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Around SBN: On Hazards And Hulks And Tigers, Oh My!

Drafting for Sufficiency

OCC wrote a foretelling piece during training camp about how to predict what teams will be successful and which would not in the coming season.  It was called "O-ring theory".  The theory states that instead of comparing Brady vs. Manning, instead, one should compare the worst players on the individual teams.  The theory goes that with such great talent in the league and dozens of brilliant minds studying every frame of tape from every game like the Zapruder film, that teams gain great leverage from taking advantage of weaknesses.  So as the season plays out it is generally the teams with the fewest weak links that rise to the top.  That it is better to have a team full of "good" than a team with a bimodal distribution of talent.

Star-divide

When we look at the 2010 Dallas Cowboys, it is a team with enough talent to beat anyone but so many holes they could, and did, lose to anyone.  How did the games play out?

Opponents double-teamed Ware and Ratliff to take them out of the game and dared the weak links to try to preassure the QB - the weak links couldn't.

Opponents threw deep passes to DeSean Jackson and Mike Sims-Walker and dared the Cowboys safeties to cover their men - the weak links couldn't.

Opponents attacked the right side of the O-line with reckless abandon and dared the Cowboys to try to hold the line  long enough for Austin and Dez to exploit them - the weak links couldn't hold the line.

Now let's look across the league to the New England Patriots.  They are a 14-2 team, we are a 6-10 team.  Why?  Was it the talent?  Let's look at the top-5 players on each team:

Cowboys:

Romo
Ware
Ratliff
Austin
Dez

Patriots:

Brady
Welker
Mankis
McCourty
Light

Which list would you rather have?  Seriously.  Sure, maybe you'd rather have Brady than Romo.  But who do you want running routes - Miles Austin or Wes Welker?  Mankins is a great guard but he's not the factor in games Ware is to be sure.  Is anyone in Dallas crying that we passed on McCourty in 2010 to pick Dez?  I don't think so.  Hey, I'll trade you Matt Light for Ratliff!  What, you don't want to make that deal?

The Cowboys have more top talent than the Patriots.  Why can't we be 14-2!

O-ring theory.

Where's the holes on the Patriots team?  Where do you want to attack?  They have a team that has consistent talent across the board.  Every position has a player in it that is sufficient for NFL caliber play.

How many players on the Cowboys team would you rate as insufficient?

Colombo, Davis, Gurode, Ball, Sensabaugh, Brooking, Hatcher, Spears, Barber, maybe the cornerbacks.  There's a lot of guys that aren't sufficient.

So what do we do?  We need to start making those positions sufficient.  We get a guy like Michael Huff that won't be going to pro-bowls but can handle the free safety position.  We don't draft a top talent like Tyron Smith to instead get extra picks to draft sufficient guys at 2 positions instead of just 1.

If the Cowboys can bring the weak links on their team up to the level of sufficiency in the NFL, they're going to be a scary team.  This is a team that has the top talent to beat anyone in the league -- but it can only do so if it can eliminate the weak links that undermine its ability.

Another user-created commentary provided by a BTB reader.

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Fixed and thanks man!

The Ohio State Buckeyes are your Sugar Bowl champions... and for the 7th year in a row Michigan still sucks.

by Blue Eyed Devil on Apr 1, 2011 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well said

Belichick does it better than anyone. His formula is to have a great head coach, himself,
a great coaching staff, and the best people to evaluate talent that fits his systems. He combines these with the uncanny ability to trade veterans for top draft choices, parlays draft choices into multiples picks and even though he occasionally misses during the draft, he still comes up with enough talent to keep him in the playoff hunt year after year.

by pfloyd1 on Apr 1, 2011 8:53 PM CDT reply actions  

"Where's the holes on the Patriots team? Where do you want to attack?"

Rob Ryan sure as hell figured it out, didn’t he?

But I don’t mean this comment to lessen a great article. If you went game by game, you could make a case for weak links doing bad things. Just start with Washington and Alex Barron. I’m not just talking one specific holding penalty, because if we’re looking at one play we could blame it on Romo or Choice just as easily. I’m talking about the whole game.

by jazzbo251 on Apr 1, 2011 9:20 PM CDT reply actions  

Rob Ryan did it with 3 top tier CBs. That shut down players like Welker

by AustonianAggie on Apr 6, 2011 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

rob ryan shut down the patriots is a meme that needs to die.

the patriots produced 21 pts, 372 yards, and almost 5 yards per play. that is average to above average performance. it’s not surprising that a great offense going against a great defense would produce average performance.

what was surprising is how well the Jet’s offense performed. 28 pts and almost 8 yards per pass attempt, by a team that was bad passing the ball.

by Fan in Thick and Thin on Apr 6, 2011 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

+1

Also, Brady pretty much just had a bad game, he wasn’t under much pressure throughout.

http://cowboysanalysis.blogspot.com/

by Ben24626 on Apr 6, 2011 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

He was confused I think, he makes a lot of presnap reads and decisions.

