Dallas Cowboys Pass Rush Pt. II: Which Linebackers are Bringing The Pressure?
by One.Cool.Customer on Nov 25, 2011 2:30 PM CST
in Dallas Cowboys General
Email
PrintThere's a widely held belief that DeMarcus Ware is the Cowboys' one-man pass rush. And that line of thinking is not without merit. This year, Ware has 14 of the Cowboys' 30 sacks and he is easily the most dominant player on the Cowboys defense, and perhaps even in the league.
But as good as Ware is, he can't do it alone.
In part I of this post, we tried to look beyond sacks as the sole measure of pass rush efficiency, and introduced QB Disruption Points as a way to aggregate sacks, QB hits and QB pressures into one number that can be used as an indicator of how much pressure a defense exerts on the opposing quarterback.
Through ten games, the Cowboys tallied 134.8 QB Disruption Points, the 10th best value in the league. Over those ten games, Ware recorded 14 sacks, 5 QB hits and 29 pressures for 39.5 QB Disruption points, a little under a third of the Cowboys' total.
After the break, find out who else is bringing the pressure for the Cowboys' defense.
DeMarcus Ware Appreciation Moment
But before we look at the other players, let's have ourselves a little DeMarcus Ware moment. Ware's 39.5 QB Disruption points (QBDP) are the third highest value in the league for any player, behind only Miami's Cameron Wake (40.5) and the Rams' Chris Long (45.8). Some perspective on just how extraordinary these numbers are: there are only ten player in the league with QBDPs over 30.
Before we look at the top ten players in a little more detail, one more stat for your pass rushing consideration. QBDP, while doing a nice job of aggregating three pass rushing stats into one number, is a volume stat much like many of the standard stats being used in the NFL such as yards or receptions. To make any volume stat more meaningful, you need to turn it into an efficiency stat, e.g. yards per attempt or reception rate.
For the pass rushing equivalent, we once again turn to who have proposed a stat called Pass-Rushing Productivity, or PRP, which is simply the QB Disruptions Points divided by the number of snaps in which the player rushed the passer.
DeMarcus Ware has 39.5 QB Disruptions on 327 pass rushing snaps. 39.5 / 327 = 0.121 or 12.1%.
Below's a list of how DeMarcus compares to the top pass rushers in the league, each of whom has more than 30 QBDPs. The table is based on the data through week 11 and is sorted by Pass Rushing Productivity:
| Player | Team | Snaps | Pass Rush | QB Sk | QB Ht | QB Pr | QBDP | PRP '11 | PRP '10 |
| Cameron Wake | MIA | 542 | 300 | 6 | 12 | 34 | 40.5 | 13.5% | 12.2% |
| Chris Long | SL | 595 | 339 | 9 | 7 | 42 | 45.8 | 13.5% | 10.5% |
| Trent Cole | PHI | 382 | 227 | 5 | 7 | 27 | 30.5 | 13.4% | 11.8% |
| Jason Babin | PHI | 462 | 271 | 10 | 7 | 24 | 33.3 | 12.3% | 11.9% |
| DeMarcus Ware | DAL | 605 | 327 | 14 | 5 | 29 | 39.5 | 12.1% | 12.4% |
| Clay Matthews | GB | 646 | 348 | 5 | 15 | 29 | 38.0 | 10.9% | 11.4% |
| Chris Clemons | SEA | 580 | 354 | 9 | 6 | 33 | 38.3 | 10.8% | 11.7% |
| Andre Carter | NE | 559 | 334 | 10 | 13 | 20 | 34.8 | 10.4% | 5.2% |
| Ahmad Brooks | SF | 628 | 337 | 6 | 6 | 27 | 30.8 | 9.1% | 10.2% |
| Jared Allen | MIN | 665 | 383 | 15 | 5 | 21 | 34.5 | 9.0% | 9.6% |
Cameron Wake and Chris Long are the two most efficient pass rushers in the league so far this season, followed by Philly's tandem of Cole and Babin ahead of Ware. Philly's tandem in particular showcases the value of having a bookend rusher with the same type of potential, but it also shows you that good pass rushers alone will not win you games.
The other noticeable thing here is that apart from Andre Carter, the Pass Rushing Productivity for all these players has remained remarkably similar compared to last year. And Carter benefited immensely from leaving the Redskins and joing the Patriots.
Cowboys Linebackers
We've already established where the elite rushers sit in terms of PRP. So anything approaching 10% is a pretty good performance. Remember, PRP is only calculated against pass rushing snaps, so an argument that a given player plays more snaps against the run or vice versa, while true, is irrelevant. We'll start our look at the Cowboys' defense with the linebackers and how they stack up. Note that the numbers below contain the data from the Miami game, which the league table at the top does not.
| Player | Snaps | Pass Rush | QB Sk | QB Ht | QB Pr | QBDP | PRP '11 |
| DeMarcus Ware | 668 | 356 | 14 | 5 | 30 | 40.3 | 11.3% |
| Victor Butler | 142 | 79 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 7.5 | 9.5% |
| Sean Lee | 571 | 69 | 0 | 2 | 6 | 6.0 | 8.7% |
| Anthony Spencer | 641 | 283 | 4 | 5 | 21 | 23.5 | 8.3% |
| Keith Brooking | 296 | 22 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1.5 | 6.8% |
| Alex Albright | 24 | 12 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0.8 | 6.3% |
| Bradie James | 282 | 22 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0.8 | 3.4% |
You may or may not be surprised by the numbers, I know I certainly was. Victor Butler, despite some limitations against the run, has the second best pass rushing productivity among the Cowboys linebackers. Yes, he is used largely on passing downs, so that may impact his numbers a little, but having him in the line-up is an obvious boost for the Cowboys' pass rush. I was quite surprised to see Sean Lee so high on the list, one of the knocks on him was that he wasn't a particularly good pass rusher. Well, well, well.
Butler and Lee both had a good game yesterday as pass rushers, so the PFF numbers see a slight boost versus where they were last week.
Spencer at 8.3 is slightly below where he was in 2009 (9.2%) but above where he was last year (7.0%). Clearly, Spencer is no DeMarcus Ware. But he's far from being a scrub either. The average 3-4 OLB had a QBDP of 18.2 after ten games, Spencer had a QBDP of 20.5 after ten weeks so he's a slightly above average pass rusher. That may not be what you expect from a first round draft pick, but for what it's worth, PFF rate Spencer as the third best 3-4 OLB against the run, and he's a big part of why the Cowboys' run defense has been above average for the last couple of years.
Alex Albright is clearly still learning his job, and we shouldn't read too much into his numbers, particularly since they are off such a small base. If Albright had one more pressure, he'd be at the top of this list with 12.8%, so watch out for low base numbers in these comparisons. The same holds true for Bradie James and Keith Brooking who both don't have enough pass rushes to make any conclusive statements.
Including the Miami game, the Cowboys in total have accumulated 145.3 Quarterback Disruption points. DeMarcus Ware accounts for 40.3 of those, the remaining linebackers combined have accumulated 40.0 QBDPs. Together, the linebackers are responsible for 55% of the Cowboys' QBDPs. The remainder is split between the defensive line and the defensive backs. And that will be the subject of the third and final part of this look at the Cowboys' pass rush.
186 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Will you be doing a post on the defensive linemen?
It seems to me the key issue is not pressure from the edges, which has been pretty consistent, but the absence of pressure from the interior, which allows opposing QBs to step up in the pocket.
Yep. I’ll try to get it out over the weekend. When I started this thing, I thought it’d be one quick post, but man, has this thing ballooned on me.
by One.Cool.Customer on Nov 25, 2011 2:55 PM CST up reply actions
I'm interested in seeing how Coleman and Lissemore are rated,
they seem to make plays when given a chance..
Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.
Winston Churchill
We Fight On !!,That's The Cowboys Way !!.
