought he would have been out of the league by now… good for him.
http://www.kffl.com/player/10063/nfl
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
I thought the same thing.
He’ll never be a star but he is just talented enough to have a role in this league.
I remember hearing a Lunchbreak one day talk about how Nate Jones knew his role perfectly well. He knew he wasn’t ever going to be a superstar in the league but busted his ass to at least be on a team.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 5, 2010 11:04 PM CST up reply actions
that seems like something Bill Parcels coached to many of his players – how to have careers
not to say other coaches don’t, Bill Parcels just made a point to tell the press that he did that
by AustonianAggie on Mar 5, 2010 11:07 PM CST up reply actions
Kinda interesting that other teams value the Cowboy's castoffs...
while ’Boys fans complain about the guys we have on our roster. Relatively speaking, we got it better than most, in fact name 2 other teams that have as complete a roster.
Cowboys | May discuss releasing Adams
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Fri, 05 Mar 2010 16:12:42 -0800
Clarence E. Hill Jr., of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, reports Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones has acknowledged that the team will discuss releasing OT Flozell Adams because of his age, injury history and contract status.
Read more: http://www.kffl.com/hotw/NFL?page=1#ixzz0hMvCRvz7
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
Based on his play last year
there is not much to say he isn’t an answer at LT
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
There really isn't much to say he is either though.
I think he’s the RT, for sure. But I don’t think we have Flo’s replacement in house.
Ready for some baseball.
You are saying there really isn't much to say that he is a LT?
Your honor I present to you half a year of very good pass protection, and capping off the year by holding Jared Allen without a sack.
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
That last part is like saying Bushrod did a good job in the Super Bowl
because Freeney didn’t have a sack.
Freeney did have a sack.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 5, 2010 11:05 PM CST up reply actions
He did. F me.
Still the argument of “Well so-and-so didn’t have a sack” is not a good way of evaluating O-lineman.
I thought Free did a good job filling in for Columbo but he didn’t look good in the playoff game.
Free stepped in and handled Allen, largely, sans the play Allen was 1-on-1 with Witten; he improved that very well, and I want to see him on the field, run blocking down field
by AustonianAggie on Mar 5, 2010 11:09 PM CST up reply actions
For an entire season?
Yes.
But you can’t point to one game and say “well he didn’t give up a sack, so he must have shut him down.”
That’s called box score syndrome.
A defensive end can still have a great game without getting a sack. e.g. getting pressure, collapsing the pocket.
when that one game is a playoff game it sure does mean something
just ask John Ayers about the time he shut down LT.
i understand you point but you got to give the dude some credit as well
Um no because Freeney was injured and Allen wasn't
Seriously?
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
The point is moot anyway...
Freeney had a sack in that SB.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 5, 2010 11:06 PM CST up reply actions
Do you honestly believe Free played well that game?
Jared Allen was living in the backfield. I guess people are having a hard time remembering because of Ray Edwards.
Quincy isn't the only one...
He did play pretty well. I don’t remember Allen just being back there on every play.
The problem was more that even when a pocket was created on the outside, the middle was getting pushed in by the Williams’s.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 5, 2010 11:18 PM CST up reply actions
yeah exactly
Kevin Williams was having a field day with the interior OL, but I suppose that is Free’s fault as well… Huh?
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
Don't get me wrong
I’m not saying he can’t play LT, I just don’t see how you can look at that game and be confident in his ability at that position.
He did play well considering the circumstances (Jared Allen, I doubt he’d be getting many reps at LT, and he was thrown in there in the middle of a game)
I know he’s the answer at RT but I need to see him take more reps at LT before I hop on the bandwagon.
I'm not totally confident...
but I think I wouldn’t feel like it’s Cory Proctor stepping in there.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 5, 2010 11:26 PM CST up reply actions
I agree, I think he'll handle it
I hope he holds up all year, if he does he could make a huge 2nd contract
I’m a big fan of Flozel but he’s stopping youth at this point
by AustonianAggie on Mar 5, 2010 11:04 PM CST up reply actions
Okay.
(1) That half a year of good pass protection (and run blocking, and basically everything else that comes along with being an OT) came at RT. HUGE difference.
(2) Flozell had Jared Allen on lockdown. As soon as he went out, Free wasn’t able to handle him on his own, so they had to give him help on that side, which freed up Colombo’s side (who was hurt and shouldn’t have been playing in the first place. Whatever, doesn’t matter, in the end there was no other choice) and allowed Ray Edwards to run rampant. They were still getting pressure when Flozell was in there, but when Free took over at LT that’s when all Hell broke loose.
