Cowboys Draft '10, Part Fourteen: En Guard!
We continue our series on Cowboys draft prospects with a look at the guard position.
Guard is generally given a lower priority within the offensive line hierarchy. That's because their pass responsibilities are less difficult than those for tackles. They block "in a phone booth," meaning they have only the areas between the tackle and the center to handle. A guard may be required to pull and block in space a lot, depending on the system, but speed and lateral quickness is not as important to their jobs as it is for OTs. Teams can move a good tackle who's lost a bit of quickness inside; guards rarely move outside with the same degree of effectiveness.
Consequently, tackles go much higher than guards in the draft. Since 2001, only six guards have been selected in the 1st round, and only 21 have been taken in the first two rounds. That's an average of just two per year in rounds 1-2.
Guard, in the Cowboys view, is a power position. A good prospect has to get movement in the run game. The Cowboys don't simply want guys who can lock on and hold their space. They want dominators, in the Nate Newton, Larry Allen mold. They also want big guys -- every Cowboys starter has topped 320, in recent years, with the exception of Kyle Kosier.
On passing downs, guards need to anchor against the bull rushers they're likely to face, in the form of NTs and DTs. They're responsible for pocket depth, meaning they cannot surrender ground, or the quarterback will have no room to move to avoid pressure off the edge.
Lastly, the guard has to be intelligent. Dallas plays in the NFC East, where two teams, the Eagles and Giants, play the Jim Johnson pressure 4-3, which runs a lot of stunts into the A gaps outside the center, and a lot of twists off the edge, where DEs crash the B gaps between the guard and the tackle. Washington is shifting to a 3-4 under new DC Jim Haslett, which means the guards will have to handle blitzes from safeties and inside linebackers.
The Cowboys have two guards, Kyle Kosier and Leonard Davis, who each satisfy part of the ideal template. Kosier is tough, active and quick on his feet. He can pull very well; Dallas runs most of its running back screens to his side, because Kosier can get into space, lock on and sustain his blocks on linebackers and safeties. He's a good run blocker when he gets center help. He's a bit lighter than the prototype Cowboys guard, however and big DTs like Albert Haynesworth can push him back into the pocket. He's also had periodic trouble with twists. In '05, he and Flozell Adams were foiled by repeated twists off their edge in a road loss to the Eagles.
Right guard Leonard Davis checks off the power component of the resume. He's a legit 365 lbs. and is very effective blocking straight ahead. He's also surprising good getting to the edge. He turned in my favorite play of the season vs. the Saints. He led Felix Jones on a toss play right and met New Orleans' MLB Jonathan Vilma on the edge. Bigg hit Vilma square, blasting him airborne and backwards; Vilma landed on his stomach four yards upfield; Jones gained eight yards in the Davis-created crease.
What Davis provides in power, he misses in lateral agility and in recognition. He frequently misses stunts into his gaps and struggles with really quick interior linemen. The Ravens Ray Lewis ran delayed blitzes through Davis' lane all night in the Texas Stadium finale and Davis never once caught on.
The Cowboys clearly want an upgrade inside, with left guard being the priority, as Kosier has just one year left on his contract. The team drafted Robert Brewster in the 3rd last year and he was on his way to challenging for the LG spot before he tore a pectoral muscle lifting weights and missed the season. He's back and lists at a stout 320 lbs. Jerry Jones complemented Brewster's conditioning recently and hinted that he may be ready to resume his pursuit of playing time. How close is he? I doubt anybody outside of Hudson Houck has a firm idea, thought I heard last spring that the team was optimistic about his skills. Brewster played right tackle in college and has good feet for the role.
Idaho guard Mike Iupati has frequently been partnered with Dallas by the mockers. He's certainly the highest rated guard in several years and looks like a first round prospect. I think, however, that we should keep his skills in perspective. Iuputi is a pure guard. He worked out at tackle at the Senior Bowl and struggled. Michigan's Brandon Graham ran over him in pass rush drills, though in Iuputi's defense, Graham made all the OTs in Mobile look silly.
Compare Iututi's skill set to Larry Allen's. Allen was picked 37th overall in '94, right at the top of the 2nd round. He fit the ideal guard profile. He was strong, he was active and he could run. He played right tackle when Erik Williams was out in '94 and he played a full season at left tackle in the season after Mark Tuinei's retirement and Dallas acquisition of Flozell Adams. Allen played extremely well at left tackle. He destroyed Simeon Rice at a time when Rice was rated one of the game's best rushers.
Iuputi can't do these things. That's not to say he doesn't have value, but that value will come exclusively inside. The bigger question is whether he'll reach pick 27. I put those odds on par with Earl Thomas', i.e. slim. Iuputi is most frequently sent to Pittsburgh in the mocks and I tend to agree. Very few teams pick guards in the first, for reasons I have outlined. The Steelers do. In fact, they've taken two of the seven guards picked in the first since '98. They snagged Alan Faneca 26th in '98 and Kendall Simmons 30th in '02. They need interior linemen badly. Steelers QBs have been sacked 99 times the last two seasons. That's right -- 99 times. Poor guard play has contributed to this frightening stat. The mockers miss more often than they hit but I think they're on target here.
