Draft Strategy: BPA vs Need reframed
There's been an inordinate amount discussion about the best draft strategy. Most of the discussion is about whether teams are best served by drafting BPA or for need. In my opinion BPA versus need is really a question of how you balance short-term benefit against long-term benefit (i.e. do you draft for the short term or for the long-term).
1st let's get some consistent terminology. In economic terms we are talking about marginal utility. Marginal utility is the benefit that's derived from one incremental unit. This contributor at advanced NFL stats writes about the concept of marginal utility in a coherent manner.
In plain English about football, this means that if your team has two all-pro wide receivers and zero competent linebackers, and you have a choice between adding a third all-pro receiver or an all-pro linebacker, you'd better go for the linebacker. Adding your first good linebacker will give more net points to your team than adding a third top receiver
No one is disputing the above quote. That raises a question: if everyone agrees with the above statement what is it that people disagreeing about? I believe there are 2 things. First, people disagree about the correct balance between short-term benefit long-term benefit. Second, people disagree about the value of the current players on the roster. This analysis is focused on the balance between short term and long term.
For clarity instead of talking about utility (which is a theoretical concept) I'm going to assume that utility is equal to the change in points that a player produces. For example, the average NFL team will score approximately 400 points per season and will allow approximately 400 points per season. That average team would have a record of 8-8. When I talk about utility I'm going to talk about how much a player would change either total points scored or total points allowed for a season.
For example, let's assume that the Dallas Cowboys are an average NFL football team (not crazy since they were 6-10 last year). Furthermore, let's assume that all the players on the Cowboys are average players except for the following:
-Dez Bryant: 25 points over an average player
-Miles Austin: 25 points over an average player
-Marc Colombo: -50 points below an average player
-Leonard Davis: -25 points below an average player
-DeMarcus Ware: 50 points over an average player
-Alan Ball: -25 points below an average player
Adding up all the pluses and minuses the net points over average is 0 (this actually is not accurate as the offense was above average and the defense was below average … just ignore that). This should produce an 8-8 team.
Now let's consider a couple draft scenarios. Assume that both Von Miller and Tyron Smith are available with the number 9 pick. Assume that Von Miller is in fact equivalent to DeMarcus Ware and is worth 50 points over an average player and that Tyron Smith is worth 25 points over an average player. Using these assumptions Von Miller is the BPA. However one can make a case that Tyron Smith is the better draft pick for Dallas. That case rests not on the value over an average player but the value over the player that is being replaced (in this case I'm going to call that value over substitute).
Let's take a look at a comparison of Von Miller's value over substitute (where he’s substituting for an average Anthony Spencer, 0 points over average) and Tyron Smith’s value over substitute (where he’s substituting for a below average Mark Colombo, 50 points below average). I've assumed that both players have ten-year careers and perform at a constant level over the course of their careers.
| Year | Von Miller |
Anthony Spencer |
VOS | Tyron Smith |
Marc Colombo |
VOS | |
| 1 | 50 | - | 50 | 25 | (50) | 75 | |
| 2 | 50 | - | 50 | 25 | (50) | 75 | |
| 3 | 50 | - | 50 | 25 | (50) | 75 | |
| 4 | 50 | - | 50 | 25 | (50) | 75 | |
| 5 | 50 | - | 50 | 25 | (50) | 75 | |
| 6 | 50 | - | 50 | 25 | (50) | 75 | |
| 7 | 50 | - | 50 | 25 | (50) | 75 | |
| 8 | 50 | - | 50 | 25 | (50) | 75 | |
| 9 | 50 | - | 50 | 25 | (50) | 75 | |
| 10 | 50 | - | 50 | 25 | (50) | 75 | |
| Total | 500 | 750 |
This looks great for Tyron Smith. Tyron Smith produces 750 points over substitute over the course of his career while Von Miller only produces 500. Tyron Smith should be the pick.
However it also makes explicit the implicit assumptions that the need-based argument rests on:
-That the value of a draft pick should be evaluated based on their impact in the short term only, and/or
-the value over substitute should be evaluated as if the existing substitute is the alternative for the draft pick’s entire 10 year career.
For example, if we assume that instead of Marc Colombo the substitute for Tyron Smith after year 1 is an average player (i.e. 0 points over average), then the value over substitute for Tyron Smith's career dramatically changes. Here we assume that Tyron Smith would be replacing Mark Colombo in his 1st year but would only be replacing an average player in all subsequent years.
| Year | Von Miller |
Anthony Spencer |
VOS | Tyron Smith |
Marc Colombo |
VOS | |
| 1 | 50 | - | 50 | 25 | (50) | 75 | |
| 2 | 50 | - | 50 | 25 | - | 25 | |
| 3 | 50 | - | 50 | 25 | - | 25 | |
| 4 | 50 | - | 50 | 25 | - | 25 | |
| 5 | 50 | - | 50 | 25- | - |
25 | |
| 6 | 50 | - | 50 | 25 | - | 25 | |
| 7 | 50 | - | 50 | 25 | - | 25 | |
| 8 | 50 | - | 50 | 25 | - | 25 | |
| 9 | 50 | - | 50 | 25 | - | 25 | |
| 10 | 50 | - | 50 | 25 | - | 25 | |
| Total | 500 | 300 |
Now Von Miller provides almost twice as many points as Tyron Smith over his career.
I've noticed that the initial scenario, that a draft pick should be evaluated against the existing substitute for their entire career is the position than many people who favor drafting Tyron Smith are making. What I've seen argued is that because the Dallas Cowboys don’t have depth on the offensive line and the free-agent market is thin there is no opportunity for Dallas to acquire even an average offensive lineman and this situation will continue in perpetuity. My personal opinion is that is assuming the worst possible case to back into the conclusion they want to reach. Dallas has been successful in acquiring free-agent offensive lineman who are satisfactory. In addition, Hudson Houck has now been in Dallas 3 years and in that time has developed Doug Free. In my opinion over the long term the most reasonable base case assumption is that your substitute would be an average player. You have injuries, retirements, free agency, player development, etc. You also get nonsensical results, like if AJ Green slipped to be 2nd round it’d be better to take James Carpenter because he replaces Colombo. Again, this shows that BPA versus need is really about finding the right balance between short term and long term benefit. The longer period you consider the more sense it makes to assume an average player as the substitute. I leave it to the reader to make up their own mind about what the appropriate substitute assumption is.
