Cowboys RT template.
I really dislike the Cowboys mold at RT. They seem to just zero in on one type of prospect and their success has been poor.
Look at the last three guys drafted for RT;
6th Round Rob Petitti – 6'6" 340, Pittsburgh. Positives; played a bunch of games, strong hand punch, reputation as a mauler, big size. Negatives; slow footed, poor agility and quickness, lunges, struggles versus good edge rush, slow out of stance.
3rd Round James Marten – 6'8" 309, Boston College. Positives; played a bunch of games, strong hand punch, reputation as a mauler, big size. Negatives; very slow coming off the ball, lacks quick feet to mirror edge rushers, poor balance, stiff, too tall to sink his weight results in marginal leg drive, lacks knee bend.
6th Round Sam Young – 6'8" 316, Notre Dame. Positives; played a bunch of games, strong hand punch, reputation as a mauler, big size. Negatives; slow in his lateral movement, struggles against speed, lacks footwork to pull or trap well, can be out-quicked by Ends and Tackles off the snap, height and average footwork make him lumber in space.
How many of these types have to wash out before they change their assessment?
The only OT drafted lately who didn't fit the mold was 4th round pick Northern Illinois' Doug Free. His attributes are almost a complete reverse of the others. He was regarded as extremely gifted athletically for OT (a former TE). Positives; Excellent pass blocker, very quick feet, quick off the snap, great flexibility, great second level blocking. Negatives; Finesse type, lacks upper body strength for strong hand punch, better pass blocker than run blocker, needs to improve anchor against the bull rush.
Free was the opposite of their mold in nearly every way.
How much do they love their mold? They drafted Marten a full round before Free!! Every scouting list you will find will have Free ahead of Marten but apparently not ours.
With a few years of NFL training Free could improve his greatest perceived weakness; strength.
There's no amount of time that is going to make those other guys quicker or faster. This is why they haven't made it and why Free has. Free played RT very well even when he was the complete opposite of what they believe they need in a RT. His versatility is so great that they're now moving him to start at LT while Pettiti and Marten can't get a start anywhere at any position.
This idea that RT's don't need to be athletic is outdated. It's a passing league. We're a passing offense. People sing Marc Colombo's praises because he's un-athletic but he "gets in done" or some such line. Do you not remember the last three playoff losses? Colombo was poor in Seattle, very poor against New York and terrible against Minnesota. Has he had some good games? Yeah sure, but his physical limitations show up year after year and it routinely (along with Flow) derails our offense which derails the season (think Arizona in 08 too).
As far as Young is concerned, it's the sixth round, you get what you pay for.
I don't see how Sam Young is any different to those others washouts and I don't see how continuing to draft these types is Romo-friendly.
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Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
man this is waht i had been thiking since.. i don’t remember when
Marc Colombo has been a headache on important games but nobody take care of taht because he plays well against regular to good ends in regular season, i know it’s important but if you get knocked down on playoffs doesn’t matter if you were 16-0 on regular season, regarding the T mold dallas likes, seems you think it’s time for a change and so I and i’m not asking for just finesse guys i just ask something balanced and not a big guy who could be beaten by some courtney brown
and please don’t remmeber me about Petiti, just thinking about him makes me cry
Luke, I share your disappointment.
I was certainly hoping the Cowboys were going to bring in an OLine prospect that was more versatile than Young. Especially after the Minnesota playoff loss, where Ray Edwards looked like God’s gift to a defensive coordinator, I was hoping we’d adjust the template at RT, too.
"Everybody wants something but nobody wants to pay the price" - Michael Irvin
The Cowboys seem to be in favor of the saying...
… if at first you don’t succeed try again, and again, and again.
It’s not a bad philosophy sometimes but it seems to be treading dangerously close to another saying.
Insanity is doing the exact same thing over and over and expecting different results.
Luke, excellent write-up ... and you're right, our stereotypical LOT is, well, insane!
Try not to get into a pissing match with a skunk :)
Yep...
I agree. I’m not saying Young will definitly suck, but why not get guys with higher upside?
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
Also anyone who ever refers to Dez Bryant as a Dez Dispenser owes me a dollar.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on May 5, 2010 8:52 PM CDT reply actions
Totally agree,
I’d be happy to be wrong but Young just fits the failed mold so well it’s hard to be positive.
But again this is what happens when you try to find a Tackle in round 6. Occasionally you can find a diamond in the rough but most times you get what you pay for.
