The Tony Romo Paradox
Being the quarterback of America’s Team is no easy job. No position in the most popular sport in the United States of America is more scrutinized, analyzed and criticized. The Dallas Cowboys have had more than their fair share of great QB’s, several of whom have been inducted into the Hall of Fame. As fans, you could easily argue that we’re spoiled by the long history of outstanding play by Dallas’ QB’s over decades of record-setting individual and team performances. As a result, the bar is set very high for anyone who dares take up the mantle of QB for our beloved Cowboys.
One thing I often find interesting is the paradox of the position. If your stats look great, but your team doesn’t, then you’re not a member of the truly elite QB club. The fact is that the performance of QB’s, more than any other position, is viewed through the lens of their TEAM’s performance. Matt Schaub can lead the league in passing, but he’s not going to be remembered as anything special unless he either has a dozen more of those 4700 yard seasons in him or he wins a freakin’ Super Bowl. It’s not MY reality, it’s THE reality. In the same way that some NFL fans deride Troy Aikman’s accomplishments because he lacked the gaudy numbers of some of his contemporaries (no one will deny he benefitted from having an outstanding O-line and played with supremely talented players and coaches) I reject the views of people who say stats should be juxtaposed with, and viewed in the same context as, performance as a leader, game manager and most important, a winner. I understand their contentions, but I just plainly and openly reject them. Now, I doubt anyone would say Dan Marino wasn’t a better QB than Trent Dilfer, but those are the examples of people who need to be right more so than needing to be correct. Marino was far and away the better QB, but the comparison is no more than a stupid and foolish attempt at a straw man. So please, either come up with new material or don’t waste your time.
Let me be perfectly clear. I don’t care if Romo passes for 100 yards this year or 10,000 yards. I want him to lead the Cowboys to the Bling. I try to forget seasons that end in anything less than a Bling. I pay a lot of money to fly to Dallas every year to watch the games and drop a chunk of change on Cowboys gear (you should see my closet…I could open a Cowboys store). In return, I want a Bling. Nothing more, nothing less. Is that asking for too much? Yes, but that’s the beauty of being a Dallas fan. I’m not satisfied with just a playoff win. I’m not okay with an appearance in the post-season. It is this that separates me from Chargers fans and Redskins fans and (say it baby!!!) Eagles fans.
I have been called out for being openly critical of the play of our current franchise QB. Maybe…maybe not. I will say that, in the past, I’ve written what turned out to be some controversial posts about what I perceived to be plusses and minuses of Romo’s game and where I thought he needed to improve his decision making and management skills, both on and off the field. Keep in mind, however, that my fixation isn’t upon anything other than what the team and, in this particular case, Romo, needs to do to win it all.
Just for clarity’s sake, here are the three most salient posts to help jog any memories that need jogging.
http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2009/8/12/986563/romo-de-constructed
http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2009/4/4/822663/will-the-real-tony-romo-please
http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2009/1/10/716215/no-spin-zone-romo
Deep down inside, I like to think that Romo reads some of my posts (no, I didn’t ask him at the Brees golf tournament) and takes them to heart. After all, I think he has taken it upon himself to improve on some of the things I have tossed out there. While I don’t think that working on throwing at different arm angles is necessarily the best use of his time and energies, he’s obviously gotten better in specific areas which I had criticized him about. This became plainly evident, especially last year, as he displayed an understanding that it’s not always the great throws he made, but sometimes the crappy throw he chose NOT to make, that would propel Dallas to it’s rightful place on top of the NFL world.
So, having said all of that, let me outline a few areas worth noting about our Mr. Romo and what I think he needs to do to lead this team to the top.
Stay Cool When You See Red
Romo’s production in the Red Zone (totally hate that name…hate it, hate it, hate it!) hasn’t been what it could be. He’s got a bevy of tall targets to throw to. He’s got two and a half capable tight ends. He’s got (supposedly) a Left Tackle who won’t get called for a false start at the 9 yard line on 3rd and 2. He’s got several years under his belt with the same playbook and he’s got the rookie WR with the biggest set of mitts the NFL has ever seen on a guy who runs a 4.5 forty. In 2009, Romo passed for 4483 yards and Dallas ran for another 2103 putting the team #2 in YPG on offense. But Dallas scored a meager 22.6 PPG last year which put them 14th in the NFL (really?). While I’m not a believer in statistics telling the tale, it is interesting to note that Dallas also had a Red Zone TD % of 52.6 last year and that was also 14th in the NFL (really). That, ladies and gentlemen, is a travesty with the volume of talent the Cowboys possess on offense. Romo needs to take this opportunity to do what Troy Aikman did and be the kind of field general that won’t tolerate mental lapses, including his own, and become the fiery presence in the huddle that can WILL them into the end zone when he has to. Yes, it’s a team game. No, one player can’t do it all. Yes, I still expect him to be able to do what needs to be done.
Ready, Set, G………………………………o?
Too often, Romo is associated with poor starts, and rightfully so. Anyone who watched all of the games from start to finish last year had to be unhappy with the way Romo’s early throws were behind receivers, floating high and generally erratic (take a look at the Tampa game in the first half if you want to scream your bloody head off). While you could make an argument that he improved, in almost every instance, as the game wore on, it’s simply inexcusable to start off as cold as Romo characteristically does (he’s outstanding late in games, but that’s neither here nor there). Now, I could say that some of this is attributable to Redball not helping Romo get into a rhythm early in games and creating some easy passes into the flat, bubble screens, etc. But in the end, Romo has to execute the plays that are called for the offense and deliver the ball accurately into the hands of the receiver. First quarter or fourth quarter, he has to be consistently on the money. Tony is blessed to have a complementary set of skill players unlike any other team in the NFL, which makes his slow starts even more infuriating. I don’t know if it’s a blood sugar issue or just that Romo needs a couple of series (quarters?) to get warmed up, but for the team to be able to control the tempo of the game without having to rely too heavily on its defense, Dallas needs to start more quickly. Put simply, that means Romo can’t wait until the 2nd half to get off.
Over the Top
This offense can’t be a dominant one unless it finds new ways to deliver the ball deep downfield and Romo has to put the ball in the air on routes of more than 10-20 yards. Dallas had plenty of plays over 20 yards from scrimmage last year. The problem is that I could count on one hand those instances where the ball actually traveled that distance in the air (can you say, “New Orleans game”?). An overarching majority of our big plays came from busted tackles (thank you, Miles Austin) and short passes with good RAC yardage. Now none of my notes about Romo’s developmental areas are doable in a vacuum. First, he needs plays called that include 9 routes, stop and go’s, streaks and deep crossing routes. Next, he needs good pass blocking. Finally, he needs the receiver to get open. None of those things are on him. But if you go back and watch the games last year, you would find Romo looking away from the deep routes too early in the play, especially when pressure was not apparent. In his defense, he probably thought he was playing with a handicap given Roy Williams’ struggles, but even seam routes for Witten and Telly B, where they had separated from the defender, were clearly missed. Dallas’ ability to score more than the aforementioned mediocre 22.6 points per game in 2010 may depend largely on Romo’s ability to keep safeties from pinching up into the box. Defenses did exactly what I said they would do, and they forced Dallas to beat them over the top. Too often, we didn’t.
Now, I would be remiss if I didn’t take this opportunity to call out Romo for “good behavior” in areas in which I’ve chided him in years prior. It’s true that Romo made some significant strides last year as a QB and as a leader. As I said, I’ve been (appropriately) critical of some boneheaded moves & decisions he has made in the past and it wouldn’t be fair if he didn’t get praise for the development he displayed last season.
Duck and Cover
Probably more than any other area, this was the most noticeable improvement that Romo made on the field. His decision making around the passes he chose NOT to throw were what really changed the face of the Cowboys offense. The unfortunate part of all this is that Romo took a beating back there. He was sacked a whopping 34 times in 2009 and some of those hits left Romo wobbly. Still, the evolution of all great QB’s included a defining moment where the light went on and the notion of not turning the ball over became more important than making the highlight reel play. Nothing, in my humble opinion, was more important to the team than that single solitary change in Romo’s approach. He deserves our praise here.
If You Ain’t the Lead Dog, the View Never Changes
I covered how Tony the QB improved a great deal. Of more interest to me personally, I observed how Tony the Leader seemed to grow up a bit in 2009 as well. There were moments during previous years when adversity would send Romo back to the bench with his head in his hands, despondent and non-communicative. That was not the case last year. In fact, I saw a guy who moved purposefully to the bench and immersed himself in the snapshots of the defense with his Offensive Coordinator and was really trying to figure out what he needed to do differently to get the team in position to score. Often times, that kind of personal development and maturation flies under the radar, but can be a catalyst as a QB takes the reins of not just the offense, but the entire team. I saw it happen with Elway, Aikman, Peyton, Phillip Rivers and now, with Tony. I don’t know how much the T.O. thing really affected Romo, but I said he wouldn’t become the QB he could be with T.O. dominating the foreground. This should be Tony Romo’s team and if he continues to mature as a leader, it certainly will be.
TMZ Reports that Tony Romo was seen xxxxxx
Seriously, when was the last time you saw a story on Romo in Us Magazine, People, The Enquirer, on TMZ or E!News? I was one of the people who said that Romo can’t act like Vinnie Chase out with Turtle, E and Drama at the Club du Jour in Vegas or L.A. and still hope to avoid serious media scrutiny when things don’t go his way. The overall profile level of Romo’s has shrunken now that he’s not with Jessica, now that he is spending his Bye week studying film (on U.S. soil, no less) and now that his one vice seems to be golf. So I credit Romo for his off-the-field awareness and decision making. It’s a testament to the fact that he DOES take his job very seriously and that a $67 million contract doesn’t have to make you a dipstick. To those people who say golf is a distraction for him, I say you’re crazy. Considering the vices that some QB’s out there are wrestling with, I’m perfectly fine with 36 holes on a Sunday morning. Yup, perfectly fine.
So where are we? Well, as with any QB in the NFL, Tony has got his warts. He also has some pretty impressive abilities which he has been able to harness while becoming more of the team leader for an organization with big team goals and less so the ESPN Sportscenter highlight guy. I’ll restate the obvious. Romo’s legacy will not be measured by anything other than the Super Bowls he wins. While that wouldn’t be the case if he was the QB for Cincinnati or Jacksonville or Kansas City, it is because he is the QB for America’s most important and highest profile NFL franchise, our Dallas Cowboys. And no, I haven’t forgotten about the misery brought on by the stints from the likes of Quincy Carter, Chad Hutchinson and Ryan Leaf. But that is a non sequitur now. The two canvasses upon which the portrait of Tony Romo will eventually be painted are set. One already has Staubach and Aikman and Five Blings (the actual blings, not me) on there. The other has Don Meredith, Danny White, Steve Pelleur and others. The bar by which success is measured has been set high by his predecessors and he now has to figure out which group he belongs with.
If he wants to be mentioned in the same breath with Roger and Troy, he’ll need to continue to improve at a rapid pace. I believe he can do it.
GO COWBOYS!
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I agree with this
“If he wants to be mentioned in the same breath with Roger and Troy, he’ll need to continue to improve at a rapid pace. I believe he can do it.”
Now I’ll read what comes before.
Ok, I read it, think I'lll start reading the last page of books
Every QB that ever won a SuperBowl had a great Team with him. I agree with most, if not all of what you have said. It helped that our team didn’t have to play through as many Romoisms last year. Now we need to get the lead and a killer attitude.
He deserves a lot of credit for his improvements
…but he’s not there yet.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
without reading this
I predict Terry will either give you a +1 or “I disagree”
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
My Beer Blog: http://tiltingsuds.wordpress.com/
Sorry it's a novel
I’m leaving for vacation in a week and needed to get this out but didn’t have time to edit it down…
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
You've done it again 5Blings
There’s always something provocative about your posts. Same with this one. Particularly, the premise that Romo checks off the deep ball too soon. I can’t exactly dispute that, but in truth I think that could be a bi-product of Romo not really thinking anyone will actually get a step on a defender deep. I seem to recall a bit more deep stuff in the T.O. days cause he could get behind the defense, or at least pose that threat. I don’t think we really have that now. And yes, including Miles. I have suspicion that Ogletree can provide that, but perhaps not, since he wasn’t utilized like that and now is apparently having trouble progressing. Hopefully, Dez is gonna demonstrate that knack. When I think of red zone woes, I tend to think of it more as Garretts shortcomings. Things such as the Barber fiasco against SD, or 2 TE, 3 WR sets on 1st down against zone vs. the Vikings, come to mind. You could also toss in the Hurd vs Bailey deal in Denver. I haven’t really touched on my displeasure with Garrett in an in depth manner on this board, but in a nutshell I place the predominance of our point scoring problems squarely on his shoulders. Especially, considering the “firepower” we’ve had in recent years. I quotate firepower, because with Garrett around, that notion is just supposed. Having said that, your points on Romos’ continued progress are quite valid and not lost on me, at all. Another really good post by you.
Thanks s33
I’m glad T.O. is gone and that is evident in everything I’ve ever said about the issue. At the same time, Dallas has been unable to replace his “presence”. T.O. came to us at a time when he had surely lost a step athletically, but no one that I have ever seen was as good at hip fakes, shoulder fakes and setting up CB’s as T.O. was in his prime.
Maybe Miles or Dez will develop into that kind of player (he obviously has the build and tools) but T.O. is a first ballot HOF’er because he was so darned good at his craft and he wanted to be the best in a way that consumed him.
As for Romo checking off too soon from the deep routes, I think he has to get better blocking first, then he has to do what Tom Brady does so well – namely to keep his eyes focused deep downfield. He’s got open receivers who can make the play.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Romo also had plenty of bombs
to Terry Glenn and even Crayton in the 2006-07 time frame. Especially 2006.
Totally agree
…and you know why? He had been the understudy to a guy who had mastered the art of keeping his eyes locked downfield (to his eventual demise, actually) and that helped Romo early on.
That’s not about personnel (please…Crayton?). It’s about hanging in there and letting his guys uncover…
Good catch!
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Again I say...Crayton?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
you missed it
I was pointing out that if Crayton can get open deep (as DavidH22 pointed out), then that erodes the idea that it’s all about personnel. Crayton isn’t a speed demon.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
+1
As frustrated as I was last season with the Cowboys in the Red Zone, we have to realize that it was just that….the COWBOYS in the Red Zone, not Romo, that struggled. And for that, I look at Garrett. He runs an otherwise really great game, but he seems to struggle more than anyone else once they cross the 20.
Football is an incredible game. Sometimes it's so incredible, it's unbelievable. --
Tom Landry
by Pnut Gallery on Jun 18, 2010 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions
You think it was Garrett and not the negative yardage plays?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Negative yardage plays?
So are YOU now saying that it was negative yardage plays and not Romo’s performance that hurt us in the Red Zone? How many of those plays penalties were committed by Romo?
I understand you wanting Romo to
become the fiery presence in the huddle that can WILL them into the end zonebut I have my doubts about how much his presence had to do with jumpy linemen.
Football is an incredible game. Sometimes it's so incredible, it's unbelievable. --
Tom Landry
by Pnut Gallery on Jun 18, 2010 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Easy tiger
I was simply asking the question, since that point was raised by someone else.
Let’s not get hyper-sensitive, K?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Not getting sensitive
Just pointing out that you suddenly went from writing a fan post saying that Romo was responsible for our Red Zone woes to saying that it was actually negative yardage plays.
I wasn’t sure where your argument came from, that’s all. I have no problem with you questioning my opinion on Garrett’s calls, but I was a bit befuddled by your rebuttal since your Fan Post was about Romo’s failures. I was just curious where you were coming from.
Football is an incredible game. Sometimes it's so incredible, it's unbelievable. --
Tom Landry
by Pnut Gallery on Jun 19, 2010 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions
Actually, I didn't write that at all...
you should re-read my text and then re-think what I really was suggesting.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Sorry 5Blings
for any redundancy. Just caught the Tony handicapped by Roy sentence.
No worries
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
As always
you make a bunch of awesome points.