 Are we still talking Rob or Rex?

If you take a great offense and make them look average its not shutting them down? Well its still a heck of a job hehe

by G_SWAG on Apr 7, 2011 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

whoops … that explains it. I was thinking the NJT playoff game … not the Cle game

by Fan in Thick and Thin on Apr 7, 2011 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Also, I wonder if the Packers might have been a better example.

Solid team, decent talent, great QB, but great depth and cohesiveness. Much has been made of their injury issues last year, and deservedly so, because it shows how all 53 players on that team make significant contributions.

by jazzbo251 on Apr 1, 2011 9:33 PM CDT reply actions  

I think one of the packers strong points

would be a great coaching staff that really teaches the players on how to play in the NFL..of course they could go 8 and 8 next year and prove me wrong again..not to mention key position players are gettin kinda old on the defense that is

by 0k on Apr 2, 2011 12:04 AM CDT reply actions  

Fair enough

Does that change the calculus? Are you taking Mayo over Ware or Wilfork over Ratliff?

The Ohio State Buckeyes are your Sugar Bowl champions... and for the 7th year in a row Michigan still sucks.

by Blue Eyed Devil on Apr 2, 2011 1:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Actually, it does

What you need to do is look at how many players fall into that, “oh yeah, definitely a stud” grouping and how many are JAGs. Maybe even look at the “that guy sucks” category too. For instance, in the trenches where teams are defined and where games are won and lost, how many of the guys (Free, Kosier, Gurode, Bigg and Colombo) on the O-line and D-ine (Spears, Rat and Igor) would rate highly. Now compare those groups to the Pats. I count 4 on the Dallas O-line and 2 on the D-line. That’s 6 of 8. Now, find me 6 Pats among their 8 that would rate similarly.

There are too many guys on the Dallas roster (many of whom collect bigg paychecks) that have not played well enough to be considered more than a JAG.

"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."

- John Wooden (God rest his soul)

by 5Blings on Apr 5, 2011 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Actually, what you just said is the whole point of the article I wrote

haha

The Ohio State Buckeyes are your Sugar Bowl champions... and for the 7th year in a row Michigan still sucks.

by Blue Eyed Devil on Apr 5, 2011 11:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

im telling you

no Wade, equals a different team
mark it down
Garrett and Ryan are like french fries and cheeseburgers, perfect match

by Archie Barberio on Apr 2, 2011 1:50 AM CDT reply actions  

im telling you

no Bill, equals a different team
no Dave/Chan/Barry, equals a different team
no Jimmy, equals a different team
no Tom, equals a different team
mark it down

and, one day, no Jason, equals a different team
mark it down

Weltschmerzen.

by tanstaafl on Apr 2, 2011 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

My only concern is

One JJ = more of the same

We live life forwards and understand it backwards

by tdships on Apr 3, 2011 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

My only hope is

You’re wrong. My nightmare’s you’re not.

Weltschmerzen.

by tanstaafl on Apr 3, 2011 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Preaching to the choir

Could the D in big D take a BIG jump in pressure with an elite bookend blitz ’backer (Miller, Quinn) or a lockdown corner (Asomugha, Peterson)? Absolutely. Could that same effect be had with more pocket pressure from the DE position, and a FS that can both line up the secondary and do more than push a WR out of bounds after 17 yards & a first down (Weddle or Huff)? Probably. Yet with Free, Kosier, Spears, Hatcher, and even Sensi free agents whenever that process starts and Willams, Davis, MBIII, and maybe Newman on the chopping block that could be as many as 7 or 8 (Ball and Igor should not start ever again) spots that need starter ability. With a trade down and a couple more picks in the first four rounds you address both lines within the first 40 and still get a shot at a G, S, LB, CB, or DT that has a legit chance to contribute this year and/or challenge for a starting spot.

by Dealataunt on Apr 2, 2011 1:57 AM CDT reply actions  

Well, this is strange.

First, FTT writes a post about BPA vs. need, then you come along and write a post about O-ring theory. Why is this strange? Because I’m writing a post for Monday combining those exact two topics.

by One.Cool.Customer on Apr 2, 2011 6:16 AM CDT reply actions  

Exciting, I can't wait!

That article on O-ring theory you wrote really scared us back in August because we knew we had holes on our team. Then the season ended up playing out just like that, a failure of a season with even the Titans and Jaguars feasting on our weaknesses.

The Ohio State Buckeyes are your Sugar Bowl champions... and for the 7th year in a row Michigan still sucks.

by Blue Eyed Devil on Apr 2, 2011 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

I know

It was more like One Cool Nostradamus.

