The Draft That Could Have (Or Should Have) Been
by 5Blings on May 3, 2011 1:16 PM CDT
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PrintThey say hindsight is 20/20. But they never say anything about foresight. What a bunch of wussies "they" are.
Fear not, fellow Cowboys faithful, because I am back with another post-draft re-do. A tell-all about how I would have played the cards given how the draft ACTUALLY went. You'll notice that all of the players I pick here were available at the slots that I picked them in so there's no goofyness about potential trades that were unlikely. I also didn't include potential signees in Free Agency or undrafted Free agents because the draft needs to be viewed on its own merits.
So, first things first, I want to be clear that I subscribe to the philosophy that when you have a glaring (and I do mean glaring) weakness in the trenches, you have to make a forceful and concerted effort to improve in that area, even if it means reaching a bit. I believe that you cannot survive with sub-par O-line play no matter how good your skill players are. The same is true for the D-line and the guys behind them. Winning all starts up front in my book. It's anything but glamorous, but the outcomes of building out from the lines are usually positive.
Now, about this whole "right kind of guy" stuff? Pffffft. I'm not going to pick a guy like Kenrick Ellis who approaches drug tests like Ricky Williams, or the next Rae Carruth, if I can avoid it, but let's be honest, some of the guys who were centerpieces in the Dallas dynasty were guys who probably would not qualify as the "right kind of guy" with the current regime. We'll leave that for a future rant. First and foremost, I only look at guys who can help us win. Once I have that short list, I look to see if they're a dumpster fire off of the field (a la Pacman Jones) or in the locker room (as in the case of T.O.). If they pass those two litmus tests, the next thing I look at is the "Jimmy test" aka DID THEY SHOW THEY COULD DO IT IN COLLEGE? If so, they then get rated according to their physical ability, intelligence and aggressiveness (most of you know how I feel about this part of the player's DNA). That's how you make it onto the 5Blings board (yeah, and screw you, Cisky...watch and learn!).
As it pertains to this iteration of the Dallas Cowboys, our Achilles heel, going back to 2007 and our epic playoff fail against the Giants and seemingly ever since, has been our offensive line. It lacks nastiness, smarts and cohesiveness. Call me crazy, but in my world, Dallas has to fix that problem once and for all.
In round 1, I would not have hesitated to trade down and acquire Jacksonville's 2nd round pick as I see some interior linemen likely to be there when #49 comes up. Pick #9 for #16 and #49. Done deal.
With pick #16, I take the draft's most NFL-ready offensive lineman in OT Anthony Castonzo. Castonzo is smart, tough, and while more athletically limited than Tyron Smith, he has tremendous experience stoning some of the best pass rushers in the FBS, good feet and enough length to man the blind side and allow Doug Free to flip back to Right Tackle, where he played admirably in 2009. ‘Nuff said.
With pick #40, I'd have no choice but to take FS Rahim Moore to come in and hold down one of the safety spots. The plan would be to sign a veteran to man the other spot or, if nothing good materialized there (people often forget that you're no more likely to land the player you want in Free agency than you are in the draft) and Rob Ryan was comfortable with it, let AOA play the other spot. While Moore is no Troy Polamalu, he's a huge upgrade over anything Dallas has on the roster. When BTB'ers like to say that it was a poor safety class, let's not forget that there was probably no safety in the entire NFL that was worse than Alan Ball last year and Sensabaugh may have been a close 2nd.
Using my freshly acquired pick #49 from Jacksonville, the O-line transformation continues and I take OL Ben Ijalana. This guy, while playing OT at Villanova, was a horse and showed outstanding technique after having kicked inside at the Senior Bowl. Big and strong with good feet and 36-inch arms, Ijalana is the Anti-Kosier and reminds me of Ben Grubbs in how he plays. Sold!
At #71, the bounty that is OL William Rackley is sitting there for me to take. Is it really possible that I could come out of this draft with a starting OT and two potential starting OG's? Indeed. Rackley is another guy who has experience playing on the edge, dominating small school competition while at Lehigh, but should make a smooth transition to Guard and be a fixture there for some time.
At #110, I can't pass up WR Edmund Gates from Abilene Christian. This guy wanted to play hoops and just wasn't good enough. He went out for football and, in his first practice, ran like Wally West (one of my favorites) and proceeded to catch everything in sight. He looks like a cross between Mike Wallace and Eddie Royal. Dallas has enough of these 6'3" 215-pound WR's and has needed a smaller, shiftier edge receiver who can force opposing safeties to backpedal and can run them out of the play. He's my guy.
At #143, I look at SS Ahmad Black and while I doubt he'll be the next Bob Sanders, I think he could be a terror on specials and, after all, this is the 5th round. Alan Ball is a cornerback and trying to force him to play safety is just unfair. Black is a heady player and, despite his size, can contribute in dime packages early. Who knows? Maybe he is a Sanders clone. Either way, Moore, Black and AOA are a decent young trio that Rob Ryan can work with.
At #176, I like David Carter as a developmental 5-technique. He has not been coached well but he's stout at the point of attack and has some nice movement for a guy his size. He won't make people forget Cam Jordan, but he will certainly make people forget Marcus Spears...not that it will be that hard to accomplish.
At #220 and # 252, I'm fine with both Chapas and Nagy. The likelihood of getting gems here is never high, but both of these guys are distinct possibilities. I don't know if Garrett likes Gronk or not, but I do. I think Nagy has a much better pedigree than guys like Phil Costa and he's going to look like Stephen Hawking compared to Andre Gurode.
In the end, we get
OT - Anthony Castonzo
FS - Rahim Moore
OG - Ben Ijalana
OG - Will Rackley
WR - Edmund Gates
SS - Ahmad Black
DE - David Carter
FB - Shaun Chapas
OL - Bill Nagy
Now, did we fill every need? No.
Did we completely overhaul the O-line? Hardly.
Did we get 9 potential starters? Not likely.
Did we come up with players who have a higher likelihood to provide an upgrade at key positions of weakness on the O-line? I think so.
And there you have it. We won't know how good or bad these predictions might be for a few years, but here's your chance to step into the wayback machine and change 2011's draft into one that makes you...happy.
Have fun. And GO COWBOYS!!!
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This draft would be fine, I think they considered something like this,
but felt T Smith was far better than the other 1st round OTs.
Isn't that the rationale they used for taking Jason Williams and Robert Brewster instead of Phil Loadholt or Sebastian Vollmer?
I think I have a problem with what they “feel” when it comes to OL picks.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
hmmm...
“I think I have a problem with what they "feel" when it comes to OL picks.”
A Big part of “They” is now gone. (W. Phillips).. JG is now the head coach and with that his opinion means more and definately influences overall selection. I think with his closer connection to the scouts and with his new “influence” on the overall selection, we are comparing apples and oranges. (“They” of old and now the new)
by AmericasTeamm on May 3, 2011 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe, maybe not
You assume that the HC has more say in that process than I do.
The revolving door of coaches every 4 years in Dallas suggests that the only constant in all of this history of poor drafting acumen is Jerry.
Again, many of these picks were surprises and not considered great value at the slot they were taken.
How is that a departure from 2009?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
The value was fine
just because you weren’t expecting them doesn’t make them bad value.
Tyron and Carter were taken around where everyone thought. Look up reports for Murray and you will find anywhere from 2nd to 4th. Look up for Arkin and they range from 4th to 5th or so. Thomas was a steal.
They were surprising for sure.
and therein lies my overall consternation
I love the draft. I love the idea of what the draft represents because I think restocking the cupboard through the draft is how greatness can be attained by this team.
But I’ve grown weary, and I don’t think I am alone in this regard, of constantly being ‘surprised’ by Dallas’ picks and draft strategy (that term is used loosely when it comes to Dallas).
Asking someone to believe that this draft is somehow radically different than the the ones we’re used to, in spite of the fact that most were surprised with every pick after #9, is asking more than my empirical-evidence-centric mind will allow me to believe.
I can rationalize the Cowboys’ picks as having “value” in the same way I’m sure a believer in fundamentalist Islam can rationalize their belief that Pluralism is synonymous with the devil. But that doesn’t mean either of those beliefs are rational perspectives.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Change we can believe in
Not just a political slogan.
OL in the 1st round – never happened before
No draft trades/games – when was the last time that happened
Drafting all players with high character, strong work ethic, usually team captains, etc. – Not a common draft trend/motif.
I think this draft was considerably different and certainly showed signs of (finally) having a plan and longterm vision in mind for the team and culture.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
I'll give you the OL in round 1 point
…but the rest of it may be a flawed approach for those that believe talent, experience and demonstrated high performance against their collegiate competition is just as big a set of requirements as the others.
Could be a locker room that loves itself and says “yes sir and no sir” but lacks the oomph to needed to outplay their opponents.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Is that still you?!
From past comments and posts I would certainly think you were one of those (like me) that believe a TEAM that follows their assignments, trusts in their teammates, and play their heart out for their coach, teammates and the game they love, would always do better than a team with a few Stars that don’t have great character and can’t rally a team together.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
LOL! Yes, still me
…and yes, I’d take 53 guys who left it on the field over 53 divas any day and every day.
But I also believe that often times, you have three types of guys to choose from;
A – One who plays like every play is his last day on earth but is Rudy in terms of talent.
B – One who is an amazing talent but you feel could be a detriment to the team because of character flaws.
C- One who plays hard and is a very good, maybe not elite, talent.
I think you have to have a mix that looks something like 75% C, 15% A and 10% B.
Agree?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Yes and No
Yes, you always have to have some superstar power, but I think every player on the team (for it to reach excellence) should be a hard worker and team first player. Even in the 90’s dynasty, Irvin might have been a diva, but he was always about the team first. I don’t think Garrett passed over a superstar for a team player, just made sure to concentrate on the latter.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Was Deion a hard worker?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Deion
When I think 90’s dynasty, Sanders really isn’t in the picture. Sure he got to the team in ‘95 for the 3rd SB, but that was without Jimmy Johnson as coach and after the Dynasty team peaked. Perhaps mercenary signings like him are reasons the dynasty didn’t last longer…perhaps he is the exception to the rule…perhaps for all his swagger the rumors are true and he was actually a hard worker.
In any case, he wasn’t there when JJ took a terrible team and made them Champions, though he arrived in time for the 3rd SB and the decline. So I don’t consider him part of the 90’s dynasty anyway.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Do you think he was an asset?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
On the field, he's more than an asset. However,
Off the field, in the locker room, he was a liability. As was reported back in the day, and in the “Boys Will Be Boys,” Deion created a culture where the lesser talented players started following him around. The hardest workers on the team: Aikman, Irvin, Moose, Woodson, Haley, and Emmitt, to a lesser degree. But all the backups, and non star players started to not take practice seriously, thought they do like Prime do, and sleep in film room, and show up late to meetings, etc… That’s what gave this team a sharp decline each passing season following 1995. Before Deion got to the team, the team was one of the hardest practicing teams in the league. All the starters (except maybe Nate, and Erick Williams) took their careers, and their craft seriously.
The other thing that started the demise, more than Jimmy Johnson leaving, was free agency, and the loss of Haley and Novacek. Losing guys like Ken Norton Jr, James Washington, Mark Stepnoski, Alvin Harper (ever since he left, they struggled to fill #2 Wr spot). Also, once injuries ended Haley and Novacek’s tenures, we struggled to replace them as well.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
I think Jimmy leaving was the catalyst...
people being allowed to sleep in film rooms is a coaching issue, not a player issue.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
It's a self-responsibility,...
self-respect issue. So coaching in a far broader sense than football. It’s building people, teams, not players. That the player may benefit’s an objective, no doubt, but it’s about far more than those individuals. It’s about a winning team.
Jimmy was and is more than a football coach.
I’ll revise your statement. Jimmy was the catalyst. Relative to and for a Cowboys team that remains brought up in argument to remember “the good old days”.
Or you just cut some LB who is sleeping and point is made
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
And sometimes, on those rarest of...
Occasions, you have: A+ – One who plays like every play is his last day on earth (or at least, on the field of play and in that locker-room) who’s an elite talent, detrimental character flaws or no.
I can think of 2, recently. Similar in so many respects, position, team quality, work ethic, slightly different in perceived character yet neither so flawed as to be significantly detrimental. One, I know, had a slightly acrid odor when fired up.
btw, yes, agree but I’m reserving 2% for Irvin/Rice A+.
btw II, why is it when guys like Keg/you, or some BTB person-A/B combinations, debate here it’s angel/demon, point/counterpoint or “yes/but” bouncing back and forth rattling in my poor beat-like-a-drum skull. Rhetorical.
btw III, when you get to see those A+, savour it, every moment. And when you witness paired or trebled, enjoy the moment, lock it away for a lifetime memory. They aberrate the 2%. see what I did there ;
On the point about those gems who have it all...
yes, I agree completely.
But those are few and so far between.
Who are those guys today? Those elite talents who are by far the best at what they do and still possess the kind of unquenchable thirst to be better than they are…
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Ware, Witten and Romo....
to name three, Ratliff I would say is one….Maybe Miles too….
With the 9th Pick Dallas Selects Tyron Smith...Romo Weeps in Joy, and Bennet says"I might get to go out in the Pass Pattern now!"
by I am Ironman!!! on May 5, 2011 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Let's be fair
Romo isn’t known for his work ethic.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Well, now that I think about it, you're right abouit that...
LOL!
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Yeah, I've never heard anything bad about his work ethic
You aint been around in awhile, maybe you haven't heard........I don't shine shoes no more
And does that mean he doesn't work hard?
When you say “isn’t known for” you are simply saying that the media hasn’t made a big deal about his work ethic. In no way does that mean he doesn’t work hard.
Furthermore, how possible do you think it is that a UDFA QB could become a Pro Bowl selection without working hard?
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
I'm saying he had issues swirling around him about his commitment levels at one time
Do you dispute that?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Still does
Every time he picks up a golf club, goes out on a date (esp if with another gal now, eh) or isn’t seen throwing a pass (no, the football kind).
Sensationalist lame-stream media BS. Always was. JaMarcus Russell Romo ain’t.
Depends who you ask.
If you asked the media, they thought so. If you read the interviews of his teammates, there were no problems in their eyes.
And please, don’t bring up the trip to Cabo seriously unless you have similar doubts about Jason Witten’s work ethic.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
Cabo was a bad decision
The work ethic stuff was not just a media thing, it was coming from at least one source in the locker room.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Who, Patrick Crayton and Terrell Owens?
Those guys and Martellus Bennett, have been the idiots to pop their mouthes off on this team since Romo’s been QB.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
I dunno
Did they ever flush out who deep throat was?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Brad Johnson has always been the suspected culprit.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
"F" that guy
He could hardly carry his helmet, but had no problems endorsing his checks.
To think that guy won a SB . . . . . only possible in a team sport.
Wait, I think your memory is fuzzy.
The leak in the locker room was not giving out info about Romo’s work ethic, but rather the fact that many WRs thought Romo was not getting them the ball enough. That hardly speaks to his work ethic.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
No
It was a reproter who cited a locker room source that called Romo’s conditioning and practice habits into question.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Well I guess I was wrong.
Regardless, I think most of those concerns have constantly been rebuked by his teammates. Needless to say, I am not concerned about his work ethic. He after all did just lead a team workout like Breesus.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
Know what I like about you?
You’re not afraid to say you are wrong.
Takes stones.
Props, Creasy.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I try to keep even-keel.
And if I am wrong (which will definitely happen), then I have to own up. There is no other way to have stimulating and genuine conversation.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
Dirk Nowitzki = Absolutely the most underrated basketball player of all-time
You're a good man, Creasy
A bit too statistically-minded for this game we call football, but a good man nonetheless.
:-)
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Put differently, I am probably too evidence-oriented for this hobby we call blogging. Hahaha.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
Dirk Nowitzki = Absolutely the most underrated basketball player of all-time
You just need to satisfy some of those urges on the Baseball side
Football is different.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I actually hate baseball.
Too slow and uninteresting for me.
And still, I don’t think football is impossible to quantify in a meaningful way. Is it hard and do some of the stats thrown out require some grains of salt? Absolutely. But even you can recognize their importance in showing trends and patterns. I mean after all, a lot of the stats that you detest are based on the core stats of yards and points. Stats, I would point out, that even you claim to be important.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
Dirk Nowitzki is absolutely the most underrated basketball player in the league right now. He is one of four players all-time to average 25+ points and 10+ rebounds in the playoffs.
Wrong. It was Mark Felt.
Ohhh, you meant the sensationalist dirty rat fink, muck-raking troublemaker, Mr Irrelevant, not deep throat…
Fuzzy is what comes after a few Oban's
05:40 AM ET 01.20 | According to five sources, several Cowboys offensive players lost respect for Jason Garrett for his failure to corral quarterback Tony Romo in practice. Romo, sources said, often forced throws in practice and often did not treat practice work consistently. The quarterback’s practice habits were so bad, sources said, that they affected the way he played in games and could have factored into the offense’s problems.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Can you provide the link?
Not saying I don’t believe you, but I would like to read the report myself.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
Multiple sites
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
He is. The problem is we only hear about his off the field life.
The guy was an un-drafted free agent, who parlayed that into a starting QB job with America’s Team. In order for that to happen, you have to bust your ass, otherwise, you fall by the wayside, especially in the NFL. The following things benefited him the most:
1) Having Sean Payton mentor him during 2003, 2004, and 2005.
2) Having the opportunity to watch Quincy Carter spectacularly piss away his career after 2003.
3) Watching guys like Drew Henson, and Chad Hutchinson, guys who scouts say, had they stayed with Football over Baseball, would have been first round picks, flame out.
4) Having Drew Bledsoe to watch during 2005 and parts of 2006 to see what to do and what not to do. I’m sure Bledsoe didn’t go out of his way to teach Romo things, but I’m also sure Romo’s one of those guys who has learns a ton by observing the subtleties and nuances.
5) The other things that helped: becoming a starter for a playoff team, and having Garrett to work with once Sean and Parcells left.
A quick note about point #1: I used to live in SD, and I was well versed in Drew Brees’ tenure with the Chargers. From day 1, people were divided on him. He came to a team with not much talent around him, except for LT his first 3 seasons. He also had Doug Floutie undermining him every step of the way, and he had veteran players like Junior Seau, Rodney Harrison, and Marcellus Wiley, openly throwing him under the bus in favor of Flutie and is stagnant style of play. Even after Brees bounced back and had Pro-Bowl caliber seasons in 2004-2005, the Chargers listened to the fans and shipped him out of town.
Guess who his head coach was when he signed with the Saints? That’s right, Sean Payton. Ironically, before they signed Brees, the Sean wanted to trade for Romo, Jerry gave them strong arm offer. I bring this up because both Romo and Brees are similar types of QBs in their height, weight, and arm strength.
If you look at Brees’ career before he went to the Saints, and since he’s been a Saint, it’s two different careers. Additionally, the Saints, even with all the #s Brees was putting up in 2006, 2007, and 2008, still only made one playoff appearance. What got them over the hump in 2009 was hiring Gregg Williams to coach their defense, and signing FS Darren Sharper. He turned their defense around into a unit that got sacks, turnovers, and defensive tds. The result, the offense wasn’t forced to carry the team every game. Before his arrival, their defense was decent at getting pressure, but couldn’t make big plays, creating turnovers and getting defensive tds.
Romo’s level of play from year to year, since he’s been a starter his very good, Pro-Bowl caliber. His numbers back it up. Winning %, and QB Rating establish this. Sure, he’s only 1-3 as a starter in the playoffs. But football is a team sport, everyone has to do their job.
Romo’s biggest crimes to date, bobbling a field goal snap in 2006; being unable to make Terry Glenn and Jason Witten hold on to ball against the Giants, while the defense was non existent in 2007; throwing a late pick against Pittsburgh; being unable to over come the defense allowing 300 rushing yards to Baltimore in the last Texas Stadium game; being unable to play 22 positions at once in the 44-6 debacle; and let’s not forget he was unable to block for himself, and unable to keep the defense from getting torched and mailing it in against the Vikings.
Until 2010, Romo’s never had a losing season, or a season ending injury. A big part of our problems was a combination of the the players on the defense, the person calling the plays, who also comes up with the predictable schemes.The offense has to carry the defense every season since Romo’s been the starter, save for one really dominant end of the season stretch in 2009, where offense, and defense all did their jobs, until Brett Favre treated treated us like he does Jen Sterger in his fantasies.
I think Rob Ryan is going to make the same type of impact on this team that Gregg Williams had on the Saints. Whether it’s this year or next season. Another example of this quick turnaround on defense: Green Bay’s defense was not good when Dom Capers got there in 2009. In just two years they became Super Bowl Champs, in much the same way the Saints did (explosive offense, and a defense that can get sacks, get turnovers, and score tds).
In conclusion: making Romo the blame for our troubles is misguided. For some perspective, chew on this: Peyton Manning in his first 6 playoff trips: 1999 (L Tennessee); 2000 (L @ Miami); 2002 (L @ NYJ); 2003 (2-1); 2004 (1-1); 2005 (L Pitt). I think we all know how that turned out.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on May 6, 2011 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nice
Suspect reasoning sprinkled throughout, but understandably Cowboy fan damn-fine-standing-up for Romo.