Go Cowboys!!
by scotscowboyfan on Nov 25, 2011 4:27 PM CST up reply actions
+57
I’ve been anxoiusly awaiting this post only to have it come out 30 minutes after I get off work(which happens to be where I do most my reading here famliy and what not). So glad to see Mr. butler so high on this list as I thought he would be. I really like this guy and hope to see alot more of him rushing the passer and let Spence worry about running downs. Man it hurt to see him get juked by Bush on Thurs, but he did right by taking the outside and making him cut inside, if he had any help like he shoulda that play woulda been blown up!
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Nov 26, 2011 7:09 AM CST up reply actions
Yep, every time I see "The Butler" with a sack, pressure, or in the QB's face,
I’m thinking, “Why doesn’t he get more playing time?”
I want to see a headline that says, “The Butler Did It”
"....the Cowboy way...." (Head Coach, Jason Garrett)
i'm pretty sure KD or OCC have some numbers on him against the run
from an eye test he looks average at best, but what do i know? that be the only suggestion i could think of
The realist keepin it real amongst the surrealists
I was in Baghdad before these little B.G.'s was in they daddy-bags.
by starbury_to_s-jaxci2000 on Nov 25, 2011 4:09 PM CST up reply actions
Glad to see Howie's boy is living up to his billing.
Nobody cares about your effin fantasy team, keep it to yourself...........Lock n Load
yup
Tony Romo 2011's League's Most Valuable Player and 2012's Superbowl MVP
"No one gives us the right, we take it." L. ~SPN
yup he is and quite impressively too i might add
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Nov 26, 2011 7:11 AM CST up reply actions
I love Victor Butler
always makes plays…aside from getting a juke from Reggie Bush.
Why doesn't RR, when he calls for an ILB #51 instead just say #54 get in there
there is a very very good chance he’ll be more effective. Right?!
Tony Romo 2011's League's Most Valuable Player and 2012's Superbowl MVP
"No one gives us the right, we take it." L. ~SPN
*ILB Blitz
Tony Romo 2011's League's Most Valuable Player and 2012's Superbowl MVP
"No one gives us the right, we take it." L. ~SPN
Not yet. Bruce Carter hasn’t so much as sniffed at the QB in his 24 defensive snaps this year, only six of which saw him rushing.
by One.Cool.Customer on Nov 25, 2011 4:30 PM CST up reply actions
I cover my eyes when I see Brooking blitz
Tony Romo 2011's League's Most Valuable Player and 2012's Superbowl MVP
"No one gives us the right, we take it." L. ~SPN
Sometimes I think so does he.
by Omar Little on Nov 25, 2011 6:09 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
He is not what he used to be
Hey Washington... D.C. stands for Dallas Cowboys
DeMarcus is EveryWare Man
Twitter: @silva918
what is carter being asked to do on defense?
and is he getting more snaps each game?
by billstickers on Nov 26, 2011 5:29 AM CST up reply actions
11 snaps vs SEA, 13 snaps vs BUF, no defensive snaps against either the Redskins or the Dolphins. He is being used strictly on special teams for now.
by One.Cool.Customer on Nov 26, 2011 6:17 AM CST up reply actions
Lee had 10 tackles last week, not bad for a one arm man.
How many did he have yesterday?
Nobody cares about your effin fantasy team, keep it to yourself...........Lock n Load
Whats the time table on that man.
It was funny my gf was like what jersey do you want this year, I eventually said Lee and she was like whos that, don’t you want Murray or Witten.. at that moment Lee made that huge hit on that unbalance line play. haha shes like okay then.
Tony Romo 2011's League's Most Valuable Player and 2012's Superbowl MVP
"No one gives us the right, we take it." L. ~SPN
you had to be there
Tony Romo 2011's League's Most Valuable Player and 2012's Superbowl MVP
"No one gives us the right, we take it." L. ~SPN
Lee had seven tackles yesterday, 5 solo, 2 assists.
by One.Cool.Customer on Nov 25, 2011 4:31 PM CST up reply actions
He was a steal in the 2nd round, too bad we can't say that about Dez as a late 1st.
Nobody cares about your effin fantasy team, keep it to yourself...........Lock n Load
I keep hearing and I see flashes, but he disappears for most of the game.
Nobody cares about your effin fantasy team, keep it to yourself...........Lock n Load
A few things
He was hurt for a good part of last year and he’s been double and triple teamed with Austin out. He also doesn’t always get thrown too, so it’s hard to beat him up for that. Yes he needs to get in shape and eat right, but he’s definitely worth the pick.
by Omar Little on Nov 25, 2011 6:08 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Well he's in better shape than I am...so I'll disclaim that right away
Chris Carter questioned his conditioning, and as evidenced by his cramps in the Jets game and the injury following in the SF game I’d say his conditioning blows. Maybe it got better, it wouldn’t surprise me if he changed up a few things under direction of the brass upstairs. Do any of you remember when he used to tweet that he ate? There’s a lot of junk in there. Whataburger, Pappadeaux, lots of stuff like that.
A lot of people banged up and with cramps early in the season
Especially this year
by 1youngwiz on Nov 25, 2011 10:25 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Week 1 was a long time ago. He hasn't had cramps since.
The coaches keep saying about how hard he works, so I am going to believe them over a commentator from months ago.
Don't get me wrong though, I still back him a thousand percent
He needs to work on his conditioning and if he does I don’t see any reason why he can’t be the best wide receiver in the game. Dude plays with balls galore, he can be Hines Ward with actual deep speed and moves. Just needs to take care of his body and it’ll take care of him and most importantly, it’ll take care of us.
Lee Crushed Bush
. . . early in game on a wierd play where the Fins lined up everyone to the right of the center. Lee ignored all the hoopla and zeroed in on Bush and blasted him for a three yard loss; Lee can lay the wood or outsmart the likes of Tom Brady and Payton Manning. Lee is the second most important defensive player to Ware, and one of the best young linebackers in the game.
good post... I like butler ... he made some good plays yesterday
hopefully he ups his game and becomes a more well-rounded player so he can get some more snaps
"They need security in the world, Craig!"
What the hell was the punt team up to? They were obviously gonna try a fake to Holley (till he false started). Then that weird formation later on. Seems like a bad idea on a short week to try a whole new fake punting strategy.
"On a journey to anywhere you can draw your own map."
I think its about time tor joe d to go.
by DavidLaFleur on Nov 25, 2011 5:12 PM CST up reply actions
+1
liked him early on but our ST has gotten horrendous as of late
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Nov 26, 2011 7:16 AM CST up reply actions
Dan Bailey's low hang time
And Matt McBriar’s injury are both his fault?
My most recent fanpost:
The Weekly Chessmatch: Cowboys @ Eagles
by CotySaxman on Nov 26, 2011 8:45 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
comment from another thread … relevant here …
I think Spencer is probably average. 6 sacks/season makes him average. That puts him 40-50 in the league. Not terrible but not a matchup nightmare. #93 isn’t a gaping hole but he isn’t a great strength either. he’s satisfactory.
Of course we all want an elite talent to match with Ware….
Anyway, as it, #93 is average. And the DEs are average to below average as well. I’m kinda of mixed about what to do. Most 1st round DL won’t be good pass rushers. Consistent pass rushers are usually elite talents. For example, I’m happy with the route Dallas took resigning Spears at $1M/season and Coleman if the alternative was Cam Jordan or Cam Heyward … because I don’t think Jordan or Heyward give you more than Spears/Coleman does. So I’d just as soon use the draft pick on anything else (that way at least you don’t tie up $ on a lame DL … if you’re going to have average players at least get them cheap).
anyway, Dallas has a lot of average between #93, #98, & #99. And it’s a hard hole to fill since everyone’s looking for pass rushers.