Great post, BED. Although I recognized the value of One Cool’s theory at the time, it was interesting looking at how it played out in the season.

Don't believe everything you think.

by dunkman on Apr 4, 2011 5:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

In this discussion - can't help but cite the Football Outsiders maxim:

‘Successful teams build for depth, not a collection of stars and scrubs’

DAL under JJ in the 2000’s has been the antithesis of this.

We live life forwards and understand it backwards

by tdships on Apr 3, 2011 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yep

Antithesis’ Antichrist’s Baby’s birthdate was September 9, 1995.

Weltschmerzen.

by tanstaafl on Apr 3, 2011 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

…rather have Brady than Romo

Funny stuff. Every time it’s mentioned.

Brady ain’t all he’s cracked up to be. Yes, he’s good. Damn straight he plays on a good team and plays as part of it (most of the time).

But, preferable? Give me a freakin’ break.

Weltschmerzen.

by tanstaafl on Apr 2, 2011 11:55 AM CDT reply actions  

btw, BED, good take on the situation

That OCC comes up with some good stuff. Sometimes.
Gotta keep him humble.

Weltschmerzen.

by tanstaafl on Apr 2, 2011 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

Dead certain there's no stat on it

It’s certainty. Period. It’s plain, simple fact. OCC’s humble.
And it’s got nothing to do with anything said or from the outside.
Then again, I could be wr-wro…

Weltschmerzen.

by tanstaafl on Apr 2, 2011 6:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Very well said

Good post. Personally, i do think T. Smith provides us two positions since he’ll be a swing tackle (as opposed to Carimi who i think is only RT – or at least not as good a swing tackle) but there is a very strong argument on increasing as many posiitons as possible and it comes down to what extra picks we can get and what we do with them.

"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Football is an incredible game. Sometimes it's so incredible, it's unbelievable."
- Tom Landry

by Kegbearer on Apr 2, 2011 2:48 PM CDT reply actions  

Yeah, I like...

the potential at swing, the guy’s possibilities, even while arguments for and agains still hold validity in my eyes. Just glad I ain’t making the call. Now, if Jerry Jason would like some opinion based in ignorance from the peanut gallery, I’d say…

Weltschmerzen.

by tanstaafl on Apr 2, 2011 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Right

and even if Dallas takes a T first, it doesn’t mean they can’t shore up those weak points.

Don't believe everything you think.

by dunkman on Apr 4, 2011 6:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

well written

and Rec

and just to point out the obvious, Does anyone else notice that of our top 5 players, two were first round picks, one is a 7th round pick and the other 2 are UDFA…..sigh

He who laughs last, thinks slowest
Well.....my days of not taking you seriously have certainly come to a middle
"Pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name"

by BigBad Joe on Apr 2, 2011 6:52 PM CDT reply actions  

don't forget about this guy

colin kaepernick….super sleeper if he falls to the 3rd …i want this guy as in my pet cat for the future…and would be a steal in the 3rd ….but some sources put him in the bottom of the `st or top of the 2nd

by 0k on Apr 2, 2011 10:58 PM CDT reply actions  

ehh

Drafting for sufficiency is not a good plan at all. Teams not having a lot of holes is a natural by product of consistently having solid drafts and thusly building talent through said drafts and having stability in place to coach up acquired players to their peek proficiency.

Which is the key word here, stability. When you look at teams with no glaring needs they’ve had a system in place with a singular vision for years. In fact their systems are so strong that they can even pass the torch between coaches and mantain a high degree of success. The Steelers with Tomlin, McCarthy in Green Bay, Dungy retiring from Indy, Belichik losing a lot of high profile assistants.

Look at Sean Lee and Dez Bryant, we had to trade UP for them not trade down and because of it our rosters are set at those positions for the foreseeable future if Lee stays healthy. Scratch RILB and WR 1 off the list. The holes on our rosters are a matter of not drafting with a vision, with a singular identity. Some years we hit on late round guys and some years we hit on earlier round guys. What would our roster look like now if we could consistently do both? Heck, some years we wind up with Roy Williams and David Buehler. We need to eliminate that.

To me this seems like a shortcut, but there are no shortcuts. The best way to draft for efficiency is to draft well for a number of years, and this means BPA. Fill your roster with the best talent available and it’ll work itself out over the long run. Why do those teams have great depth? Its not because they traded down for extra picks but rather they were more efficient with the picks they had and ultimately their coaching maximized that talent. Does it seem silly to want Tyron Smith over Carimi and a 3rd? Time will ultimately tell BED and I understand where you’re coming from I really do. How about instead of an extra 3rd we focus on actually drafting a good football player with our third. In five years if Tyron Smith is a Pro Bowl LT and you’ve got a Colombo clone and a JAG instead then we’ll have two players to upgrade instead of one pillar for years. Its almost counter intuitive at that point.

