Understanding the Dallas Draft Process
I am not going to evaluate any players in this article, as I will leave that up to the guys like Chia that do an excellent job, but rather clear up a few things about two related things.
- Who is really the guy responsible for a draft or a group of drafts?
- What is the best strategy for a draft, Best Player Available (BPA), or Need?
First, to understand who is responsible for a draft, we have to understand how the process of drafting goes as it applies specifically to the Dallas Cowboys.
To begin, I will qualify how and what leads me to this understanding. First I listen very carefully to all the press conferences and try to gleen little nuggets that can be verified with observation as to their truthfullness and also can be verfied by other comments and articles. Also I get information from a ton of different sources, books, articles and guest appearences on radio and T.V.
So, with that background, I will begin with the process and show that the process will lead us to a real conclusion as to who is responsible for all drafts and what the best strategy is/should be.
THE PROCESS:
A few months before the draft, the Scouting Department, (The guys that have been following the College players all year), put together the draft board and just before the draft the "Draft Room Team", (The guys in the "War Room", Jerry, Stephen, Coaches and Scouts, etc.), goes over it and all are given a chance to give their input, (relative to BPA and Need for their wants and needs, as well as many possible scenerios that might unfold relative to trades and guys that migh fall), and then they will reach a concensus. Keep in mind that Jerry gives the most weight to the Scouts opinion. As you will see in a link below, the Cheif Scout actually "Oversees" and "runs" each draft as this quote shows:
"Overseeing the proceedings was 35-year-old Jeff Ireland, running his first draft as head of college and pro scouting."
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/dolphins/miami-dolphins-gm-jeff-ireland-has-more-responsibility-1198684.html
During the draft the picks come off the board in order,(for the most part...see below as to BPA or NEED), unless a player (or two) fall and then a decision must be made.
For example, In the Felix Jones draft, Mendenhall and Felix Jones both had fallen on the board when the Cowboys were ready to pick.
Mendenhall was the higher rated pick, but as in all Cowboys drafts, anyone in the draft room can make their (Sales) pitch to change the pick if they can win over the room. Jason Garrett stood up and made his pitch for Felix Jones and won over the room. ( Evidence, one of the Hard Knocks Episodes that shows Garrett making his sales pitch to win over the room.)
In one of the drafts when Parcells was here he tried to "Sell" the room on taking Spears over D-Ware with the 11th pick. I for one am glad he failed in that bid. Here is the link to the "Desire of Parcells" to pick Spears, but as in all drafts, the pick must be a "Concensus."
"Bill wanted Spears, and wanted him badly," said Larry Lacewell, who spent 12 years with the Cowboys before Ireland took his place. "(Parcells) said he couldn't go to a 3-4 defense without him. Jeff wanted Ware, and he stood up to Bill and said that was going to be the pick."
So, Jeff won that "sales" pitch because they stayed with what the "Board" had. Also this quote further emphisizes that Jeff was indeed running that draft. He told Parcells..."That was going to be the pick!"
All major decisions are by "Concensus" as Jerry's philosophy is that "many heads are better than one." As in all of life there are exceptions, but HERE is a link that is one of many articles that clearly show the "Concensus" management style that Jerry uses in his position as G.M.
When the coaches had finally had enough of T.O.'s act, Jerry had to accept the Concensus and let him go, even though Jerry wanted to keep him.
And the quote from the "Concensus" link:
Josh: No, it's not going to happen. Everyone should've accepted that fact long ago. It's his company, and this is the way he wants to run it. But you have to know he isn't as hands-on as most people perceive him to be. Jerry takes advice from the entire front office, and tries to reach a consensus. Some of those people could change, but he will still be the GM.
http://www.dallascowboys.com/news/news.cfm?id=5330AE0F-D029-654E-864639501FD903F6
Jimmy Johnson tried to "sell" the room to NOT TAKE EMMITT SMITH, and he got over ruled by the head scout who all but stood on the table and won over the room. Here is the link that shows Walt Yowarsky "selling" and getting "Concensus" on taking Emmitt, even though Jimmy had his heart set on taking a Defensive player in General, and a Linebacker in specific.
"But Wooten remembers the eldest scout, Walt Yowarsky, "all but standing up on the table and saying, 'This kid broke every high-school rushing record in Florida. He can catch, he can block, and I've yet to see him get caught from behind. All he does is make yards. You have to take him.'"
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=bayless/050211
Now, to be clear, Jimmy and Jerry were like "partners" in trying to make trades, both in the draft and prior to the draft. In the Hershell Walker trade, Jerry worked the phones with Cleveland, (Read...Greatest Team Ever: The Dallas Cowboys Dynasty of the 1990s, by Norm Hitzges), while Jimmy worked the phones with Minnesota. In the Emmitt draft, both were working the phones and Jimmy was trying to get a trade for a linebacker by moving up in the draft.....
Several Cowboy scouts had told me Johnson was dead-set on drafting a defensive difference-maker -- North Carolina State defensive end Ray Agnew or Baylor linebacker James Francis.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=bayless/050211
So, in reality....The Drafts are NOT PARCELLS DRAFTS....THEY ARE NOT JIMMY DRAFTS....they are a concensus of the draft room with the order of the board lined out by the Scouting Department because they are the ones that see these College players all year long...not the coaches or Jerry Jones.
Now to be fair, one could say..."That was a Parcells PICK, because he won over the room, usually during the draft, if it wasnt already a concensus prior to the draft. But, it would not be fair to characterize any draft as a "Parcells draft, or a Jimmy Draft" unless they did most of the "selling" and everyone else just "caved" to thier wishes, which is not the case even in the Jimmy era as can be seen in the link above with the Emmitt pick.
Best Strategy, BPA or NEED?
The short answer is "Both!" Now, to show why it should always be both I will layout some ground work as to the reasoning behind that strategy and why you should never JUST say BPA, and why you should never just say NEED.
First, the grades of the players play the biggest part, so let's look at what I think is the best grading system I have seen. It is from "scouts INC." See Here.
90-100 - Rare Prospect:
Player demonstrates rare abilities and can create mismatches that have an obvious impact on the game. Is a premier college player that has all the skill to take over a game and play at a championship level. He rates in the top 5 players in the nation at his position and is considered a first round draft prospect.
80-89 - Outstanding Prospect
Player has abilities to create mismatches versus most opponents in the NFL. A feature player that has an impact on the outcome of the game. Cannot be shut down by a single player and plays on a consistent level week in and week out. He rates in the top 10 at his position and is considered a second round draft prospect.
70-79 - Solid Prospect
Still a standout player at the college level that is close to being an elite player. He has no glaring weaknesses and will usually win his individual matchups, but does not dominate in every game, especially when matched up against the top players in the country. He will usually rate in the top third of players at his position and is considered a third round draft prospect.