For God and country - Geronimo
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Nov 25, 2011 4:52 PM CST reply actions
Spencer Was Not Average Against Fins
. . . he had three or so tackles for loss; he had nearly ten tackles and many pressures. It was one of his better games; we are seeing Spencer emerge this season; rather late, and maybe too little, too late. But, if his upward trend in production continues, he would be worth resigning.
too be noted it was mostly against Colombo
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Nov 26, 2011 7:18 AM CST up reply actions
one ‘eye’ observation. To me, it appears Spencer just don’t have the athleticism to convert pressures into sacks. Ware’s ratio of sacks : pressures is about 1:2. Spencer’s is 1:5.
when spencer does beat his man, the QB can side-step or avoid him.
For God and country - Geronimo
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Nov 25, 2011 4:55 PM CST reply actions
yeah it seems if the QB moves out of his path then spencer kinda ho-hums it the rest of the play
couple plays he had to fight back towards the LOS because the QB stepped up in the pocket and he elected to to continue to get washed upfield
one time he couldnt beat the tackle and he spun towards the back seven and just “floated”
he’s not a HOF, he’s not a bum, but he definitely is a bust for a 6th year first rounder. But outside of Ware, the OLB/DE core is way too average paired up with this suspect secondary, spencer is just the best of average but they all could be upgraded.
The realist keepin it real amongst the surrealists
I was in Baghdad before these little B.G.'s was in they daddy-bags.
by starbury_to_s-jaxci2000 on Nov 25, 2011 5:51 PM CST up reply actions
What qualifies a bust?
He’s an above average pass rusher and top 3 run stopper. Does that mean everyone below him on both lists taken in the first round is also a bust? He’s still in the league, starting, and performing at a high level 6 years later. How many 1st rounders are out of the league by then?
My most recent fanpost:
The Weekly Chessmatch: Cowboys @ Eagles
by CotySaxman on Nov 25, 2011 6:23 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
woodley and charles johnson went 2nd and 3rd round respectively
that whole 1st round DE core is full of busts
The realist keepin it real amongst the surrealists
I was in Baghdad before these little B.G.'s was in they daddy-bags.
by starbury_to_s-jaxci2000 on Nov 25, 2011 7:41 PM CST up reply actions
And Ratliff went 7th...
So that whole 6 rounds of DTs were busts. Romo, Miles went undrafted, so…
Point being, super stars can come from any round. 1st rounders should be above-average, and Spencer is at least that, and an elite run stopper. Comparing players within their draft classes is foolish. Most players would not experience the same success if drafted by another team with a different system, situation, etc. You can only judge a player’s value compared to what was expected of them.
What you realistically expect and what you hope for are not the same. What you and I expect is not necessarily what Jason, Rob and Jerry expect. Calling Spencer a bust makes fans seem like the entitled whiners that many make Cowboys’ fans out to be.
My most recent fanpost:
The Weekly Chessmatch: Cowboys @ Eagles
by CotySaxman on Nov 25, 2011 8:30 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
On average
The better players are drafted higher…
by Tyrone Jenkins on Nov 25, 2011 11:53 PM CST up reply actions
So high draft position = above average player.
I agree. But a star? Those are special players that aren’t always found high. This is because their main attribute is work ethic, and work ethic isn’t measured at the combine.
High draft position roughly corresponds with high athletic measurables. Stardom more often coincides with effort and sufficient athleticism. Almost everyone in the NFL is sufficiently athletic.
My most recent fanpost:
The Weekly Chessmatch: Cowboys @ Eagles
by CotySaxman on Nov 26, 2011 1:30 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Coty,
I think it’s pretty easy to understand why fans are disappointed with #93.
Dallas’s pass defense has been an issue going back to 2009. Because the OLB gets a lot of pass rush opportunities it’s natural that’s one of the positions people immediately focus on.
What do you think Dallas should do to improve their pass defense? What would have the biggest impact?
For God and country - Geronimo
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Nov 26, 2011 7:33 AM CST up reply actions
Two press corners.
The biggest problem I have observed is receivers running routes unimpeded. A good press is all it takes to convert hits to sacks and pressures to hits. Our corners, side from Jenkins, are below average in press coverage. Spencer, as noted, is an above average pass rusher. Therefore the corners are the weakest links in pressure packages, and the most easily improved.
My most recent fanpost:
The Weekly Chessmatch: Cowboys @ Eagles
by CotySaxman on Nov 26, 2011 1:25 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
And I understand why fans are disappointed.
I just think its unreasonable. If he was average or below average in any way I could understand disappointment, but “ugh, above average!” just sounds silly. Just as valid as the disappointment in not winning Super Bowls every other year. Sure, you can expect a Super Bowl, but is it a reasonable expectation?
My most recent fanpost:
The Weekly Chessmatch: Cowboys @ Eagles
by CotySaxman on Nov 26, 2011 1:41 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
he’s average in the most important aspect.
20.5 QBDP after ten weeks vs 18.2 for ‘average’. That’s 2 / game vs 1.8 / game. Indistinguishable from average.
Ware meanwhile has 40 QBDP through 11 weeks, or 3.6 / game. so there is a huge difference between what Ware is and what Spencer is.
I get what you’re saying but Spencer is in the critical role in the 3-4.
Let me give you an analogy. RW was an average WR. I often pointed this out; that RW wasn’t a zero. However I get why people wanted RW upgraded.
I don’t believe Spencer is the #3 run stopper. Ware, Harrison, Suggs. He’s not better a better run stopper than any of those players.
In fact in the list I saw, Spencer wasn’t even top 10
http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2011/6/2/2203658/demarcus-ware-1-in-run-stop-rate
p.s. funny I hadn’t even looked at the link when I wrote the Ware, Suggs, Harrison comment
For God and country - Geronimo
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Nov 26, 2011 4:35 PM CST up reply actions
2 vs 1.8 is indistinguishable?
So, a sack and a pressure (admittedly, that’s 1.75, but it translates…) is just as good as two sacks? Tony Romo would disagree, and any other quarterback who disregards pressure. 1.8 vs 2.0 shows that he is roughly 11% better than “average,” which is fairly significant. Also consider that this “average” is coming from a position that typically does not tally the sacks that its compliment enjoys. And yet, Anthony’s numbers are lumped in with ALL outside linebackers in 3-4 schemes. Still, he is 11% higher than average amongst the entire grouping of outside linebackers, despite the fact that the quarterback can always see him coming. How does he rank as a pass-rusher amongst strong side outside linebackers? I’d venture it’s even more significantly above average.
My most recent fanpost:
The Weekly Chessmatch: Cowboys @ Eagles
by CotySaxman on Nov 26, 2011 8:23 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
1. sample error has to be considered
2. have you considered what the difference between 20.5 and 18.2 is? We’re talking about 3 extra QB pressures over 10 games! To me that’s not convincing evidence that Spencer is ‘above average’.
For God and country - Geronimo
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Nov 26, 2011 8:41 PM CST up reply actions
I agree on 1.
I wish the comparison was made with efficiency, rather than volume stats, considering the frequency with which Spencer is back in coverage.
On the the last point, what more would convince you that he’s above average? His production > average, therefore he is above average. I thought that was a true or false, with “>” being a boolean operator and all. Bear in mind, I’m a programming student, so I view things often with very basic logic.
My most recent fanpost:
The Weekly Chessmatch: Cowboys @ Eagles
by CotySaxman on Nov 26, 2011 10:47 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
no ratliff was a steal
he’s not better than Trent Cole and Justin Tuck or Mike Patterson. Unless you want to count those other players that dallas drafted that year busts too like Spears(1st round) and Canty(4th round)
and canty is not a bust but there is no way spears isnt. so much talent chosen after his pick. If spears is a bust by your standards then so is spencer
The realist keepin it real amongst the surrealists
I was in Baghdad before these little B.G.'s was in they daddy-bags.
by starbury_to_s-jaxci2000 on Nov 26, 2011 5:46 PM CST up reply actions
I haven't established my standards.
