Stats I'll Watch Closely This Season: ANPY/A
In the glory days of my youth, I was quite a formidable baseball player. I spent most of my free time playing or watching baseball. That was some time ago, and these days when I watch the occasional baseball game, I have to keep my laptop close at hand in order to look up all those fancy stats they keep showing online or on TV, and that I'd never heard of in my youth. OPS, ISOP, SECA? Baseball has sure come a long way statistically with Sabermetrics and Moneyball.
Football, on the other hand, is easy to understand. I could watch a football game with my 71-year old dad - who last watched a live football game in the 80s, and still thinks Dan Marino is the greatest football player ever - and my dad would still understand every single stat they put on the screen. And whether that's a good thing or a bad thing doesn't really matter. That's just the way it is.
Football is still very much dominated by volume based stats like total yards, number of completions, number of touchdowns and the like. Perhaps football fans and broadcasters are still traumatized by the introduction of the much misunderstood passer rating 40 years ago, which remains one of the few efficiency measures being broadly used today.
So over the next couple of posts, I'd like to introduce you to some of the stats that are a little off the beaten path and that I'll be keeping a close eye on this season. Today, we start with Adjusted Net Passing Yards per Attempt (ANPY/A).
What is ANPY/A?
Adjusted Net Passing Yards per Attempt is a stat that was introduced in a book called The Hidden Game of Football by Bob Carroll, Pete Palmer, and John Thorn. It was recently amended by Chase Stuart at Pro-Football-Reference.com (PFR).
Here's the exact definition:
(Passing Yards + (Passing TDs)*20 - (INTs thrown)*45 - Sack Yards) / (Passing Attempts + Sacks)
And because ANPY/A is kind of hard to pronounce, from now on I'll call it adjusted passing yards in this post.
What does it measure?
It's basically passing yards minus sack yards divided by pass attempts minus sacks - with a 20 yard bonus for every touchdown and a 45 yard penalty for every interception. The result is a number that resembles the more prevalent Yards per Pass Attempt stat and is usually somewhere in the range between three and eight yards.
It provides a single, easy-to-understand number that encapsulates a team's passing performance using five different passing stats, only leaving out fumbles in terms of what a quarterback does. Best of all, it is a rate stat, and not a simple volume- or counting stat.
Why is it important?
Adjusted passing yards is a souped up version of your basic Yards per Pass Attempt stat that reflects both the reality of today's NFL and the importance of passing efficiency in the modern game. ColdHardFootballFacts.com (CHFF) weighed in last year on why they think passing yards per attempt is the single most important indicator of success in all of football:
* Teams that win the passing YPA battle almost always win the game.
* Teams that lose the passing YPA battle almost always lose the game.
* The winningest teams in history are typically the teams with the best passing YPA average
* The winningest quarterbacks in history are typically the quarterbacks with the best passing YPA average
I recommend you read the full version of their rant, it is really quite entertaining.
Adjusted passing yards and the Dallas Cowboys
To understand whether a given stat is relevant or not, it helps to know whether that stat has a high correlation to, say, the outcome of the game. So I went and looked at the adjusted passing yards for the Cowboys and their opponents in the last four years to understand how accurate the stat is a a predictor for who won the game. As an example, here's the adjusted passing yards calculation for the Saints game last season:
| Cowboys - Saints, December 19, 2009 |
|||||||||
| Team | CMP | ATT | YDS | TD | INT | SACK | SACK YDS | ANPY/A | |
| Cowboys | 22 | 34 | 312 | 1 | 0 | 3 | 18 | 8.5 | |
| Saints | 29 | 45 | 298 | 1 | 1 | 4 | 27 | 5.0 | |
In the 64 regular season games from 2006-2009, the Cowboys compiled a 42-22 W/L record. In 38 of their 42 wins (90.5%), the Cowboys had an ANPY/A that was higher than their opponents. In 20 of their 22 losses (90.9%) the Cowboys also lost the adjusted passing yards battle. Adjusted passing yards was an accurate predictor in 58 out of 64 Cowboys games (90.6%). Have you ever seen a stat that had such a high correlation to wins?
Adjusted passing yards and the NFL
mgrex03 over at SB Nation's StampedeBlue.com has an outstanding series of posts dealing with different stats (start reading here) and how they ultimately correlate with wins in the NFL. Among many other stats, he also looked at adjusted passing yards. He looked at the last 13 years in the NFL and found that ANPY/A was an accurate predictor in 89.1% of games in which the offense and defense had above average ANPY/A figures. This method is slightly different from the straight up comparison I did for the Cowboys above, but adjusted passing yards is the stat with the highest winning percentage in the NFL that mgrex03 has found to date.
Adjusted passing yards and Tony Romo
Since adjusted passing yards is a measure of how efficient the passing game is, it can be used just as well to measure individual quarterbacks.
For those of you who've read the MSP Cowboys Annual (and for those of you who haven't: order here), you'll know that Tony Romo surpassed 1,500 career passing attempts in the 2009 season. By passing that mark, Tony Romo has now entered the "official" NFL record books, and he enters the record books at the very top. His career passer rating of 95.6 is third all time behind only Steve Young (96.8) and Philip Rivers (95.8) and ahead of Peyton Manning (95.2) and Kurt Warner (93.7).
But perhaps even more impressive is that he also ranks in the top five in career passing yards per attempts with 8.1 YPA behind only Otto Graham (8.98) and Sid Luckman (8.42) and ahead of Norm Van Brocklin (8.16).