Finally, I’d like to tie this back to 2 posts from OCC:
The underlying assumption of a BPA approach is that drafts are not a short term fix for a couple of team weaknesses, but that the draft is the cornerstone of long term franchise building and team strategy. Over the long run, BPA should in principle give you the best team possible, but injuries, free agency and draft busts can have a significant impact on this. The downside obviously is that a BPA approach does not address team needs. That is why God (with a little help from the NFLPA) invented free agency.
Think of the teams you usually associate a BPA approach with. The Patriots. The Colts. The Packers. The Steelers. Perhaps the Eagles. Maybe a few more. What do all these teams have in common? Over the last few years, they usually haven’t had that many holes on their roster. They had the luxury of mostly following relatively stringent BPA approaches, whereas most teams drafting in the top 15 every year do not have that luxury. Instead, these weak teams must address very specific needs or holes in their rosters and have to resort to at least a ‘BPA at position of need’ strategy, if not an outright need strategy, to fill those holes.
and this quote from Colts GM Bill Polian
"We always try to draft the best player available, and the best example I can give is Reggie Wayne," he said. "We had a big need for a cornerback that year, but we could not agree on who that should be. So we turned around, traded down, and took Reggie Wayne, who was the best player available at that pick. And it turned out to be the right thing."
"And it always is, you should take the best player. You might be wrong in the assessment of the player, but as long as you take the best player your odds of success are very much greater."
I think the 2nd quote is a possible explanation for the first quote …
What do all these teams have in common? Over the last few years, they usually haven’t had that many holes on their roster.
They don’t have holes because "as long as you take the best player your odds of success are very much greater". Improving your odds leaves you with fewer holes, which gives you the luxury of drafting the best player. Again, short term benefit against long term benefit. Anyway, this probably could have been said in 100 words instead of 2,000 but sometimes it is useful to be precise so we can see the underlying assumptions explicitly.
Have a good weekend.
Another user-created commentary provided by a BTB reader.
90 comments
|
4 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
So if I'm a Fortune 500 Company
And my COO is terrible, I should hire a couple of CFO’s if they are the best Excecs available. Same logic.
We live life forwards and understand it backwards
Agreed
The analogy is questionable. My CFO won’t have to face the same injury or arguably performance issues that a cornerback will face.
it’s a straw man argument.
tdships is making the false assumption that hiring a CFO and a COO is mutually exclusive (i.e. you can only do one or the other). In the real world companies don’t have that restriction. The company should hire the best COO available.
Or to turn it around, is tdships saying that if a company has the opportunity to hire an outstanding CFO they shouldn’t if they have a terrible COO? It makes no sense. The two decisions are independent.
tdships, I’d ask you not make up insulting straw man arguments and attribute them to me.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Apr 2, 2011 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions
I asked a question
If you find that insulting, then perhaps the issue is not mine.
I believe the BPA argument is intellectually dishonest, it applies in limited circumstance, if at all. And is used as an excuse when teams make mistakes. Irrespective of whether you agree, the Cowboys draft shows little rationale, coherence from year-to-year or even in total. It appears reactionary, overly opportunistic and lacking in fundamentals. That said, even BPA with all its flaws would be an improvement for DAL at this point.
We live life forwards and understand it backwards
You made up a straw man argument and then attributed to me. The 2 key assumptions
-that hiring a CFO and COO would be mutually exclusive (that isn’t how companies normally operate and it’s pretty dumb to operate that way unless there’s a reason),
-and that a CEO with a bad COO would go hire a CFO (again, with no explanation why).
I’m happy to discuss your example if its phrased in a less pejorative manner.
For exmaple, let’s assume that hiring a COO and a CFO ARE mutually exclusive. Because of budget constraints the CEO can only afford to hire a new CFO or a new COO. Also assume:
-The current COO is terrible
-The current CFO is average
The CEO interviews candidates. The CFO candidate is a young Warren Buffett. The COO candidate is Joe Schmoe. They won’t have a second chance to hire either candidate.
I’m happy to stipulate that my logic is that the company would be best served in the long term by hiring the young Buffett to be CFO and hiring a new COO as soon as they can afford to.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Apr 2, 2011 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Actaully, it was an analogy
An illustrative reference, not an absolute to be taken literally.
It’s the classic ‘Essential vs. Nice to Have’ Argument. And in Business it is no contest as to which wins the day. Unless you are Berkshire Hathaway, to build on your own analogy, companies will address Need every time.
We live life forwards and understand it backwards
I believe the BPA argument is intellectually dishonest
it take a special kinda chutzpa to make up a pejorative straw man argument and then talk about intellectual dishonesty.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Apr 2, 2011 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Or just intellectual honesty
I’ll concede you are a analytical whiz, but language is my forte’ and I try to be precise with it. I will accept the special chuztpa designation in any event. Coming from NYC originally, I probably can’t help it.
I don’t believe I’ve attacked you personally and I never denigrated your premise, but I am dead-set against this notion that BPA is a one-size-fits all panacea for contenders and pretenders alike. That is the discussion I am attempting to have.
We live life forwards and understand it backwards
language is my forte’ and I try to be precise with it
awesome. let’s talk about this.
So if I’m a Fortune 500 Company And my COO is terrible, I should hire a couple of CFO’s if they are the best Excecs available. Same logic.
Here’s my read
-you don’t come out and say it but you are implying that the decision to hire a CFO or COO is mutally exclusive
-you are taking an aspect of the NFL (that employees are acquired through the draft and hence hiring decisions are mutually exclusive) and applying it to the real world where no such constraints exist.
do you agree with that?