They have little to do with draft position. I only intended to demonstrate that comparing players within a draft class is silly. How often is the number 1 overall pick the best player from that class? The chances are that with any given pick you will not take the best player available. You draft someone that fills a need and, hopefully, becomes an above-average football player.
My most recent fanpost:
The Weekly Chessmatch: Cowboys @ Eagles
by CotySaxman on Nov 26, 2011 8:28 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
yeah
gaines adams(RIP) 4th overall
jamaal anderson 8th overall
adam carriker 13th overall
jarvis moss 17th overall
anthony spencer 26th overall (spencer is not a bust but he is inconsistent and tends to meander on average for long stretches)
just a weak core of DE’s that got drafted in the first round
The realist keepin it real amongst the surrealists
I was in Baghdad before these little B.G.'s was in they daddy-bags.
by starbury_to_s-jaxci2000 on Nov 26, 2011 5:52 PM CST up reply actions
Hard to call him a bust
I’ve said this before y’all have to understand why he was drafted and the system Wade ran he needed Spencer to be a run stopper and he is. Like drafting a wr and mad he isn’t a te wade needed his other olb to stop the run and secure that side of the line while ware gets the sack he is living up to his purpose of his draft.
by Sado44 on Nov 25, 2011 7:37 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
well he's not a bust because he sucks, he's a bust because the front office reached for him
i think they could have snagged him in 2nd or 3rd round and took Joe Staley, Ben Grubbs, or Greg Olsen instead in the first round. Or go after Woodley who outperformed spencer in the same college conference.
had they passed him up for one of the aforementioned players would we be missing spencer? doubt it. not like run-stopping OLB’s are the toughest find out there
The realist keepin it real amongst the surrealists
I was in Baghdad before these little B.G.'s was in they daddy-bags.
by starbury_to_s-jaxci2000 on Nov 25, 2011 7:46 PM CST up reply actions
On the last point...
Spencer is ranked third best against the run. I believe Ware is one of the top two. So…how is it not hard to find a replacement for the third best player at anything? That’s like saying Ware is easily replaced, because he’s only the 4th most disruptive pass rusher.
My most recent fanpost:
The Weekly Chessmatch: Cowboys @ Eagles
by CotySaxman on Nov 25, 2011 8:33 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
saying had they got Greg Olsen or one of those o-lineman instead
and maybe took woodley or the next year took calais campbell, kendall langford or kept on to Erik Walden, i’d think they’d be in a similar or better position.
we’re not saying “oh its so hard to find another Ware” no we are talking about finding an OLB to stop the run(whether in a 3-4 under wade or 4-3 under zimmer)
The realist keepin it real amongst the surrealists
I was in Baghdad before these little B.G.'s was in they daddy-bags.
by starbury_to_s-jaxci2000 on Nov 26, 2011 5:59 PM CST up reply actions
PLease
Asomugha was taken after Newman and Romo was taken after Palmer, I guess that makes Carson Palmer and Terrance Newman busts. There’s typically a better player available after you pick, but I’d say getting a good player in the late first counts as a successful pick.
by Omar Little on Nov 25, 2011 10:01 PM CST up reply actions
trying to spin it
Newman in his prime has contributed more production than spencer. Sure polamalu and asomugha are better than him but newman can bring something to that table when in convo with those two.
Carson Palmer was legit before the knee injury. and even after sitting out almost two years he still performs like a top 10 QB.
Romo was a steal. all the other QB’s drafted that year kiss Romo’s and Palmers’ pinky rings. Remember Romo was on the brink of getting cut if not for Parcells wanting to hold on to him.
The realist keepin it real amongst the surrealists
I was in Baghdad before these little B.G.'s was in they daddy-bags.
by starbury_to_s-jaxci2000 on Nov 26, 2011 6:07 PM CST up reply actions
Hard to compare anyone to ware
Can’t be mad he isn’t ware I mean who is right. He does his job and does it well 3rd in league against the run. Thats his job. And gets pressure. I’d say he is who he is.
by Sado44 on Nov 25, 2011 7:44 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
"Spencer just don’t have the athleticism to convert pressures into sacks."
This to me seems the key—and it applies to everyone on the front seven other than Ware (perhaps Carter and Lee will one day become the exceptions).
that would be a good reason to draft more athletic players in the front.
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
Spencer is not powerful like Woodley.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Nov 25, 2011 9:00 PM CST up reply actions
Im going to do a post on the percentage of times that Alan Ball sucks
100% of the time. There. Finished.
We're here to win football games. The way to do that is to tell him and to get on him at the right times. I do that when you guys (media) don't see and watch.''
What else makes a strong leader?
"You win,'' Romo said. "You're a very good leader once you win.
"That's' what we're going to do.''
if he can't cover brian hartline...
i have no confidence he can cover any of the giants receivers. Shoot. Throw in ARZ and TB too. Early Doucet and Preston Parker will eat his lunch.
Get healthy soon Mike Jenkins!!!
"They need security in the world, Craig!"
Alan Ball made Hartline look like Wes Welker
by 2tightendpkg on Nov 25, 2011 5:57 PM CST up reply actions
how the dude still on the roster since 2007 is a surprise to me
he was almost & should of been cut when he was drafted in 2007. he given the job over the other DB bc he was a draft pick, cheaper & a inch taller then the other CB. should of been a practice squad player then a rolling stone a couple years later but instead they give him the FS job, that worked out well but then people were like he’s a CB he did well there. i honestly laughed at posters for years & if you follow this team then have to remember why they moved him to FS.
Alan Ball, Bennett, Spencer & soon i am going to add felix to list of players stealing money if he doesn’t step it up. i expected Felix to be more like Murray but there not in the same class.
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
Overview
it is certainly gonna be a relaxing weekend. some college ball on Sat and go out play on Sunday.
" Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. "
Samuel Beckett
"There is no cause for concern" Jerry Jones
Yesterday on the radio some guy was saying that Ware wasn't elite
Because he “didn’t have an impact all the time” and “couldn’t come through when it counted”. It was so stupid and it made me so mad that if there was a cliff handy, I would have driven off of it just to shut him up. Changing the station wouldn’t suffice.
by me gusta on Nov 25, 2011 5:16 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Suggestion
If you’re feeling adventurous you should also count holds and maybe false starts. If a guy gets held he gets his defense ten yards. I know with penalties it’s hard to do a fair comparison because the officiating in the league is so terrible, but I think that should be a part of any pass rushing analysis.
by Omar Little on Nov 25, 2011 6:06 PM CST via iPhone app reply actions
Third to last paragraph
Ends without really ending…
My most recent fanpost:
The Weekly Chessmatch: Cowboys @ Eagles
by CotySaxman on Nov 25, 2011 6:16 PM CST via mobile reply actions
I believe it is called an incomplete sentence…. Yeah OCC you kinda just started and left us hanging there. What has the run defense been?
by Aaron Burtram on Nov 25, 2011 10:20 PM CST up reply actions
ha ha ha. By now I’ve completely forgotton what I initially wanted to write there. I’ll go for “above average”
by One.Cool.Customer on Nov 26, 2011 3:05 AM CST up reply actions
I'm a Hatcher fan.
Coleman, Spears, and Spencer have had their moments at times.
Lissemore is getting there.
Brent needs more playing time.
Ratliff is getting push!
Realist.
well, this is one set of stats that completely matched (most of)our eye tests!
Pessimists say the cup is half-empty, while optimists say it's half-full. Well, the real question is, is it a good beer? Realist Larry, 2011
I agree, but OCC doesn't, apparently.
I’m surprised that he was surprised that Butler is our next best pass rusher.
by Baked Potato Soup on Nov 25, 2011 11:27 PM CST up reply actions
Sorry if that wasn’t clearly phrased. I’m surprised that Lee is up there. Butler, not so much.
by One.Cool.Customer on Nov 26, 2011 3:06 AM CST up reply actions
Lee is a suprise up there for me too
now for tackles and INTs not so much but QB hits and pressures yeah suprised.