So it won't come as a great surprise to find that he also ranks fairly high in adjusted passing yards. But just how high?
| NFL Career ANPY/A Pass Attempt Leaders |
||||||||
| Top 10 |
11-20 |
|||||||
| Rank | Player | ANPY/A | Rank | Team | ANPY/A | |||
| 1 | Tony Romo | 7.20 | 11 | Dan Marino | 6.55 | |||
| 2 | Philip Rivers | 7.15 | 12 | Matt Ryan | 6.29 | |||
| 3 | Peyton Manning | 7.10 | 13 | Ben Roethlisberger | 6.26 | |||
| 4 | Aaron Rodgers | 6.86 | 14 | Trent Green | 6.24 | |||
| 5 | Steve Young | 6.85 | 14 | Jeff Garcia | 6.24 | |||
| 6 | Kurt Warner | 6.71 | 16 | Chad Pennington | 6.08 | |||
| 7 | Matt Schaub | 6.71 | 17 | Carson Palmer | 6.06 | |||
| 8 | Tom Brady | 6.65 | 18 | Brett Favre | 5.98 | |||
| 9 | Drew Brees | 6.61 | 19 | Donovan McNabb | 5.97 | |||
| 10 | Joe Montana | 6.60 | 20 | Mark Rypien | 5.96 | |||
Of course, you'll notice quickly that the list above is populated largely by quarterbacks who are still active today. We've detailed extensively how the NFL has turned into a Passer's Paradise and have also looked at how today's crop of QBs isn't automatically better than the Peerless Passers of yesteryear.
But still, to be the career leader in this stat category, that is a mighty fine achievement Mr. Romo. Even the good folks at PFR are beginning to realize that Tony Romo's career stats may not be as misleading as they may have thought.
Adjusted passing yards as a measure of team strength
Another way to look at this stat is by calculating the difference between a team's adjusted passing yards gained on offense minus the same metric given up on defense. This adjusted passing yards differential effectively tells you how many more adjusted yards a team gains per pass attempt than its opponents, and it can be a very strong indicator of team strength.
ANPY/A Differential by NFL team, 2009 (click column header to sort)
| Team | Offensive ANPY/A | Defensive ANPY/A | ANPY/A Differential |
|---|---|---|---|
| Packers | 6.8 | 3.7 | 3.1 |
| Saints | 7.4 | 4.5 | 2.9 |
| Chargers | 7.7 | 5.2 | 2.5 |
| Eagles | 6.4 | 4.2 | 2.2 |
| Colts | 6.5 | 4.7 | 1.8 |
| Patriots | 6.8 | 5.1 | 1.7 |
| Cowboys | 7.1 | 5.4 | 1.7 |
| Vikings | 7.1 | 5.6 | 1.5 |
| Texans | 6.8 | 5.3 | 1.5 |
| Steelers | 6.5 | 5.3 | 1.2 |
| Ravens | 5.6 | 4.5 | 1.1 |
| Broncos | 5.5 | 4.4 | 1.1 |
| Cardinals | 5.6 | 4.7 | 0.9 |
| Bengals | 5.0 | 4.4 | 0.6 |
| Giants | 6.4 | 5.9 | 0.5 |
| Bills | 3.8 | 3.3 | 0.5 |
| Jets | 3.7 | 3.3 | 0.4 |
| 49ers | 4.7 | 4.8 | -0.1 |
| Panthers | 4.1 | 4.2 | -0.1 |
| Redskins | 5.1 | 5.5 | -0.4 |
| Titans | 5.1 | 5.6 | -0.5 |
| Jaguars | 5.4 | 6.4 | -1.0 |
| Falcons | 5.1 | 6.1 | -1.0 |
| Bears | 4.2 | 5.5 | -1.3 |
| Seahawks | 4.4 | 6.1 | -1.7 |
| Dolphins | 4.3 | 6.2 | -1.9 |
| Buccaneers | 3.3 | 5.4 | -2.1 |
| Chiefs | 4.0 | 6.2 | -2.2 |
| Raiders | 3.5 | 6.5 | -3.0 |
| Browns | 2.9 | 6.5 | -3.6 |
| Rams | 3.2 | 7.0 | -3.8 |
| Lions | 3.0 | 7.3 | -4.3 |
The Cowboys tied with the Vikings for the third best adjusted passing yards offense, but ranked only 17th in adjusted yards pass defense. But the 1.7 adjusted yard differential was still good enough to tie with the Patriots for 6th place in the league.
As you look at the differentials, you'll find that there is a strong correlation between the yards differential and the number of wins per team. The Bills are the only team on the list with a positive yardage differential that had a losing record last season. Conversely, the Falcons are the only team with a negative yardage differential with a winning season last year.
In fact, the correlation (r²) between the adjusted passing yards differential and the number of wins in 2009 was an astonishingly high 0.78.
When all is said and done, ANPY/A may just be the Robitussin of stats. No matter what you've got, Robitussin better handle it.
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Good Read
I think a lot of fans take how good Romo is for granted; although despite what stats say he’s not the greatest ever, he’s pretty damn good and we’re lucky to have him.
17th......Hopefully that ranking is moving up.
I assume the 5.4 comes from the lack of turnovers.
As good as Green Bay’s defense was last year, I’m surprised their ANPY/A is as low as it is with all the sacks Rodgers took.
Football is an incredible game. Sometimes it's so incredible, it's unbelievable. --
Tom Landry
All this math makes my head hurt
But I love this stuff. Now, is there any way to figure out how a team is doing and compare the projected ANDY/PANDY ANPY/A against that of another team, and do the same for the defenses, and get a prediction for who should win? If you can, that would make a great post every week for the upcoming game.
The new mantra: No more injuries. No more injuries. Everybody now: NO MORE INJURIES!
Note that my comment assumes my own inability to do this
The new mantra: No more injuries. No more injuries. Everybody now: NO MORE INJURIES!
www.advancednflstats.com already does something similar. Brian Burke uses more variables than just ANPY/A. Here’s an example from the divisional round of the playoffs.
also, note that the R-squared of 0.78 is calculated after the fact on the results from the game (i.e. it’s not calculating how well it projects wins, it calculates how well it explains wins).
Any given team is going to outperform/underperform their average for the actual game.
For example, New Orleans ANPY/A against Dallas was 5.0. And Dallas ANY/A against New Orleans was 8.5.
However, for the season New Orleans had an offensive ANPY/A of 7.4 / Defensive ANPY/A of 4.5 and Dallas had an offensive ANPY/A of 7.1 / Defensive ANPY/A of 5.4.