If Iuputi is gone, I think the traditional pattern holds. One or two more guards may go in the 2nd round, and Dallas may go for one if Alabama's Mike Johnson or Mississippi's John Jerry are available at 59. If the Cowboys feel good about Brewster, however, they will probably wait until the 3rd or 4th to scratch the guard itch.
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Good post Raf, however . . .
. . . before you downgrade the offensive guard position too far, just remember who you’re going to ask to block the top two prospects in this year’s draft: Suh and McCoy!
From the hometown of Bob Lilly,
ummmm
NFL talented offensive lineman.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 9, 2010 4:09 PM CST up reply actions
I think the Lions
don’t we play NFC North this year
by nicholas.rodriguez on Mar 10, 2010 12:23 AM CST up reply actions
If we target bigger fellas...
Does that possibly rule out Mike Johnson? Rolltide has him listed at only 305 lbs, although at 6-6, he frame may be able to handle some weight. John Jerry is listed at 6-4, 340lbs…
WIth Johnson it comes down to how far he's maxed out?
Can he add 10-15 more pounds, or is 305 his top weight?
There are other guys who look intriging in the middle rounds like Chris Scott and Sergio Render, who go somewhere between 320-330 and have pop in the run game.
I like Chris Scott as a mid-round OG prospect.
Other guys who played OT in college, but might look better as mid-round OG prospects include Ciron Black, Chris DeGeare and possibly Ed Wang.
"Everybody wants something but nobody wants to pay the price" - Michael Irvin
+1 on Ciron Black
I’m a fan of his
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
As a guard I like him...
Not so much as a tackle.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on Mar 9, 2010 10:01 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, he's probably a guard
I like him because he’s very durable-or at least he was at LSU. But toughness is something you cannot teach and you need to play in the trenches
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
I like Black
Having a Black, Gurode, Davis Interior…thats a lot of beef
by nicholas.rodriguez on Mar 10, 2010 12:24 AM CST up reply actions
Was about to say....
No way does Dallas draft a guard with the 27th pick especially given Jones` reticence to draft linemen in the first round. Then I started thinking that just maybe drafting the second best guard would be better value than the 6th or 7th best tackle especially given Kosier`s contract. Personally i`d still rather we took Thomas or Tate but I can see the validity in another pass blocking interior guy too
I don't think the 2nd best pure OG is the 27th best player in the draft.
He might be the 59th, but not the 27th. Iuputi is the only guy I can see up there.
I'm assuming you're considering Pouncey a center
who can also swing to guard. He seems to be rated about where we will be drafting from many analyses I’ve seen.
I like Pouncey
Now we are starting to make since with our projected picks. I could see us getting Pouncey too. He could be an impact player now. Not over Gurode, but he could push Kosier for spot.
I'm with AFB here...
Why is Tate on everyone’s wish list? I know he’s talented, but damn, does everyone really think he is going to be that good?
Raf, I can’t recall your take on Tate, mind sharing(again, if you already have before)?
"I'm hurt dog, don't ask me if I'm alright. Hell na man. Juaqin said Dominate & we not doin' it. I'm puttin' my Heart into this #### dog. LET"S GO MAN!"
-The Ed Reed
The reason most like Tate
is that he came from a Pro style offense, has ran a full route tree, has experience as a return man, is good at breaking tackles, is fast… basically he looks the part of a NFL WR
by nicholas.rodriguez on Mar 9, 2010 4:37 PM CST up reply actions
here is mockingthedraft.com's profile on Tate
Golden Tate
5’11, 195 pounds | WR | Notre Dame
Acceleration: Gets up to top speed very quickly. Accelerates well into and out of his breaks which builds separation. Maintains that speed throughout his runs.
Agility: Tate generates fluid lateral movement to redirect and has the shiftiness to elude defenders. Has quick stop-and-go ability that helps quarterbacks get him short throws where he can make the initial tackler miss and turn it into a big gain.
Blocking: Surprisingly, Tate displays good technical blocking ability. He’ll struggle to sustain his blocks, though. He’s a good mirror blocker on the outside but shouldn’t be relied upon to come in motion and block near the tackle box.
Body Control: Adjusts to the ball really well. Knows how to properly use his body to shield off defenders. Times his leaps well. Tracks off-target throws really well.
Hands: While Tate is will sometimes drop some easy passes, he has very good hands. They’re incredibly strong, which helps him make difficult catches. Has a tendency to catch the ball in his frame, which he’ll have to correct.