60-69 - Good Prospect
This player is an good starter that will give a solid effort week in and week out, but he is overmatched versus the better players in the nation. His weaknesses will be exposed against top competition. He is usually a prospect that is missing something from his game. For example, he has the size and skills to be an outstanding prospect, but lacks the speed. He will usually rate in the top half of the players at his position and is considered a middle round draft choice.
50-59 - Adequate Prospect
These are usually players that play at a high level in college, but lack some measurables or skills to play at that same level in the NFL. He may be a player that has a lot of developmental qualities, or could be a player that will contribute right away on special teams or in a situational capacity. He will usually rate in the second-third at his position and is considered a fifth round draft choice.
21-49 - Borderline Draft Prospect
These are players that teams like something about, but certainly do not have the full package in terms of NFL talent. A lot of times, teams will take chances on character players or developmental type athletes with this grade. And often, these are players that come from smaller schools or did not standout at the college level. NFL teams are looking for 'diamonds in the rough' with this type of prospect. He will usually rate in the bottom third of players at his position and will be considered a late round draft choice or un-drafted free agent.
20 - Free Agent Prospect
These are players that did not make our original 'evaluation list' but are prospects that need to be monitored. Especially in the pre-season, these players will fluctuate up and down depending on performance in their final year of eligibility.
10 - Not a legitimate Prospect
These are players that lack NFL measurables and/or skills. They are players that we feel would not even make a solid contribution as a training camp body.
Now, let's lay out a scenerio that will describe the "both" strategy. Suppose the Cowboys have the 5th pick in the draft and these are the first 7 picks and their grades, (The grades are totally bogus and are given by me to illustrate the strategy.)
Pick Player Position Grade
(1) Andrew Luck QB 99
(2) Matt Barkley QB 98
(3) Matt Kalil OT 97
(4) Justin Blackmon WR 96
(5) Trent Richardson RB 95
(6) Morris Claiborne CB 94
(7) Riley Reiff OT 93
Now, with the Cowboys having the 5th pick, and If you were strictly going by Best Player Available, and the picks came off the board in order, you would take Trent Richardson, Running back.
But if the Cowboys biggest need was at Cornerback, who would disagree with either taking Morris Claiborne with the 5th pick, or trading down one spot if you were assured he would still be there and taking him at that spot, UNLESS there was a huge drop off in grades between those picks. For example, if the best available CB was rated 80, then you would go to your next need, say the next biggest need was OT, and pick "Riley Reiff" because he is the BPA, for the teams needs. (Both Again.)
UPDATE: 11-26-11
Just to be clear. My point is that both BPG and Need should be Considered, not that they must coinside, and that it is stupid to just pick based upon need, and it is equally stupid to just pick based upon BPA. (If you had the first two picks in next years draft and you Just picked based upon BPA, then you would pick both Andrew Luck, AND Matt Barkely.
Anyway, that is my take on the "Both" strategy which is opinion, and my observations on what appears to me to be who is responsible for a draft, and that it would be the "Draft Room Team" in their Concensus, unless you would like to say the "buck stops with Jerry because he hires the Scouts and the scouting director" and that would be fair also. But if you did that then Jerry has to be given ALL credit for anything good or bad that happens with the Cowboys, and a lot of fans only want to give Jerry the "blame" for everything bad that happens, and someone else the "Credit" for anything good that happens...ie. 3 Superbowls.
Thanks for reading and I am ready to take my "daggers" and "kudos." :)
And be sure to follow my Football 101 Series:
Another user-created commentary provided by a BTB reader.
152 comments
|
22 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Great Work Coach
auto rec’d
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Nov 25, 2011 3:42 PM CST reply actions
Thanks Ironman.
And thanks again for the rec.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
Thanks,
Can I get a rec?
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
really?! haha
Tony Romo 2011's League's Most Valuable Player and 2012's Superbowl MVP
"No one gives us the right, we take it." L. ~SPN
Yep, it was meant
as a little levity there. Glad you enjoyed it.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
Oops,
Spoke too soon?
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
How do they slot guys?
i.e. how do they grade a CB vs OT? How do they make that make sense?
Ich bin ein Berliner--JFK
Great question.
What they do is they have a chart for each position and they list the top “X” number for that position and then in their meetings, they decide what the needs are and then fit that into the BPA and Need scenerio.
But make no mistake about it, each player has an Overall grade against all positions and then they rate them within their respective positions.
Let’s say you wanted an Offensive Guard and the top Guard on the board was rated an “80”, well you would wait until that player was on the board during the round in which he sould go.
It is complicated, so I hope I made sense.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
of course you would not wait on him..
A Gud team will go after the player with the highest grade for ex. Bruce carter falling into the second with a grade of 90 but u need a gaurd as you say the best one was rated at 80..Not just the guard just the whole pool of talent except carter .
You are on the clock and you pull the trigger on Carter. Because you see the value.. not just in one ot two points. But on Elite prospect vs Good prospect.
by lostar2009 on Nov 25, 2011 6:46 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
What appears to you to be Fact
Appears to another to be reasoned suppostion. Even if given first-hand experience in a circumstance, such is often the case. Not naysaying your reasoning, simply pointing out it ain’t Fact. Stringency with respect to Fact makes for a dull, unimaginative boy.
Which this wasn’t.
Cry 'Havoc!'
I couldnt agree more, and if
you notice I placed a disclaimer at the beginning saying it was not fact when I said it was just my understanding from observations and quotes, etc.
“To begin, I will qualify how and what leads me to this understanding.”
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
I always try to make sure I dont mis-lead by
qualifing as to fact versus opinion or observation/understanding.
That is what makes posting very anxious….you can get “flamed” badly when you venture to post facts and opinions if you arent clear which is which.
Some times I have to say IMHO after the fact, and it always frustrates me that I wasnt careful enough to qualify beforehand. :)
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
And Links are handy too.
I try to use links and references when possible.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
Don't be anxious
And for cr!pes sake stop worrying about what other people say about your opinions, insights and all the rest. Providing some supporting info, as you do, is a nicety I’m sure many appreciate. Whether it’s there or not, you know your reasons and reasoning. You get “flamed”, called out, thrown an alternative perspective, whatever, other than when it devolves to pure did-so/did-not contradiction, well, you’ve got your ammo. That’s the realm and beauty of debate.
You needn’t quote yourself with me, needn’t explain and point out such things as you’ve done here. I’m aware of what you wrote. My comment, as relates to Fact and supposition, was nothing more than commentary on the “…which is opinion, and my observations on what appears to me to be who is responsible for a draft…”, pointing out that those observations are also opinion. Supposition is opinion, not fact, though in those most fortunate circumstances the two, fact and supposition do overlap, allowing one to be “right”. Not to say “wrong”, simply not definitive fact.
Cry 'Havoc!'
Yep,
there is no such thing as Proof in my world. Proof is actually a conclusion.