Ready for some baseball.
LOL so wrong on so many levels
1. Flo wasn’t in the game that long
2. Edwards already had a couple of sacks BEFORE Flo went down
3. Free handled Allen one-on-one for a significant portion of the game. The only time Allen had a sack was when he was matched up on Witten.
In conclusion: Fail
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
You're right.
I don’t know why there is this constant assumption that Free was just getting destroyed.
He was pretty solid for a guy who was fresh off of playing LT coming in a hostile enviroment where the D line has the advantage anyways.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 5, 2010 11:12 PM CST up reply actions
I know what I saw.
I watched the game. Flozell went down early, I’m well aware. But before he went down Tony Romo actually had some time to throw the ball. When Flozell went out, Tony Romo couldn’t get off of his back. Say what you want, the only difference was that Doug Free was in at LT.
Ready for some baseball.
Now I will admit this though.
It’s probably not fair to go off of the Minnesota game. Being that it was pretty much his first game handling all the snaps at LT, it was in an extremely hostile environment, and it was against probably the best front 4 in the entire NFL.
Ready for some baseball.
Ok dude listen Ray Edwards had two sacks in about the first quarter
before Flo down. Colombo’s guy beat him twice 15 minutes into regulation before Free even entered the game.
Romo wasn’t exactly having a tea party back there before Free came into the game.
And it is sort of ridiculous you are blaming Colombo’s bad play on Free. That is just patently absurd.
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
Yeah....
Edwards destroyed Columbo which led to an early fumble with Flozell in the game.
I think the main effect of Free being in was probably run blocking. I think he’s just as an effective of a pass blocker, but not quite the mauler that Flozell is.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 5, 2010 11:21 PM CST up reply actions
Flo is more of a mauler
but if you notice is ball awareness has never been that great. He never seems to be exactly where his runner wants him to be.
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
Doug Free hitting the 2nd and 3rd level
is a great consolotation for losing Flozel’s pop at the point of attack
by AustonianAggie on Mar 5, 2010 11:28 PM CST up reply actions
Yep...
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 5, 2010 11:28 PM CST up reply actions
I never blamed Colombo's bad play on Free.
Not once did I say that. Colombo should have never even been in the game. If Free would have played RT and Flozell would have never gotten hurt, we might have had a shot. The right side was getting torn up all game long, there’s no doubt about that. Colombo’s bad play was on the coaches, they should have never even allowed him to take the field. It was his first game off a major injury, and it was a playoff game. The Free had RT handled just fine up to that point, it shouldn’t have changed. However, that all goes out the window because Flozell got hurt. And when THAT happened, Free couldn’t handle Jared Allen by himself, which meant they had to send more help to that side, which meant even less help for Columbo who was already getting beaten like a red-headed stepchild, which meant bad news for the Cowboys.
Ready for some baseball.
Sorry maybe my memory is not that great
but I don’t recall them giving Free that much more help than they gave Flo.
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
I don't think they did either.
I know they did a few plays, but in all honesty tackles get help all the time, at least TE’s come and chip for a bit before running a route.
Even the best tackles get help from time to time, certainly in a dome like that.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 5, 2010 11:27 PM CST up reply actions
Well, all I know is this.
When Flo was in the game Jared Allen wasn’t getting into the backfield. When Free came in, he was.
Ready for some baseball.
I'll admit Allen got a bit more push on Free
but Free seemed to be staying in front of him well enough. I don’t think Allen was exactly camping out in our backfield.
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
Like said earlier...
it was the interior of the line that was doing it so much. Part of that can also be contributed to falling behind, and them must pinning their ears back.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 5, 2010 11:31 PM CST up reply actions
Um he had that one sack against Witten
and three tackles. he wasn’t exactly dominating that game.
I have seen much much better performances from Jared Allen.
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
No doubt.
I didn’t say he was getting sacks. But every single person on that D-line was having a field day on our O-line. There might not have been a sack on every play, but there was so much purple in the backfield on pretty much every play it was stupid.
Again, it’s probably not fair of me to be judging Free off of that game, but that’s really all I have to go off of at LT. And based on what I saw, I’m just not convinced we should hand the reigns over to him.
Ready for some baseball.
I don't want this to turn ongoing...
I just don’t think Jared Allen was in the backfield as much as you think he was.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 5, 2010 11:41 PM CST up reply actions
No, he definitely was.
I watched the game. He wasn’t getting sacks, true, but he was definitely getting pressure and disrupting things. I’m not trying to be a pain in the ass or anything man, I’m just not convinced Free is the answer at LT based on what I saw. If you guys don’t agree with me that’s fine, we can disagree. But based on my own eyes and the way I saw the game play out, I’m not confident that he’s the guy.