Of course like you say we could get another second rounder this year, that definitely intrigues me. But the other things start coming out at me. We absolutely need a first round talent at OT we are in agreement there. What type of line do we have? Well we have athletic OL and less spry mauler OL. The template we’ve established with Doug Free leads m to believe that Jason Garrett wants athletic linemen to execute his offense. We need a vision, we need to know what we want from the players we take. I love it too, we need smart tenacious guys on D (vis a vis Lee), athletic linemen who can still runblock and handle speed rushers on the edges (Free) and we want speed and strength at our offensive skill positions. That’s our identity now.

That’s the Cowboy Way.

by G_SWAG on Apr 3, 2011 1:11 AM CDT reply actions   3 recs

awesome post G_SWAG

Where is that Double rec button?

Von Miller+Demarcus Ware+Jay Ratliff+Rob Ryan=Nightmare for Opposing OC's

by I am Ironman!!! on Apr 3, 2011 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

Strategy vs. Valuation

In finance we have the concept of valuation models. Say I want to buy a company that is researching cures to diseases. There’s a chance they’ll develop the cure for cancer and make billions, a chance they’ll make a cure for a more benign desiese and make millions, and a chance they won’t develop anything that works and make no money at all. How do I decide how much to pay for this company? Well, you create a financial valuation model that weighs all the factors and comes up with a price.

Similarly, this is what NFL draft scouting is all about. They’re trying to valuate players the same way institutional investors valuate companies. Wes Buntings grades are very much like a “price” for a player, a value; some players are an 8.5 others a 5.8. What you’re saying is “just create a better valuation model than anyone else and you’ll be fine!” And that’s kind of a well… duh, statement. Every team is trying to be the most precise they can be with their player grades. If you can do better, cool. But most teams have players roughly graded the same way. You don’t see one team picking players in the first round that the rest of the league thinks are 4th round players. You don’t see consensus top-10 picks fall to the 7th round even though they turn out to be busts just as bad as a 7th rounder. The valuation is about as good as it’s going to be in the league, it’s hard to get a competitive advantage on valuation. If you could scout way better than anyone else, that’s cool, but that’s not really a strategy to go to your scouts and say “SCOUT BETTER!”.

I am talking about draft strategy. You could have the exact same scouting department and the exact same board in front of both the Patriots and Jerry 1.0. The exact same board Jerry 1.0 would trade up and get the splashy player, the Patriots would trade down and get two solid players.

The argument I am making in this post is a strategy argument. It says that this Cowboys team has stars and scrubs on it. If you look at teams that are successful over the long-term their strategy isn’t to add more stars but to eliminate the scrubs. I think this team has enough stars to win a superbowl but it needs to take all the positions with poor play and bring them up to average rather than trying to make one position exceptional. That’s the strategy that is going to be successful on draft day.

The Ohio State Buckeyes are your Sugar Bowl champions... and for the 7th year in a row Michigan still sucks.

by Blue Eyed Devil on Apr 3, 2011 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

It's essentially what Jimmy Johnson and Parcells practiced as well

“churning the bottom of the roster”

Don't believe everything you think.

by dunkman on Apr 4, 2011 6:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

Almost totally agree

We can’t become a Detroit and draft 4 WR’s in the first, so need comes into play as well as BPA. Basically though, youv’e indirectly indicted Jerry’s role as GM for our draft failures.

by pfloyd1 on Apr 3, 2011 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

First...

You’re talking long-term and BED’s talking short-term. Trick’s getting the strategic and tactical to mesh into a cohesive plan. We’ll see if JG’s a magician along the lines of the original Triplets methinks you’ve been studying. Correction, not magician, student of the game. No magic, just hard work.

Weltschmerzen.

by tanstaafl on Apr 3, 2011 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Best expression of the ideal yet

Tactical components are all supposed to support the strategic objective. Our problem, as fans is we see Football as the critical objective whereas ownership sees is as a tactic. The strategic objective for JJ is commercial success – i.e., maximize profitability, value of the franchise.

To most of us simpletons, or perhaps idealists, that means make the product successful and the commercial side will be so as well. As we’ve seen, that is not necessarily the case.

We live life forwards and understand it backwards

by tdships on Apr 3, 2011 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly! Linemen aren't easy to make into PR success stories.

"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."

- John Wooden (God rest his soul)

by 5Blings on Apr 5, 2011 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

+1
Student of the game. No magic, just hard work.

"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Football is an incredible game. Sometimes it's so incredible, it's unbelievable."
- Tom Landry

by Kegbearer on Apr 3, 2011 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree with 50% of this.

