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Can A High Draft Pick Be An Immediate Upgrade For Cowboys O-line?

My name is Doug Free, I exercise using live weights.

Many mock drafters and many fans have the Cowboys taking at least one offensive lineman in the first two rounds of the 2011 draft. The assumption there being that a first or second round talent will provide an immediate upgrade over what the Cowboys currently have, especially on the right side of the line.

Conventional wisdom holds that when you draft a lineman in the first two rounds, you've drafted a guy who should be an immediate starter. But just how hard is it for a rookie lineman to start in the NFL?

Especially for the later round picks, you expect them to get beat up in practice and on the field in their first year or two as they adjust to the challenges of the NFL game. Hopefully, in about year three, they should be ready to go. Not so for first and second rounders. The expectation is that they'll perform immediately.

After the break, we look at whether expecting first and second round linemen to start immediately is a realistic expectation, and what level of performance you can reasonably expect.

Star-divide

Let's look at rookie linemen from a veteran perspective. In this case, I'd like to present expert testimony by one Dwight Freeney. Mr. Freeney is currently in the employ of the Indianapolis Colts, is a 6-time Pro Bowler & 3-time First-Team All-Pro, has recorded 94 regular season and 9 postseason sacks over a 9-year career, and is one of the nation's foremost experts on offensive linemen. This is his testimony:

"I'm licking my chops. When you have a rookie offensive tackle, I can't wait. Because for an offensive tackle, you're not good until you're in like your eighth year. You've got to get beat up for a while to learn what to do and what not to. It's when you're about in your fifth through 10th years as an offensive tackle that you're in your prime."

"All these rookies coming out?  They don’t know anything," Freeney said.  "I can’t wait."

No further questions Mr. Freeney. So there you have it. Rookie offensive lineman are going to get schooled - and the guy who's going to pay the bill is usually your star quarterback.

Rookie linemen (and fullbacks) whiff on blocks, miss assignments and get penalized. Veterans are no different of course, but they usually commit fewer errors over the years. Veteran pass rushers like Dwight Freeney love rookies because they haven't seen all the stuff an NFL defense can throw at them, and don't have all the techniques that could help in avoiding getting called for penalties and losing the battle at the point of attack.

Traditionally, teams preferred to introduce rookie offensive linemen into the NFL at a slower pace. But according to former Cowboys scout and NFL.com analyst Gil Brandt, the timetable is accelerating:

 "It starts at the high school and college level," says Brandt. "Everybody is throwing the ball more, so offensive linemen are spending more time in games and practices pass blocking. Offensive linemen are more prepared to handle passing situations and they have improved their pass protection techniques before they enter the NFL."

The Cowboys need help on the line. Obviously, not every lineman is going to turn out to be Jake Long, but if the Cowboys draft a lineman or two in the first two rounds, what are the chances they'll be a starter? And what are the chances they'll have an immediate (positive) impact?

To answer that question, I've looked at 32 offensive lineman drafted in the first two rounds of the draft in the last three years. A little further down the post you'll find a full overview of these linemen, the number of games started by year, and how they were graded by Profootballfocus.com (PFF). Here's what the numbers say:

When you draft a lineman in the first two rounds, you are drafting an immediate starter.

Of the 32 linemen in this analysis, 24 (75%) started the majority of games for their teams in their rookie season. That is a pretty high number. Five other players (denoted with a *) suffered either serious or season ending injuries in their first year. That leaves only three players (11%) of 27 linemen who did not start the majority of games in their rookie season. Charles Brown played only nine offensive snaps in 2010, Vladimir Ducasse only saw meaningful action in the last game of the 2010 season. In all fairness though, both were widely viewed as 'project' players heading into the draft. Chilo Rachal worked his way into the 49ers starting lineup midway through his rookie season and ended up starting the last 6 games of his 2008 rookie season.

So barring injury, over the last three years teams had a 90% chance of getting a starter if they drafted offensive linemen in the first two rounds. Dear Cowboys, there's no reason to be scared of drafting linemen high.

For the most part, rookie linemen are going to struggle.

Using the PFF grades (see detailed explanation here) as a way to measure the performance of linemen, it is clear that Dwight Freeney is right: most rookie lineman struggle mightily. Despite their high draft pick status, only seven of 32 (22%) linemen delivered an above average performance (marked in green in the table below) in their rookie season. If you include the five players who had an average first year (marked yellow) that number increases to 38%, which still leaves 62% of the linemen with a below average performance in their rookie season. 

Offensive linemen are not plug-and-play solutions to your O-line troubles. How much of an upgrade they turn out to be depends largely on how bad the player was that they are replacing. The challenge may not be quite as big with the Cowboys as it may be with some other teams.

