Cowboys 2012 Draft: How Good Is Dallas At Assembling A Draft Board?
Lost amidst all the recent additions and subtractions from the Cowboys' coaching ranks was a bit of news that may prove to have the most positive impact on the Cowboys fortunes in 2012 and beyond: the fact that the Dallas Director of Player Personnel Tom Ciskowski will remain with the team (of course, we were all over it here at BTB; KD covered it in yesterday's links post). Ciskowski been with the organization since 1992 (he was the guy who scouted and recommended Larry Allen); he took over the top scouting job after Jeff Ireland left for the Miami Dolphins following the 2007 season.
We can debate at length the impact (or lack thereof) that Bill Parcells had on the Cowboys organization; one fact, however, is indisputable: he did a masterful job of cleaning up (and cleaning out) what had been a moribund scouting department. He eliminated a lot of dead weight (I'm talking to you, Larry Lacewell) and promoted smart, steady,grinders like Ireland and Ciskowski. A lot of ink (and pixels) has been spilled over the Cowboys' draft-day struggles, but few, if any, insiders blame Ciskowski and his personnel team who, by all reports, do a superb job scouting players, assigning grades, and assembling the big board.
And it's not an easy job. Ciskowski and his guys have to sift through about 450 draftable players to assemble their board. No team's board has that many guys on it; typically, a team will winnow the total down to about 120 players for a seven-round draft. Obviously, many more than 120 players will be drafted (254 were selected in the 2011 selection party) but, since each team comes up with a distinct group of 120, there will still be plenty of guys left on each team's list as the draft winds down into the seventh round. What makes guys like Ciskowski so valuable is their ability to select the right 120 players, matching them to a particular organization's schemes and philosophy.
From that 120, most teams will really grind on a smaller number of players (usually about 40) that they are particularly interested in. This interest could be a matter of talent, character or because they play a position of need. Whatever the case, teams do extra homework on these players, guys on their "short list." For the Cowboys, a key aspect of this research are the annual "Dallas Days," typically held in the beginning of April. There are two of them, usually on consecutive days. For the first, the Cowboys invite collegians from all over the nation; for the second, they invite guys with local ties (such as Big 12 players or Texas high school products).
Make the jump...
In the past several years, there has been a very strong correlation between the Cowboys' Dallas Day invitees and the guys they have chosen. In a lead-in to last year's pick-em jamboree, O.C.C. noted:
In previous years, a good indicator of what the Cowboys were going to do on draft weekend was the amount of invites per position. The Cowboys were looking for a corner and a running back in 2008 and brought in eight corners and five backs. In 2009 they went looking for linebackers and found one. In 2010, the priorities appeared to be corner, receiver and a whole shopping list worth of offensive linemen. After only inviting three linemen in the two previous year, the Cowboys suddenly wanted to talk to eight of the big guys at once. The Cowboys did end up picking a lineman with the 179th pick in Sam Young, but that was perhaps not as high as their shopping list would have indicated.
Of course, O.C.C. provided a terrific set of tables to substantiate his claim. Hit the linky above the block-quote to check them out...
With this correlation in mind before last year's draft, I made up a "little board" in which I tried to slot the Dallas Day invitees by round, to get a clearer sense of what the Dallas braintrust might do. Let's take a quick walk down draft-day memory lane, shall we? Here's the "little board":
| OFFENSE | ||||||||
| Pos | Round 1 | Round 1 (trade down) |
Round 2 | Round 3 | Round 4 | Round 5 | Round 6 | Round 7 |
| OT | Tyron Smith |
Nate Solder Anthony Castonzo Gabe Carimi* Derek Sherrod |
||||||
| OG | Danny Watkins** | Will Rackley | DeMarcus Love | |||||
| OC | Mike Pouncey |
|
Jake Kirkpatrick | |||||
| WR | Jon Baldwin | Edmund Gates | Cecil Shorts |
Andre Holmes Jimmy Young |
||||
| RB | DeMarco Murray | Bilal Powell | Stevan Ridley | Phillip Tanner | ||||
| DEFENSE | ||||||||
| Pos | Round 1 | Round 1 (trade down) |
Round 2 | Round 3 | Round 4 | Round 5 | Round 6 | Round 7 |
| DT | Kenrick Ellis | Ian Williams | ||||||
| DE | J.J. Watt | Christian Ballard | ||||||
| ILB | Kelvin Sheppard | Nate Irving | Greg Lloyd | |||||
| OLB? |
Bruce Carter Martez WIlson |
|||||||
| CB | Prince Amukamara | Aaron Williams |
Brandon Burton Johnny Patrick |
Shareece Wright | Korey Lindsey | |||
| SS | Eric Hagg | Da'Norris Searcy | ||||||
| FS | Rahim Moore |
Johnathan Nelson Colln Zych |
||||||
True to form, the Cowboys' first three picks--Tyron Smith, Bruce Carter and DeMarco Murray--were all Dallas Day invitees, as was free agent wideout (and current practice squadder) Andre Holmes. Fifth-rounder Josh Thomas was a local invitee; he was joined on the local day by promising youngsters (and preseason stars) Raymond Radway and Phillip Tanner. Smith and Murray are clearly players; Carter flashed on special teams; Tanner ran hard and fought for extra yardage every time he touched the ball. All of this suggests that Ciskowski and gang are adept at assembling a draft board filled--in every round--with guys who can play.