Before I get labeled a Young supporter
I will disclaimer what I am about to say: “I do not necessarily agree with the opinions I am about to share”.
Ok now that we have that straight here is the reason I have HEARD they drafted him for. Since he has started so many games they hope this translates to most pro ready. They didn’t look for upside, because let’s all be honest Rd 6 and we aren’t good in Rd’s 1&2 at drafting OL that stick on the roster… They probably are going to look into the OL issue (I HOPE TO EVERYTHING HOLY) next year and try to get a Vet FA to compete or at least be a compitent back-up. Seems decent on paper…. I guess….
Semper Fi Do or Die
They said the same kind of things – started a lot of games, good technique – about Petitti and Marten too.
I’ve heard them say it too I just don’t like the logic. What the point of al that college experience if your game does not translate to the next level?
Petitti sure was an experienced college player as he was getting destroyed in the NFL and then cut after one season here.
Would a less experienced College player have not sat on the bench and then got cut as good as an experienced college player like Marten did :)
I dont agree with the philosophy either
Hence the disclaimer… Idk, I would love to get in the FO minds to see why they do what they do. You can have all the weapons in the world, but if Romo is on his back they will be futile. I’m writing something up about it right now, once it’s perfected I think you will see my overall take is definately on line with yours.
Semper Fi Do or Die
No worries Jeremiah
I wasn’t having a go at you, sorry if it came of that way. I was just picking on that idea they (as in Dallas) espouse.
I know!
I just was clarifying. You can never be to sure in a world of sound bites and hyper links! lol
Semper Fi Do or Die
he's a pr nightmare though
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
Also anyone who ever refers to Dez Bryant as a Dez Dispenser owes me a dollar.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on May 6, 2010 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Ya good upside
with so many issues no one is willing to touch him with a 10 ft pole… much less spend a draft pick.
Semper Fi Do or Die
Yea, but for how long?
If Washington comes in and is able to respectfully answer and decline questions, the bulk of the PR mess and TMZ like questions should go away pretty quickly. It shouldn’t resurface after the first big wave, unless of course he does something terribly stupid. I’m still on board with giving the man a chance to prove he’s worth the initial headache.
Let the chips fall where they may
I didn't say I was against giving him a chance.
I merely stated that no one want’s him and he was not getting drafted. I understand making misakes (regardless of how they might disgust others) and I don’t think that takes affect on the feild, but I’d be more curious of how his teammates/coaches handle it over the PR. We get thrashed by the media on a regular basis so that doesn’t bother me. Locker room divides do. If he came in and worked hard and made the cut, with his teammates on his side I would be all in with the pick. I just don’t know how they feel so I can’t come to a conclusion on whether it would be good or bad. T.O. played well, but his locker room drama gave him a plane ticket out, so I wouldn’t want to bring in bad character or divide the team. I’d be happy for him if he was a Cowboy that left the baggage in his teenage years.
Semper Fi Do or Die
Thanks
and I’m glad you brought him up actually., I wasn’t really even thinking about him, but he qualified for an easy 6th rounder skills wise.
Semper Fi Do or Die
Not that I've heard.
I have seen anything that leads me to believe a teams interested even….
Semper Fi Do or Die
you gotta feel for the guy
And I don’t buy the “locker room / chemistry” concern issue. The media will want to sell papers and sensationalize something that happened many years ago. They’ll WANT to get people foamed up about it, it’s their job.
Players and coaches can see through that pile of rubbish.
Players might not approve, but they’re professionals and if the guy can play and works hard, off-field stuff from years ago won’t hold much weight.
Big Ben will be throwing footballs for the Steelers next year – but puritanical America wants to ban this guy?
Now we don’t have a need for this guy, but I hope someone gives him a shot.
Try not to get into a pissing match with a skunk :)
Media frenzy
Dallas isn’t going to touch Washington look at what’s happening with the Dez Bryant story can you even imagine how it would be if the Cowboys sign this guy? The fact that other teams who aren’t as high profile as the Cowboys haven’t sign him as a UFDA should say a lot.
by Silverblustar on May 8, 2010 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Interesting perspective, except...you missed Brewster
Who seems more of a tweener – looking at hulking Colombo on one end, and fleet footed Free on the other – then fitting either prototype. He’s got good size, and decent speed…but doesn’t have the punch/power of a Colombo, nor the fluidity in space of a Free.
Other than that, I agree your comparison’s don’t bode well for cement-shoes Sam.
by Left Coast Cowboy on May 6, 2010 12:59 AM CDT reply actions
Great point.