Year Rnd Pick Player Pos Team Games Started PFF Grade
            2008 2009 2010   2008 2009 2010
2010 1 4 Trent Williams T WAS     13       -22.6
2010 1 6 Russell Okung T SEA     10       -2.6
2010 1 11 Anthony Davis T SFO     16       -26.6
2010 1 17 Mike Iupati G SFO     16       9.6
2010 1 18 Maurkice Pouncey C PIT     16       -4.2
2010 1 23 Bryan Bulaga T GNB     12       -24.6
2010 2 33 Rodger Saffold T STL     16       -12.4
2010 2 45 Zane Beadles G DEN     14       6.3
2010 2 61 Vladimir Ducasse T NYJ     0        - -
2010 2 64 Charles Brown T NOR     0        - -
                         
2009 1 2 Jason Smith* T STL   5 15     0.2 -16.7
2009 1 6 Andre Smith* T CIN   1 4     - -
-18.0
2009 1 8 Eugene Monroe T JAX   13 15     -4.5 -15.1
2009 1 21 Alex Mack C CLE   16 16     19.6 8.1
2009 1 23 Michael Oher T BAL   16 16     9.8 -10.8
2009 1 28 Eric Wood C/G BUF   10 14     -4.8 -7.5
2009 2 39 Eben Britton T JAX   15 7     -5.9 -2.2
2009 2 49 Max Unger C/G SEA   16 1     0.3  - -
2009 2 51 Andy Levitre G BUF   16 16     -10.6 -3.5
2009 2 54 Phil Loadholt T MIN   15 16     -1.2 -22.7
2009 2 58 Sebastian Vollmer T NWE   8 16     21.4 2.3
2009 2 60 Will Beatty* T NYG   4 2        
                         
2008 1 1 Jake Long T MIA 16 16 16   20.1 28.7 24.3
2008 1 12 Ryan Clady T DEN 16 16 16   -0.3 10.7 13.8
2008 1 14 Chris Williams* T/G CHI 0 16 13     11.7 -12.5
2008 1 15 Branden Albert G/T KAN 15 14 15   -0.6 -11.5 -8.4
2008 1 17 Gosder Cherilus T DET 13 15 12   -14.2 1.4 -1.5
2008 1 19 Jeff Otah T CAR 12 13 0   7.3 0.3  - -
2008 1 21 Sam Baker* T ATL 5 14 16   -3.2 -6.5 -27.2
2008 1 26 Duane Brown T HOU 16 16 12   -22.9 -8.6 3.7
2008 2 39 Chilo Rachal G SFO 6 15 14   -0.1 5.7 13.6
2008 2 59 Mike Pollak T/G IND 13 7 13   -15.1 -8.2 -4.4

The alternative to drafting high of course is to draft lower and then give your player time to develop. Fourth round pick Doug Free is a perfect example of this. Free did not see significant playing time until midway through his third season in 2009. For Free's seven starts in 2009, PFF awarded him a +5.9 grade, making him the 15th best right tackle despite his limited playing time. In 2010 Free graded out as the best run-blocking tackle in the league, and his overall grade of +17.9 ranks him as the third best left tackle in the NFL behind only Andrew Whitworth and Jake Long. But for every Doug Free there are dozens of other rookies each year who don't make it.

In Phil Costa, Sam Young and Jermey Parnell the Cowboys have three rookie linemen on the roster, Travis Bright and Robert Brewster are second year players. Can any of them follow the Doug Free 2.5 year model? The chances of that happening are slim.

To get an impact player on the O-line, the Cowboys will have to go high in the draft - or go the free agent route.

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A lot of the players who had success as rookies

seem to be interior players, with them achieving 50% acceptable ratings, while tackles mostly were bad seemingly 90% of the time

by AustonianAggie on Jan 12, 2011 2:40 PM CST reply actions  

tackle is a harder position

as a rookie can get more help inside.

In Romo we Trust

by Terry on Jan 12, 2011 2:43 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree with Freeney

that OL, like QBs hit their prime later on in their careers as opposed to other positions like RB or LB. That being said, it wouldn’t take much to be an upgrade over either Davis or Colombo as both of those guys were simply terrible this past season and certainly won’t be anything but worse in 2011.

So a second rounder will have a lot to learn regarding OL play at the NFL level, but they will certainly be better than what we’ve seen from Davis and Colombo lately, no question in my mind.

In Romo we Trust

by Terry on Jan 12, 2011 2:42 PM CST reply actions  

Pure gold, OCC..

Just speculation, haven’t looked at the PFF grades yet, but I think a rookie G or T would be an upgrade over either Bigg or Columbo.

I do like the Free way of developing OL, however, it’s really hit or miss… and since we’ve missed these past several years, I think we’re just gonna have to throw one to the wolves and hope that he learns quick.

Buuut, I think with a free agent signing to complement the rookie, it should be THAT bad..

Should it?

FEAR the STAR...it's all or nothing.... time to COWBOY UP.

by .FRoST.USAF on Jan 12, 2011 2:45 PM CST reply actions  

Interesting that PFF thinks 7 of the 9 guys drafted in 2009 actually got worse in their 2nd year.

by JimmyK on Jan 12, 2011 2:50 PM CST reply actions  

I’m still trying to decide how much stock to put into these numbers.

by Jordan Sams on Jan 12, 2011 3:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Mock

If it ain’t the real draft, it deserves the word.

You want to bank on 22% or 38%, I’ll gladly take the rest. Let’s keep it simple, average it out to 30%.

Ok, fork over 70% of the cash in your pocket, value in your possessions and whatever you deem of worth in life.

Wagering against percentages, long term, is a guaranteed losing formula. Remember, figure the stats before saying it ain’t so.