-continuity and the ability to develop/coach players is key
-good drafting is key

The holes on our rosters are a matter of not drafting with a vision, with a singular identity. Some years we hit on late round guys and some years we hit on earlier round guys.

I think this is overcomplicating the analysis. Bad drafting is bad drafting. It’s not an issue of identity or vision. Stepnoski, a small undersized center, meshed just fine with Nate Newton a road-grader. Why? They were both good players with good coaching.

Once you agree that the problem is the quality of drafting, then things get clearer. For example,

Does it seem silly to want Tyron Smith over Carimi and a 3rd?

If Dallas was drafting well you’d have confidence that they’d only make that deal if they were confident that Carimi would be a good player and that they’d be able to turn the 3rd round pick into a productive player as well.

by Fan in Thick and Thin on Apr 3, 2011 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wrong

It’s precisely “an issue of identity or vision”. Specifically, of vision. Of having clear-sighted, well-reasoned definition and articulation of a specific objective. Of having a structured plan to achieve said objective. Of adhering to said plan and not descending into tactical reactionism to the point it supplants the strategic guidelines and parameters of the plan.

Drafting, coaching, team sports affairs, franchise buisness, the lot, are merely constituent elements of the “problem”. Regarding the one in question, drafting, your “why” answer is merely part of the equation, not complete unto itself. That “good player, good coaching” was part of a plan, not mere chance circumstance. To solve a problem you need a plan.

Simplified, if you don’t define endpoint B, it likely won’t be achieved. All else, all consituent elements suborned to the ovcerall strategy and directed towards achieveing said objective, can be defined, refined and put into action once that is done. Otherwise, it’s a chaotic hodgepodge wandering aimlessly in search of an mirage-like “goal”.

A plan with no vision, no defined objective? I’d laugh if it wasn’t so freakin’ sad. If I hadn’t seen that BS situation one too many times. If I didn’t see it these past many years with respect to this franchise and team.

If the vision and objective is to make the Cowboys more valuable financially, garner attention and such non-sports/athletics-related things, things’re a-ok. If there’s any other ultimate objective, something’s wrong, there’s a problem.

Plan to solve it without vision? Fool’s errand.

Weltschmerzen.

by tanstaafl on Apr 3, 2011 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think JJ had a vision

But he did not get the right people to bring it to reality. That goes both for coaching, talent evaluation, and player progression. Though I do agree that vision and team identity are fundamental needs for a franchise (and greatly effect the aforementioned deficiencies we’ve faced)…Garrett and Ryan should mesh well together and get Jerry to listen while supplying his same blind optimism (and giant checkbook).

"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Football is an incredible game. Sometimes it's so incredible, it's unbelievable."
- Tom Landry

by Kegbearer on Apr 3, 2011 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Also meaning...

good drafting is not only the result of the player’s you draft, but how well the team maximizes their potential and helps them reach their ceilings – by teaching them well and having players match team schemes/identity

"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Football is an incredible game. Sometimes it's so incredible, it's unbelievable."
- Tom Landry

by Kegbearer on Apr 3, 2011 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think you see a vision too

It’s just not a very good one. Stack the offensive skill positions, overvaluate current players on the O-line, take risks on boom/bust guys with character concerns, save money at safety and pour it into CB. There’s been some consistancy around here. Not all consistancy is a good thing.

The Ohio State Buckeyes are your Sugar Bowl champions... and for the 7th year in a row Michigan still sucks.

by Blue Eyed Devil on Apr 3, 2011 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's plan-related, tactical stuff, not vision

The consistency you’re refering to is evidence of tactical reactionism supplanting a strategic plan. Unless, of course, the plan’s objective wasn’t to win on the field.

Weltschmerzen.

by tanstaafl on Apr 3, 2011 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Strategy is about tradeoffs

Strategy is about doing one thing to the exclusion of another.

Steelers – Choosing to go with high-character guys only is a strategy.
Cowboys – But also choosing to take risks on risk/reward guys with character concerns is a strategy.

Cowboys – Choosing to put all your money into CB at the expense of safety is a strategy
Steelers – Choosing to invest money in safety at the expense of having mediocre CBs is also a strategy

The Ohio State Buckeyes are your Sugar Bowl champions... and for the 7th year in a row Michigan still sucks.

by Blue Eyed Devil on Apr 3, 2011 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Steelers – Choosing to go with high-character guys only is a strategy.

Yeah, I’ll hand it to ya, that Ben’s a real character.

Please don’t plan a war. Unless I’m on the other side.

Weltschmerzen.

by tanstaafl on Apr 3, 2011 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

“Please don’t plan a war. Unless I’m on the other side.”

That’s pretty unneccessary. I thought better of you than that.