The only one I disagree with is the “slow starts” notion – Romo has a long history of starting slow, but I thin you need to look at the last 11 games of the season in a different context than the first 5, when he was clearly struggling with playing safe vs. his normal style and the resulting accuracy issues.. And those last 11, we actually had a bunch of quick starts.
The deep ball point would be my biggest critcism of Romo (though mine is slightly broader). I think he definitely does not stick with his #2 and 3 wrs as they go through their routes. If they are not open immediately, he looks for Austin and Witten almost exclusively. I won’t pretend to know how many deep routes Garrett called last year, but my guess is Tony looked off them a little too quick, as you say. The counter point to this would be that our receivers are patrick crayton (a reliable possesion wr) and Roy Williams (unquantifiable), and maybe Romo was right in making this decision. Outside of Austin, we had no deep threat, and I think Austin’s effect was limited by poor OL play.
While the red zone is an issue, I think you’d find that his turnovers have come in games where we were down big (GB) or had a sizeable lead (Philly) and without those, his rating goes up a lot. But overall, I think Romo is just not made for the red zone – this is where it really helps to have the prototypical qb. Maybe I’m totally wrong (an interesting guy to look up would be Brees). But then again, Brees seems to me to have better vision than Romo (and anyone for that matter), which would help in the red zone.
Would be very interested to see if the "Romo starting slow" holds water statistically
My guess is it doesn’t
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jun 18, 2010 2:13 AM CDT up reply actions
It does
and it’s part of a post I’ll have up next week. His passer rating in the 1st quarter over his career is around 75, his career rating in all other quarters is slightly over 100.
by One.Cool.Customer on Jun 18, 2010 2:43 AM CDT up reply actions
I think he rocks in in the 4th, correct?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Well...
Career 4th quarter: 96.6
Career total: 95.6
by One.Cool.Customer on Jun 18, 2010 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions
What are they by quarter?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I remember the 2006 game against the Giants at the Meadowlands
Romo was incredibly uppity to start the game, and Parcells mentioned it afterwards. I definitely buy that theory, but he did seem to improve in the second half of 2009.
That's what I'd say, anecdotally, too
…but I’m waiting for OCC to validate.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Sorry to have kept you waiting
but these threads that you create scare me off sometimes, because I have to find enough time in one sitting to go through all the hundreds of new comments.
Anyway, the 4th quarter number above was wrong, the correct ratings are Q1: 74.3, Q2: 98.9, Q3: 102.0, Q4: 104.1
by One.Cool.Customer on Jun 22, 2010 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions
I'll try to keep them shorter
…or maybe fewer people could disagree with me.
;-)
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
So you aren't going to throw a comment towards my thread.
I see how you are, you dirty SOB.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Jun 22, 2010 6:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Okay, now apologize...
SHEESH! it was only up like less than a day. I’ll monitor the chatter in case someone says something stupid (highly likely) to infuriate me.
;-)
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Dang, sorry
I’ve noticed the same trend, but I also think he made progress on that in those noteworthy last 11 games or so of last season. We could NOT have won against New Orleans if he hadn’t blasted two touchdowns on the board to start out with…Did something similar with the Eagles, too, as I recall. Again, anecdotal with a small data set, but it still denotes a possible change in that particular aspect of his game.
God Bless Texas
by dwarfknight64 on Jun 18, 2010 8:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Half right
He did come out of the gate with a bang in the New Orleans game, beating their “really fast” defense over the top early.
It set the tone for the game IMO.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Thanks fb
I have no idea how the whole Redball play calling vs. Romo staying with his progressions thing works relative to deep throws, but I know it wasn’t good. Maybe OCC has access to some secret info?
On the question of slow starts, I don’t normally do this, but I went back and looked at the 11 games you asked about. Guess what our average # of points scored in the 1st quarter over that span was?
It was 4.36
And guess what it was if you strip out the New Orleans game (the one game where I think we DID start fast because we threw over the top)?
It was a whopping 3.4
Let me be clear. That means, on average, Dallas got all of a FG’s average worth of points in the first half over 10 of their last 11 games.
So, you can see why I might disagree with your statement:
And those last 11, we actually had a bunch of quick starts.
As far as the red zone, I refuse to believe that Romo is built for it. He and Redball have to figure out what Romo does best and turn it into a strength. Maybe it’s more floating pockets? More bootlegs? I dunno.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I should really look up stats before I post them
I could swear we had a 3 or 4 game streak of first quarter tds, but I appear to be wrong.
taking out the GB and Washington games, when our offense really did nothing at all untill the game ending 2 minute drill, we scored 48 in 9 games. Thats over 5 points a game, which isn’t awful at all.
You could argue that our offense was pretty much abysmal from GB-Philly,and even the first quarter td we got in the Philly game was a lot of luck (after a long crayton catch I think). Take out that philly game, and in that case we have 41 in the remaining 8, which is still over 5 a game.
Regardless, I felt our first quarter offense was vastly improved compared to previous seasons. I rarely felt like it was holding us back in November and December. In those 3games I mentioned, we scored a total of 13 points in the first 50 minutes of each game. I think its fair to say that those games had nothing to do with “first quarter struggles”.
No worries
So given all of that, do you or don’t you think we, characteristically speaking, start slow?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Up untill week 5 of this season
I’d absolutely agree with you and say yes. But things seemed to turn around then (minus the 3 games where we were brutal offensively).
Its still to be determined for me – for the last 4 YEARS we’ve started slow, so I’m not going to switch the way I feel about that subject because of a 10 game stretch. But there are signs for hope in that area.
Between reducing turnovers and improved play in the first quarter, I think Romo vastly improved on two major holes in his game last year.
So over those 4 years...
What do you think is the root cause(s) of the slow starts?
Play calling?
QB struggles?
O-line lapses?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I seem to recall
that one of my biggest complaints about the Cowboys offense was that they never scored a TD on their opening drive. They went like 2 years before finally accomplishing it against New Orleans…then against the Redskins…and then against the Eagles. Onece they broke the seal the results came flooding in.
I recall you saying that too, DH22
Props!
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Very Nice Post 5B, I thoroughly enjoyed all of it...and only disagreed with half of it ;^)
Here’s the point what we seem to disagree about most…so I wanted to do it justice:
Don’t believe the media/marketing hype machine – Whether you’re all about the Blings in judging the importance of a QB or all about the Benjamin’s in judging the importance of a person, you make three fundamental errors in judgment:
1st – That a popular perception necessarily equates to a greater truth. Yes the blings will get you more media coverage, just like playing in NY, Dallas (football), or LA (all other sports). More media coverage means more people know your name, and sing your praises; this popularity can even get you into the hall of fame over more deserving candidates (see Namath, Joe). What it can’t do is make you the better QB, or your team better because they have you and not some lesser known but more talented guy on a less talented team from a smaller town.
2nd – Hero worship. That football teams live and die based on their QB more so than the other way around. No one will dispute that QB is the most important position, but any single player represents less than 2% of the roster and less than 5% of the starters (though that designation is decreasingly relevant with the prevalence of sub packages in modern football). QBs get paid about 2-3 times what comparably talented players at other positions make, and by themselves they can probably account for as much as 10-15% of a teams success, but that’s about the limit. If QBs were really more valuable to a teams success than this, teams would spend more on them and trim payroll elsewhere.
3rd – that some people are born chokers, while others are born champions. This has been looked at time and again, and the only things that consistently separates athletes that perform well at increasing levels of pressure (i.e. moving from high school to college to pro’s) is effort and experience…beyond that it’s luck (or a lack of it) from small sample sizes. Ray Allen recently hit 7 3-pointers in a row in one game and then missed 8 in a row the next game…hot and cold hands, clutch players and choke artists don’t really exist at the pro-level, just the law of averages. Put another way, a good regular season QB IS ALWAYS a good playoff QB, they just don’t always get enough chances for that truth to become clear. The predictive power of history over future (given enough chances) isn’t just how football works or how statistics works, it’s how the world works.
We all like to simplify (faster and easier to understand), personify (we’re social creatures and fascinated by people) and glorify (because finding a connection with greatness is transcendent) – turning "the face of the franchise" into a gladiator or general who could lead any rag-tag crew to glory. It makes for a compelling story, but that’s all it is, "The fabulous fable of the QB who could do it all." This story makes sense for business/marketing, and it’s why people spend a lot more on Tim Tebow’s jerseys than Otto Gram’s crackers…but it doesn’t make Tim the better QB.
Find the Superbowl winning teams that were just average EXCEPT for their QB…and you’ll have done the impossible.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jun 18, 2010 2:10 AM CDT reply actions
Yeah, here's where that all falls apart...
The real world.
Make your comparisons;
Romo vs. Roethlisberger
The fact is that most of the NFL fan world knows Romo for a bobbled snap, Jessica Simpson and the inability to win important games in December and January. That’s it.
That same universe of people know Roethlisberger for winning two Blings and being a moron with women (hmmm, maybe Romo and Big Ben are more alike than I thought).
Personally, if forced to choose, I’d take the latter. If people are honest, I think everyone would.
We’re talking about his legacy being written right now. He’s not 25 like Matt Ryan. He’s got 3-4 years left and he’s got a single playoff win and some ugly losses under his belt.
Now, here’s where we agree; Romo could take the next steps I am suggesting he take and the team could still not win it all. It’s a distinct possibility. It’s a team game. If Doug Free is a tire fire at LT, well, Romo won’t be throwing many TD’s from the PUP list. However, that does not, in and of itself, relieve Romo of the responsibility to continue to improve.
Finally, your basketball analogy was awful. No one confuses Ray allen with the most dominant player in the game (who he guarded most of the series) in one, Kobe Bryant. But even in a game where Kobe was playing an awful game (talk about cold hands), he was still the emotional leader of his team, found ways to distribute and rebound, and did again what he is known for doing…finding a way to win the bling.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
We completely agree - most people only remember the blings and highlights
Most people are casual fans who make judgments based on playoff games, ESPN highlights and the watercooler chit-chat that follows. It’s simpler and easier that way, so I understand the appeal for most…but not for you Blings, you’re not the average casual fan and can’t pretend to be. Most people probably remember Pres. Bush #1 for throwing up on the Japanese prime minister and Clinton for his Lewinsky. That doesn’t make those the defining moments of their presidencies…at least not for people who think beyond the surface and sensational.
I’d much rather have Romo than Roethlisberger. And whether you’re looking at the Superbowl Steelers teams or the Saints from last year, the biggest thing they BOTH have over us isn’t their QB, it’s their offensive lines and safeties.
I think your position stems from wanting to believe that QBs make everyone around them much better, or worse, and to a degree you’re certainly right. But I think you’re significantly overestimating how great that impact can be. In basketball, sure, but a single player is 20% of his team, and rarely if ever needs to leave the game. In baseball, if the player is a pitcher, they can shut down the other team practically by themselves. Football isn’t that type of game. Joe Montana couldn’t lead the Chiefs to a Superbowl, Steve Young couldn’t prevent Tampa Bay from being awful, and TO was great whether he had Young, Romo, McNabb, or Jeff Garcia throwing to him. That shouldn’t diminish Young or Montana, the same way blings don’t make Aikman or Roethlisberger so much better than Romo or Danny White.
Let’s come back to this after the season plays itself out, and if we don’t win it all I’m fairly confident our offensive line and safeties will be a bigger reason than QB as long as Romo is healthy.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jun 18, 2010 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions
But Montana did...
take a moribund KC team and lead them to one of the most thrilling playoff victories in the history of the game. How many QB’s could do THAT?
What those Saints and Steeler teams had “over us” is a lot of conjecture. You could make an argument that we had better secondaries, better defenses, better somethings. That point goes nowhere, IMO.
The question was, would you take Ben with is warts (and his blings) over the guy we have and his warts (and his lack of blings). If you’re a fan of the same team I am, then you know it’s about reaching the top and getting the bling.
I do indeed believe that great players (and, more important, great leaders) make people around them better than they could be without them. They instill a type of confidence and belief that winning is not only possible, but the likely outcome. The blings absolutely, positively, unequivocally make Aikman and Ben better than Romo and White. It is what it is.
Whatever the outcome of the season, I think we agree that the QB’s get too much credit and too much blame for the team outcomes.
I think we disagree on the idea that we can change it just because our guy hasn’t fared as well as we’d have hoped. He’ll have to do that by leading the team to a bling.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
But Montana didn't lead KC to the Superbowl so he was a failure, right?
Or can a QB not win, or even reach, the Superbowl and still be considered a great success?
I believe he can and Montana (with the Chiefs) was. Just as Peyton’s greatness transcends his otherwise mediocre level of playoff success.
You acknowledge that QBs can be great w/o getting bling, and also that QBs have won bling without being great…yet adamantly cling to the “fact” that blings are what define and seperate QBs.
How does your head not explode?
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jun 18, 2010 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Hang on now...
If that was the ONLY accomplishment Montana could hang his hat on, then I’d say he was defnitely NOT anywhere near the success he turned out to be.
And let’s not use your words, let’s use mine…
Never did I say Romo or anyone who doesn’t win a bling is a failure. We’re talking about the primacy of the bling in terms of measures of greatness.
Make sense?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Make's sense, though you're inconsistent, and I still disagree
Two questions:
1) How can you judge Peyton to be better than Brady, Montana or Bradshaw when he has so clearly failed, comparatively, based on the measure that you (not me) have laid forth as the ultimate barometer of a QB?
2) Does the Bling Barometer apply only to QBs, or to other positions as well?
If other positions should also share credit/blame for the bling, would you agree that:
Cowboy A – a 3-time superbowl winner and superbowl MVP, without whom your moniker may well be 4Blings,
Should almost certainly be more well known and revered than
Cowboy B – Who was part of very talented teams but kept losing in the playoffs, never reaching the superbowl…until he left the Cowboys finally won his bling with the NFC East rival Giants.
But for me, my memories and heart are way, way fonder of Everson Walls than they are of Larry Brown…because you can judge the success of the player and what he brought to the team independent of the team’s success, or the bling.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jun 18, 2010 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Fair questions
1) He’s won the bling and he’s won the Conference title twice. Just like Kobe, I expect he’s not done. Now remember, my view that he’s the best is based on just that, my view. You may disagree. Who do YOU think is the best and why?
2) No. QB’s are the most influential players in terms of the game’s outcome. No time in the game’s history has one position held such sway over games and had protective rules made on their behalf. A top-flight left tackle like Ryan Clady or a dominant CB like Revis doesn’t cannot, generally speaking, determine the outcome of a contest the way a QB can.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
My QB candidate for the GOAT
Would have to be Otto Graham. Why you ask? Because his record is pretty amazing and many ways incomparable.
BLING
- His 1st year in the league he lead an expansion football team (the Browns) to win the league championship (pre-superbowl). He went on to win championships his 1st 5 years in the league.
- After winning his 6th championship in 9 years he retired, only to be coaxed out of retirement when the Browns struggled in camp the next year. He promptly lead them to win another championship, his 7th in 10 years, before retiring for good.
STATS (per Pro-football-reference.com)
He played in run dominated era of football, but put up stats that rival the best of all time:
- His yards per attempt average (9) still stands as the best all time.
- His final QB rating of 86.6, is tied with Brett Favre at #16 all time and ahead of Dan Marino…the next highest rated QB who played with him was Norm Van Brocklin at #95
RESPECT
In 10 pro years, he was:
- 1st team all-pro 7 times
- 2nd team all-pro 3 times
Later he was enshrined in both the College and Pro Football Hall’s of Fame
IRREPLACEABLE
- The year after he retired the Browns had their 1st losing season ever
- Jim Brown, arguably the greatest RB ever, at a time when RBs dominated the game came along the following year…but only lead the Browns to a single championship in his 9 year career.
- In 54 years the Browns have won 8 championships…Otto lead 7 of ’em.
HUH…WOW
- Before Bo, there was Otto – an All-American basketball player in college, he not only won a football championship his rookie year he also won a pro basketball championship that same year before quitting basketball to focus on football full time.
Since is wasn’t modern, you can’t say with certainty that he’s better than Montana, Marino, or Manning…but I sure don’t think you can say definitively that he wasn’t.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jun 22, 2010 12:59 AM CDT up reply actions
Graham would actually be right there competing for my #2
Even with the grainy highlights of past years, it seems that he possessed the kind of talent that would have made him a great QB even in the modern era.