Care to go again? Lose 70% of your remaining 30%? I’m game. Willing to keep it up till it sinks in or you’re flat-busted.

This is an FA-focus priority, not high-draft pick, not this year. Mid to low, at best.

Pride, Avarice, Lust, Envy, Gluttony, Wrath, Sloth.
5 outta 7 ain't bad. Working on the other 2.

by tanstaafl on Jan 12, 2011 3:12 PM CST reply actions  

You put the case in excellent perspective

Bet against the house which has a 70% chance of winning (your draft choice does NOT pan out) or go FA or trade? Yeah, I’m converted. We need 2 or 3 FA’s and/or trades and a lower round project (well schooled in college and something between the ears). 2 or 3 because we need 2 T’s, one for a starter and one for swing. Unless we trust Romo’s health to someone we’ve been building.

OCC, once again your tables are out of the world and make the situation very clear! In 3 years of history, there’s only one Jake Long. What an awesome draft Miami made with him!

When in doubt, empty your magazine

by MudMarine on Jan 12, 2011 5:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Oh F, don't side with me, I'm the always wr-wro...-you know, guy

Pride, Avarice, Lust, Envy, Gluttony, Wrath, Sloth.
5 outta 7 ain't bad. Working on the other 2.

by tanstaafl on Jan 12, 2011 6:42 PM CST up reply actions  

But, but -- you're right

Ha, got you on the ropes now ;-)

When in doubt, empty your magazine

by MudMarine on Jan 12, 2011 7:01 PM CST up reply actions  

One down...

6+ billion to go.
Yes, I am. Social pariahdom be damned. Read email.
Gotcha. Thank you kindly, MM.

Pride, Avarice, Lust, Envy, Gluttony, Wrath, Sloth.
5 outta 7 ain't bad. Working on the other 2.

by tanstaafl on Jan 12, 2011 7:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Please clarify

I am not following the 30% point. As OCC stated

So barring injury, over the last three years teams had a 90% chance of getting a starter if they drafted offensive linemen in the first two rounds. Dear Cowboys, there’s no reason to be scared of drafting linemen high.

Yes, rookies will always have a rough first year, no matter the positions. Also, tackles allow sacks more often than interior linemen, and thus another reason for the difference between the two grades. But without seeing how the other starting linemen grade compared to these
rookies, how can you claim it is a 30% hit ratio? Some of their numbers may be better than other non-rookie starters.

Almost every rookie has a tough introduction to the NFL. But let’s also consider the future and the ceiling of each player. You may want to slowly rebuild our OLIne with FA pickups and low round projects. I would claim the ceiling and future of a 1st or 2nd round pick will be better than the low round project and likely most of the average players found as FA. Personally, I am a believer in the first part of OCC’s statement

To get an impact player on the O-line, the Cowboys will have to go high in the draft – or go the free agent route.

"Football is an incredible game. Sometimes it's so incredible, it's unbelievable."
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry

by Kegbearer on Jan 13, 2011 9:13 AM CST up reply actions  

30%'s merely...

the number averaged out from the 22% and 38%, as I’m sure you noticed. I’m not claiming it as being accurate, any more than I’d claim the base stats it’s superficially derived from are. It’s irrelevant whether it’s 30%, 13% or 49% with respect to the point I’m making in using it. That point is the percentages are against a significantly above-average impact being realized by expending a high-round (1st, 2nd, possibly even 3rd) pick to address the Cowboys’ OL challenges this year. Even if they were marginally more than, as in 51%-55% percent or the like the risk wouldn’t outweigh the significance of an associated statisical error margin. We’ve OL players in-house that represent the risk as it is, so to increase the number is unwarranted. More advantageous to obtain NFL-experienced OL players, as again the percentages bear out as being above-average. We’ve a decent roster with enough holes to fill in achieving the balance most often evidenced in high-percentage playoff and SB success without compounding the associated risks by taking this course of action. Minimization of risk in the intital stages of implementing a long-term strategy in order to present tangible evidence in the short-term that the overall plan has merit and should be continued with is a fundamental concept in planning, whether it be business, military, sports or what-have-you. And please don’t present retirement-planning strategies in which higher risk at earlier stages is more acceptable than later, as that’s an entirely different situation and one devoted to realizing the goal at an end-point date far in the future. By then, this roster will themselves be retired. I want these guys, many of them, to have the most probable chance at that ring, playing with the Cowboys, in the next 1-3 years. Along with that, for this franchise to return to a long-term perspective, to have the luxury of doing so and to build themselves into having that luxury. They don’t have it now and to get it they’re going to have to work for it, work towards it. Risk is a luxury we haven’t much latitude in, can ill afford and should be seeking to minimize, at present.

Look, KB, it’s a complex issue, one I didn’t intend writing another long dull comment about. Sure, the Cowboys could pick high OL, have it work out, even go all the way. Not saying it’s not possible. Not saying the common view that this is not a high-quality draft year for OL players overall is right or wrong. Not claiming the 30% is accurate. Not claiming I’m right in any of this. I just see it differently than you and many others. And it wouldn’t surprise me if there was a high-round OL pick. There are guys I’d like to have onboard. I was in the OL-first camp, still am to some extent, not first but in a balanced manner with our D requirements. Balanced with respect to our requirements, draft/FA/trade strategies, the works. OLine high-round draft pick just isn’t what I’d advise right now as a best-course-of-action without more conclusive evidence that was the definite way to go.