On your last point, Romo’d better have more than one ring 12 years in. And I ain’t talking wedding. Or he’ll be remembered by a large segment of this fickle fanbase as barely adequate.
There have been reports that
Jason Williams was a Wade guy. Also the scouts are telling reporters that they have much more say under JG than Wade
by somebodyquiet on May 3, 2011 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Can you help me with a link to what the scouts are saying?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I remeber reading this on the mothership after the 2009 draft. Something to the effect, that the guys they took on defense were all Wade's "PET CATS"
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
Brewster was Wade's pet cat?
Come on…
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Yeah I think thats probably not possible.
Wade wouldn’t have liked the competition for food.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
So THAT'S why he liked those lighter Nose Tackles!!!!
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Wade had nothing to do with the offense
Wade wanted Jerry to pick CJ2K but got out voted by Garrett & Jerruh for Felix. i don’t blame Wade for all the problems bc it was obvious Jerruah was way to involved
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth! Garrett & Ryan working as a team should create a physical environment at Valley Ranch that shows up on gameday.
Do you think that is no longer the case?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Hahahaha
I got tears in my eyes, first it was ebecause I was laughing and then I realized I was crying. . . . . Jerry will always be involved. Gotta take the good with the bad, because we don’t really have much of a choice.
They tried to trade down and didn't
To assume that it was our choice not to or that the ‘Skins accepted less seems like a stretch. But still, assume you got the offer and you accepted it…I have been a big fan of retooling the OLine, but Smith is more athletic than Castonzo and Arkin seems more mobile/athletic than Rackley (perhaps even Ijalana) who is a mauler. I think Moore is a reach at #40 AND wasn’t the “Right Kind of Guy” considering recent reports. Meanwhile, we still have no depth at ILB after your draft (Bradie, Keith, and Sean Lee…unless you ocunt Leon W.), and no extra slot CB (Alan Ball is #4), not to mention Garrett is forced to rely on Choice on 3rd downs when clearly (from last year) he doesn’t want to. In any case, I like the real draft more.
I also hope you have a sense of humor when I explain that Garrett has a vision for htis team and after reading this post said “Quit grabbing at my t!t”
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
I never lose my sense of humor
I only hope his vision puts winning above all else, including the idea of surrounding yourself with people you “like”.
I’m not buying the Arkin argument yet. It seems like they tried to outsmart the world (again) and may have missed out on value that was falling.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Yes, only time will tell
But I don’t think it is a stretch to think that Bruce Carter was rated higher on their board than Ijalana. It doesn’t surprise me that Murray would be higher on their board than Rackley and Moffitt (who also don’t seem to fit the OL vision Garrett has), so in teh 4th I like the Arkin fit. A mobile OL who was dominant LT in a small school and comes with all the intangibles.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
I heard they removed moore from their board after his interview
by somebodyquiet on May 3, 2011 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions
That could be true
…but you have to wonder if this team’s new regime would have nixed a Michael Irvin in a similar interview.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Irvin was ALL ABOUT football and the team and improving and achieving greatness and playing physically, even in college. I think he would have scored well in the new “intangibles” column.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
I disagree
Irvin was (and is) a big ego guy and clearly, that appears to draw negative reviews from JG.
I’m convinced guys like Irvin, Lett, Haley and others would never have been on a Garrett roster.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I don't live in the hypothetical world.
Irvin was then, this is now. Apples and Oranges dude.
So you agree or not?
I am confused.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Never's a long long looong time
‘89 Irvin? 2011 Garrett? I know it’s possible, think it’s even more probable than not.
Till longer-term evidence is in on JG’s tendancies when given this authority/responsibility, I’m not going to take this one draft’s “character” and run with it to any conclusions, barely even any suppositions, other than the very very vaguest guesswork kind.
Time may prove JG to have a significant comprehension of the human dynamic and how to use it in team-building.
Or not.
Uhh no, Irvin himself said he would practice running routes over and over after practice and JG would be the one throwing to him. I’m sure if we heard that about Dez wed be ecstatic.
Why do you assume that practice habits are the single determinant?
Rahim Moore is a team leader and a film / practice nut yet people keep saying he wasn’t JG’s type of guy.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Well I wasn't there and I can't say what happened.
But he apparently did not come off very well in interviews and didn’t look good in workouts when he went to visit the Cowboys.
This was said before the draft. I don’t know what type of leader he is, but that’s what was reported.
AFB Condensed- New name, same flavor.
Doesn't leave me much to work with, does it?
:-)
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I think that's what Garrett said
HAHA
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Practice habits aren't...
The single determinant. Seriously doubt they are in from JG’s perspective either. Don’t know the man personally, so tough to make that call, but consider…
A man, by working with, associating with in more than a superficially transient manner, another individual may be influenced, even learn, from that other individual. Not in a direct teacher/student or similar dynamic, but merely by the expereince itself. And the lesson will evolve, arise, come from within, not from an external source telling him, pointing it out, trying to force change of thinking or perception. And are not change from within, lessons learned by experience, and such things the most profound?
So, taking Garrett/Irvin, say JG (non-star, non-big-time recognition, etc) didn’t think highly of Irvin (star, brash, wild personal life, drugs, what have you) when they were team-mates. Say the practice thing and what it may have allowed each of those individuals to take from knowing and spending time with each other under those circumstances opened the door to thughts, then or down-the-road, in each of them that changed the man (either of them) from within, showed them people and your perceptions of them aren’t always right, or need to be adjusted, allowed for, that some things don’t detract from the whole or the worth of a person, can be a should be lived with for a greater purpose, a greater end.
Extremely difficult to explain, so I apologize if that superfical attempt to explain the point is confusing or fails its intent.
Simply, the point is, Garrett may have been changed by knowing and working with Irvin, even if he had a negative opinion of such people as Mike beforehand, even afterwards, but JG, being a bright guy, I figure his personality type sees and learns from his experiences in life and he wouldn’t write-off an Irvin or the like.
Not likely.
I’m not aware of evidence suggesting otherwise, but allow for it and remain open to any you or other may have. Thus, get that article you mention below done.
so why does a guy, who is a team leader, a good guy and a film rat not pass the JG test?
I need to know.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Why do you "need" to know?
Let’s look at the board and see what grade this “guy” got. Maybe he “passed” but not with as high a grade as others. So the question becomes “why is his grade not higher”. If he’s not on the board it’s the same question. If he wasn’t even considered from the get-go it’s “why didn’t he merit consideration”.
Show me your board, JG, then I may have a few questions for ya.
Are you sure your “need” to know isn’t partially emotionally influenced? Not wholly, but partially. Some of your reason for questioning is undoubtedly inquisitiveness seeking information to better understand, to discover the why’s of things and enable reasoned estimates (guesses) as to what the future may hold. But is it in its entirety?
btw, It’s “want” not “need”.
Everything is emotionally influenced
It’s all based on fandom, the root of which is “fan”.
Fanaticism is not a logical, dispassionate view of the world.
I’m a fan of the Dallas Cowboys.
If someone does something that I think is counter-productive to the goal of them being the best, I have, continue to, and always will, react with emotion.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Wrong
I’m not arguing against the points you mentioned, not against emotion, not against fandom, none of that. You’re right. And right in your final statement’s “rightness”.
I like that you and others react with emotion. It shows you’re human. Only and, more importantly, thankfully.
Everything isn’t emotionally based. Math and logic? Nope, sorry bud, you’re wrong. In saying that, am I slipping to some statistical ‘dark side’? Nope. ‘Cause stats and logic have little to do with each other much of the time, as it’s humans using them. Just one point there on that. The other’s, you should see me when a game’s on or when I’m ranting about the Cowboys. There’s emotion.
As you know, I downplay stats (and sometimes logic, because of what my eyes tell me
So as it pertains to football, it’s difficult to ever let logic dictate how I react to my Cowboys.
Kinda like the reaction when I look at Bar Refaeli’s latest bikini shoot. It’s almost biological.
Besides, that would be no fun.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
As you know, I downplay stats...
Yet seldom logic. As it pertains to our beloved Cowboys I let logic dictate how I react. Emotionally, with heated passion, as befits a love in life. Since I’m only human.
Kinda like the reaction when my emotions get the better of me. Oh wait, it is.
And it’s fun beyond description.
I can't ever look at the Cowboys dispassionately,
i love watching them play,get a buzz (without alcohol) ,listened to games for years until i saw highlights then live games in the UK.
you guys are spoiled imo ,you see them all the time,i got snippets until the internet.
but in saying that Blings i can criticise with the best of them.
this draft imo,was a long term draft,things have changed.
Coach Garrett is the man to right our ship.
Davie Wilson
"how bout them cowboys"!!!
by scotscowboyfan on May 7, 2011 6:09 PM CDT up reply actions
I hope you're right
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I can feel it,
i know that’s irrational but the feelings there.
Davie Wilson
"how bout them cowboys"!!!
by scotscowboyfan on May 7, 2011 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Not irrational at all
How much of what we talk about on here isn’t a feeling?
My god, it’s FOOTBALL.
A sport where every stat seems misleading and every play could be a game changer.
Doesn’t work that way in any other major sport.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Had this feeling a long time ago,
A guy named Jimmy Johnson came onboard.
not saying it’s that again but culture change will help this franchise.
Davie Wilson
"how bout them cowboys"!!!
by scotscowboyfan on May 7, 2011 7:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Every coach that takes over
Brings guys in that fit his regime. Parcell and Wade did it though FA, but JG seems to be doing it through the Draft.
Yes, we may have left some talent on the board. No, I wasn’t in love with our picks when we made them. However, after reading about these guys and watching their film, I am excited to see what they will bring to the table in the next few years. Hopefully with Garret at the helm, we will have some consitency at the HC position for years to come and we can work to develop our talent effectively.
In previous years, we didn’t seem to have a system of checks and balances. With JJ, I think it is very imprtant to have this. It is also very important to have long term goals. I think JG will help create a more stable JJ, if that’s even possible, and help us focus on the future and obtaining the goals/rewards we seek.
I always say...
usually your first reaction to the pick is the right one.
You can’t be victimized by the Cowboys’ PR machine (kudos to Mister Dalrymple) after the fact and decide it’s a good draft.
Not with this team’s history.
I am starting to believe Ciskowski is another Larry Lacewell and, while I’d love find out I am wrong, the picks and how they’ve panned out don’t suggest I will be.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Typically, yes
In fact, my true thoughts were:
- - Smith – Hell yes, finally a legit chance at drafting a quality OT. I am no OL expert, but I saw the flashes of brilliance in an athletic 20 year old that works hard.
- - Carter – What the fuck? Although I don’t watch much ACC football. Checked out some film, thought he might be somewhat limited in strength. Wow his speed is amazing and I was really impressed at his “drop step turn” into coverage.
- - Murray – What the fuck? A RB, were the post 2010 draft projections for 2011 true? Wow we really just drafted DeMarco Murray. He is a stud and seems to have the maturity we could use out of our younger guys! I live in Oklahoma, so I am always more critical on local players i “really like” in college. I think Murray could be legit and Felix better work hard or he could lose the starting job sooner than later (see what I did there?)
The rest of the draft seemed to be the best guy available and quality guys on/off the field. Some young OGs to throw in the bunch.
I just really think that JG has to do it with Rookies, since he doesn’t have his own “pet cats” running around the league (since his career is so young).
Hahahaha
Nice numbering job, no?
Hope it doesn’t discount the thought process.
Not at all
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I had big problems with Carter and Murray
Just didn’t, and still don’t, make sense to me.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Murray I can understand
Will be interested to see what we get out of Carter. Hell, I am still interested to see what Lee can do in a full year.
Lee is another one who I wonder about
Can that guy make it through a full season without going on IR?
Knee this, shoulder that, concussion…yeesh!
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
yep, thats a big concern
And it kinda sucks too. Lee clearly shows an understanding and intuition for the game. He made as many highlights in little action time last year as Bradie James or Keith Brooking. He sees whats happening and attacks the play faster than either of them.
If Lee and Carter don’t pan out, we will almost certainly be reevaluating how we look at injuries.
Lee is injury prone...
but I don’t know if that’s true about Carter. My worry about Carter is that, unlike Lee who is a limited athlete but makes up for his shortcomings by using his ability to diagnose quickly and get a head start on his peers, he will not be able to overcome any loss of speed since he’s not viewed as instinctive or overly physical at the point of attack.
Now, Carter may not lose any speed which would make this a non-issue. But you have to be concerned.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Uhhh....no..
Irvin was a SWAGGER guy, and the eptiome of Garrets definition.
Irvin talked it and then exceeded his braggadacio with results at every opportunity. Locker room leader who would not be outworked.
His off the field problems prolly had more to do with the Miami culture that Jimmy Johnson brought with him to Dallas. I just don’t see Irvin going down the same route had Landry continued to run the team.
Right
Because Landry never had anyone on the team drink, party with hookers, do drugs and the like.
Really dude?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
You mean, the North Dallas Forty guys?
That said, have to agree that Landry/Irvin may have had different final results than Fire/Brimstone. The dynamic would definitely have been different. That is a fact, without it’s having had to occur.
But to say that Mike did as he did because of or not because of JJ coming to the Cowboys is supposition either way. To say he would have been better or worse in terms of off-field, on-field, the works under Landry or JJ is supposition. What happened, happened. The every detail being crucial to the unfolding of events, to circumstances arising and playing out as they did.
Just thankful they worked out as they did and I got to witness it.
The fact that you referenced an earlier post of mine brings a tear to my eye
You’re an officer and gentleman sir.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Nope. Neither. The reference suited my intent and was therefore done for selfish reasons, no other. Saying a lot in 2 words about the dynamic through the reference. In other words, I used you. Crying ain’t gonna change that or the fact I’m a heartless bastard.
I doubt it
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Michael Irvin was a lot of things. But the guy showed up to work every day at Valley Ranch.
One of the first to enter, and one of the last to leave. He practiced like he played. Everyone of his former teammates, to a man, will vouch for this, even Jimmy. As a player, his biggest screw up (not talking about off-field) was showing up late to the airport for the game against the Detroit Lions. Michael Irvin was the emotional leader of the team, he set the tone during practices and on game day.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
Loved Irvin
But I can almost guarantee you that if he came along today, JG would bypass him.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Agree to Disagree.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
to be honest though
these nfl players have total access to the media. They can put every thought on twitter, and if they say something inappropriate in a press conference, it will turn into a national scandal instantly. A non-PC remark will be a front page headline on ESPN, and with the numerous number of “unnamed sources” coming out of valley ranch, it would be hard to avoid.
I know this isn’t going to go down well, but I’m not sure a guy like Irvin, even with all his positives, would stick in today’s league, without being vilified and maybe even kicked off a team or two.
I think some teams have the culture to handle that kind of player
…which means they have the kind of coach that is an even BIGGER personality than any player.
Dallas doesn’t have that.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Relative to the current players or...
regardless of them? JG’s not an out-there, brash, radio-show-comment JJ kind of coach. Who’d it be, now, today, today’s squad, if not JG?
Those days, of those style coaches, may not fit the current world, the corporate sports business world. Shame.
Think back...
We are going to beat their rear ends.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I did
Notice the radio-show-comment mention.
You aren’t seriously suggesting installing him as the current Cowboys HC, are you?
No
But Dallas may need a larger-than-life HC to go all the way.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Dammit
Did I land us wrong? Does this wayback gauge say 1961 or 2011? Either way, let’s give the young fella some time.
btw, before you jump, not making the comparison that way, simply pointing out the same thing could’ve been said in ’61.
He had a COMPLETELY different pedigree
…and, sadly, the player ego thing was not nearly the issue it is today.
Back then, players appreciated the opportunity to play this game and be paid to do it.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
So'd Jimmy,...
Barry, Chan, Dave,…
Trick’s picking the right pony.
Ego’s always been part of this and all else. More apparent today because of the ever-shrinking global village communications-wise, celebrity-fixation and indulgence, many things. You know that.
Tom dealt with ego’s, Jimmy did, Barry did, each in their way, some successfully suborning the individual to the team, some not, some successful, some not. We’ll see how this situation pans out. It’s yet to be determined.
really?
Like the Steelers handled Holmes?
Like the Pats handled Moss?
Like the Eagles handled TO?
Obviously, I don’t agree. I know the above two don’t have Irvin’s leadership qualities, but off the field issues are treated differently in today’s league compared to 10 years. Guys with off the field incidents are thrown to the curb. If Ray Lewis had another incident, I doubt he would be treated the same way.
Goodell's actions notwithstanding, some teams CAN do better than others
More like how the Steelers handle Ben, the Pats handle Mankins and the Eagles handle Vick.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Oh please Ben is the Steeler's franchise, they weren't going to do anything
different story for wrs.
Vick has only been out of trouble for two years. TO looked like a perfect fit two years into his stay here. But I guess hes a decent comparison to Irvin – the “new” Vick of course. Still, the first thing Vick does wrong hes going to face a disproportionate punishment.
Actually no sure what you’re referring to with Mankins.
I don’t know – between the ego and off the field issues, I think the 24/7 media would be all over Irvin and it wouldn’t be a good thing.
You don't think they were considering trading Ben?
The acrimony between the Pats and Mankins was epic. After an interaction like that, how do you think a guy like JG would feel about the player?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I think they "considered" it
in that if any team wanted to mortgage two or more 1st round draft picks for a rapist, they’d hear them out. But I doubt they went out looking for trade partners. They’d be screwed without Ben. Possibly giving up multiple SB rings in the future.
Mankins’ situation was a salary thing. He didn’t ever state a problem with the coach or his other players (I think, I may be wrong), just the owner. It got ugly, but if lets say 5 years down the line Tyron Smith wants a bigger deal, and Jerry won’t give it to him (as unlikely as that is) and hes the best player on our OL, and liked by his teammates and a hard worker, do you really think Garrett wouldn’t want him? There is a difference between personal issues (Ben, Holmes, Vick, TO, Moss) with business issues (experienced by most players in this league outside quarterbacks).
Re: Mankins...I was wondering if he might be considered a "me first" guy in the era of salary caps
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
If the nfl cutting players due to their salary
is a “business move”, then what exactly is holding out to get a higher salary? San Diego let Vincent Jackson back in as well.
Its probably a case by case decision honestly. If you’re talking about a guy with more than a year left in his deal, thats a different situation, because you have to worry about well will this guy do this 3 years from now? is he worth the hassle?
With Mankins, theres nothing to suggest that once he gets paid he won’t go out and play hard. Thats very different from a guy who gets in trouble with the law who you’re not sure you can rely on to stay out of trouble.
Really? after all of the things he said about the team? the owner?
Not so sure, bro.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Do you think Garrett's...
Prioritized surrounding himself with people he “likes” above winning football games?
Shhhh...saving that for another post
:-)
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Keg...
where did you find out that they tried to trade down?
Can you post a link?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
in the presser on the dallascowboys.com
Said they had a deal in hand and couldn’t go through with it
Envy Us!!
Thanks
Seems like they fell victim to the worst possible draft crime: they fell in love with a prospect.
How far we’ve moved away from Jimmy’s principles in a relatively short time. It amazes me.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I see it differently
We finally have a plan that had to do with some specific players that fit Garrett’s vision (and future OL). We shall see if it was the right call, but I think it has been an issue that our OL was a mix of maulers and mobile/finesse guys, but it looks like Garrett chose one and is rebuilding the OL with that factor in mind to better fit his offensive gameplans.
We shall see
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
I agree with Keg.
Blings(and others) are not fans of this draft,and they are entitled to their opinion. IMO Jerry and the guys had a plan in place and followed it. I am ecstatic about this draft and feel it is the first of many well placed and thought out steps to return this team to glory. Love the Arkin pick,was raised not far from MO St(SMSU to me),guy has a mean streak. I think all the picks are good ones. BTW Keg,don’t bare it and I won’t grab at it :-)
Dallas Cowboys Rule!!!
by NVCowboy4Life on May 4, 2011 3:27 AM CDT up reply actions
really?
how about the drafts where they traded down because they thought their guys would be there, only to have the rug pulled out from them? ie 2009?
Execution and forecasting is part of the draft game
Just because they do it poorly doesn’t mean it’s the wrong thing to do. They just need to raise their level of performance here and the evidence (our draft history) supports that notion.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
But isn't that what they got hammered for in 2009?
That they didn’t make a move for Unger and instead tried to get “value”?
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
And don't forget Creasy
and we talked about it alot- the antsy feeling that caused the Cowboys to trade up when it came to Dez and Sean Lee BECAUSE of the Max Unger “carpet being pulled out from under us” Fiasco.
Those moves in the draft were repurcussions to the Max Unger “Fiasco”.
"Amongst the enemy's Lair, there will always be a DallasPalace!"
I agree. And Jerry clearly had that in his mind this year as well as a reason not to trade down.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
Let's be clear - they didn't make a move that was aggressive enough
They’ll pay dearly for Roy Williams but not an interior lineman.