Ready for some baseball.
OK.
Maybe you didn’t understand when I said, “I don’t think” and “I’m not trying to turn this into ongoing.”.
I watched the game too dude.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 6, 2010 8:44 AM CST up reply actions
Well...
he only had two tackles.
I don’t think he was as dominating as your making him out to be.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 5, 2010 11:30 PM CST up reply actions
He was getting tons of pressure.
Which was causing Romo to be hurried up (I know about Ray Edwards and Columbo, hold on), which caused them to have to give them more help on Free’s side, which caused Columbo to fail even harder than he already was, which all added up to the massive offensive line failure that we saw in that game. Flo going down caused a huge chain reaction. When he was in the game I didn’t even hear Jared Allen’s name.
Ready for some baseball.
This is how I remembered it.
Maybe someone can do us all a favor a do a breakdown of the game.
Because there’s no way in hell I’m re-watching that debacle.
When Free came into the game they used a TE to help him out..
Prior to that when Flozell was in he had zero help and Allen didnt do squat….Free is a RT plain and simple…
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
Don't recall him getting significantly more help
and Colombo was getting dominated before Flo went out. That is a fact. It had absolutely nothing to do with Free. Fact.
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
It had a lot to do with Free and I've explained why ad nauseam.
Yes Colombo sucked in that game, nobody is arguing that point. We’re focusing on the left side of the line, and the problems I saw on the left side of that game had a lot to do with Free.
Ready for some baseball.
Free was getting help from the TE's and RB's all game
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
Free was taking Allen one-on-one for a good portion of the game
not sure what you are talking about
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
Colombo had a bad game, but that was in part from him being rusty
otherwise Colombo was solid prior to him getting injured….I can’t believe guys want to bash him for one bad game…sure he made Edwards looks like Dwight Freeney but freaking relax already
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
Who is bashing him?
Quincy said “he was getting dominated all game”… and he was.
He didn’t say Columbo sucks, but he was getting dominated all game.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 6, 2010 4:09 PM CST up reply actions
Not so much you AFB, but many on here want to cut the player for what happened that game
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
you guys are making it sound like Free was in part making it harder on Colombo
not even close. Free had NOTHING to do with Colombo’s woes at all. BEFORE Free came in the game in the small amount of time Flo was in the game, Colombo gave up 2 sacks. You can’t get much worse than that.
And I don’t think he sucks, he was just injured.
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
Agreed, one had nothing to do with the other
as far as Free he was getting help on Allen. Allen was being chipped by the RB or help from the TE’s.
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
That's not exactly accurate.
Free did pretty well most of that game. The very first play he got busted up, but that was almost to be expected and he got Felix on his own.
The next play he didn’t even go up against Allen, for some reason Jason Witten was one on one with him and he got thrown to the ground.
If you look at his play afterwards he was pretty solid the rest of the game. The main culprits who were getting their ass’s whipped were a non 100 percent Columbo and Kyle Kosier.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 5, 2010 11:09 PM CST up reply actions
coaches
The coaches have been quoted as saying they think free has “left tackle feet”. So it may be how he practices that instills confidence that he can play left tackle. And besides Flo is about to hit the wallpaper. He can’t pass protect. If we can’t pass protect the Superbowl is miles away. To me an upgrade in pass protection is the to priority.
by just4fun on Mar 5, 2010 11:57 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
To me an upgrade in pass protection is the to priority.
Amen brother; Dallas needs to replace Flo and light a fire under Colombo.
well gaither would make alot more sence if this happened
i would be happy with free backing up both positions for now (behind Gaither and Colombo) and eventually taking over for Colombo. Flo has to have some value in a packaged deal. maybe would be useful to drive a sign and trade for a player like gaither to a 2nd instead of a 1st
Now this idea I like.
Cut Flo, go get Gaither to be our LT, leave Free at swing tackle for another season, then next year give him the starting RT job. If we could pick up a solid LG in the draft our O-line would be set.
Ready for some baseball.
i think free is ready now tho
cant hold him down forever, we are wasting his youth. maybe we cut neither and just add gaither unless there is some value for either Flo or Colombo
I'd even take Gaither for a first
if it meant Adams being gone. You pick up Gaither and leave the left tackle spot available to open competition. Whoever wins gets that spot, and the other backs-up both tackle spots until Colombo’s gone. Both tackle spots are locked down for the foreseeable future. I’ll take that for a first round pick.