I know this isn’t the kind of football-related response you were looking for, not one talking player names and the like. My apologies on that. And my BS length, to boot.

Pride, Avarice, Lust, Envy, Gluttony, Wrath, Sloth.
5 outta 7 ain't bad. Working on the other 2.

by tanstaafl on Jan 13, 2011 1:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Long, but pretty good

I’m definitely waiting and watching to see how Garrett leans. Draft Day! I think what we do will definitely be a tell as to what we’re probably going to do in FA.

When in doubt, empty your magazine

by MudMarine on Jan 13, 2011 3:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Fair Enough

And I certainly don’t mind you bringing in real world metaphores to explain your views on NFL franchise building.
I guess I was just wondering if you think the % of having some other position rookie succeeding is better than the % of a 1st round OLinemen succeeding? I feel like there are often just as many bust FA signings (look at Barron) as rookie growing pains – and just as many rookie growing pains in other positions as O-Linemen.

So considering how old our OLine is, versus the potential already present on the DLine, the risk of passing up a talented player sure to go through growing pains but also to take over for an aging veteran is smaller in my mind, than the risk of drafting a DLinemen that may prove on slightly better or worse than what is already available (to resign) on our roster…not to mention an extra draft pick if we trade down and draft a OLinemen in 15-20 rnage.

"Football is an incredible game. Sometimes it's so incredible, it's unbelievable."
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry

by Kegbearer on Jan 13, 2011 3:35 PM CST up reply actions  

I think the whole thing depends on JG's plan

And I believe completely that he has one.

He could draft, sign FA’s, and keep players we think should be drop kicked – mix the set any way, omitting any you want. But, we do need immediate help, of that we’re all agreed.

There’s even a small contingent that has considered keeping Colombo, myabe as a starter still, maybe as swing. Also keeping BIGG, but finding what it is that motivates him to play his BIGG@ss off. He, I feel, can still play which may be why he pisses me off the most. I feel as though he’s just dogging it, taking plays off, ala Randy Moss.

There’s also the strong contingent that wants a DL draft 1st, and there’s the S draft or FA group.

One thing for certain, this community has intelligence and devotion to the Cowboys. We all want a return to former glory as an NFL premier franchise. We just all see it differently, and, at least in my case, change tactics I like the best as the best way to fix our problems.

But I do want to go on record as saying everyone here was against even taking Barron. Everyone saw his record, he sucks. So I can’t classify him as a FA acquisition, just another Jerry brain-fart. And man, have we had enough of those!

When in doubt, empty your magazine

by MudMarine on Jan 13, 2011 3:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Coach has a plan.

Not carved in stone, not so easily defeated. One allowing for change, options, the works. But I’ll stake cash on the barrelhead he’s got his plan.

Pride, Avarice, Lust, Envy, Gluttony, Wrath, Sloth.
5 outta 7 ain't bad. Working on the other 2.

by tanstaafl on Jan 13, 2011 4:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Absolutely 100% agree...

That there are risks associated with other positions and methods of obtaining players. No doubt about it. And that the “rookie risk” is always there. Period. There ain’t no such thing as a sure thing. Cr!pes, did I just say that.

I see and understand your perspective on the OL/DL risk being kind of the reverse of mine. And not really so, in that I grasp the potential “minimal gain” point you’re making with regard to the DL. It’s definitely there and valid. Along with both the opportunity to snag a quality OL player and/or draft advatages from trading down, etc. It’s a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don’t crap-shoot 50% of the time, if you get my point there.

I’m looking to the OL, DL, ILB, FS/SS being priorites, see the D’s center-line down-the-field quality/depth needing to be addressed, shore up that OL right-side, all the things so many of you see. Just not as committed to the specifics as many of you are. I want futher evidence, investigation, views, analysis. More definitive state as to the players available, to the CBA, more cap info. More, more, more. I’m selfishly greedily eating it up and still wanting more. I guess I can knock gluttony off my sig now too and make it 6 out of 7.

These are the reasons I look forward to what OCC’s doing with these positional stat posts, the things all you guys bring out about players, draft/FA/trade strategies, the diversity of opinions, the works. To have some data to figure the risks for my own view, to see what the numbers indicate and combine that with the subjective eyeball test we all do, that sort of thing. It’s all very nebulous to me, the draft-related stuff, and I don’t get too heavily invested in it. No matter what I think, it matters a tinker’s damn. Come draft day, come FA, what gets done is out of my hands, I’ll be wrong and maybe right in some good way hopefully and I’ve no authority, ability to sway the decision-maker’s views or any of it. So I just try to enjoy it, see the good and bad and let the big-heads, you guys and others, take care of giving me a Cowboys team.

We draft a Castonzo/Fairley/Wisniewski/Miller/Sherrod/Smith/Paea/Carimi/Bowers/Mohamed, we FA pick up one of the names you, me and others have put forward, trade, do whatever, I’m onboard with it, will look at it and try to see how it fits and hope for the best. I think you get my point and I’m not trying to dodge the issue. I’m just so hopelessly overwhelmed by the whole thing.