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Apr 2, 2011 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions
You're cherry picking detail and ignoring the overall point
And the example is Relative, not Absolute. At least the 3rd time I’ve explained that. If were to do the same, I would ask a string of questions on the relative bona fides of Warren Buffet, completely ignoring the fact that issue is completely beside the point.
And in both examples, the choices are contextual. My critical point the BPA choice mostly opportunistic is usually sub-optimal. Even moreso with a team/organization with so many critical needs.
We live life forwards and understand it backwards
I'm taking the rest of the night off
Butler game is about to start
We live life forwards and understand it backwards
You’re cherry picking detail and ignoring the overall point
-you just bragged about how you’re precise with language. don’t object that I’m being precise interpreting what you wrote
-it’s not cherry picking … the whole example hinges on that point. The only dumb thing that CEO is doing in your example is treating hiring a new COO and a new CFO as if they’re mutually exclusive decisions. Note the dumb thing, the mutual exclusivity, is the part that you made up (i.e. applying a NFL dynamic to the real world). that’s the straw man.
anyway, enjoy the tourney.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Apr 2, 2011 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think it's quite as simple as
BPA vs need. If youve drafted well and have a good team, it’s easy to take the best player available, since your needs are minimal. At the other extreme, if you have a horrible team, BPA is easy because your needs are so great.
Let’s look more closely at BPA, Bill Belichick gets rid of "aging " stars and stocks up on draft choices, so he has the flexibility of going BPA. Andy Reed does alot of this with the Eagles.
Let’s look at Detroit. They drafted BPA for years, their player evaluation was faulty and they were destined for the cellar because of that. Recently, however, they hit not only on BPA but also on need because their player evaluation was much better, ie, N Suh etal.
The problem arises when your an average team, one with some good or great players, but one which also has holes to fill, ie, needs. Then it’s a combination of both, BPA and needs.
Since BPA is somewat subjective, look at all the various mocks and compare them to actual drafts, teams IMO, must look at the following:
1) you need a great GM to run your football operations
2) he must hire a great head coach and with the head coach’s help a great staff
3) all must have a clear vision of the offensive and defensive schemes that they will deploy
4) The GM has to have the best people possible scouting and evaluating the talent, which fits the offensive and defensive schemes implemented by the coaching staff.
To me that’s what makes a football franchise successful.
good points pf the cowboys have the 2 and 3 the 1 and 4 are severely lacking
by 0k on Apr 2, 2011 12:10 AM CDT up reply actions
Precisely my point
BPA serves well-stocked teams very effectively because their needs are relatively minor. For the other 3/4 of the league, Need outweighs almost all other considerations.
Occam’s Razor has been referenced since the 14th Century for good reason.
We live life forwards and understand it backwards
+1
There is also something to consider…which BPA rankings? I believe every team has a different draft board. The Best Player Available for each team is different depending on their roster, scheme, and coaching preferences. To some character concerns arenot a big factor to their rankings while others may rely heavily on interviews. To say “go BPA,” inherently means (at elast to me) that need is already inherently factored into a team’s draft board. I don’t believe there exists a single-truth all-encompassing BPA list.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Football is an incredible game. Sometimes it's so incredible, it's unbelievable."
- Tom Landry
Agreed. That is a huge point.
I disagreed with Jaguars fans who were saying Tyson Alualu wasn’t a reach, but it is a valid point to say that it is entirely possible that the Jaguars really just had him that high on their board (I still think though he was more representative of a need pick).
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
too much logic and numbers for me, but the general idea I like
I see what your saying, but Ive been suporting Tyron Smith for months
we need a RT, no running around that
I dont see the problem with taking a blue chip prospect at a position of need
thats just how I feel
I think Marc Columbo and the safety situation is holding us back, those are the positions that are pink cupcake frosting, soft and sweet
they need to be filled with hardcore talent
now for the Reggie Wayne comment, Polian can BS you all he wants, they needed Reggie Wayne
yeah they had a need for a cornerback, but they also needed a WR to compliment Harrison
for the record, every year Polian does this
he took Jerry Hughes over Roger Saffold, he felt Saffold was the right guy, but took Hughes, and then publically stated he made the wrong decision
I take Polian’s recent drafts with a grain of salt, they havent exactly been money besides WR
that was a shot at Polian not you by the way
that guy just makes me sick with all his flip flopping
by Archie Barberio on Apr 2, 2011 2:03 AM CDT up reply actions
I wouldn’t give up on Hughes yet. And considering Indy already have Freeney and Mathis, I say that’s an example of Polian putting his money where his mouth is.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Apr 2, 2011 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions
bro
Polian f’d that pick up, its league known
Roger Saffold would be the OL they are looking for this year
by Archie Barberio on Apr 2, 2011 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Good stuff, FTT
I agree with the whole premise of this post, and it gets an auto-rec. Funny that you should post this today, because I’m sitting here writing a similar post. The question I’m looking at is slightly different though:
Does Tyron Smith (#9) have greater value for the Cowboys than, say, a trade down scenario as proposed by Raf that yields a tackle (#17) and a guard (#28)?
by One.Cool.Customer on Apr 2, 2011 6:09 AM CDT reply actions
I not only agree but I look forward to the article OCC.
I have been preaching this same theme since the beginning of the T. Smith Bandwagon. Now don’t get me wrong, I’m only against drafting him until we draft him. Then the moment he becomes a Cowboy, then I will welcome him with open arms. I took an oath in being a Cowboys fan to never root for a Cowboy to fail to make a valid point that I was right. But back to what I was saying. I do not think that T. Smith is worth Canstonzo or Carimi and an 3 pick that could be Kendrick Ellis or Mason Foster or Quan Sturdivant, or Ras I dowling. Solid contributors on defense that could help right this ship.
F**** establishing a culture, we need to establish dominance...