That’s a philosophical problem in the war room and, frankly, they earned that criticism for not executing well AND not having a sound backup plan.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
http://sportsblogs.star-telegram.com/cowboys/2011/04/cowboys-tried-to-get-back-in-first-round-to-get-de-but-jones-said-the-price-was-too-high.html
Here’s one reference, 5B. I’m not sure it answers your question entirely because it doesn’t state the player(s) targetted, but since C Jordan and C Heyward were available at the end of the first, I think we can safely assume that either one was the target.
Thanks pfloyd1 (you need a nickname)
I was really looking for the trade DOWN that they turned down that kegbearer alluded to.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
eeeeehhhhhh
what’s up Doc?
‘crunch’
couldn’t let it pass
Pessimists say the cup is half-empty, while optimists say it's half-full. Well, isn't it both? Realist Larry, 2009
by Realist Larry on May 3, 2011 10:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Trade down
The war room waited until 45 sec to send in a name and were on phone calls during their alloted time. A few news sources claimed Jax was trying to trade up but in the end the deal was done with ’Skins instead of ’Boys. JJ did have this to say, though not sure I buy it. i think we either asked for more than the ’Skins did, or Garrett and scouts convinced him Smith was considerably better than the other OT prospects. In any case, JJ said:
Jerry Jones commented on the decision made on trading back in the draft or taking Smith at the ninth spot by saying, "We didn’t want to risk losing him," Jones said of not trading down. "I gave myself a test and that was can I live with the missed opportunity of a trade more than the decision of losing him. I can live with the missed opportunity. I couldn’t live with losing him."
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
My problem with all of this
is that, even with a trade down, you arent guaranteed to get Costanzo (or anybody else). What if Jax trades with us, takes Gabbert, then Washington accepts another deal from somebody else, and that team takes somebody “out of order”. That could create a domino effect of a few of the picks being different, and you may not end up with Smith or Costanzo. Is it possible that the Cowboys werent willing to take the chance of not getting one of these 2 guys, and therefore balked at Jacksonville’s offer? Absolutely. Which makes this whole point moot. And I’m sure some will say, “thats ok, we could’ve gotten a DE”. True, but then the “how in the world do we not end up with an offensive tackle” bashing would be un-Godly. I like your post, and its always fun to imagine the possibilites, but its impossible to do, because once one single pick is different from reality, anything and everything can change, so there is NO WAY to know who would have been available at any point afterwards.
by sportsfanatic21 on May 3, 2011 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions
It's called scenario planning
It’s how people like Warren Buffett run their companies.
There are a multitude of scenarios that can play out, but even so, it is a finite number of possibilities and great drafting teams know exactly what they will do in each and every one of those sceenarios to maximize the benefit to the team.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
That being said
maybe there was a plausible scenario in which they would not have gotten one of the players that they felt they truly needed. Hence, stay put, and take the guy that you like while you have the chance
by sportsfanatic21 on May 4, 2011 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions
I was all for trading down
and getting more. But, when push came to shove, Tyron Smith= pre-conceived sure thing (and a guy they liked, AND filled a big need) or trade down= the unknown and a possible repeat of 2009. Sometimes quality is better than quantity, a bird in hand is better than 2 in the bush, etc, etc…
by sportsfanatic21 on May 4, 2011 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Fair point about the existence of a possibility, but...
I don’t think you can compare moving from #9 to #16 in round 1 to trying to get Max Unger at the 59th pick of the 2009 draft.
The likelihood of getting no shot at Castonzo/Solder at #16 was clearly pretty low.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I think
that this board may have imploded had we drafted Nate Solder
by sportsfanatic21 on May 4, 2011 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions
I couldn't disagree more
We’d have seen a ton of love on the board for Solder if that had happened.
If you want proof, go look at the post-draft comments about Jason Williams and Robert Brewster. It was like we’d drafted Dick Butkus and Anthony Munoz.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Well...
all I heard leading up to the draft was how bad we needed somebody that could step in a play RT immediately. And it seemed the consensus opinion of the draftniks was that Solder had great upside, but had the longest way to go of all the 1st round tackles. Plus, maybe it was just a few people saying the same thing over and over, but there was tons of posts about not wanting Solder, and that he was WAY too much of a project for this team to take on at this point.
Can we agree that the chances of JJ signing a FA safety is pretty much a foregone conclusion? I dont know how to do it, but if you would like to, I think it would be interesting to see a fan poll of how many people would rather have Tyron Smith, a (even mid-level) FA safety, and David Arkin vs. Nate Solder, Rahim Moore, and Will Rackley (who I tend to think is VERY similar to Arkin). I’m not sure what the result would be, but I know what my vote would be.
by sportsfanatic21 on May 4, 2011 7:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Sebastian Vollmer and Jared Veldheer had the same knocks on them...
Both started as rookies.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I dont dispute that
Im just saying that, IMO, most people on this board would have been pissed if we had taken Solder.
by sportsfanatic21 on May 5, 2011 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions
I would have
HAHA
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
When have you seen a Dallas pick that made most people angry?
I need an example.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Solder would have had the board erupting.
Use the search bar and look up the comments about Solder before the draft. Almost every single one was negative. Some certainly would have rationalized it in the long run, but not in the short run. There would have been a collective gasp on the draft day threads.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
It's NEVER happened Creasy
Not once. Despite all of the crappy, worthless picks we’ve had, it has NEVER…EVER…EVER…happened.
So no, I disagree…and you should too since the stats lean towards my POV. :-)
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Really?
Look at the first 2 days of posts about DeMarco Murray this year! Like Murray, a Solder pick would have had everyone up in arms, and then, being the fans we are, some would have looked at the bright side and been ok with it, while others would be ranting like crazy until the guy made a Pro Bowl. I, for one, think that will be a LONG time, if ever.
by sportsfanatic21 on May 6, 2011 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions
LOL
That’s funny.
The reaction that a 3rd rounder (regardless of whether it is boom or bust) gets is not the same as a 1st rounder.
Look on the fanpost section. did anyone write a post about how bad that pick was?
No.
Yet I see two of them about why he’ll be great, break up our sstring of failed 3rd rounders, blah blah blah.
So, yes. Really.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Well
Look at Creasy’s and Kegbearer’s posts just above this. Along with me, thats 3 people that feel one way, and one (you) that feels another. And since the point was about more people being pissed about Solder being picked, that small sample size shows a 75%-25% ratio against your POV. A direct contrast to your comment that the stats lean to your POV.
And speaking of funny, you said NEVER, EVER…and then when I point out that it just happened, you say something about comparing 1st rounders and 3rd rounder, blah, blah, blah. The fact is, people were pissed about the Murray pick, regardless of how many posts have been written to the contrary. Go look at the comments from Friday night. Since that time, people have realized that there is a plan in place, and that Murray makes sense. In Solder’s case, it would be a direct comparison to Smith (or Costanzo), and the board would be pissed, whether thats your opinion or not.
So unless you (or someone else) that knows how to post the poll I mentioned earlier in this string of replies, I’ll guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
by sportsfanatic21 on May 6, 2011 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Can you blockquote those posts/comments?
I went and looked and while people questioned the Murray pick, nobody went ballistic as you suggest would have been the case if Solder had been picked.
And I’m not arguing what they said (I’m sure they believe they would have been very unhappy, but I’ve seen no indication of it in the years I’ve watched draft implosions by Dallas), so, I am arguing whether it would ever come to pass. I don’t think Dallas fans have ever REALLY been pissed about a Dallas draft.
If I was wrong, don’t you think 2009 would have been the ONE TIME where there was some serious fan discontent? There wasn’t. It was me railing on Jerry and Cisky and others telling me I was crazy.
So yes, we disagree in a big way.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Haha at the stats comment.
Regardless, I have had only been on these boards for three drafts now. Only two of those have had first round picks, and neither was bad enough to warrant an explosive reaction. So yeah, in my perspective it hasn’t happened. However, what I do know is that most everyone who wanted an offensive lineman on this board hated the idea of Solder. Just go look at the reaction to the fact that the Cowboys apparently had him graded similarly to Costanzo and Smith. There was a huge “please don’t draft Solder” contingent. And considering that these draft boards were more negative than positive the last few boards, I think 1) it is very possible to see a negative reaction on these board and 2) that Solder would have warranted such negativity.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
That's a fair prognostication
…worthy of discussion.
But…it still hasn’t happened. Even when it should have…it didn’t.
;-)
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Solder man I would have seriously smashed my labtop
Bruce Carter+Sean Lee=BRUCE LEE!!!!
by Archie Barberio on May 6, 2011 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Uh huh
The next time this board truly erupts about what they perceive is a bad Dallas draft will be the first time.
And yet, we have this rich tradition of bad drafting.
Hmmmm.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Why would J-ville trade with us?
If the Jags wanted Gabbert the only reason to trade with the pokes would have been if Washington wanted him too, otherwise grabbing Gabbert at 10 rather than 9 makes economic sense, esp if the the NFL goes to a rookie salary scalesimilar to the NBA’s which seems likely.
Red means run, son, numbers add up to nothin
You answered your own question
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I think changing any of the picks would have had a butterfly effect anyway
And when you say it starts in the trenches on O and D you can’t wait that long to get a DE.
I agree on both points
…but the board didn’t offer up a good 5-technique at our picks and Taylor (the one true NT in the draft worth looking hard at) had baggage and went early.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Yeah, the way the DL flew off early combined with 'JG Guys'
Really made it impossible to get a good fit later for the D- Line. Without FA I don’t think there is any (reasonable) way to draw up a ‘perfect’ draft, even in hindsight.
But you can make it better
What would you have done in their position?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
And is there such a thing as a "perfect draft"?
Maybe it’s a unicorn?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Haha, that's my point
You can’t make a perfect draft. I’m fine with the way it fell and I think FA will reassure us all that our draft was better than some may think right now.
But...
if you need a big FA haul to validate your draft, was it really a good draft?
I look at good drafting as a way to make your FA needs dwindle over time.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
With FA coming after the draft
Teams could stick to their board more, having a plan to fill positions they couldn’t select. Looking at our previous drafts, I do think FA will add validation to this one. We didn’t have the luxury of good drafting in previous years which is why we still need some pieces after the draft.
Yes, but that wasn't my point at all
We have those needs because of drafts that look, in large part, like this one.
Case in point – the O-line is a mess because of poor picks and generally counting on FA (Kosier, Fatt, Alex Barron, Holland) to make up for our miscues.
Picking Vollmer or Veldheer or Loadholt or any number of good linemen that have slipped through our draft fingers would have made this draft go a whole lot differently. Namely, they would have been more likely to take advantage of good trade offers.
Again, butterfly effect.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I agree, but water under the bridge; looks like JJ is a changed man,
and actually playing 2nd fiddle to JG. We must start over somewhere. Only time will tell if this approach is right.
I think that's wholly premature
Jerry is still Jerry.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Yep, he's no "2nd fiddle", not playing it either
One can only hope, as yet, he’s wiser as a result of experience and wisened up. I need evidence.
if they traded with Jacksonville
they would of had the ammo to move back into the 1st rd and get that DE they wanted. So if the trade happened they probably wouldnt of had a 2nd rder or maybe a 3rd rounder (i dont have that value chart on me). I would of prefered Costanzo and Jordan or Heyward over Smith and Carter.
I'd be fine with Jordan in that example, but not so sure about Heyward
I think what’s lost in the picks I made is the value of those two interior guys (Rackley and Ijalana) and how much flexibility and depth we’d have in just one draft year.
Can you tell I am pretty happy with myself????
;-)
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Too
9. OT – Anthony Castonzo
40. FS – Rahim Moore
OG – Ben Ijalana
71. OG – Will Rackley
110. WR – Edmund Gates
143. SS – Ahmad Black
176. DE – David Carter
220. FB – Shaun Chapas
252. OL – Bill Nagy
Still pretty happy with yourself?
Well, that depends on how Castonzo vs. Smith plays out
If both turn out to be good, yes.
If Castonzo busts, no.
If Smith busts, yes.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Obviously
btw, I like the re-do. But it’s not foresight, it’s not what your first two article sentences purport it to be and I’m not about to dig up any pre-draft mock list to check the exact match with this one. Need I? If so, please save me the trouble, just show me where it is.
What it is is is hindsight. Si.
I don't think so
The trade was there for them. We can corroborate that now. I would have taken the deal. That’s always been my opinion leading up to the draft.
I’ve touted Castonzo as safer than T.Smith.
The next set of picks is simply my way of saying how doing what Dallas DIDN’T do would have put us in a position to more aggressively solve the ever-present O-line conundrum.
In no way do I see it as a look back. It was forward thinking strategy that played out beautifully and Dallas was nowhere to be found when opportunity knocked.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I know so
Just as I am aware of your position going into the draft, what you spoke of in various comments, touting certain players, strategies and such. I do pay attention, though it may not seem so.
But your article is looking back at a passed and past draft. It’s behind us. The trade involved is one brought into being at that time, not one brought into being by any prior fan speculation (when’s the bragging start by someone who made some BS speculative pre-draft comment that hit on the details, for cr!ipes sake, that’ll be funny).
You know why “Dallas was nowhere to be found when opportunity knocked”? Because they didn’t have your article in-hand beforehand. If only they’d known Jax would had was going to call, knew the details beforehand, knew who’d be available at the slots involved and all the rest. Maybe you shoulda sent it to them instead of holding off until post-draft to present it. Oops, shoulda. I said a hindsight word.
C’mon, we gotta make another trip. My keys, I’m driving. Don’t trust others with this gizmo no more. Besides, you’ve editting to do changing tenses and stuff.
Nooooooooooooooo
It’s all about being critical of what we can reasonably say was in play at the time.
Let me simplify.
Regardless of what happened afterward, if dallas had the opportunity to make the trade with Jacksonville, this was the draft to do it. Had the done so, they would have had an opportunity to come away with a haul that addressed needs more robustly.
Fair?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Fine, but it's after-the-fact. Fair?
Critiques, by their very nature, are. Period.
It’s a reasonable and decent one, I’m not arguing that. I’m saying it, in fact.
But it’s a critique, therefore dependent on the event having happened, not yet-to-happen. Therefore, hindsight.
But a decent illustration of a strategy nonetheless.
Well, of course....how could I do a re-do before the do?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Ahhh, you're a smart man
When dealing with fact, even stubborness.
Even flights of fancy or fantasy or whimsy.
btw, what happens if we put this wayback machine of yours in reverse?
We get older faster
No thank you.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
We do anyways
Remember how long that last year before driver’s licence was? Before turning bar-legal? Before next Christmas? Feel that long now between years?
So we feel it the same, we just get to see down-when then now before it’s done. And re-do before the do becomes doable.
The goal of a draft should not be filling needs . The goal of a draft should be getting great players. If you have a chance at a premier player you have to take it.
While I would have taken the picks after Smith in a different direction , just going for quantity over quality is always a mistake. I am sorry the Cowboys couldn’t get a defensive end and or a safety. But the defensive ends after Bowers went off the board in the second round weren’t really that good or weren’t a good fit for the Cowboys. and their wasn’t any DE out there after round two that was worth changing a scheme over either . That is just the way it goes. The safeties in this class weren’t that good. There are a lot of people who saw Rahim Moore as third round pick.
It would have been great to have gotten Tryon Smith and Cameron Jordan/ JJ Watt but it wasn’t in the cards.
It would not have been possible to get Anthony Castonzo and Watt/ Jordan with a trade down either.
Nobody was looking for OT – Anthony Castonzo at 16. He wasn’t judged to be the 16th best player in the draft. The Patriots wouldn’t even take him at 17.
OT – Anthony Castonzo + OG – Ben Ijalana in two or three years might not be worth one Smith.
While players look good on draft day most players taken after the second round just turn out to be Jags. While someone like David Carter looks good in a draft guide but he will probably be no better than a jag. Chances are he will be less of a pro than Marcus Spears who is actually an okay pro.
Drafting for need rather than best player is bad , when your team trades down and then reaches it is a disaster over the long term. It makes your team mediocre.
Drafting for need is going 9-7 and one and out in the playoffs and being happy with it.
Drafting for need is short term thinking
Drafting for quality is long term thinking.
And who judges the "need", "great player", "premier player" and "quality"?
Defining and identifying the domains of short-term vs long-term thinking may prove interesting too. Conceptually, definitive time-frames and all the rest.
That would be by performance.
I would not be Anthony Castonzo is better than Tyron Smith for the next 3 years. But if 5 years out if Smith is a much better player then the Cowboys will have done the right thing.
Lets say the Cowboys pass on a player to fill a need and the player that fills a need is solid but nothing else but the player the Cowboys passe on is all pro is that a good choice?
by Jonathan Stern on May 5, 2011 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Who decides on the determinant elements for said "performance" evaluation?
As well as what consitutes said elements, their formulation and validity, their veracity?
If? 5 years out? Then it’s hindsight. So so easy to look back and say such things, isn’t it. Notice, that’s not a question, despite the “isn’t it”.
Let’s say the “fill an need” player is “solid but nothing else” but that player the Cowboys passed on is a “bust” or lesser talent. Is that a good choice.
Throw hindsight away. Eliminate it from any of this. Define “need”.
Need: fills a position where the Cowboys don’t have a respectably able starter or where in a short time they probably won’t.
by Jonathan Stern on May 8, 2011 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Everyone drafts for need to some degree
It’s why Dallas didn’t draft Blaine Gabbert.
While I understand the point you’re trying to make, I think you’re oversimplifying. Castonzo was rated by many as the best OT in the draft. Solder went before him because the Pats have Vollmer and wanted a guy with Solder’s ballerina feet.
To emphasize my point, Solder certainly wasn’t considered #18 on most boards, was he? YEt, there he went. I don’t think you’ll find a lot of people who would rate Dallas’ war room above the Pats’, do you?
Further emphasis, Tyson Alualu was thought to be a reach last year as he wasn’t thought to be the 10th best player in the draft. How’d that work out?
System, skill set, need position, talent…there is so much that goes into this, but if you fail to address a need, like Dallas has on the O-line, for too long, you’ll be stuck HAVING to draft for need. In our case, that need could become a QB if Romo gets murdered back there.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Tyson Alualu turned out not to be a reach cause he was as good as he was.
If he had just filled a need then it would have been a bad choice.
Blaine Gabbert wasn’t better QB prospect then T Smith was an OT prospect.
I just don’t think you pass up a great talent int he first round just to fill needs.
by Jonathan Stern on May 5, 2011 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Nick Fairley was a better overall prospect than Tyron Smith
Should Dallas have taken him?
If Petersen had fallen, what about him?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
yup
Bruce Carter+Sean Lee=BRUCE LEE!!!!
by Archie Barberio on May 6, 2011 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions
You are correct, but . . . .
While many teams.organizations draft 1st Rounders for current needs, I think poorly run teams draft for today’s need and quality organizations draft for tomorrow’s need.
Case in point, Carolina needs a QB, so they draft Newton. Why? Most QBs aren’t NFL ready for 2-4 years, but they force the issue and take one anyways. What’s funny is they probably won’t improve much and should be in line with the Luck Sweepstakes next year.
Hmmm
Dallas with Aikman.
Denver with Elway (really it was Indy but…)
SD with Rivers by way of Eli.
Indy with Peyton.
When you need a QB, you need a QB. And sometimes it works out.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Get out of here with that sh*t
I know when you need one, you get one. But of the names you mentioned, Cam Newton doesn’t get to even say their names at this point. . . . . . . He doesn’t even get to look them in the eye.
At this rate, Cam newton isn’t going to resurrect the Panthers. That puts them in the Luck Sweeptakes. Thereby wasting a 2nd Round in 2010 and the 1st Overall in 2011. Yikes!
Andrew Luck, Sam Bradford, Matt Ryan, etc > Cam Newton
Or do you not think so?
So how do you REALLY feel about Newton?
;-)
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Did anyone look at the price of a trade down??
NO gave up a one and two just to get Ingram.
To trade down the Cowboys would have had to give up their extra two and their number one next year.
So the price of Canstanzo and Jordan would have been a one this year " the extra two" we picked up from trading down and a one next year.
HUGE PRICE.
Especially when you know there is a much better prospect at defensive end than Jordan in next year’s draft.
I know you're thinking of Quinton Coples, but he'll be gone before we draft next year.
At least I hope we’re not drafting that early.
Trade Up to get 'em
For that dude QC I saw pay the price. The Cowboys in 1977 traded up for Tony Dorsett.
Lets pay the Julio Jones price and get a franchise DE. The Cowboys haven’t had a true franchise DE in a long time. Having a franchise DE is a really great thing. Look what it did for the Bears this year. Indeed Julius Peppers almost knocked out Aarron Rodgers in the second half and more than that got Aaron Rodgers to go off target . No one had even come close to slowing Rodgers down before that in the playoffs. The Packers / Bears game would have been a Packer blowout
Anyway I am happy to see more and more thinking about this guy in a Cowboys’ uniform.