Tex is waiting...
On former Pro Bowl NT Jamal Williams. A Wade Phillips guy entering the twilight of his career, who would flourish in a rotation. A space eater coupled with the active Jay Ratliff would give the Cowboys their best D Tackle situation since Super Bowl XXVII.
If he's healthy and at the right price...
I’d be for this.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 5, 2010 11:11 PM CST up reply actions
Please stop referring to youself in the third person
unless you are schizo of course, which I don’t think any of us has ruled out at this point.
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
are you become a wade fan or something tex
why all of a sudden all the talk of bringing in a wade guy
Jamal Williams would have to be awfully cheap to be worth the roster spot and the narrow tool set; and for his investment to pan out, he’d have to be awfully effective in his snaps
by AustonianAggie on Mar 5, 2010 11:46 PM CST up reply actions
You guys do remember Kosier
also played like a huge turd on that Vikings game, right? I remember two plays vividly. One, he was getting pancaked on his arse. And the other he let an open highway for a LB to put a lick on Romo.
by Cowboysaficionado on Mar 5, 2010 11:57 PM CST reply actions
I would consider Jamal Williams proven
I’m just sayin
Michael Irvin to Keyshawn Johnson "I know where me and Rice belong on the top ten receivers of all time list, but who do you have in the bottom 8?"
by markdamack on Mar 6, 2010 12:17 AM CST via mobile reply actions
He's nothing more than a rotation player at this stage in his career
12 years and he’s had knee problems for the last two.
He might help NT depth but he’s not what I would call the missing piece. Not this year.
its obvious
this D needs an elite safety to goto the next level. Defense wins championships right? Lets spend that first and get bethea. Then with the rest of the draft picks focus on BPA/OL. Lets do it.
What the French?! Toast!
How is getting Rolle going to improve the Giants?
In Rolle’s last two games with the Cardinals, I believe that the defense surrendered 45 points. That is not the combined total, but rather the points scored by Green Bay and New Orleans in each game.
These are not the Cardinals that let Bigg Davis walk instead of trying him inside (which has worked for the Cowboys). These Cardinals make better personnel decisions. That makes me wonder why Arizona permitted Rolle to walk.
Hamlin is not very good, but he is the best that the Cowboys have at free safety at this moment. Ken was the best the Seahawks had until they acquired someone that they believed was better.
Most teams do not let good talent walk out. The Cowboys let Canty go the free agent route and the Giants overpaid for him too. I think the Giants just bought a very expensive version of Ken Hamlin: 45 points in successive games? C’mon!
these actually are the cards who let Bigg walk
these Cards are also trying to manage better how they spend their money. Big cash for a guard is not in their budget.
by AustonianAggie on Mar 6, 2010 11:50 AM CST up reply actions
Think the Rolle signig means Kenny Phillips is done
Such a shame, he was a real talent
Seems to me if we are considering cutting Flo it’s because we are considering signing Gaither. As with cutting TO, you don’t go into this without a replacement plan in place. Ironically, the real replacement had been on the roster all along, but that’s a story for a different day.
I live in Indy and Bethea held that secondary together while Sanders got all the headlines, but missed all that PT. Surprising they would let him go. Agree he played in a different system, but he would be an upgrade over Hamlin. Don’t know this Rams Safety. Both appear to be the same size, Atogwe has been in the league a year longer.
While it’s true you build through the draft, it’s also true you fill holes through FA. The risk is less, but you are deferring a long-term solution for the short-term. That’s why so thin beyond the starters and not very young on the O-Line. I like the relative ‘certainty ’ of proven players vs unproven rookies, even though it comes at a price. I’d opine our FA signings have been better, on average, than our drafting in the WP era.
I'm not losing my memory, I'm living in the now
There was no irony for the Cowboys, they already felt they had enough receiving depth on the roster. The fans were
the ones that had trepidation about cutting TO. They knew Austin had the talent, it was just his consistency they were unsure of…people talk about Austin’s coming out party at KC and what great numbers he put up, but they rarely discuss is drop of a sure TD early in the game. The Cowboys finally threw him into the fire, and the light finally went on…
Anthony Spencer, Doug Free, Nick Folk, Deon Anderson, Alan Ball, Felix Jones, Mike Jenkins, Martellus Bennett, Tashard Choice, and Orlando Scandrick…puts holes in your assertion that drafting in the WP era is bad. I could probably argue that our drafting and free agent acquisition has actually been better after Parcells. I think the Cowboys should keep doing what they’re doing…our team is getting better and better. I have more hopes now for another Dynasty, than I have in the past 10 years.