I did miss the Rooster. You’re right too he’s sort of in between The Mold and Doug Free. This gives me hope that he could become a good RT one day (hopefully 2011).
My only problem with your line of though is this one:
The Cowboys are already a very limited team in power blocking, if you stop taking road graders you will see an OLine like the 90’s Lions… A team that couldn’t power block to save their lives and which showed in Sanders numbers… A guy known for making long runs and several plays for loss of yardage or no gain…
Our team is already extremely close to being that team, but things aren’t still that bad… And while I really like Felix, I’m sorry, but he isn’t Barry Sanders…
The team needs to develop some of those slower power blockers, because more mobility won’t cut it.
Arnold, almost 5 years of good memories, you'll be missed.
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
Oh, I forgot another point...
Sanders numbers were also affected in the most important area, TDs scored. He was a menace to score from almost anywhere on the field, true, but he wasn’t a menace in short yardage.
And that was a big minus in his game.
Arnold, almost 5 years of good memories, you'll be missed.
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
And Detroit took Sanders out around the goaline for a bigger more powerful back. I think it had very little to do with the OLine.
I disagree
The Lions gave Sanders every chance that they could in short yardage and in the red zone… Then they moved to bigger backs just to see if they could withstand the amount of hits before the LOS and continue to move forward… They failed miserably, BTW…
Arnold, almost 5 years of good memories, you'll be missed.
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
Touchdown Tommy Vardell!!
Seriously though, that Detroit Oline had some good players. What they didn’t have was a QB.
Chandus,
The thing is though, we have a huge offensive line that theoretically should be great power blockers but they’re not. There is such a thing as too big when it affects your athleticism.
Flozell – 6’7" 340.
Kosier – 6’5" 305.
Gurode – 6’4" 312.
Davis – 6’6" 350.
Colombo – 6’8" 320.
It’s was one of the biggest, if not the biggest OLine in the league, and yet as you said they struggle to power block. How many times did those huge right side "road graders" let us down in goaline and short yardage because they were slow off the snap and let quicker defenders knife past them or get leverage underneath them because they couldn’t bend adequately from their heights.
Many defenders now are too quick for the behemoths. Let’s look at two of the best interior Olineman playing now;
Jahri Evans – 6’4" 318.
Chris Snee – 6’3 317.
Let’s look at Dallas’ two great 90’s Guards;
Larry Allen – 6’3" 325.
Nate Newton – 6’3" 328.
Now let’s look at our Guards now;
Leonard Davis – 6’6" 350.
Kyle Kosier – 6’5" 305.
And the best part is almost every source has told us that Kosier graded out as the better player.
Guys who are really huge and lack initial quickness, like Flow and Davis, or guys who are really tall with poor flexibility, like Colombo, are what hurts this team. We don’t need to get slower, we need to get more athletic. There are players who have good power and athleticism (like the prominent Guards listed above). If just being powerful alone cut it, we’d have the best OLine in the league. We don’t.
Kosier was indeed graded as the most consistent. But there lies a problem, the guy is only asked to block on the move because he sucks as a power block… He graded that high because he’s a one trick pony that performs his trick admirably well, but he’s still a one trick pony… In pass protection he laso performs the best when he’s helping Gurode control the DT in their side… If he has a DT in his nose and the Tackle is any good, they guy’s moved backwards quite a bit, but he’s so though that he never surrenders and sacks are rare… But a pocket that’s collapsing from the middle isn’t comfortable, even for a QB as mobile as Romo…
Meanwhile, a player like Davis, while wildly inconsistent is a pancake block waiting to happen and he can also block on the move… The guy is way more versatile. How much of his game is damaged because the other side is predictable? It’s hard to know…
But I agree, I would like to see a player with a lower center of gravity on a Guard position in the future, that’s one of the things that you want on a Guard and the Cowboys don’t have that.
Arnold, almost 5 years of good memories, you'll be missed.
Viva México! Go Cowboys!
Kosier has his weaknesses no doubt.
He also plays the easiest position on the Oline which helps his grade. But I think you’re slightly exaggerating his negatives. I’m not advocating 5 Kosier’s across the Line but I’d rather that than 5 Davis’. Davis makes some spectacular plays that everybody notices and loves but he makes mental mistakes, is slow off the ball sometimes and gets Romo flattened too. Kosier may get pushed back into the pocket more times than Davis but Davis gets flat out beat more times than Kosier.
Kosier is steady but unspectacular.
Davis is boom or bust.