Release: Tate doesn’t have great upper body strength, which hurts him against the tight jam. Needs to better use his quickness and athleticism off the snap. Will sometimes release slow, but he quickly gets up to speed to close a cornerback’s cushion.
Route Running: Runs good quick routes. Has the agility to make sharp cuts to create space. Will run a little upright when he goes over the middle. Ran an entire route tree at Notre Dame in the Irish’s pro-style scheme. Doesn’t get lazy or hesitant in his routes when going over the middle.
Size: Tate’s size is the biggest negative people will point to heading into the draft. Fair or not, taller receivers will be more highly regarded. Tate doesn’t have bad size, but at under six feet his size doesn’t offer mismatches. His arms don’t appear especially long and his hands aren’t known to be large. However, he knows how to use that size to his advantage.
Speed: Although there is nothing wrong with Tate’s speed, his 40 time probably won’t be amazing. If a cornerback has the same or even slightly better speed than Tate, though, he can usually get separation. Doesn’t have the deep speed to separate from cornerbacks with elite speed and quickness.
Vision: After the catch, Tate is dangerous. He’s a former running back with strong legs and great drive. Easily finds seams and has the quickness to burst through it. Does a really nice job setting up his blockers. Uses his return abilities in the open field on receiving plays.
Final word: Leaving Notre Dame was a wise decision by Tate. His skill set is ready for the NFL and very similar to that of Steve Smith of the Carolina Panthers. Tate is a slightly small receiver with a lot of strength, particularly in his legs.
Tate is dangerous after the catch and runs crisp routes to get open. His character or work ethic at Notre Dame was never in question.
Where Tate loses some value is in the red zone. Inside 20 yards, he’s best running quick slants, but his size can limit him from going over the top on fades.
He looks like a player who will be drafted in the first 40 picks.
by nicholas.rodriguez on Mar 9, 2010 4:39 PM CST up reply actions
some problems
Small, drops easy catches (sound familiar?), catches the ball in his body, not uber fast, and lacks upper body strength. I don’t understand why everyone is all over this guy. Yeah he ran a pro offense in college, but that was against college students who don’t play much press. He is going to be jammed up on most every play in the NFL, and he doesn’t have the size/strength to fight through it on a consistent basis.
You think Iupati or Pouncey dont have faults?
go watch the Senior Bowl again and tell me Iupati looks like a first round guard.. Tate fills two rolls on this team immediatley. Iupati or Pouncey could be bench players for a year. Tate gets on the field and we see him contribute right away.
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
everyone has their problems no doubt
but if Iupati, Pouncey, and Tate are available doesn’t it make sense to go OL? sure RW hasn’t proven to be a legit #1 but he has a better skill set for WR than Tate by far and we still don’t know what we have in Ogletree, Hurd et all. we do know that our OL is a much larger weak link and desperately needs some young blood in there. and anyways, with the bust rate of 1st round WRs so high do you really think a small not overly fast receiver is the best one to take a chance at?
by strobman on Mar 9, 2010 9:44 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
disagree
RW hasn’t proven to be a legit #1 but he has a better skill set for WR than Tate by far
IMO, Tate has a better skill set now and will be a better pro in the long run when its all said and done. RW is nothing more than a #2 possession WR at this point. A Keyshawn Johnson if you will, but worse hands than Key.
If Iupati ,Pouncey, Tate are available at 27 I’m all over Tate. Some are saying he is above Dez Bryant now. Tate fills two holes with one pick. If it’s a guard we need then there are plenty of good ones in the second round. Pouncey is a 2nd round draft pick and will be available. We may have to move up in the second, but he will be there. I dont agree that Iupati is a first round Guard, but will more than likely be a first round selection.
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
+1
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Mar 9, 2010 11:20 PM CST up reply actions
I sure hope people draft Tate
before Dez and somehow through the grace of God, he falls to us. My dad and brother are OSU alumni and I got to see Dez play a good amount, and boy is he something special.
Thank You Sir
Even after reading that though, I’m just not buyin’, at least not with a first rounder. Sounds solid, not a lot of negative besides the size, which can be negated. I just don’t feel the urgency in drafting him like I did with Felix or Jenkins. I’m also more worried about fixing our o-line over adding another receiver to a group that is far beyond serviceable.
Thanks again man
"I'm hurt dog, don't ask me if I'm alright. Hell na man. Juaqin said Dominate & we not doin' it. I'm puttin' my Heart into this #### dog. LET"S GO MAN!"
-The Ed Reed
I'm not AGAINST Tate...
I just think that there is the feeling that he is a can’t miss prospect, and I don’t think that is the case.