The more everyone thinks about it the more likely it is to be brought about.
by Jonathan Stern on May 3, 2011 11:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Well ideas’ spread. Maybe the idea will find its way to the Cowboys’ management.
by Jonathan Stern on May 5, 2011 11:06 PM CDT up reply actions
So do mob psychoses It may have already, though I suspect it’s more likely to be individual, not mob. But, to be fair, ideas, yes they spread. Nazism, Christianity, intolerance, Hinduism, science, Islam, freedom,…
Some good, some bad, some belief, some fact. Which idea is it your want to bring about the “reality” you seek this “thought” or “idea” to begin “creating”? I’d like ot know in case I have issue with it. Or not.
Then, who’s to say who’s right, in the end? You? Me? History? And remember, history’s written by the winner, the survivor, and subject to revision.
The only idea I am trying to bring about is to get people to think about Q Coples in a Cowboys uniform.
No politics here. I am tired of, blown drafts , jags and first round picks that end up being nothing more than solid players.
Coples gives the Cowboys a chance at an elite prospect , star power and fills a area of need all at once.
I do know that Demarcus Ware was worth more than all the players the Cowboys drafted in 2006, 2007 , 2008 and 2009.
That is four years of drafts. Would you trade Spencer, Free , Jenkins and Jones for another Ware? I would.
The other day I looked at Walter Football and looked at redrafts and more often than not the first few players in the draft turn out big stars while the rest of the players in a draft turn out to be Jags or busts.
by Jonathan Stern on May 6, 2011 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Saying it just so you know and we’re clear on this: I knew your idea was about people thinking about Coples as a Cowboy. I’m not trashing the idea. Also not calling him Ware II, second coming of anyone, boom, bust, steal or anything of the like.
I admire your forward thinking and am not trying to make jest of you or call down your looking ahead.
First. Look at a 2011 draft top-10 prospects list from a date in April 2010. Look at a few of them. Notice anything? Now do the same thing but make it the complete 1st round. Notice anything?
Second. If a pro team’s scounting department’s not miles ahead on these things, they’re incompetent. College rosters, trends, the works had better be beyond the fans’ mere speculation in terms of information gathering, evaluation, the works.
Third. What you say in your last sentence surprises or surprised you? Seriously? If draft trends and statistics indicated otherwise, wouldn’t the Lombardi winner be picking first, not last? I’m not about to go on at length about that and will just leave it at that.
I’m not even going to get into the redraft, re-do, redone, revise, renovate meaning of re (possible misunderstnding based on the statement or misuse of re).
Here. Reading material you may find interesting over the next year. Deals with drafting, stats on starters and such things.
I don’t disagree with anything written above.
It is just that sentiment counts for something – not very much, probably very little – but it is not that it doesn’t count for anything.
There are so many ways the draft can play out , and sometimes and idea gets around. Sometimes an idea when it gets around. Everyone here has heard someone say “now that you mention it, that does sound like a good idea” . Finally last it is just that I think it (going out and making a very bold move for Coples ) is a good idea. This board is about sharing opinions and making suggestions. If someone has an idea about the Cowboys is there a better place to share it?
I bet I will get more than a few "now that you mention it.. " answers soon.
I would agree that there are more fruitful endeavors in this world.
Have a nice evening.
by Jonathan Stern on May 7, 2011 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Which brings us back to “I think, therefore I am it is”. Said without making jest of the concept, without naysaying it. Even at the beginning of this. It was a play on words that suited the situation. A possible debate provocation, nothing insulting. I say things like the “far out”, “high orbit” with humor, not insult, Jon.
I’ll now more appropriately state it as “I think, therefore it will be”. Which speaks to the orgin of ideas. Ideas that change the world. If you’ve the strength you hold to them with every fiber of your being. They’ve worth.
Even small, relatively insignificant ones like this. Besides, you never know the ripples any, even the smallest, may bring about.
I’m sure you’ll hear “now that you mention it…” down the road. Word of mouth gets around.
Which was and is your intent.
btw, where I come from, sentiment’s invaluable. Life’s worthless without it.
maybe 2 second round picks & 5th would've gotten back in the 1st round
thats if they did the trade down from Jacksonville
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth! Garrett & Ryan working as a team should create a physical environment at Valley Ranch that shows up on gameday.
But the Cowboys would have been overpaying for a defensive end that won’t be a probowl player year in and year out.
Heyward would have filled a need and his is a solid player but that is all he will ever be.
Maybe I am spoiled but the Cowboys once had two franchise DEs . I wanna see those days again.
by Jonathan Stern on May 3, 2011 11:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Mr. Peabody loaned it to me
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Yeah, I wouldn't have traded up to get Jordan after trading down
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Not a fan of the safety pick
but otherwise I like it. I just don’t see Carter being a plug and play guy this year. If he projected as an immediate starter for Brooking I would feel more at ease.
Carter
I think he will end up winning one of the nickle LB spots because he is so good in coverage – if rehab continues well and he has some time to learn the playbook (season starts sooner than later). He’s also versatile enough to be an extra LB in Ryan’s ameba sets that can rush the passer and cover if/when needed. Carter was a mid-first round talent before his injury and would have been considered one of the best LB in this draft. I think people aren’t excited enough about what he can bring…check out some clips when you can.
He and Sean Lee are the future of our ILB duo.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Agreed about Carter.I am so ready to have a good set of ILBs again.
I am so sick of seeing our LBs chase after the TE that ran right past them for a TD.Carter and Lee are fast enough to keep up PTL. I am very happy with our draft. Cowboys Rule!!!
Dallas Cowboys Rule!!!
by NVCowboy4Life on May 4, 2011 3:49 AM CDT up reply actions
It will be tough with our offense not letting our defense on the field often, but they’ll get some playing time…
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
I’d feel better if those long drives garnered more points than the quick drives our opponents get theirs by. Or even if our quick scores resulted in our D proving its resilience, fortitude and toughness, including these 2 guys.
But, have it your way.
Can we have it both ways?
Wait…that didn’t sound right. I mean, I figure we will rely more on our offense this year, but evenutally, our defense could alos become a powerhouse, but forcing 3 and outs would still keep them ont he bench for most of the game. HAHA
Let’s just hope they are on the bench due to good performance and not bad injuries
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
How much different do you think our defense be without an infusion of talent from the draft?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
The largest areas of concern couldn't really be fixed through the Draft.
Sure, you said draft Rahim Moore and Ahmad Black, but are those guys really long term answers? We will see how they perform this year.
I know anyone would be an upgrade over Ball and probably Sensi, but I don’t just want an upgrade. I would like to get back to the mindset of finding long term, permanent solutions; ie. dominant force types like Darren Woodson. I don’t think the aforementioned players are the answer there. FA should allow us a little time to find players that fit my line of thinking and we get the upgrade over Ball that way too. A win in the short term and long term (hopefully).
Maybe
…but this team has gone too long without drafting a safety in the early rounds and…guess what?
Ours suck.
So, we’ve gone the FA route with Hamlin and Sensi and…guess what?
They still suck.
Something needs to change.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I don't disagree with you there
I just don’t think any of the guys in this year’s class were that special (synonyms lacking)
I hope there is a stop gap option that can mentor the young guys we have on the roster. I want to see what they can do before I give reigns to a guy like Rahim Brown, I mean Larry Moore, aww sh*t . . . . . . Rahim Moore.
Around the action and in the action are two completely different things. My HS coach, Kenneth Davis (ex RB for the Buffalo Bills) used to remind us of this all the time. Watchin’ ain’t playin’
Well, if you make the INT, I'd say you were more than "around the play"
Moore had 14 INT’s in his 3-year career on a crappy defense.
If you watch these guys who come out of college from programs that were in flux and had coaching/scheme issues (like Michiganlast year) but still made plays, it’s likely they’ll be solid pro’s. That’s how I see Moore.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
If you had asked that question at the beginning of 2010?
Who in their right mind would have responded “One of the worst in the league”?
My answer is probably better than 2010 but worse than 2009. Though the DL is up in the air right now, who knows what will happen there. Hopefully worst case scenario we are able to bring back Spears and Hatcher on 1 year deals or bring in Cullen Jenkins.
After reading KC Joyner’s discussion with Raf, I’m worried about Newman and Jenkins. Well, I was worried before but I’m certainly more worried now. The statistics on them are horrific, though Jenkins’ case is a little strange – the guy went from a top 10 cb in 2009 (by KC Joyner’s stats) to one of the worst in the league in 2010. Newman is a little more worrisome overall imo.
So, based on everything that's been suggested on this lengthy thread, here is FA for us...
We have to sign Free, Spears, Hatcher, at least one safety, potentially an OG (if Kosier leaves)and one of the most productive pass-rushing 5-techniques on the market in Jenkins.
There had better be no cap.
:
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I'm not sold on Carter
He seems like Jamar Wall to me.
Not a fit.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
He is the exact opposite of Jamar Wall.
Wall was a “physical” corner who was a little limited athletically. He had a little too much muscle and while he had a great vertical, he wasn’t very agile. Bruce Carter is none of these things. He, when he was healthy, was an athletic freak who didn’t only have great speed (reportedly ran a sub-4.5 40) but was also very agile. If Bruce Carter fails, it won’t be because of his athleticism.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
But he's not known for being a thumper
Would you agree?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I would agree that that is not his calling card.
I would say though that with how fast he is he and how strong he is that he can make some pretty brutal tackles.
Still though, I don’t think that makes him less of a fit. Because in all honesty, I think he is probably a better fit for Ryan’s defense long-term than Bradie James is. He can do it all and that versatility is valued quite highly in Ryan defenses.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
So that makes me think he's a better fit as a weakside guy in a 4-3 alignment
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I think he could play that position great. But I don't think it makes him necessarily a bad 3-4 guy.
It may not be the most ideal position for him at this moment, but in fairness there aren’t too many 3-4 ILBs coming out of college. Most guys that play the 3-4 at the next level have to adjust to it and I think Carter can do that.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
Would you go so far as to say he looks like a better fit in a 4-3?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
As of right now, yes.
I say that simply because he played it in college and OLB in the pros is notoriously one of the easiest positions to transition to since often you simply are asked to flow to the ball and make tackles.
The point here though is that you can say that for most LB prospects coming out of college. Most never play in a 3-4 and as such are going to have to adjust to the new position. Bruce, more than most LBs, has all the physical tools to be a great 3-4 ILB. He can run very well, shed blocks, and is strong as a bull. So, while his ideal fit at this very moment may be 4-3 OLB, I think that he can be an excellent ILB for the Rob Ryan 3-4.. And that is why you invest a 2nd round pick in him.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
I'd say Martez was a better fit, given his more physical nature
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I don't think Martez is as good a fit.
I like the guy as an athlete, but I don’t feel like he has the requisite strength and nose to fight through traffic like would be required as a 3-4 ILB. Also, he is a little tall for an ILB. At 6-4, I would worry a little bit about his ability to get low and handle a guard coming through the line. I also think Martez is an odd guy because he has the height and athleticism to play 3-4 OLB, but seems like he probably isn’t strong enough to be a 3-down OLB.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
You don't think he can stack and shed?
Seems like his ability to do so was touted buy the draftniks.
I didn’t see him play much.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I don't know.
When I see him, I see a tall, athletic guy whose best fit is probably not the 3-4 ILB position where he is asked to take on guards and such. I could be completely wrong, but I don’t see him fitting that well. I would rather have Carter’s strength and low center of gravity (matched with his insane range and speed) on the inside. Plus, I have to think that other teams had some serious concerns about his chronic back pain since he was supposedly a fringe first round pick that fell into the third. And yes, Carter has a bad ACL, but I think it is the chronic nature of Wilson’s injuries that were more concerning.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
Prone to agree with ya
Carter, while a risk, perhaps less than many think, perhaps as much, seems a better fit to me.
This one could go either way, but if good, fans’ll be all over the pick as good, if bad, it’ll get trashed. Nothing new.
Carter's speed shows up...not so sure about strength
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I don’t know if you are an ESPN insider, but here is part of a written piece about him published at the beginning of 2010 when he was named the most freakish athlete in college football by Bruce Feldman:
This defense is overflowing with freaks (Mel Kiper thinks so too), but it’s Carter — a three-year starter at OLB who has led the nation with five blocked kicks — who merits top freak status this year. He’s part of the country’s fastest linebacking corps. Carter’s workout numbers are every bit as impressive as his football stats. He has set UNC linebacker records in the power clear (374) and the vertical jump (40.5 inches). The 238-pounder has also been clocked at 4.39 in the 40 and bench-presses 440. Asked which of the testing numbers he’s most proud of, Carter says it’s his power clean, which is tied for tops on the team with DE Robert Quinn and Zach Pianalto. “It measures the explosiveness the most,” said the former high school quarterback.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
Dirk Nowitzki = Absolutely the most underrated basketball player of all-time
More blockquoting
Strength/Ability to Shed Blocks: Strictly on a play-to-play basis, this is where Carter needs to show the most improvement. Carter has plenty of raw strength – his bench press is 440 pounds and he has a 374-pound power clean. But that strength doesn’t always translate when shedding blocks. Has said he’s up to 240 pounds but plays at 230. If he Carter is put on a 3-4 team, he may have to play at about 250.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Tsk, tsk, tsk
You’re quoting something from yardbarker? What’s next, a slideshow from bleacherreport?
I kid, I kid (but only a little)
by One.Cool.Customer on May 7, 2011 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions
I think all of the reports on him were similar
…but I’m sure, to your point, we could probably locate a site that thought Bobby carpenter was fierce and physical, too.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
More on Carter
Not a heavy hitter, tends to wrap up at the ankles rather than forming up and driving through ball carrier.
http://sidelinescouting.com/rankings/olb/bruce-carter.shtml
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Sometimes
…and sometimes he looked tentative and it was made downfield.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Were Wilson's always untentative and...
dead-hit full-stops or made up-field?
Not knocking either pick. NO likely got themselves a damn fine prospect. Hope they asked the Giants about the herniated disk in the neck risks, but all in all, Wilson looks like as good a prospect as any other that hasn’t played a pro down, including ours. 3 years’ll tell.
btw, more on Wilson:
Suffered from a herniated disk in 2009 and missed most of the season after recovering from a stab wound a year earlier, health and durability may be a substantial question mark heading into the draft… Will miss a lot of tackles when going full speed, does not break down well and relies too much on momentum and upper-body strength to bring down ball carriers… Does not have an overwhelming motor, and often looks timid when scraping and taking pursuit angles across the field.http://sidelinescouting.com/rankings/olb/martez-wilson.shtml
We can pick good/bad comment/review/judgment for any player.
Carter never really stood out to me only because he was surrounded by so many soon-to-be NFL players
I mean, didja see how many Tar Heels got drafted from their D?
Quinn looked like the best player by far. Next was Austin. Next was Coples.
Carter was an afterthought.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Yeah, shame on our ex-DC
Turning out so many. What’s he trying to do, screw us! First, rebuilding our DL, then DCing a SB win, now this?!
I don't really think that is the case at all.
I attend an ACC school and the two prospects at North Carolina I heard about were hands down Robert Quinn and then Bruce Carter. Marvin Austin was up there as well.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
Dirk Nowitzki = Absolutely the most underrated basketball player of all-time
Maybe it would be easier to understand if you'd gone to a good Pac-10 school like UCLA
Sorry, had to…
:-)
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Well my schooling isn't done
so I may end up attending a Pac-10 school eventually for grad school haha.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
Dirk Nowitzki is absolutely the most underrated basketball player in the league right now. He is one of four players all-time to average 25+ points and 10+ rebounds in the playoffs.
Only then will you come to know true wisdom, Panda.
;-)
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
He does like to wrap a bit much.
However, I think that is because he, more than just about anybody, can wrap up and actually truly throw down ball carriers on the basis of his strength. I don’t disagree that his tackling form could improve. However, I don’t think that is an indictment on his strength.
Regardless, we will see how it turns out.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
Dirk Nowitzki = Absolutely the most underrated basketball player of all-time
There are guys like Patrick Willis
…and there are guys like Bruce Carter.
Guys who hit you in a way that can knock your teeth loose are easy to see on the field.
Guy’s who can’t…look like everyone else.
One of my longtime indictments of Dallas’ defense is that it isn’t feared. Carter doesn’t bring that physical presence that is lacking in the LB corps.
In fact, Dallas lacks (and has lacked for some time) the nastiness needed to become an elite unit.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Are the Packers that "nasty"?
I don’t really think so. Their best hitter may be a db (Woodson). They are tough up front, but if you want to talk about why they are feared, its a secondary that can make plays on the ball and an olb who is virtually unblockable.
The Jets aren’t really built that way either.
Everyone points to the Ravens and Steelers, but outside of them there aren’t many year to year consistent Ds in this league.
foyesboys, meet Mr. Raji.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
See Ratliff 2007-2009..
Hopefully he plays better in 2011 or else I may need to agree with you on the we should move him to DE argument
It's a foregone conculsion in my mind...
that if we don’t decrease his snaps on the nose, his annual decline in play will continue to begin earlier and earlier in the season.
Again, not his fault, just overuse. The guy’s done everything you could ask of him.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
We'll agree to disagree.
I think Carter has all the tools to be very good and I think he actually appreciates utilizing his strength and speed to impact a lot of force on to ball carriers. I just think his technique needs some work.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
Dirk Nowitzki is absolutely the most underrated basketball player in the league right now. He is one of four players all-time to average 25+ points and 10+ rebounds in the playoffs.
I hope you are right
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Carter can hit
He is very athletic and strong against the run. Sure, he may not be defined a thumper, but he is relentless to the football and certainly made some big hits in college. Like Creasy says, he will be highly valued in Ryan’s defense due to his versatility and I don’t think he is a liability in the run game. The best 3-4 ILB manage to avoid the OL and tear through the gaps to make plays, and Carter has the speed, agility, and strength to do so. I think if all rehab goes well (and curerntly he is ahead of schedule) he will win one of the nickle LB positions and then eventually become our best ILB.
Anyway, i think in the long run you will be pleasantly surprised by Carter.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
What people CAN do and what they DO do can be utterly different things
I think PrimeTime had the ability to hit, but he didn’t have the stones for it.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Whether...
Physical or finesse, any player, any style, so long as the play’s incomplete, downed before the 1st, busted up, picked, etc. Let the loser of that battle whine “I was hit too hard”, “you guys aren’t tough enough to…”, yap, mouthe off, whatever. Let the fans clamoring for one or the other in their favorite team or player, or calling down the other side, say similar things. Who cares? Walking back to your huddle, knowing it’s sour grapes, the loser trying to provoke, those kind of things, is one of life’s great great feelings. You know you did your little bit to help out your team, you did your job. Takes all kinds, all techniques, styles, sometimes even play-to-play by the same player.
And when you look up after 60 minutes and see the result, how you and your buddies did it matters little. And a lot. And when you see it paid off with the W, are you thinking how, no you’re savouring it, have that feeling, that one that makes winning winning.
But till it’s the last game, there’s still work to do.
Yeah, I know, you guys are arguing “fit”. Selection and coaching make puzzles fit together. So long as the pieces aren’t busted.
eh, if this was actually our draft id be very disappointed. Black is a playmaker in college for sure but id put money on him never being a good nfl player simply due to his limitations. Like I said he would get burned deep by jackson and outmuscled and outjumped by nicks. Likewise Rahim Moore doesn’t seem too special to me either. You just wasted two of our picks. Then trying to completely retool the oline I wouldn’t mind but you’re trying to start 3 rookies on it? I liked the Edmund Gates pick but he’s almost as old as Watkins, if he takes a year or two to get on the field he’d be 26 or older, by the time you resigned him he’d be approaching thirty.
Idk man, the way the draft fell I’m happy with our selections. All the grabbing for QBs and Marcus Spearses pushed some good talent our way.
Moore may not be Ed Reed, but how will you feel if Alan Ball starts next year?
Better yet, who would you have taken instead?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I don’t want Ball. But this is also my opinion if the Cowboys had great pass rush Ball wouldn’t matter much.
by Jonathan Stern on May 5, 2011 11:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Hmmm
I think there is more marquee value at the safety position than ever before in the NFL.
Clearly the result of this league’s lean toward passing.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
This wasn't the year to take a safety in the draft
The talent or value simply wasn’t there.
In Romo we Trust
Still pining over Delmas I see...
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Ahmad Black is no Bob Sanders
Sanders combine 40 yd dash – 4.35
Ahmad Black combine 40 yd dash – 4.7something
I like Black but he’s no Sanders….
I think it was not a comparison of triangle numbers as much as the idea that they are both undersized, made big plays in college and threw their bodies around
The 40-times are non sequitur.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
The Moore and Black picks would be wasted picks.
I’ve brought this up seemingly a dozen times over the past few days, but Rahim Moore was not the answer at FS. He’s nowhere near as good as his INT numbers would suggest. I’ve seen him play more than anyone on this board, and probably more than most draft pundits (although, granted, not with the benefit of coaching tape), and I’m not convinced that he would be any better than Alan Ball.