Going off ANPY/A would have projected a New Orleans win.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Aug 24, 2010 8:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Great stuff...but give me
K.I.S.S. = Romo has at least 25 TDs and less than 10 INTs. 30 sacks or less given up. 3-RBs avg at least close to 4.5 avg combined and almost 2,000 total yds. Defense ranks in top 10 in least points given up and turnovers created. Also, 3rd-down conversions of less than 35%. At least 45 sacks. Offense makes over 50% in 3rd downs. Special Teams in top 10 in least return yds. Buehler makes 80% of FGs and finsihes near top of touchbacks again. KO return avg of over 26 yds. PR avg over 10yds. POOF!! SuperBowl Victory baby…guaranteed!!!
I have couple of questions
Did you look into how Bob or Chase justified the constants of 20 and 45?
The purpose are easy to understand but did they just pull those numbers out of their …
Also wouldn’t the constants be reversed for the defense since giving up a TD is worse than getting a turnover since there is not guarantee of a score?
Woodson is a Hall of Famer!!!
Its been a long time since I read the book...
but I am pretty sure the 45 on an INT was effectively the yardage lost due to the INT i.e. an average punt plus and average INT return (less the yardage of the intercepted pass downfield).
Their analysis was obviously more sophisticated. If I recall correctly they did a lot of analysis on the “value” of a play in relation to how that play increased your probability of scoring points. I think they used this analysis as part of the base work for their weightings in their revised formula.
The other key bit of their work was breaking down the algebra of the NFL’s formula to show that some metrics were effectively counted twice, the bottom line being that the NFL’s formula unfairly favoured QB’s who threw more short passes.
"Where's Woody? - We need another Darren Woodson
+1
I pretty much got the grasp of that equation but I too would like to know how did they come up with those 20/45 variables.
Very good read by the way
Sources for 20 and 45
Doug Drinen of PFR discussess the origin of the 45 yards in a little more detail in this thread, and Brian Burke of AdvanceNFLStats also touches on the 45 yards in this post. Chase Stuart from PFR explains here why a TD is valued at 20 yards.
by One.Cool.Customer on Aug 25, 2010 8:22 AM CDT up reply actions
Thanks. Oh.Cool.Cne
keep them coming
Woodson is a Hall of Famer!!!
by I'm a Cowboy on Aug 25, 2010 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions
thanks for this
I really enjoy that gradually BTB readers are coming around to the view that passing is the key to winning (and hopefully over time the calls for more runs will decrease).
to me the key takeaway is
but ranked only 17th in adjusted yards pass defense.
Dallas is already 3rd best in passing offense. The big opportunity for improvement is the pass defense.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Aug 24, 2010 7:59 PM CDT reply actions
they still need to run
to set up the pass in the NFC East & we play 3 teams that have bad weather & open stadiums. i think it changes in every division bc your chasing the guys up top to win so you build to counter what their doing on offense & defense. also teams that are in bad weather situations like to run more then pass most of the time. do you think P.Manning would have the same success playing in a open stadium up north in the cold, rain wind, etc w/ the timing of that offense?
Move Over Sweetness, Make A Place For Emmitt!
by Va_Cowboy_Fan on Aug 24, 2010 10:31 PM CDT up reply actions
do you think P.Manning would have the same success playing in a open stadium up north in the cold, rain wind, etc w/ the timing of that offense?
I’ll say I’m in the don’t know category. Green Bay was right behind Dallas is ANPY/A and they play in bad conditions. In general, I’m somewhat skeptical that passing efficiency declines as you go farther north. Take a look at the offensive ANPY/A? Do you see a relationship between location and passing efficiency?
I think your statement, while rhetorically persuasive, is logically misleading. Playing in a statium in the northeast does guarantee colder weather. It doesn’t necessarily guarantee worse rain/wind than any other stadium (snow I’ll grant you). And most games are not going to have inclement (rain/snow/strong wind) weather.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Aug 25, 2010 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions
And so I hear the Vikings are desperate at the wide receiver position
Sidney Rice out approx 8 games, Percy Harvin dealing with bd cases of migranes and berrian just sucks……and of course they payed like 20 million for favre so now they need someone t throw the ball to…..they’re so badly desperate they signed javon walker…..cmon Jerry do your thing….convince the pricks to take roy and get Steve Hutchinson…..cmoooooonnnnnn
Maybe you miss understood we are not trying to trade the Herd just Hurd.
Because the only way we get Steve Hutch is if we trade part of the Herd.
Woodson is a Hall of Famer!!!
by I'm a Cowboy on Aug 24, 2010 8:56 PM CDT up reply actions
really great post
it’s clearly a passing league now & seeing the most 4,000 yard passers in a season this year was crazy. i wonder how RoMo looks after 1,500 pass attempts compared to Montana’s first 1,500…
Hurd might not be gone so fast, Ogletree suffered a hamstring injury today but is listed practice to practice since they only have 3 left. they can’t confirm he’ll play against the Texans yet…
Move Over Sweetness, Make A Place For Emmitt!
Great post and great book (Hidden Football)
You can still find it on Amazon. (They came up with a second edition that I didn’t think was as good – based more around fantasy footbal, so don’t get the two confused)
This book was the first bit of this type of analysis on Football that I ever saw, really gave me a hunger for more – hence hanging around on this blog. I believe it was a key inspiration for KC Joyner and Football Outsiders – and perhaps also for OCC….
"Where's Woody? - We need another Darren Woodson
Not trying to hijack the thread
but since the subject is stats, here are some interesting ones.
Im sure hearing alot of consternation out there about the dallas offense’s inability to score this pre-season. Im also hearing alot about how the running game is kaput.
Took a look at last year’s pre-season run numbers over the first 3 pre-season games.
barber was 4 for 13, 10 for 32, and 12 for 47. not that good (3.5 yard average)
jones had a better average, but I think he was running against backups.
Anyway, look at the first two games in the regular season:
Barber is 14 for 79 yards (5.6 average)
he exploded against the gints with 18 for 124 (6.8 average). Remember that barber went down in the gints game like he had been shot in the leg. he was never the same the rest of the season.