He made all of the throws. He was accurate and he was playing in an era where receivers were getting destroyed as they came off of the line. He was truly one of the game’s best.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Sorry for asking why your head doesn't explode
I like most of your writing so much – because its smart, witty and passionate – that this disconnect we’re having made me lose my own head there, and I apologize.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jun 18, 2010 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions
don't sweat it, I'm thick skinned
I’ve taken much worse shellings from Fighter15 and Terry.
I appreciate the fact that you take the time to engage.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Poor use of the words "Absolutely positively, unequovically."
1st, it’s not unequovical because Left Coast is arguing the point
2nd, I don’t know that I agree that a ring makes a QB “better”, because then you are saying that, for instance, if Peyton Manning or Tom Brady had been drafted by the chiefs and never won anything because his offensive line was letting him be eaten by defenders on a regular basis, they wouldn’t be better quarterbacks than…oh, I guess any other non Ring-ed QB
God Bless Texas
by dwarfknight64 on Jun 18, 2010 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions
And that's EXACTLY what I'm saying
The game’s history is littered with productive, even prolific, QB’s who’ve had quite a bit of statistical success.
Nobody mentions Dan Fouts’ name in the same breath with Terry Bradshaw (which is sad, but nonetheless true). Have you seen Bradshaw’s stats and compared them to Fouts’?
And I’ve said I reject the argument out of hand in the original post (again, sorry it was so long), so the use of those terms you cited is more than fair, thank you very much.
:-)
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Okay
I think that people would agree with you, but you DO understand the point. You’ve atgued that it isn’t the right way to look at it, but it is, nonetheless, how MOST do.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
So...because you rejected them out of hand...
It hurts my brain…:P
God Bless Texas
by dwarfknight64 on Jun 22, 2010 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions
I would definitely take Romo over Rothlisberger.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on Jun 18, 2010 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions
I totally agree with you in he Romo vs. Roethlisberger debate.
But lets face it. The only 3 qbs to up their game in the playoffs the last 10 years have been Warner, Ben and Brady. None of the rest have been overly impressive in the playoffs, though brees is probably the next guy in line.
As for Romo vs. Ben…I’ll take Romo any day of the week based on his work ethic and frankly, because his teammates think very highly of him. Romo may never be able to buy time with his size and will his team to victory in a playoff game the way Ben does, but I’ll take the guy that gives his all over the guy who is just as likely to kick himself out of the league with stupidity as he is to win a supebowl.
Dead on.
I think Brees definitely belongs in that conversation too. While he didn’t have the sexiest postseason last year, he was basically perfect with no turnovers and an unheard of 80 percent completion rate in the Super Bowl.
he probably does
I don’t know, maybe I have some sort of bias against him. Hes just yet to wow me and make a memorably great play or have that special game like the 3 I mentioned.
I'd put him right there with Ben.
Yeah, basically what he did in the playoffs was milking the Rich Gannon formula for all it’s worth. But is that really any different than the way Brady meticulously picked apart defenses albeit that Brady had much lesser receiving corps?
In the grand scheme of things, it should definitely be pointed out that Brees didn’t have to win games by going down the field to lead his team to the Super Bowl but it in his favor he was pretty flawless at doing what he did.
thats fair
Though Brady made Deion Branch look like an All-Pro. The guy had Donovan McNabb quality wrs, and unlike McNabb he won with them, and their offense played a legiitmate role in playoff wins. One of his best performances was the Denver playoff loss, where he had everything going against him and played ALMOST perfectly (aside from the Bailey pick).
I'd add Eli Manning and Drew Brees to that list...
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Eli?
Not at all. The guy has performed very poorly in 2 of his 3 playoff losses. And their SB run – he did not do nearly enough to be mentioned with those names. In the Dallas game, he did very little aside from beating up jacque reeves, and he really benefited from some blown tackles. The Giants offense was pretty stagnant that game. He played well against TB and GB, and ok against the Pats, though hes given a little too much credit imo for the Tyree play, where his throw was well…Favreian. It worked, but it was a prayer and 9 times out of 10 its either incomplete or intercepted.Without that throw, his offense puts up 6 points in a superbowl. Meanwhile, Ben, Brady and Warner have all made legitimately great plays (plural) to help their team win playoff games/superbowls.
Eli isn’t a bad qb – imo, he entered that top 8 realm last season that Romo’s been in for a while now. He sure brings his A game against us every year (minus that playoff victory ironically). But its a mistake to call him a great playoff performer.
Eli, as much as you may hate him, did exactly what he needed to do in that great run
He limited his mistakes and managed the game. Then, when the team needed him to make a play or two, he made it.
That’s why I’d put him in the category mentioned above.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
yeah, throwing a ball up for grabs
and getting woefully lucky in completing that pass to Tyree was really managing the game and limiting his mistakes…right…if Samuels catches the other bad pass earlier that drive you wouldn’t be talking about him in the same light, thats for sure
In Romo we Trust
IF???
Let’s not deal in “IF’s”, okay?
Eli DID make the play.
Asante DIDN’T make the play.
Romo DID drop the ball in Seattle.
Scott Norwood DIDN’T make the kick.
Dallas DID draft Aikman with their #1 pick.
The very notion of using “if’” as the certerpiece to an argument involving sports is asinine. It’s a ridiculous, fantastical endeavor.
IF your aunt had nuts, she’d be your uncle.
So now what?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
okay take the Samuals comment out
The pass to Tyree was still awful, completed or not. Throwing a ball up for grabs is not managing or limiting mistakes any way you want to look at it.
If Romo makes that same throw, you’d be criticizing him till the cows came home.
In Romo we Trust
If Romo wins a bling...
all the previous criticisms (especially the crazy ones like his weight, his work ethic, etc.) become less meaningful, wouldn’t you say?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
see, thats your ultimate problem
Romo isn’t capable of winning a bling..thats a team achievement, Romo can only contribute to a bling, not win or lose it on his own.
So no, his criticisims are no more less meaningful bling or no bling, especially the ones which you cite which are absolute nonsense regardless.
In Romo we Trust
Two words...
Danny White.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
That isn't really a fair judgement either though.
That has more to do with the fact that Dallas has such a rich history of QBs than anything.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Jun 21, 2010 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Which I put in my original post...
The Dallas Cowboys have had more than their fair share of great QB’s, several of whom have been inducted into the Hall of Fame. As fans, you could easily argue that we’re spoiled by the long history of outstanding play by Dallas’ QB’s over decades of record-setting individual and team performances. As a result, the bar is set very high for anyone who dares take up the mantle of QB for our beloved Cowboys.
These are all unfair comparisons, but that’s what happens when you play QB for a team whose history is riddled with some of the game’s greatest names.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Gotcha.
QB definitly is the most important position in all of sports.
That being said, I think you give more credit towards them than necessary.
Terry sigh is right to a major extent.
Eli Manning has a Super Bowl ring, but that ring doesn’t come if his defense doesn’t hold the record setting Patriots to 14 points.
Peyton Manning, arguably the best QB of all time, probably doesn’t have a ring if not for Bob Sanders.
It all goes hand in hand.
Romo WILL ultimately be judged by if he has a Super Bowl ring or not, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he should be.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Jun 21, 2010 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed
No one great player ever did it by themself. At the same time, great players have inspired others to elevate their intensity and passion in a way that helped lead the team to victory.
Since the QB tends, more often than not, to be looked towards for leadership in that regard, it is that reason that I think Romo may have to be more vocal (and maybe more of a taskmaster) in times of trouble if he is to elevate his team.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I agree to an extent.
I also think there is a bit of luck to go along with it as well.
Drew Bree’s is a GREAT QB, and I would think that whether he won a SB or not… that being said, they really should have lost at home to Minnesota. That was the strangest set of fumbles that I’ve ever seen.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Jun 21, 2010 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Two words...
Oblate spheroid
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Brees, by virtue of winning the bling, elevated himself...
from the list of the highly prolific to the list of Champions.
Down the road, the Minnesota game will be a trivia question that 99% of the population won’t be able to answer.
That’s the way these things go.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
It's true.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Jun 21, 2010 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions
See my sad Danny White memory below...
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Danny White was a great qb
To be compared to him is certainly no insult by any stretch. If the teams he played for had defenses like Aikman and Staubach, he’d have those blings you covet so much.
In Romo we Trust
He isn't viewed as a great QB except by us homers
So while I share a great deal of your admiration for him, you and I would be in the minority.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Not true at all
Anyone with any type of true football knowledge knows White was a great qb…quarantee if you ask defenders from the 80s about him they’d tell you he was really good and doesn’t get the credit he deserves because of moronic perceptions that the casual fan adheres to.
In Romo we Trust
Casual fan buys tickets, jerseys, hot dogs, BEER
This is a truly American sport, unlike baseball and basketball.
Again, it’s true, you just despise the reality of it.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Then we may as well call Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer great playoff performers
they did just as much as Eli. Managed the game and made the key throw or two when they needed to.
Meanwhile, the 3 I mentioned carried the team on their back at various points in their career in the playoffs. Eli’s defense shut down the 3 highest scoring offenses in the regular season, and you give him credit for having to “manage the game and made a play or two” because of it. Ridiculous. Look at Ben in 2005 or 2008 or Warner in 2008 or the game against the Packers in 2009 – it took fantastic play at points to win games for those two. Pay at a level Eli hasn’t touched (or Romo for that matter)
I agree with Terry. This “they either made plays or they didn’t” argument is ridiculous. The only difference between Eli in 2007 and Favre in 2009 is an INT dropped in one game and caught in another. The qb should NOT get credit for something out of his control.
But they do!
Every tipped ball by a WR that results in an INT is STILL…wait for it…an INT!!!!
And nobody remembers who tipped it. Nobody. Ever.
I don’t say I agree with it, but I know what a strike looks like and I know what a ball looks like. That’s the way I choose to call them.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
you would rather believe in perception than reality I guess
and don’t say they’re the same because they’re not.
In Romo we Trust
How is my example about INT's a PERCEPTION?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Nobody except the front office, which evaluates the qb
and fans of course.
I think you’d find that the large majority of fans don’t think of Eli as an elite qb, playoffs or regular season. Most fans I know have the ability to recognize that Eli wasn’t the major reason the Giants won the superbowl that year.
If they win another on the back of their passing game (not out of the question as I think Eli improved a lot last year), that may convince me otherwise, but theres nothing in his 7 playoff games to suggest he is an elite performer. Honestly, they look pretty similar to Romo’s except his defense (in his SB run) and oline have played better.
Again
This isn’t about who the “better” QB is, because allegiances then come into play and dominate who thinks who is best.
Honestly, why would I pick a cowboys blog site to try and argue the merits of Eli’s abilities at the position being better than our own QB?
The fact of the matter is that if both of their careers ended today, Manning would be more memorable 20 years from now mainly because his name would be enshrined in the section of the HOF that describes the game’s history of Super Bowl Champions.
Romo would be another Danny White. The (unfortunate) truth is that, in circles outside of ours, Romo’s name gets associated more with the bobble in Seattle, being a great golfer, his relationship with Jessica and his feud with T.O.
You can argue that it isn’t right, that people are stupid and that the world shouldn’t be the way it is, but I’m not sure what that is going to do other than make certain Cowboy fans feel better.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I don't care about public perceptions
Cowboys fans know Romo is great regardless if he ever wins a SB and his numbers someday will make him very memorable in the eyes of football historians.
What the average casual fan thinks of Romo I could less and as a Cowboys fan neither should you.
In Romo we Trust
I live in a different world Terry
Mine blends in with all gradations of fandom.
It also interacts with fans from other teams as well.
I don’t have the “luxury” of locking myself in a room in PA and blocking out the rest of the world.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I live in Texas, and I don't quite get why you're
so preoccupied with perception over reality either. I’m sure it bothers Danny White that he never won a Super Bowl, and I know it bums out Cowboys fans, but do you really think anyone else gives a crap? And quite honestly, as I’ve already said, the likes of QBs like Mark Rypien have SB rings, but how many fans out there even remember him outside of the fans of his team? As for perceptions of Romo, again, why should I care what fans in Tampa Bay or wherever think of him? From what I can tell, a few years after the glory days are over, the players most fans remember are the ones who get cool broadcasting gigs. Romo is good looking and articulate; you may see him on Monday Night Football one of these seasons.
Well, it's just another perspective; it's really
more that it’s one I don’t get, which is fine. That’s what makes it worth debating.
Fair question
I would posit that greatness is defined moreso by the mainstream’s view of how a player performed than the musings of a devout follower, like those on BTB.
I have already posted my contention that the bar for greatness in Dallas is even higher than in other cities because of what has preceded the current QB. In fact, the example of Danny white is a perfect one. we could sit at the bar for hours pounding our fists over several Fat Tire’s about why White WAS, a great QB, but wasn’t viewed that way by the large majority of people.
You ask why I care about that? Because it’s that majority that elects presidents, senators, governors and HOF’er’s. You should care too, lest you become a disenfranchised angry militiaman living in some hideaway in Montana (or worse, Philly!) waiting for a class war to begin.
On a side note, I don’t think Romo’s sights are on that kind of gig post-football.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Oh bartender!!!

"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Alrighty, I have to jump in here briefly. Where women are concerned, unless there's
a whole lot I don’t know, Romo and Roethlisberger are not anything alike. There ain’t nothing similar between Romo dating a doofus (and finally having the brains to dump her publicity-seeking tush) and Roethlisberger’s repeated charges of sexual assault. Not remotely. Just sayin’.
It was tongue-in-cheek, Fernie
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
BTW
I think New Orleans was just average, except for their brilliant QB.
Would you trade their offense (sans QB) for ours?
Would you trade their defense for ours?
Would you trade their head coach…wait…okay, never mind, that one shouldn’t apply.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Last time I checked we beat New Orleans in New Orleans. They have the ring, but they scare me in no real way. In fact, I would go so far to say that (in my opinion) had New Orleans had to go to Minnesota in the playoffs we would have seen a Manning-Favre Super Bowl.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on Jun 18, 2010 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions
In other words, let's not pretend like they were lightyears ahead of us thanks to one Drew Brees.
I think if Tony played in the New Orleans system that they would have still had a great chance at winning the Super Bowl.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on Jun 18, 2010 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Conjecture
…but my point was that, outside of the QB spot, Dallas is a far more talented team than New Orleans. Do you disagree?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I agree we are more talented and I think that was reflected by us beating them.
My point was simply that just because Brees won the Super Bowl doesn’t mean that he is way ahead of Tony in terms of skill. Plus, when I am being honest, I think it speaks to Tony’s skill that the only players I would only consider taking over him are Peyton Manning and Drew Brees.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on Jun 18, 2010 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Ya I disagree
OLine – Saints
Safeties – Saints
ILBs – slight edge saints
WR’s – slight edge saints (Roy’s inefficiency killed us)
RBs – push
DL – push
OLBs – Dallas
CBs – Dallas
TEs – Dallas
Saints biggest edge on us was a weak schedule paired with a strong home field advantage.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jun 18, 2010 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions
I would take us ar RB
but otherwise, you’re right on. And the OL difference is just massive. Look at their game vs. Minny against ours and its blatantly obvious
You'd take their ILB's over ours?
…and their WR’s?
And child please, EVERYONE had better safeties than Dallas.
:-)
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Yes, Yes, and...could go either way
ILBs – Yes – They play a lot of 4-3, so it’s not apples-to-apples, but Jonathan Vilma the former rookie of the year and multiple pro-bowler who’s in his football prime is the best ILB on both teams by a decent margin.
WRs – Yes – Austin was the best, but Colston isn’t far behind, and their balance, depth and consistency was must better than ours, mostly because Roy was so frequently a flat tire on our Porsche offense
RBs – tough call – I like ours better, but the Saints actually ran a more balanced run/pass offense than we did, and their RBs outperformed ours in both the passing game and in getting into the end zone.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jun 18, 2010 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Hmmmm
Interesting LCC…
You said the d-line is a push and the ILB’s lean NO’s way. Yet, when I look at how teams were able to run on the Saints versus the trouble they had running on Dallas, it doesn’t add up.