In a weak draft for safeties, you don’t draft two of them, you draft none of them. Just like the Cowboys did. The goal of a draft is to build a better team from the bottom up, not to throw a bunch of darts against the wall and hope that one sticks.
Otherwise, you carpet-bombed OL, and while that is great, you do so at the expense of building up the overall talent level on the roster.
Where's OCC's stats on rookie safeties...
Like the starting rookie OL stuff he did in “Can A High Draft Pick Be An Immediate Upgrade For Cowboys O-line”?
Even someone coming up with just a Freeneyesque “I’m licking my chops” quote or vice-versa from a respected WR/TE.
Well, you may get your wish, because right now Alan Ball is #1 on the depth chart at FS
We’ll have to revisit this in 9 months (pray for a season to happen) and see if Moore has gotten on the field and how he’s played.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Safety concerns
Do you think AOA is as good as Moore or knows more about NFL defenses/offenses right now? At this point, I do on both accounts
Do you think Dallas will pick up one of the veteran Safeties in FA (which is a pretty decent list)? I do
Moore (and any safety in this draft) was a reach at #40 in my opinion and not the answer to our secondary woes. I know you really like him, but I think Carter is a better upgarde for this team in several ways – athletically, intangibly/character, and for limited depth at LB compared to lots of young safeties on the roster
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Good questions!
No. I think AOA looked stiff to me in return duty and stiff hips at any DB position scare me. What he knows about NFL defenses probably isn’t enough to create a disparity between him and Moore since Moore played against top notch offenses purely at safety and isn’t a tweener like AOA.
I think Dallas will vie for a FA safety, but who is out there that makes sense from a centerfielder perspective and looks like they could grow into a long-term fixture? Huff? Pool?
Nah. and let’s not forget, Dallas will be likely constrained by some sort of cap. How’s our payroll looking? Not so hot.
As for Carter, he looks like a WLB in a 4-3 to me.
Finally, they said Jairus Byrd was a reach for Buffalo at #42 a couple of years ago. Moore is far more accomplished, with better skills for playing the deep half, than Byrd.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Clearly we disagree
AOA – I didn’t see stiff hips, I saw reluctancy to pick a hole and run. Two very different things returner vs. safety. Having a year on an NFL team seems like a very big difference in knowledge base even for a rookie from a top notch program.
Carter – is athletic enough to rush the passer and play against the run, but is also the best cover LB in this draft. Great 3-4 ILB fit with versatility for more.
Safeties in FA rarely have contracts that would kill our cap space and we NEED a leader and veteran safety to QB the secondary and plenty of guys that if not long term fixes can play out their 4 year contract effectively.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
I'm not worried as much about killing our cap as much a I am figuring out who you cut to sign the FA
Maybe it’s like saying, “who is this year’s Antrell Rolle?”
I don’t see one.
Sign Pool? He brings what now?
Sign Huff? That guy stinks.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
In all fairness, and this is obviously just my opinion
But if you put Huff and Moore in a room and said “choose between the two” most teams would take Huff. I was under the impression that it was pretty widely known that the safety class this year was awful and that Rahim Moore wasn’t really that good?
You aint been around in awhile, maybe you haven't heard........I don't shine shoes no more
He went 5 picks after Carter to Denver
John Fox knows defense. Brian Dawkins as a tutor. Ed Reed as a mentor.
Jussssssst sayin.
Maybe he’ll flourish there and we just have to realize that no CB or safety will realize their potential in Dallas as long as Campo is the secondary coach…
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
LoL you may be right about the Campo part.
I’ll be 100 percent here, I did not watch a single game of his…ever. I am basing what I’m saying strictly off of what i’ve read others say. Honestly, past Peterson and Prince, Williams was really the only other DB I wanted in the top 3 rounds. Again, this is all based off of my ignorance of Moore’s career.
Just a question, where do you get Ed Reed as a mentor? Not being an ass, i’m truely wondering. Do they know each other?
You aint been around in awhile, maybe you haven't heard........I don't shine shoes no more
Yep
They’ve become friends through a couple of meetings and multiple phone conversations.
He’s talked with Reed about what it takes to be the best and about Reed’s approach to the game.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Hardly a reason to expect that "mentoring" to...
Translate into on-field pro ball success. Not saying it won’t, not saying it will. Talking is easy, listening is easy but a bit more difficult, doing is a whole whole lot more difficult.
Jussssssst sayin people who say they’re just saying usually aren’t.
He says he considers him his mentor
That may be a stretch, but again, those are his words not mine. Reed didn’t deny it either.
But how much contact can these guys have with players while they are in college? Are they not subject to some sort of tampering rules too?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Unknown to me, but I'd suspect something must be in place
Regardless, the mentoring could well be there, in college, while on a pro roster, whatever. Mentoring doesn’t always produce its anticipated (hoped for?) results. Not saying this situation is any more or less likely in terms of results than any other, just so we’re clear on that.
And yes, I think we disagree on AOA
I am leaning toward saying he could be a JAG in the final outcome.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I don't think Brodney Pool is a better long term answer than Moore
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
So you're pinning everything on Huff
What if we don’t land him?
Back to Alan Ball? BTW, I love his work on True Blood.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
If not Huff, then who?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Assume no change and that 2010 rules apply untilyou hear different
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I don't know why you think Rahim Moore would be a solution at FS.
Sure he is better than Alan Ball (no huge accomplishment there), but Rob Ryan has said he wants no cowards on defense and him and Garrett are trying to implent their own philosophical ideas and culture. Moore isn’t the type of tackler Rob Ryan wants as the last line of defense. And also I forgot where I saw this (probably BTB or CN) but we weren’t impressed that Moore was the “right kind of guy” when he came in for a visit. I’ll pass on Moore and Ahmad Black and stick to my board.
As for the lineman, I wanted Rackley at 71 myself but I don’t know about trading back for Costanzo. Lets stick with Smith. He is not only the bookend to Free but he is the swing tackle too. I think that he is worth opportunity cost of the trade down offer which is Ijalana.
I think Dallas has not had a viable centerfielder since Brock Marion left and I am tired of...
the endles big plays over the top that our team seems to give up at the worst possible time.
While Moore has his limitations, he covers a lot of ground because of his instincts, studies his opponent well and is a team leader. The aformentioned questions about his hands seem ludicrous to me and contradict the eyeball test and the assessments of others who watched him play.
Dallas needs help at safety.
And people keep badmouthing Moore without knowing the situation in any detail. If we’re going to parrot other people’s work, let’s be balanced;
Here’s a link to Dan Kadar’s evaluation of Moore.
And this from FF Toolbox;
Rahim Moore is widely considered the best safety prospect in the nation…and he is just a junior. Moore has been a starter for three years and has never missed a start. As a freshman he tallied 60 tackles and picked off three passes. He had his coming out party in 2009 and it started right from the beginning when he picked off three passes in the season opener. Moore went on to pick off a total of ten passes, the most in a single season by any player since 2003. He even ranked second in the nation in passes defended. For his superb season, Moore was named to just about every all-conference and all-American team.
The accolades continued heading into 2010. However, Moore would have a bigger challenge on his hands as the UCLA defense was decimated by graduation. Moore has become a leader on the field and through seven games ranks third on the team in tackles and has one of the team’s three interceptions so far in the season. The absence of a consistent pass rush has certainly diminished Moore’s effectiveness this year. He has even practiced some at the corner position due to a lack of other options.
Again, on balance, I don’t think people are giving Moore a fair shake since he had to be a “team-first guy” in 2010 and play up in the box because of his team’s deficiencies. But then again, Jason Garrett might not want “that type of guy” in his locker room.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
AOA
Is very smart and ran a 4.32 – 40 at the combine. I think he could certianly be that centerfielder we have been looking for.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Hey, Al Davis, straight line speed isn't telling of future success at these positions
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
But important for a ballhawking safety, no?
Sure, reading a play is the biggest factor for a safety (note all the remarks about AOA’s intelligence and how football smart he is), but blazing speed helps you get there faster too.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Hmmmm
I think it would be foolish to think that speed is not important at this position, but a 40-yard dash is not a great indicator of the football speed required to make plays.
People say they would love Eric Weddle to come in and play centerfield for us. Well, the bad news is that Weddle is a slug. You just never notice it because his ability to diagnose, not take false steps and get to the ball more than makes up for his limitation there.
At age 34, Darren Sharper had 9 INT’s in 2009 and made the pro bowl. I doubt he could beat Moore or AOA in a footrace, but…you get the point.
The question isn’t whether speed is important or not, because clearly it is. But you have to take the amalgam of all of the athletic skills and mental talents of a player in order to fully understand their potential to perform at this level.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
HAHA
Yes – aren’t we saying the same thing?!
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Maybe
If Moore is the best in his group at doing all of those things EXCEPT running a straight line 40, then is his lack of 4.4 speed really an issue? By the same token, is AOA’s ability to run a 4.3 that big an advantage if he can’t do them as well as Moore?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Right after the season, Ryan Mallet was the most pro-ready qb in the draft
You aint been around in awhile, maybe you haven't heard........I don't shine shoes no more
He still may be...
I mean, who is Dallas to argue with the NE brass?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Lol, again...you are probably correct.
My point is, again in my opinion, it’s just so hard to go by what people say in articles. I suppose, unless you sit down and study all the tape, then you have to go by what the “pro writers” say.
Ryan was probably a bad example, considering there’s not a pass he threw at Arkanasas that I haven’t seen atleast twice, And there’s not a play in Moore’s career that i’ve even seen once lol
That being said, I will admit defeat on the Moore point, but I still like our draft a lot lol
You aint been around in awhile, maybe you haven't heard........I don't shine shoes no more
Moore could be a bust
My point is having a 2nd round guy become a bust at FS for us would be a departure because we haven’t invested that kind of choice in a safety in a very long time. Seeing a 2nd round LB (or any round LB for that matter) become a bust wouldn’t really surprise longtime fans who’ve seen a ton of picks wasted on this spot.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Seeing 1st's bust...
Has many Cowboys fans dulled to any round going boom or bust, regardless of position. OCC, stats, dammit, on Cowboys booms/busts, by round and position, over the past 22 years.
Craps, anyone?
Not me
I still get very angry.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I root for Dallas in the draft
I’ve felt losing a lot over the last 15 years.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I don't have a problem drafting the 2 safties.
I have more of a problem forcing Moore into the starting role on day 1. I would prefer to start a more expierenced safety and work Moore into the lineup and give him a chance to transition into the NFL then put him in as starter in year 2. I think he will grow to be a very good safety in the NFL and with some time Black will also be a good safety and add depth to the safety position.
I don't think Moore is that good.
I know you love him because he’s an UCLA guy but every report I read on him just thought that he was the best safety in crop of crap. Just because you’re the most polished turd, doesn’t make you not still a turd.
The rest… looks good.
AFB Condensed- New name, same flavor.
Also
I know he had a great year in 2009, but last year he had 1 int, zero sacks, and zero fumbles last year.
The big games he had were all against the crappiest QBs. I just don’t think he was worth a second round pick or any other safety in this class for that matter.
AFB Condensed- New name, same flavor.
Look up
There’s a story behind that story.
That’s why I never look at stats in a vacuum.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
The story behind the story
is that Moore is simply not as good as his 2009 stats would suggest. Like I said earlier, I watched just about every snap of his UCLA career, and Moore rarely stood out on the field. His 2009 picks were some of the luckiest picks you will ever see – deflections and overthrows that essentially landed in his lap. All he had to do was not drop them (which, to his credit, he didn’t). Moore always seemed to be around the play, but never actually made the play.
I think the Cowboys did their due diligence on Moore. They brought him in for interviews, kicked the tires, and whatnot, and apparently concluded that he was a higher bust risk than they were willing to live with at #40.
I think you made my point for me here...
Moore always seemed to be around the play
When was the last time you were able to say that about our FS?
What Dallas did or didn’t conclude about Moore is purely conjecture on your part. But to use the notion of “bust risk” when comparing him to a LB who is a questionable fit playing inside in a 3-4 and coming off of an injury that might negate the one thing he was known for (his footspeed) is another good example of why Dallas has drafted poorly in the last 5 years.
I like Moore, but I couldn’t have stayed true to myself and argued against a DE or another OL at #40. I, and anyone with half a brain, can easily argue against the selection of (jeez, another) LB in round 2.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Not really. Ball was around the play too...
but never actually made the play. Kind of like Moore this past season. :) When I say Moore was “around the play” I mean that he was there watching WRs come down with balls that he could have made a play on if he were a better safety. Kind of like Ball. Coincidentally, they had the same amount of INTs this season. :)
Unlike you, I don’t think Carter is a bust risk. Healthy, he’s a top-15 talent. Unlike Moore, who even completely healthy is a mid-2nd round talent in a bad draft for safeties. The Cowboys have had decent success in recent years in picking players with high talent levels that slipped in the draft due to senior-season injuries (Canty, Lee), and I read several reports (post-draft, but were written pre-draft) indicating Carter had been given a clean bill of health. And speaking of “pure conjecture on your part”, that is exactly what this “point” is:
a LB who is a questionable fit playing inside in a 3-4
From the videos I’ve seen, Carter played all over the defensive backfield at UNC, including ILB. He has the speed (even if he slips a bit due to the knee, he’s still a 4.5 or 4.6 guy, which is faster than any LB we have) to cover backs and TEs, which is something that our ILBs have consistently struggled with. We know the Cowboys brought him in and that he met with Ryan, who quizzed him on assignments and formations and talked about how they would use him. The most logical assumption is that Ryan signed off on the pick. Now this may be conjecture on my part, but I’m pretty sure that he knows a little bit more about whether Carter is a questionable fit at ILB in his defense than you do.
MAn I love this line right here!
Now this may be conjecture on my part, but I’m pretty sure that he knows a little bit more about whether Carter is a questionable fit at ILB in his defense than you do.
That line of reason is pure crap. So Duante Culpepper was better than Drew Brees? The Miami doctors sure thought so. Coaches make mistakes all of the time and so do doctors. There is always a chance that Carter NEVER regains his former speed and quickness. Stop using the word logic like it means anything with opinions.
Wars are won in the trenches and we need some new big uglies!
That's not even close to the same thing, and you know it.
Culpepper/Brees was a free agency decision, not a drafting one. Takes two to tango and all that. Miami had more concerns about Brees’ shoulder, and while they waffled, New Orleans swooped in, and offered something that Miami couldn’t – the chance to do something great off the field as well (Brees was inspired to help the city rebuild post-Katrina).
And by the way – coaches make mistakes all the time. So do doctors. But do you know who has the highest error rate? Anonymous internet fanboys who pretend to be experts at something. :)
Well, your open-mindedness is awe-inspiring
…and to say Ball was around the play too is very telling. I have to question what you were watching when you say you saw every one of his snaps.
If those same eyes tell you that Ball “was around the play” in the same way a guy with 14 career INT’s on one of the worst defenses in the FBS was, well, there really is no arguing with you.
I, unfortunately, have watched every one of Ball’s snaps and it is utterly frightening to watch that guy play Free Safety for this proud franchise.
As for Carter, how do you know how fast he will be after his injury? Have you watched every one of his ligaments heal along with every one of Moore’s snaps? Are you some kind of expert in the field? By the way, it wasn’t too long ago that we had an ILB who excelled in coverage but wasn’t physical enough at the point of attack. We shipped him off to St. Louis for Alex Barron.
I think you’ve created a reality that you’re happy with. I’m just wondering what happens if it doesn’t work out exactly as you believe it will…
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Every one of your arguments can be used against you, so I don't know why you are so dismissive.
How many of Moore’s picks did you see? 10 came in the one season when he was not playing on one of the worst defenses in the league – that season he had Brian Price in front of him destroying pockets and causing overthrows galore. (The UCLA defense in 2009 was #27 in scoring defense and #32 in total defense.) When he was playing on one of the worst defenses in college football – last year, when the Bruins were #85 in scoring defense and #94 in total defense – he had 1 pick.
I’m having an extremely difficult time finding highlights of those 10 picks in 2009. I suspect that is because most of them aren’t exactly highlights. I did find nearly 1/3 of them, that came in the season opener against perennial doormat San Diego State. They are on this video from the 2:45 mark on: On the first two – he doesn’t even have to move to pick off the ball because the throw was so bad. On the third, to his credit, he did take a step or two to his right to catch the overthrow.
2 more of those picks came the next week against Tennessee, against a terrible QB (Jonathan Crompton). I can’t find video of those picks anywhere. But if I recall correctly, they were of the same sort. I remember distinctly watching the first part of that season and thinking: “Man, Rahim Moore is a lucky player – he gets the easiest interceptions in the world.” But don’t take my word for it (since I don’t take yours ;)). Bryan Broaddus – you know, who used to be a scout and analyzes tape for a living, tweeted this about Moore after watching some of his tapes:
“Is it possible to make every open field tackle, show awareness in routes and be in position to knock two balls down but don’t? Rahim Moore.”
And Greg Gabriel of the National Football Post, another long-time scout, said this about Moore:
“He flashes good man to man cover skills when he is on a slot receiver but in four games viewed he did not make plays on the ball. He can have good position but once the ball is in the air he doesn’t make the play. I really have to question his ball reactions.”
That is consistent with what I saw first-hand watching UCLA games this year. I don’t know about you, but that sounds a lot like Alan Ball to me. Moore may be a decent safety, but he’s not a great safety. On a good defense that had disruptive players up front, he took advantage of the havoc they caused to snatch some very fortuitous picks. On a bad defense that generated no pressure, he was mediocre at best. Picking an average player at a position of great need – as a desperate attempt to fill that need – is a recipe for draft disaster.
As for the “creation of a reality that you’re happy with” – that may be so. But you’re just as guilty of creating a reality that you are sure is terrible. One of us may be right, one of us may be wrong. Odds are both of us will be a little bit of both, since life is rarely black and white. But I guarantee you that I will be happier in the meantime.
Sorry, here's the San Diego St video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzSYTz1Aw_8
Not sure why it didn’t show up earlier.
So typing “Rahim Moore 2009 highlights” into that blank space on the web site called GOOGLE was too difficult for you?
I’m beginning to see where this is going…nowhere.
But, to humor you, here is the link to some for you.
Again, thanks for making my point for me. When he had half a pass rush in front of him, he had 10 INT’s. When they were decimated by defections and injury, he played in the box, which we know is not his forte. All he did in 2010 was have his best season in terms of total tackles and TFL.
But I’m sure you saw that since you saw EVERY SNAP of his. BTW, how does a guy who can’t locate the highlights that took me all of 8 seconds to pull up qualify as someone who has any credibility in analyzing the things you had to have some wherewithal to understand?
He’s not Roy Williams and while he is a willing tackler, will never be confused with Jack Tatum. But he’s a ball hawk who locates the ball, elevates to highpoint it and catches them with his hands. I think the long lost videos of him affirm those things, Broaddus’ comments notwithstanding.
the same geniuses who watched Dan MArino’s final year in school downgraded him. What they didn’t realize is that the team he led that last year was bereft of talent and he was carrying them. HE then proceeded to carry a bunch of mediocre Dolphins teams…all the way to the Hall of Fame.
Don’t get too caught up in what you read because you can easily find guys who refute that stuff, as the ESPN guys did when Denver picked him at #45.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I finally figured out the problem... you can't read
And because of that, I really applaud your efforts here. I mean, you drafted a pretty long fanpost and even managed to respond to like 250 comments. So, seriously, props dude.
Of course I saw that video. It’s the first one that pops up. I said (pretty clearly I might add) that I was looking for highlights of all 10 of his picks. I was hoping that maybe we could look at them all and compare. But that video pretty much proves my point. It shows, what, 5 picks (not counting replays of the same play), and only 1 was something even close to impressive (the one from the Temple bowl game where he is playing deep and comes across and picks the ball off on the sideline). Everything else was what I described – deflections and overthrows.
And the only way I “made your point for you” is because you keep changing it. First you claim that Moore had 14 picks while playing on one of the worst defenses in college football. When I point out that he only had 1 pick while playing for the one of the worst defenses in college football, and 13 while playing on a pretty good D with a really good pass rush that resulted in a lot of easily interceptible balls, you somehow claim that is even better. C’mon man. I could have picked off most of those passes. And if you had two arms and two legs, you probably could have as well. (Although the reading comprehension thing might be a problem).
Blockquote time...
I’m having an extremely difficult time finding highlights of those 10 picks in 2009.
You found the ones from SDSU but not the ones I found?
No, the UCLA defense was never a good one. They suffered the loss of Dewayne Walker and transitioned to Chuck Bullough and now have a new one in Joe Tresey given how bad they were coached last year.
So let’s crystallize, okay?
You say he isn’t good because he was lucky to get those INT’s as a Sophomore.
I say that when he was able to play behind Brian Price and a couple of guys who beat their man and sometimes put pressure on opposing QB’s, he made a ton of big plays.
You say he wasn’t a big play guy in 2010 and didn’t show the same level of ball hawking skill even though you’ve discounted his INT’s in 2009 as lucky.