And I think that extends beyond the guys the Cowboys actually drafted. A look at this "little board" confirms a suspicion that I had several times this season when watching other teams' games: a lot of the Cowboys' targets sparkled during their rookie years. In particular, I was impressed by how many mid- and late-rounders, guys like Cecil Shorts and Da'Norris Searcy, got a lot of snaps and made plays in 2011. To my mind, this speaks well about the job Ciskowski and his scouts do to identify talent across the board, at least in terms of the ol' eye test.
How well? Well, I want to compile some firmer evidence, which I'll share in a series of posts over the next couple of weeks. Each will offer a deeper look at one aspect of the Cowboys' 2011 short list, with the idea that we can learn a lot about the organization's baseline talent evaluation by how well the guys they targeted most pointedly played as rookies. As judging criteria, I'll consider, among other things, PFF grades, position on depth charts, Expected Points Added numbers, games played, and total snaps.
Interested in Dallas raw scouting ability? Keep your eyes peeled for some delicious statistically inflected pre-draft goodness in the coming days...
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Comments
I think they do a pretty good job on their draft board
the only year I was upset really was 2009, do the exact opposite of whatever you did in 2009 guys, because that was awful
they gotta stop having leaks of their boards too, that is not a good look for the franchise having your draft board leaked
yeah its cool for the fans, but it just gives too much insight on how we do things in the war room
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 13, 2012 6:06 PM CST reply actions
Yeah, I agree about the leaks. It is like bluffing to win a poker hand and than waving the cards around to show what you had
Lifelong Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
My Beer Blog: http://tiltingsuds.wordpress.com/
I would love to show you the finer points to a muay thai clinch whipped knee to the face seanrude
by matt575 on Nov 22, 2011 3:09 AM EST
great idea for a series Rabble, excellent idea and I will enjoy reading this
DeMarco was obviously a great home run find for the scouting department, but the one guy I really want to see is Radway, I thought he was a lock for the 53 until he went down, Ogletree made some money this year that he would not have if Radway didnt go down like that
I agree, they do a good job on these UDFA types to late rounders who find success somewhere in the NFL
the problem I see is they rely on these UDFA’s to be a part of every position, thats a major fault I have about that theory
it works out occasionally, more here than anywhere else lately but they depend on it too much
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 13, 2012 6:09 PM CST reply actions
Radway is one
of the guys that has me really interested to see with a full camp and more time to work with Tony.
Those 4 and 5 wides that Breese had to throw to was key to all those passing records he set, but the key to that was definately getting great protection and I think an elite Offensive Line is the single most improtant priority for success and I have been saying, no, yelling it for the last several years……DeCastro is my prayer for this team.
We need corners, safties, and speed rushers, and the order of those should be based on how deep each of those positions are. If one of those positions is short, then that should be our 2nd round pick.
The Pats, New Orleans, and Green Bay are/were all top seeds because of their offense. Of coarse we need to fix the defense as well, and there is always Free Agency to get more help as well.
And lastly, give Jerry credit for allowing one of his best friends, Larry Lacewell, to be replaced when it was shown his time had passed him by.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
do you know what beats all those shiney toys on offense the Packers & Saints have?
a pass rush, a dominate DL that can control the game. defense showed up as the #1 factor in winning this weekend & even the Texans almost won with a 3rd string rookie QB bc that defense front owned the game.
i bet the Packers & Saints find all the pass rushers they can for next season lol.
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
Bruce Carter
Wrong box? Or am I missing something?
Also, good article. I guess the Boys are not afraid to invite the players they like and double secret draftboards be damned. Reminds me of Garrett attending the USC pro day and taking a personal look at Tyron Smith. That pretty much cemented the pick for me.
The Cowboys are going to make a definitive statement on their vision for the remainder of the Romo Era with their first round pick this year.
Looking forward to your upcoming posts, Rabble!
#demarcusvstheworld
Cowboys wishlist: RG3
by accidental innuendo on Jan 13, 2012 6:31 PM CST reply actions
pre-draft Bruce Carter was considered a 3rd round pick
Why many of us on this site flipped out when he was drafted.
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 13, 2012 6:37 PM CST up reply actions
for what is is worth Blings
ProDraft had him as a 2nd rounder….
not sure what other sites had him at though
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Jan 13, 2012 7:30 PM CST up reply actions
dont get me started on Bruce folks
We're here to win football games. The way to do that is to tell him and to get on him at the right times. I do that when you guys (media) don't see and watch.''
What else makes a strong leader?
"You win,'' Romo said. "You're a very good leader once you win.