Pride, Avarice, Lust, Envy, Gluttony, Wrath, Sloth.
5 outta 7 ain't bad. Working on the other 2.

by tanstaafl on Jan 13, 2011 4:45 PM CST up reply actions  

And to answer at least one of your questions
I guess I was just wondering if you think the % of having some other position rookie succeeding is better than the % of a 1st round OLinemen succeeding?

Ask me that after I see all the posts OCC’s doing like this.

But just an off-the-top-of-head, eyeballed, idiot’s take (mine), probably, yes. If only using Freely’s opinion on OL rookies, the fact these OCC-provided posts and numbers have many more to go and the more-noticeable impact the “glory” positions, QB/RB/WR have on our perceptions as flawed evidence.

btw, I like my crow raw, bloodied and beat-up tender just like I feel when eating it. ;)

Pride, Avarice, Lust, Envy, Gluttony, Wrath, Sloth.
5 outta 7 ain't bad. Working on the other 2.

by tanstaafl on Jan 13, 2011 4:58 PM CST up reply actions  

F me, Freeney, not Freely

Pride, Avarice, Lust, Envy, Gluttony, Wrath, Sloth.
5 outta 7 ain't bad. Working on the other 2.

by tanstaafl on Jan 13, 2011 4:59 PM CST up reply actions  

Regardless...

It’s virtually 100% probability there will be some form of FA in any new CBA. All NFL teams will be in the same position with reggard to it as the Cowboys will be. All will be faced with the similar challenges with respect to their requirements, the draft, trading, the works. Moot point.

Pride, Avarice, Lust, Envy, Gluttony, Wrath, Sloth.
5 outta 7 ain't bad. Working on the other 2.

by tanstaafl on Jan 13, 2011 1:55 PM CST up reply actions  

But we know JG is detail oriented

and undoubtedly has a plan. Man I wish we could see it! If he has trades and/or FA’s lined up, we can jump fast and get them in camp. Once the CBA is ratified, of course.

When in doubt, empty your magazine

by MudMarine on Jan 13, 2011 3:35 PM CST up reply actions  

We will see it...

at least whatever it might come to be in the real world. Only after the fact. And not a moment before. Hopefully a plan that’ll Normandy our assault on the as-yet impregnable title-shot these past many years have been. And not one that means we’ve been impregnated like our past sl#ttish behavior’s gotten us.

Pride, Avarice, Lust, Envy, Gluttony, Wrath, Sloth.
5 outta 7 ain't bad. Working on the other 2.

by tanstaafl on Jan 13, 2011 5:08 PM CST up reply actions  

I like that Normandy metaphor

And the impregnated sluttish behavior, gross, but right on the head.

I posted on Chandus’ 3-4 DE with number 9 Why about the sudden falloff of our DE’s. It has to do with lack of, well, just about everything that would improve already decent, not necessarily good DE’s.

The essence is Wade’s lack of speed & contact drills leading to everything. Which could very well be characterized as sluttish behavior. So, I’m now not as enthusiastic about finding the magic bullet draft pick which will cure our ills. We may have our starting D already on the roster and look to bolster our depth with quality players, who with the ‘right’ coaching can be led quickly to be plug-in-and-keep-on trucking players.

Of course, I still think Brooking is over the hill as a starter and Ball is trash. But we have or may have their replacements already here. Ahmed Black might be a great pick, but we’ve already got AOA.

When in doubt, empty your magazine

by MudMarine on Jan 14, 2011 10:35 AM CST up reply actions  

Different standards

Why is it when it comes time for the draft all of a sudden we have this high standard for why we can’t pick OL early because they’re not immediate starters and so many lame excuses but for other positions we don’t have the same? Did Spencer,Jones,Bryant start immediately how about Lee,Bennett and Carpenter did they start immediately so let’s please stop with these absurd excuses why we can’t spend either a first round or second high pick on a OL. Unless you’re happy with how the OL has played this year.These arguments no longer make any sense.

by cryinsilverblustars4eva on Jan 12, 2011 3:20 PM CST reply actions  

thank God we have the left tackle at least

draft a RT release Bigg plug in Holland at RG find a G to groom for 2012 at LG. this would get rid of the weakest part of the line, while working on the other side. hope next year a C is available then BOOM new o-line.

by yehti on Jan 12, 2011 3:46 PM CST reply actions  

Pouncey is the poster child for what I tried to say.

I’m sure he’ll develop to be one of the best centers in the league, and boy do I wish he was on our team. But here’s how PFF sees him:

With a -4.2 Grade, Pounces is ranked 21st among 34 centers in the league. For a rookie, that’s not too bad, and he did a lot of things well.

But some of his stats clearly show that “Rookie offensive lineman are going to get schooled – and the guy who’s going to pay the bill is usually your star quarterback”: Only one center allowed more sacks than Pouncey. Only four centers allowed more QB hits and only four allowed more QB pressures. PFF grade Pouncey as an above average run blocker, but he’s still got to a way to go in pass protection.

by One.Cool.Customer on Jan 12, 2011 5:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Hmm...