Can you elaborate on why you chose the way you did?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Our NT is > then their DT's. Our DEs?...not so much
We beat them at run defense, hands down. That the Saints START Remi Ayodele, who couldn’t even make our squad as a back up should tell you all you need to know there. Their DEs, though, are strong pass rushers. They racked up 25 sacks among them, which is 6 better than our fearsome OLBs could manage.
You wanna give the Cowboys a slight edge, I’m not gonna fight ya on it…but if this were the Saints board I’m sure they’d be arguing the reverse.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jun 22, 2010 1:08 AM CDT up reply actions
I think, because they play a 4-3, that you have to compare the front 7's
If you look at it in those terms, whose would you take?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I like our front 7 and our overall Defense for sure
But your original point was that New Orleans was “just average” last year except for their QB…when they had arguably the best OL in football, the best Safety tandem in football, and many other good to very-good pieces.
As I said originally:
The Saints biggest edge on us was a weak schedule paired with a strong home field advantage.
But they, like us, had a very good team surrounding their QB.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jun 22, 2010 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions
I think Evans is a stud, and Nicks is a stud.
I think their tackles were okay.
I’d take our skill players over theirs any day and twice on Sunday.
I think their CB’s were as average as their Safeties were good.
I’d take our front 7 over theirs without question, especially with the late season emergence of Spencer.
Comparatively, I like the rosters of the Cowboys, Patriots, Vikings, Chargers, Ravens, Eagles, Steelers and Giants more than I like the Saints, if you remove Brees from the situation.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Jarbari Greer is REALLY good.
He’s probably one of the most underrated CB’s in the league.
However I’d definitly take our front 7.
That being said, that defense forced a TON of turnovers.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Jun 22, 2010 7:46 PM CDT up reply actions
...and they gave up a ton of yards and points
Any math I look at that compares our defense to theirs has us coming far more favorably than even I thought we would.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Yeah definitly.
But turnovers definitly help as well, when your defense is scoring tds it also takes pressure of the offense.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Jun 23, 2010 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions
The NO Offense generally scored so many points...
that teams had to pass their way back into the game, which led to unbalanced attacks and more INT’s.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
That is also true.
But that wasn’t the came in every instance.
Unfortunatly I ended up watching everyone of their games, well almost everyone of them and they were definitly a feast or famine defense.
Of course you could also atest alot of the turnovers from them playing alot of QB’s that were having 1st,2nd, or 3rd starts.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Jun 23, 2010 9:36 PM CDT up reply actions
And the NO defense caused so many turnovers
That the NO offense had good field position and scored lots of points.
Works both ways.
I’m sure in OCC’s advanced stats their are approximate conversions for how many points a turnover is worth on average. My guess is their turnover advantage nearly cancel’s out our pts. allowed advantage and our true defensive advantage wasn’t that big last year.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jun 23, 2010 9:38 PM CDT up reply actions
The answer
is coming soon to a post near you.
by One.Cool.Customer on Jun 24, 2010 5:41 AM CDT up reply actions
I wonder if you could tell what the score was when the turnovers happened
…or at least if the team that got the turnover was winning or losing?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
TOs saved their offense in the Miami and Washington game off the top of my head.
They got early turnovers against the Cards early that made them 1 dimensional very early in that game and the only reason they beat Minn was the TOs. Thats off the top of my head.
Ability is a poor mans wealth.
The main ingredient of stardom is the rest of the team.
Talent is God given, Be humble. Fame is man given, Be grateful. Conceit is self-given, Be careful.
-John Wooden-
You da man OCC!
Someday i hope to carve out time and build a decent football database of my own. Until then I’ll remain grateful that you’re here helping to bring subjective opinion closer to objective reality.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jun 24, 2010 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Brooking was a great leader
but not that great of a player, especially at the end of the year.
You’re probably right though, you need to look at LB core, or maybe frnt 7 as a whole, and ours wins both.
How many missed tackles did Brooking have?
I’d say he played beyond anyone’s wildest expectations last year. He stacked and shedded as well as anyone.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
You're selling the Saints a little short.
For one thing, they had a more well-rounded group of wide receivers. Meachem and Henderson>Roy and Crayton. Secondly, although Thomas and Bell aren’t as talented as Barber and Felix those guys actually managed to stay healthy. Also Sean Payton isn’t afflicted with the same allergy Jason Garrett is when it comes to using your explosive running back as a weapon in the passing game.
While the Saints are a pretty mediocre straight up “punch ’em in the mouth, make ’em piss their pants, take no prisoners” defense in the traditional sense, they caused a hell of a lot of turnovers which means they perfectly complimented the Saints explosive offense by giving them all those extra possessions. Just compare the fact that their ball hawking secondary only allowed 15 TD passes but vandalized opposing passers for 26 INT’s. By comparison the Cowboys only allowed 19 TD passes but only came away with a paltry 10 INT’s.
Now I don’t think the Saints are built for long term success which means Brees shouldn’t be judged too harshly if they suffer a Super Bowl hangover but I still have to give credit where credit is due to the rest of that team for what they accomplished last season.
that saints D
was also crazy fast. In most “big games” last season – in fact, all except us, they were flying all over and causing havoc for the opposition. They aren’t that great on paper, but the were an impressive unit.
I’d of course still take ours over theirs, but they don’t get enough credit.
...and that really fast defense got beat up on by Tampa...mauled, in fact
The New Orleans defense won more games on the strength of Gregg Williams’ schemes than their talent.
Watch the last Atlanta game. The NO defense was nothing special.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
watch the giants, philly, arizona and minnesota games (and a couple more)
in nearly every huge game this year, the big matchups, they played well. Even against Indy. They had their warts for sure,but they made a ton of plays, and frankly embarassed two team with a ton of offensive talent in NY and Philly.
Maybe
…but statistically (oh, I can’t believe I said that), I don’t think they pan out as having a stout D.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
No one is saying it wasn't a team effort, but Brees had an immeasurable impact
What other QB is leading the pre-game cheer?
No, Romo would not have led them all the way like Brees did. I’m quite confident of that.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I won't deny Brees is an intense guy and leader.
But a magical Brees fairy voice did not lead Tracy Porter to jump that route.
You're using one play out to make your judgement?
Teams win and lose games, it happens.
Dallas beat New Orleans, but were they the better team when you take stock of the season?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
you finally said it!!
Teams win and lose games, not QBs. Please try to remember that
In Romo we Trust
I can name the QB of every team to lose the Super Bowl...ever
I can’t say the same about the weakside linebacker in those cases.
I would wager that it’s no different for you.
Why do you think that is?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Just because a qb is the most important and popular position on the team
doesn’t mean he controls winning or losing more than other positions…thats something you obviously can’t comprehend.
Despite his importance, winning and losing still ultimately rests with all the players that take the field, not just one.
In Romo we Trust
You didn't answer the question
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
yes I did
QBs are the most popular player on any team, but again it doesn’t mean they totally control how well their team plays.
In Romo we Trust
Then you didn't READ the question
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I most certainly did
You asked why most people can remember all the starting qbs in SB history over all the weakside LBs and I said it’s because they’re the most popular player on each team.
Not rocket science, but it’s a red herring question, definitely doesn’t address the fact qbs don’t win or lose games.
In Romo we Trust
You're saying Jim McMahon was the most popular on his team?
Jay Schroeder on his?
Trent Dilfer on his?
I can keep going…but I doubt you’d want me to…
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
wait, Jay Schroeder only took a few snaps in SB XXII
so leave him out of the equation, but McMahon and Dilfer maybe weren’t the most popular but they were top 3 easily on those teams.
So yeah, keep going, I’m sure your next one will be Jeff Hostetler and BTW, naming these SB winning qbs only strengthens my argument more that qbs don’t win SBs and just because a qb has a bling doesn’t make them a great qb.
In Romo we Trust
No, it doesn't
You said the reason people always remember them is that they are the most popular player on each team.
Now you are contradicting yourself by saying they are top 3.
Can you pick a single perspective and stay put long enough so I can undermine it with your own words? Sheesh!
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
okay, I should have said among the most popular, my bad
It still doesn’t undermine my argument either way
In Romo we Trust
No...of course it doesn't
LOL
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Can you discuss a bit more why you think that way?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
because like Brees, he's a great qb
There are a number a qbs who could have had success with the Saints offense last season and Romo is certainly one of them.
In Romo we Trust
So do you think Steve Young would have won those Super Bowls in Dallas
…if Aikman wasn’t there?
Could Favre have won them?
Neill O’Donnell?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Neil O'Donnell???
Now thats funny. I think Young and Favre would have had success with those Cowboys teams, they’re both great QBs.
Of course Young or Favre wouldn’t have won any SBs since one player can’t win or lose games.
In Romo we Trust
What do you have against O'Donnell?
IF not for Larry Brown, he wins a Super Bowl.
;-)
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
You dodged my question earlier Blings
Who do you like better (or think was more important) as a Cowboy CB?
Larry Brown OR Everson Walls?
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jun 22, 2010 1:12 AM CDT up reply actions
Better?
Walls.
But Brown has a Super Bowl MVP to his credit and 20 years from now, people will read about Larry Brown in Canton in the Supeer Bowl section. Those same people won’t get a chance to read about Walls because he won’t be mentioned there.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Actually, Walls won a SB with the Giants.
Ability is a poor mans wealth.
The main ingredient of stardom is the rest of the team.
Talent is God given, Be humble. Fame is man given, Be grateful. Conceit is self-given, Be careful.
-John Wooden-
But nobody will know that..
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I disagree
Cowboys would have still won that SB, O’Donnel just made it easier for them.
In Romo we Trust
You don't think the Steelers had all the momentum in the 2nd half?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Moementum dooesn't always equal a win
As I can recall, the Cards had all the 2nd half momentum against the Steelers in SB XLIII, did they win?
In Romo we Trust
Again, you think if Larry Brown doesn't make that PIC
…we still win?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
absolutely
We were clearly the much better team, Steelers were playing out of their azzes that second half, we were going to win.
In Romo we Trust
Gotta disagree with you Terry
our offense wasn’t doing shit that 2nd half. We were finally exposed by not having really good WR option outside of Irvin. I was about to vomit until Brown INT those passes.
Hold up.
New Orleans is pretty damn comparable on offense.
Lets not act like it’s Drew Brees playing with a bunch of high schoolers. Their offensive line is as good or better than Dallas’s certainly considering that Jahari Evans is the best guard in the NFL.
Marques Colston is probably one of the best possesion WR’s in the NFL, Devery Henderson is a blazer, and Robert Meachem is a guy who was picked in the first round. Oh and he also has a TE that was picked in the first round as well.
The RB’s are pretty comparable as well. Pierre Thomas is one of the most versatile backs in the league and while Reggie Bush isn’t what he was in college, he is still a matchup nightmare for defenses.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Jun 20, 2010 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Hey AFB, Wassup?
So, if you strip out the QB’s, would you take the Cowboys offensive roster or the Saints’ players if you had to pick?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Pre Dez Bryant...
I’d probably pick the Saints honestly. Better offensive line, and comparable skill positions.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Jun 21, 2010 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Interesting
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
even this year
I would. But theres a good chance in a year or two I’ll think differently.
I think our offensive skill position players are a little overrated. Felix is great. Miles was awesome last year, but he caught a lot of balls in traffic and most qbs wouldn’t feed him as well as Romo did. Witten is obviously awesome. But after that? Barbers doing little for us. Our oline was decimated by the Packers, Vikings, Eagles (game 1), Giants (week 2), Broncos, and we couldn’t pick up a yard in multiple short yardage situations against teh Chargers and Redskins. Crayton is reliable, but lets be real, hes not nearly the player that a few of those Saints wrs are. And RW did more harm than good.
I would
Give us their offense and Romo and we’ll be better tha they are with Brees, Austin, RW, Crayton, Felix and our oline. Our oline was absolutely terrible in 5 games last year, all losses. It wouldn’t matter WHO was our qb in the vikings game, we were going to lose.
I'd call it a wash, personally
Even with Dez…though maybe not since they traded one of their linemen. Anyway, it’s that close in my mind.
God Bless Texas
by dwarfknight64 on Jun 22, 2010 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions
But we had a much better defense, right?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Actually you have glossed over the elegance of the argument
…much like the Eagle fans you’re surrounded by at home.
If you can arrive at a point where you can say the Cowboys defense was better than New Orleans’ (which I think most have conceded) and you can say that Dallas’ offense, QB’s notwithstanding, was as good as the New Orleans unit (and that is my contention), then the major deciding factor in the performance of the two teams is the play of the…wait for it…QB!!!
One made enough plays (or limited his mistakes enough) to put them in a position to win the bling.
Ta daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I don't agree with that
Saints had a better OL and receivers so the deciding majot factor was not the qb, not even close.
In Romo we Trust
They had a better QB
I’ve made that point…and quite well, too.
I’m not saying you have to accept it.
The Saints receivers, eh?
Well, let’s compare the top 4 targets on each team…
Austin (81 for 1320) or Colston (70 for 1074)? I take Austin.
RW (38 for 596) or Devery Henderson (51 for 804)? Henderson…ugh
Crayton (37 for 622) or Meachem (45 for 722)? Meachem in a close one
Witten (94 for 1030) or Shockey (48 for 569)? Witten all the way
If my advanced calculus serves me correctly, I see that as 2 for NO and 2 for Dallas.
Tell me again why you think there is such a disparity betweeen our pass catchers and theirs?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
because you're leaving out the other skill players
like Lance Moore and Reggie Bush who also contributed to the offensive production as well. Bush is like a receiver in that offense. Saints offense really spread it out over a number of players and last year they had more playmakers on offense than we did.
In Romo we Trust
Okay, but when you want to include RB's in that discussion, you need to look at more than just their receiving #'s
…and then you get into who had a better RB group?
You have to draw the line somewhere.
You said they had better receivers than Dallas. Maybe you meant to say they had MORE receivers than Dallas?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
they had more quality receivers who produced better overall
Austin and Witten were really our only receiving playmakers.
BTW, you have to include a receiving RB like Bush into the discussion. I’m looking at targets that both Brees and Romo had regardless of position.
In Romo we Trust
Then it's like comparing LB's in a 4-3 vs a 3-4
…there’s no good way. You have to look at the front 7.
You can’t just decide to call a RB a receiver because of scheme. If so, you’d be better served calling Ware a DE. If their touches come from receptions, great. But you have to look at what that does to their total offensive production.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
thats not true at all
You absolutely can call a RB a receiver when the team used him primarily as a receiver, no doubt about it.
Bush was essentially a receiver in the Saints offense and was targeted by Brees a lot. If Felix was used in that same way, I would have included him in the Cowboys group as well.
In Romo we Trust
So again, they had MORE, not better.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I'm assuming you understand the distinctions here...
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Left Coast has made some salient points
Since 5Blings is known for presenting coherent posts, I’ll try to be equally logical.
The Deep Ball. Two factors that have to be considered are the line’s performance and the type of receivers. When TO and Terry Glenn were playing and still fast, Romo threw a lot more passes downfield. Who on the roster now is that fast? I submit they are doing what their personnel allows them to do. I doubt Romo has lost the ability to will to throw it anywhere on the field including deep. And considering the desire of the entire team to reduce interceptions, the deep ball is a good place to start when you don’t have players who can get clear separation as TO used to in his prime.
Red Zone. You demonstrate correlation but not causation. In my mind (and more importantly in the minds of the coaching staff) the two biggest red zone issues are negative plays (penalties, sacks) and the inability to run effectively. That leaves the offense in poor passing situations and the result when you are passing into a more densely populated part of the field is less effective passing. You imply that he is somehow more flustered in the red zone. That is far more of a leap of faith than an assessment.