The point is, I expect better rushing numbers in the regular season, much better.
Wow
Lurked for a while, but finally joined, and I must say, OCC, your posts are some of the most in depth I have seen. Thank you for all the info and research you do. This is a very interesting stat to keep an eye on. I am interested to see it play out throughout the year.
+1
OCC, this is great stuff :)
Original Pet-Cats: Duane Thomas, Roger Staubach, Walt Garrison, Charlie Waters, Bob Lilly
... oops ... and welcome, K2 :)
Original Pet-Cats: Duane Thomas, Roger Staubach, Walt Garrison, Charlie Waters, Bob Lilly
Thanks
Also, I want to kick my self for not picking a different adjective besides interesting twice. Curious, intrigued, etc. lol
by k2spitfire88 on Aug 25, 2010 5:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Yea, I was gonna say something about that ...
But I’d already used the words dumbass and pathetic twice today :)
(just kidding! LOL … and actually, you used “interesting” … and then “interested” … two worthy opponents in most conversastions :)
Original Pet-Cats: Duane Thomas, Roger Staubach, Walt Garrison, Charlie Waters, Bob Lilly
just curious
But what is the ANCP/A (adjusted net cheerleader post / attempt) that OCC has, bet it has tanked in the last few posts ;)
I actively recognize my own stupidity, thank you!!!
by levcd on Aug 25, 2010 12:26 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
man your gonna scew the stats:)
I actively recognize my own stupidity, thank you!!!
by levcd on Aug 25, 2010 2:14 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
levcd ... you ALMOST read my mind there :)
Original Pet-Cats: Duane Thomas, Roger Staubach, Walt Garrison, Charlie Waters, Bob Lilly
Hard to believe the gold standard of football stats has finally been found
But especially when the game has changed so very much from the early years. Just wondering if the correlation has always been there if that explains why Barry Sanders and OJ Simpson don’t have rings (well of course we know what happened to OJ’s rings – that crooked collectibles dealer must have stolen them).
ColdHardFootballFacts.com (CHHF) weighed in last year on why they think passing yards per attempt is the single most important indicator of success in all of football:
* Teams that win the passing YPA battle almost always win the game.
* Teams that lose the passing YPA battle almost always lose the game.
* The winningest teams in history are typically the teams with the best passing YPA average
* The winningest quarterbacks in history are typically the quarterbacks with the best passing YPA average
Of course the typo should read (CHFF). The points one and two seem rather oddly inverse. What am I missing that they need to be separately expressed? Again point three is the eye opener, with the passing rules changed so much now that the earlier best teams in league history were also the best YPA average. So the rules now have given the predominate factor in history an even greater edge. Hmmm . . . . get thee a better O-line to protect Mr Romo please, Mr Jones.
But especially when the game has changed so very much from the early years.
Just one example: Staubach was a stat king yet doesn’t even make this top – 20
Original Pet-Cats: Duane Thomas, Roger Staubach, Walt Garrison, Charlie Waters, Bob Lilly
I believe Roger retired with the passer rating record
That didn’t last long. Different era, different game.
by StillHateTheGiants on Aug 25, 2010 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Kudos, as always, Mister One.Coolness
It’s tiresome “defending” Romo to non-fans, and more so to Cowboys’ fans. I’m not sure what happed along the way that caused fans to begin expecting perfection, but the micro-scrutiny that the media provides to stir the pot and generate ratings must play a role.
The team is fortunate to have an excellent QB and I personally find him to be among the most entertaining to watch on any team.
FREE THE OGLETREE!!!
among the most entertaining to watch on any team.
… ever!
To me, Romo’s up there with Staubach, Tarkenton, Elway, etc. in terms of both passing ability and elusiveness …
But right or wrong, he needs the bling to silence the critics.
Original Pet-Cats: Duane Thomas, Roger Staubach, Walt Garrison, Charlie Waters, Bob Lilly
Funny thing
All three QBs you listed were labeled as unable to win the big one at some point in their career.
Nowadays pretty much ALL of them are
Until they do.
God Bless Texas
by dwarfknight64 on Aug 25, 2010 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes
but you hear said about Romo a lot more then any other non-SB winning QB out there.
by staubachfan on Aug 25, 2010 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions
That's
probably because he’s got such monster stats that are right there with QBs that have won several SBs, but the “December swoon” and muffing a certain field goal hold several years ago burned it into people’s minds that he has problems with the postseason, thus has problems winning the big game.
He still needs to take the team to get the 6th bling, it irks me that we don’t have the most of them anymore. He does that, and he’ll be remembered as one of the better (best isn’t quite the word) QBs in history. He brings home 2+, and one of the best could start to apply.
Man I can’t WAIT for the next two weeks to be done with!
I agree with the perception
But it is interesting that in the ultimate team game an individuals recognition is being held hostage because of team accomplishments. I think people think of Marino and Elway (before he won 2 SBs) as being among the greatest ever. And the same “analysts” that say Romo can’t win in December/play offs/a big game/the big one probably don’t even realize how good his stats are nor do they look at his individual accomplishments during those games.
by staubachfan on Aug 25, 2010 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree, it's crazy
but that’s the media narrative and it can’t be changed apparently. I think P Manning is one of the greatest to play that I’ve ever seen, but without his SB title he’d hear plenty of "but"s attached to him. It’s silliness.
On the other hand, I understand it for the HoF only because otherwise the place would be filled to the top with QBs, so they had to have something to weed out the great from the great. It’s not a great method, but I think they just needed A method.
FREE THE OGLETREE!!!
See #2 on the top ten list provided
Phillip Rivers is in pretty much the same boat, but (as you pointed out) doesn’t catch nearly as much criticism for it.
Football is an incredible game. Sometimes it's so incredible, it's unbelievable. --
Tom Landry
by Pnut Gallery on Aug 25, 2010 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions
And Aaron Rodgers just seems to get praise
Starter for one year less than Tony, but hasn’t won the big one yet. And he was selected to replace the All Time Greatest Quarterback Ever To Don Shoulderpads and Whine About Getting Too Much Attention, wasn’t he?