The Ohio State Buckeyes are your Sugar Bowl champions... and for the 7th year in a row Michigan still sucks.

by Blue Eyed Devil on Apr 3, 2011 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

BED,

You’re going to burnout trying to talk logic.

Your point about strategy vs. valuation was well articulated. The problem isn’t with your writing.

by Fan in Thick and Thin on Apr 3, 2011 7:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I guess

Might’ve been taken the intended way in person. Tough without knowing someone even then sometimes. Has to do with look in eye and tone of voice.

It was a tad smart-assed regarding our differing comprehension of what constitutes “strategy”, yet was written without malice or insult intended.

As I offended you, please accept my apology.

Weltschmerzen.

by tanstaafl on Apr 3, 2011 11:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

I hear you man, it's all good

The Ohio State Buckeyes are your Sugar Bowl champions... and for the 7th year in a row Michigan still sucks.

by Blue Eyed Devil on Apr 4, 2011 12:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ok, thanks, so instead of smart-assed...

Your examples are concerned with tactical decision-making, and their inherent trade-offs, within the realm of unit strategy, a subordinate component to an organization’s overall strategy based on its vision. The discussion of strategy was at the level of vision-defining, call it, corporate strategy, not the lower-level subordinate strategies which arise as a result of a structure and plan based on said vision and associated articulation of it.

For reference, look into the realm definitions and scopes of corporate, business unit and operational segmentations and their associated strategy levels. I prefer military straightfowardness in definition, so if you will permit me, call it strategic, operational and tactical. The realm of context for your examples is the intermediate, or operational, charged with putting in place and organizing those components necessary for the implementation of tactics based on strategy. In other words, interpreting and converting strategic intent to tactical capability. Hopefully, that strategic intent has been fully defined and adequately articulated so as to avoid problems regarding its achievement by subordinate levels of an organization. It’s confusing having the military and business structures use the same word (ie. operational) to refer to two different levels within an organizational structure, but my point is your realm of context is the intermediate, not the topmost level (ie. strategic). Once again, the use of a word utilizing it’s multiple meanings, in this case strategy/strategic, can be confusing.

There’s strategy and tactics within all units of an organization at various levels and with respect to their operation. I think we’re simply talking in two seperate contexts. Reading back through your comments in this post I noticed one stating you are talking “draft strategy” in a reply to G_SWAG. I’m not talking draft strategy, but the strategy that will define what draft strategy will be. A higher-level one. And it’s precisley that strategy that makes it a vision-related difference of opinion beyween myself and FiTT on the subject of “bad drafting”.

My original comment-reply to FiTT’s assertion about it not being an issue of identity or vision was and is based on my perception that there has been no consistently adhered to plan based on vision and an associated defined strategy for this team for some 15-16 years. I say that regarding the sports (or team) side as opposed to the business (or franchise) side. The effects and consequences of that are precisely the draft “problems” each of you and others refer to. It permeates the entire organizational structure and its operational dynamic.

That plan is not JG’s tactical (gameday) plan. It is not the team and franchise’s operational decisions, such as draft, FA and the like (JJ/JG/Cisky’s plan/wants). It is not the business and marketing wonder we have witnessed under the Jones ownership.

The strategic plan for this organization need consider and bring about the effective collaboration of all consituent elements in attainment of it’s objective (or goal).

So what’s the goal? Increasing the bottom line? Or winning SuperBowls?

If it’s both, I see a problem challenge at the strategic, or topmost, level. It’s directly bound to the vision, Jerry’s vision. All the rest we debate here isn’t going to get fixed till that one is. And it depends entirely on whether he sees it or not. Then, just hope, it’s not all about the bottom-line, because if it is, expect the status quo to be maintained.

Or I did could just say… – but that’d be smart-assed.

Weltschmerzen.

by tanstaafl on Apr 4, 2011 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

I’ll explain myself in 75 words.

-Strategy: you decide passing well and stopping the pass are the 2 most important factors to winning

-Tactics: therefore you decide to gravitate toward pass-oriented players (DL who can rush the passer, OL that are good in pass protection, etc).

You can have the right strategy and right tactics all day, but if you draft Anthony Spencer over Lamaar Woodley you’re screwed.

by Fan in Thick and Thin on Apr 4, 2011 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Would Spencer be more effective if drafted by Pitt and would Woodley be less successful if drafted by the Cwoboys? Isn’t there a factor for how well the team prepares, coaches and uses a prospect that actually determines whether it was a good pick? Does vision and team identity not play a role in those factors that makes one team find more success with their draft picks than another team? Do the Patriots always pick the best layers in the draft, or make the most out of the prospects they draft?