I say he had to “Cowboy up” in 2010 and play in the box because the team sucked so bad that they couldn’t stop Temple from running through gaping holes at the line.
You say you can’t find highlights of EVERY ONE of his 10 INT’s but you also say you saw every snap of his.
I ask, can you find a highlight of every single one of Von miller’s sacks from 2009 at A&M? I tried and couldn’t. Clearly, that devalues them in your eyes but not mine.
Are we at least clear on our disagreements? Anything else you would add?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Now now now
For the most part you’ve been surprisingly civil. Let’s not lower the level of discourse.
I was hoping for a quick video replay of the INTs because they would show what I’ve been talking about. I saw the video you posted and watched it – it has 5 picks (I think), 3 of which are the San Diego State ones. I did see every snap of his, but since you don’t care to give my opinions any credit, I was looking for a video shorthand reference for your edification - not for mine. I know what I saw, and I’ve been clear about it.
I like Moore. He’s a good kid and was a solid citizen. He was a reliable player at safety for a bad UCLA team. What I have a problem with is using a high draft pick on him with the thought that he’s going to be the ballhawking centerfielder that we need. Most people – including you – point to his gaudy INT totals as proof that he will be just that. I disagree, based on what I’ve seen. Even when he had pressure players in front of him, his picks were mostly due to good fortune, and rarely did he make the type of play that we would be expecting him to given his stats and draft status.
As such, I think he would not have been a good pick at #40. And while I am uncertain as to whether Carter was the right pick at that slot, I was ecstatic that we didn’t pick Moore, because I am certain that he was not the answer at FS. I am hopeful that we will fill that need in FA, because that is the best solution given the weak FS draft class.
Last year I was hoping against hope for Earl Thomas. Does that make me a genius like you? ;)
Yes, it makes you a genius
…but that term is purely relative.
Here is the part that I struggle with from you and have, since the beginning…
Even when he had pressure players in front of him, his picks were mostly due to good fortune
There are two very difficult things a FS has to do when playing centerfield. First, he has to get himself in POSITION to make a play. Second, he has to MAKE the play.
In 2009, he did what was asked of him (namely, play over the top) and it inflated his INT numbers. In 2010, again, he did what was asked of him (play in the box) and his numbers were deflated.
I believe there is an inherent contradiction in the way you are evaluating his play. You devalue the big plays he made when he had the chance to make them and you deride his lack of big plays while dismissing the fact that he didn’t have the same opportunity to make those plays that you originally devalued.
Said differently, you attribute his “gaudy INT” numbers to having pressure players in front of him and a lot of luck but don’t attribute the fall-of in that category to what we both agree was a lack of those same kinds of players in front of him last season.
There’s no lack of civility involved. I just can’t get you to explain WHY you have what appears to me to be an entirely one-sided perspective that you do.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Fair enough.
I see what you are saying. I just don’t see the 10 picks as being big plays (well, most of them) that are going to translate to the next level. If his picks were all like the Temple one, where he roamed over and high-pointed the ball over the WR, I would be completely on board. But they weren’t. I didn’t consistently see that type of play from him even when he was playing deep centerfield in 2009.
90% of his picks were from overthrows and deflections, many of which he didn’t even have to move to make the play on. So I devalue them because even if he were to play his entire career in front of that type of line causing that type of pressure, most of those fluky plays would not be repeated. On the other hand, if his picks were mostly of the Temple variety, where he had to read the play and move over into position to make it, I would be on-board, because that type of play is repeatable.
So I just don’t think we can count on him to fix our centerfield woes. He didn’t really make those types of plays consistently.
It’s kind of like the people who looked at the picks that Romo threw before he got hurt last season and blame all of them on him just because they show up next to his name, but fail to realize that some (most?) were caused by Austin or Witten or Marty B or Williams flat-out mishandling balls and causing them to be deflected into a DB’s arms. 99% of the time, those plays are easy pitch/catch, but on that day in that game at that time they weren’t. Play those games again, make those same throws, those picks almost certainly don’t happen.
Well, now I understand the WHY behind the WHAT
While I still assert that you cannot devalue those plays he did make (you still have to be in the right place at the right time to make a play on an overthrow or deflection and if it were that easy, more players would have double digit INT’s in the FBS) and then deride him for a lack of those plays the next season when his responsibilities changed (again due mainly to the fact that his defensive line was unable to pressure opponents or stop their run games), I think we finally can both articulate each other’s arguments.
Let’s meet up again mid-season to review how Moore is doing, assuming he can overtake Darcel McBath as a rookie, and see whose assessment looks closer to being on target?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Sorry if that came off snarky, DW
…it’s just that a bunch of jokers on here said the same thing about Wade knowing more than I do in 2009 when I berated the front office over Jason Williams. they said it again when I said Jamar Wall was going to flop.
I guess the moral of the story is that one should not assume that just because they get paid to do a job, that they are any good at it.
The fact is, I’ve been right more than Jerry/Cisky have, and I bet a lot of other BTB’ers have been too.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Yeah, but you're a terrible judge of good posts
:-)
Thanks man.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Im glad
I am very glad that you dont draft for the cowboys, thank god we have garrett
by gogokroz on May 3, 2011 6:49 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Be here for part two of this conversation this time next year...
because I heard the same vitriol after I maligned the 2009 draft. Most of those goofs no longer post on here due to the sheer volume of blockquote shame I can bring down.
Comment at your own risk…
;-)
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I think you are wrong 5 Blings....
and you can blockquote me on that all you want If I am wrong…Won’t be leaving…….
With the 9th Pick Dallas Selects Tyron Smith...Romo Weeps in Joy, and Bennet says"I might get to go out in the Pass Pattern now!"
by I am Ironman!!! on May 4, 2011 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions
I thank you for that
…cuz I luv ya man!!!!
:-)
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I remember saying time after time that you should wait to see it play out
and there was a point where I thought signs were looking good that it could amount to some decent bench play.
But this draft (and last years) is so much different than that – our third round pick isn’t a no-name and we didn’t trade half our draft for RW. Tyron Smith, Carter and Murray will almost certainly contribute, the question is how much.
These are guys that are high on the list of most draft boards you can find.
Strangely enough, I didn't need the time
Bad drafting teams don’t suddenly become good drafting teams when the HC changes unless they have a lot of control over personnel like Tuna had.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Gimmee that wayback thingamabob before ya hurt yourself, rook
And us.
C’mon, show ya how this time travel stuff works. First, we stop for a bite at Mia’s evening of February 24, 1989, have a chat with a couple of fellas, make a quick pitstop on the way back to help Stephen out with the old man September 8, 1995 just in case the chat didn’t take with those two clowns and get back here to find this whole draft controversy moot.
Oh, and so you’ll be happy, yes, we’ll stop by April 18, 1998 too, you can do your convincing and we’ll see how that panned out when we get back. It’s ok, Jerry’ll remember us from dinner. Who knows, the other JJ might yet be there, to boot. Depends on whether they paid attention after we risked everything and threw away our world, our time, just to help ‘em out. Might even end up telling ya I was just plain wrong (if ya remember the debate). If so, it’ll be with a smile since we’ll be toasting more time with you know who (now that you’ve been reminded, that is).
Shame I busted that damned thing popping back into reality, eh. G’wan, you’ll never prove it was on purpose.
Oh, and if ya try claim credit for your good deeds, remember, only you and me know they ever happened any different and this is just the way it was to everbody else. The JJ’s maybe got on a bit better a bit longer, if not the Sanders fiasco didn’t lead us into the wasteland, we got to see Triplets II, Stephen’s handling day-to-day and de facto GM’ing and the JJ’s eventually realized they shoulda listened and patched things up between themselves. So much so, Jerry listened to Jimmy, snagged Troy’s old backup, yeah, the wunderkid the Giants had slotted for themselves. Talk was they were grooming him for for even more down the road. Whatever, he’s back home now. Might have the makings of a coach to be reckoned with. Jimmy seems to think so, but we’ll see…
Oh, good luck with the job interview. Jerry said something about some Cisky guy not working out, needing someone to scout cheerleaders in addition to the player side, so I figure this’ll be the last we see of each other for a time. You’re gonna be a busy busy fella. Guess I’ll see ya at Mike’s induction. Yeah, amazing eh? And nobody thought Rice’s numbers could be touched. Other than that one scary snag in Philly, but man, when he popped up, shut them Eagles fans up and trotted back to the huddle, it was like nuthin’ happened and….- well, like they say, the rest’s history.
btw, about time ya changed that moniker, don’tcha think. You’re a few behind.
Happy?
ps. I busted it before we left. See ya. Some Time down the road.
And. That’s. How. It’s. Done. rook.
Wow
I wanted to comment on this, but not sure what to say. I am as speechless MJ Fox was when he realized his Dad was a peeping tom…but don’t worry, I’ll keep a look out for the Libyans
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
You've always been near and dear to my heart
Here’s the keys to that gizmo.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Jimmy's hair is still the same!
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I agree with the trade and selecting Castonzo
but thats where your draft stops making sense. We then should have packaged pick 40 and 49 to move back into the first round and selected Cam Heyward. Getting Castonzo and Heyward in and of itself would make this a great draft.
Selecting Moore might on the surface seem like a good choice but that dude is very overrated, would much rather have Heyward.
Ijalana and Rackley were “name” players but I trust the Cowboys board and the fact they liked Arkin better.
I do however think Black will be a player, but I can respect the fact they liked Thomas better.
Finally, bling, you never reach for a player under any circumstances, I don’t care how glaring your needs may be.
In Romo we Trust
I thought about that, but one could not be sure that an OG would be there for us in round 3
…and I think I made clear my intentions about the O-line being almost a singular focus for this and draft and however many others it takes to rebuild the front wall into one other clubs envy.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
and the draft isn't the only way to rebuild the OL
While the majority of your rebuilt OL should be higher draftees, there is always FA to fill out the remaining needs, such as guard. Can usually get a good one for decent value ie Kosier
In Romo we Trust
Which O-lines are the best in the NFL?
Pats?
G-Men?
Ravens?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
none of the Above....
With Arkin, Nagy and Smith…Ours, hands down….
With the 9th Pick Dallas Selects Tyron Smith...Romo Weeps in Joy, and Bennet says"I might get to go out in the Pass Pattern now!"
by I am Ironman!!! on May 4, 2011 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Seriously?
Or were you joking?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
sort of
possibly, kinda in a way yes
With the 9th Pick Dallas Selects Tyron Smith...Romo Weeps in Joy, and Bennet says"I might get to go out in the Pass Pattern now!"
by I am Ironman!!! on May 5, 2011 12:11 AM CDT up reply actions
I would agree.
I can’t believe the G-Men came up in this discussion of great lines. They are definitely not a top offensive line.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
JETS Jets Jets Jets
…have 4 of 5 starters drafted by their team and have invested high picks on both starters (Mangold and Brick) and depth (Ducasse).
Dallas had two players on the front wall that were drafted by them last year. Gurode and Free.
And we wonder why the O-line constantly lets them down in the clutch….
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Hey I totally agree.
Hence why I was encouraged with picking 3 O-lineman. It shows a commitment to upgrade that unit.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
1st 4th and 7th is not 1st, 3rd and 4th.
after the 3rd round, the likelihood of players sticking on the teams that drafted them falls off of a cliff.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
1st 4th and 7th > What we have done previously.
Plus, for someone who has been preaching about hitting needs, I don’t think the best way to do that is to use three picks on one subunit in the the first four rounds.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
Why not?
I think my post outlines the why behind the what pretty clearly.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
But one that was clearly there for the taking, right?
So, not hypothetical in the truest sense…
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Perhaps, perhaps not
Heard statements to the effect. Hearsay. Even if I hear Jax confirm them, it’s merely corroborating evidence, not concrete. I didn’t hear/read the direct communication (phone call?), have no concrete evidence as to it’s being “there for the taking”.
But, indications are that the probability exists to a degree that I think the hypothetical on this can be reasonably assumed.
Close enough to a “yes” for you? From me? You know until I get presented the “fact” (verified recording or such) that’s about as good as it’s gonna get, right?
May never happen
So, I’ll take that as a yes.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Well anytime you are investing 3 picks in one subunit
the opportunity cost is the possibility of investing in other needs such as ILB, RB, DE. And it’s not so much that I disagree with what you did, I just thought it was odd to see such draft heavy on one subunit when I feel like we just discussed the fact that the Cowboys didn’t address their needs well enough. In other words, I would have expected a draft that was more diverse at the top from you. Nothing wrong with what you did, but I just find the two views slightly incongruous.
And regardless, the main point I was making is that the Cowboys are finally showing a willingness to invest in O-line. Maybe not as strong as you would like, but they certainly are investing more than they have in the past.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
Yes...I wanted a DE, but nobody made sense
Like I said, going OT, Safety, OG, OG made sense only because;
of who was available when they were available and,
the fact that if you look at picks over several drafts, I was making up for lost time (and picks) on the subunit at the expense of the DE spot
I can live with it because I don’t think Dallas is a team teetering on the edge of 14-2 and home field advantage throughout the playoffs. We’ll have to look at DE again next year.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
One reason
I like the reasoning of your re-do, though it’s not something I totally agree with, but as an alternative see merit in. The focus contained in a still-broader perspective. While I’d probably have picked the D 1st, going OL 2nd and mid-to-late slots, I’ll say living sans a prime-picked DE for a year ain’t gonna kill this team or make it #1 either.
Would you have gone with Fairley at 9 and come back to OL later?
Maybe Orlando Franklin in round 2?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
No. Frankly...
My rather nebulous draft thoughts were more like Watt, Wisniewski, possibly ILB in 3rd, maybe secondary or OL depending on availability, flush out the OL mid-to-late, possibly the project WR/whatever late round and deal with a starting OT and FS in FA. So be glad I’m not in the war room, but then with the responsibility thing comes more thought, more using the resources at hand to make the call. I recognize I’m no expert. I just put the pieces in place and set them up to work and not fail. That’s my job, not drafting per se. If the final call’s mine, I listen to advice, reason it out, then make the call. And we’d be screwed, blued and tattooed.
I’m just not as invested in this draft stuff as many of you. I let it play out and deal with reality. Because it’s not in my hands.
Now, if in an area of expertise, I’m supposed to make Hitler look open-mindedly reasonable by comparison. So I’m told, but it’s by people so it’s not credible. Actually, the word was tyrant, not Hitler.
I'll distill that to Watt, Wisniewski and Martez Wilson
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
So you're implying...
Carter would have gone between 40th and 71st. Mouton (61, Bolts), then Moch, Irving, and Sheppard (66,67,68, respectively), then us at 71, with Wilson taken at 72. Put the “available at the slots that I picked them in so there’s no goofyness about potential trades that were unlikely” aside for this, please. There’s no trade involved, simply that Carter would have gone between 40 and 71. I’m not so sure SD, Cincy, Denver or Buffalo would have taken Carter, but apparently you are. Are you?
I think I’d have listened to the advice and taken Carter. Given similar info that’s come to my attention since the pick. Beforehand, frankly, hadn’t nailed down any particular LB as the pick, just the position in 3/4/5th.
Yeah, it’s hindsight on my part. The pick’s grown on me. Could be worth the risk. I would so love to see any “due diligence” done on this to ascertain just how thorough it was/wasn’t and just what’s behind this call on our guys’ part. My suppositions on that “due diligence” concern me, but there’s something nagging at me about old boys club forthrightness.
I think it is safe to say he would have gone between 40th and 71st, yes
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Possible, but doubtful
Ayers went, we took Carter, but it didn’t start a run on LB’s, no clustering immediately following those 2 picks. Nothing till SD took Mouton at 61, with the others coming clustered following that. Notice Mouton/Moch are considered OLB, Sheppard/Irving inside. Carter’s considered OLB by most, so it’d likely be the Mouton/Moch picks, not Sheppard/Irving. So SD or Cincy. Both took the safe route, not high risk. If there is a safe route in drafting, but you see what I mean about it being non-injured players, not controversial in such regards.
Add in people (Mayock, for one) spouting rumors about Carter’s injury status, it being severe enough to possibly trash his season, the leeriness the picked LBs signify in terms of risk ventured by the respective team, I’d have to say it’s unlikely he’d have been picked. Hell, look at the initial storm it caused among our own fanbase. Each team taking a LB played it safe, us aside. I’d say it’s just as safe to say Carter woulda been there at 71. Hindsight, it’s wonderful. Therefore, just as safe to say Watt, Wisniewski, Carter as Watt, Wisniewski, Wilson.
Anyways, didn’t happen. Violates your “slot available” condition, but an interesting difference of opinion. Thanks for putting aside the condition and answering it.
That's right, because this was a weak class for OLB's for the 3-4
…and teams want edge rushers like Ware and Dumervil.
But I think it is still safe to say Carter would have pushed down other guys because he looks like a great fit as a Will in a 4-3 for teams like the Bears and Raiders.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Yep, right. Also right on it's...
Possible, though Bears waited till 6th and Oakland didn’t take a LB at all. Therefore, safe to say it wouldn’t happened that way too. The whole draft dynamic could have changed with one seemingly insignificant change somewhere along the line. Never know how things’ll pan out till it’s done. Then it’s too late to change the doing.
Agreed
So you play the odds. The odds said take the deal.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
One could only hope...
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I agree and Smith is like D’Brickashaw Ferguson. At least they say he is.
But with Free and Smith and Arkin I think the Cowboys line is going to be pretty good from now on.
by Jonathan Stern on May 6, 2011 8:13 AM CDT up reply actions
At one point, Anthony Spencer was supposed to be like Terrell Suggs
I get nervous about any comparisons to elite pros that get made on the strength of Dallas’ scouting reports.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
You're living in the past man....
Giants Oline let them down last year, and at this point is getting old with the injuries piling up and noone to take their place after another draft devoid of olineman.
Pats and Ravens olines are kinda one-dimensional in my opinion, though both are high on the list for sure.
I would take the Saints and Jets OL over both of theirs. Probably the Titans too (very underrated, too bad they don’t have a qb)
Easy tiger, I was just asking...
So, the Saints. Not sure I agree but lets play it out.
4 of their starting 5 were drafted by the team. Only their center, Goodwin came via FA.
New England? same deal with 4/5 being drafted and lots of high round investment in starters and depth.
Ravens? wow, 4 of 5 (I see a pattern developing!!!) drafted and with early round picks too!
My point? Well, Dallas cannot expect to have anything more than a serviceable O-line unless they start investing 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks in the unit.
If Kosier leaves and Bigg plays Fatt and Sloww again, how is Dallas going to look with Montrae Holland and Travis Bright or David Arkin starting on the interior? Yeesh! Justin Tuck would be drooling and Romo would probably pray for a season-long lockout in that case.
I keep hearing how Dallas will sign FA’s to fill the needs, but so far, I count a starting OG, a starting safety and a starting DE as must-have’s because of our known deficiencies in those areas.
Did anyone stop to look at our current salary situation? I think the idea of signing Cullen Jenkins, Michael Huff and Logan Mankins is a pipe dream.
What’s this team going to do?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
It is a pipe dream
No. Nightmare. Should be thought of more as a Spears/Bowen, Blalock/?, Huff/Weddle, tone down those over-the-top expectations and suck it up with some of what we have, for better or worse. It’s reality.
Tell ya what, let’s ask JG/RR/SJ/JJ, see what their overall plan is? If we get a befuddled look, well…
The draft was an indication to me that they are (still) somewhat befuddled
…or maybe they put TOO MUCH faith in Houck.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Perhaps, either way time'll tell
And I mean that both ways. Maybe more, as it might not be Houck-restricted.
How good is Heyward? How good will he be?
If the Cowboys take Castonzo and Heyward are they are solid players but not special but Tyron Smith is a probowler that the Cowboys passed up then Cowboys bombed in the draft.
by Jonathan Stern on May 5, 2011 11:11 PM CDT up reply actions
You mean like they usually do?
or would this be a different type of bomb?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
They haven’t drafted well I agree but they didn’t draft all that well when Parcells was coach.
Bobby Carpenter was his guy.
No one doubts that Parcells is a great coach , but as a drafter?
Most great coaches are not great personal people so Parcells is not alone in this regard .
by Jonathan Stern on May 6, 2011 8:02 AM CDT up reply actions
Tuna acquired a lot of talent in a short time
Ware, Witten, Romo, Austin, Ratliff
I think he did a pretty good job of infusing young talent into Dallas.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Disagree
Smith has a higher ceiling and mroe potential, I think he will reach it due to his work ethic, Garrett’s coaching, and circumstances (ability to play RT for a while) and thus be better than Castonzo
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
But potenital unrealized = bust
Vernon Gholston had tremendous potential.
Castonzo has a track record of high performance against the best his peer group could offer up.
Smith doesn’t have that same resume.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
And yet the Patriots passed on Costanzo for the questionable Solder.
Things that make you go hmmmmm….
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
Vollmer was viewed similarly last year
He’s a budding star now.
And lest we forget, people maligned the Logan Mankins pick at the end of the 1st when they took him.