If Dallas drafted him, I’d be the first to go get my golden tate underwear, but I have the feeling that there are going to be alot of guys that are going to be crying if we don’t and I really hope that doesn’t happen.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 9, 2010 4:51 PM CST up reply actions
7 Round Mock
1. Rodger Saffold, OT, Indiana , 6’5 , 316 (MOVING UP THE DRAFT BOARD FAST) http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=78897&draftyear=2010&genpos=OT
2. Reshad Jones, S, Georgia , 6’1 , 215 (Can play both FS & SS with KR ability) http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=65574&draftyear=2010&genpos=SS
3. Mike Neal, DT/ DE, Purdue , 6’3 , 295 http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=78271&draftyear=2010&genpos=DT
4. Jamar Chaney, ILB, Mississippi State , 6’1 , 243 (Coming off a knee injury but a very tough, hard-nosed guy – Senior Bowl MVP) http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=76548&draftyear=2010&genpos=ILB
6. Seyi Ajirotutu , WR , Fresno State , 6’4 , 204 – http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=79182&draftyear=2010&genpos=WR
7. Chris DeGeare , OG , Wake Forest , 6’4 , 325 – http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=58092&draftyear=2010&genpos=OG
yeah I told him Sebastian Vollmer would be a first day pick
and he told me he would be a late rounder at best. Ha!
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
Scott Wright had Safford as our 2nd RD pick last I looked
I don’t see him ranked 1st round anywhere yet.
Much rather take Pouncey here if the top guys are gone.
I haven't see Safford anywhere near the 1st either
rising may mean he’s a solid 2nd now, but then again, with OTs rising he could be this year’s Duane Brown or Gosder Cherilus.
But I’d let some other team waste a 1st on them. You notice neither one of them is any good? Cherilus is in danger of losing his job. He’s already been booted from LT to RT and may now be running 2nd string there.
And remember
if other teams are pushing OTs, then a guy with a true late 1st or early 2nd grade is dropping.
Cherilus and Sam Baker got Mike Jenkins to Dallas. Lightning could strike twice.
This Years Draft Format
I think it will be interesting to see how the new format of having the draft across three days will effect team picks. My guess is that we’ll see less surprise picks. Teams will able to focus only on the first round knowing they will have 24 hours before their next pick. So I guess what I’m saying is that I think it will be less likely for 1st round value picks to drop. And the later round steals will not be there.
Saffold was pretty awesome in East West shrine
It would be a reach, but we would be getting a real good player.
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
Wright doesn't even list Saffold as an OT any more
he’s a guard now.
Definitely not 1st round material
Roger Saffold's arms are probably too short
for him to succeed at tackle 33 5/8 in.
by AustonianAggie on Mar 10, 2010 9:14 AM CST up reply actions
We don't need Tate
We don’t need Tate. We need O-line men. We could use a playmaker on safety. We could use depth at the NT position. Why are we going to get Tate when we have Ogletree. I would much rather put him in a position to play and push for time, then spend a draft pick on somebody who could make an immediate, I mean, immediate impact now. If we drafted a NT he would be 2 on our depth chart. If we drafted Tate, he might get to 4th or 5th. If we drafted an O Linemen, they could be starting by next year. If we drafted a safety, he could potentially be playing by next year. If we draft Tate, I know for sure he isn’t starting. Who would he beat out? Even if Williams fails, they would take the safe route and put in Crayton. Or they would try Hurd. and at the very worst., they would bring in Ogletree. Cmon guys, leave Tate alone.
Hurd probably wont be on the team come training camp
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
Why wouldn't he be in camp?
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
you're clueless Boyz
Why would they give Hurd a 2nd rd tender if they’re going to cut him?? That makes no sense
In Romo we Trust
That doesn't mean anything actually.
The 2nd round tender doesn’t mean that they will or won’t be on the final roster. I don’t expect every player that got tendered to be on the roster.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 10, 2010 9:34 AM CST up reply actions
It doesn't make sense though
If a team is going to cut a player before camp, why even bother to tender him?? You only tender players who you value, not guys you don’t want.
In Romo we Trust
I think this year is different
Last year I would have agreed with you. This year though, it seems like it is more of a way to protect players that you MIGHT value or if you think someone would be willing to sign them, so that you have a chance to get a higher draft pick. I think Hurd has a chance to be on the roster, however, if we draft a WR in the earlier-ish rounds (1st through 5th) then I think at least come the first round of cuts, he will be gone.
not before camp he won't be, that still doesn't make sense
what if the WR we draft is a bust in camp and sucks, gotta let the players compete at the very least.
In Romo we Trust
Thats what I was saying.
He should be there in camp if he isn’t traded away or something, but by the first round of cuts, if the drafted WR isn’t a total bust, Hurd would be cut.
If we draft a WR prior to the 4th round Hurd doesnt see training camp
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
I guess your new man crush is Hurd now....
News flash Terry…Hurd or Crayton wont be on the team..
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
wont be on the team and wont make it to training camp are 2 different animals.
I will say this, the 5th WR will be a full time STer.
KICK ASS every day!!!
news flash Boyz, Crayton will be and Hurd will be in camp
You can take those two scenarios to the bank.