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Nov 26, 2011 7:25 AM CST up reply actions
really?
good short shuttle and vertical. sackseer says ….
For God and country - Geronimo
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Nov 26, 2011 8:17 AM CST up reply actions
Lee is an ILB
Not really a position that racks up sacks in a 3-4 scheme. Lee is more valuable dropping into coverage due to his instincts…
by Tyrone Jenkins on Nov 26, 2011 8:22 AM CST up reply actions
talking about Sackseer … I noticed that Adam Carriker has 5 sacks already.
For God and country - Geronimo
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Nov 26, 2011 8:27 AM CST up reply actions
suprised my eye test is all.
hadnt really noticed him back there with the QB always seems to be attacking the runner.
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Nov 26, 2011 8:55 AM CST up reply actions
Man, I need the me more precise here. I am not surprised that Lee can rush the passer, I’m surprised that he does at all as an ILB.
After all, Lee is the duct tape that is holding this defense together. Send him after the passer ans all hell breaks loose in the soft middle of the Cowboys defense.
by One.Cool.Customer on Nov 26, 2011 11:31 AM CST up reply actions
I didn’t mean that critically. I just meant I always expected that Lee would be a pretty efficient pass rusher.
BTW, nice job converting these to efficiency stats. Really good stuff.
For God and country - Geronimo
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Nov 26, 2011 1:14 PM CST up reply actions
no worries, I didn’t take that as critical at all. I really was very imprecise in what I said. Twice. That does bug me a little :-)
by One.Cool.Customer on Nov 26, 2011 1:39 PM CST up reply actions
Butler
He needs to be on the field on 3rd and long.Wtf doesnt RR get its not rocket science,
Respect the greatness that is the Dallas Cowboys
I hate to say it
But it looks like we need Mike Jenkins back asap. Better coverage by out secondary will help the pass rush.
Hey Washington... D.C. stands for Dallas Cowboys
DeMarcus is EveryWare Man
Twitter: @silva918
We have d ware and Ratliff
The pass rush should be helping the secondary
by 1youngwiz on Nov 25, 2011 10:31 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
We need a 3rd pass rusher
Hey Washington... D.C. stands for Dallas Cowboys
DeMarcus is EveryWare Man
Twitter: @silva918
we already have one he is only a back up though to our elite run stopper
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Nov 26, 2011 7:37 AM CST up reply actions
thats a chicken or the egg argument
You can go back and forth on whether the rush helps coverage or the coverage helps the rush. The answer is… Yes.
by matt575 on Nov 26, 2011 10:36 AM CST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
this needs to be greened
Truth here
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Nov 26, 2011 5:50 PM CST up reply actions
The Problem with our DE's
They’re too slow. We don’t need Julius Peppers, we need a good DE. Move Ratliff to DE and draft a fat boy to play NT. Problem solved
Respect the greatness that is the Dallas Cowboys
Why does everyone think
That they’re smarter than Rob Ryan, Wade Philips, and everyone involved with Ratliff playing Nose?
My most recent fanpost:
The Weekly Chessmatch: Cowboys @ Eagles
by CotySaxman on Nov 25, 2011 8:39 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Have u seen the pass rush ?
Did u see reggie Bush going up the middle ?
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Nov 25, 2011 9:02 PM CST up reply actions
Not really… He bounced alot to the outside when there wasn’t anything up the middle. Those were his big gainers.
by Aaron Burtram on Nov 25, 2011 10:22 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed
Is there another JJ Watt in this draft?Love the Tyron pick and would not change it but I really liked JJ Watt as well.Its what our DLine needs
by Oshawa Cowboy on Nov 26, 2011 7:09 AM CST up reply actions
This Should be Anthony Spencer's Last Year
Some people only think in binary. They think that either a player is fantastic or terrible. When one says that a player should be let go, then that person must think the player is terrible.
I don’t think Spencer is terrible. I think he’s average, medium, run-of-the-mill. He’s been a just fine player for Dallas for the 4 years we’ve had him, although never living up to his pedigree.
So now he’s getting older and he’s ready for his big contact. Do you want to pay a big contract to Anthony Spencer to spend a lot more of that salary cap on him and ensure he will be Ware’s bookend until the end of Ware’s career? I don’t.
What? End of Ware’s career I say? Why yes. Ware is now on the wrong side of 30. A curious thing happens to athletes as they age, they tend to lose things. Ask those from any sport from baseball to boxing and they’ll tell you the first thing to go is speed. This is a bit of a problem for pass rushers since the who key to being a successful pass rusher is speed. Now I think Ware is a phenomenal specimen but every human succumbs to age. I certainly think he will have 2 more good years, 3? possibly. 4? now that would be a trick.
So if you’re re-signing Spencer you are ensuring he will be Ware’s partner for the rest of Ware’s career.
Now let’s explore a couple of options:
1) Victor Butler becomes the starter. The stat sheet and eye test you will actually improve your pass rush with Butler. Even if not, you retain about $4-6 million in salary cap space.
2) You use your 1st round pick on a legit OLB. Now you have a true bookend to Ware in the Lamaar Woodley vein and he gets to learn all of the pass rushing tricks from the best in the game so that when Ware finally needs to hang them up, you have his successor ready.
I love option #2 as opposed to signing Spencer to a big-money long-term deal. And I like option #1 better as well.
That doesn’t mean Spencer is a bad player. He can have a nice career for another team as an OLB or may even be better as a DE in a 4-3 scheme (where I think he should play). I’m happy to let him have a great career for someone else and get paid a bunch of money. I just think it’s time that we take the next step.
Cowboys to the Superbowl
by Blue Eyed Devil on Nov 25, 2011 8:55 PM CST reply actions 5 recs
Ehhh
I agree mostly. He’s an average pass rusher, but great against the run. So I’d say he’s above average, he doesn’t do the biggest thing he should do but his secondary skills are pretty good. I’d give him a B-. Totally agree I don’t want to give him a big contract, that’s out of the question. My thing is, who will give him a big contract? Texans? Eagles? Chargers? I just don’t see many teams overpaying him. I’d be okay with keeping him and paying him what he’s worth.
Lots of teams
It’s a lose-lose situation for the Cowboys. If his price his high that means there are a few 3-4 teams vying for him as an OLB. If he doesn’t commend a lot of money then that brings the 4-3 teams into play who are looking for a strong-side DE. Just like Oakland did with Greg Ellis.
His potential versatility makes him valuable as a free agent. For a list of teams just go to the bottom of the NFL defense stat sheet and figure out who needs an OLB or a DE.
Cowboys to the Superbowl
by Blue Eyed Devil on Nov 25, 2011 9:30 PM CST up reply actions
I mean I see teams that can use a 34 OLB or a DE
But that doesn’t mean that I see a team that’ll overpay Spencer. Maybe it’s a Canty situation, who knows…but I don’t see him getting a big deal. Maybe I’m wrong, I hope for his sake I am.
Think Bowen at best, Canty at worst
and remember we’re talking about 5-tech DEs and 3-tech DTs here. If you are running a defense you can cover up mediocre DEs and DTs in their respective schemes (just look at our roster).
You can’t cover up bad 3-4 OLBs or 4-3 DEs. You just can’t do it. If you are one of these bad 3-4 teams that has no one at OLB you would kill for a guy like Spencer because your defense just doesn’t work.
The Patriots have to go 4-3 half the time because they don’t have a 3-4 OLB. We’re going to see another bad one this weekend with the Cardinals. Spencer would automatically be their best OLB. The Jets with their leaky run defense could jump at Spencer. Think the Chargers might be looking for a jolt in the arm?