Every time I see a report on him, it’s either he’s underrated or overrated. No one seems to have the same opinion on him. Many feel he’ll excel at the Combine and he’ll shoot up the boards, but do we really want another athlete who can’t make it in the NFL because they don’t have it between the ears?

by calmyron on Jan 12, 2011 4:26 PM CST up reply actions  

The question on Smith is his size

the wildly different ratings have nothing to do with whats between the the ears, the kid can play (multiple draft sources say he has the best tape of any OT in the draft). But with him weighing in at a light 280 this past season, the question is will he be sufficiently big and strong enough to play tackle in the NFL. I think he can, even if it may take him a year or two (he is only 20 after all). If he shows up to the combine 300+ and its good weight, then I wouldn’t be shocked if he went high and I would definitely give him consideration at #9. If he shows up and he is still around that 280 range though he probably won’t go until the late 1st or even sometime in the 2nd. If we got him in round 2 it would be an absolute steal and I would be elated.

by Spaceball on Jan 12, 2011 6:47 PM CST up reply actions  

No

but if he’s avail at 40 (ala Bruce Campbell)? yes.

Ich bin ein Berliner--JFK

by HudBaby on Jan 12, 2011 6:01 PM CST up reply actions  

No way

and we have FREE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sean Lissemore = The next Bruce Smith

by Lissyyyyy on Jan 12, 2011 6:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Our line was just sad for a majority of this year

I’m very proud of Doug Free. Left Tackle is among the most important positions on the team and Free managed to fill in that spot beautifully. Our cowboy development projects have been feast or famine…. We either get Romo, Austin, Free, Ratliff….. or Alan Ball.

by DonMoosavi on Jan 12, 2011 4:27 PM CST reply actions  

Ugh...

I’m really hoping I don’t have to hear Alan Ball’s name for much longer… He is the reason I drank myself stupid on game days…

by Static on Jan 12, 2011 4:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Haha

he wasn’t the only one who drove me to drank on game days i would include a couple more names to his.

by cryinsilverblustars4eva on Jan 12, 2011 5:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Has yours worn off yet?

Seems mine hasn’t. Starting to scare me.

Pride, Avarice, Lust, Envy, Gluttony, Wrath, Sloth.
5 outta 7 ain't bad. Working on the other 2.

by tanstaafl on Jan 12, 2011 7:00 PM CST up reply actions  

I feel the same way

I just don’t understand why a lot people keep wanting to move him back to RT i rather keep him at LT and see if we can draft a RT this year.

by cryinsilverblustars4eva on Jan 12, 2011 5:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Sanity

Pride, Avarice, Lust, Envy, Gluttony, Wrath, Sloth.
5 outta 7 ain't bad. Working on the other 2.

by tanstaafl on Jan 12, 2011 7:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Agreed,

He grades out as one of the top LT’s in the game and will command LT money to sign him, why move him.

by Rena on Jan 13, 2011 11:34 AM CST up reply actions  

LT/RT, whatever...

Free better be a 2011 Cowboy. Or we got yet another problem. A huge one.
Best kept at LT, but if not whatever’s done is going to be under one helluva lot of scrutiny.

Pride, Avarice, Lust, Envy, Gluttony, Wrath, Sloth.
5 outta 7 ain't bad. Working on the other 2.

by tanstaafl on Jan 13, 2011 2:00 PM CST up reply actions  

I think aside from RB and possibly a few other positions, most positions are in their prime later in their career as they learned the position more, until their body falls apart and then they get worse. I think RB’s different because they fall apart so much faster.

by Ben24626 on Jan 12, 2011 5:46 PM CST reply actions  

Probably linemen last longer because Freeney only gets a 6 inch run before hitting the tackle.

The big problem with playing on the line is your legs.

If I should die before I wake,
feed Jake.

by GunsUp on Jan 13, 2011 7:20 AM CST up reply actions  

May I suggest a threefold approach?

I’m all for using our 2nd round pick for OL. There will be no problem getting an LT that we can flip over tot the right side. This will not fix our problems, as the stats prove.

Sign a proven guy (or two) in their mid-to-late 20s that has learned those lessons on someone else’s team. This will be expensive. I don’t care b/c Jerry is a billionaire.

Develop our young ‘uns. I’m scared we will let one of our young guys go and they turn out to be good. This will take time, strength and conditioning, AND good coaching.

A threefold approach will fill the proverbial coffers for the foreseeable future so we can have a high rushing YPA and give Romo the time to be his awesome self.

Ultimately, we cannot negate OL in the draft any longer.

Ich bin ein Berliner--JFK

by HudBaby on Jan 12, 2011 6:00 PM CST reply actions  

one thing I think we need to take into effect

is we have our starting LT, obviously the harder position to play
we need to fill RG and RT
I would be more than ok with starting a rookie at RG or RT

by Archie Barberio on Jan 12, 2011 6:17 PM CST reply actions  

RG maybe, RT, I wouldn't

If it were a rebuilding team taking its lumps with a new QB and a new OL and a bunch of youngsters, then, yeah it’d be okay to give up some more sacks, pressures, etc. But with Romo and co. already established and in place on the offense, we want to make them more effective—starting this coming year—not 2 or 3 years from now. A rookie tackle is asking for IR for your QB, EVEN IF his name is Vick. A rookie interior OL can be worked around.