"That's' what we're going to do.''
by TARHEEL PAUL on Jan 13, 2012 7:38 PM CST up reply actions
Bruce Carter Bruce Carter Bruce Carter.
jk. I enjoyed watching him as a Tarheel. Can’t wait to see him fly the Star.
We have the goal of winning Super Bowls. If you don't have that, find the door.
Jason Garrett
I know you're a fan of his...
But the “Don’t get me started” is that a comment based on his draft position or injury status?
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
"Meanwhile, like a bitter wine, Philadelphia’s jealousy fermented in the dark cellars of pride and resentment. With no playoff hopes of their own, Eagles fans turned towards hating the Cowboys." Steve Sabol, NFL films
This was my fault. I out-thought myself re: Carter
who I initially had in the second round (dropping one round from his first round grade due to his injury).
Actually, the Cowboys took him right where I first thought they might…
I am going to really put myself out there
if Bruce Carter is a bust in 2012 and isn’t a good player, I will do something absurd like wear a I LOVE BARBIE CARPENTER shirt or sky dive or something
this kid will be a player, I guarantee it
mark it down Rabble, mark it down SON
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 13, 2012 9:52 PM CST up reply actions
If he is then I'm going to be very happy
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 13, 2012 10:04 PM CST up reply actions
I believe in him
I am just putting it all on the line that he is going to be a good player
if I am wrong, I am wrong
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 13, 2012 10:23 PM CST up reply actions
I believe in him
I am just putting it all on the line that he is going to be a good player
if I am wrong, I am wrong
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 13, 2012 10:24 PM CST up reply actions
Agree...only
I believe Bruce Carter will be a lot better than just good. The much needed improvement on pass coverage up the middle is where he will help a-plenty.
Speed kills, and he’s got it. The next couple of years should validate the #2 pk.
I can’t wait. jmo
Speed and Height
are the most important traits that must be used. It was Deions 4.2 speed that made him the most feared DB the game has ever seen.
It was Bob Hayes 10.1 one hundred meters speed that made him the most feared receiver that the game has ever seen.
It is height that is making all those basketball Tightends become feared for thier matchup problems, and what made Too Tall Jones and Harold Carmichael special.
IMHO.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
i love the power forwards playing football
that mix of posting up & being able to use your body is becoming priceless at TE. i hope Dallas can find a Gronkowski, J.Graham, Etc & a 3rd down back like Sproles.
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
I agree
Him being a Workout warrior, a former team capt at N Car, not being suspended like everyone else on his Defense, runs like a what a 4.4, 40, special team stud….excuse me im drooling a little bit. I dont see him failing
"This team is going to win a Super Bowl at some point. It's going to be exciting when that time comes. And when we look back, we'll know who was on what side of the fence during those tough moments." - Tony Romo
I dont see him failing
Best not to challenge the universe like that.
Anyway, my knock on Carter is that his instincts seem limited, which seems troublesome for a 3-4 ILB. But still, he might’ve been okay because of his ridiculous reaction speed…but then he blew out his knee.
He’s looked fine on ST, which has allayed my injury fears somewhat, but you just can’t teach instincts, ya know?
#demarcusvstheworld
Cowboys wishlist: RG3
by accidental innuendo on Jan 14, 2012 7:38 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I think instincts
are partly feeling like you know the assignments like the back of your hand, and that Carter could be speical if he learns the position and does the film work needed to improve your recognition ability.
To me instincts are mostly the ability to recognize what is happening very quickly and that can be taught and learned, only a small part of “instincts” are natural born. Unlike speed and height that can’t be taught or learned.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
I think theres a reason for so many UDFA's
I think before they were there to take the brunt of all the overpriced talent we paid for. Now things are starting to even out where it should be.
The Garrett Guillotine demands more blood!
by Blue Eyed Devil on Sep 5, 2011 3:30 PM PDT
If you're going to eat poison, you might as well lick the plate.
by Final Frame on Jan 13, 2012 11:06 PM CST up reply actions
the more draft picks dont work out the more UDFA's you have at that position.
its worked out for Dallas hitting on a few players but if they count on UDFAs to develope to make a run at a super bowl then its never going to happen.
i like to see undrafted RBs, FB, WRs but not 3/4 your offensive fire power
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
O line
one thing I have gotten an impression over the last few years is that the boys tend to under rate O linemen. By as much as a round. Which tends to make the boys miss out on O linemen.
Off subject
but it looks like Ol Dave Campo landed on his feet. He’s going to be the DC for the Kansas Jayhawks. Good for him.
We're here to win football games. The way to do that is to tell him and to get on him at the right times. I do that when you guys (media) don't see and watch.''
What else makes a strong leader?
"You win,'' Romo said. "You're a very good leader once you win.
"That's' what we're going to do.''
Good for him.
He was a great guy, but taught the wrong techniques to corners and safties IMHO. Somebody is teaching Carlos Rodgers the right way to play corner. I want that guy as our secondary coach!