Cowboys to the Superbowl
by Blue Eyed Devil on Nov 25, 2011 10:17 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, you're right about the Jets and Chargers
The Jets do plenty of stupid things, something about playing in NY and having a name that ends in “ets,” and the Chargers could use help anyway they can get it. Pats? I don’t see them overspending for anyone not named Tom Brady. They let Ty Law, Randy Moss, and Richard Seymour go without even thinking twice. If they’ll let three HoFers go I don’t see them overpaying for spencer.
As to Option 2
Courtney Upshaw seems like he’ll probably fall to the Cowboys, unless something really good happens (either for him or the Cowboys) he should be there when they pick. Hell, there’s a good chance he’d be BPA anyways, so there’s that too. No really good CBs in the draft, Morris Claiborne is good, but I think he’ll get overdrafted. So what? Re-sign Elam and Sensabaugh then go something like:
Upshaw
C
CB
RB
G
T
Lottery pick
In the draft?
I haven't done my draft research yet (won't begin until after college football season) but I like what I've read about Upshaw
Cowboys to the Superbowl
by Blue Eyed Devil on Nov 25, 2011 9:31 PM CST up reply actions
When watching him he looks pretty damn good.
He’s a lot bigger than most SOLBs like Woodley, Matthews, and Miller, but the dude plays pretty well. Obviously we’ll have to check his measurables, but the game tape is legit. He’s 6-2 and 265 so he’s pretty massive. McShay has him at 21st and Kiper at 19th, so probably right around where Dallas will pick in the 21-25 range.
this
Bruce Carter+Sean Lee=BRUCE LEE!!!!
RDD=REAL DEAL DEMARCO!!!!
by Archie Barberio on Nov 25, 2011 9:39 PM CST up reply actions
Think again
Reggie White, Bruce Smith, Charles Haley….. Nuff Said
by Aaron Burtram on Nov 25, 2011 10:23 PM CST up reply actions
actually, I have no clue what you're trying to say.
Cowboys to the Superbowl
by Blue Eyed Devil on Nov 25, 2011 11:53 PM CST up reply actions
I was refering to your comment about every athelete succombs to age. I supplied several cases where they actually were just as good after 30 as they were before.
by Aaron Burtram on Nov 26, 2011 3:58 AM CST up reply actions
also another thing about Ware
he uses his brain to help his body. For instance being a “nice” tackler he is saving his body from all the high impact collisions by making good clean sacks. He will just as quickly go for the strip while sacking vs the big jarring hit. These small things that kinda drove me crazy are now seeming smarter and smarter.
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Nov 26, 2011 8:07 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah...
I remember a couple people saying they wished Ware played with more of a mean streak like Suh. Guess those days are gone.LOL
Rabid and luvin' it
by lonewolfz28 on Nov 26, 2011 12:55 PM CST up reply actions
It looks like most of them have opened their eyes.
There are still quite a few who want to shift at least part of the blame to someone else (offensive players or officials). Of course, there are the few knuckleheads that still defend him with every fiber of their being. But, most of them no longer see him as the misunderstood and misrepresented player they did when they played us.
Rabid and luvin' it
Charles Haley's last pro-bowl year was when he was 31
Reggie White was a 300lber that doesn’t compare to Ware and Bruce Smith was arguably the best defensive end in NFL history.
There are always some exceptions to the rule and I can only hope that DeMarcus Ware can play into his age-37 season like Reggie White did. But you’re foolish as the GM of a team to build a team around hope. Hope is not a strategy.
Cowboys to the Superbowl
by Blue Eyed Devil on Nov 26, 2011 3:28 PM CST up reply actions
well Ware physically and positionally(scheme wise) is
Lawrence Taylor, who played 13 seasons(183 games)
if you figure that Ware should play ~180 games over his career then he should play roughly 9-11 seasons
he is in season # 7 so more than likely he will play 2-4 more seasons
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Nov 26, 2011 6:06 PM CST up reply actions
But I’m also guessing that Ware will be able to exceed those numbers barring any serious injuries.
by Aaron Burtram on Nov 26, 2011 6:47 PM CST up reply actions
true
but I think at most you are looking at 15-16 years with the last couple of them at or below average production….
so at best we are talking probably 7 more years of high level(double digit sacks) production with two or three years of below average production
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Nov 26, 2011 11:50 PM CST up reply actions
interesting theory you have there, Ware being dominant into his 40s. I should ask him where he found the fountain of youth
or maybe age just don’t have an effect on Dallas Cowboys players. Maybe it’s magic or perhaps they’re Greek gods and age don’t affect them as it will you and me.
Yeah, I guess age don’t have an effect on Dallas Cowboys players, just ask the late-90s Cowboys teams who went undefeated and won the Superbowl every year, right?
Cowboys to the Superbowl
by Blue Eyed Devil on Nov 27, 2011 2:12 AM CST up reply actions
who said this?
interesting theory you have there, Ware being dominant into his 40s.
I said at most 7 years of “dominate play”
that puts Ware into his mid to late 30’s
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Nov 27, 2011 2:54 PM CST up reply actions
Lawrence Taylor dropped off after his age-31 season
Cowboys to the Superbowl
by Blue Eyed Devil on Nov 26, 2011 9:35 PM CST up reply actions
Taylor was also a cokehead drunk. That may have played a role in his diminished play
Lifelong Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
My Beer Blog: http://tiltingsuds.wordpress.com/
I would love to show you the finer points to a muay thai clinch whipped knee to the face seanrude
by matt575 on Nov 22, 2011 3:09 AM EST
There are also a number of other D Lineman/Linebackers who played exceptional after the age of 30. Kevin Greene, Chris Doleman to name a couple.
by Aaron Burtram on Nov 26, 2011 6:46 PM CST up reply actions
Tell me this
Would you rather give up a 12 yard run on first down or have two olb rush the sides and pressure the qb so he has to step up in the pocket and make a quick throw to his hot route te for a gain of 8. I believe ( very old defensive geezer told me this btw) when you game plan you game plan for the talent your playing. If you have two OLB strong pass rushing mind you coming in fast and strong yes its hard to get the ball out. So options are run the ball run it right up the tackles ass. Oh wait its a passing league I forget we don’t run the ball anymore right. You know why cause teams don’t stack pass rushers on both sides. One pass rusher one run stopper and clean up man. Force qb to leave pocket from the pass rushers side. Into the arms of your clean up OLB. If he options to run his side is the covered for the loss and if runs up his pass rushers side you have no too. Cause now you have a ILB taking the seem away for a loss. He is doing his job 100% we need tackles not ends or backers its the 3 men’s job up front to warrant enough attention to make a one on one with your Main pass rusher. This is from an old man I grew up to love he is world famous in my boom but I’m sure never heard of from anyone else. Great defensive mind and great love for the cowboys.
by Sado44 on Nov 25, 2011 11:56 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I find your argument flawed but I'll still play along
Let’s say there’s some false dichotomy between run-stopping and pass-rushing. Never mind that when Ratliff penetrates into the backfield it causes as much damage to run as pass plays or that no one wants to run at DeMarcus Ware even though he’s also one of the best pass rushers in the league or that Sean Lee happens to rate higher than Spencer in the above article even though he’s clearly the single best run-defending asset on this team.
From all that we’d probably conclude that talented players are good at lots of things and it’s flawed players that have to use one skill as a crush. But let’s pretend that all that doesn’t exist and play into this false dichotomy.
Even so, even in this false dichotomy why add another run stuffer? We have 4 DEs we rotate around that can’t do anything to rush the passer. The nose tackle in a 3-4 exists to take on double-teams in run-defense. And the whole concept of the 3-4 is for the two ILBs to knife through and get tackles on running backs.
So out of this team’s front-7 we have 5 players devoted to run defense (2 DEs, the NT, and 2 ILBs). That leaves only 1 player (Ware) we assign any kind of importance to for pass rush. Now you’re telling me that the 5:1 ratio of run defense to pass rush we have on this team isn’t enough. We can’s possibly go 5:2, that would just destroy everything. We have to create a system where we have 6 run defense specialists (Spencer) and then put everything on DeMarcus Ware to create a pass rush.