The new mantra: No more injuries. No more injuries. Everybody now: NO MORE INJURIES!
Also see Aaron Rodgers
Very similar to Romo in almost all respects, no bling, but nothing but love from the media. And you think he would be scrutinized more harshly since he was selected to replace the Greatest Quarterback of All Times (in terms of media fascination).
The new mantra: No more injuries. No more injuries. Everybody now: NO MORE INJURIES!
Don't know what is going on
I try to post, and then it is not there. I put it back in, and now there are two.
Sorry
The new mantra: No more injuries. No more injuries. Everybody now: NO MORE INJURIES!
Ha
- "If you know so much about women why are you here at the Gas 'n' Sip on a Saturday night completely alone drinking beers with no women anywhere?"
- "By choice! Man"
by fan since '65 on Aug 26, 2010 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Ha
- "If you know so much about women why are you here at the Gas 'n' Sip on a Saturday night completely alone drinking beers with no women anywhere?"
- "By choice! Man"
by fan since '65 on Aug 26, 2010 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Rivers is generally considered a big jerk
So the media doesn’t concern themselves with talking about him.
The media (much like ppl who dont know anything about other teams) will continue to use the 1-line phrases associated with them.
For Rivers its his trash-talking, so he comes off like a bad guy. Then they just leave it alone.
I think for Romo … he is loved or hated. So they give him praise when he is having one of his monster games and then talk about the “big games” when he isn’t.
Emmitt vs Romo
They Bash Emmitt, cuz his “team” was so fantastic that everything was easy and he never had to work for it. The Cowboys don’t lose as a team, its all Romo’s fault.
Anything you can find to bash the ’Boys is fair game.
+22
Star on the helmet = target on the back
The new mantra: No more injuries. No more injuries. Everybody now: NO MORE INJURIES!
The national media live in New York
There’s a reason 2007 New York Giants superbowl is considered the best superbowl of the decade.
There’s a reason the New York Jets have more hype around them than any 9-7 team in history.
And there’s a reason the national media doesn’t like the DALLAS Cowboys that’s owned by that crazy oil man with a southern accent.
by Blue Eyed Devil on Aug 25, 2010 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions
I hate the Giants and despise Eli, but come on ... beating the Pats was impressive
The Jets are a much better example, and I like them TONS more than the Giants. Every year the media hypes them, and almost every year they suck.
The Cowboys, as America’s team, is hated by more in-part because they are also loved by more people than any other team. Hate the analogy, but they’re the closest the NFL has to the NY Yankees.
The national media is very NY-centric, and bashing them on most every front is warranted, but I just think when it comes to sports they do what sells.
Original Pet-Cats: Duane Thomas, Roger Staubach, Walt Garrison, Charlie Waters, Bob Lilly
good point ... yet in a different era, he was revered by Minnesota fans :)
Original Pet-Cats: Duane Thomas, Roger Staubach, Walt Garrison, Charlie Waters, Bob Lilly
I think you have opened up a topic it would be interesting to explore in a full thread.
At times I’ve found myself in the group being critical of Romo. I was also one of his earliest supporters and think he’s a great QB. I’ve never fully understood some of the criticism. In my case, he used to make a lot more just plain dumb mistakes. That is probably the gunslinger stuff Parcells warned us all about. He seemed to take a huge step forward last year. We have seen how outstanding he can be then when he made a really boneheaded play it just stood out.
I think another reason has been that no matter how boneheaded something might be, there are people cough cough………who are just too adamant in their defense of him (not to mention claim to know exactly what he is thinking and even his favorite color). They are completely unobjective and wouldn’t admit he ever made a mistake. With that group you can’t even ask questions or you are labelled a hater. That just stokes the fire with me.
I think Tony Romo is legitimately one of the top QB’s in the NFL right now.
by StillHateTheGiants on Aug 25, 2010 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions
not true
I’ve never denied Romo’s bad games. I only defend him when the hate and criticism becomes over the top. You even admitted you don’t understand some of the criticism, that just proves it’s very unreasonable and unjustified many times.
What stokes fire with me is the fact prior to Romo taking over, the team was mediocre at best and didn’t stand a chance to succeed in post season play or even get there most of the time. The team finally finds a diamond in the rough that has the potential to lead us to the promised land and fans want to ride him out of town before he gets the chance to learn the position. That more than anything pissed me off and was the impetus for my perceived over the top defense of him.
In Romo we Trust
I only defend him when the hate and criticism becomes over the top.
This is pure unadulterated horse hooey. When someone pointed out that Romo practiced when sick, you chimed in and said that “something” told you that other “star franchise qbs” would have skipped practice. It was not enough that Romo practiced while sick, you needed to tear down other top Qbs.
We all get it, you love Romo, but please don’t pretend that you merely come on here to correct factual mistakes and right the injustices of unfair criticisms, as all criticism of Romo is over the top to you, and anyone who does not express the agape you do for #9 is a hater in your eyes..
By the way, I am still waiting for you to name some names on those “star franchise qbs” who’d skip the practice that Romo made it to.
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
My Beer Blog: http://tiltingsuds.wordpress.com/
thats not defending him
thats praising him and I’ll be the first to admit I’m a huge fan and will bragg about him every chance I get. But thats not defending him against criticism.
And it’s simply not true that all criticism of Romo is over the top, when he has a bad game and Grizz or Raf call him out, I’ll never say anything about it. It’s the fans who want to tar and feather him that I have a problem with and call haters.
In Romo we Trust
So tearing down other "star franchise qbs" (who have yet to be named by the way) qualifies as praise of Romo?
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
My Beer Blog: http://tiltingsuds.wordpress.com/
You can't win, Terry
You are the man everyone loves to hate on. But don’t let it get to you.
I do think that Romo seems to get a lot more grief than other QBs in similar situations. I think if he were having identical stats, but wearing a different uniform, he would be talked about differently. There is a mystique about the Star.