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
what happened to the secondary coach of the Dolphins?
the Dolphins had one of the best secondarys considering there record. i dont remember any of those DBs being 1st round talent but i know they play well together which is a sign of good coaching
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
I dont know
I think they do underrate o linemen but maybe its not that maybe its more less they felt they were looking for a diffrent type of player that most teams wouldn’t be and find out during the draft that they missed out with the assumption others aren’t in the same market.
by Sado44 on Jan 13, 2012 7:39 PM CST via mobile reply actions
I have a suggestion on improving the Dallas board.
Have Chia build it for them.
Formerly Pineywoods - different name, same cockeyed view of the world.
Jason Garrett - Lord of Order
Rob Ryan - Lord of Chaos
lol
I think I could improve some things they do for sure
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 13, 2012 8:39 PM CST up reply actions
He certinally puts a lot of time and effort into scouting the internet for reports.
But he doesn’t have the resources and staff to know near what the Boys do.
Now if he was in the same position, that would be interesting to see how much they agree/disagree on. Same with other major draft lovers, it would be interesting to see how boards would stack up if we all had the same info.
I'm glad you wrote this post
Hard to really know much about what happens in the war room as they build the board unless you look back at the one that was leaked and assume that it was legit. If so, you can see how they saw that group of players and how they panned out.
On the other hand, how far removed are we from 2009’s draft (and I use that term VERY loosely) where they had to be drunk and throwing darts at names on a list of players tacked to the wall? Not that far. That was Tom Ciskowski’s board that t hey were picking from.
In the end, I’m not sure you can evaluate this kind of thing without looking closely at players they passed over at the positions they drafted (i.e. Felix over Mendenhall, etc.) but who were drafted by other teams shortly thereafter.
Even then, if you think you’ve got some bearing on how well they rate players by position, the unsolvable variable is draft strategy. Dallas’ has never really had a draft strategy in the post-Tuna era because Jerry’s been almost whimsical in the way he deals with draft picks.
Still, I’d love to see you delve into this more deeply with a look at the players we selected versus those we passed over. It may be painful, but it also might be revealing.
Thought provoking and timely. Well done.
"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"
That's a very good idea
Perhaps even rate us against ± 3 teams around us each year.
We have the goal of winning Super Bowls. If you don't have that, find the door.
Jason Garrett
Not just JJ, musical coaches hurts to.
The HC has 1/3rd input into who gets drafted. Each coach has a different idea of what they want. So we were constantly spinning and going off in other directions.
It Does Beg the Question:
How the heck does Dallas end up so short of talent on the year to year 53 roster? I guess you only have to make a Roy Williams give away draft pics mistake here – and an Anthony Spencer move up mistake over there – and a major blunder in the best draft class ever for running backs (Felix and Tashard) . . . and then you throw in a 2009 debacle . . . what is the common theme here? The GM acting impulsively?
I think it has more to do
with draft position. The teams that pick in the top 16 are good to look much better than those that pick in the bottom 16 and since the strategy is a “Concensus” as well as the board itself, it is often just the people in the war room not doing a good job on selling their wishlist to change the board.
It was Garrett that wanted Felix over Mendenhall, not Jerry. Jerry gets the blame because he is where the buck stops, but he gets too much blame for allowing people to “sell” their ideas. He allows his coaches to get the players they want if they can do a good enough job on selling why they should get them, and I like that in Jerry.
If there is anything wrong with the GM’s approach, it can be either in not listening to those around him, which can be a problem if you just let a stong willed GM run things his way, like a lot of Jerry haters want by hiring someone to just “run things”, or it can be because he doesnt hire the right people that wind up in the war room and sometimes that is because a lot of the great ones are not available to get away from their current position.
Parcells had that same ability to “sell” his picks and he won some of those battles by selling guys like Peterman, and Carpenter, but lost some in not being able to “upsell” his guy Spears to be picked at 11 instead of the concensus pick of Ware at that spot….sure glad Parcells lost that battle.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
Where Parcells
shined was in his management skills, but his talent evaluating stunk! Glad he talked Jerry into replacing Lacewell and some of the scouts and promoted the right guys.
Where does the fact that we had 13 Probowlers in 2009 fit in all this.
Where the GM, (Jerry), deserves the most blame is not in the drafts where it is mostly a consensus, but in where he trys to do all the selling to get consusus on the Trades he makes with free agents and there is still the fact that even his “worst” picks in that area, Roy Williams and Joey Gallaway, were considered by the rest of the league as exceptional players, and not just guys that Jerry thought were good.
So, keep Jerry away from Wide Receivers, and we have more first round picks. I think Jerry will not able to “sell” any future trades for first round picks for a long time if ever again because Steven Jones will win that battle for sure.
If I am not mistaken, that 2009 draft only landed us with Butler and McGee, but we did also get Miles Austin that year, so it was bad because of not having a first or second round pick….
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
Roy Williams was not considered an exceptional player by anyone other than Jerry Jones and Roy Williams.
And the Longhorns Alumni Association, Blogging the Boys Division.