12 jurors can look at the same evidence/facts and arrive at two different conclusions.
A person can be “proven” guilty and a year later “proven” not guilty. To “prove” merely means to “convince.”
Love your comments, always…..They are usually well thought out and often deep.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
Reality has a way of "proving" itself
Man’s opinions on such things seldom is. But, we’re learning. Hopefully.
Cry 'Havoc!'
I liked his post it was short and to the point...opinions are all we have here in case ya didn't know
by 0k on Nov 25, 2011 6:06 PM CST up reply actions
It often comes with
Old age. :)
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
Great post
And insight. At the end of the day, there is an ultimate authority – whoever holds the tiebreaking vote. And in this regard – I believe he who has the gold DOES make the rules.
Big Kudos on the BPA vs Need discussion – it doesn’t have to be either/or, reducing it to a strict adherence is silly because it ignores context, impact and likely an entire slew of factors I can’t even name.
Not counting injuries, since last season DAL has replaced Starters at on the following units:
- O(5) – 3 OL, 1 RB, 1 WR.
- D(3) – 1DL, 1 ILB, 1S
- ST(1) – K
Likely DAL will replace 2 Starters on the OL, 1 on the DL, a CB, an ILB and a S. Big turnover for a single offseason. Reading the tea leaves – Ryan really seems to like Spencer and with Marty B the devil you know may be better than the devil you don’t. With so many other, critical needs, don’t be surprised to see them return. Many will not like this, but they are way down the list of priorities.
I don't make mistakes...just understandable bad choices
I agree
I think a balance of BPA and need is the best way to go
this year should be interesting because of the needs on OL DL pass rusher secondary, we could really go either way
Bruce Carter+Sean Lee=BRUCE LEE!!!!
RDD=REAL DEAL DEMARCO!!!!
by Archie Barberio on Nov 25, 2011 6:08 PM CST reply actions
Three Questions:
1. How did Dallas manage to end up with zero running back pedigree after the most significant running back draft in NFL history (Jones, Choice)?
2. WTF happened to allow the expensive move up to get Spencer?
3. Dallas recognized early the value of the two tight end offensive formation; how come Dallas has been unable to find an elite prospect to pair next to Witten (see the Patriots who landed Hernandez and Gronkowski in the same draft)?
Spencer didnt cost that much to move up honestly and we don’t draft TE’s often, last one was John Phillips who was actually a good pick and that was a late pick
we drafted that cornball Martellus though, I am still hating that draft pick over Finley
Bruce Carter+Sean Lee=BRUCE LEE!!!!
RDD=REAL DEAL DEMARCO!!!!
by Archie Barberio on Nov 25, 2011 6:14 PM CST up reply actions
We Did Too Pay
through the nose to move up to get Spencer. Look it up.
I dont have to look it up
it was like a 2nd a 3rd and a 5th, and we had multiple picks after the trade with Cleveland
they just drafted the wrong player, but to move back into the first like that really didn’t cost us too much in the future because we had multiple picks from another trade
Bruce Carter+Sean Lee=BRUCE LEE!!!!
RDD=REAL DEAL DEMARCO!!!!
by Archie Barberio on Nov 25, 2011 6:48 PM CST up reply actions
do you remember the exact picks Chia?
as in the # the pick was?(51st 108Th ETC)
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Nov 25, 2011 6:56 PM CST up reply actions
not off hand no
Bruce Carter+Sean Lee=BRUCE LEE!!!!
RDD=REAL DEAL DEMARCO!!!!
by Archie Barberio on Nov 25, 2011 7:40 PM CST up reply actions
The Fact
. . . we had extra picks is irrelevant to the price paid.
Yeah, whatever...
On both sides of the debate. Who’s to say what the pick or picks would have been, how they would have panned out or not, how much woulda/coulda/shoulda would be done in whatever alternate reality each side’s talking about. It ain’t this Reality. You work with what ya got.
And that’s reality.
Cry 'Havoc!'
actually
we Barely Over paid…
We got the 26th pick (worth 700points)
We gave up the 36th,78th, and the 150th(i presume, as I couldn’t find the exact 5th round pick we gave up)
which totals 726.4 points….so we over paid by 26.4 points (to put that in context, 5th pick 6th round, #165)…..that is not bad considering it was a division rival AND we didn’t give up a future first rounder
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Nov 25, 2011 7:31 PM CST up reply actions
I agree
they just took the wrong OLB thats all, it was a pretty fair deal
Bruce Carter+Sean Lee=BRUCE LEE!!!!
RDD=REAL DEAL DEMARCO!!!!
by Archie Barberio on Nov 25, 2011 7:41 PM CST up reply actions
The Chart Is
relatively worthless these day, is it not?
I think it still has value.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
It is still used by all teams as the base guide for trades
Just because pay scales have changed it does not change the point value for each draft slot.
You have to play this game like somebody just hit your mother with a two-by-four. Dan Birdwell. Oakland Raiders
How do you want to be rememberd. Go out there and play every play like it is your last play. Be remembered as the person you want to be for the rest of your life. Spike Dykes, Midland Lee and Texas Tech Coach.
its still used, but it depends
Bruce Carter+Sean Lee=BRUCE LEE!!!!
RDD=REAL DEAL DEMARCO!!!!
by Archie Barberio on Nov 25, 2011 9:35 PM CST up reply actions
Draft picks traded for Spencer pick
36th, 87th, and 159th
thanks Requiem
so that means that Dallas actually only overpaid by 23.8 points or the value of the #172 pick…….
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Nov 26, 2011 4:02 PM CST up reply actions
So,
we had a rather high second, and moved up into the bottom of the first, and paid a thrid and a five? And we for that got Spencer? We was raped and pillaged.
and Spencer at the time was looked on as a good pick....
hindsight =20/20
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Nov 25, 2011 7:32 PM CST up reply actions
at first yeah it looked great
I still wanted Woodley but Spencer did look like a good pick at the time
Bruce Carter+Sean Lee=BRUCE LEE!!!!
RDD=REAL DEAL DEMARCO!!!!
by Archie Barberio on Nov 25, 2011 7:42 PM CST up reply actions
I hated the Spencer pick as much as I hated the Felix pick.
I flat out blew up at both picks. I go to the AOL football chatroom every draft. Have been for 10 years now. I blasted both picks and Cowboy fans were telling me to calm down and I didn’t know what I was talkiing about. LOL. Now they see.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Nov 25, 2011 8:16 PM CST up reply actions
Felix Sure Looked
heavy and slow against the fish; is he done?
i didn't care for the felix pick either
i had watched alot of arkansas games when felix and mcfadden were in the same backfield. arkansas ran alot of gimmick plays with both split in the backfield. the qb would fake a pitch to mcfadden, then turn and pitch it to felix. of course felix would have plenty of running room usually. he never had to get the tough yards like murray gets now.
dont tell me lammar woodley was available
That just makes it hurt that much worse.
by matt575 on Nov 25, 2011 10:20 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
not only was he available
but if they had decided against trading up they could have had in the 2nd round and kept the extra picks.
by Alan Smithee on Nov 27, 2011 12:11 PM CST up reply actions
I remember thinking
man we just traded up with a division rival to get a pass rusher? that shocked me
Bruce Carter+Sean Lee=BRUCE LEE!!!!