Super Bowls = Success. I know you pre-empted this discussion by labeling counter-arguments as unacceptable but Left Coast is correct. It is a myth that a QB (or any other player) can “carry his team”. A great QB can improve a team’s odds of winning, but he can no more carry them than a coach or a RB or one of those Indian gods with 18 arms. And you don’t have to even use the extremes to prove the point. Eli, Drew and Peyton have the same number of rings. Who is better? Eli has more rings than his draft-siamese-twin Rivers. Who is the better QB? Like Eli and many others, Romo is more than good enough to QB for a SB winner. That’s about all anyone needs to know. It doesn’t mean Romo stops trying to improve. But acting as though QBing perfection is the only possible way for Dallas to win the championship is unreasonable. All fans want their team to win it all. But it’s essentially two different questions that fans always confuse as the same one – what do you think of Romo and can Dallas win the SB? Danny White was always good enough to win it all. He just never had the team around him to do it, specifically a defense that could hold the lead he built. Gil Brandt still bemoans the fact they never gve White the talent around him that he needed. He would clearly disagree with your implication of QBs being able to single-handedly win SBs. So while that may color your impression of Danny, but it doesn’t mine. It changes my perception of the teams he played on and the talent evaluation of the era.
The Slow Start. Romo has been a slow starter over his career. I don’t think he is unaware, and he seemed to have made strides there last year. And of course, I’ll point out that it is not all him. In some games you see the first drives marred by penalties and drops as well. It’ s a game of small margins for error. But every player has charateristics and flaws, and this may simply be who Romo is. Troy had trouble throwing in rain and extreme cold. Landry fumed about Roger not running a play the way it was drawn up. Oh well. And given his winning percentage and QB rating, I’d say that your conclusion that he can’t wait until the second half to get going is incorrect. Clearly he can. My question is can the offensive line finish a season? Can Dallas run the ball effectively in short-yardage situations? Can America keep paying $12 for stadium beer and remain a global power??
These are the great questions of our times.
FREE THE OGLETREE!!!
Also...
Are you saying you try to be LESS logical when the posters are such?
:-)
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Oh boy...
Deep ball – he missed open receivers on deep routes. It left points on the field. Dallas scored too little. I don’t care if it’s T.O., Miles Austin or Nate Newton running free downfield, he’s got to hit them when they break free.
Red Zone – actually, I think you’re directionally correct, but your point was off base. I think the team has to be able to run the ball effectively in this area of the field to open up more opportunities for Romo. That part is on Houck, Peete and Redball. But when those opportunities arise, Romo has to be better at making the correct read and getting the ball out of his hands quickly. He didn’t do that as well as he should have last year.
Super Bowls blah blah blah – See my point about Roethlisberger in my reply to LCB. Danny White was not good wenough to win it all. If he was, he would have. And therein lies my point. As I have argued many times, the QBis the heartbeat of the team, and great QB’s lift their teams up in defining moments. People like to bash Eli, but he has what Rivers wants. Is he a better QB? I dunno.
You’re using the same vapid argument as before but with different names (to protect the innocent?), so answer me this…
Was Jim Kelly better than Troy Aikman?
Slow Starts – really? not all him? have you watched his floaters go high and outside early in games? Watch the first HALF of the TB game and then go blame it on Roy Williams’s routes or Flozell’s flags. Come on Dunk, Romo stinks it up early in games. It’s got stats behind it (okay, maybe they are meaningless…no offense OCC), but it also has empiricism behind it.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Sorry, that was meant to be a reply to you, Dunk...
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Careful
You are becoming the Anti-matter to Terry’s Matter.
You have committed two common fallacies with these – correlation vs causation, and my favorite “the eye-ball test”. In both cases your biases influence your conclusions too often. I freely admit that I am a “QB friendly” fan because I tend to respect the difficulty of the position, the speed and accuracy demanded of them. All my judgments then reflect that as a much more diificult position, greatness will look different than for other players. So we will always have a very different view. But here are my responses anyway.
No QB is perfect. No QB is even close. All QBs miss their targets, even when people are open. So bringing up anecdotal evidence of guys being missed in some circumstances doesn’t square with his over-all completion percentages or QB ratings which say Romo is in the top echelon of the NFL. Add to that the fact that the more a QB is having to move around to avoid a sack, or find a lane, the more difficult it is to see the field and find the player. You fail to account for a line that gave up an inordinate amount of sacks, pressure s and had sketchy written all over them. Watching the games, one thing Romo contends with more than QBs on other good teams is inconsistent line play. If you fail to account for the other variables, the argument is not only one-sided, it’s doomed to be an inaccurate picture of his performance.
It’s not blah blah blah. Ben Ruthlessbanger has become a good QB, but he was not the reason for the first SB they won. In fact, he was among the weakest links on that team. So if you use Big Ben, be honest enough to see that he counters your argument more than he makes it. And no, I would not prefer that arrogant bag of gas over Romo. For all the hoopla about “Great QBs willing their team to victory” I’ll show you two or three average or above average guys just doing their job. It’s a team sport and as important as the position is, it’s not even logially sound to assume that Romo or any other QB can have that much of an impact on the outcome. It’s not a vapid argument. It’s a solid argument. Answer it yourself… is Eli better than Rivers?? Warren Moon? How about better than McNabb in his prime? Your refusal to even entertain it is bad argumentation. And yes, if I’m honest, Jim Kelly probably was better as a QB than Troy. And so was Warren Moon. And Dan Marino.
Slow starts. This is more of the eyeball test. I actually watch all the games multiple times. While I agree as a trend that Romo starts off slow, what I noticed this past season is that Romo started more games off well, and the team still started off slow. The final two Eagles games had drives killed by practically everyone not named Romo. So, he starts off slow at times, at times other players do.
And all of this taken together, I’d ask “so what”? He still at an incredible pace. He sets team records and his rating is among the best in the game. So what’s the problem? He’s failing to reach the standards you’ve set for him? He’s not perfect? He has flaws? Compared to other top QBs n the league, he’s very good, more than good enough to QB the team and win a SB. That and trying his best is all I can ask.
FREE THE OGLETREE!!!
I'll admit that I don't know...
what THE REASON is when a team wins a bling. I do know who won them and how they won them. Ben deserves a ton of credit for that accomplishment. So does Eli, who did what his team needed him to do, in much the same way Aikman was not often asked to take over games and pass for 350 and 4 TD’s. As far as I can tell, QB’s get too much credit for winning and too much blame for losing. Guess what? They know that when they sign that $67 million dollar contract that raises my ticket prices. Don’t look for sympathy from me.
What makes a BETTER QB? The guy with better stats or the one with the blings?
You can take your 48,000 passing yards with Marino. I’ll take the one bling that Steve Young won.
We disagree. I think Jim Kelly wasn’t as good a QB as Aikman. In fact, I don’t think he was even close.
Slow starts aren’t MY interpretation. It’s factual based on his ratings, the team’s points scored AND the eyeball test.
Don’t get caught up in team records. This is a passing league. The rules favor the WR’s and hurt the DB’s and pass rushers. I expect Romo willown all of the Cowboys’ passing records when he is done. Big deal. More attempts = more completions = more yards = more TD’s.
The measuring stick is, has been, and always will be…the bling.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
But you are using the event to define a characteristic
You are defining greatness of a QB by his team winning in a single event. Was Peyton Manning great before his team won? How about Eli? Drew? How about Bledsoe? A lot of people believed that had he not been injured, he would have been the SB winning QB. If P Manning was great before he won the SB, then he was always great and the SB could not further define him. If he were not great (Dilfer, Eli, Rypien) he never was and no winning of a single game could change that fact.
FREE THE OGLETREE!!!
There is no doubt in my mind that people like Elway, Favre and Manning(s)
…would be looked upon differently had they not won the bling.
The aforementioned Jim Kelly is a perfect example.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
exactly
though I do think that recent history (the last decade) needs to be viewed differently. QBs impact the game more than ever before, and Blings’ argument today does hold more water than it would’ve 10 years ago.
Good point foyes
But do you think the rise of the QB in today’s more complex game trumps the rise of the coach/coodinators? When Denver and Chicago traded QBs it was the QBs’ stats that changed more than the teams.
Another way of looking at it is – do you think the Cowboys would have been more successful if we had Brees rather than Romo…or Sean Payton rather than Garret?
If I’m making the call, I like the Romo/Payton combo better than Brees/Garrett.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jun 18, 2010 7:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Too early to judge the Cutler thing...
I mean, look at who the poor slob had to throw to.
Roy Williams would be a godsend for them. So would Crayton!
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I don't buy the love for Peyton
I think him and Garrett are very comparable. Brees is a top 3 qb, Romo is on the next teir. I’d take Brees and Garrett.
Also, as Blings says, its too early to judge the Cutler trade. in 2 years, he could be putting up stats similar to Denver. They certainly threw the ball a ridiculous amount last year, they just don’t have the playmakers and Cutler experienced some problems mentally for sure.
Cutler did it to himself though...
he went to ateam that had him on offense…and NOTHING else.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
The point being that THE TEAM mattered more than the QB
Even for the QB stats:
2008
- Denver (Cutler) – Ranked #16 with a QB rating of 86
- Chicago (Orton) – Ranked #25, QB rating of 79.6
2009
- Denver (Orton) – Ranked #14 with a QB rating of 86.8
- Chicago (Cutler) – Ranked #21, QB rating of 76.8
Now tell me how the QB makes more of a difference than the players around him…
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jun 22, 2010 1:21 AM CDT up reply actions
He does!
…and you’ll start to see that this year.
For every Orton vs. Cutler, there’s five Favre vs. Tavaris Jackson’s to contradict you.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Actually, Favre vs. Jackson supports my argument very well
Of course the Vikings were improved by Favre. They replaced an average-to-below-average QB in Jackson, with a clear Hall of Famer in Favre…who also had the best year of his career statistically.
And yet what Favre gave to the Vikings isn’t nearly as dramatic as what the Vikings gave to Favre:
1st – The #’s for Favre and Jackson reflect the team more than the reverse:
2008
- Favre (Jets) – QB Rating of 81
- Jackson (Minn) – QB Rating of 96
2009
- Favre (Jets) – QB Rating of 104
- Jackson (Minn) – QB Rating of 114
…also, did the Jet’s improve in 2009 because Sanchez was better than Favre…or because Revis and the Jet’s D became dominant?
2nd – The Vikings, and their QB’s illustrate the “team effect” (and Randy Moss effect) over QB very well
1997 (pre-Moss) – Cunningham QB Rating = 71
1998 (Moss Rookie) – Cunningham’s career year, Rating = 106
1999 – Jeff George’s career year, Rating = 94*
2000 – Daunte Culpepper, Rookie, Rating = 98
2004 (last Moss yr.) – Culpepper rating = 111
2005 (no Moss) – Culpepper rating = 72
- George’s Rating in 1998 was 73 with Oakland, in 2000 it was 80 with Washington
3rd – Detailed modeling and analysis here showed the “Favre effect” could be expected to add ~.7 wins for the Vikings on average.
Expected difference between QBs was nominal:
Player xxxxxxx COMP ATT PCT YDS TD INT
Brett Favre xxxxxxx 272 433 62.8 3,088 22 16
Jackson-Rosenfels 256 429 59.7 2,944 20 18
…of course Percy Harvin’s emergence as the 2009 Rookie of the Year lifted all boats.
I have no illusion that any of us will change your mind on the primacy of the QB, leadership, or bling. But you should realize that the evolution of thought in any area requires that commonly held misconceptions be replaced, ever so slowly, with more accurate and refined understandings. So maybe, just maybe, you’ll open the door a crack into seeing that there are valid realities that transcend popular cultural beliefs.
Once upon a time the idea’s of Columbus, Galileo, and Darwin rested on the bravery of those who did.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jun 24, 2010 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Well written, but suspect logic
The Jets were 4-12 the season previous to Favre’s arrival.
They were 9-7 the year later under Favre’s guidance. You spoke of improvement in the Jets, but the Jets were 9-7 the following year despite having the #1 defense. I see erroneous logic.
In 2008, the vikes were 10-6 and scored 379 points (12th in the NFL) led by Jackson and Gus Frerotte. The following year under Favre? 12-4, 470 points scored (#2 in the NFL) and actually gave up more yards on defense!
Again I say, the QB drives the bus of the football team. They’re not THE bus, but they are the bus driver.
So sail on, my Ponce De Leon. The Fountain of Truth (came up with that myself) still escapes you…
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I saw a guy wearing a Favre Jets jersey this past weekend
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
My Beer Blog: http://tiltingsuds.wordpress.com/
That was his cousin...
Bubba Favre.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Not Bubba
He was in New Jersey. That was his second cousin Salvatore Favre
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
My Beer Blog: http://tiltingsuds.wordpress.com/
Ah yes, Sal Favre
Strangest hick-paisano accent you hever heard…
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I'll further add to 5blings points
Favre played hurt at the end of the year with the Jets (in 1 year I’m convinced nobody will remember he played for them), and that really hurt his numbers, He drastically improved Minnesota – they became much more of a passing team with him, and went from a lame duck playoff team offed regularly easily by Philly to an obvious top 4 team in the NFL and were possibly one stupid throw away from beating NO.
And as blings stated, 100 points is nothing to scoff at. Thats a big improvement.
That is one TD per game
…and this sucks, because I’m not a big fan of his. But you would be hard pressed to prove that Harvin becomes ROY if Tarvaris is the one QB’ing that team. No, Favre definitely elevated that entire offense to a different level altogether.
Oh, the shame of it all…
And I completely agree that NOBODY will remember his stint with the Jets.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Let me say one thing about a question you (LCC) posed earlier
I do believe, and I may be in the minority here, that the impact of offensive coordinators (more so than coaching) has been greatly increased over recent years…not as much as the play of the QB, but nonetheless significantly more.
What I cannot tell is whether the rules changes in the passing game has made guys like Payton, Kyle Shanahan and others more influential on the game’s outcomes or if it is some sort of evolution in the game’s X’s and O’s that they are driving.
How much different are the routes that today’s WR’s run as opposed to those in prior years? I also wonder if the emergence of 3-4 defenses have forced teams to adapt by throwing more than before.
It was an excellent question and it has had me scratching my head.
I’d be open to any reasonable explanation here because I cannot seem to put my finger on it.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I would definitely say it is the evolution of the X's and O's.
Think about the pure variance in offensive schemes that have come about in the last twenty years. Whether you are talking about the increase in the variation of formations, the increase in types of routes, or even the increase in adjustments necessary to keep up with defenses I think it is clear that the proverbial book on running an offense has increased a lot. As such, preparation and planning has become even more important in my opinion and that is where you can see offensive coordinators have more effect on the outcome of a game than ever before.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on Jun 25, 2010 12:22 AM CDT up reply actions
Do you think it trumps the impacts of guys like
…Don Coryell on offense in the 70’s?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I wouldn't go so far to say it trumps it since guys like Coryell and Walsh
were truly innovators at their respective times. You could very well say in fact that a lot of the recent trends are still derived from what those guys started. I would just say that I think the trend is more evident in today’s game since there is definitely more variation in defenses and as such offensive coordinators have become more and more valuable for the time spent on planning and preparation. What is most interesting to me with offensive coordinators though is the way that if you look at a guy like Sean Payton you can see his evolution over the course of the career as he altered what he liked to do on offense (started in NYG with a running oriented offense, blends the pass more with the run in Dallas, combines consistent running with deep, spread passing in New Orleans). I would never expect anyone to research this, but I think it would be extremely interesting to see a write-up on how individual coordinators have changed over the years (run-pass mix, types of throws, etc.). I think that would obviously get to the heart of the trends in today’s game and really show on a statistical level (which would be interesting to compare to my anecdotal experience) what makes some coordinators more unique and more successful in today’s NFL.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on Jun 25, 2010 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions
Very interesting
I wonder if that’s also what makes these coordinators the most likely candidates to fill HC vacancies when a decade ago, Owners and GM’s were looking to the college ranks more for their next HC.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
+1000
I think OCs (and DCs) carry great weight. Despite Terry and his “all about execution”. Play calling matters. Jim Johnson always seemed to come up with the right blitz at the right time. Paytons play calling in NO last year was great.
I thought Brees was a better QB and Payton was a better OC than Romo and JG last year. Im not dissing on our guys I just think they are/were a year or 2 ahead in terms of developement. At the end of last year I felt like our guys took another major step to closing that gap. I really feel like our guys are gonna reach that dignified air this year. I think our guys reach that elite status.
I know the stats say they are there but calling and executing the right play at the right time. that and a total buy in by the rest of the team that those 2 have all of the answers.