Rumor has it the Lions were going to release him at season’s end. Go to the Lions’ SBN page and look up their reaction to the Roy Williams trade. Most of them pissed themselves laughing at the haul they scored. None of them lamented the trade.
Miles had been on the team for several years prior to 2009, just never started.
Lifelong Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
My Beer Blog: http://tiltingsuds.wordpress.com/
I would love to show you the finer points to a muay thai clinch whipped knee to the face seanrude
by matt575 on Nov 22, 2011 3:09 AM EST
I think if you check
all teams blogs make out like they stole the farm on all trades. I followed Roy Williams from his days at UT and he was not considered a flop. Four other teams were bidding on Williams.
Jerry was debating between Roy, Anquan Boldin and Ocho Cinco and I was pulling for us getting Roy. There is sure a lot of revisionist history going on today.
“Free agents in 2009RFA: Restricted free-agent, UFA: Unrestricted free-agent, ERFA: Exclusive rights free agent
Position Player Free agency
tag Date signed 2009 team
OG/OL Joe Berger UFA February 27, 2009 Miami Dolphins19
WR Miles Austin RFA April 23, 2009 Dallas Cowboys17 QB Brooks Bollinger UFA Florida Tuskers
DE Stephen Bowen RFA April 6, 2009 Dallas Cowboys16
LB Kevin Burnett UFA March 10, 2009 San Diego Chargers11
DE Chris Canty UFA March 1, 2009 New York Giants8
RB Alonzo Coleman ERFA April 23, 2009 Dallas Cowboys17
OT Marc Colombo UFA December 25, 2008 Dallas Cowboys20
TE Tony Curtis UFA April 24, 2009 Kansas City Chiefs21
SS Keith Davis UFA May 21, 2009 Oakland Raiders22
TE Rodney Hannah ERFA April 23, 2009 Dallas Cowboys17
WR Sam Hurd RFA April 20, 2009 Dallas Cowboys14
QB Brad Johnson Released February 26, 2009 TBD4
DL Tank Johnson UFA April 7, 2009 Cincinnati Bengals23
CB Adam Jones Released February 9, 2009 TBD3
P Sam Paulescu UFA
LB Carlos Polk UFA
OG Cory Procter RFA April 4, 2009 Dallas Cowboys15
LB Zach Thomas UFA April 13, 2009 Kansas City Chiefs24 "
Now what was that about Miles being on the team for several years?
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
It may be that I am
mis-reading Miles Austin Signing. It may be that we got him before 2009 and we just re-signed him in 2009. If that is the case, then I stand corrected.
But if you check Roy’s stats, he was not a one year wonder as most Roy haters will try to spin….In his 5 years in Detroit he averaged 64.7 yards per game. That works out to over a 1000 yards per 16 game seasons.
The only year he played all 16 games he was 2nd in the NFL in yards, and in all his years as a starter including Dallas he averaged 7 TD’s and the Miles Austin breakout year, Roy was 2nd on our team in TD’s.
Well enough of defending Roy, he did not live up to the expectations but he was not as bad as some would have us believe either and he certianlly was not highly sought afer.
I remember over at the mothership, how one guy was badmouthing Roy and saying how he was against the trade all along, and I went back into his history and pulled up a comment he made right after the trade saying how he was so happy and all for it, and how Roy would light up the NFL now that he was on a good team.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
Oops, was
sought after.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
And the more I think about it,
I think it was a “RE” signing, instead of just a signing, but either way Jerry deservers the credit as the GM.
But dont get me wrong, on both the Galloway and Williams signing, Jerry over-paid, no doubt, it is just that very few at the time said they were bad deals, if any one here said they were horrible trades, then my hats off to you.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
to be clear
Austin was a Cowboy in 2009….he got the 1&3 tender in 2009 iirc, and was almost signed by the Jets….
Austin was Signed as a UDFA out of Monmouth University in 2006 I do believe….
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Jan 15, 2012 12:52 PM CST up reply actions
Yep, I corrected myself
because I realized that 2009 wasnt that long ago.
When your 68 years old, time really flies.
Or as Ben from Short Circut said…“Time is fun when your having flies.”
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
Roy may not have been considered a flop (although that is debatable) but he was not considered exceptional.
He had one big year, and was otherwise pedestrian (my position) or injury prone and unable to stay on the field (which seems to be your position, correct me if I have that wrong) but no one thought he was a world beater other than Roy, Jerry and the Longhorn Alumni Association.
Detroit was going to release him until Jerry came along with bag of gold for them. Of course they jumped at that.
I disagree with your assessment of the reaction of the boards. For example, and using the Roy Williams trade again, I do not think this board was ecstatic. There was cautious optimism, at best, which was deflated by Raf’s breakdown of Roy’s career up to that point, which made it clear that he was not the world beater Roy and Jerry thought he was. You can check those stats here: http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/35/roy-williams
Taht 1300 yard season is clearly an anomaly, a career year.