I completely agree
Who would trade Sean Lee and our 1st round pick for Tyron Smith? Even Roy Williams didn’t cost that much.
But that’s what the Tyron Smith bandwagon wants. If you can trade down to #17 or #18 Sherrod, Castonzo, and Carimi should be there – plus you get an extra 2nd you can turn into Cameron Heyward – this year’s Sean Lee.
It’s a no-brainer. Collect talent.
The Ohio State Buckeyes are your Sugar Bowl champions... and for the 7th year in a row Michigan still sucks.
by Blue Eyed Devil on Apr 2, 2011 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions
see I disagree
these are the reasons I dont want to trade down
Reason 1- Jerry is awful at trading down and “stockpiling” picks
Reason 2- Everyone looks at the Patriots as this godly team, while teams like the Steelers Packers for example, if they pick that high, they take their goddamn pick where it is and take a stud
Reason 3- OL is always vastly underrated before the draft, then the draft rolls around and OL start flying off the board
Reason 4- I think Tyron Smith is the real deal, thats just how I feel
I get the extra pick and all, but we never pick in the top 10, I want a top 10 talent
by Archie Barberio on Apr 2, 2011 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions
I will say this
if we traded down and missed out on the OT we graded high, and we took Mike Pouncey to start the draft I would be thrilled
i think he is one of the safest picks in the draft
top notch character, great skills, guaranteed solid pro for 10 years
by Archie Barberio on Apr 2, 2011 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Pouncey is very overrated.
He was a below average center. Teams are betting that he will be his brother. He is not Maurkice is a better player than his brother.
Wars are won in the trenches and we need some new big uglies!
as a guard
I think Pouncey is one of the safest picks in the draft
by Archie Barberio on Apr 3, 2011 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions
And here I thought I was the only one that thought that.
His draft stock is experiencing a relatively mild case of Clay-Casey-Matthews syndrome. He is a good prospect, but I don’t think he is a first round prospect. And he is certainly not his brother or Mike Iupati.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
Somebody said it elsewhere...
but I agree with it and will restate it here: “if I want a Center that can play some Guard, I draft Stefen Wisniewski. If I want a Guard that can play some Center, I draft Mike Pouncey.”
There are former OT’s that I’d rather have at Guard than either of them (Cannon, Ijalana, Watkins). Why? Because I can’t see Pouncey ever kicking out to RT if needed. There isn’t anyone in this draft I’d rather have at Center than Wisniewski.
So, are we looking for a Guard or a Center?
Rabid and luvin' it
No brainer only if you think...
that Castonzo and Smith are there at #17 or 18 (I think both are gone), that other OTs are just as good as the two aforementioned (I don’t), and that you can get a 2nd round pick to move down 9 spots (I think it’s doubtful in this year’s draft). At least that’s my opinion. Now if it all happens the way you say and I can still get Castonzo and a second then I am fine, but that is a gamble.
As for T. Smith, you must understand the “bandwagon” also includes individuals that see him as a blue-chip prospect. You don’t draft in the Top 10 often (hopefully) and some don’t want to trade down and not get an elite prospect if one is available at #9 – it all depends on if you think T. Smith is a blue-chipper.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Football is an incredible game. Sometimes it's so incredible, it's unbelievable."
- Tom Landry
The draft value chart has been a pretty good indicator of trade value
It’s highly unlikely any team would expect to move up for anything less than a 2nd rounder. Whether the trade value chart is “right” or not, it’s been the gold standard for trades and most trades have mirrored it. So, yes, the cost of moving up is a 2nd rounder. If you look back in the past 5 drafts, you’ll find trades such as these require a 2nd rounder. That’s just the way the market works – it’s no different this year than any other.
I don’t see Smith falling to 17, no one does. I see Sherrod and Carimi easily being availiable in the teens. As for Castonzo, I don’t like him. I think he has significant bust postential and isn’t a good fit for RT anyways. Really shouldn’t be on the Cowboys board. When we talk about “draft profiles” and “team fit” Castonzo is not a fit for the Cowboys line. He might end up being a nice player, but he’s not what will fit on the Cowboys right side.
The Ohio State Buckeyes are your Sugar Bowl champions... and for the 7th year in a row Michigan still sucks.
by Blue Eyed Devil on Apr 2, 2011 11:46 PM CDT up reply actions
LOL, I thought I was the only one that didn't really like Castonzo.
Honestly I like Sherrod better than him.
Interesting...
I see Castonzo as the safest pick at OT. Sherrod I think is the unusual case of a LT that could have issues as RT, Castonzo is good in everything he does. He my not have the same upside as Smith, but will be a stud OT no matter which side you play him – in my opinion. Solder I think has the highest “bust quotiant” or at least the most growing pains. Carimi will be a stud RT with pass blocking issues as LT and some speed rushers as RT.
As for the draft trades, I know how it’s been and what the chart shows, but soemthign tells me in this strange year with no FA prior to the draft – uncertainty of both who you can get in FA market and which one of your players will even be FAs – teams will be inwilling to trade unequal amount of trades. If we are going to get a 2nd round pick to move down in to the teens, I think we would have to at least give up a 3rd. As always this is all jus tmy guesses…we shall see
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Football is an incredible game. Sometimes it's so incredible, it's unbelievable."
- Tom Landry
yeah but Raf doesnt want to trade down
Raf and I share the same view, were scared to death of trading down because of what jerry does when he trades down
we both want Smith at #9 and call it a night
by Archie Barberio on Apr 2, 2011 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Count me in
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Football is an incredible game. Sometimes it's so incredible, it's unbelievable."
- Tom Landry
LOL, that is exactly a point I made in a post a week or so back.
That to me one of the top 3 OT + Wiz or Watkins was > just Smith alone.
Bill James deserves some acknowledgement. It’s a Bill James idea that you should compare your alternatives against an average player.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Apr 3, 2011 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions
may not get a top 3 ot
You’d be hard pressed to find someone willing to give up a second to trade up this year unless its for one of the blue chippers.