RDD=REAL DEAL DEMARCO!!!!
by Archie Barberio on Nov 25, 2011 7:43 PM CST up reply actions
They
. . . must have laughing their butts off silly as their booty received for our selection of pedestrian Spencer.
Becasue they could see into the future?
Or because you can now look at it with the perfect clarity of hindsight?
This is the same scenario everyone plays with Rom when he has a bad game – he’s not Brady, Manning, Brees. Guess what – he’s not them either when he has a great game. And Spencer isn’t Woodley or even worse, D Ware. By constantly comparing a player to the best in the game, the discussion becomes more Fantasy than real football.
Decisions, like plays, get made in real time anticipating, not knowing what happens next. It’s called a calculated risk. Errors of commission are largely preferable to errors of omission. Maybe we should be we be more like CLE and CIN.
I don't make mistakes...just understandable bad choices
Sure It Is Hindsight
. . . it does not change the analysis. This fanpost Understanding . . . raises process and strategy in drafting. Dallas rushed up several picks – at a high price – to try (I am guessing) to find a compliment to Ware. Better to stay put and take the BPA. I recall the we almost did the same thing – with Martellus. The post draft press was full of serious commmentary that Jerry had to be chained and gagged to keep from moving up to make sure Dallas snagged Bennett, instead of waiting until the bottom of round two – where of course he was still available. Dallas is where it is in the heirarchy of NFL teams over the last 15 years due to terrible drafting. It appears to be better but only of late.
But when you said....
Better to stay put and take the BPA.
…
What if you had the #1, and #2 picks in this next draft, would you take Andrew Luck at #1, AND then turn around and stay put and take the BPA, Matt Barkley? I dont think anyone would do that, so it goes back to take the best player that fits your needs IF THEY ARE VERY CLOSE in terms of grade.
Now, to be clear, the main point that I am making is that as a general rule, NEVER JUST use BPA, and NEVER JUST use NEED, BOTH must be considered.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
by CoachGary on Nov 26, 2011 9:51 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
yes I would.
You can always trade away one of the QBs
by Jonathan Stern on Nov 26, 2011 2:27 PM CST up reply actions
The best trade value is
usually during the draft, so you would more than likely trade down and get the more value than if you take him and teams know you have to get rid of him.
So, the point is still valid, in that you want to consider Need and get the most picks for that 2nd pick and then you are getting the most value.
But, I do see your point.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
thats beacuse you dont ubderstand what bpa means
Concivably wr’s could be the highest rated positions on the board 5 years in a row. You DONT DRAFT 5 WRS. You look at Your board and you look ay YOUR NEEDS unless their is a DRASTIC difference in grade you lock up the highest rated player in accordance with need. If there is a prospect with a SUBSTANTIALY higher grade than others that may fit “needs” then you start talking about value selections.
by Proxy406 on Nov 27, 2011 10:02 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
this was in reference to sterns comments
by Proxy406 on Nov 27, 2011 10:36 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Well said!
I couldnt agree more.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
Concivably wr’s could be the highest rated positions on the board 5 years in a row. You DONT DRAFT 5 WRS.
Matt Millen says otherwise
Lifelong Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
My Beer Blog: http://tiltingsuds.wordpress.com/
I would love to show you the finer points to a muay thai clinch whipped knee to the face seanrude
by matt575 on Nov 22, 2011 3:09 AM EST
I absolutely would take either of those QBs
And then I’d trade one of them for Dominique Rogers Cromartie.
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
"Meanwhile, like a bitter wine, Philadelphia’s jealousy fermented in the dark cellars of pride and resentment. With no playoff hopes of their own, Eagles fans turned towards hating the Cowboys." Steve Sabol, NFL films
draft both and then trade them
I am sure you could get at least 2-3 draft picks plus a player for each….
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Nov 26, 2011 4:05 PM CST up reply actions
Exactly, the point was
you wouldnt pick both players and then miss out on getting the most value which is when teams are emotionally bought in to get “Their” guy and then pick the rest of their draft knowing what they need.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
No Disagreement on the
BPA and Need debate. My point is that Dallas way over estimated the talent of Spencer, and this error likly was caused by a focus on Need. This is a far different point than the BPA and Need debate, and, again I think you are mostly dead on with respect to your view on this issue is a two sided coin. Remember when Aikman went on a world tour to find a TE and we ended up with a garbage pick? Again, when the focus is on need, for whatever reason, problems develop. I supose this makes your point.
Yep,
It makes my point. You example of David LaFluer is a perfect one of focusing JUST on NEED, and not considering Both and the goal in the end has to be VALUE.
Now, if LaFluer was graded where they picked and they didnt “reach” for him, then both were considered.
The NEED mistake is often called correctly, a reach pick. That is when the NEED only pick can be most apparent.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
Love the work Gary:
Breaks it down simply and yet shows the give and take within the process. I’m certain that the availability of FAs and depth of the draft at a certain position would also play into the drafting conversation. Keep it up. rec.
Great work, BTW
rec’d . . . any quality work on the draft is mucho appreciated. Thanks.
Good work Coach, but
When the scouts, scouting department along with the football operations folks with the Cowboys put together the final grades they do not use the simple 0 to 100 grading system. the grades are broken down into 3 parts.
1. The first number is the summation grade. In the case of a rare prospect the summations are 9A001 to 9A002. The 9A is the rare ability indicator, the first 0 is the total critical factor grade, the second 0 is the average specific position skills grade is the position specific projection with 1 being the ability to perform at a Probowl level at their position for 5+ years and a 2 for 3+ years.
2. The second set of numbers are the 7 critical factors. These are confirmed speed, play speed, QAB (Quickness, Agility, Balance), Competitor, Character, Mental Alertness and strength/explosion. A rare would need to posses all 7 critical factors.
3. The third set of numbers are the position specific skills and are graded on a scale of 0 to 10 for each skill. A rare ability would need to grade a 9 or better for each skill.
You have to play this game like somebody just hit your mother with a two-by-four. Dan Birdwell. Oakland Raiders
How do you want to be rememberd. Go out there and play every play like it is your last play. Be remembered as the person you want to be for the rest of your life. Spike Dykes, Midland Lee and Texas Tech Coach.
by Birddog26 on Nov 25, 2011 7:58 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Great stuff there Birddog....
Birdog26.
Say, can you, or anyone find out what the teams that are using the “White 80” signal call during the snap count means?