It quickly became clear that Roy was not going to work out in Dallas. He was not quick, not explosive, had manos de piedra, did not know where he had to be on the field, and whenever he goofed up, that dumbass grin did not exactly endear him to the fanbase. I’d point all of this out and was repeatedly told “yeah, but he BLOCKS LIKE A BADASS” which gave me a solid 18 months of material.
Lifelong Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
My Beer Blog: http://tiltingsuds.wordpress.com/
I would love to show you the finer points to a muay thai clinch whipped knee to the face seanrude
by matt575 on Nov 22, 2011 3:09 AM EST
He averaged
64.7 yards per game for 5 years as a starter. That is equivalent to a 1000 yard year every year for his 5 years with the Lions.
To me that is not pedestrian, (my position), and facts are better than positions. You cant argue with 64.7 yard average per game.
Again not saying he was great, but certianly not just average.
Did Jerry overpay him? Yes, but isnt hindsight wonderful?
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
I will give you that he was not exceptional, and
that he had more than his share of injuries, but he was better than just pedestrian, but again did not live up to the expectations, no doubt about that.
I think that my “defense” of any “Cowboy” that gets “Piled” on and unjustly critized for being worse than reality, is why I am taking this position any time Roys name comes up.
Again, my position is he was above average, but was way over paid for being just above average, while others positions are usually just “words” and no stats to back up their claims of “pedestrian” or worse yet, “He Sucks”…..my favorite “fact” from the other side.
Argue against 64.7 yards per game and averaging 7 TD’s per season as a starter….again, as a starter……
Anyone that calls those numbers average or pedestrian is just not being fair and is just wanting to make Roy and/or Jerry look worse than what reality shows….
I understand peoples “hate” on Roy because he failed to live up to the hype that Jerry boasted, but fair is fair, and he was not just average, and he did not “force” Jerry to overpay for him. In some ways it was a shame that other teams were interested and Jerry felt he was not going to loose the guy he wanted.
Did he learn his lesson? I think so because he did not overpay for Nnamdi, did he?
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
Take out that Career YEar, which was clearly an anomaly, something that he never came close to repeating, and he was pedestrian
And that career year was an anomaly at the time the trade was made. I saw that at the time. I hoped he’d find the magic again, but it was hope not an expectation
Jerry overpaid him, that is for sure, but it wasn’t all hindsight. There were plenty of people on this board and in the media (print, TV, radio, and internet) who said “WTF is Jerry Thinking!?!?” at the time the trade was made, and predicted that Roy would be nothing more than average.
Lifelong Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
My Beer Blog: http://tiltingsuds.wordpress.com/
I would love to show you the finer points to a muay thai clinch whipped knee to the face seanrude
by matt575 on Nov 22, 2011 3:09 AM EST
But you cant
take out that “career Year”. It is what it is and you cant argue with 64.7 yard average.
And are you saying that 7 TD’s per year as a starter is also “just average?”
Again, I give you he wasnt exceptional, and that Jerry blew it, but I recall many people saying that there was a reason that Roy was picked 7th in the draft, and that he was a reallly good receiver that got hurt every year but one.
Now what is fair would be to say any and all of the following:
1. He was always hurt.
2. He ran very undisiplined routes.
3. He was grossly over-paid.
4. He struggled to learn the “option” routes in the Garrett offense.
But his numbers dont lie and he was highly sought after by 4 teams based upon my memory of what was happening at the time and thus to say he was pedestrian, is not being fair.
But, I think neither of us will convince the other of what is real because I was one of the guys that thought he had potential and was in Jerry’s corner at the time of the trade, and therefore it is only natural that I see the other side of the coin, that alot of people refuse to let their minds even venture into.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
Roy williams TD's as a starter:
Roy starter years:
2004 8 TD’s
2005 8 TD’s
2006 7 TD’s
2007 5 TD’s
2009 7 TD’s
2010 5 TD’s
====
40 TD’s
40 / 6 = 6.67
HE was not a full time starter for the Bears this past year or in 2008.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
I am saying take out the career year because it was clearly an anomaly and it therefore skews his stats. Throw out his worst year too just to be fair, and what do you have?
You have a guy you might look to sign in free agency if he came at a reasonable price. You do not have a guy that you trade anything for. You do not have a guy that keeps Miles Austin on the bench until he gets hurt and you have no choice but to play Miles.
Lifelong Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
My Beer Blog: http://tiltingsuds.wordpress.com/
I would love to show you the finer points to a muay thai clinch whipped knee to the face seanrude
by matt575 on Nov 22, 2011 3:09 AM EST
In any event, he is gone from Dallas. and likely gone from the NFL within a year or two
Lifelong Cowboys Fan from the Swamps of Jersey
My Beer Blog: http://tiltingsuds.wordpress.com/
I would love to show you the finer points to a muay thai clinch whipped knee to the face seanrude
by matt575 on Nov 22, 2011 3:09 AM EST
seeing that list made me realize how much i missed Canty, Bowen & even Burnett
the ILBs took a huge hit when they didn’t resign Burnett but Canty & Bowen should’ve been resigned
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
this isn't true
It was Garrett that wanted Felix over Mendenhall, not Jerry.