In Romo we Trust
Raf had a whole article on this earlier...
you should have read it.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 10, 2010 10:17 AM CST up reply actions
not if you are trying to bait another team into making an offer so you get the pick
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
Do have any clue what your talking about Terry...
Just because u tender a player doesnt mean you are married to the player..
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
obviously you don't
because I said valued, not married, two different concepts. If you really think the Cowboys are going to cut Hurd before camp, you obviously have no clue what you’re talking about
In Romo we Trust
well see buddy..
the point is everyone on the tender list doesn’t necessary make the team which you think they do…simply not true and not this season.. i.e.., both Hatcher and Bowen are another example where one probably wont be on this team. Tendering some of these players is just a way to throw a line out there and see if someone will bite. It doesn’t mean they intend on keeping them.
I think it’s pretty safe to say Hurd or Crayton wont be on this team.
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
That's not what you said
You said Hurd would be cut prior to TC. You’ve made the same statement on another thread. It doesn’t matter if they draft a WR, Hurd is still going to be in camp unless he’s part of a trade. There is no way he will be cut before camp. Maybe someone beats him out in camp, that is possible. But to predict the Cowboys decide to cut him for sh*%s and giggles prior to camp is foolish. Tender has nothing to to with it.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Mar 11, 2010 7:44 PM CST up reply actions
I still think Hurd will, but Im changing my stance and throwing Crayton in there because I dont think both will make it..
one will be out….they are the same players to begin with, but Hurd is alot younger. If we draft or acquire a FA WR logically one wont make it.
At least it would give one of them an opportunity to latch on another team. They know what they have in both of them so whats the point dragging them out in training camp.
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
I never said everyone on the tenders list makes the team
I said they go to camp, really big difference. I don’t know that Hurd will survive final cuts if we draft a WR, but I guarantee you that Crayton will, you can take that to the bank.
In Romo we Trust
Has Ogletree locked down anything yet??
He hasn’t shown that he can be an effective PR? Crayton is slow,old and inconsistant as a PR. I love Ogletree, but the unknown factor still remains with him. Everyone is really that sold on Crayton and RW to think we are just fine at WR. Really?
Who do we have besides Austin? who?
Is there any WR that we can depend on to make a play besides Austin?
The answer no one.
So there is a need for another WR, especially another playmaking WR that can return PR’s which we really need.
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
how about Witten?
and it’s not like Crayton had a bad year last year, I can’t look for it now but Bob Sturm made a chart throughout the year charting our receivers and I think you’d be pleasantly suprised with Crayton’s production, esp on 3rd down
by strobman on Mar 9, 2010 9:50 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
were talking WR's...not TE's..
Witten had 1 TD last season…If you want to throw TE in there fine, but outside of those 2 the production is pretty thin elsewhere, especially the #2 WR and #3 positions.
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
and you don't think there is an unknown factor with Tate??
At least Ogletree showed he can play against NFL CBs, Tate hasn’t.
In Romo we Trust
Tate has shown more at the college level than Ogletree at the pro level IMO...
You have to consider how green Ogletree is. Tate is NFL ready coming from the offense he came from and what he brings to the table as a PR and a WR. I love Ogletree dont get me wrong, but how can we go wrong a year from now having Austin, Ogletree and Tate as the 1-3 punch…sounds pretty good you have to admitt. Honestly, unless there is some serious change in RW this season it will probably be his last.
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
+1
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Mar 11, 2010 2:55 PM CST up reply actions
Ogletree is further along than Tate
Virginia runs a pro style offense the same as ND. So if that is your argument, then it’s a false one. Ogletree has one full year in the Cowboys system, of course he’ll be further along on the learning curve.
You and Aussie are blinded by you crush’s on Tate.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Mar 11, 2010 7:48 PM CST up reply actions
Tate- first round pick
Ogletree- Undrafted who managed a total of five catches in an entire season.
It isn’t even close in comparison. Ogletree has done nothing.
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Mar 11, 2010 11:36 PM CST up reply actions
which is 5 times more at the pro level than Tate has done.
There is more known at the pro level about Ogletree than Tate. The fact that an undrafted WR is, by midseason, having his number called at key times says a whole hell of alot about him.
You guys are getting as bad as Terry with Romo. We know how unhealthy that is.
KICK ASS every day!!!
like I said love I Ogletree, but you cant compare Tate's and Oglretree college career...OMG..no
Ogetree didnt even play in college ball 2007. He only played in 24 games and wasnt even a starter in all of them…he was as green as could be coming out and for good reason.
There is a reason why Tate is a projected first roud pick and arguably the top WR in the draft this year. Tate is ready to step in a starting role now if he had to. Ogletree going into his second year has more work ahead before he gets there.
Its not even close how NFL ready Tate is coming out of college compared to Ogletree.
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
I wasnt comparing their college careers. I dont have a leg to stand on.