The new mantra: No more injuries. No more injuries. Everybody now: NO MORE INJURIES!
Stand by your guns, Terry
I sometimes wonder how Romo would be looked at by the media if everything about him was exactly the same except the uniform he wears.
I realize that this doesn’t really play into the discussions on BTB, but when I see the national media talk about him like he can never be a real success, I have to go back and check to make sure he has been starting for, yeah, three and a half seasons.
I like so see someone stand up for him, especially when he is earning the support.
Besides, Terry is funny when he’s not in a snit.
The new mantra: No more injuries. No more injuries. Everybody now: NO MORE INJURIES!
I don't know what happened, but I thought I had lost the first of these posts
So I went back and rewrote it. Sorry ’bout that
The new mantra: No more injuries. No more injuries. Everybody now: NO MORE INJURIES!
No apologies ... I liked your second one better anyway :)
Original Pet-Cats: Duane Thomas, Roger Staubach, Walt Garrison, Charlie Waters, Bob Lilly
I think you might be correct
But it may not be the uniform. I think his coming out nowhere and his quirkiness on the field (elusiveness, odd throwing platforms and arm angles) is just too much for guys who want to see the 6’5" drop-back statue from a big-time college throwing with the classic form.
FREE THE OGLETREE!!!
not to mention he doesn't have the pedigree
of being a high draft pick. A lot of fans think you must be more talented and better simply because of your draft status, Carson Palmer comes to mind relative to this perception.
If you look at his stats and what his teams have accomplished with him as a starter, Romo is simply a better qb, but a lot of fans look at his size, arm and pedigree as a high first rounder (number one over all to be exact) and they just assume he’s better than an undrafted qb from a small college.
In Romo we Trust
I have the perfect QB...

AFB Condensed- New name, same flavor.
Quoting yourself doesn't require your own name attached to it. I'm going to assume if there isn't anyone else's name attached it's yours.
is that because you like Chewie's arm strength and quick release or is it his game management ability?
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Aug 26, 2010 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Arm strength
and a strong precense in the huddle.
I mean really what can be more intimidating than “NGARRRRRRRRR”. I don’t know if I spelled that right.
AFB Condensed- New name, same flavor.
Quoting yourself doesn't require your own name attached to it. I'm going to assume if there isn't anyone else's name attached it's yours.
I hear you … you definitely wouldn’t want to be a lineman coming back to the huddle after getting Chewie sacked.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Aug 26, 2010 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions
All movies should have Wookies in them, not just the Star Wars franchise
Lifetime Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
My Beer Blog: http://tiltingsuds.wordpress.com/
I really didn't intent to make it that personal.
Terry and I have argued, he’s not the only guy I meant though.
I do admit Romo has made me crazy, he’s made some really boneheaded plays. As I wrote earlier, he made a lot of progress last year in that dept.
by StillHateTheGiants on Aug 25, 2010 7:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Lets be honest here people
What does a dropped FG snap have anything to do with QB ability to win in the playoffs? If the 2nd string QB or the punter was the holder would you still say Romo couldn’t win?
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by fan since '65 on Aug 26, 2010 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions
I assume that was a general point, not directed to me.
I never faulted Romo for that play. It was a physical mistake. The ones that have made me crazy were the boneheaded mental errors and decisions. I rarely fault players for physical mistakes unless there’s a pattern that suggests they’re not working to get better.
by StillHateTheGiants on Aug 27, 2010 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Great research.
That was cool, Cool. I think Romo’s ranking can be attributed to his off the charts great passing, combined with his mobility/ability to avoid the sack. And I imagine he only took the #1 slot after last season when he also reduced his interceptions. I think he’s lucky they don’t count fumbles, however.
A great defense could be the counter to this stat. After giving up the interception, which weights a great YPA stat, a defense that stops the opposing team from cashing the interception in is the trump card.
It also seems to properly reflect someone like Favre, who though he probably had an epic ANPY/A last season, is way down on the all-time chart because of his large number of career interceptions.
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem.
So much for running the ball and stoppng the run as keys to wins
Funny that the running game isn’t mentioned at all. No doubt running affects the adjusting passing stats as the ability to run and stop the run have some effect on a team’s ability to pass or stop the pass. But its still amazing that the passing stat is 90% predictive without directly accounting for the running game!
Check out my movie - Standards of Ethical Conduct
OCC, just awesome!
I’m enough of a number guy to be astounded at the quality of this analysis. Just fantastic!!!
Off topic, but am I crazy to think
that if Holland plays well he could stay in the starting lineup when Kosier becomes healthy again? If Kosier is versatile enough to play C, he could play RG too, right?
I think this is really unlikely because I don’t think Holland is good enough and more I don’t think the Cowboys would ever bench someone as expensive as Bigg
Thing is....
Kosier may be our best Olineman. I know he’s not the biggest or strongest. And we on these boards have been trying to replace him for several years. But the guy gets the job done. He’s great out in space. He makes his assignments. You rarely see a guy come free up his gap like you do other spots. No, he’s not a road grader. But I’d be happy with more guys like him. I suspect Romo would too.
So are you saying you wouldn't Kosier to move to RG?
If Holland can play at level just slightly better than Davis, I’d rather have Holland in there. Even if we gave a little away in the run game, it would be worth it if he could pick up a twist/stunt.
Just out of curiousity...
does anyone know if Kosier would even be good at the right side?
AFB Condensed- New name, same flavor.
Quoting yourself doesn't require your own name attached to it. I'm going to assume if there isn't anyone else's name attached it's yours.
Not sure
But I do remember when Dallas signed him there were a lot of comments about how many different position he had played in Detroit. He was versatile.
by StillHateTheGiants on Aug 25, 2010 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions
The play of individual offensive lineman has to be viewed in a context.
Kosier’s overall effectiveness has proven to be more important to the offensive line then most fans thought prior to his injury. At the same time his effectiveness of getting by with average or below average power by being a very good tactician has only been proven when he is surrounded by offensive lineman that have power plenty of power.