A.J. Green, Julio Jones, Blaine Gabbert, Cam Newton
If any of those fall to #9 other teams can’t risk Washington. The Redskins need a WR and a QB in the absolute worst way. So if you’re a team in need of a QB or a team in need of a blue-chip WR (Rams, Patriots, Chargers) you have to jump Washington if you plan on getting that player.
That’s where the leverage works in our favor. We are in an amazing place of leverage being at the end of the top-10 (affordable) but 1 spot above Washington (who will take that blue-chip player with both hands).
The Ohio State Buckeyes are your Sugar Bowl champions... and for the 7th year in a row Michigan still sucks.
by Blue Eyed Devil on Apr 2, 2011 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Also, ammunition lines up well
The Chargers and Patriots both have 2 seconds and 2 thirds meaning they have plenty of picks to use to trade up.
The Ohio State Buckeyes are your Sugar Bowl champions... and for the 7th year in a row Michigan still sucks.
by Blue Eyed Devil on Apr 2, 2011 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions
true
And the calculations work out in that regard. Honestly I can’t see the Pats trading up but rather the Chargers.
I think the Pats are licking their chops at the talent they can get with a mid and a late 1st round pick this year and don’t see them trading up…at least not up towards the Top 10.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Football is an incredible game. Sometimes it's so incredible, it's unbelievable."
- Tom Landry
The Pats
have so many picks in the first 3 rounds, Belichick can pretty much do whatever he wants. I just don’t know if there are enough roster spot if he uses all his picks, that’s why I think he’ll wheel and deal at some point during the draft.
No doubt
He will certianly make trades, I just don’t see him giving up so much to get into the top 10 in this draft…though I wouldn’t be surprised if they traded into the 1st for a 3rd time with their extra 2nd and 3rd round picks.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Football is an incredible game. Sometimes it's so incredible, it's unbelievable."
- Tom Landry
trading with he skins
I’ve read a trade with the Skins for the Pats, the Skins gave up a few picks and need extra picks desperately.
Doesn't this argument ignore the fact that other replacements could be netted, in the same draft?
Isn’t that part of the BPA vs Need argument as well, that keeps it from being simplified in this manner?
(obviously you had to assign value’s to players that are imprecise in order to present the concept)
I follow the math, but there are a lot of assumptions necessary in order to prove the point. The main assumption is that you are only getting one chance to select a replacement, and that is not the case.
Using your model, Von Miller is the best selection because he represents the most value over replacement. But what happens when you get to the second round and there is no offensive lineman capable of providing anything but average (0) replacement to Marc Colombo’s below average contribution?
Better yet, are you forced to take that average replacement in the second round because anyone else you get in the third round would have a below average VOS? Doesn’t taking the BPA in the first round when you’re a bad team FORCE you to reach later on in the draft? Wouldn’t that strategy affect you negatively over the course of the 10 years?
What happens if Dallas doesn’t take a tackle in the 2nd round because of BPA? Then we roll into next season with Colombo or a below average VOS replacement we drafted in the mid-rounds?
Basically what I’m saying is this…
1st round, select Von Miller- who according to your assumptions gives you 500 pts VOS over a 10 year career. Let’s assume that by the time pick #40 comes around, the best tackle prospect is an average replacement for Colombo. Would the combination of Miller and Tackle B be better in the long term for the Cowboys? What if the defensive player pool is stacked, and you can get an above average Spencer-replacement (25) in the second round? Doesn’t that affect the argument as well?
You can pretty much manipulate the stats to prove either side of this argument, especially when you have to use random value assignments instead of tanglble evidence to prove the case.
www.bloggingtheboys.com
Flood The Block Radio, every Tuesday 730p on www.rocktheflow.com
--The Poster formerly known as KDP.--
I only argue with people whom I hold great respect for their opinions.
That’s is the Jonathan Bales circular argument. You can see I was equally horrified when Bales did it. In fact, that was part of the impetus for writing this.
http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2011/3/21/2063069/dallas-cowboys-draft-strategies-pt-1-bpa-vs-need
Implicit in your arguement is that OT has to be replaced in this draft (as opposed to FA, over time, etc).
Here’s the form of your argument
-You assume have to DRAFT an OT.
-You then conclude that since you have to draft an OT, then you have to draft for need.
That’s a circular argument. One of your premises is that the conclusion is true (that you have to take an OT). That’s just cicular reasoning.
You can pretty much manipulate the stats to prove either side of this argument, especially when you have to use random value assignments instead of tanglble evidence to prove the case.
No, you can’t.
But what happens when you get to the second round and there is no offensive lineman capable of providing anything but average (0) replacement to Marc Colombo’s below average contribution?
this is my view on that
I’ve noticed that the initial scenario, that a draft pick should be evaluated against the existing substitute for their entire career is the position than many people who favor drafting Tyron Smith are making. What I’ve seen argued is that because the Dallas Cowboys don’t have depth on the offensive line and the free-agent market is thin there is no opportunity for Dallas to acquire even an average offensive lineman and this situation will continue in perpetuity. My personal opinion is that is assuming the worst possible case to back into the conclusion they want to reach. Dallas has been successful in acquiring free-agent offensive lineman who are satisfactory. In addition, Hudson Houck has now been in Dallas 3 years and in that time has developed Doug Free. In my opinion over the long term the most reasonable base case assumption is that your substitute would be an average player.
Can I make a suggestion? I don’t think there’s any point in further dialog. We speak different languages.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Apr 4, 2011 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Question
I think OT was used in KD’s example simply because it is a need. eventually, you will have to fill a need. I think the question KD brings up, at least that I agreed with, is: Wouldn’t you have to take into consideration the value propositions of having T. Smith vs. Gilbert vs. FA at OT to find the pionts over subsitute in more than just the 1st round picks. Wouldn’t you need to take into consideration more than just the Miller vs. Smith substitute totals to make that decision for the enitre draft, or are you considering each pick as a single proposition?