Actually they can both play on the field at the same time
Rolle as FS and Phillips as SS. All reports coming in is that Phillips is ahead of rehab schedule and that the doctors have told him to hold off on running too early, way ahead of where they though he could even start. Rolle is not Ed Reed, but he appears to be the best of a small class of FA’s, and the Cards didn’t let him walk, they were outbid. They don’t have the cash the Gmen have. Let the uncapped era begin!
Homer: Aw, twenty dollars! I wanted a peanut!
Homer's Brain: Twenty dollars can buy many peanuts!
Homer: Explain how!
Homer's Brain: Money can be exchanged for goods and services!
Homer: Woo-hoo!
by bigbluethruandthru on Mar 6, 2010 4:00 PM CST up reply actions
Good to hear about Phillips
Cali – didn’t say our drafts were bad, but that our FA acquisition was better. And I agree both have been better, especially FA acquisition since BP
I'm not losing my memory, I'm living in the now
I think Arizona had the cash, they just didn't like the price you guys paid. Paying Rolle like the best free safety
in the league when he isn’t didn’t make sense to the Cardinals. I get why you guys paid what you did. The Giants had a glaring weakness at the safety position and went out and did something about it…you just may end up regretting it down the road. Case in point, how do you guys feel about what you paid for Canty?
If it was a capped year
I’d feel worse. Even though the Giants cap number has never been too much of a concern, if there is no cap what do I care how much money the Mara’s and Trish’s pay out of their pocket? I live too far away to go to more than a handful of games in my life even if the ticket prices were something reasonable, so that doesn’t affect me. According to the stories yesterday, Rolle liked the Giants more than the Cardinals, so the birds might not have had a choice in the matter. This was the best possible solution for right now, and although Earl Thomas may turn into a better player eventually, I like having the option to look at LB, DT, or OT in the first round now.
Homer: Aw, twenty dollars! I wanted a peanut!
Homer's Brain: Twenty dollars can buy many peanuts!
Homer: Explain how!
Homer's Brain: Money can be exchanged for goods and services!
Homer: Woo-hoo!
by bigbluethruandthru on Mar 7, 2010 10:26 AM CST up reply actions
Plus Fewell is a secondary guy
look what he did with the rook Byrd up in Buffalo. Rolle is more athletic and has experience, we’re pretty excited about seeing two fast, rangy light’s- out hitters in the backfield.
Homer: Aw, twenty dollars! I wanted a peanut!
Homer's Brain: Twenty dollars can buy many peanuts!
Homer: Explain how!
Homer's Brain: Money can be exchanged for goods and services!
Homer: Woo-hoo!
by bigbluethruandthru on Mar 7, 2010 10:28 AM CST up reply actions
Canty is an “incomplete”.
If he was 100% last year and played bad…then yes, its a bad signing.
If he stays injured his whole Giants career…its a bad signing.
As for right now, he’s a great team player..cuz like the rest of the team, he was injured all year.
I’m wiping 2009 from the memory. Hopefully the Giants have more health next year. He stinks in 2010? Then yea, bad signing. Otherwise..lets see.
Master of the squeegee
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 7, 2010 11:23 AM CST up reply actions
He was a bad signing anyways....
because he never did anything to get the money that the Giants dished out to him.
He underachieved in Dallas and his play was highly inconsistent.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 7, 2010 1:12 PM CST up reply actions
no he didn’t earn it.
Tho like Rolle, they see a good athlete that would be in position to excel with the Giants.
They made a signing on potential. He’s a young player who wasn’t playing a position that you can show up on the stat sheet that much…so I dunno what your getting at.
It looks bad cuz he did nothing last year, but he didn’t play, so its an incomplete.
Master of the squeegee
I'm not saying he won't end up being good.
But I guess I’m “getting at” the fact that he’s never going to be worth the money he’s making.
And the “he wasn’t playing a position that shows up on the stat sheet that much” doesn’t matter to me.
I’m not talking about stats, I’m talking about inconsistant play.
He’s a good player, but he’s not a 18 million guaranteed player.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 7, 2010 10:27 PM CST up reply actions
I agree, I think Rolle is another Chris Canty for the Giants.
Hamlin is good, he’s just not worth the contract he has…if we cut him today, more than a few teams will be bidding for his services. I like most fans want to upgrade the position, but the reality is that we played some pretty high powered defenses last year and our secondary was relatively stout. It’s not like it is position that is dire for us, like it is for the Giants.
Is he Restricted
In the sense we can match an offer ?
I'm not losing my memory, I'm living in the now
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