I think it’s VERY safe to say that they know O-line talent up there in Foxborough better than most war rooms, don’t you?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Ahhhh but that wasn't my point.
If Costanzo was truly as good as Smith in most team’s opinions, why did he go third out of the tackles and drop past some teams that definitely could have used some O-line help?
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
Different teams, different needs, different philosophies
It seems NE wants these long armed guys with smarts, mobility and not as much strength as some other teams.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
All I am saying is that it has to put some doubt in your mind
about Costanzo being equivalent to the #1 tackle in this class.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
Not true
It’s like saying all teams must have thought Newman was better than Trufant or that everyone thought Eli was better than Rivers.
When I see multiple players go within the same round and within 10-15 picks of each other, I think that has more to do with preference and fit…or the teams may just be an epic fail when it comes to scouting.
Case in point: Felix, Mendenhall and CJ2K.
I think it is clear that not every team saw those players the same way on their board.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Fair enough.
But I think even you could admit the picture is pretty muddled at this point as to what the official consensus was on the tackles.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
Dirk Nowitzki = Absolutely the most underrated basketball player of all-time
Absolutely
Unlike how Suh was clearly viewed as the better prospect than McCoy.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
The Cowboys disagree with you.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
As do the Patriots.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
Well, the Cowboys and I have a long-standing disagreement on O-line draft prowess
On balance, I look like a draft god compared to them over these past several years.
Notice that my draft would have been eerily similar, at the top, to Bill Polian’s. Would you give Jerry the nod over Polian when it comes to drafting talent from the collegiate ranks?
I’d venture to say, given their draft history, that when the Dallas War Room disagrees with you, that probably connotes something very good.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
But the Patriots also disagreed with their taking of Solder over Costanzo.
Doesn’t that start to say something about this idea that Costanzo = Smith?
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
No, because the NE O-line isn't built like the Indy one
Indy uses running as a way to close out games, but nobody fears it.
NE uses running the ball as a way to keep the defense from blitzing Brady.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Eh. I still think that if Costanzo=Smith
that he would have gone to the Patriots. I think it definitely creates some doubt about your O-line rankings.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
How is that NOT like saying all teams must have the same draft boards?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I see what you are saying
but if you were in court and asked if the Patriots actions created reasonable doubt, I think you would have to answer affirmatively. Is that fair?
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
Dirk Nowitzki = Absolutely the most underrated basketball player of all-time
I think it created a belief that there was no unanimity of thought among the war rooms
Nothing more could be inferred in court.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Agreed.
But admitting there is no unanimity of thought is a positive step in my eyes.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
Dirk Nowitzki = Absolutely the most underrated basketball player of all-time
Generally speaking...
the unanimity of which we speak ends artound pick #5 in every draft, doesn’t it?
Given that, I don’t know if it is saying all that much of anything.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I think it can mean something when centered on positional rankings.
Unanimity is easier to find there than cross-positional rankings that determine the order of picks in the draft.
Regardless, when you are asserting that Costanzo = Smith, I think it is very important to understand that that thought process was not reflected by the actions of the teams in the draft. That is been what I have been trying to get at. Whether or not other teams agree with you is something we will never know (there may be some). But what we do know is that the Cowboys, Patriots, and others didn’t value them that way. And when you consider that, it becomes a lot harder to accept your assertion that Smith = Costanzo.
If I had a nickel for every time the Eagles won the Super Bowl, I would have zero nickels
Dirk Nowitzki is absolutely the most underrated basketball player in the league right now. He is one of four players all-time to average 25+ points and 10+ rebounds in the playoffs.
Again
Not true. You’ve made an assumption based on limited information and asserted that we “do know” what we certainly don’t know.
It could very well be that Solder was considered the best of the bunch by the Patriots and that Smith and Castonzo were both considered equals, but not on par with Solder.
As a result, there’s very little that you can derive from the actual events that would lead you to make any statements like the one you made.
Make sense?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Ahmad Black wouldn't fit our defense well. He's an in the box type of safety, teams like Tampa Bay, who play Cover 2 look for those types of players.
The reason we drafted Roy Williams was because we ran elements of the Cover 2 before Parcells made the switch to the 3-4 zone blitzing defense. Safeties in that scheme take on more Pass Coverage responsibilities, unless you’re a freak like Troy Polamalu. That switch coincides with the timing of Roy’s decline.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
uh, correction
Safeties inthatour scheme take on more Pass Coverage
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
You may be right
…but he’s shown a nose for the ball.
It’s worth a flier at #143…
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I don't want to get into the various posts that are talking about our need at safety but...
I do think that’s an issue that will be resolved in FA.
I didn’t like the safeties that were in this draft, I don’t necessarily think that any of them are better than the FA’s that are out there.
I’m much more concerned about the interior line to be quite honest. I think there are some solid safety options to sign in the FA, I’m not so certain about the guards.
AFB Condensed- New name, same flavor.
Good OG FA list
As always, OCC had a great post about Dalls OL and available FA back in Feb. showing their PFF grades too.
To name a few: Nicks, Mankins, Dahl, Blalock
I also think Arkin’s competition for the #1 backup OG this season and garrett’s coaching mentality could help Davis’ motivation and performance. Kosier is getting old and injury prone, but he did well when he played. For all his bad/off-timing snaps, Gurode still plays well. We certainly still need help – future starters – but with the FA available and new coaching regime, I think we’ll be alright. They did play better once Garrett became interim and brought back pads and full contact practicing once in a while.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Having an inury prone guy practice in pads is scary
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Grrrrrrrrrr
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
These guys are also not going to come cheap
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
they won't be cheap but guards are rarely that expensive.
If we have the opportunity to cut players without it counting against the cap, then Barber, maybe Roy (because our cap situation is pretty awful), Columbo and Davis (who I think is still getting paid a ton) could all be gone, and that would open up quite a bit of room.
Its hard to believe you couldn’t find a guy on that list who would take significantly less then we paid Davis
Nicks and Mankins will earn as much or more than Bigg
They are both too highly regarded and the bidding war among tems wanting to upgrade there will be furious.
I love Dahl because of his mean streak. But Atlanta wants to keep him and has room.
Blalock may be the guy that could take less, but really, how much less? After all, this is a pretty short list when you consider there are 64 starting OG spots in the NFL and many teams need an upgrade.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Bigg is getting a ton of money.
Evans is the highest paid OL at 7 years, 56 million. Hutchingon and Davis are 7 years 49 million. I don’t know the rest, but I doubt there are any others that high.
Mankins will get a ton, but not so many years. I don’t see Nicks getting that much. The others I see closer to 30 million over 6 years or so. Like this guy:
http://blogs.nfl.com/2010/02/17/titans-amano-now-one-of-nfls-highest-paid-guard/
Not to mention, with 2011 likely being capless, we could give them a high 1st year as a replacement for a bonus, so it won’t affect us down the line like Bigg’s contract is.
If there is a cap, we’re screwed anyway. it may be wise for the organization to dump both Newman and Roy if we can before the new cap gets put in place, in which case cb is as big a need as guard. Because as of now, we are in a really bad position.
There's gonna be a cap
…isn’t there?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Meh
I definitely see your points, but I have to agree to disagree with you here bud. I think our draft played out perfectly. Only time will tell whether you or I are right. Good write up though.
Agree 100% with Ahmad Black. After listening to Mayock talk about him and describe his “football” speed, I think we shoulda taken a flier on the guy.
You realize that recent history is on my side, right?
:-)
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Unfortauntely you're right about that.
But I’m an eternal optimist by nature, so I’m gulping down the kool-aid right now.
The fact that Wade Phillips is not longer ripping this franchise apart piece by piece, gives me even more hope. As I’ve said before, I think Bill Parcells did a great job changing the culture of this franchise, top to bottom. However, Wade Philips slowly dismantled everything Parcells tried to build. It really says something when your own scouts don’t even like you (Phillips). I think Jason Garrett at least has the confidence and football savvy to do things right, something few can say about Phillips as a head coach.
To elaborate further
Imagine where we would be right now if Parcells had stayed a couple more years and won a playoff game or two. He had this franchise on the fast track to greatness, but he left before he could completely change the culture around Valley Ranch. And think of how great it would have been to have Garrett studying under Parcells. Both of those guys share the same basic football philosophy. We could have had a smooth transition from one competent head coach to the other. Look at what happened to Sean Payton after he spent a couple of years under Parcells. Love or hate the guy, Big Bill knows how to build winning football teams. And Cupcake Phillips knows how to destroy them.
OK, I’m done with my Wade bashing for the evening. Good night and good luck.
Imagine where...
we’d be right now if Jerry/Parcells had had the smarts to ease Bill up into some kind of consultant-to-the-GM, GM or franchise architect role, move Payton up to HC as some may recall longing for. Some even ranting at the continued stupidity of this franchise. Imagine. Hey, there’s a tune there…
btw, it ain’t hindsight. It’s piss-offedness. Jerry doesn’t listen to me. Good thing most of the time. But every once in a freakin’ blue moon…
Not that it’s something a quajillion other people didn’t see.
Parcells is a great motivator and he did change the way business was done by the Cowboys but was he a great evaluator of talent?
I know that he wanted Spears instead of Ware in 2005. Where would the Cowboys be now had that been the case?
by Jonathan Stern on May 5, 2011 11:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Witten, Ware, Romo, Austin, Ratliff
Dallas’ big 5.
All acquired during Tuna’s reign.
Say what you will, but these 5 guys are the core of the team.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Parcells wanted Spears over Ware. I think other posters will back this statement up.
Parcells seems to be a good guy for free agents , but for high draft picks he isn’t really as good.
Romo and Austin were free agents. They should have been drafted. Ratliff was a 7th round pick. He ought to have gone higher. Parcells didn’t want Ware more than Spears.
I will give him credit for Witten.. But as I said when it comes to high choice Bill Parcells is only so-so.
Parcells is a great coach but he is not a great personal guy.
Even when he was with the Giants. I do know that he was not the Head Coach when Phil Simms and LT were drafted.
by Jonathan Stern on May 6, 2011 7:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Look, granted, Jerry and Bill haven't always proven...
to be stellar draft guys. Don’t hear anyone claiming they are. They’ve each contributed to building the franchise though, not always as effectively as hindsight allows us to see, not alwys in accordance with people’s likes, wants, preferences, “I told ya so’s” and all the rest.
Who’s to say what might’ve happened IF Payton had been in the mix, IF Romo had flopped, IF Jerry and Bill and Cisky and… had been suddenly eliminated from the picture. Didn’t happen.
No offense, Jon, once again you’re talking hindsight. Try this on for size, since the “Imagine” thread struck your fancy: Imagine if Jerry and Bill weren’t drafty drafters, but stellar. As in Star.
It would have been great if h e was a star drafter.
The only great coach I can think of who was also a great drafter was Bill Walsh.
Buddy Ryan he was a jerk but he also had a good eye for talent.
Jimmy Johnson had an eye for talent though he was not as good as people say he did. he did not really get the Cowboys Aikman, or Irvin. And he got Walker , Nate Newton , Tunei , Gogan from the old regime . Also Jimmy Johnson didn’t really think Michael Irvin was going to be a great pro when he came to Dallas.
What Jimmy Johnson was really good at was trading for players.He traded away Walker, Steve Walsh Steve Puller ,and Alexander Wright for way more than they were worth. Everyone talks about the Hershel Walker trade but there were trades other than that that were just as one sided.
Notice that Jimmy Johnson could not repeat his success in Miami. He didn’t have lots of players to trade away
by Jonathan Stern on May 6, 2011 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Spencer, Felix and Jenkins
vs. Ware, Spears and Barbie.
Barbie = bust
Spears = JAG
Ware = elite
Spencer = JAG
Felix = JAg verging on bust
Jenkins = I have no idea
That’s the first rounder comparison I can make.
Beyond that, who has Dallas gotten since that time that equates tot he UDFA’s and other draftees that I mentioned above?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I just don't get that.
How is Felix on the verge of being a bust?
He’s always had to split time. He played every game last season, and was improving in blitz pick up every single game. Had 1250 or so total yards behind an O-line that has been a topic of many a heated comments for going on three years now.
He had a better YPC than other big name backs such as Frank Gore and Steven Jackson, and better than a lot of running backs who share the load (both green and tomlinson, both Jonathan Stewart and Deangelo Williams, both Mcgahee and Rice)
Maybe i’ve got my silver and blue colored glasses on here, but i’d put him on the verge of breaking out, not busting.
You aint been around in awhile, maybe you haven't heard........I don't shine shoes no more
+1
We must have the same glasses. HAHA
I don’t get the Felix is nearly a bust debate. For his limited action on the field – which admittedly was partly based on him being slower to improve as a pass blocker than coaches would have liked and thus slow to take Barber’s starting job – he has the stats and averages to show he is better than most RB in this league. Last year he also showed his ability to contribute in the passing game…I think he is on the verge of breaking out too.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
And here it is...
his limited action on the field – which admittedly was partly based on him being slower to improve as a pass blocker than coaches would have liked and thus slow to take Barber’s starting job
I have to be consistent in my thinking. Felix was never a full-time horse in college and when I saw him make a big play, he was running in space or through holes so big that you could line up Aaron Gibson, Ted Washington and Grady Jackson side by side and have them run through untouched.
Watching him now, I am unipressed by his ability to cut sharply, don’t see him breaking tackles and think he wears down easily.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Career 5.3 avg yards/carry in a time with a downward trend at OL performance is pretty impressive. I still vividly remember the play against Carolina when he broke Charles Godfrey’s ankles with a slight juke.
I think you overexxagerate your pessimistic description.
And for the record.
Felix – career yards/carry avg – 5.3
Chris J. – career yards/carry avg – 5.0
Mendenhall – career yards/carry avg – 4.2
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Find me a GM who would take Felix over the other two
You can’t.
Know why? because he isn’t as good a RB
We can contract with a PR firm to try and spin it differently, keg, but I think you and I and everyone else knows it. The fact is, if we had taken one of the others, we’d be calling Jerry a genius. Instead, we’re pulling obcurities out of our hineys to help rationalize the possibilities of what could be. And that what 98% of all fans on every SB Nation site would do for THEIR guy.
the fact is that you can put those stats on the Mitsubishi at Cowboys Stadium and not one GM would take Felix over the others. Not even Jerry.
No, I’m not exaggerating.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
That's funny, because BEFORE the draft
That wasn’t the case. Jeff Fisher even said CJ was his second pick, that he wanted Felix first. Now why is it you practically guarantee that no one would take Felix when, since he’s been here, he hasn’t been in the same role as these other backs.
Chris Johnson practically carried that team on his back. These guys are lead back. Felix Jones has done nothing but produce when he’s on the field, I don’t understand how you think differently.
The stats are only obscure because they prove what we are saying. Show me something proving me wrong. You keep going off of nothing basically. We say “Hey this is his average production here, and it’s quite good” and you say “Well this guy and this guy would say this” You don’t know that.
We are putting facts out here, and your going off of what you believe. Felix isn’t a good running back? Man, get outta here with that.
You aint been around in awhile, maybe you haven't heard........I don't shine shoes no more
Facts (so we can dispense with the idea that I am going off of nothing)...
Fact: The more carries you get, the lower your APC gets.
Want to argue that? If so, let’s go.
Fact: CJ2K has touched the ball 1,062 times on offense and Felix has only 400 touches. With almost 3 times as many carries, CJ2K is averaging 5.0 YPC as the bell cow. Felix, with far less carries only maintains a .3 YPC edge.
Fact: CJ2K is one of a very small # of backs to rush for over 2,000 yards in a season. Felix hasn’t had a season with HALF that yet.
Fact: Cj2K is the focal point of his team’s offense and is ultra-productive. Felix is a complimentary back.
Fact: Felix scores a TD once in every every 48 carries. CJ2K scores a TD every 27 carries.
Fact: CJ2K has missed one game in his 3-year career. Over that same period, Felix has played a full season only once.
I can keep going. But why? The point is overwhelmingly made. I’m not trying to convince you otherwise if your unwilling to be open-minded. But that just makes you wrong.
The rule of thumb, Mark, is that when you’re in a hole, continuing to dig is a poor strategy.
As for the whole pre-draft thing, you may be right. But that wasn’t the question now, was it?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
A few things
First, he’s a durability question. Sorry, but he is.
Next, he was taken before bellcow RB’s CJ2K and Mendenhall and they have both outperformed him.
Finally, the selection of Murray suggests that JG doesn’t believe in giving Felix a significant number of touches (again, this is a passing league and we have Witten, Miles and Dez, who all need their targets), so he’ll actually be further marginalized IF Murray proves to be at all capable.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
This again?
Next, he was taken before bellcow RB’s CJ2K and Mendenhall and they have both outperformed him.
Seriously?…Lets look at their careers…shall we? Via NFL.com
.
Felix Jones:
Att- Yards- Avg- TD….Rec Yds Avg TD
331- 1,751- 5.3 - 7—- 69- 579- 8.4- 1
.
Chris Johnston
.
Att- Yards- Avg- TD….. Rec yards Avg TD
925- 4,598- 5.0 - 34—- 137 1,008 7.4 4
How can you say Felix has been out performed? other than TDs that is……I would say that they are roughly equal considering that Johnson has almost 3 times as many carries, and has had a slightly better O-line(at least a better run blocking one)
With the 9th Pick Dallas Selects Tyron Smith...Romo Weeps in Joy, and Bennet says"I might get to go out in the Pass Pattern now!"
by I am Ironman!!! on May 6, 2011 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Because 4,598 > 1,751
Why is that so hard to understand?
IaI, you can homer your way through this juxtaposition as much as you want, but nobody who sees it clearly thinks Felix is better than Johnson.
Sorry bro, it’s the truth.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
yes that is easy to understand
but guess what…
4,902(what Felix would have by maintaining his current avg at 925 carries)> 4,598….
and I never said that Felix was better merely equal….if you take the amount of carries into consideration….Johnson has 2.79 times the amount of carries that Felix does…..
Sorry bro, it’s the truth.
you cannot legitimately say that either one is superior, as they are on different teams with two completely different O-lines and Offensive philosophies….
With the 9th Pick Dallas Selects Tyron Smith...Romo Weeps in Joy, and Bennet says"I might get to go out in the Pass Pattern now!"
by I am Ironman!!! on May 6, 2011 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions
I can
…and I did.
I can always find reasons/stats/outlandish drug-induced epiphanies to say Felix is better than Adrian Peterson, but he isn’t.
The reason he has more carries is that he’s more durable. Like I said before?
The O-line thing conjures up arguments that I can’t enter into because then you’re playing the Sanders versus Emmitt thing and you’ll never leave that argument feeling fulfilled.
Their production is their production.
Your argument is wholly flawed because you want to blame a lack of production on something outside of their control.
Felix < CJ2K
There’s no denying it, even for a Cowboys fan like me.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
That's absolutely ridiculous
So this number is bigger than that number, and that’s all that matters?
That’s as “inside the box” in thinking as you can get.
You aint been around in awhile, maybe you haven't heard........I don't shine shoes no more
Emmitt has more yards than Curvin Richards
I expect you’ll be making a case that Curvin was better now.
Waiting with baited breath…
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
how many carries for what avg?
tell me that then talk….
With the 9th Pick Dallas Selects Tyron Smith...Romo Weeps in Joy, and Bennet says"I might get to go out in the Pass Pattern now!"
by I am Ironman!!! on May 8, 2011 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly my point
Thank you.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
And I have NEVER said that Felix was superior
I simply state that they are equal…..which the Stats bear out…
Chris Johnson -5.0 ypc
Felix Jones-5.3ypc
the only difference is that Johnson has gotten 900+carries vs Felix getting 330 carries….that is the only point that I have ever made.
With the 9th Pick Dallas Selects Tyron Smith...Romo Weeps in Joy, and Bennet says"I might get to go out in the Pass Pattern now!"
by I am Ironman!!! on May 8, 2011 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions
So...
let me try to understand, IAI…
You use one stat, APC, as the singular measure for discerning if one RB is better (or “equal”) than another.
Do I have that right?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
yes
do you have a better stat? total yards?
determined by avg…
total carries? determined by offensive philosophy and to a certain extent avg…
Show me a stat that is NOT determined by avg….and is independent of any other stat, and I will use that…..
With the 9th Pick Dallas Selects Tyron Smith...Romo Weeps in Joy, and Bennet says"I might get to go out in the Pass Pattern now!"
by I am Ironman!!! on May 8, 2011 9:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Okay, so...
What you’re saying is that Jamaal Charles is a better back than Felix, but not CJ2K. Interesting…to say the least.
But, because his AYPC is higher (5.3), you’re also saying that Felix is better than Barry Sanders, Jim Taylor, OJ Simpson and Gayle Sayers.
By the way, Emmitt smith’s Average Yards per Carry is 4.2. I’’d like to get your thoughts on how Felix compares to him, too.
BTW, Michael Vick has the best AYPC in the NFL record books with 7.1 YPC.