That’s really what we want in this front 7 is it? 6 run defenders and Ware left alone as a pass rusher? And then we wonder why we make every opposing QB (Matt Moore, Mark Sanchez, 2010 David Garrard, 2010 Jon Skelton) look like a prime Peyton Manning
Cowboys to the Superbowl
by Blue Eyed Devil on Nov 26, 2011 1:58 AM CST up reply actions
gotta agree with this!
it would be one thing to have spencer be the run stopper guy if like you said he was THE guy, but with Lee and all our DEs save maybe Hatcher being run stopping specialists we do need that second OLB pass rusher. Butler is the man for me given he will improve his run d with more time against it.
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Nov 26, 2011 8:46 AM CST up reply actions
Hang on a sec BED
a 3-4 DE isn’t just relegated to run stopping.
Cullen Jenkins has proven to be effective rushing the passer from the 5 tech spot. Same with Randy Starks, Calais Campbell, Darnell Dockett and Luis Castillo. Even JJ Watts (Texans) has 2.5 sacks as a rookie. I don’t understand why a 3-4 DE is thought of only in terms of run-stuffing…
That only applies to Dallas DEs it seems but other teams find a way to draft/acquire DEs that can get to the QB. Tuna thought Spears was that combo DE who could run-stuff and pash rush and wanted to draft him before drafting Ware (thank God he was overruled on draft day).
by Tyrone Jenkins on Nov 26, 2011 9:15 AM CST up reply actions
Hmmm...
Jason Hatcher has 3 sacks, plus an INT, a Forced Fumble and 2 Passes Defensed with 5 more games to play: http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/player/jason-hatcher/gamelog/401211
Kenyon Coleman has 1 sack and 2 PD
Marcus Spears has 1 sack and 1 PD
So, Hatcher has more sacks in 3 less games played than JJ Watt. They all have more PD’s (JJ Watt has 0).
Cullen Jenkins no longer plays in a 3-4 D. I do remember he had a banner year last season with the Packers, but he also had 5 seasons of 5 sacks or less(04,05,07,08,09) and 3 of those seasons were 3 sacks or less(05,07,08). I don’t remember whether all of those years were played in a 3-4 or not. Point is, he hasn’t been as consistent of a sack threat as many believed after his break season last year. http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/player/cullen-jenkins/careerstats/224753
Darnell Dockett’s sack numbers have also been up and down throughout his career. He’s had 6 seasons of 5 sacks or less (04,05,06,08,10) and 2 of those were 3 or less(05,06). http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/player/darnell-dockett/careerstats/200373
Calais Campbell had no sacks his rookie season. He has been phenomenal in the 3 seasons since. http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/player/calais-campbell/careerstats/535257
Louis Castillo’s sack numbers are not impressive at all. He’s had 5 or less sacks in 6 of his 7 seasons (granted he’s been hurt almost all of 2011). He had 3 or less in 5 of those 7 seasons. Not someone I’d hang my hat on as the poster child for pass rushing 3-4 DE’s. http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/player/luis-castillo/careerstats/299905
Randy Starks has numbers even worse than Castillo. He’s had 5 or less sacks in 7 of his 8 seasons and 3 or less in 6 of those 8. http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/player/randy-starks/careerstats/200387
Sorry, Calais Campbell looks more like an exception than the rule from your examples.
Rabid and luvin' it
well said
this DL & Spencers position needs to be upgraded with better pass rushing ability. if Butler can get after the QB that much better then Spencer i have no clue whos telling Rob Ryan what to do. with Lee healthy imo Butler could only help getting more reps in the game.
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
Pitt has 2 pass rushing OLB. Works great for them.
For God and country - Geronimo
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Nov 26, 2011 8:56 AM CST up reply actions
Agree
. . . it is bad news when top picks fail to live up to their pedigree. Think Sean Lee; now think Spencer. Imagine if Spencer had been the type of intelligent and aware football player that is Lee.
I would rather spend that 1st rounder on a top pass rushing DE.
Get a top CB in the 2nd round, then G/C in the 3rd, etc.
Resign Spencer if we can do so reasonably. But you are right, we need another pass rusher badly. But I would rather replace Coleman than Spears.
Spencer should move inside
Probably signing him to a contract and moving him inside is not what he wants so he would sign elsewhere but some of his skills seem to be better suited there
by Oshawa Cowboy on Nov 26, 2011 7:20 AM CST up reply actions
I would be on board for this move
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Nov 26, 2011 7:26 AM CST up reply actions
i’ll be surprised if there are ‘pass rushing DEs’ available where Dallas picks.
last year, in the all time DL draft, the last legit pass rusher was gone at 20 (Clayborn).
For God and country - Geronimo
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Nov 26, 2011 8:22 AM CST up reply actions
Agree
That’s why they should concentrate on pass rushing OLBs…
by Tyrone Jenkins on Nov 26, 2011 8:23 AM CST up reply actions
i would've taken Watt over Smith anyday.
never saw the value of a RT compare to a De with the skills Watt had. Dallas had a chance to a huge impact player for the next decade but instead we took a RT.
Dallas could of traded that pick and taken P.Taylor/C.Jordan & Soldier with the ammo Jacksonville offered.
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
See my reply to Tyrone Jenkins above.
Hatcher is having a better season than JJ Watt despite missing 3 games due to injury.
As far as the DE vs a RT argument goes, after the way Free’s played this season, how much longer do you think it’ll be before Tyron Smith is playing LT? Not very long IMHO. Looks like they played it smart with that pick.
Rabid and luvin' it
I expect a camp battle for LT in 2012 training camp
I don’t know who’s going to win it, but I expect a challenge.
Cowboys to the Superbowl
by Blue Eyed Devil on Nov 26, 2011 3:29 PM CST up reply actions
plus Columbo was HORRID last year
We had to replace him……
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Nov 26, 2011 6:20 PM CST up reply actions
I'm all about option 1 but am up for option 2 as well
I really like what I see in Butler and if he’s given starting reps I think we’ll see his run def improve too. The man has a very high motor and seems to have great speed too. Needs more time agaisnt quick shifty RBs to get used to their moves ie jukes.
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Nov 26, 2011 8:09 AM CST up reply actions
+1000
i would still let him walk if he had a probowl finish this season. it would tell me his success is streaky when he has it & when he doesn’t then he’s nothing more then average. this defense obviously needs a DL & OLB to get pressure quicker on the QB.
i say draft the best DL/OLB in the 1st rd then they can move up in the 2nd to get the other but they have Butler that could fill a void if at OLB if they go a different direction.
this team needs a Center, a #2TE, safety, CB, DL, OLB so theres a lot of directions in this draft but getting another pass rusher on the DL is a must have through draft/FA.
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
4-3. We can't draft olb's here so let's change to a 4-3.
It’s easier than a 3-4.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
and how does that "fix" the issue?
you still need Two OLB’s in the 4-3…..
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Nov 25, 2011 11:28 PM CST up reply actions
Not really
the SLB and WLB (sam and will) are more traditional LBs in responsibility. So, they tend to be shorter, lighther and faster than traditional 3-4 OLBs.
by Tyrone Jenkins on Nov 25, 2011 11:50 PM CST up reply actions
still doesn't "fix the Issue"
the issue is that and I quote:
We can’t draft olb’s herehow does moving to a 4-3 fix the “WE can’t draft OLB’s” issue?
UNless you move to a system that doesn’t use OLB’s then you still have to draft them…but we can’t draft them…..so how does moving to a 4-3 solve the issue of Dallas not being able to draft OLB’s?
the correct answer? IT DOESN"T
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Nov 26, 2011 7:23 AM CST up reply actions
Iron even you know the difference between a 4-3 olb and a 3-4 olb.