My plan: draft OL 2nd round, if RT, then let them develop for a year or two behind a FA RT (Mankins?). If RG, then start them over Davis. Then draft the other that you didn’t draft in a later round as a developmental eventual starter. A later round RG might require a FA RG to be signed, but could possibly start immediately if they aren’t too bad. We might have to make do with a Holland at RG for a year or so until he can get up to speed.

Whatever route is taken, it is a long and tricky route made worse because so many of our recent OL prospects (and even some FA signings—Barron and that GB guard we got a few years ago whose back went out) have been busts.

by mdlusk on Jan 13, 2011 1:06 AM CST up reply actions  

Me too.

I think we have our next acronym. In this case farts are good.

If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem.

by White Wolf on Jan 13, 2011 5:42 AM CST up reply actions  

Precisely
long and tricky route made worse because so many of our recent OL prospects

Pride, Avarice, Lust, Envy, Gluttony, Wrath, Sloth.
5 outta 7 ain't bad. Working on the other 2.

by tanstaafl on Jan 13, 2011 2:04 PM CST up reply actions  

As like in the past there wont be a OL picked in the first round...

not saying a OL wouldnt immediatley help this team, but there wont be a lineman worthy of the 9th pick in this draft. Too bad we weren’t picking 9th last year when the OL crop was alot better. Look for DT, OLB or safety with the 9th pick and maybe a OL with the 2nd or 3rd round pick.

by Boyzfan94 on Jan 12, 2011 6:32 PM CST reply actions  

That's what is most frustrating. This is the first year in a long time we have been in range to get a blue chip OL but none are there to be had.

I wish we had gotten one or two in the Campo era. I could have done without the Roy Williams Thong saga, if I had to choose one to not get instead. Terrance Newman has been worth it, though, IMO.

As for the actual 9th pick, my order of targets is: Fairley, Amukamara/Peterson (tied), then Cameron Jordan. If none of those is available, it might be time to trade down.

by mdlusk on Jan 13, 2011 1:10 AM CST up reply actions  

Yep, when we need 'em, it's apparently not the year

To get the luxury of being in a somewhat more balanced state with respect to what the draft looks like year-to-year is going to take a lot of work on the part of this franchise. We’ve squandered the Schramm/Landry/Brandt legacy, plus what we might’ve had from the early years of the current franchise admin.

Pride, Avarice, Lust, Envy, Gluttony, Wrath, Sloth.
5 outta 7 ain't bad. Working on the other 2.

by tanstaafl on Jan 13, 2011 2:11 PM CST up reply actions  

O Line

Dallas is not in desperate need of replacing Columbo or Davis…not yet at least.

Sorry, but there is not 1 college player I see coming out right now who is better THIS season than what we have…

Plus, we can not forget that these guys have salaries and cap hits…letting go of them is not that easy.

Dallas needs to address their secondary first…depending on Champ Bailey or Nnmandi possibly coming to town, Dallas should go secondary with that pick.

by JeffHart24 on Jan 12, 2011 6:42 PM CST reply actions  

It doesnt take much to be better than Colombo was this season

Yes, we need a new RT at the very least and probably a new RG as well. Not to mention Kosier and Free are hitting FA this year too. Thankfully there will be options in FA in addition to the 2nd and 3rd days of the draft.

by Spaceball on Jan 12, 2011 6:50 PM CST up reply actions  

I think Colombo is done

But, I’m willing to wait and see in camp. I feel we owe him that. Besides we don’t know what’s wrong with him – damn fool won’t tell the trainers when he’s hurt or hurting.

Davis may last if, and only if, Jason and the OL coach get dead in his ass. He’s got the skills, he just never seems motivated to work, never mind excel, just freaking work! So, yeah, FA a RG or take the chance in the draft (tanstaafl posted the odds of success in drafting a starting OL man above – 30% chance we hit a starter, less that we hit a good started).

When in doubt, empty your magazine

by MudMarine on Jan 12, 2011 7:10 PM CST up reply actions  

We need interior OL and RT

drafting either one would be a waste at 9

Sean Lissemore = The next Bruce Smith

by Lissyyyyy on Jan 12, 2011 6:47 PM CST reply actions  

agreed...

I already said both Colombo and Davis wont be gone. I can see one, but not both. My guess is Davis is gone with either Holland or a FA replacing him. Holland could also be in consideration for replacing Kosier also. People want massive change on the OL in one offseason, but thats just not financially possible or realistic…

by Boyzfan94 on Jan 12, 2011 6:50 PM CST reply actions  

The only OTs capable of starting as rookies for us are Sherrod and Carimi.

Everyone else is a bit of a project from what I’ve seen. I do think some of the guards in the 2nd are capable of competing for a job as well (remember we still have Holland who is serviceable and possibly Brewster as well – although I don’t have much hope for him). Cannon, Pouncey, Pinkston, Ijalana are all guys I would give a look if someone from the first doesn’t fall into our lap at 40.

by Spaceball on Jan 12, 2011 6:53 PM CST reply actions  

Sherrod and Carimi are late first round early second round picks...