I think the color “White” may have something to do with formation and/or blocking assignments because I heard Tony on one occasion say….“Brown 80”, (or was it Orange), and saw a shift if my memory serves me.
BTW, just on a side note, the Cowboys are not the only team that uses the “White 89” call.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
err.....White 80 not 89....
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
The color is coverage and the number is blocking scheme.
The color and number designations can change season to season or mid season to keep defenses from learning your calls.
You have to play this game like somebody just hit your mother with a two-by-four. Dan Birdwell. Oakland Raiders
How do you want to be rememberd. Go out there and play every play like it is your last play. Be remembered as the person you want to be for the rest of your life. Spike Dykes, Midland Lee and Texas Tech Coach.
Thanks. I figured you
might be the one to answer that question.
much grass.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
No problem
That is what the Cowboys use it for. Other teams such as the Pats use the color as a live play/audible call with the number being another play and others use the color for the snap count change at the line and number for protection/blocking scheme. Just depends on which team you talk about.
You have to play this game like somebody just hit your mother with a two-by-four. Dan Birdwell. Oakland Raiders
How do you want to be rememberd. Go out there and play every play like it is your last play. Be remembered as the person you want to be for the rest of your life. Spike Dykes, Midland Lee and Texas Tech Coach.
You mean the Pats dont yell out Kill KIll?
LOL just kidding kinda.
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Nov 26, 2011 1:23 PM CST up reply actions
There are several that
use the “KILL, KILL”. The Giants are one if my memory serves me.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
Coach nothing beats when LSU was playing Auburn....
Auburn uses pictures of presidents. When one of the Auburn players held up a pic of Obama Verne Lundquist without hesitation said “I guess that means they will run left”. I fell out of my chair. LOL
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Nov 25, 2011 8:19 PM CST up reply actions
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
One reason I cant watch Nascar….Perpetual Left turns….
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
Thanks for the compliment.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
Great Post
I guess the whole concensus took 2009 draft off then lol
Billion dollar dream and hundred dollar nightmares
Yep, since it is a concensus, the
whole “Draft Room Team” blew that draft for sure.
Only McGee and Butler were of any consequence.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
The problem was not in the consensus but in the draft goals
Draft goals are set by the Head Coach, Owner and Director of Player Personnel early in the process and was a break from the normal way a draft is done. The major flaw was that there was a choice instead of drafting starters, potential starters and this was what the scouting department focused on. This was something Wade wanted and Jerry was sold on it to. This gave us a draft with a very low potential for any starters, but guys who could fill in and play ST. Jones learned his lesson and Garrett started exerting his influence in the 2010 draft with the RKG philosophy.
You have to play this game like somebody just hit your mother with a two-by-four. Dan Birdwell. Oakland Raiders
How do you want to be rememberd. Go out there and play every play like it is your last play. Be remembered as the person you want to be for the rest of your life. Spike Dykes, Midland Lee and Texas Tech Coach.
Right Kind of Guy
You have to play this game like somebody just hit your mother with a two-by-four. Dan Birdwell. Oakland Raiders
How do you want to be rememberd. Go out there and play every play like it is your last play. Be remembered as the person you want to be for the rest of your life. Spike Dykes, Midland Lee and Texas Tech Coach.
I agree completely!
If the draft goals going in is to pick special teamers and not to find starters….then all bets are off, because then the premise is a wrong premise. I remember hearing Jerry say that he will never do that again. When we had a roster full of realy, really good players and we were winning Superbowls, Jerry thought that drafting starters that would just sit was a bad idea when we were lacking guys that could fill the needs of Special Teams and be contributing more to the team.
Good point!
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
One of the other problems is that JJ allows his coaches to
overrule his scouts. A terrific example is the Jason WIlliams pick. The scouts didn’t have him particularly high, but Wade said he “saw something” in him, so they overdrafted him.
If Garrett does anything right its that, with his dad being a scout, he listens to the scouts and respects the board that they set up.
Wade still had to
“Sell it”, and Jerry might have fought for his idea, but everything in life “must be sold.”
If you want to take your wife to the movies, but she wants to go shopping, it has to be sold. If you want to convince your boss of an idea, it must be sold.
I have heard Jerry, (or read Jerry), say that if he has an idea, he will dump it if he cant sell it, because if the idea is any good, it should be easily sold.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
Then I have some stuff in my garage that I want to see Jerry
If a dumbass like Wade can sell a mediocre LB from a small school who is projecting to a different position, then I can sell him anything.
LOL!!
You know what they say, the easiest sell is to a salesman…. :)
Jerry has said that he made a mistake by letting the Coaches have too much weight in the board positioning, but you could very well be right that this is one of those times where Jerry let Wade have too much say, but you do realize that the perception of Jerry is that the coaches have NO say, but I dont buy that, Jerry listens and again, you may indeed be right.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
After the 2009 debacle Garrett had a lot more say in the draft
After the season Garrett along with Stephon Jones and Tom Ciskowski were able to install the 7 critical factors (the RKG factor)as part of the draft grade process. There is also many meetings after the season where the scouts sit down with Garrett, JJ, Stephon, Ciskowski and the position coaches and review the detailed scout package for all prospects and they review every snap taken by the prospect. This is process is completed before the combine. as a scout you own that grade you gave the prospect and that grade needs to stand up under review now. This allows them to place more trust in the scouts and makes it less about a coaches or JJ’s pet cats.
You have to play this game like somebody just hit your mother with a two-by-four. Dan Birdwell. Oakland Raiders
How do you want to be rememberd. Go out there and play every play like it is your last play. Be remembered as the person you want to be for the rest of your life. Spike Dykes, Midland Lee and Texas Tech Coach.
by Birddog26 on Nov 26, 2011 2:53 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Great point!
You certianlly bring a lot to these discussions and I am all ears when you speak!
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
And the Jury
. . . is way far from any decision on McGee. I personally don’t like the guy. Dallas is sure betting a whole bunch of chips on his development; the only saving grace is that I suppose Redball knows talent when he sees it; but I expect Dallas to make a major move to find new blood behind Romo, and this year ASAP
Well Coach, I have to disagree
BPA vs Need. They shouldn’t be choices so much as they should be options that occur in sequence…
The 1st goal should always be drafting for NEED. Ultimately, the highest rated player at a position of need should be of a value either equal to or higher than the pick. In your above example, if the Boys are picking at 5 and their needs are QB, WR or OT and ANY" of the top 4 rated prospects are still availabe at 5, the pick is easy. There really is no reason to seek a trade.
Now, let’s say the Boys are still picking at 5 and their needs are QB, OLB and FS. If Luck and Barkely are both gone, then Claiborne makes some sense ONLY if you have a plan to move one of the existing CBs on the team to FS or if you project Claiborne himself to FS. Otherwise, drafting someone in that spots makes less sense than trading down. So, that should be the strategy.