I saw our guys make that “next step” and by the early reports of Romo in OTAs and MC its solidified my perception.
Ability is a poor mans wealth.
The main ingredient of stardom is the rest of the team.
Talent is God given, Be humble. Fame is man given, Be grateful. Conceit is self-given, Be careful.
-John Wooden-
That's what the loser in every election says
Boo-freakin’-hoo.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
If Payton never won he would be Dan Marino
A history will in no doubt show that he was, but me he aint going be remembered for Winning.
But he did win...
so now what?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Giants fans would disagree
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
That's my line!!!
…but I was pointing out that they’d have a pretty good argument against you here.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Really enjoyed this thread Dunkman
Didn’t want to jump in because Blings and I are having out own little tete-a-tete further up, but I thought you made some very strong points.
I think this may end in a triumph of will over wisdom, and where Blings may not be the Buddah, he definitely is “strong like bull.”
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jun 18, 2010 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions
I've been called "dumb like rock" too...
but since she and I have sex, I allow it.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Being called a rock ain't such a bad thing...
…from that vantage point at least.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jun 22, 2010 1:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah
I suppose “dumb like overcooked linguine” would have been much, much worse.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Cabo always has been and always will be tabloid trash.
You’re no brighter than a bimbo if you believe otherwise. If being studious is so important why has Peyton Manning been such a postseason pansy? I mean Big Ben had one of the worst Super Bowl performances of all time in Super Bowl XL because he was out all week getting sh*tfaced and preying up on even more sh*tfaced bimbos. Yet he still has more rings than cerebral assassin Peyton Manning. Explain that one, ace. Also feel free to expound on why you deify Peyton Manning when the Colts actually won the Super Bowl in spite of him.
Seriously, it’s not that I disagree with your viewpoint of Romo. It’s that you won’t dare apply the same standards to your sacred cow Peyton Manning. Because dem dar Manning boys is royalty.
Peyton is a first ballot HOF'er and the guy people call the best ever and I tend to agree
If you can’t appreciate what he does on the field, then that’s a personal myopeia problem.
But here’s the part we can’t run away from;
Ben Won. He’s been labeled a winner.
Romo’s won nothing. He’s been labeled a celebrity and a choker.
I can’t change that. He can.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Of course you can change it
you can adopt a more rational approach to judging an individual and of course, refrain from joining in the insanity.
The whole argument is now shifting to “appeal to authority” by saying “well, it’s how they are judged.” you already know where this goes – how does the fact that people slavishly repeat the silly stuff commentators day about “a team of destiny” and “he willed his team to win” make it a valid argument? That people say it? That’s it? It doesn’t. The teams Tony has QB for have won plenty. Check the record. They haven’t won the SB. It’s a team event. You know these things and yet can’t break away from the TV truisms like “he can’t be considered elite unless he wins the Big One” even while knowing that as good as Romo, or Ware, or Ratliff are, they can’t do it alone.
The issue is that you have a self-proving thesis. You’ve defined a “winner” and “elite QB” and “HOF” by SB his team has won. Obviously by defining it that way and refusing all other possible metrics of greatness, it completely denies the possibility that a QB can be great if his team never wins the championship. If you just stated it that way from the beginning – that there is no other option because it’s your definition – it would be less entertainining, but it would save oodles of time we could then dedicated to trying all of Seanrude’s beer…
FREE THE OGLETREE!!!
Don't misunderstand
I don’t refuse other measures of greatness, I just don’t equate them equally.
I hope you can understand the distinction.
What those people you seem to revile so greatly say, has everything to do with who wins the MVP awards, who gets inducted into the HOF and who becomes an also ran.
Rant and rave all you want, call the sky pink if you want to.
I’m not sure what you hope to change…but I’m rooting for you.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
No need to be insulting
The English language and I are well acquainted. I am also not ranting or raving. I am asking for something that lines up remotely with logic. You have referenced two things: You define greatness your own way and dismiss any other definition (with the exception of a small number of statistical freaks like Marino). Suffice it to say I disagree with your approach of defining an individual’s accomplishments using a team’s achievement. Second, you reference “experts” and unnamed “others” as your basis for defininng individual greatness through collective accomplishments. This is a common, but fallacious, method of argumentation. There millions who believe that 9/11 was perpetrated by the US or Israel or both, and that lends the theory no value.
If you were arguing whether Kelly or Aikman were better and you pointed to similar numbers, but Aikman got the edge because he performed better when the utmost pressure was on, it would be an interesting exercise, although without any way to prove it one way or another. But a blanket “rule” that a QB’s team winning the SB transforms that player into a great player has nothing to offer because it was a forgone conclusion when from the beginning you defined greatness by SB rings.
FREE THE OGLETREE!!!
I unstand your arguement but as a Cowboy Fan
Which one pulls more weight with you the numbers of Danny White or the Rings of Roger Staubach?
But Staubach was the total package
Blings and brilliance. He may not have had the same high numbers as today’s great QBs, but OCC’s recent post showed that on a relative basis he was as good as any.
I think the question is do you prefer Staubach’s overall excellence to Bradshaw’s Blings?
Personally I’d take Staubach, but will admit he wasn’t on his game in that last playoff loss at the hands of the Rams and Vince Ferragamo.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jun 18, 2010 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions
...without spotting him ANY letters!!!
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
He could have led Jackie Smith a bit further out...
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
all Jackie's fault dude; I remember it like it was yesterday
what day is it?
I just played it again several times
It’s 80/20.
I never really questioned if the route called for him to stop in the open area or continue his drag…
He should have caught the ball though.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Hit him in the chest sure...
…but his arm was on the grass because the ball was so low.
I love Roger, and as a pro you expect Harris to make that catch, but that wasn’t a good pass to a very open receiver.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jun 22, 2010 1:27 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't agree
Smith was wide open, but why did he have to go down so low to get the ball?
If the ball is thrown chest high, I wonder about the outcome.
But Terry, he didn’t hit Smith in the chest as you say, Smith went down to get a low ball that got into his chest as he was sliding to the turf.
Here’s the clip and it’s about the 1:53 mark that you want to get to…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbz89jkLq8k
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
But was that pass, as you contend, "on the money"?
…or was it low as LCC and I have said?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I think it was a great pass
the fact it wasn’t 6 feet off the ground is irrelevant IMO.
In Romo we Trust
First it was on the money
Now, it’s a “great pass”.
I know he is one of your heroes (mine too), but can you set that aside for a moment and be ojective enough to see it from LCC’s and my POV?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
That would be a great throw if any of us were in that situation
but for someone of Roger’s caliber that was not a great throw. This can be measured by the fact that I have little doubt that Roger could do better. That throw was no where near Roger’s best and as such can not be called “great.”
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on Jun 24, 2010 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Or on the money!!!
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
well said dunk
Football is team game and the qb is just one position among many on a team, albeit the most important, but still just one player among many.
QBs can be great without winning, Archie Manning proved that in spades with the horrible Saints decades ago.
In Romo we Trust
That is WRONG
…and here is why;
In the years of Archie Manning and Fran Tarkenton, the rules of the game were different. The games greatest players were Brown, Sayers, Sweetness.
Today’s NFL is all about the rules changes. It’s a QB’s game and they have as much of an impact as Ubaldo Jimenez and Kobe Bryant do on their sports.
The best defensive lineman in the game can’t change the fortunes of a team like the Redskins the way the best QB in the game can keep a team with a sub-par defense winning 11 games or more every year for, an unheard of, seven consecutive seasons.
QB’s can be highly PROLIFIC without winning, but only winners can be called GREAT.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
no, you couldn't be MORE WRONG
Marino, Fouts, Tarkenton, Manning were all great qbs by any standard at any point in time, they would have been great qbs today, and to say they weren’t because their teams didn’t have great success is absolutely ridiculous.
You remind of the people in the Middle Ages who thought the world was flat because that was just the common perception at the time.
In Romo we Trust
Is Matt Schaub great?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Little early for the great lable
As Terry’s gang of 4 have all have A LOT of great years on their resume.
But I’d take Schaub, Arron Rogers and Phillip Rivers all over your Big Ben in a heartbeat. And I guess to me that’s a more relevant measure of greatness than Bling (if all are comparably in their early prime) – who would you want as your QB.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jun 22, 2010 1:34 AM CDT up reply actions
The one that wins
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
How about McNabb?
Great or not great??
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
absolutely, I think his career numbers speak for himself
as well as putting up with Philly fans his entire career, that in and of itself is an outstanding achievement.
Performing well in that God forsaken hell hole has to be greatness.
In Romo we Trust
Jeff Garcia
Great or not great?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Compare Garcia and McNabb for me...
why is McInjury great and Garcia not?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Sorry if that came out wrong
…but I don’t think my approach is irrational (your words) and nothing you’ve said would convince an objective thrid party.
Your point about 9/11 isn’t relevant. No one gets to vote on the topic of who perpetrated the actsof terror.
That’s not true when it comes to MVP voting, HOF, etc.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Nope, 3 TD, 7 INT is awful football. Either postseason performance means everything or you're a hypocrite.
You don’t deserve to watch football if you can’t separate it in your fragile little mind when a QB plays horrible but the team still wins in spite of him. Fact: Peyton Manning played worthless to mediocre football in the only postseason in which his team won it all.
You’re right, though. Big Ben did play great in the ‘06 playoffs compared to Manning in the ’07 playoffs. Although since you’re big on locker room morale why did Joey Porter chew Big Ben in the ‘06 offseason for his horrible Super Bowl performance and immaturity? Why is it that the guys who actually play the game don’t take the airheaded moronic approach of “Ah, we won the blings anyways, mang. Let’s cut the punk a break.” Screw perception. Romo’s off-the-field indiscretions are nonexistent. That isn’t to say Romo should be cut a break. I’m just pointing out the obvious that what a guy does off the field is overblown meaningless crap for the most part.
Maybe all these intrepid reporters should be investigating what crackhouses Roy Williams and Greg Ellis were spending the bye week at to do that shoddy tackling job on Amani Toomer?
Hmmmm
Peyton is 9-10 in the playoffs with most of his losses coming at the hands of the team of the decade.
Romo is 1-3 losing to Seattle, the Giants and Minnesota.
Peyton has a 62.9% completion rate in the playoffs. Romo has a 59.3%
Peyton averages 283 YPG in those contests. Romo a paltry 208.
Mick, if you’re right and Peyton has played awful football in the postseason, what would you call the kind of football Romo has played?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
First of all, I said Manning was awful in the '07 playoffs.
I didn’t knock the cute stats he put up against world beater Broncos and Chiefs teams in the playoffs. Also, simple math: The Patsies account for 2 of Manning’s 10 postseason losses. How does that qualify as most? Manning’s also lost to Fiedler-led Dolphins and Pennington-led Jets clubs in the postseason.
But yes, you’re correct. Romo hasn’t done squat in the playoffs. I would never pretend he did. As of now, if he puts up a bunch of big numbers the rest of the way without making a dent in the playoffs he’ll be roughly in the same category as Donovan McNabb in the “Not Ready For All-Time Greatness” players club.
3 TD/7 INT sucks. You’re too chickensh*t to even acknowledge it. The Colts won their only Super Bowl in spite of Manning. Ty Law made him look like an absolute fool in the Wild Card round of those playoffs. The guy simply doesn’t play up to his high standards in the postseason. Of course, stat junkies will always deify him. I can’t take you seriously until you admit he’s not the same kind of clutch player Joe Montana and Kurt Warner were. I detest double standards.
Seriously?
They won in spite of Manning?
You really believe that?
In the season you’re talking about, he had a putrid game against the Ravens IN BALTIMORE (the Colts won 15-6 BTW) where he went 15/30 for 170 and 2 INT’s. This is the Ravens defense at their high point we’re talking about. The Ravens were 13-3 that season.
If you take that game out, Manning was 30/38 for 268 against the Chiefs, 27/47 for 349 against New England and 25 of 38 for 247 in the Super Bowl. For those of you who are calculator-challenged, that’s a 66.7% completion rate over the span of 3 playoff games.
Even in the season you chose to deride him about, the guy was superlative.
Stop spouting nonsense.
Next…
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Chiefs sucked dick and he threw 3 INT.
Because Ty Law was inside his head. Yards and completion percentage without points equal dick. You ought to work for Faux News.
3 TD, 7 INT sucks. Next.
They sucked and made the playoffs?
Your lack of understanding of the term “relativistic” shows through in how you criticize Manning but won’t juxtapose him properly with Romo and your comment above.
Plus, can you do me a favor, tone the body part language down JUST a bit?
Thanks.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
3 TD, 7 INT is horrible.
One great half in 16 quarters of playoff football doesn’t equal greatness. Sorry.
Um...
rewatch the 2nd half of the Colts-Pats championship game. That comeback was greatness.
And in the Super Bowl against Chicago, though his numbers were not good, I give him a lot of credit (since he pretty much calls the plays) for recognizing the Bears were playing the pass and adjusting by calling runs, which exhausted the defense and opened up some passing lanes.
I’m not sure if I’m ready to call Peyton the best ever like 5Blings (maybe when his career is over). I’d like to see multiple Super Bowl wins. If you’re talking best ever, I would think you would have to involve multiple titles.
Good post 5Blings. I didn’t see where you thought Manning will go down as better than Brady but was implied. Why is that? Brady’s 3 SB wins (so far) and coolness in the playoffs under pressure are hard to beat.
Brady hasn't been as consistent
Seven straight seasons with 11 or more wins? In this parity-driven league, I find that almost incomprehensible.
If OCC is reading, who’s the next closest in regard to that stat?
Also, I thinnk Brady is right there with Manning, but Brady had the luxury of playing opposite a top-tier defense. Now that the leaders on defense have moved on, the talent on offense has gotten better and yet Brady has not been able to will them over the top. Something tells me that the Randy Moss thing (coupled with the loss to the G-Men) really messed them up. Did you notice that the Pats so-called dynasty ended the day Willie McGinest retired?
More often than not, will beats skill. And will comes from great leadership.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I thought regular season wins without blings(sissy word) meant bupkiss.
Brady has proven time and time again that he can win different styles of game in the playoffs although in all fairness it should be considered he has played in the Patsies system where at least half the passes were of the controlled passing game variety.
But see it’s not about Brady. Manning has had too many awful games in the postseason to ignore. You’re just a sheep buying into the hype if you even dare considering him the greatest of all time at this point.
Baaaaaaaaaa
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Hey, attentive Peyton sycophant that you are.
I’ve repeatedly mentioned how great Peyton’s 2nd half was in that game. But the fact still remains that if Reche Caldwell doesn’t drop an easy pass midway through the 4th quarter Brady with an inferior cast bests Peyton once again. Also it’s no coincidence that the Colts got the go-ahead score on a draw play and not a Peyton Manning pass in that game. Wise up.
Yeha but if Vanderjac doesnt miss some FGs that loses games.
maybe he does a little more. He seem to do better when NEs kicker signed.
Ability is a poor mans wealth.
The main ingredient of stardom is the rest of the team.
Talent is God given, Be humble. Fame is man given, Be grateful. Conceit is self-given, Be careful.
-John Wooden-
So Mick, why such a hater on Peyton?
You think he is overexposed and hate his commercials?
You don’t like eli so you transfer?
what’s the real deal?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Now bring on the excuses why Romo hasn't been worse than awful
:-)
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
So you'd call Peyton the best postseason QB ever?
Since I thought that was really mattered. Come on. Bring on the excuses for why he came up short so many times when it really mattered.
The best QB ever
Period.
Not sure what’s so hard for you to understand there…
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
No, it's Marino or Bradshaw or Aikman or Brady
they have more rings. Since one ring is the measure of greatness, more rings are the measure of the degree of greatness.
FREE THE OGLETREE!!!
Forget that. It's the absolute refusal to look at how a player actually played in the postseason.
That’s what’s so vexing. Peyton’s got a ring but his team won in spite of him. You’re not allowed to be a Peyton sycophant and dark overlord of the “Romo is a goofy looking dumpy diminutive choker” oversight committee.
+1
Blings is right in that history views qbs by playoff success. 30 years from now, records and rings will be all there is to these players names. But I don’t understand why anyone would take that approach. Personally, when I look back on this era, and I think of “winners”, I’ll think of 3 qbs – Brady, Ben and Warner.