Flow was boom or bust last year and Gurode, though less so, suffers the same syndrome. I don’t like boom or bust at the Oline position it’s what leads to an inconsistent offense (which we have).
Like you said, ideally we upgrade both our Guards in the next few years.
He didn't get picked up by anybody?
Dude had a 3rd round grade, and by most accounts has turned things around after making a huge mistake when he was 16. It’s a shame if the guy DOESN’T have an NFL career.
Epic Fail since 1985
by the red scare on May 7, 2010 12:45 AM CDT up reply actions
I actually think he might have a shot getting picked up once training camps start picking up.
Teams who suffer injuries are going to be much more willing to take a shot on a guy like Tony Washington. Plus, there is so much roster shuffling going on I don’t think it would really become a sensationalized issue.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on May 11, 2010 7:11 PM CDT up reply actions
exactly, what can you really expect..
you usually miss alot in the late rounds so there..
Did either one of you actually read the post?
It wasn’t about sam young sucking, it was about Dallas having a think for OT’s that are big and slow.
If you’re going to be critical, at least know what it is your critisizing.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
Also anyone who ever refers to Dez Bryant as a Dez Dispenser owes me a dollar.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on May 6, 2010 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions
lol
guess which template Alex Barron follows?
But to be fair, his profile says hes much more athletic than those guys.
I was wondering if he'd be an upgrade at RT
I wish we’d go at least a little more athletic at the position. More and more teams are loaded with pass rushers that can get around slower OTs with ease on both sides. Free was excellent at RT, despite being in the “finesse” LT mold. I kind of figured that would be the direction we’d move, given how pass oriented our offense is to begin with.
Epic Fail since 1985
by the red scare on May 7, 2010 12:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Pettiti, Marten and Young all have the common ingredient that fails
tackles time and time again…. slow feet. Which is why I’m scratching my head on Sam Young. I watched the video clip of the guy and he has slow feet and will get eaten up at the NFL level.
I don’t really care if a tackle is 318 or 340 lbs., but tackles must have quick feet. I don’t want to hear the excuses that Young was always in front of his guy at the college level. That doesn’t translate to the NFL.
If we want to groom a tackle because we cannot or won’t draft one in the early rounds, fine, but make sure that the tackle you do draft has quick feet and start from there. Young to me, projects more as a guard than a tackle based on his foot speed. His height doesn’t project as a guard for he will lack low leverage. They drafted a guy that in my opinion won’t fit in at guard or tackle. That to me is a wasted pick. I would love to be proven wrong on this, but i doubt it.
I agree with mostly all of that.
And his “highlight” film, ehhh not so excited by the looks of a DE blasting straight past him to the QB. I don’t think Romo is mobile enough to dodge that on a regular basis so I hope we don’t wind up relying on him. By the looks of it we won’t though with the new trade and Brewster both being more competent RT’s.
Semper Fi Do or Die
Jerry never learns
He keeps being stubborn with his decision making this is why we haven’t wona SB in a long time totally agree what was he thinking with the Sam Young pick look at ND games from last year he made Columbo in the Viking game look like a all pro compared to how he struggled with speed rushers. Stupid pick and a waste if he makes the team it won’t be because he’s showing something in training camp but because jerry wants to save face. That’s why when people keep saying how high we had Sean lee rated on our draft board it doesn’t mean that he’s going to turn out to be good. There were plenty of good young OL we could have drafted nad started to develop to replace our old OL but Jerry wants to do it his way. Thinking that if he has injuries he’ll have a quick fix replacement in Alex Barron sorry it doesn’t work like that.
by Silverblustar on May 8, 2010 7:50 PM CDT up reply actions
6'8" Guard?
OG’s have to get low to win most interior battles. Not true as much of OT’s, where kicksliding and lateral agility carry the day.
Bigg is an anomaly.
6’4" and shorter on the OG’s…
"Emotion is highly overrated in football. My wife Corky is emotional as hell but can't play football worth a damn."
- John McKay, the first coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Bling buddy, I think you read it incorrectly.
Youngs footwork project him as a guard, but his height doesn’t, because he will lack low leverage. Hence, a wasted pick.
Spot on T Zig.
He doesn’t seem to fit at either position. It’s the sixth round so Tackles with good feet are an anomaly so why pick one here at all when there’s players at other positions who look like better prospects.
Yeah that is why I wanted Kyle Calloway instead
not sure why we picked sam young with Calloway still on the board. Oh well.
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
Can't Argue With Anything There
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