Carimi is more of a guard I think. If he could be had in the 2nd I would consider it, but not 1st round….

by Boyzfan94 on Jan 12, 2011 6:59 PM CST reply actions  

I didnt say I would take them @ 9

but they are the only guys who are even capable of starting their rookie yr. And Carimi is definitely not a guard. Hes not a LT, but he will be a fine RT very early in his career imo.

by Spaceball on Jan 12, 2011 7:12 PM CST up reply actions  

According to you right?

Because from what i have had read both can be either mid teens early 20’s draft pick and they may go even higher after the combines.I’m not saying draft either at the ninth pick i’m saying trade down and pick up a extra second.

by cryinsilverblustars4eva on Jan 12, 2011 11:07 PM CST up reply actions  

reading some of the scout reports on him he is a guard at the NFL level....

Sounds like he is a player that has to start inside then when he improves his game can play outside

by Boyzfan94 on Jan 12, 2011 7:14 PM CST reply actions  

There's more than one way to play it.

Scenario 1 – Somebody is going to come calling for a QB while we’re on the clock. When they do, we have them over a barrel and can ask for greater value for our pick. We can get their first and second this year, or first this year and next year, move down 4-10 spots, and still get one of the top lineman in the draft.

Scenario 2 – Simply draft the best lineman in the draft, Nate Solder or Mike Sherrod, with pick No. 9. (This is my least favorite scenario, but I’ll understand if the Pokes pull the trigger here.)

Scenario 3 – Draft a top talent at No. 9. A top 5 talent will probably drop to 9 as other teams draft for need. Then we get the best Guard, probably Rodney Hudson, Mike Pouncey, Orlando Franklin, or an OT, whoever may drop into the second.

Although this may not be the best year for top O-line talent, I don’t think that’s going to stop 7-8 of them from being drafted in the first round.

We have to dump some dead-weight player salaries, and we still don’t know if we’ll have money under the cap to sign any FA’s. Lineman are so expensive in FA.

If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem.

by White Wolf on Jan 12, 2011 7:20 PM CST reply actions  

Just read the entire method to PFFs madness

And I feel a lot more comfortable with their numbers. People who say “stats don’t tell the whole story” regarding PFF must not fully understand what they do, cause they’re not stats, just a number assigned to various “eye-tests”.

by Jordan Sams on Jan 12, 2011 10:39 PM CST reply actions  

You did yourself a great favor

"....the Cowboy way...." (Head Coach, Jason Garrett)

by BishopWest on Jan 12, 2011 11:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Stats don’t tell the whole story

And I do understand what they do, PFF and stats in general. PFF’s numbers, while superior to any other “stat” source I’ve seen, are still subjective analysis quantifications, not remotely akin to numbers derived from the scientific method. Therefore, they do not “tell the whole story”.

Sorry, pet peeve.

Pride, Avarice, Lust, Envy, Gluttony, Wrath, Sloth.
5 outta 7 ain't bad. Working on the other 2.

by tanstaafl on Jan 13, 2011 2:17 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not "arguing" with your intent, Jordan or anyone else
Many people say that as soon as you start grading, you bring subjectivity into your work. Obviously, to some degree, that’s true.
Our "subjective" grading allows us to bring some intelligence to the raw numbers.

Both points PFF recognizes and admits to as much as I do. I respect their work, value, worth, honesty and accuracy more than virtually all other “stat” sources related to football.

Bolding in their quoted words is my doing, not theirs.

Pride, Avarice, Lust, Envy, Gluttony, Wrath, Sloth.
5 outta 7 ain't bad. Working on the other 2.

by tanstaafl on Jan 13, 2011 2:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Saffold only gave up 3.5 sacks at LT

How can you possibly give him a -12.5? Three freaking sacks all season! Left tackle!

I don’t believe PFF grades players well.

The Ohio State Buckeyes are your Sugar Bowl champions... and for the 7th year in a row Michigan still sucks.

by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 13, 2011 3:42 AM CST via mobile reply actions  

Let’s just see how they grade out our lineman, there may be hope for them yet.

But I’d certainly have to agree with you as far as a LT only giving up 3.5 sacks all year and being graded as one of the worst in the league; that said though I didn’t watch enough St. Louis games (lol?) to see if he was getting a lot of tight end and or running back help.

by G_SWAG on Jan 13, 2011 4:01 AM CST up reply actions  

Because more goes into the stat than just sacks.

How many QB hits? How many QB pressures? What about his run blocking?

"....the Cowboy way...." (Head Coach, Jason Garrett)

by BishopWest on Jan 13, 2011 7:27 AM CST up reply actions  

Too lazy to read all these, but...

While someone has probably said this above, the data here points to drafting the interior of the line (i.e. look at the numbers of Gs and Cs vs Ts) and then filling the RT position with a FA. The pokes can utilize the number nine pick on the best secondary help possible, grab one of the better interior lineman with their 2nd, and get help for RT through FA.

Additionally, if you get the right G, you should be projecting him to take Gurode’s spot in year three (i.e. two seasons from now). In the meantime the folks you do have can be strengthen and working as swing back ups with the plan of hopefully replacing the FA that you signed to replace Columbo this year.

This plan costs you one draft pick, one free agent, and significantly settles the line for the future. But…. it also means we get the right guy in the draft and some of the folks we currently have bouncing around on the roster actually pan out.

by NavyBoyBill on Jan 13, 2011 8:15 AM CST reply actions  

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