While Georde and Bigg might not be brilliant tacticians nor the most consistent players they physically dominate the man in front of them the vast majority of plays. This has the effect of the defensive line and makes it more difficult to exploit Kosier’s by over matching him physically.
Bigg and Gerode are road graders and I believe the team is not in near as much a hurry to replace them in the starting lineup as some here are.
I see what you're saying and Kosier
most definitely benefits when he gets to doubleteam with another lineman on a DT before scraping off to a LB. However, Kosier is going to be in the lineup regardless, so I’m not really asking to compare him and Bigg, I’m wondering about Holland vs. Bigg.
I don’t know if Holland has the power to be considered a road grader, I just know he’s fat so there could be a chance he does. Besides, I’m reluctant to be too impressed by Gurode and Bigg. Our goalline woes last year prove that size doesn’t necessarily make you a powerful road grader.
Holland is a journeyman lineman for a reason
He makes a solid backup if he is healthy and in shape (two things that are not a given), but he is not going to knock any of the Cowboys starting lineman out of the lineup when they are healthy.
I would like to see more guys like Free....
Guys who can actually hold their man while they can also move a bit and block downfield. No wonder we never call screen passes….van you imagine asking Bigg or Flo do go block downfield. If we can set up Witten and Bennet to the left of Free, I see us calling some screen to tht side and causing some damage…..
The Oline is my biggest worry on this team. I dont have much faith in them.
I'd like to see more guys like Free who can concuss little DB's on screen passes (e.g. Randall Gay)
In fact, I’d like to see Garrett start off games by calling about 5 straight bubble / smoke screens and see if he can get Free dropping the anvil on some of these precious little DBs.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Aug 25, 2010 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions
That would be pretty funny.
I doubt we’ll ever see 5 straight screens but that would be funny.
AFB Condensed- New name, same flavor.
Quoting yourself doesn't require your own name attached to it. I'm going to assume if there isn't anyone else's name attached it's yours.
I love it
I love seeing DBs get destroyed.
There was one play last year where Doug Free absolutely blind-sided a cornerback. I wish I could find it on youtube. I love that stuff.
Just take the DBs out of the game. I was giddy when the Eagles had to take a time out against us because we had injured every single last one of their safeties and they had to take a time out to get one of them to hobble back onto the field.
Go to war, take them out.
by Blue Eyed Devil on Aug 25, 2010 10:07 PM CDT up reply actions
that was the play I mentioned.
It was against New Orleans and it was Randall Gay.
He knocked Gay out of the game with a concussion.
Please post a link if you find a video.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Aug 25, 2010 10:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Ya I agree with you, but
I would love to see that happen though as I think the consensus around here is that LD was our worst lineman last year
Bigg can move and he does pull well.
Just saying
by Musiccitynorm on Aug 25, 2010 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Ya ironically he seems to be best at run blocking on the move
as opposed to pass blocking or straight ahead blocking
Nice read OCC
It is interesting that without directly factoring in the running game, the ability to stop the run, special teams and fumbles that a statisitic could have a 90% correllation to winning. I wonder how close the numbers were on the 10% of games that went the otherway.
Interesting question
The two losses where we had a higher ANPY/A than the opp’s:
2006, Wk 17, Dal (8.4) – Det (6.6): 31-39 (Lions scored 9 points in the last 5 minutes of the game)
2008, Wk 6, Dal (8.6) – Ari (7.1): 24-30 (Cardinals win in OT, Romo injured and out for three games, McBriar out for season)
Four wins in which we overcame a lower ANPY/A
2006, Wk 13, Dal (4.7) – NYG (8.6): 23-20 (Gramatica FG from 40 yards with 1 minute left wins the game)
2007, Wk 5, Dal (2.5) – Buf (3.0): 25-24 (5 INT Extravaganza by T. Romo)
2008, Wk 8, Dal (3.4) – TB (4.7): 13-9 (TB cannot score a TD against the Cowboys who are led by the mighty Brad Johnson)
2009, Wk 11, Dal (4.5) – Was (5.3): 7-6 (Crayton TD in the fourth saves a forgettable day)
by One.Cool.Customer on Aug 25, 2010 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions
Very Cool :)
I realize there aren’t many statisticians among us, but even the common gambler knows that a mere 60% swing in odds is tremendous… higher odds in any gambling situation is unusual. Yet this stat is not only higher … but MASSIVELY so … 90% is practically surreal. I’d love to review how this stat stands against point spreads.
The examples above point to how exceptional it is that this statistic is wrong. Average score differential for these six exceptions is less than FOUR!!!
Original Pet-Cats: Duane Thomas, Roger Staubach, Walt Garrison, Charlie Waters, Bob Lilly
see my comment above to pineywoods
I think the use of the word ‘predictor’ is confusing people.
The correlation was calculated after the fact on the game results.
For example, point differential (i.e. who scores more points) would have a correlation of 1, right?
But using point differential, before the game, to predict the outcome is obviously not accurate 100% of the time (i.e. does not have a correlation of 1).
You might want to clarify the distinction between pre-game / post-game correlation.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Aug 25, 2010 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions
I understand the distinction
And your analogy of point differential is a good one… take for example the Saints last year. Their offense was so prolific that their point differential probably led the league. They also were winning ALL of their games. However, it took Vegas a little while to catch up in terms of point spreads.
You can use seasonal stats or other variations in a predictive manner. But ultimately, the point spreads are supposed even these advantages out. I just think it would be interesting to see if this stat offers a good predictor against the spread. Not after the fact, but as a leading indicator.
Original Pet-Cats: Duane Thomas, Roger Staubach, Walt Garrison, Charlie Waters, Bob Lilly
Great team stat
This stat is very dependent upon O-Line play. A line that gives up a lot of sacks impacts the ANPY/A. Lots of sacks also means even more hurries, which leads to interceptions, which kills the ANPY/A even more. An O-Line that gives good protection allows the QB to look further down field for his targets, thus increasing the ANPY/A.