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Football is an incredible game. Sometimes it's so incredible, it's unbelievable."
- Tom Landry
that’s hiarilous and I would want to stop the dialog too if I was trying to stand on your point.
My argument is, that if you simply select the best talent available, needs be damned, then you could end up with a roster of 65 running backs, or 23 receivers and 30 corners.
Now let’s consider a couple draft scenarios. Assume that both Von Miller and Tyron Smith are available with the number 9 pick. Assume that Von Miller is in fact equivalent to DeMarcus Ware and is worth 50 points over an average player and that Tyron Smith is worth 25 points over an average player. Using these assumptions Von Miller is the BPA. However one can make a case that Tyron Smith is the better draft pick for Dallas. That case rests not on the value over an average player but the value over the player that is being replaced (in this case I’m going to call that value over substitute).
Let’s take a look at a comparison of Von Miller’s value over substitute (where he’s substituting for an average Anthony Spencer, 0 points over average) and Tyron Smith’s value over substitute (where he’s substituting for a below average Mark Colombo, 50 points below average). I’ve assumed that both players have ten-year careers and perform at a constant level over the course of their careers.
You have, yourself, injected need into your argument for ignoring need. BPA argues that regardless of what you have at a position, you take the best talent. You are arguing for BPAPN, best player available at a position of need, under the label of BPA.
If you adhere to that reasoning, then what if I my board matched Wes Bunting’s and Dallas had the 25th pick in the draft? By the logic of BPA regardless of need, we’d be drafting a first round fullback. This team would be better served to draft Owen Marecic because he’d be a plus 50 to Chris Gronkowski’s -50? Obviously you wouldn’t recommend that, because to some extent, you factor need into your selection of a player. The extent to which need is used can be a worthwhile debate.
My use of tackle as the example followed your use of it.
www.bloggingtheboys.com
Flood The Block Radio, every Tuesday 730p on www.rocktheflow.com
--The Poster formerly known as KDP.--
I only argue with people whom I hold great respect for their opinions.
that should read
“you are arguing against BPAPN”
www.bloggingtheboys.com
Flood The Block Radio, every Tuesday 730p on www.rocktheflow.com
--The Poster formerly known as KDP.--
I only argue with people whom I hold great respect for their opinions.
are we reading the same thing?
The part you quoted is where I explained the logic of BPAPN, which I disagree with. Then I explained why I think the best base case assumpmtion over the long term is that the alternative is an average player.
Here’s the objection you stated
But what happens when you get to the second round and there is no offensive lineman capable of providing anything but average (0) replacement to Marc Colombo’s below average contribution? … Doesn’t taking the BPA in the first round when you’re a bad team FORCE you to reach later on in the draft?
That has 2 problems.
-First you assume that you have to draft for need. But that’s short term perspective. Needs don’t stay needs forever. You have FA and player development.
-Second, the arguement is circular. You presuppose the conclusion. No, I don’t believe taking a position other than OL @ 9 forces you to reach for an OL later. In fact, everyone keeps saying there are no OL who can come in and play in 2011 in the 2nd round anyway (which is supposedly why it has to be T. Smith @ 9). 2 seasons of FA and another draft … seems like there are lots of options other than just reaching with the 2/3 round picks to fill that need if necessary. You’re not assuming it forces you to reach for S, DL, or CB which are all needs as well.
My argument is, that if you simply select the best talent available, needs be damned, then you could end up with a roster of 65 running backs, or 23 receivers and 30 corners.
that’s a legitimate point. I assumed a very extreme example. If Von Miller was 30 pts VOA and Smith was 25 pts VOA, then 1 year of Smith replacing a -50 Colombo would give you equal career VOS for the 2 players. But I stand on my point that the best base case assumption is that your alternative is an average player which should tilt the balance towards BPA.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Apr 4, 2011 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions
and you just illustrated my point exactly
-You’re not assuming it forces you to reach for S, DL, or CB which are all needs as well.
If you have 4 glaring needs, and the cheapest way to fill that need is through the draft, why would you spend the opportunities for the closest to a sure thing on something you don’t need? That’s over thinking the situation.
You’ve admitted that reigning in your generous assumptions on player value…
If Von Miller was 30 pts VOA and Smith was 25 pts VOA, then 1 year of Smith replacing a -50 Colombo would give you equal career VOS for the 2 players.
… limits the difference.Then how would you still justify taking a player at a position of non-need as opposed to BPAPN? They’d have the same career impact but it’s better to take a player that doesn’t fill a glaring need?
Drafting for need is not ONLY a short term strategy- the two aren’t mutually exclusive. It also fills a need, as you assumed, for the next 10 years. Without doing the research, I’d be willing to bet that most of the past SuperBowl champs have built their teams through the BPAPN model and THEN moved to taking BPA once their roster is established. I doubt you are going to see very many selections where you say, they picked someone even though they didn’t need that spot filled. And the occasional instance wouldn’t be enough to prove that point, it would have to be a bona fied strategy.
Choosing BPA when you are a good team is a strategy born out of the upper echelon of talent being taken before you ever get on the clock. It’s not a strategy for a quality roster with glaring holes in certain spots. When I look at the first two rounds of picks of the recent final four teams , I see them filling need positions. Show me the below average team that built itself from not addressing their needs early in the draft to support your stance. That would be convincing.
www.bloggingtheboys.com
Flood The Block Radio, every Tuesday 730p on www.rocktheflow.com
--The Poster formerly known as KDP.--
I only argue with people whom I hold great respect for their opinions.
New Orlean Saints.
2006: take Reggie Bush even though they already have Duece
2007: take Robert Meachem even though they arleady have Coston, Henderson, & Moore
2008: take Sedrick Ellis even though they have Charles Grant and Will Smith
2009: take Malcolm Jenkins (arguably a need pick although they had taken Tracy Porter high the previous Year).