4-3 olb’s are easier to find. Our 3-4 has never been dominant. We ALWAYS seem to be missing something. Yet we continue on. Lack of pass rush. Spencer spinning his wheels. Still wasting time. Here we go again looking for another olb. Ware’s career is wasting away looking for that other olb. Still looking for another 3-4 ilb.
I for one an tired of the perpetual missing olb. Unless u draft from Virgina or Alabama or Georgia then you are drafting a 4-3 player. That autmatically makes them a project no matter how high you pick them.
It’s just time to move on from the 3-4. It has never ever been on par with the Steelers or Ravens or what you see in San Fran right now. Time to quit wasting picks on projects. Draft players and let them play the position they played in College.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Nov 26, 2011 9:03 AM CST up reply actions
Except for that whole 2009 season thing.
You know, the one where the Dallas Cowboys defense finished #2 in the league in fewest point allowed per game: http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=1&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=TOTAL_POINTS_GAME_AVG&tabSeq=2&season=2009&role=OPP&Submit=Go&archive=true&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=TOTAL_YARDS&qualified=true
Guess their 3-4 D didn’t ALWAYS suck.
Rabid and luvin' it
you STILL haven't answered the question
We can’t draft olb’s here
OLB for 4-3 or 3-4 makes no difference….WE CAN"T draft them, olb’s that is, according to you…. so How would switching from a 3-4 to a 4-3 solve the basic issue of Dallas not being able to draft them?
True it is “easier” to find olb’s for 4-3…but if you can’t draft them them what point is there for switching?
if you haven’t guessed by now I am being sarcastic….and you are being reactionary….the issue isn’t OLB in Dallas the issue is in the line…..all three of those teams have better overall DL’s than Dallas does…..
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Nov 26, 2011 6:28 PM CST up reply actions
Depends on who we meet… They could stink up the game and we could just blow them out.
by Aaron Burtram on Nov 25, 2011 10:24 PM CST up reply actions
Reality is that ...........
./..It has been hard for the cowboys to put together another Leon Lett and Erick Williams ofensive and defensive tandem
Nice article OCC
But I’d like to see some info regarding play calling before I surmise as to what the Boys pash rush efficiency is. A more telling stat might be SNAPS used for the specific purposes of getting to the QB – I’m sure Ware is utilized more in this fashion than any other person on the team.
The DEs are expected to stop the run and fill space – rushing is a luxury. Fans have been spoiled by an athletic Ratliff who had decent success pressuring in the past – he seems to have slowed down on that now but is certainly effective in the NT role. Spencer doesn’t rush the QB as often as Ware and when he does, he’s not coming from the blind side. Lastly, the Boys overall seem to rely WAY TO MUCH on zone blitzing schemes for pressure; many other teams (Ravens, Giants, etc.) seem to be able to put pressure on QBs by simply using D lineman in a one gap scheme. The Boys send slot CBs (Scandrick) and WILB/SILBs (Lee and Brooking) in addition to Ware and the rest – doing so provides other teams w/ film on how to counteract. This makes for obtaining sacks later in the season more difficult.
Honestly, I think the Boys have the personnel for a 4-3 scheme. Ware was a 4-3 end in college and would be a great RE. Rat and Lissemore are 1 tech DTs, Hatcher and Spears would make for better 3 tech DTs and Geathers and Coleman are ideal LEs. Spencer is a natural Sam, Sean Lee is a MLB and Butler is Will.
Give each D lineman 1 gap responsibility and tell them to rush EVERYTIME, and see how the pash rush would increase.
by Tyrone Jenkins on Nov 25, 2011 11:03 PM CST reply actions
I thnk Ratliff is being accounted for by the other team
As far as I can tell he is almost always double teamed
Hard to be effective statwise but important nonetheless
That's the job of a NT
A NT is double-teamed all the time. A few years ago, he was able to get past it…
by Tyrone Jenkins on Nov 26, 2011 8:15 AM CST up reply actions
doubled and tripled at times
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Nov 26, 2011 8:50 AM CST up reply actions
changing from a 3-4 to a 4-3 is a lot more difficult then putting it in a comment section.
all that sounds good but Ware will be a 3-4 OLB until the day he retires. Jerrys spent years building this 3-4 defense around Ware as an OLB & i dont see that ever changing.
i think Ware is a better OLB imo & you build around HoF players like him. this offense revolves around Witten & everything else is a luxary. Spencer & Bennett need to step there game up or they need to be replaced next season. having that 2nd TE thats a dual threat or having a OLB that can take advantage of 1 0n 1 blocks is holding this team back imo.
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
this is MY opinion on the pass rush
as alot of you know I was high on drafting Adrian Clayborn in the past draft. the reason is this:
If you look at the blocking schemes based off the base set here is how it breaks down:
Ware- gets TE/LT
HAtcher-LG
Ratliff-C/RG
Coleman-RT
My opinion is that we need a DE that commands a double team in between Ratliff and Ware. That is what enable this Defense needs.By having that kind of player there, you force either A TE to block Ware by himself(the LT helps the LG) or the C helps the LG which forces the RG to block Ratliff one on one.
As an O-line who do you block?
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Nov 26, 2011 7:51 AM CST reply actions
So thats why Hatcher seems to be doing so good
Always single covered so maybe if teams see him getting more sacks that will bring over the LT. Would be nice to see another DL double teamed to give Rat and Ware a break.
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Nov 26, 2011 8:53 AM CST up reply actions
exactly CA
it isn’t that Hatcher suddenly became good, but that he switched to the right side between Ware and Ratliff….teams are so worried about those two that I bet that if you look at his sacks I bet he was either unblocked, or was singled up on a guard.
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Nov 26, 2011 6:32 PM CST up reply actions
And we never have that 3-4 de who can do that.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Nov 26, 2011 9:05 AM CST up reply actions
which is why I wanted Adrian Clayborn
he already has as many sacks as Hatcher and there are three key things…
1) Clayborn is a Rookie-Hatcher is a 6 year vet
2) Clayborn is going against teams LT most of the time… HAtcher is going against a guard
3) Clayborn doesn’t have a Ware or a Ratliff player on either side of him pulling double teams away from him….
could you imagine this Defense with him in between Rat and Ware?……
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Nov 26, 2011 6:39 PM CST up reply actions
+1
fix the DL/LB problems before they worry about safeties or CBs. Spencer really needs to some what have a probowl type finish to warrent worth keeping as a starter next season.
If Dallas gets in the playoffs with a healthy Austin, Felix & a focused Dez teams aren’t going to be thrilled to see them on the schedule. Dallas has no pressure or super expectations like in the past & that makes them dangerous.
Murray, Lee, Bailey & Robinson were all welcomed sights. i like to see Bruce Carter learn a little more of the playbook & get more reps as they get close to the playoffs.
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
I expected more comments on this
The same holds true for Bradie James and Keith Brooking who both don’t have enough pass rushes to make any conclusive statements.
That was the bulk of Wade’s “attacking defense” last year. He would send James and/or Brooking up the middle to disappear into the offensive line. They were useless – generating no pressure on the quarterback, and removing themselves from coverage. It was like playing 11-on-9. The nine other guys on defense could neither get to the quarterback or cover the receivers.
I’m glad to hear that their stat sample is so small. This is a step in the right direction.
Fear the Star!
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Blogging The Boys
Related FanShots on Blogging The Boys
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
SBNation.com Recent Stories
In Association With
Shutdown Corner - NFL - Yahoo! Sports
- How Kyle Orton almost cost the Colts Andrew Luck
- Detroit Lions DT Nick Fairley arrested again; now has more NFL arrests than NFL sacks
- Former high-school star Brian Banks does serious time on trumped-up charge, now hopes for an NFL shot
- Former ‘idiot kicker’ Mike Vanderjagt in trouble after accosting junior-high heckler
- Adrian Peterson blows teammates away in footraces; appears to be on the mend