I believe that is why the stat is so good at predicting victory. A team with just a good QB or just a good O-Line is not nearly the threat as a team with both.
I’m afraid that our O-Line is going to have some trouble protecting Romo this year. I hope I’m wrong, but the injuries have me worried.
Romo got stats. I'm good with that. The next step IMHO, is to make THEE plays, when he must, to win playoff games.
To me, that’s the ‘next level’ he must achieve to be truly great. I think he can, and he’ll prove it this year. Y.A. Tittle was great, but Joe Montana was truly great.
Family, Friends, Cowboys, Beer & BBQ. Life is good!
you really want to open that can o' worms?
The simple answer is two-fold:
1. Romo already has solid stats in “big” games.
2. It’s a team effort, so Romo being able to make THEE plays might have something to do with blocking, catching, defense, etc.
Original Pet-Cats: Duane Thomas, Roger Staubach, Walt Garrison, Charlie Waters, Bob Lilly
Confucius say, "Only teams win big games."
Oh, and DalaiLuke.
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem.
You're right of course. I really don't hold Romo responsible for any of our playoff losses. History only
pays attention to wins. History assumes the better team and players won. Heck, Parcells will probably ride Norwood’s missed kick into the PFHOF. We know the Cowboys should have beaten Seatlle in Jan. 2007. History holds no such opnion. Let history be hard on someone else. Win the darn game.
Family, Friends, Cowboys, Beer & BBQ. Life is good!
History doesn't assume it
but those who write it. And it’s a sports media narrative that others walk around repeating as if provided on the third tablet of stone (the one Mel Brooks dropped). I’m OK wuth judging teams by wins, although I’ll differ. For example, the Vikes were better than NO last season, and likely better than Indy, but mistaked their way to a loss. PLay that game 10 times and they win probably 6 or 7. But discussing one person on a 53-man roster is different than the team.
FREE THE OGLETREE!!!
By the way, we had a SD fan (my wife's cousin) as a house guest last weekend. He slept in the my den
surrounded by all my Cowboy stuff, and then had to watch as we scored that game wining safety to beat SD. Just beautiful. My Cowboy helmet smells funny now. WTF
Family, Friends, Cowboys, Beer & BBQ. Life is good!
Time to go visit him in San Diego.
If he has a room full of Charger memorabilia, you know what to do. This cannot go unpunished. Think of Isaac Holt blasting TO at the Star.
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem.
Wolf, you're not volunteering your highly trained reconnaisance team for the job?
Original Pet-Cats: Duane Thomas, Roger Staubach, Walt Garrison, Charlie Waters, Bob Lilly
Well, I sent them to the Orient, and the last I heard they had wandered off with the locals.
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem.
Implications for running game
are interesting. Part of the point of ANPY/A is that it doesn’t reward quarterbacks with a larger number of attempts to rack up more yards, even touchdowns—but not as many per attempt. This would, I would guess, be the case if a team just can’t run the ball—that game would see more attempts, but also more incompletions/ interceptions, and so a lower yards-running total might translate into a higher passing-yards total but NOT a higher ANPY/A.
It would be fun to test this statistically, but my gut feeling is that a good running game means you don’t have to dink out a few yards here and there by passing (and the attendant risk of incompletion/ interception). Short yardage is why God made running backs. Of course, Dallas currently is interesting in that our running plays (especially with Jones) seem almost as likely to break the long-yardage play as our receivers—and, unfortunately, our receivers seem more effective at making a 3rd-and-short than do our running backs. Am I off on this, or is this really true of the current Cowboys?
I don't think the evidence backs up your theory
Look at the teams at the top of ANPY/A.
San Diego? Terrible running game last year. #1 in ANPY/A.
Saints, Indy? Not really known for their running games.
On the flip side. Miami, good running team, not so good ANPY/A.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Aug 25, 2010 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Dallas currently is interesting in that our running plays (especially with Jones) seem almost as likely to break the long-yardage play as our receivers—and, unfortunately, our receivers seem more effective at making a 3rd-and-short than do our running backs. Am I off on this, or is this really true of the current Cowboys?
You’re off.
OCC’s EPV analysis covered this. Dallas passing game wasn’t great on 3rd down. However, the WR (especially Austin) are much more likely to break off big plays than RB.
Felix’s EPA was 0.06 (compared to an EPA of 0.66 for Austin). That’s not a knock on Felix. In general, RB’s are almost indistinguishable from an EPA perspective except for a few home-run hitter exceptions (Chris Johnson, AP)
http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2010/3/19/1333812/inside-the-numbers-the-2009
http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2010/3/24/1383283/inside-the-numbers-the-2009
http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2010/3/21/1378988/inside-the-numbers-the-2009
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Aug 25, 2010 8:09 PM CDT reply actions
Question about ANPY/A
First, this is just another phenomenal post. I love your work. It’s like manna…
Wouldn’t the best way to put these ANPY/A into historical context is just to do an ANPY/A above league average? That would then account for modern QB’s playing in more pass friendly environments.
I’d love to see the same thing with Running Backs…something that gives a bonus for TD’s and a minus for fumbles. Maybe the stat exists, but I don’t have time to do the research. It’s a much smarter way of looking at stats, though.
Answer...
Profootballreference.com has basically done that with their “advanced passing tables.” They index the player’s passing stats to the league average that season, set at 100, so you can compare their performance to what was average at the time. Based on these numbers you can see that in most respects Roger Staubach was a more dominant passer for his era than Peyton Manning is now, for instance.
As a side note, profootballreference.com calls the stat ANYA instead of ANPY/A, which I think is slightly less cumbersome (thought not by much).
Welcome to the blog, Sean
Indeed the advanced passing tables that you’ll see for each QB (see Romo here) index some key stats against the league average – with 100 being the average value for that season.
The only downside of these tables is you have to look up each QB separately to get at the numbers. On ANY/A (or ANPY/A) Romo indexed at 120 last season, Brees led the league (as far as I can tell) with an index of 130.
by One.Cool.Customer on Aug 26, 2010 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions

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