Super Bowl.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Apr 4, 2011 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions
and btw, I’m of the opinion that your mind is made up. unless you enjoy butting head (and I don’t) it’s a big waste of time. That’s why I didn’t feel like discussing it further.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Apr 4, 2011 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions
2005: Deuce McAllister tears ACL, want a top flight runner, draft for need Reggie Bush.
2006: Joe Horn leaves the team and a gaping hole at wideout opposite the 7th round draft pick one-year wonder Colston. Devery Henderson never had more than 32 catches until 2009. Lance Moore played in only 4 games in 2006. Obviously a need for Sean Payton’s dynamic passing attack.
2007: Charles Grant after having 20.5 sacks in 03 & 04, totaled only 10.5 ‘05-’07, with only 2.5 in 14 starts in 2007. Will Smith, ok… but Sedrick Ellis is a Defensive tackle, not a defensive end. He replaced Hollis Thomas, who was a 10 year vet at the time, and some no-names. Definitely a position of need.
2009: They drafted Jenkins to play safety, Porter is a conerback. You concede that’s a need pick.
All first round draft picks for positions of great need, or BPAPN. Team does it well, wins Super Bowl.
My mind isn’t made up, I just don’t see an example of the theory being implemented. Multiple examples would change my mind. I’ll leave it be though, we don’t need to discuss it any further if you don’t want to.
www.bloggingtheboys.com
Flood The Block Radio, every Tuesday 730p on www.rocktheflow.com
--The Poster formerly known as KDP.--
I only argue with people whom I hold great respect for their opinions.
Hmmm
I don’t think either of you are right on Malcolm Jenkins. From what I heard he was a CB that COULD project to FS, I don’t think they were deadset on moving him there. I could be wrong though.
you may be correct- I shouldn't have spoken definitively on Jenkins
www.bloggingtheboys.com
Flood The Block Radio, every Tuesday 730p on www.rocktheflow.com
--The Poster formerly known as KDP.--
I only argue with people whom I hold great respect for their opinions.
How does picking Dez Bryant look under that same microscope?
…and are there hierarchies of need (dire, soon to be, 4 years from now)?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I'd venture to say that taking Bryant was taking the BPA approach definitely
and if we had drafted Nate Allen or TJ Ward as safeties he would have had a much bigger impact on the team for the 2010 season, and would have solved a need for the next 10 years.
Now don’t get me wrong, I’ve always been supportive of the Bryant selection because I love Bryant.
We took Bryant because our front office THOUGHT we were an upper echelon team ready to start drafing for BPA, and got a rude 6-10 wake-up call that we would have been better served drafting for need.
www.bloggingtheboys.com
Flood The Block Radio, every Tuesday 730p on www.rocktheflow.com
--The Poster formerly known as KDP.--
I only argue with people whom I hold great respect for their opinions.
Are you kidding me?
We would’ve been better off with Nate Allen and his PFF.com coverage grade of -7.6 or TJ Ward with his -6.3? Yeah we’re better off with those guys, not one of the most talented players in the draft?
http://cowboysanalysis.blogspot.com/
PFF is not the end all be all
you can correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe if you poll knowledgeable fans of the Eagles and the Browns, they are estatic to have those positions addressed and not have to worry about them moving forward.
www.bloggingtheboys.com
Flood The Block Radio, every Tuesday 730p on www.rocktheflow.com
--The Poster formerly known as KDP.--
I only argue with people whom I hold great respect for their opinions.
What if we had traded up beyond GB to take Bulaga?
How do you think that would have played out? Would that still be BPA?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Hard to say
Right now, Bulaga looks like half the other tackles in the league. Decent run blocker, but struggles with speed rushers. Also, yes, I would consider it BPA if you trade up and take the highest rated guy on your board.
http://cowboysanalysis.blogspot.com/
taking Bulaga would have filled a need at tackle
and again, I’m arguing for the slight modification of BPA, BPAPN. I do not condone saying ‘target our #1 need and take that position no matter the value’.
A team that has several glaring holes, needs to fill those holes before taking the best player on the board if he doesn’t fill one. We have 5-6 major needs, I’d rather fill one of them with a future star.
www.bloggingtheboys.com
Flood The Block Radio, every Tuesday 730p on www.rocktheflow.com
--The Poster formerly known as KDP.--
I only argue with people whom I hold great respect for their opinions.
It depends
Things aren’t as black and white as saying this is a need and that isn’t, if it was, everything would be a need. But ultimately I think in the first two rounds, you have to take players at positions where either, the current starter is below average, or, the starter is old.
http://cowboysanalysis.blogspot.com/
KD,
I thought about your comment overnight. I think you actually misunderstood the claim I was making. I did not claim that a BPA strategy is superior to a need strategy. My claim was that BPA is more long term oriented. I think there’s a strong case that focusing on the long term is going to tilt your board towards BPA.
I actually remember 1989 when business people believed that Japan’s economy was superior to the US because of government involvement that allowed a longer-term focus. And I also remember the 1990’s when everyone was saying that the USA’s short term focus on the next quarters earnings was best way to manage an economy and why the US produced such fantastic growth in the 1990’s. As is usual in life, my hunch is the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
What I wanted offer a framework for how you can think about BPA versus need in a methodical manner.
I have no problem factoring short term needs into my analysis. As I explained in the above example, if you have 2 players that relatively evenly matched, short term need can certainly swing that total benefit in favor of a slightly lesser player.
Finally, I just disagree with your logic about being forced to reach. Last year Dallas took Dez even though they needed safety, OL, DL, etc. Will Dallas be forced to reach for a safety this year? No one thinks so.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Apr 5, 2011 6:51 PM CDT up reply actions
one other point to add.
while I’m agnostic on what’s the superior draft strategy, long-term or short-term, I do think in the draft pick trade market there is an arbitrage opportunity. In plain english, you can benefit by trading current picks for future picks.
there are more teams that are playing for the short term because of career risk (win next year or be fired) than teams that play for the long term. Teams that can play for the long term can take advantage of that.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Apr 5, 2011 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions
100% with this point
I love trading down to get future years picks the way New England has done, but again, that’s s a strategy for teams that win year in year out.
www.bloggingtheboys.com
Flood The Block Radio, every Tuesday 730p on www.rocktheflow.com
--The Poster formerly known as KDP.--
I only argue with people whom I hold great respect for their opinions.
doesn't that prove my point though?