IaI, after reading all of this, are you sure you want to continue to use this metric as the singular measure to rank players who run the ball?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
first off
But, because his AYPC is higher (5.3), you’re also saying that Felix is better than Barry Sanders, Jim Taylor, OJ Simpson and Gayle Sayers.
I never said that, and don’t know how you infered that…All those players you mentioned played years ago, in a “run first NFL”…I would never say that Felix was better than any of them….
By the way, Emmitt smith’s Average Yards per Carry is 4.2. I’’d like to get your thoughts on how Felix compares to him, too.
Emmitt was the best EVER…nuff said
BTW, Michael Vick has the best AYPC in the NFL record books with 7.1 YPC.
Micheal Vick is a QB that happens to run a what, 4.3 40?…..
IaI, after reading all of this, are you sure you want to continue to use this metric as the singular measure to rank players who run the ball?
I never said it wasn’t without flaws…but seeing as you didn’t provide me with a better stat, like I asked, I will simply take that to mean that there isn’t one….thus I will use the best tool at my disposal…Now whether it is more akin to using a 15 pound sledge hammer to drive a roofing nail…is a different story, but if all you have is a 15 pound sledge and the roof needs fixing…..
With the 9th Pick Dallas Selects Tyron Smith...Romo Weeps in Joy, and Bennet says"I might get to go out in the Pass Pattern now!"
by I am Ironman!!! on May 9, 2011 6:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually, my point was, the stat is inherently flawed
…and I think I backed that up pretty well with my Jamaal Charles example.
I think the biggest problem with the way you are discerning between backs is that you’ve self-limited yourself to a stat that you think supports your argument, but, as we’ve seen, really doesn’t.
The anecdotal rebuttals asking that we try to contextualize why some examples work and some don’t prove that out conclusively.
Instead, how about looking at a larger view.
When you see these two guys on the field, do you really think the two have the same value?
How about Fantasy football? Think Felix goes around the same time Johnson does?
What about looking at some of the stats I used alongside the one that you landed on? What do those tell you?
If you put up a poll on all of the SB Nation sites not related to the titans and cowboys, do you think most people would vote with you and say they are equal in stature? or would they think differently? and if they overwhelmingly voted in favor of CJ2K, would that change your opinion in any way?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
no it wouldn't
because for the most part CJ is more well known to people outside of Cowboys fans….thus he would get more votes….
Actually, my point was, the stat is inherently flawed
…and I think I backed that up pretty well with my Jamaal Charles example.
as I have said, a 15 pound sledge isn’t Ideal for fixing a roof, but if that is all you have, and the roof is leaking…..
What about looking at some of the stats I used alongside the one that you landed on? What do those tell you?
which ones? these?:
Fact: CJ2K has touched the ball 1,062 times on offense and Felix has only 400 touches. With almost 3 times as many carries, CJ2K is averaging 5.0 YPC as the bell cow. Felix, with far less carries only maintains a .3 YPC edge.
Fact: Felix scores a TD once in every every 48 carries. CJ2K scores a TD every 27 carries.
those “stats”? you want to know why I don’t use them? Cause they tell me nothing. All they show is that A. Tenneesse runs more than Dallas does, and B. they use CJ more along the goal line….has nothing to do with either of them being “better” but is merely a representation of their offensive philosophies. Other than the missed games due to injury, and who is to say that If the roles where reversed that CJ wouldn’t be the one getting the “injury prone Label”, none of the stats that you have shown show that CJ> Felix.
With the 9th Pick Dallas Selects Tyron Smith...Romo Weeps in Joy, and Bennet says"I might get to go out in the Pass Pattern now!"
by I am Ironman!!! on May 9, 2011 11:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Those other stats tell you nothing else?
…and why do you think Johnson is more well-known than Felix?
Felix plays for the most media-centric team in the NFL and plays the same position as Johnson who plays in a b-tier market.
What do you think the main reasons would be that people know Johnson so well?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I have to say, previous to that draft
I had watched a few East Carolina games and I was hooked. DOn’t get me wrong, I am not claiming to have “known” he would have turned out to be this great. But we had Barber and CJ2K would have been a chance I was willing to take.
Still not ready to give up on Felix, but he had better watch out for Murray.
And there it is...
the guy who is supposedly “equal to” CJ2K should be looking over his shoulder at a guy we took in the third round.
I wonder if Chris Johnson is worried about keeping his job safe?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
2 Were undrafted; 1 is a 6th rounder; 1 is a 3rd rounder; and the other is a 1st roudner he didn't want.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
Again, they came on board during his tenure
If you’re going to berate him for the ones he didn’t get, you have to give him credit for the ones he did hit on…regardless of the circumstances.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
I got the sense Parcells couldn't wait to wash his hands of this goofy bunch.
Whether that be the owner, the QB, or at the time, T.O.
Good for him to get out when he did because as it turns out the only thing worse than the blooper in Seattle was the parade of errors in the final twenty minutes of the loss to the Giants.
Bill was so wearied by it all...
he may’ve questioned his decision to take the job, though it fit into a vague idea he may have had to be perceived as a franchise architect kind of guy who grew out of the coaching ranks when it comes to NFL historical perspective.
I agree
The T.O. thing was the last straw and I don’t believe Jerry has, or ever will, hand over the keys to JG or anyone not named Jones.
so I don’t know how much to pin on JG for this “missed opportunity” but it will eventually come forward.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Well if.............
Got to get the train on the track. No point in looking back. These Boys gotta suit up and bring it. I will say this, if I was ruuning the show, we would have been picking at #5.
Beats my string of #1's
Think we suck now? Be thankful.
btw, great great comment , the “if I was runnning the show…”, absolutely outstanding
I don't see the point in engaging in revisionist activities.
Everyone has better clarity in hindsight. Nothing healthy can come from this. Maybe I just believe in looking forward, not back. All you’re doing here is providing names for the hacks to throw out there for the next 5 years, bitching about why we passed on this player, or that player.
I came to the realization a long time ago that as long as there’s an ocean of Cowboys fans out there, we were always going to hear someone complaining about what we didn’t do, or how they could have done it so much better. We had a decent draft IMO. I don’t like this one any better than the one we had. So you got two guards. Would they handle the kind of blocking duties Garrett was looking for? Did we get one of the two best ILBs in the draft? Did we get the best OT? It’s all a trade off. It always is. Personally, I’m warming up to the idea of getting Smith ready to play LT, and moving Free back to the right side.
We finally have a head coach I believe in. I think we all believe in him. He’s the first person in a long time that had Jerry’s ear. Jerry trusts Garrett. That’s where it had to begin. This team is going to move forward very steadily now. We just need to leave it alone and give the man a chance.
Sorry Blings. Don’t mean to sound negative about it, but haven’t we heard enough about what the team should have done? If these picks don’t work out three years from now I can understand this kind of post, but we oughta at least give them a chance to take the field once before we try to rethink the team’s objectives.
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem.
Try not to take it too seriously, WW
The point is that I go out on a limb and say what I would have done. 24 months from now, I get to compare how the group above panned out versus the guys we actually got.
I’m more likely to fall flat on my face, but what fun is there in saying, every year, that we love the way the draft fell?
In 2009, people were going on and on about how this new group would produce a pro bowl O-lineman in Brewster, a super fast, super athletic LB in Jason Williams (sound familiar?) and the best special teams in the league.
I countered with a different theory and, again, while it was risky, I had fun with it.
These guys haven’t played a down yet, so I am simply prognosticating for pure enjoyment’s sake.
Come on, did you LOVE every pick or is there someone you think they should have taken instead of who they took?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Okay, the truth...just for fun.
I wanted to trade down to 17 or 18 in one fell swoop and get the extra 2nd, maybe even a third. Draft Castonzo or Carimi and a guard and db in the second. DE in the third, ILB fourth, kicker fifth, depth in sixth and seventh. Buuuuuut, I didn’t hate it when we just went ahead and took Smith at nine. I was blown away by the Carter pick, but Mayock immediately started gushing about the pick. (All the while I just knew we were going to take Bowers.) They showed Carter’s vids right away and I was kind of laughing about his speed. When they took Murray my jaw dropped, but my kid launched from the sofa, hooting. He ran to the computer and started showing me vids, and again, I found myself giggling. After Smith I’d never heard of any of these guys.
Since then I’ve read and learned about all these guys, and have convinced myself that this was a good draft, and this team knows what it was doing for the first time in, wow, since Jimmy. You see, I was excited about Parcells, but deep down I kind of saw him as bumbling a little bit. And we now know Jerry only hired Parcells to get financing for his palace. Well, it’s different with Garrett. This is the first time I truly believe Jerry trusts someone. I think he tried to trust Wade, but deep down he knew Wade was incapable of getting in someone’s grill, and by extension, ultimately unable to lead this team.
I sense something different with Garrett. Jerry loves Jason as much as the rest of us do, and has since the day he hired him. I think Jason is the first football guy Jerry has ever respected. I believe Jason has Jerry reigned in, that Jerry is just as excited as the rest of us by what Jason has done so far, and he is going to let him run this team.
(okay I’m blushing a bit that by not being offended by my little rant, you baited me into spitting out the truth. Well played, blings….as usual.)
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem.
Oh, and you get a rec just for baiting me. lol
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem.
And where is our glorious leader?
Where’s the OCC stat on Jerry’s forefront media face-time? Even over only the past 5 years, or 10 if he chooses, or over the whole Jones reign, now that JG’s reined him in, if he has. I think, if anything, Jerry’s perhaps reined himself in, for a time at least.
It's the voodoo that I doo so well...
mainly because I don’t take anything that happens on BTB too seriously. I mean, come on. I’ve said some pretty dumb things on this blog.
On to your comments;
I think you may be onto something about Jerry’s affinity for Garrett.
But do you think he also had that kind of thing with Wade at one point? I think he did. I think he genuinely really likes Wade and thinks of him as a friend.
I’m with you on the 2nd and 3rd round picks. Regardless of what happens to Smith, I think I will go back and look at this draft as the one where the questionable ones had to come up big and the OG and DB that we could have taken all busted in order to see this as a success.
Thanks for putting it out there for public scrutiny. Dont’cha feel a little lighter for having done so? I always do…
:-)
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
HAHA
I think you are right about how JJ felt about Wade – who did show tangible success at first. However, I think the big difference is how Wade reacted with JJ vs. how Garrett is reacting. I think Wade didn’t want to rock the boat (though JJ might have allowed it) while Garrett is telling JJ what the boat should be like and JJ is listening. Not to mention the coaching “intangibles” that I think Wade was lacking and Garrett can provide. Meaning, given the same players drafted, Garrett would get them to progress further and faster…at least that is my hope and what I am inferring from the start of the Garrett Era.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Couldn't have said it better myself.
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem.
What will be interesting is what happens if they hit a rough patch
Will JJ step in earlier because of JG’s inexperience? Will Jerry have him on a shorter-than-normal leash?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Define shorter-than-normal.
Leash-wise. Jerry-wise.
If there’s a “rough patch” and Garrett doesn’t stick to his guns, he’s the wrong man for the job. Once again.
What if they go 3-5 out of the gate?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
We may get some evidence...
Vis-a-vis this nebulous change dynamic we speak of from time to time, its possible existence or not, it’s viability in the face of less than ideal circumstances, many such things. Actually, it may be an ideal scenario to provide some such evidence. I may, why you may just now be responsible for my wanting such a thing to occur. To see, to gather evidence once the media crap’s been filtered outta the way. Nahh, I’ll take the responsibility if I make that choice.
Are you saying JG has big brass cojones?
Plus the intellect and will to back them up, risk them and walk them out the door if confronted with an untenable situation?
No
I am going to lay it out in a future post, but for now, let’s say that is NOT what I am saying…
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
It was to Keg, Blings
But thanks for the content tip-off, beyond prior hints. You are gonna stir up a sh!tstorm. I’m stil waiting. You know how us impatient Cowboys fans are.
I know...
but the comments are fast and furious here and it’s keeping me busy!!!
Dontcha just love the chance to talk Cowboys even in the midst of a lockout?
God bless All of you…and BTB too!!!!
:-)
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Jerry loved Wade.
And trusted him. But you see it slipping away from Jerry, just like it slipped away from us. And yes, Jerry has reined himself in…because he knows he’s made mistakes, and because he feels like he has a real football man.
And yeah, I’m not ashamed that I’ve flip flopped from draft weekend. But it does put the kool-aide target on my back. Ahh, crisp refreshing drink.
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem.
Lots of carbs
The sugar is clouding your judgement.
HEY KOOL AID!!!
:-)
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Well if you were right then then you are a good evaluator of talent. In that case maybe you do know better.
But question would do your draft if you had reason to believe that Smith was sort of like Orlando Pace?
My guess is just you didn’t have T Smith high on your board.
by Jonathan Stern on May 6, 2011 8:10 AM CDT up reply actions
Actually this draft all comes down to this: if Smith is great then the Cowboys did great.
If Smith is a bust or isn’t any better th an the other guys then it is " well we told you so"\
This draft is about whether or not Smith is better than JJ Watt or Canstanzo or Carimi.
If you think he is then you are on one side and if you think he isn’t then you are on the other side.
Or as Garrett said about Tyron Smith:
“We like confident people in our organization; we like being around these kind of people,” Cowboys coach Jason Garrett said. “It’s a tribute to his approach.”
“We feel like he has the upside to be really one of the great players in this league,” the coach said. “He has a long way to go, he’s 20 years old and it’s Day 1 with the Dallas Cowboys. But if we go about it the right way each and every day, we feel like he has a chance to achieve his potential.”
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and Stephen Bowen can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
It's all about the process
You aint been around in awhile, maybe you haven't heard........I don't shine shoes no more
Rhetoric, BS, media-directed pablum
Pile of “outs” in there, to boot, JG. “If”, “the right way each and every day”, “we feel”, “chance” and the all-time winner of the To be, May be, Ain’t been yet, Shoulda been Award, Potential.
Do it. Then talk. Better yet, just smile and say nothing. Smart folks’ll key on it and know what ya mean.
This hasn't been discussed much yet, but...
If Smith doesn’t pan out as an elite tackle, that’s a tough one.
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem.
well he needs to at least be an average one.
top 10 picks don’t hit all the time, but if hes a total bust that would kill this team.
I think thats why we went with SMith over fairley frankly, because you can’t risk a bust so you take the guy who you know works his butt off and doesn’t have character concerns. Of course if Fairley didn’t have character concerns, he’d be one of the first 3 or 4 picks.
What if he is mee-dee-oh-kurr?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Actually, if he is a run of the mill starting RT, thats pretty much a bust
If hes like doug free, but not as good at LT, that would be about par for the course imo. The way the guy moves, puts his man on the ground in the run game and seems to hold up pretty well in pass blocking, he should be a very good RT. Anything less is a disappointment
If he develop into a great LT (and he has that ability), then hes one of the best picks in the draft without a doubt. Hes 20. This guy could shore up the most important position on the oline for over a DECADE.
Not so sure
I think it’s Smith, Carter and Murray vs. Castonzo, your favorite guys who were there at #40, #49 and #71. I picked Moore, Ijalana and Rackley but it could just as easily have been Wisniewski, Brandon Harris and Martez Wilson or Jarvis Jenkins, Da’Quan Bowers and John Moffit.
It’s the extra second rounder in return for passing on Smith and taking Castonzo that will end up being the crux of any future argument about this draft.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
maybe
If Smith is an All-Pro LT in the end, you set the 2nd most important position on offense for the next 12plus years. In that case, if Carter is an average starter and Murray’s career ends up like Felix’ (big plays but plagued by injuries), the draft will still be a success.
I also like the fact that ALL these picks have potential. Really, you have to extend it beyond the first 3 rounds because I think every single pick could contribute.
THE WHOLE KEY TO THE DALLAS DRAFT -
Bruce Carter’s knee is the whole key to this draft.
Philadelphia Sportswriter and former NFL Films guru Ray Diddinger said “If Carter is healthy then the Cowboys draft goes up 5 notches in my book.”
He concedes Carter is a first round talent when healthy. Tyron Smith and a healthy Bruce Carter top any trade down scenario if they both pan out. But it’s a risk.
Carter is almost a non-issue, isn't he?
The way I see it, they could still have taken Carter @ 40 if they’d made the trade.
The difference is that they’d end up with Castonzo, Carter and whoever they get at #49.
Am I reading that wrong?
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
True 5Blings
Carter would have still been there…I just hope Tyron Smith becomes an All-Pro level tackle and Carter becomes a force in the middle of the 3-4. This team can not miss on the first two rounds.
Castonzo dropped behind Solder (oddly in my opinion) and is more a can’t miss quality starter than Smith (age/weight issues) plus Carter (high risk/high reward) plus additional second rounder….
That’s tough logic to beat.
I thought so too
:-)
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Nick Fairley
Was on the board at nine.
I prefer Smith based on need, but Fairley could have solved a lot of problems defensively.
Well, at least on fairley, I can accept the whole "not the right kind of guy" logic behind passing on him
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Stupid Eagles!
I knew that last second TD against Philadelphia would hurt.
The number 9 pick was a tricky one.
What would you have done at #6?
Since that’s where we would have been…
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Gotten this...
Atlanta’s 1st this year, 1st next year, this year’s 2nd & 4th, and next year’s 4th. Then I use this years 1st and 2nd to trade back up to 9 and draft Tyron Smith. ur, except for that last part
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem.
Felix deserves a new chance behind a good OL
I though Felix was pretty good before last year . Maybe it was the OL
Congrats on a widely commented post
I agree with everything you said but I’m intrigued enough by Carter to pick him over Moore. Well said.
Agreed on 3 points
Nice tripod. Stable enough to stand on it’s own. And damn difficult to tip over. Well said.
Thanks
These kinds of things start becoming sub-posts of their own. It’s like being at a sports bar with only Cowboys fans and each table has a different topic on its minds;
Is Felix a bust?
Did JG call the shots on these picks?
Why didn’t they make the trade?
How does Castonzo compare to T. Smith?
Will Moore be better than a FA safety?
DeMarco Murray…really?
What does the “right kind of guy” mean and how would Irvin have stacked up?
If there was such a place anywhere in the world where this kind of thing really happened, I’d move to that city tomorrow and buy a house within walking distance from that bar.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
The flaw I see in this scenario is this...
Free has proven to be a very good left tackle. I doubt he’s gonna wanna go back to R/T and forego his upcoming left tackle payday. After all…if we don’t pay him his money, someone will.
I was more in favor of getting a solid road grader lower in the round for R/T to save the future problem of having two left tackles demanding left tackle cash. Carimi would have worked nicely in that regard.
Also, in your version of the draft, two new guards are coming into play. Will either of the college boys be ready to make the line calls for our center since he can’t?
I’ll have to disagree with your vision of the safeties you’d have taken in this years draft. I don’t see either of them as long term solutions. If we REALLY wanted to draft a safety, last year was our better chance. I think Free agency is on cousin Jerrys mind.
Besides, why draft two middling safeties when we already drafted AOA last year?
Outstanding
…really thoughtful comments.
I agree with you on Free and the idea of a big contract. But the good news is that they have to give him the contract first, so where he ends up lining up is secondar, don’t you think?
A lttle clarity on the OG’s; I never made any statements about what they could do and when (I let ChiaCrack do that kind of forecasting). I do think, however, that taking two of them and hoping that one turns out to be a stud is a better strategic, long-term decision than taking a LB ill-suited for ILB in the 3-4 and a complementary RB. They could both be busts, but I liken it to the James Marten/Doug Free combo. One busts, one emerges as a contributor. Hopefully, Dallas finds a new Center at some point, so the issue of trying to cover up Gurode’s deficiencies becomes a non-issue.
On the safeties, it’s about Moore, not Black. If Black amounts to anything more than a ST guy, it’s a bonus. I’ve made my feelings abundantly clear about Moore. I think he has the potential to start. He’s much more ready to play than Jairus Byrd was when he came out.
As mentioned previously, I think AOA may be stiff. He didn’t display any wiggle when he was returning kicks and, coming out of the draft, everyone was talking about his ability to do that piece well. If his KR performance is any indication, we will NEED to get two FA’s to play safety now.
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
- John Wooden (God rest his soul)
Agreed...
they must sign Free first before it becomes and issue. BUT…somewhere up the line we may be saddled with two top flight tackles demanding L/T money. A potential future issue to be sure, if it even ever comes to light at all.
I’m not sure any team has two L/T’s out there tho’. Of course I’m under the assumption that Smith can make the jump to L/T. I might wanna wait until he proves he can play R/T in the NFL first. :)
I was hoping Dallas would take USC’s safety in the draft last year, but to no avail.
I’m still wondering if there’s a safety out there as an UDFA that we’re all missing out on.
In my mind, much optimism reigns as to the Bruce Carter selection. Butch Davis thinks highly of him, and off all people, he’s seen him more than any scout. He oughtta know.
I see Carter as a force over the middle and coming thru the line on those “where’d he come from” exotic blitzes the Ryan boys are known for.
If we can send Carter on the blitz, it’ll save us from having to use corners and safeties on blitzes in a secondary already playing under duress.
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