Here’s where it gets tricky . . . The Boys would then need to look at their board and figure where the next best prospect that fits their needs is projected to be picked. Let’s say there’s a QB at 15; how far should they trade down? That is a crapshoot because even if there are no teams between pick 5 and pick 15 that need a QB, another team that does could always trade up (this is the same reason why some GMs have a trade UP strategy more then trade DOWN).
But, I digress – let’s say the Boys decide to trade down to 10 as that provides the best value in terms of trading. Once there, they can either wait to 10 to pick or move up if the suspect another QB seeking team will do the same. For the purposes of this example, let’s say they stay at 10 and the QB they like, Robert Griffin III, is available. The pick is obvious.
But, there should NEVER be a situation where the Boys “settle” for the best player available without a plan. That plan probably involves a trade…if the Boys don’t have a prospect that fits a need at 5 and they don’t like the value offered for their pick, then picking up Trent Richardson makes the most sense (and that’s only if they can work the phones and get a prospective suitor for him).
So, if the Boys don’t have a prospect that fits a need somewhere close (1 or 2 slots) to where they are picking and they don’t the trading down scenarios aren’t appealing (and the trading the next BPA isn’t worked out before hand), then actually REACHING for a player of need is better than BPA.
by Tyrone Jenkins on Nov 25, 2011 10:45 PM CST reply actions
I agree and disagree with what you said
Picking in the top 5 as you outlined can be risky. With the new CBA the risk is limited. For the upcoming draft I would rank Luck as the number 1 pick with a grade of 9A791. That would be a grade higher than any player I have seen since I do not know when. To put it in perspective, he could be a superstar on a championship team from game 1 of his first year.
Claiborne I am not willing yet to put him top 5 yet. But to your point, The need versus BPA is not cut and dry. If this season say you need a center. There is 1 late round center available and maybe 2 in the second.
So if you are picking at 5 like you say, do you give up a guy rated to achieve 3 to 5+ Probowls at his position and give you a franchise player for another player who will start in his first year but may not give you the top 1 to 3 performance over the course of his career. This while taking a Pats approach at bringing in older players to play roles.
Case in point with the Cowboys, what if Newman was given a 3 year deal as the number 3 corner. Not the starter but he will get 20 or so snaps and drafting a potential ProBowl corner along with Scandrick.
You have to play this game like somebody just hit your mother with a two-by-four. Dan Birdwell. Oakland Raiders
How do you want to be rememberd. Go out there and play every play like it is your last play. Be remembered as the person you want to be for the rest of your life. Spike Dykes, Midland Lee and Texas Tech Coach.
As I said there
are always exceptions. The more correct answer that I didnt articulate very well, is Both AND “it all depends”, because there will be times when you wont follow the “Both” rule, but when you look at it afterwords, you may find that you did in a certian way. Because case in point
“what if Newman was given a 3 year deal as the number 3 corner. Not the starter but he will get 20 or so snaps and drafting a potential ProBowl corner along with Scandrick”….this is affecting your needs….and you better make the “Best Player Available” pick because of it.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
Every team has more than 1 need
If a teams’ greatest need is C and they’re picking at 5, they are most likely also picking at 37 (2nd round). Pick up the C there…
Coach, the above Newman scenario is interesting. If he can be “convinced” to take slot CB $$, then that’s a great deal. He could fill in for the #1 or 2 CBs in case of injury, he already knows the plays and he’s still probably the best CB on the team. Dallas already committed to Scandrick as a #1 or 2 CB so that’s a good move.
If that were to happen, the Boys really don’t need a CB but coudl still “use” one – probably a 3rd or 4th rounder. But to spend a 1st rd pick on a position that has guys signed to long time deals . . .
by Tyrone Jenkins on Nov 26, 2011 8:30 AM CST up reply actions
Again,
You seem to be saying DONT use BPA as the ONLY reason, and DONT use NEED as the only reason, and if I am not mistaken, that is my point as well.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
I guess that's another way of saying
that true BPA and NEED rarely co-exist. So yes, I guess we’re saying the same thing.
This year, the Boys needs will be CB/S, DE, OG and KR/PR. Maybe even OLB depending on how they view Butler and/or Spencer is resigned. Picking in the 20s will probably mean selecting a CB, OG or OLB (elite/combo 3-4 DEs probably will be gone and the best S this year is a 2nd round pick).
by Tyrone Jenkins on Nov 26, 2011 2:25 PM CST up reply actions
When you said
next best prospect that fits their needs
You were saying “Both”, so we do agree.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
If you noticed I gave
the example of if the next best player of need is only rated an “80” and the next best player of need is an OT that is rated at “93”, then you take him. So, I covered your exact example and we agree.
You have to be flexible, and draft the “BPA that BEST fits your needs”…..both.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
oops...."example of the
next best player of need….etc….etc….
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
And, to further give evidence that it is not BPA
is the exact example I gave with the BPA on the board is another RB, when clearly he would not be better than a guy that had lets say, the same grade in the draft but Scouts INC had him rated slightly lower in “Value” terms, you would take the NEED pick because he was the same grade or just slightly lower than a pick that would be a duplicate.
Another example: If you picked Troy Aikman and a couple of years later you give him a new 8 year 100 million dollar contract, and because of a trade two years previous, you are picking first and the best pick in the draft is a QB, would you trade him, pick him, or pick the NEXT best player because of NEED. I think the answer is you dont pick the BPA, but as almost always if not always you do both. JMHO.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
Ah but contrar
Best player available is exactly that. It’s the ONE player at the top of the board when it’s a team’s time to pick. If that one player isn’t a need, then drafting both isn’t possible. Even if the player of need is within the 1st couple of prospects at the top of the teams board.
How often does that really happen? I think Tyron Smith was a BPA and Need pick as I think the Boys had him higher than 9. Smith was a definitive need in that Colombo was unserviceable. Carter might have been thought to be a BPA but ILB wasn’t an IMMEDIATE need. Brooking and James were on the downhill, but certainly weren’t as bad as Colombo. Plus, Carter was a risk due to the injury – he still hasn’t played significant minutes. So, as far as THIS year goes, Carter wasn’t a need.
Same for Murray. Arkin and Nagy were even though they were later picks in that the teams needs dictated that.
BPA and need only occur simultaneously if both the prospect and the TRUE immediate need coincide.
by Tyrone Jenkins on Nov 26, 2011 8:38 AM CST up reply actions
I think my
examples speak for themselves, and my argument was BPA should notbe what is used, and neither should NEED be the only thing.
I dont think you are saying JUST use BPA, and your not saying JUST use NEED, and if I am right then we are saying the same thing. Both must be considered.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
Let me say it this way....
I am not saying that need and BPA have to occur at the same time, (coincide), merely saying that both must be considered.
Make more sense now?
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
One thing that's not being discussed her is BPA shifts considerably after the first round.