I could care less about number of rings. Kurt Warner and Peyton Manning have the same number of rings, but I will view them entirely differently. Warner was first and foremost a leader, but also a terrific, once in a lifetime performer under pressure. At his best, he could dissect even the best defense with pinpoint passes, even if the pressure was bearing down and he was about to get railed. Meanwhile, I will view Peyton as the best pure qb I’ve ever see, but when the going got tough, he’d crumble. Hes done it time and time again. This was the first postseason where I thought he really stepped up to the plate, and he ended it with possibly the stupidest throw of his career.
You couldn't be more right about history and how flawed it can actually be.
Look no further than the legend of Joe Namath. The biggest pass play in that game was actually Earl Morrall missing a wide open receiver and instead throwing a pick. Yet Namath occupies a spot in the collective consciousness as some kind of legend more because of a quote than any pass he ever threw.
This next part might seem out of character for me but I’d actually cut Peyton a little slack for that Super Bowl interception. While I still didn’t like the throw Porter deserves as much credit as Peyton deserves blame for taking a ballsy gamble like that. I can’t think of that play without remembering Eric Davis similarly baiting Aikman for a pick six during that drizzling sh*tstorm of an opening to the 1995 NFC Title game.
Many of the writers of that period felt Snell won that game.(RB for you guys with momma's milk on your breath)
Ability is a poor mans wealth.
The main ingredient of stardom is the rest of the team.
Talent is God given, Be humble. Fame is man given, Be grateful. Conceit is self-given, Be careful.
-John Wooden-
I'd look in the mirror
You seem to give Romo more credit than he’s due. Manning is the best in the game, regardless of your personal dislike.
Kobe won a title last night. History will not remember how poorly he shot. History will remeber it as one for the thumb.
Sorry, just the facts, ma’am.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I didn't say a word about how Romo should be remembered.
That you won’t remember how poorly Kobe shot last night says a lot about you. So you’ll automatically put him in the same breath as Michael Jordan? i guess because that buck toothed brunette across the bar has bigger tits than Megan Fox she’s hotter.
You still haven’t reasoned out why 3 TD, 7 INT is acceptable except fancy completion percentages and yardage totals.
It’s cowardly to state what the mass morons will think about a guy puts him in legend status than stating an actual opinion. Just to show my line of thinking, Brett Favre is a hell of a lot better postseason QB than Peyton. I honestly don’t blame him for the Packers losses in the ’96 NFC Title Game or Super Bowl XXXI because the Packers run defense was far more awful than his picks were.
that buck toothed brunette across the bar has bigger tits
can you introduce me to her?
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
My Beer Blog: http://tiltingsuds.wordpress.com/
Sure I have
…it was enough to win a bling against some of the best defense in the game.
And guess what, the comparisons to Jordan have been going on for some time. If you haven’t read or heard them yet, you may want to come out from under that rock.
Isn’t “mass morons” one of those terms used by people who are disenfranchised and…mad at the world?
Ohhhhhhhh. Now I get it.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I think
Jordan made inferior teammates better than Kobe has, and Kobe has better teammates. Kobe will go down as one of the best, but not as good as MJ in my opinion.
Completely agree
I will be interested in how Phil will view them once it’s all over.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Sucked in the only postseason in which his team won it all.
What’s so hard to understand about that?
1 TD, 5 INT against the Chiefs and Ravens isn’t the reason the Colts advanced to the AFC Title Game. Also even though he played a legendary 2nd half against the Patsies his boneheaded pick six to Ashante Samuel that put his team in a 21-3 hole is inexcusable. Furthermore if Tom Brady wasn’t throwing to that bug-eyed jabronie Reche Caldwell an inferior Patsies squad manages to put the Colts away.
It’s mindless hero worship of the highest degree to declare Peyton Manning the bar none greatest of all time when he always blows it at the most crucial moments because his nads shrivel up to the size of chick peas. Joe Montana doesn’t get his ring jacked by some dumbass young punk with a bad haircut in the Super Bowl the way Tracy Porter did to Peyton Manning.
I responded to this above
It’s interesting when people say EVERYONE ELSE is stupid.
It’s especially interesting to me when they are in the minority.
Hey look, I do it all the time. But in this case, outside the web walls of BTB, most people would disagree with you and I would be elected their king.
That shouldn’t stop you from screaming bloody murder about how Manning sucks and shouldn’t be mentioned in the same breath as Romo.
I support your right to be wrong.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Way too much reliance what what "they say." Are you analyzing Romo or what
the media says about Romo?
I'm making a statement about the reality of how legacies are formed in the NFL
It’s not about what fans want for their team’s players. It’s what the masses think, right or wrong. So, as one looks to operate within the rules of the game, I see no other way for Tony to be compared favorably with the game’s greats unless he wins at least one bling.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
It's not reality, it's perception...big difference
Masses once believed the world was flat too….were they right because it was universally believed??
In Romo we Trust
Right enough to keep people from sailing off the edge...
keep fighting the good fight, Terry.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
3 TD, 7 INT is a great postseason. Peyton has a bling; which is sissy terminology.
But he has the dagblasted bling. Again this isn’t about Romo but about the fact that you’re ready to proclaim your hero the best of all time bar none just because yet you accuse Romo backers of the same blind hero worship. Keep fighting the good fight indeed.
Same number of blings that Favre has
Most 300 yard performances in the postseason of any QB in history.
Most postseason games with 30+ completions.
All of that done against playoff defenses (generally regarded as the best in the league).
The Colts had the worst rushing offense in football last season and were 18th in total defense, yet again, won 11+ games on the way to an AFC title.
When they won it all in 2006, they were 21st in total defense and were 1th rushing the ball.
He has a bling (you seem to be an expert on all things sissy, so you should be comfortable with it), which puts him in a different conversation. does that alone make him great? No. But when you punch that ticket AND have the career numbers that he has along side the bling? This guy, who is only 4 years older than Romo, has done what all the great ones have done, put their team in a position to win…and no one has done it more frequently with less help (defense and run game support) than him.
When I watch Peyton do what he does on Sundays, it’s reminiscent of what Unitas, Montana and others did. The fact that I can’t get past is that he can put the ball on any receiver on any route at any depth with the kind of strength, touch, timing and accuracy that I have never seen before him.
So you go pound your chest about his 3 TD/7INT postseason all you want. If you ask me, it’s a short-sighted, myopic view of a hater who can’t appreciate the things this guy does every football Sunday.
You’re missing out and you’ll regret it one day soon.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
bling, golf isn't a vice dude
Playing competitive golf in the off season actually helps make Romo a much better qb because it helps him focus and concentrate in pressure situations as well as deal with adversity while playing and fighting through those tough spots.
Anyone who plays golf with any kind of regularity knows this to be true as golf is really 90% mental and all about focus and concentration and really so is a lot about playing qb.
In Romo we Trust
Personally, I don't care
…if he views it as a way to unwind or, as you say, a way to help him increase his ability to focus under pressure.
In the end, I see nothing negative about it and hope he continues to enjoy his healthy pastime.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I don't think it's a vice for him
…but truthfully, anything can become a vice. And some are more unhealthy than others.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Slow starts? Maybe, although I agree with Dunk, among others, that those slow
starts were likely helped along by dropped passes and O line mental farts, especially the latter. Romo isn’t perfect, and pointing out that he has room for improvement isn’t a revelation (well, to most of us).
Bad red zone offense? Really, how many of those failures are on his shoulders? OCC can probably help us there. What I keep remembering is the O line’s failure to execute in the run game. I actually agree that more bootlegs, etc., would be worth trying, since I think that kind of thing capitalizes on Romo’s strengths; talk to Garrett, since last I looked, he calls the offense.
The deep game is an issue, and, in my memory, Troy wasn’t the best deep ball thrower either. But how much is Romo’s problem, and how much is the fault of the receivers and the line? I don’t know. Maybe this is an area for improvement.
Where you really lose me is in the threads that follow. A great QB makes those around him better? Then Romo is there. This is already his team, and Witten was just quoted the other day as saying what a lot of us knew: Romo makes that iffy line look so much better than they are. I’m fearful that that will backfire on the Cowboys; it only takes one solid hit on an O line break down to put Kitna in the game.
Ben vs. Romo? I’d take Romo. I don’t just measure greatness by Super Bowls. If that were the case, every QB who ever won a SB would be in the HoF, which you yourself choose to use as a measure of success. As Dunk pointed out, there are a fair number of good, but not great, QBs who have won; generally, they benefited from a truly great defense that made it possible for their QB to win, simply by not making any egregious errors. Ben R. is a scumbag (who, yes, benefited in both SBs his team won from an unbelievably superior defense), and 10 rings wouldn’t make me want him as the Cowboys QB.
Your position on Peyton Manning is baffling. The best ever? How do you figure that? Either you measure greatness by the bling, or you don’t (and you said you do). He’s won one. So did Trent Dilfer. So?
So, again, does Romo have to keep improving? Yup, and that’s by his own admission. I wouldn’t respect a player who was complacent. But the rest of the team has even more work to do, and Romo’s prospects for success are greatly dependent on whether they step up. The D desperately needs to get more turnovers and play less of a “bend don’t break” game. The offense started in the hole plenty last season. The O line needs a makeover, and they are as much a key as Romo. The linebackers and the safeties need to play a whole lot better than they did last year. It may be a QB’s game more than ever before, but to imply, as you always do, that this game is Romo’s to win or lose, makes no sense to me.
Agreements and disagreements
I don’t blame his inaccuracy on the O-line. He was off in the 1st quarter too often. That’s not saying the O-line’s poor play didn’t contribute to the lack of early scoring, though. I just don’t have the O-line stats to prove either way.
So you blame the red zone failures ALL on Redball? Hmmmm
You’re absolutely right about Aikman and his deep throws. It wasn’t his forte.
I also agree that last year, Romo began to make his teammates better. I wouldn’t have said that in prior seasons as I think his mental lapses set the wrong tone for the team.
On Ben vs. Romo, Ben is what? 27? Two blings already? I think he’s a HOF’er if he can shed the idiot-off-the-field moniker. The question is this; would you take Ben’s stupidity over Romo if you got 2 extra blings in that deal?
You brought up the Dilfer thing, so you get no reply. Sorry, I gotta be consistent.
I believe in the power of great leadership, Fernie. I saw Aikman do it during the Switzer debacle. He filled the gaping leadership void and elevated what would have been a wayward team to a 5th bling.
It happens every day in business, in the military, in churches and in schools. The power that one person can have is amazing when they choose to lead, inspiring others to follow. I believe Romo can have that kind of impact on the Cowboys.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Not sure where I said I blame Garrett solely for the red zone issue. I'm pretty sure
I mentioned O line execution. I’m agreeing that the play calling could be better, yes. Romo isn’t the only with room for improvement.
No, as I said, I wouldn’t take Ben R. over Romo. Period. If I wanted criminals on the team, I’d have begged for Pacman to stay.
Don’t like Dilfer? How about Mark Rypien, Doug Williams, Brad Johnson, and so on? Fair to rank them with Peyton, since they’re also equal in the bling department?
As for great leadership, no argument from me. I think Romo does what he can while being true to himself. I would argue that Aikman wouldn’t have been Aikman without Smith and Irvin. And vice versa. I think you want Romo to be something he’s not and have built Troy into something he wasn’t. He wasn’t a rah rah guy either. Happily, bringing in Brooking has given the team that element. Romo can’t and shouldn’t have to do it alone.
On leadership
…you have to do what you have to do.
You’re wrong about my view of Aikman. His was a steadying presence and it was his scowl that drove performance in times of adversity.
Those QB’s you list have the same # of blings as Peyton. But that’s where the similarities end and your attempts at a straw man are futile.
And don’t be a hypocrite. No one on this blog would give back the blings we won while Cowboys players were using drugs and had an entourage of hookers always at hand. that kind of arrogance after the fact is too easy to poke at. Face it, people will tolerate almost anything if it will bring them the bling.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
...and again, my ability to reply seems compromised...sorry Fernie
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Give back? No. As usual, you're oversimplifying and misrepresenting once the debate
starts. Hindsight is 20-20, but I will absolutely state that if Troy had been a rapist, and I had known it, I’d have been screaming for the team to dump him. Ten more rings wouldn’t have been worth having him around. I know what Ben R is, and you bet, I wouldn’t take that overgrown, entitled frat boy for all the future rings in the world. I have to wonder why you’d tolerate a man who sexually assaults women on your teams. Or am I oversimplifying your stance?
On Peyton, I’m basing that argument on the terms YOU set; you said it’s all about the bling. Right? If that’s not it, then find some other criteria on which to base your definition of greatness and success, so you can put Peyton above the likes of Aikman and Brady, and quit dissing the guys with great stats who don’t have piles of rings.
Aikman WAS a steadying presence. That is what he brought to the table. That’s not the same as one man simply willing his teams to win; Irvin and Smith complemented him beautifully, and I’d love for Romo to have that same kind of inspiring supporting cast.. Romo brings the team a feeling that the game is never over until it’s over; his own teammates have said so. I don’t expect him to be something he’s not. Always striving to improve? Absolutely; I expect that of every great athlete, and I’m not necessarily disagreeing with all of your original points, although I think you’ve oversimplified some of those problems, too. At any rate, from all reports, Romo IS always working to improve his game. That’s all I can ask.
By the way, hypocrisy would be if I were demanding that the Steelers give back their
rings while not offering the Cowboys’ back, too. This is a team sport; you don’t strip everyone of rings for an individual’s transgressions.
So were you screaming to boot Irvin and Newton from the team when their stories came out?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
So I am confused...
as to what you’re advocating.
How do you feel about the Dallas dynasty knowing what you know now about the drugs, the prostitutes, the white house, and such?
I’m not dissing anyone. I’m just stating a fact that is no different than saying the sun sets in the West. People forget who lost presidential elections. They forget who lost to Usain Bolt.
I’m not telling you anything you don’t know. I’m just saying something you don’t like. It’s important, like Terry, that you recognize the important distinction there.
I’ve made my points clear on Peyton. You don’t have to accept them. But this is a post about Tony Romo. If you like, I’ll write an “homage” to Peyton Manning on the Indy site and you can lay out your counter-argument there. Fair?
Not sure where you think I have oversimplified? Can you elaborate?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I'm not advocating anything. I'm telling you I wouldn't have Ben R on this
team NOW. That’s it, that’s all. I’m not having any trouble understanding you, but I’m not sure I can say that you’re understanding me. Or maybe you’re just being deliberately obtuse (I suspect so). Please re-read my previous post, because I state clearly that the transgressions of individual players don’t change my opinion of a whole team. When Pacman and TO and what-his-face with the gun charges were on the team, I didn’t love the Cowboys any less. I don’t love the Dallas dynasty any less because I found out (after he retired) that Newton dealt pot or that Irvin was self destructing on coke. Is that clear? Let me be even clearer; if Irvin had had a coke problem in college, and it had come out that he was an addict prior to the draft, you bet, I would not have wanted him on the team. Once he was on the team and the revelations came out, if the Cowboys had cut him, I would have accepted it. Did I scream for it? No. A drug problem is self destructive, but no way on anyone’s green earth do I equate it with rape. But let me clarify One. More. Time. lest you choose to misunderstand again: If I know AHEAD OF TIME that a player has raped someone, killed someone, is an addict, a behavior problem, divisive, etc., I DO NOT WANT THEM ON THE TEAM. If they commit rape, kill someone, etc., while on the team, I WANT THEM GONE. If they have a drug problem, I want the team to attempt to help them. If it fails, they need to go. I know ahead of time about Ben R. I would scream bloody mayhem if JJ even hinted at signing him.
I didn’t bring up Manning; you were discussing him above, and I added my opinion, so please don’t accuse me of taking this off the rails. You pretty much do that any time someone disagrees with you, which is what tends to disappoint me about your posts; they always start out so well, and then when the debate begins, so does your condescension and defensiveness.