…
Jerry went to an Arkansas game to watch Felix Jones play lol. Garrett & Jerry both voted for Felix & Wade voted for Chris Johnson.
i think i remember Hard Knocks showed something to with that Felix pick. they also exposed the Cowboys draft board iirc
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
Better question.
How much to they stick to their board ?
If they adhere to their board then their board needs help. Two decent drafts don’t absolve 5 bad ones. 09 being the worst draft in Nfl history coupled with all the picks traded for Spencer , one has to wonder what is the plan. This isn’t fantasy football.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
Agree Mensa
Maybe they don’t have the dicipline to stick to their board and maybe there is no plan long term afterall; at least not a plan worthy of the name; the GM sees Dez and has an orgasm or gets the idea that Martellus Bennett is the next Hall of Fame TE; remember the stories that Jerry wanted to move up about 12 to 15 spots to make sure the Cowboys got that once in a generation TE from Aggieland?
Bennett
might have been a different guy if he didnt have Witten in front of him. Half the teams in the league were wanting to trade nice packages for Bennett when they saw that same “pontential” that the scouts and Jerry saw, so it isnt as bad as it seems with that Bennett pick IMHO.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
just being honest but once those teams found out Bennett cant catch theres been no offers.
Dallas should’ve known from the 1st training camp the dude was a clown & didn’t take direction very well. i think Hard Knocks hit the nail on the head who MartyB really was. you can tell he doesn’t put in the work like Witten does during the season & especially offseason.
on top of it all Bennetts hands just arent very good & i’m sure there not just giving Witten more options bc he’s less athletic or slower then Bennett. if Bennett could catch he would look like Gronkowski in NE & theres nothing Witten could do to hold that back lol. the only thing Bennett does well is block & it doesn’t make your 2 TE sets very effective if 1 of the TEs cant catch.
Garrett needs to find a 6’5+ TE 250lbs+ that can catch & play like a power forward in the redzone/endzone
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
Funny thing on this blog......
99% of the posters on this blog slam Kiper , yet when Kiper said Carter was a first round talent. It was Kiper who was always referenced. Entertaining for sure. LOL
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
I reference Mayock when I talk about Carter
I really dont remember Kiper saying much about Carter, meanwhile Mayock loved it
Kiper also said Spencer was going to be a “rookie of the year” type talent and Dallas got themselves a steal
I actually like Kiper, but since then I have backed off the Kiper bandwagon
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 13, 2012 9:41 PM CST up reply actions
Kiper is a guy that's stuck around too long
in the 1980s he was the best draftnick there was. But the quality of draft analysis has increased over the years and left Mel in the dust.
He’s not bad, he’s just overhyped on a reputation he has that was once deserved.
Basically it’s a microcosm of why I can’t watch ESPN. It’s sports for old people stuck in the 1980s.
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 13, 2012 10:06 PM CST up reply actions
All I'm saying
Is that if you need the soundtrack for your football highlights to be a guy making sound effects like he’s out of a Police Acedemy movie (Chris Berman) then you’re old. ;-)
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 14, 2012 10:40 AM CST up reply actions
I like Mayock
But Wes is currently my guy.
Let me be the scouting director AND the GM
by SportsDrunk on Jan 13, 2012 10:53 PM CST up reply actions
c'mon guys you just need to see kiper's hairdo to know he doesn't know a thing
haham hair references aside i have always thought kiper doesn’t have a clue, he’s not a scout, he just has contacts
I like McShay better when it comes to the scouting and stuffb
because Kiper used to work for agents and would hype guys because he was most likely getting paid
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 13, 2012 10:24 PM CST up reply actions
I like McShay and
Mayock also.
If the play works, never run it again. If it fails, keep running it.
First and goal at the one. Run it three times in a row, and then kick a field goal. Sound familiar?
i'm surprised ESPN hasn't went after Mayock to pair with McShay.
the NFL Network is good job but ESPN pays the big bucks (just ask Shefty).
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
+1
i dont even know why ESPN still has Kiper around lol. the whistle blower on Newtons dad talked about how Kiper would call agents while knowing the client was in the office & set up a scripted conversation to help recruit.
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
LOL, I wondered if anyone would point that out.
And it depends on how many TFL they have? /grin
Lol. I hadn’t seen that, but it’s fixed now.
by One.Cool.Customer on Jan 14, 2012 5:03 AM CST up reply actions
Nice post but..
I think an OLineman might have helped Romo stay on his feet instead of being sacked six times against the Giants. Carter may be a player but when he got healthy he couldn’t get on the field and this was despite two guys playing who were pathetic.
Plus where are the day two players or does the scouting department and Jerry high five after day one, year after year, and take the next day off?
Carter's lack of ...
onfield presence late in the season I believe has more to do with the injury he had and lack of training camp than anything else.
I fully expect Rob Ryan to give him a solid off-season program to make him part of the defense every down. Brooking and James are going bye-bye.