In the example used, picking at 5, all the grades are roughly the same, so there is guaranteed to be a cluster of players with roughly the same grades available.
By the time the third round rolls around, however, a team stacked at, say, WR, might find a wideout with a low first round grade. Then, the “BPA vs. need” philosophy must be clearer: you can’t have a “both” situation.
In that case, I’d argue, you must select the BPA, even if you don;t need a player at the position, because he’ll make your team stronger down the road.
Great point.
If all I get accross in this post is to insure people get that the idea of people saying….“We will pick the BPA”….is just silly, and saying that any team goes into the draft with the other…“We will pick based on need”, or when an broadcaster says, “Well they went for need this draft”, it is just as silly…..
The draft is always based on Both, although maybe not every pick because some picks may have both coniside and others both were considered and they picked the BPA after considering that Need wasnt a factor, as in your example.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
Now that sir
I will agree with.
But, let me ask you and rr a question:
Was Tyron Smith a BPA pick or a need pick or both? How about Carter, Murray, Harris, Arkin and Chapas? How would you characterise UDFA signings – BPA or need?
I would contend that a team gets its GREATEST value when the best prospect available is just the guy to fit the needs of a position on the team. At all other times, you are either drafting BPA, reaching for a need or trading.
by Tyrone Jenkins on Nov 26, 2011 2:33 PM CST up reply actions
Yep,
We were in agreement all along, I just wasnt as clear as I should have been.
And I agee with you that best value is when BPA and NEED coinside. Well done.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
I think
Tyron was a both, and Carter might have been a both, but Murray was definately a BPA, IMHO.
In the later rounds, it becomes harder and harder to tell because most of them have about the same grade for the most part.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
I would argue that Murray was need also
I would imagine that the drafting of Murray was the final straw that caused the release of Barber….
then Arkin +Nagy were Bigg’s final straw
so probably Dwayne Harris and Josh Thomas were the only true “Pure BPA picks”
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Nov 26, 2011 6:51 PM CST up reply actions
Yet there were many undrafted free agents out perform....
Harris and Thomas.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Nov 26, 2011 8:33 PM CST up reply actions
OK Coach
I think we are saying the same thing…
by Tyrone Jenkins on Nov 26, 2011 9:23 PM CST up reply actions
UDFA's have performed well under a new draft philosophy
When Garrett imposed his will in the 2010 draft the results have been very good with both drafted palyers and UDFA’s. I think the RKG or 7 Critical has the most to do with it.
You have to play this game like somebody just hit your mother with a two-by-four. Dan Birdwell. Oakland Raiders
How do you want to be rememberd. Go out there and play every play like it is your last play. Be remembered as the person you want to be for the rest of your life. Spike Dykes, Midland Lee and Texas Tech Coach.
Yep, good point.
And, if the strategy is to consider both BPA and Need when you pick, I think the goal of each draft is to get the best
value, which includes the trading strategy, the UDF’s that are expected to be available, etc.
And to your point about the “trade chart” still being very valuable, I agee 100% because it is the best tool we have to see that value.
Of course we usually dont know if the value was truely there until about 3 years later.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
I know this isnt an actual mock draft discussion as far as players go, but...
I was reading through some mock drafts, and someone had the cowboys drafting lamichael James in the 3rd round. I think we all consider Felix Jones to be chopped liver at this point, and so although this would mean we would likely have to address some of our needs in FA after the draft, I would LOVE to have lamichael as a cowboy. His size is the only reason he is projected as a 3rd rounder, that and some injury history. But as we all know, Dallas has no issue drafting players that are talented with a history of injuries. Just think about how dangerous a demarco lamichael tandem could be with lj as a Felix 2.0
by matt575 on Nov 25, 2011 11:54 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Fun post
thanks
Tony Romo 2011's League's Most Valuable Player and 2012's Superbowl MVP
"No one gives us the right, we take it." L. ~SPN
I dont know a whole lot about defensive players in this years draft
except for morris claiborne and the other dbs from LSU just because they look so athletic and ballhawky. but does anyone know if it would be possible to get quinten coples? DE from unc, we need de help and hed be playing with bruce carter and that would be pretty cool
Anything is possible.
“Do or do not there is no try”
by Jonathan Stern on Nov 26, 2011 8:20 PM CST up reply actions
Rec'd great write up Coach
Keep em coming man you do really well expressin your opinion in a clear and easy to understand way.
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
For the record
Jimmy Johnson didn’t want Emmit Smith or Michael Irvin
“But Wooten remembers the eldest scout, Walt Yowarsky, “all but standing up on the table and saying, ‘This kid broke every high-school rushing record in Florida. He can catch, he can block, and I’ve yet to see him get caught from behind. All he does is make yards. You have to take him.’”
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=bayless/050211
Landry and Tex drafted Irvin. Jimmy had nothing to do with irvin being drafted by Dallas.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Nov 26, 2011 8:27 PM CST up reply actions
Yep, before Hershell Walker was discussed and recommended as
the one to trade to get a bunch of picks, Michael Irvin was the traid bait that Jimmy wanted.
Al Davis actually talked Jimmy out of persuing that idea. Jimmy gets the credit for coming up with the concept of trading the teams best player for multiple draft picks, but Jimmy and Jerry both worked the phones trying to find a taker.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
When it came to drafting Dez.....
I gurantee u Jerry said " Jerry u love star players u need to draft him" then Jerry said “sold”. Turns to the other staff members and says it’s Dez , Jerry said.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
LOL!
That is funny, but it is the preception about him. However, It isnt as bad as people make out based upon those around him and those that have worked for him.
Jerry is very aware of the perception around him, and is overly cautious about forcing his will on those he has hired to give their input. If someone is timid and unsure of himself, then Jerry will probably run over him, (Dave Campo), but strong willed and self-assured people, like Jason Garrett, Jimmy Johnson and Bill Parcells, are and were not afraid to tell it like it is. And truth be known, Jerry loves people to stand up to him and values their input more than any others.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
Here are a couple of links
that describe what really happens as far as whether Jerry lets his coaches coach.
But the misconception about Jerry is that he doesn’t listen to the coach and just does whatever he wants. Nothing is further from the truth. Jerry actually listens to the coach and abides by most of his decisions. The coach just has to be strong enough to tell him what to do.
JJ Taylor Quote:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/dallas-cowboys/headlines/20110119-taylor-why-new-defensive-coordinator-rob-ryan’s-priorities-must-be-fixing-anthony-spencer-mike-jenkins.ece
=================================
@tuck2020: With this weekend’s cuts, there’s more proof how pathetic the 2009 draft was. When will Jerry Jones stay out of football decisions? Jason Garrett was hired only because he a yes man, a patsy.