I just think to label Tate better and having him over Ogletree is premature. They really really like Ogletree. If he doesnt get the big head/sophmore slump he should make some big strides. Being undrafted might keep him nice and hungry.
KICK ASS every day!!!
how NFL ready Tate is has yet to be determined
We’ll know more once he makes it through his first camp.
In Romo we Trust
I'd rather draft a Tackle/guard prospect
so if Brewster shines we could put him at tackle. That is why I’m not so high on Iupati. Plus Iupati has poor feet and breaks out the grab hands when beaten.
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
Brewster is a pure guard and from what DC.com was saying about him he needs a ton of work...
I wouldn’t expect much from him until 2011.
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
yeah, I dont know. Maybe they have the inside that his rehab isn't moving alone as quick as they like..
I think he was somewhat of a project to begin with so the missed year will set him back even further..
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
Iupati needs technique work, but has better feet than a lot of the OTs in this draft.
He certainly has better feet than your boy Ducasse. There is a reason why a lot of scouts think Iupati might eventually be able to play Rt. It is because all he lacks is technique.
Yeah...
Iupati may have faults with how he blocks (aka the holding problems Mayock has cited), but I don’t think his ability to move in space is the problem. Everything I have read says he moves great for a person of his size.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on Mar 9, 2010 10:04 PM CST up reply actions
If we drafted him he would be a Guard more than likely. I dont envision Iupati being a tackle at the next level
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
Ok dude the coaches at the Senior Bowl put Ducasse at left tackle in the game
and put Iupati at guard. If Iupati has much better feet he would be playing RT, let a LT like Ducasse.
Ducasse needs technique work, but he has very good feet for his size. I trust the Senior bowl coaches much more than you.
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
+1....I dont see where people think Iupait is a tackle at the next level. Everyone has said he is a Guard.....
If anything he has a shot at RT, but no way is he is a LT.
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
How about your boy Mayock?
Him and Brian BIllick both said Ducasse is an OG only after the Combine. He was at the bottom of almost every agility drill. That is not technique.
Tate also is a returner
Looking at the scout report him I noticed that he SOMETIMES catches the ball with the body. That can be worked on.
Drops some easy passes. Show me any player anywhere that does not have some drops.
I'd put Ducasse as an ideal LG prospect for Dallas
I’m not sure he’ll ever pan out as a LT, but he could be a great OG.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
Watching him at the combine it didn't look like he was flexible
enough in the hips and ankles to be a tackle. Not that the combine means everything but he didn’t look like a good enough athlete to be a tackle.
He will be poor at both.
He does not have the footwork to play OT and lacks the game strength to play OG.
Most scouting reports dispute that
I’ve read a mix of opinion on his foot work, but not on his strength. From the NFP :
He possesses good lower body strength and has the ability to get into blocks quickly off the snap and then create a push in the run game. He’s a powerful run blocker who displays the balance to stick to opposing linemen through end of the play. He looks more like a guard prospect…
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
Flounder has been dogging Ducasse for awhile
he is just a hater
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
He's for sure about alot of things.
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 10, 2010 7:47 AM CST up reply actions
Yes I am
Until I am proven incorrect then I will happily admit it.
a bit unfair to compare Iupati to a future HOF'er
No he isn’t Larry Allen, but then again, who is.
by alanTdot. on Mar 9, 2010 8:30 PM CST via mobile reply actions
I was comparing their profiles coming out
Even before he played a game, Allen’s profile shows a lot more mobility than Iuputi’s
Go watch the Senior Bowl and tell me he is the next LA...what a joke...
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
Go watch LA rookie footage.
Iupati has potential to be a LA type OG. Only time will tell if he is willing to work as hard as LA.
LA could also play left or right tackle
and if the Senior bowl bowl is any indication Iupati can’t even play right guard
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
flippin broncos
Signed jamaal williams DARN!!!
by TONYINCC on Mar 9, 2010 9:10 PM CST via mobile reply actions
uh oh, sure Tex will have something to say about that
by strobman on Mar 9, 2010 9:52 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
The idea of Pouncey is really starting to grow on me
the one question I have is will he able to make a smooth transition from guard (which I believe he played in college) to center.
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
He's been the center on FL's line for 2 full seasons
His twin brother plays Guard.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Mar 9, 2010 10:00 PM CST up reply actions
OK, thanks
for some I reason I thought they were both guards but if he can stay at center then I’m definitely more of a fan of his than I was before.
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
En Guard
You witty S.O.B.