"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Football is an incredible game. Sometimes it's so incredible, it's unbelievable."
- Tom Landry

by Kegbearer on Apr 4, 2011 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Of anyone drafted in the last 3 drafts

I guarantee you Spencer was given the most attention to succeed. 1st round pick, bookend to Ware, replacing an aged expensive player. He sat on the bench for 2 years working on his technique. There is every possible organziational reason to rally behind Spencer and get him ready.

Spencer got the best training this coaching staff had to offer.

Now is this coaching staff significantly better or worse than any other? That’s probobly an unknowable variable. I don’t know of any way to rank the ability of a team’s coaching staff to get player prepared. It’s pretty much a black box.

The Ohio State Buckeyes are your Sugar Bowl champions... and for the 7th year in a row Michigan still sucks.

by Blue Eyed Devil on Apr 4, 2011 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

And then there's this...
Now is this coaching staff significantly better or worse than any other? That’s probobly an unknowable variable.

Two words: Dave Campo

I rest my case.

"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."

- John Wooden (God rest his soul)

by 5Blings on Apr 5, 2011 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's the value of good coaching and that is interest that compounds over time

The fact that LeBeau has been teaching the same principles forever is what helps vets teach to rookies.

How can that happen in Dallas when the plug gets pulled every 4 years?

Of course they maximize potential. It’s a model that creates its own inertia.

"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."

- John Wooden (God rest his soul)

by 5Blings on Apr 5, 2011 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well said Blings

"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Football is an incredible game. Sometimes it's so incredible, it's unbelievable."
- Tom Landry

by Kegbearer on Apr 5, 2011 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

If the method is proven a good one

ie. Pitts and LeBeau, it makes teaching it easier as well…..your more apt to take someones word and work as gospel when they have the bling to back it up

He who laughs last, thinks slowest
Well.....my days of not taking you seriously have certainly come to a middle
"Pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name"

by BigBad Joe on Apr 6, 2011 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Andy Reid lacks a bling but his philosophy endures

You could make the argument that he’s been successful just the same.

I think it has more to do with tenure.

"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."

- John Wooden (God rest his soul)

by 5Blings on Apr 7, 2011 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Conversely

You can draft all the Harrison’s Ware’s you want, yet with the wrong strategy and wrong tactics, well, I’ll let you figure the stats on individual performance and W’s.

It’s not an either/or. Both player and plan are required. And that speaks to the need for a higher-level strategy, one founded on vision.

We haven’t had one that I can see. You have your take, I have mine.

Weltschmerzen.

by tanstaafl on Apr 4, 2011 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

and right on cue …

5 year study of NFL draft ….

Overall: No team in the league has netted fewer current starters out of the past five drafts than the Cowboys, who saw their record plunge to 6-10 in 2010. Cornerback Mike Jenkins was added to the Pro Bowl in his second season, but his play fell off dramatically in 2010. The only other Pro Bowl player chosen during this time was kicker Nick Folk, who has since been released. Spencer, chosen 26th in 2007, has been a solid player who has started the past two seasons. Receiver Dez Bryant caught 45 passes for 561 yards and six touchdowns as a rookie before spending final four games in injured reserve.

by Fan in Thick and Thin on Apr 4, 2011 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sure looks like strategic failure to me. Determine the reasons for what you call “bad drafting” . That it exists, I’m not disputing. It simply does. I want to know why and solve that. Couldn’t care less about the stats on it, proving or disproving its existence, player performances and all the rest.

Feel free to get back to me with what you find if you discover the “why” it exists. Till then, like I said, you have your take, I have mine. I maintain, in this case, the post-1995 Cowboys, it’s a lack of strategic vision and what comes from such a thing.

This quest you’re on is too close to deterministic game theory to hold my interest. Intrigues you, but me not so much. Let’s face it, FiTT, we’re never going to see eye-to-eye. I’m not looking for a mathematical model or set of deterministic functions to evaluate the game of football or its players.

Weltschmerzen.

by tanstaafl on Apr 4, 2011 8:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Woodley led the Big Ten in sacks his in 2006, not Spencer. Woodley won the Lombardi Award as the best lineman, offensive or defensive, in the country, not Spencer. Woodley had the 38" vert, not Spencer.

by Fan in Thick and Thin on Apr 4, 2011 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

point being, that unless Pitt’s coaches got to Woodley at UoM, Woodley just might be the better player.

by Fan in Thick and Thin on Apr 4, 2011 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

He was pretty awesome in college.

Between him and Alan Branch (who has never lived up to his potential in Arizona) that D-line was nasty. Not to mention David Harris was the ILB and Leon Hall was playing CB. That team undoubtedly should have won a championship considering its offense also had Chad Henne, Mario Manningham, Mike Hart, and Jake Long. But alas it was not meant to be. Shawn Crable decided that Troy Smith’s helmet was just too available not to hit with his helmet (and subsequently allow them to get the clinching score).