While I would like some help for the secondary in the draft I want a bookend pass rusher to complement DWare and scare the bajeebers out of Eli, Vick etc. Not fixing that would be amazing cluelessness in not seeing a glaring weakness that prevented the D from getting off the field when they needed to against the Jets, Lions, Pats, Cards and Giants.
5 Ws would have given them a 13-3 record … even 2 of those Ws make them 10-6 and make the Giants irrelevant and would have sent Coughlin packing.
stopping Eli & Vick will be the task next season
its the chicken & the egg therory. do you fix the pass rush (DL/OLB) or is the secondary. one thing is for sure you have to fix one before working on the other or you look like a dog chasing his tail.
the way football has always been played is building OL-DL-QB in any order you want but those 3 have to be top 10 or even top 5 to have a chance in the playoffs/super bowls. the Packers lost that game once they found out the Giants DL, Eli & the trio of WRs were coming to town. no one was worried about David Diehl, B.Jacobs, Ballard or anyone in that Giants secondary.
Dominate up front & it gives you a really good chance to win any game.
Harbough has A.Smith playing a lot better & that 49ers defense is no joke from the front to the back. i think its going to be a good game & the defense that forces the QB into the most mistakes will win the game. the Giants are hot right not but the 49ers hit hard & dont make many mistakes
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
I think having more interior pass rushers will help the most.
A lot of times, Spencer and Ware apply pressure, but Eli just steps up into a clean pocket and gets the pass off.
or throws up a Prayer
because his WR is wide open……
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Jan 14, 2012 8:38 PM CST up reply actions
I think the Cowboys do a great job creating their draft board
Ciskowski is a great evaluator of talent and we’re lucky to have him.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jan 14, 2012 4:53 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
well a few other organizations in need of a great talent evaluator didn't pick him so we will see how 'lucky" we are this draft.
last year we hit on 3 contributors from the draft (i’m not counting Carter the sample was to small) & if this next draft yields 4 contributors like last season then we will know a lot more about great Ciskowski is.
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
Mr. Mulligan's Comments Are Spot On.....PLUS THESE OBSERVATIONS!!!!!
I’ve been harping on the same thing for 3 years. Jerrah can save millions in FA salary on the Defense by simply signing 1 key FA…..Miami’s NT named Paul Soliai or drafting a stud NT (i.e. D. Poe) in the DRAFT (which is always a crap-shoot in my opinion)!!!!!
By having a big-boy NT that can push the pocket and simply moving RAT to DE, we’d have 3 above-average elite pass rushers (Ware, RAT, Spencer) and 1 elite NT to push the pocket and plug-up the middle runs that have plaqued us for years!!!! We’ve ALL seen for the past 3 years how elite QBs like Eli, Brees, Rogers, Vick, Brady, Peyton, etc. etc. just simply step up into the pocket to avoid Ware or Spencer’s outside speed rush. If we had a stud NT to push the pocket, the QB would be stepping up into one of two DE’s or NT for an easy sack OR they’d be sacked or stripped of the football by Ware or Spencer.
That would be a god-send for our average secondary and two inside LBers who’d be running around trying to man-up on elite WRs and TEs. The opposing Team’s OC would have to ensure the ball comes out real quick which would make interceptions by Sean Lee or Bruce Carter or our secondary MORE LIKELY than years past. We’ve all seen how PICKS happen when Rob Ryan’s defense can pre-diagnose the probable offensive play call!!!!
Yes, we still need another CB to replace Newman but Janoris Jenkins or Dre Kilpatrick or other draftable CB should be available in the 1st and 2nd RDs. If not, our stashed CB Mario Butler (6’1" 195lbs) may be ready to assume a starting or nickel role after one year on the practice squad and a full off-season with our elite Strength Coach.
And, yes, we still need an elite OG to replace Kosier. Therefore, if we don’t have the cap money to sign both FA Paul Soliai and FA Carl Nicks or similar FA’s, either sign Paul Soliai and draft OG DeCosta or sign OG Carl Nicks and draft NT D. Poe. Looking at these two options, signing Paul Soliai and drafting OG DeCosta appears to be the better choice!!!
And, then draft another CB in the 2nd RD to compete with Mario Butler . In the 3rd RD, we’d draft RB Terrance Ganaway (RG3’s sidekick at Baylor Univ) who’s 6’1" and weighs 241lbs of stud-muscle (plus he ran for 1,541 yds and 21TDs this year). Ganaway would be a poor-man’s Brandon Jacobs but with MUCH MORE speed. Demarco and Ganaway would be our Ahmed Bradshaw & B. Jacobs for years to come!!!! In 4-6 RDs, we’d draft another FB (to backup Fiametta), another TE with speed and hands, and any other BPA.
Last but NOT least, Jerrah should try his damnest to pry away and sign QB MATT FLYNN from Green Bay. This kid is the real deal and we’d SAVE years and years of trying to find another QB to replace Romo someday due to always drafting late in the FIRST ROUND!!!!

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