This is an exciting draft. It’s so tough to tell what’s going to happen or who were going to draft. It’s mainly three groups, you got your offensive line guys, and rightfully so. Your only as good as your last game, right? Then you have your safety group, these guys want a playmaker in the backfield to create them turnovers that lead to so many wins, and who can really argue with that. Then you have the smallest of the three main groups, the wr guys. These guys want points and big plays, and in the era of the air attack that equates to wins. Again a solid arguement. There’s a few scattered people who want the ends, the backers, or the DT’s but prominently you got the big three. With so many different teams needing so many different positions it’s hard to tell who’s gonna fall and who’s gonna rise come D-Day. Jerry has an itchy trigger finger, so does he bust out a few trades, if so does he go for quanity or quality? Maybe a smooth Arkansas oil man mixture of both? I’m honestly stumped. I haven’t a clue what Jerry is gonna do, and I always seem to formulate some kind of opinion.
Michael Irvin to Keyshawn Johnson "I know where me and Rice belong on the top ten receivers of all time list, but who do you have in the bottom 8?"
by markdamack on Mar 9, 2010 10:20 PM CST via mobile reply actions
ogletree
so some of you have questions about ogletree. ok there will be those same questions about tate. and for someone his size he sure isn’t a burner like we need. definitely not a sure thing. at least we have seen ogletree in action.
it's called a satchel and indiana jones wears one.
You write as though there are more questions about Tate
That is simply not true. There is a good reason why one will be drafted in the first round, and the other was not drafted at all. Ogletree’s five catches in 2009 do not make him a sure thing.
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Mar 10, 2010 5:28 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah because
You know, theres all those big name top level wide receivers in the league that are from ND.
Michael Irvin to Keyshawn Johnson "I know where me and Rice belong on the top ten receivers of all time list, but who do you have in the bottom 8?"
Haha....
Well played sir. .
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 10, 2010 1:32 PM CST up reply actions
The last one I even remember is jeff samardzija
and he didnt even go pro football
Michael Irvin to Keyshawn Johnson "I know where me and Rice belong on the top ten receivers of all time list, but who do you have in the bottom 8?"
yeah
he’s a good pitcher now
John McClain: Welcome to the party, pal!
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Mar 10, 2010 4:28 PM CST up reply actions
And how many are from Monmouth?
Do you realise that we are potentially drafting Tate not an amalgamation of every past ND WR?
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Mar 10, 2010 5:47 PM CST up reply actions
my point with the ND comment
was that Tate was in a great offensive pro style system under Weiss with a talented qb whereas Ogletree was really set up to fail at Virginia in that system with his qb.
In Romo we Trust
tate
if he is sooo polished then how come he is not going top ten? and you never even addressed my comment about his lack of burn ability. for a wr his size you would expect him to be a deep burner. and tate is not.
it's called a satchel and indiana jones wears one.
Well i mean
Look at Crayton, he’s only got about an inch and maybe 10 pounds on Tate, and I can assure you Tate is faster than Crayton
Michael Irvin to Keyshawn Johnson "I know where me and Rice belong on the top ten receivers of all time list, but who do you have in the bottom 8?"
In all reality
Everyone knows the Draft is a crap shoot, especially with receivers..but you cant win if you dont roll the dice
Michael Irvin to Keyshawn Johnson "I know where me and Rice belong on the top ten receivers of all time list, but who do you have in the bottom 8?"
Tate ran a 4.43 at the Combine and I expect him to run a little faster than that at his Pro Day
4.43 is pretty fast…and if anyone watch him return punts knows the kid can fly with his pads on and make the moves unlike Crayton.
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
tate
haha tate ran a 4.43. man that sucks for a guy his size. at that size you want a burner, a deep threat. and sorry but 4.43 is not a deep threat. linebackers can run a 4.43.
it's called a satchel and indiana jones wears one.
Tate is known for his speed, quickness and YAC...
If you know anything about football then you know football speed and track speed are two different things. Go watch some ND games and tell me the kid is slow…lol…Tate will run a better 40 time at his pro day count on it.
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
whatever
oh so you know tate personally and know for sure he will run faster? well hell if i knew that i never would have disagreed with you. well he will need to run lot faster imo to justify taking him in 1st rd at his size. and even then how much weight would that carry since everyone performs better at their pro day. big whoop if he runs faster at his pro day. i would expect him to.
it's called a satchel and indiana jones wears one.
Comparing his YPC to that of Bryant for example
Tate in 2007- 21.8 2008- 18.6 2009- 19.0
Bryant in 2007- 14.5 2008- 17.0 2009- 16.1
Not really a whole lot of difference there.
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Mar 10, 2010 5:53 PM CST up reply actions
Oh come on now
Tate’s actual stat line from 2007: 12 games 6 catches 131 yds 21.8 ypc
Let’s look at their career numbers for a better comparison:
Tate – 37 games 157 catches 2,707 yds 17.2 avg 26 TD
Bryant – 28 games 147 catches 2,425 yds 16.5 avg 29 TD
Bryant was the more productive WR per game played.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Mar 10, 2010 6:57 PM CST up reply actions
Alright
I’ll admit that I missed the 2007 numbers. But your stats still show that Tate has a better YPC than Bryant, which was my initial point, in reference to max’s statement.