Nick: Yes, the 2009 draft was bad. Twelve picks and only four guys are still here and none of them are starters. As for the Garrett stuff, that can be your opinion. There isn’t a coach alive that doesn’t listen to his GM and/or owner. If he doesn’t, he doesn’t stick around long.
Rob: Garrett has had influence in every major decision since he became head coach. That’s a fact. If a coach is assertive with his ideas and his vision on things, Jerry will listen. Is Jones involved in decisions as GM? Of course. But he leans on others more than people think. He didn’t pick the entire 2009 draft, which has been an overall bust, by himself. And Stephen Jones is gradually taking over the team’s day-to-day operations.
http://www.dallascowboys.com/news/mailbag.cfm?id=3B5FD41D-F110-349C-6A4169E2011AEBF2
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
You could not be more further from the point.
Dez scored strong on skills and when the RKG test was put to the test, Dez scored 6 out of 7. He did get dinged for Maturity in the Character portion of the draft grade, but it was felt a manageable level. The only slight break was in his draft grade and not starting him his first year.
You have to play this game like somebody just hit your mother with a two-by-four. Dan Birdwell. Oakland Raiders
How do you want to be rememberd. Go out there and play every play like it is your last play. Be remembered as the person you want to be for the rest of your life. Spike Dykes, Midland Lee and Texas Tech Coach.
Agree, the scouts had a lot
of influence on that pick because they had him rated in the top 10, which means that in this case he was not only the BPA, but he filled the goal of each draft by getting the most value as well.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
With the Boys scouts Dez did not have a top 10 grade.
I will say he had a top 20 grade.
You have to play this game like somebody just hit your mother with a two-by-four. Dan Birdwell. Oakland Raiders
How do you want to be rememberd. Go out there and play every play like it is your last play. Be remembered as the person you want to be for the rest of your life. Spike Dykes, Midland Lee and Texas Tech Coach.
LOL, and not with the
Girl Scouts either!
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
damn
we should have traded up for Demariyus Thomas
fiddlesticks
Bruce Carter+Sean Lee=BRUCE LEE!!!!
RDD=REAL DEAL DEMARCO!!!!
by Archie Barberio on Nov 27, 2011 12:12 AM CST up reply actions
He was 12th...
Lee was 14th, Bowman was 20th, and Alualu was 22nd….
Great job by the scouting staff on identifying talent….
Lee and Bowman look like studs, while Alualu has regressed some….
Requiem, Great job on decyphering (sp?)
that draft board and great post as well. Kudos!
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
IMO it isn’t as black and white as need or no need, it’s how much of a need the particular position is. For example Murray was a need, but not an urgent one. Tyron was a huge need, Carter was a decent need.
Tell me one analyst or poster that said RB was even a 1 in a million need before the start of the season, let alone the draft.
There were many that said Barber needed to go, but all said Jones was the answer with Choice as the #2 and we needed a UDFA as a third choice. Find any specifics that pointed to a RB that would be drafted that high. Murray was a Garrett RKG pick, no if. and or buts, and he was right. He outsmarted us all on this along with his scouts.
You have to play this game like somebody just hit your mother with a two-by-four. Dan Birdwell. Oakland Raiders
How do you want to be rememberd. Go out there and play every play like it is your last play. Be remembered as the person you want to be for the rest of your life. Spike Dykes, Midland Lee and Texas Tech Coach.
Yep, couldnt agree
more. Most fans and analysts said it was a dumb pick because of who we had.
However, the strategy was that Barber had “pis..ed” off Garrett with some dress code violations in direct confrontation to Garrett, and the philosophy is, and was, to always have three quality RB’s because of the history of injuries at that position and because of the lack of longevity there as well.
Jason, the Scouts, and Jerry deserve Kudo’s for sure. That pick was one that I was hoping we would take, but thinking there was no way.
When it happened, it had me dancing around my living room with two of my grand kids giving me funny looks!
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
I'm not so sure
I think this pick speaks volumes to what they thought about the current RB’s on the roster. They thought Choice was a JAG and a malcontent, they thought Felix was only a complimentary back, and thought Barber was overpaid and past his prime. You don’t draft a player in the third round unless you envision them as a starter, even if that’s not always the way it turns out. The fact that analysts and posters didn’t see RB as a need I think can be explained by the fact that not many people knew how little Choice would fit in with what Garrett wants to do, what with the whole RKG thing. Again, this is just me reading the tea leaves but this is my opinion and why I think RB was a bigger need heading into the draft in the Cowboys eye’s than most people realised.
Good point, and after thinking about it more,
that was Choice that was disrespectful instead of Barber, but anyway you are probably right.
I have always been high on Felix, but when I saw video on Murray prior to the draft…..wow!
And I was never sold on Barber as I like my backs to have the ability to be fast enough to break them all the way at any minute and Barber was just not that guy. Now, Felix on the other hand, I have been behind thinking….“if he can just figure out how to fall so he can stay healthy, we may have something special here”….You cant win them all, I guess.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
Barber and his superbowl dance for a 2 yard gain.
Felix and his worthless contributions.
I wanted a bellcow badly. I got a lot of opposition to my want. Now people here see the difference having a bellcow makes. I didn’t think Murray would be that guy. For that I am glad I was mistaken.
Felix being the worst back in a rb draft selected in the first round still pisses me off. That is the kind of pick that has made this team mediocre.
Garrett having such influence with the Felix pick disturbs me. You can overdo the rkg thing.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
Yea, but the pick
of Murray is also a Garrett pick as well. So, Garrett isnt perfect which I can handle because he has done so much in all areas.
The Patriots have not drafted well in several years. The genious has been striking out now for a long while. We have a playoff win more recently than they do and their defense is horrible.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
Ikr
Isn’t his specialty supposed to be defense as well?
Yep, he is a top 5 defensive coordinator,
but his failure in the drafts probably say more about who they have in their scouting department than anything.
Without him, I dont think Parcells has a Superbowl on his resume.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
Of course he does. Bill was lucky. Most of that team was in place when he got there.
I think he is one of the most overrated coaches in the history of the nfl. Brady made BB. It wasn’t th eother way around. Still look at the d they had. It wasn’t like Bill was a draft master.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Nov 27, 2011 8:40 AM CST up reply actions
Brady made Bill?
Why were they successful without Brady? Maybe they are just a perfect fit for each other. Brady defn is only above avg with any other coach and team.
Tony Romo 2011's League's Most Valuable Player and 2012's Superbowl MVP
"No one gives us the right, we take it." L. ~SPN
I think the power should
be where it is in Dallas, and that is with the Scouting Department because they see these guys all year round.
Now, I must say that if a coach asks the scouting department who would better fit my scheme and things like that, then the draft team may want to change the board a little, but a team holds the scouting department responsible for doing a great job of talent evaluation and should not then tell the HC or the GM that he can over rule their judgement, while all along holding the scouts accountable.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?

by 






