/still very, very bitter
//imagines what Michigan could have been in the mid-2000s if Lloyd had opened the playbook like he did against Florida in 2007
///wipes away a tear

If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels

by Creasy729 on Apr 4, 2011 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Coming out of college Ben did not have any character concerns.

Wars are won in the trenches and we need some new big uglies!

by BigDinLA on Apr 3, 2011 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

It was a wise-crack, not an indictment

Play on the word “character”. I wasn’t being serious, guys. Despite Roethlisberger’s having left himself open to things being taken negatively regarding his character. The double entendre just adds to the twist in my eyes.

Weltschmerzen.

by tanstaafl on Apr 3, 2011 11:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

I've still questions regarding what Jerry's vision and ultimate objective...

were from the very beginning. From the transfer of ownership point onwards.

The “he did not get the right people to bring it to reality” speaks to planning and implementation, not vision.

What ransom might I pay to know what thoughts flitted through his mind that night he first owned the Cowboys, laying on that mid-field star staring up through the hole-in-the-roof?

I’d say that’s a vision-seeding moment.

Weltschmerzen.

by tanstaafl on Apr 3, 2011 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

No doubt

I am not saying JJ’s vision was any better than the execution. And while financial success and "Star"dom are certainly on Jerry’s agenda, I do think he tries really hard to make the team on the field win Super Bowls. He just hasn’t been successful in making his vision into a reality. IT’s one reason drafts after Jimmy haven’t seemed as great, because less was done with the talent. In the end I agree with you, we need better coaching to create a team identity and draft with vision. You can have the best ingredients known to man and still cook up a stinker if you don’t mix them right and use and prepare them properly. I guess I completely agree with you…since in the end, having vision and follwing a plan built around ateam identity would mean:

If Dallas was drafting well you’d have confidence that they’d only make that deal if they were confident that Carimi would be a good player and that they’d be able to turn the 3rd round pick into a productive player as well.

To draft well would mean the prospects fit our team scheme/needs and are trained well under good coaching and used properly and thus succeed on the field. So good drafting and fan confidence that they’d make the right deal in the draft derive from the same thing.

"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Football is an incredible game. Sometimes it's so incredible, it's unbelievable."
- Tom Landry

by Kegbearer on Apr 3, 2011 9:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

I miss Tex, Gil and Tom

So much. Especially Tex, strategically.

Weltschmerzen.

by tanstaafl on Apr 4, 2011 12:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

Man

This is the best bantering yet.

by pfloyd1 on Apr 3, 2011 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

It all boils down

to thus far an inadequate replacement of Jimmy Johnson with the same power as Jimmy.

by pfloyd1 on Apr 3, 2011 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

You won't see a Jimmy-equivalent

The situation’s completely different. The context’s changed significantly. When Jerry bought the Cowboys they were a $140-150mil franchise valuation and losing on the order of $1 million per month. Jerry needed significant on-field turnaround to increase the business’ cash flow in order to cover loan payments. Turnaround in short order. He staked his fortune on this team in buying the franchise. He needed someone he believed could turn the team around on-field as he dealt with the business side. The situation and individuals involved, at a particular point in time and within a specfic contextual circumstance were responsible for the latitude of action or “power” Johnson had under the Jones regime.

It’s simply nowhere near the same circumstances anymore. That world’s long gone and Past.

Weltschmerzen.

by tanstaafl on Apr 4, 2011 12:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

+1

"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Football is an incredible game. Sometimes it's so incredible, it's unbelievable."
- Tom Landry

by Kegbearer on Apr 3, 2011 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Jimmy issue is the ultimate illustrator

Jimmy ran the Football operations and chafed when he felt JJ was infringing. Ultimately, it became too much.

Since then, no single person in the organization had ultimate authority over Football Ops other than JJ. Coaches may have had it on game day, but that’s only because JJ knew the ridicule from appearing on the field with a headset would hurt the commercial side of the business. The closest was Parcells, but Jerry let even him know, not too subtly, with the TO acquisition.

We live life forwards and understand it backwards

by tdships on Apr 3, 2011 7:22 PM CDT reply actions  

Missed something

An entire post on insufficient, weak link players, and not one Roy Williams mention??? Ah, the bitterness of irrelevancy…

by greatwhitenorth on Apr 4, 2011 7:44 PM CDT reply actions  

haha

Bobby Carpenter has to be so happy Roy Williams came along to replace him as this team’s biggest bust.

The Ohio State Buckeyes are your Sugar Bowl champions... and for the 7th year in a row Michigan still sucks.

by Blue Eyed Devil on Apr 4, 2011 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

everything else is good in the article though!

by AustonianAggie on Apr 6, 2011 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

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