Although Bryant seemingly was more productive per game, if you dont include Tate’s first year (he was a high school RB not WR) you would find that Tate has more catches per game, more yards per game and a better YPC figure. On top of this, Tate is a return man.
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Mar 10, 2010 8:13 PM CST up reply actions
Bryant is also an outstanding punt returner, even better than Tate
2008 17 returns 305 yds 17.9 avg 2 TD
2009 3 returns 111 yds 37.0 avg 1 TD
You can’t just throw out Tate’s freshman season to try and show he’s as good as Dez because it makes his numbers look better. That’s not the way it works. You have to look at the good and the bad. Tate’s still in the running for 2nd best WR in the draft, and has a chance to go in the 1st round. That’s pretty good.
to make the jump to the next level, Odrick said today he needs to work on one area. "Just being more violent overall,'' Odrick said. "Play the game and play it right, violently.''
by APerfectStar on Mar 11, 2010 1:59 AM CST up reply actions
Mental block there
I don’t know where I was going with my last sentence.
But I certainly can ‘throw out" Tate’s freshman season. He was a highschool running back who was making the transition to a different position. It is natural that he struggled. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to suggest that 6 catches in 12 games is in no way indicative of his skill level.
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Mar 11, 2010 3:24 AM CST up reply actions
I think Dez came into every game, with the opponents 1st concern, of stopping Dez.
Somehow I beleive more than 1 game plan was stop Dez and you can win. I just dont know if that kind of attention was paid to Tate. Im sure he was targeted some but not at the same level. Bryant also didnt have a 1st round QB throwing to him.
KICK ASS every day!!!
Valid points
and Tate did have for parts of his college career Michael Floyd opposite him. Which are factors working in Tate’s favour, but that said, he has had a more productive last two seasons than any other WR that will be drafted next month.
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Mar 12, 2010 6:45 PM CST up reply actions
and besides
if we did draft a wr in first rd that would be quite a bit of cash invested in the wr corps.
it's called a satchel and indiana jones wears one.
First economic rule of rationality
is to ignore sunk costs. RW’s contract shouldn’t affect whether or not we draft Tate. And besides, money paid at the end of the first round is not that extravagant.
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Mar 10, 2010 5:29 AM CST up reply actions
$12.5 Million is not a sunk cost...
It is an account payable because it’s due during the year, whether he’s on the roster or not.
It’s nice of you to be so cavalier with Jerry’s money.
We all know you want RW off the roster and are trying your best to pump up any WR as the answer in the draft, but all you’re doing is working yourself into a frenzy. As soon as the draft is over, you’re going to wail on the ’Boys for not having spent adequate resources to the problem.
It’s a foregone conclusion that RW is going to be on the roster. Better to suffer in silence than to start resembling Terry and his man-love for Romo.
He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. - Thomas Jefferson
Well I disagree with you premise
You state that
It is an account payable because it’s due during the year, whether he’s on the roster or not.
Therefore his contract is a sunk cost, correct?
And I am more or less ambivalent as to whether or not Roy stays on the team. As far as supporting WRs, I am only really triumphing Tate because I think he will be very good. I dont think that an extra WR is necessary, but I think if the elite o-line and safety talent is gone at 27, Tate would be a steal.
RW is the opposite of WR. Coincidence? I think not.
by aussie_cowboy on Mar 10, 2010 5:58 PM CST up reply actions
Mid 20's first round pick is not like spending top ten money...
And if were looking to dump RW after this season its an insurance policy. Tate gets a year under his belt and would be ready to assume the #2 or #3 position in 2011.
"Austin made the play, Austin saved the day" Brad Sham
watching the 92 NFC championship game on NFL network
It never never never gets old. Emmitt Smith looks great, Irvin looks great and daryl johnston is nailing everybody. That cowboys dline rotation was awesome.
by alanTdot. on Mar 10, 2010 1:11 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Raf, I gotta say I am soooo glad I found this site!
I love reading your posts; intelligent, concise and full of info I can only get by doing alot of endless research. I’m a longtime user of DallasCowboys.com and I’ve gotten so sick of the bickering, negativity and childish posts being put on there. To most of the guys on here I’d like to say kudos for really good posts about Dallas and their needs. For me, the only thing I don’t know (and none of us does) is what the braintrust at Valley Ranch is thinking. They may be thinking that Free can replace Flo,then maybe they can move Flo inside (like they did with Allen) and Brewster is ready to take Kozier’s job, so maybe they’ll just look for some depth to develop on the O-Line in the draft. Personally, I hope a great safety falls to us as it’s been a weakness of ours for years. Tehn we can address DLine and O-Line later in the draft.
Nice point
The coaches and management have a solid idea of what they think they have and therefore what they need. They won’t always be right, but that’s their basis for decision-making. This is the missing piece of the puzzle for us fans.
Although we have Raf and they don’t, so take that Jerry!
FREE THE OGLETREE!!!

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