Dallas took Dez instead of safety, OL and DL… guess what are needs are this year? Safety, OL, DL.
Meanwhile, we added Dez to a prolific offense, did our offense get better?
www.bloggingtheboys.com
Flood The Block Radio, every Tuesday 730p on www.rocktheflow.com
--The Poster formerly known as KDP.--
I only argue with people whom I hold great respect for their opinions.
guess what 'our' needs are
www.bloggingtheboys.com
Flood The Block Radio, every Tuesday 730p on www.rocktheflow.com
--The Poster formerly known as KDP.--
I only argue with people whom I hold great respect for their opinions.
oh, and I know you weren't stating a preference to one approach over the other
I just don’t agree that your computations prove BPA to be the better long term approach. Just a difference of opinions mi amigo.
www.bloggingtheboys.com
Flood The Block Radio, every Tuesday 730p on www.rocktheflow.com
--The Poster formerly known as KDP.--
I only argue with people whom I hold great respect for their opinions.
But absolutely no one is worried that Dallas will be forced to reach for S or DL this year. your claim that it forces you into worse future draft picks isn’t supported by the evidence. .
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Apr 9, 2011 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions
+1
Drafting for need is not ONLY a short term strategy- the two aren’t mutually exclusive. It also fills a need, as you assumed, for the next 10 years. Without doing the research, I’d be willing to bet that most of the past SuperBowl champs have built their teams through the BPAPN model and THEN moved to taking BPA once their roster is established.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Football is an incredible game. Sometimes it's so incredible, it's unbelievable."
- Tom Landry
How do you find tangible evidence around an activity, playing professional football in the NFL, when none of them have any historical performance data to show?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
It would seem prudent to me
at least in this year’s draft to draft the position with fewer highly rated players early in the first compared to a position with many more highly rated players, ie, since there are only 3 OT rated high enough to go in the top 20, shouldn’t one be taken, then in the second take a DL since DL is stronger and certainly has more depth.
This argument actually irritates me.
“There are great DL therefore we should draft OL.”
Great DL will be drafted early. You actually have to decide if you want to take a great DL or if you think Tyron Smith is great, a great OL. But don’t get to cop out and say ‘oh, I’ll get a great OL and a great DL in the 2nd round’. You won’t. You’ll get Marcus Spears 2.0. So own up to it.
Here’s some key metrics for Heyward (the most frequently mentioned 2nd round DL pick) and Spears.
Sacks
Spears: 1, 3, 6, 9
Heyward: 2,3,6,4
Vert:
Spears: 31
Heyward: 30
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Apr 7, 2011 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Funny by your metrics none of the DEs are worth drafting except Watt.
Sacks
Spears: 1, 3, 6, 9
Heyward: 2, 3, 6, 4
Jordan: .5, 4, 6, 5.5
Watt: TE, Scout Team, 4.5, 7
Bailey: 5, 7, 7
Wilkerson: 1, 7, 7, 9.5
Vert:
Spears: 31
Heyward: 30
Jordan: 31
Watt: 37
Bailey: 36.5
Wilkerson: 26
As you can see by the metrics all of these guys are pretty similar. In fact only Bailey and Watt have the combo of size, production and vertical. So it is not a cop out to claim there is pretty equal talent at 3-4 DE in the 2nd and 3rd rounds than in the 1rst.
Wars are won in the trenches and we need some new big uglies!
IMO
Those metrics would be more accurate if you included broad jump aswell, as it relatively common for guys to score mediocrely in either the broad or vertical, and well in the other and become a good pass-rusher.
http://cowboysanalysis.blogspot.com/
yes. I agree with that.
If Von Miller, Peterson, or Watt are on the board I think Dallas should draft them.
If they’re gone then I’d be happy to see an OT or a trade down.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Apr 10, 2011 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions
We need OL
The chances of drafting a great starting LT in this draft in the second round is minimal.
We have a better chance of drafting a very good if not great DL in the second. If Dareus were to fall to # 9, I can see drafting him, but he won’t. Short of Dareus, I’m not sold that any other DL is worth drafting at #9, even Fairley. So, yes, I think it’s prudent to draft Smith or even Castonzo or Carimi at #9 because that’s our greatest need. We can draft DL in the 2nd or 3rd for that matter because it’s not that great a need. I don’t view Spears as negatively as you do. I wouldn’t be unhappy if we resigned him. He’s never going to amass a ton of sacs, but he’s great against the run. In the 34, DEs just don’t in general get sacs. Bottom line we must draft OL in the first. All other positions can be addressed later.
I understood your argument the first time. And told you I thought it was irritating. did you think it got less irritating by repeating it?
We have a better chance of drafting a very good if not great DL in the second
Here’s what I said was false about your argument. Who’s this “very good if not great DL” that Dallas is going to draft in the 2nd round?
Heyward? Give me some evidence that suggests that Heyward is any better than Marcus Spears?
BTW, I wouldn’t say I characterize Marcus Spears as negatively. I characterize him realistically. Most DEs, 3-4 or 4-3, don’t get sacks. Consistently productive pass rushers are very rare (in the 10 years there are only 3 players who have managed 50 sacks in their first 5 years). That’s why if you have the chance to draft one you might want to think real real hard about it.
Maybe Dallas will draft Tyron Smith and Houston will draft JJ Watt and we can get a real life comparison of what produces the most benefit for a team with a top 5 offense and a bottom 5 defense.
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Apr 9, 2011 8:12 AM CDT up reply actions

by 

