Oversimplification is talking about slow starts and only talking about Romo’s flaws. Oversimplification is taking my comments that the O line doesn’t execute well enough in the red zone, and that it might be good if Garrett tried more bootlegs, and interpreting that as me blaming Garrett exclusively for red zone problems. Or maybe you don’t get that distinction either. But you’re right; this is about Romo, and while I’m not the one who began the off-topic discussion, I can end my part in it. Nice original post, Bling.
Thanks?
How did you feel about the Pac Man signing at the time? Were you supportive?
How about the T.O. signing? were you against that from the beginning?
Did you lament when Dallas brought in Charles Haley?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I assume you would have opposed Haely too
…based on what you said above.
I’m not sure I would have.
I also supported the signing of T.O. (yes, I’ll admit it).
I’d be careful about what is said about Roethlisberger, since he hasn’t been convicted of anything under the law. It’s clear you don’t like him, but let that not cloud the facts.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I supported Owens too.
The police report about Big Ben is pretty incriminating.
If only 50% of all of that is true, he seriously does have some problems.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Jun 21, 2010 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Most great teams had some ugliness behind the curtains
Bellicheat’s videos…Ray Lewis’ issues…Ken Stabler’s partying
I think T.O. was a calculated risk that didn’t pay off.
But I think I would do it again if a similar situation presented itself.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I think he was necessary risk at the time.
He brought alot of excitement into the organization and created a nice buzz.
Also at the time, Dallas really wasn’t a championship team. He was a necessary step in the evolution of the Cowboys.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Jun 21, 2010 6:09 PM CDT up reply actions
People derided the acquisition of Haley when he came over
…but not me.
I was ecstatic. That guy was all growl and punch-you-in-the-mouth and crazy intensity. His was an ingredient that could not have been replaced by an equally skilled pass rusher because it wasn’t about his skill. It was about his will.
My personal belief is that winners find a way to win. It’s been a truism in my personal life and in my professional life. It’s not about the external conditions that defines them. It’s about how they define their external conditions.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
He had crazy intensity...
Because he was actually crazy.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Jun 21, 2010 6:29 PM CDT up reply actions
But it was the crazy that you wanted in YOUR foxhole
…not in theirs.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
On Danny White...
most people won’t remember that after THE CATCH, he threw a great pass to Pearson that got them nearly into FG range. On the next play, he was sacked (wasn’t it Lawrence Pillers?) and fumbled the ball to the 49ers.
White was a highly prolific QB who was succeeding a legend. He performed well and had some memorable games (check him out against Steve Bartkowski’s Falcons) where he willed the team to victory.
Unfortunately, he is an afterhought in the minds of NFL fans because he was unable to lead them to the glory of the bling.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
thats because his defenses sucked
As you pointed out, the horrid defense back then allowed the catch, if the Cowboys play tough defense, White is now a SB qb.
In Romo we Trust
They had a solid defense
That year, Dallas allowed an average of 17.3 PPG (7th in the NFL) and they were coming off of a 38-0 shut out of the Buccaneers.
The team was +18 in turnover ratio which made them #2 in the NFL (when was the last time you could say that about Dallas?).
You have to admit that White going 16 for 24 and 173 yards wasn’t going to do it that day, especially when his opposite # was going 22 of 35 for 286 and 3 TD’s.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
The Cowboys defenses of the early 80s weren't that good
and not nearly as good as the championship defenses of the 70s and 90s.
BTW, White’s numbers numbers that day certainly were better than Roethlisberger’s in SB XL, so it just proves teams wins games and championships, not QBs.
In Romo we Trust
But not as clutch...
so, you lose.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
there was nothing clutch about Big Ben in SB XL
the Steelers won that game in spite of their qb’s horrid play.
In Romo we Trust
Ridiculous
He won a SUPER BOWL that year as a sophomore QB in the NFL. Who else has done that?
Think about that for a moment.
Now, reflect on how ridiculous your angle is.
Here’s more help in case you need it;
Ben played on the road for all three games leading up to that SB (again, second year player here) and all he did in those 3 games was complete 68% of his passes and throw 7 TD’s to 1 INT.
You can say he had a poor game in the SB, but it’s idiotic to say that the Steelers won Super Bowl XL “in spite of their QB’s horrid play” because they had no shot at being there without his heroics leading up to that game.
Tell me again about Romo’s accomplishments and legacy compared to Ben’s.
And remember how this piece of the thread started; QB’s who have elevated their games in the playoffs. If you get off your Romosexual horse for a moment, you’d appreciate what Ben accomplished on thei field that year, given all of the contexts.
Really Terry, this is one of your more unbelievably groundless POV’s (which is truly saying something).
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
The only thing that is ridiculous is saying Ben won that SB
It’s actually beyond ridiculous as his 24 qb rating was the lowest of any qb of a SB winning team in NFL history.
Ben might have played well in the playoffs to lead his team to that SB, but in SB XL he was awful, there is no way you can deny that fact. This argument is about SB XL, not the 2005 playoffs leading up to it.
Nice try with the red herring, but the Steelers won that game despite Roethlisberger’s awful game and that is a fact
In Romo we Trust
I think we've arrived at a point where further posts would only serve to dilute the greatness of Roethlisberger during that championship run
…which are things Romo hasn’t (and Danny White didn’t) accomplished, while having multiple opportunities.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
His bling says otherwise.
There was nothing great about Romo’s performance against the Giants when Dallas was the #1 seed.
You might want to focus your energies closer to home.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
wrong
His bling says his team played great in spite of him.
Romo’s performance in that Ginats game was far superior to Ben’s performance in SB XL, not even close.
In Romo we Trust
Compare the skill players and O-lines and tell me where you thought Pitt was better and where you thought Dallas was better
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
why do we have to compare other positions
when the qb wins or loses games according to you, right?
But just to play along, the Cowboys OL played much worse in that game than the Steelers OL did that post season and our skill players really weren’t much better.
I’d say the Bus, Parker, Ward, Randle El and Miller were about equal to Julius, MB3, T.O. Witten and Crayton.
In Romo we Trust
Seriously?
Or is that just your way of hindsight justification?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
there was nothing great about Eli either
He put up an awful fourth, where it seemed like he (and our defense) refused to put the game away.
Romo’s wrs had 2 bad drops and a stopped route by Crayton that may’ve resulted in a GW td. Eli’s wrs, who were unreliable during the year, caught EVERYTHING. Seriously, the game was so tight that that right there (or the fact Jacque Reeves sucked) is enough to change a cowboys win to a loss.
Anyone who actually watched that game would be hard pressed to say Eli played better. That was probably Eli’s worst game against us in his career
But you would have to say he made few enough mistakes to allow the team to win
…and sometimes, that’s what a QB needs to do to get his team over the top. Looking at his yards and completions doesn’t tell the story.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
that makes no sense
Playmakers contribute to wins much more than players who simply don’t make mistakes.
You can’t tell me busdrivers win games.
In Romo we Trust
Trent Dilfer COULD have forced the ball more than he did
…but he didn’t.
I give him credit for that.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
BTW, QBs don't achieve team accomplishments
teams win and lose championships…bottom line.
Steelers achieved greatness on that run and Cowboys failed to do so in the 80s and this decade, not Romo or White.
In Romo we Trust
Aikman has his blings, Roethlisberger has his...
You said that QB’s are the “most visible players on the team”. What goes to Canton is PLAYERS with blings, not TEAMS and not a guy whose most famous play is a dropped spot on a chip shot FG attempt.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
not true
Great players go to Canton, they don’t necessarily all have blings. If Romo continues to put up the numbers he has been over the past 4 years for next several, he has a great shot at going to Canton, bling or no bling.
Plunkett has two blings, Dilfer, McMahon, B Johnson, Hostetler, Doug Williams all have bling, yet none will be HOFers. You need to have a have career and while playing for championship teams is a consideration, it’s by no means the determining factor.
In Romo we Trust
How many blings did Marino get?
God Bless Texas
by dwarfknight64 on Jun 24, 2010 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Again, the rules changes have made that kind of performance less impressive
Those were truly great QB’s. But look what kind of career #’s it took to get there. Roethlisberger is already inn after putting up largely unimpressive stats in comparison.
The 4700 yards put up by Matt Schaub won’t impress as much in this era of wingin’ it.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Journeyman vs. a Steeler
All those Steelers with blings seem to get in.
There is some kinda conspiracy in Canton with them.
There also seems to be a bias against Cowboys.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
And dude, while he may be a d-bag, he isn't a rapist until he's convicted of the crime
…at least in this country.
Don’t forget that.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
thats not true
A person can commit a crime without ever being arrested…it actually happens a lot in this country
In Romo we Trust
Prove he was a rapist
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
My Beer Blog: http://tiltingsuds.wordpress.com/
I did not realize she had been cross examined, thanks for clearing that up, because as everyone knows, women never file false rape charges, and especialy never against wealthy/famous guys
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
My Beer Blog: http://tiltingsuds.wordpress.com/
Rapist or not...
I think the police report and the past few years of reports on the guy definitly indicated he’s a piece of trash.
That I think we can all agree on.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Jun 25, 2010 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Rapist or not...
I think the police report and the past few years of reports on the guy definitly indicated he’s a piece of trash.
That I think we can all agree on.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Jun 25, 2010 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree, also twice
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
My Beer Blog: http://tiltingsuds.wordpress.com/
Trash yes, but that's a character judgement...and as you know, I do that all day long
Rapist? That’s something else altogether.
These kinds of distinctions often bamboozle Terry.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
the facts fit the crime
Even you should know one can be guilty of a crime without being charged or prosecuted for it.
This was a perfect example.
In Romo we Trust
You are not guilty until a jury adjudges you guilty
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
My Beer Blog: http://tiltingsuds.wordpress.com/
absolutely not true at all
So you’re telling if you go out and shoot somebody in cold blood, but you’re never arrested or charged for whatever reason, you didn’t commit a crime?
Even your Jersey mentality can’t argue that one.
In Romo we Trust
I think there is a place for you in America's current Markist regime.
Ability is a poor mans wealth.
The main ingredient of stardom is the rest of the team.
Talent is God given, Be humble. Fame is man given, Be grateful. Conceit is self-given, Be careful.
-John Wooden-
Youare not guilty of crime until a jury says you are
you may have committed a series of acts which satisfy the elements of the statutory definition of a crime, but you are not guilty of a crime until you have been convicted.
My clients have all (for the most part) done what they are accused of, but if the state does not prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt, they are not guilty of a god damned thing.
You are also a lawyer, aren’t you? Do I really need to explain this to you?
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
My Beer Blog: http://tiltingsuds.wordpress.com/
you know thats not true rude
A person can absolutely be gulity of a crime without a conviction or even an arrest.
We’re talking reality here, not legalities, big difference.
In Romo we Trust
No, they cannot be guilty without a finding of guilt
That is reality, despite your claim of a big difference
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
My Beer Blog: http://tiltingsuds.wordpress.com/
you're just being obtuse now
If somebody rapes a girl and isn’t caught, he still raped her rather he is charged, arrested or found to be gulity or not.
It still happened and that person is still a rapist.
In Romo we Trust
So you’re telling if you go out and shoot somebody in cold blood, but you’re never arrested or charged for whatever reason, you didn’t commit a crime?
You sure as hell are not GUILTY of a crime in that scenario
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
My Beer Blog: http://tiltingsuds.wordpress.com/
You might not be gulity within the crimianl justice system
but your’e gulity in reality and I’m commenting on reality here, not in a hypothetical legal world.
In Romo we Trust
Even you should know one can be guilty of a crime without being charged or prosecuted for it.
This is absolutely wrong
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
My Beer Blog: http://tiltingsuds.wordpress.com/
You can be found gulity, doesn't mean you actually are guilty
I’ve had clients innocent of the crimes they were charged with despite what a jury says.
You should know as well as anyone the jury is not always exposed to all the truthful facts of a case.
In Romo we Trust
Yes, they actually are guilty. The conviction may be overturned on appeal, but until then they are guilty
The prisons are filled with guys who didn’t do it (or so they claim) doesn’t make them any less guilty.
You were fine when you said “commit a crime” talking out of your tucchus when you said Ben was ‘guilty’
Big difference between ‘guilt’ and ‘commit’
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
My Beer Blog: http://tiltingsuds.wordpress.com/
Frightening line of reasoning Sean...
Because you put the truth, as defined and constructed by man made and managed systems, as more relevant that the absolute truth absent manipulations or errors in judgement.
When an umpire rules a player safe, though they were clearly out, that will change recorded history but not the facts.
If President pardons someone of their crimes did those crimes never happen?
I don’t see this as a winnable argument for either side, but the more faith you put in “a version of reality” as filtered through a system (e.g. legal) the more detached you become from more universal truths and justice.
Laws change, and hero’s such as Gandhi were once simply criminals as defined by “their legal system.” Legal guilt or innocence is just one of many truths and judgments that depend on knowledge, beliefs, and perspective.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jun 29, 2010 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions
this deserves a reply
Because you put the truth, as defined and constructed by man made and managed systems, as more relevant that the absolute truth absent manipulations or errors in judgement. Simply put, ‘absolute truth’ is unknowable. We have no choice but to use man made systems.
If President pardons someone of their crimes did those crimes never happen? Legally, yes, those crimes did not happen. Morally, ethically, metaphysically, is another matter.
<em Legal guilt or innocence is just one of many truths and judgments that depend on knowledge, beliefs, and perspective. Well, yeah, but that is what we were discussing. Terry was not reaching to some Platonic ideal of moral standing in the universe. He was just loose with his language, and tried to recover when he realized it.
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
My Beer Blog: http://tiltingsuds.wordpress.com/
No I wasn't
I said Roethlisberger is a rapist because he raped a woman. He doesn’t need to be charged or arrested or a jury doesn’t need to find him guilty for that to be true.
That was my initial argument and it is the correct one.
In Romo we Trust
I believe he did, I think he did...
but I really think the point that Sean would say is… nobody knows he did it.
You don’t know for a fact that he did it, because for the most part it’s just peoples words.
The DA didn’t press charges and neither did the woman.
Anything said above is purely the opinion of AFB unless said otherwise.
by The Immortal Iron Fist AKA AFB on Jun 30, 2010 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions
The woman was paid off
by Roethlisberger, even the most naive person in the world could see that.
It’s not true that nobody knows he did it, Ben knows and the girl knows what happened.
In Romo we Trust
That's stupid
and legally unfounded.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Absolutely correct
Terry IS generally loose with is language.
To be able to label someone something as vile as a rapist without the empirical factual evidence which proves, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he has committed that crime, flies in the face of what our legal system is based on.
I know what I believe about Ben, but it cannot supersede the facts of the situation. Police reports do not constitute the be-all and end-all of innocence and guilt. If they were, many innocent people would be in jail right now.
Let’s all be careful when making these types of judgements of people.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
From the original text...
I don’t care if Romo passes for 100 yards this year or 10,000 yards. I want him to lead the Cowboys to the Bling.
So you’re barking up the wrong tree, dude.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
so doesn everyone else on this blog
but whether he does or doesn’t won’t chance the fact he’s a great qb.
In Romo we Trust
It doesn't create the "fact" either.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
It will only escalate then
Get used to it.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
The season only makes the bickering increase.
If you want to read some good irrational arguing go read the post game threads after the first NYG game last year.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on Jun 23, 2010 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Now THAT was a party!
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
hm. Seems to me I remembered general united optimism for the most part
well, Monteceto and the giants game excluded
God Bless Texas
by dwarfknight64 on Jun 23, 2010 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe after some of the wins but not after the losses since we all have to have a blame-storming session.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Cowboyfan729 on Jun 23, 2010 10:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, clearly, the first loss to the G-Men was on Romo
…to his credit, he admitted that and it was the turning point in his season and possibly his career.
I bet he went back and read one of my posts about the areas he needed to improve on.
Shhhhhhhhh…I can dream, can’t I?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Probably just projection then. hehe
God Bless Texas
by dwarfknight64 on Jun 24, 2010 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Vacation Alert
I’ll be in the Caribbean next week brothers, so don’t be upset if I don’t comment on a call-out (is you feelin’ me, AFB???).
In that time, I hope Dallas trades Newman for Revis, trades RW for Ryan Clady, trades Marcus Spears for Haloti Ngata and trades Buehler for Rob Bironas.
Regardless, have a great week!
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)

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