Cowboys exploring options of switch to 4-3
Tonight on the press conference it was mentioned by Garrett that the Cowboys are reviewing the possibility of a switch. Will connect to press conference when it becomes available.
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Hope not...
We just don’t have the personell for that. I mean yeah it could work, but there is a reason the best defenses in the league are 3-4s it allows you to use quicker pass rushers. We just suck at drafting them.
by stegosaurus! on Jan 19, 2012 7:35 PM CST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Yeah I don't know how to feel about this
There are definite pro’s and con’s on both sides. But it does open some interesting possibilities to the draft… and then there is the thought of Mario Williams…
by TheCowboyWay on Jan 19, 2012 7:44 PM CST up reply actions
Very true
But there are exceptions. Look at the giants, if they had not been hit by the injury plague this year would they be better then they are now?
The Garrett Guillotine demands more blood!
by Blue Eyed Devil on Sep 5, 2011 3:30 PM PDT
If you're going to eat poison, you might as well lick the plate.
Yeah but look at their talent and then ours... they have tuck jpp and umeniora we have ware... big diff
by stegosaurus! on Jan 19, 2012 7:58 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
A good FA acquisition away from that kind of talent
Ware Rat Williams… I’d take that line.
Still wonder about the rest of the personnel and where they would fit, but that would be an awesome line.
by TheCowboyWay on Jan 19, 2012 8:09 PM CST up reply actions
Still have to figure out
Where Geathers and Calloway stand. Spears isn’t to bad but he could possibly do better in a 4-3.
The Garrett Guillotine demands more blood!
by Blue Eyed Devil on Sep 5, 2011 3:30 PM PDT
If you're going to eat poison, you might as well lick the plate.
Be good for rotation at least
the more i think about it, the more I feel that we have the personnel to make a switch, less a couple of signings either FA or rookie (though the same could be said for our current alignment too).
FA, Lee, Carter
Ware , Rat/Spears, Liss/Hatch, Spencer or FA
The secondary needs upgrades with either alignment. But the thought is still intriguing.
by TheCowboyWay on Jan 19, 2012 8:27 PM CST up reply actions
Don't forget Orie Lemon and Albright
For a time it was either McCray or Church that we would use as a LB during the season. We need a minimum of 2 pieces to the secondary (one safety, one CB), I ’d love to give Mario Butler a shot to make the roster. Plus theres no Brent in your lineup.
The Garrett Guillotine demands more blood!
by Blue Eyed Devil on Sep 5, 2011 3:30 PM PDT
If you're going to eat poison, you might as well lick the plate.
the giants have also not been a consistent year over year elite D
they caught fire towards the end of 2007 through 2008. They sucked in 2009 and 2010, and sucked much of this year too. Now they’re great again. I don’t see why we want to model our D after these guys.
They are nowhere near the caliber of the Steelers or Ravens.
I personally think we just need a talent upgrade. One good pass rushing DE and improvement by Carter would do wonders for this team.
I’ve said it a few times this year already – the Steelers and Ravens get 4-6 sacks from their ILBs. We got zero this year, and I’m not sure we rushed them more than a handful of times the whole season.
I don’t see why we want to model our D after these guys.
I don’t see why Dalas would want to do that either. I mean other than all of the postseason success the Giants have had with that defense
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by matt575 on Nov 22, 2011 3:09 AM EST
Maybe, maybe not...
Right now though I would say we have a pretty good personnel group for it though.
RDE: Ware
NT: Ratliff
DT: Hatcher (or someone like Brockers if we draft him)
LDE: Free agent or draftee
LOLB: Bruce Carter
MLB: Sean Lee
ROLB: Butler (a guy that can rush the passer playing in a LB role like Von Miller does in Denver I think is good)
That is your front seven and the pretty thing about it is that Ware and Butler could be interchangeable in a way that they could play the left side or right side and still have that versatility to change up where people are and mess with protection schemes.
"I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle, victorious." –Vince Lombardi
by ProBowlFactory on Jan 19, 2012 9:09 PM CST up reply actions
Link not working?
The Garrett Guillotine demands more blood!
by Blue Eyed Devil on Sep 5, 2011 3:30 PM PDT
If you're going to eat poison, you might as well lick the plate.
The press conference isn't posted up yet
Saw this on the news, that’s why I said as soon as it gets posted I will link… if someone else finds the link first feel free to post.
by TheCowboyWay on Jan 19, 2012 7:42 PM CST up reply actions
I did find this though
The Garrett Guillotine demands more blood!
by Blue Eyed Devil on Sep 5, 2011 3:30 PM PDT
If you're going to eat poison, you might as well lick the plate.
good read
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 19, 2012 7:55 PM CST up reply actions
IMO...
I think it’s because we didn’t start it correctly nor did we solidify the basic positions. I’ve been harping about a true NT since it started. I can’t remember having one start that was 320 or above.
God 1st, Family Always & Dallas Cowboys 4 Life!!!!!
When we started
we had Fergy, a 360lb monster. Not the quickest guy, but there was no moving him from his spot. The problem was that he was getting older and he couldn’t stay healthy. His knees (shockingly) couldn’t hold up.
When he got injured, Rat stepped in and all of a sudden, instead of an immovable object, we had penetration from the NT position…Cowboys liked it so much that they haven’t looked back (and shipped Fergy to Miami).
by TheCowboyWay on Jan 23, 2012 10:01 PM CST up reply actions
Jay was 310 max...
From what I remember and what I researched from the time he was with Dallas he was 303 to 310. I don’t remember him ever being that big.
God 1st, Family Always & Dallas Cowboys 4 Life!!!!!
And I could be wrong
as I am just going by memory.
by TheCowboyWay on Jan 23, 2012 10:56 PM CST up reply actions
lol
and from your post below it looks like I was ;)
by TheCowboyWay on Jan 23, 2012 11:02 PM CST up reply actions
TBH
it seems that most people assume that a blob in the middle also means that the blob can collapse the pocket in pass rush too.
Unfortunately Vince Wilforks don’t grow on trees, and more often than not a player usually provides much more of one than the other.
Which is best? Well it really depends on the rest of your personnel. Small, fast LB core built to cover? Blob is probably best. Big, strong LB core built to hold the line of attack? Penetrator is probably your best bet.
IMO I would like to get Rat some dynamic help on the line and see how he does first before we go back to the other extreme. And as this post suggests, having a versatile scheme that is reactionary personnel wise to what the opposing offense is doing would be a big help as well.
by TheCowboyWay on Jan 23, 2012 10:13 PM CST up reply actions
Not I...
(link for Jay Ferguson I’ve got http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/rosters.nsf/Annual/2005-dal & http://www.nfl.com/player/jasonferguson/2500613/profile)
I know Wilfork’s don’t grow on trees but I don’t think we’ve seriously looked for one since the start of the 3-4 defense (track to acquisitions). To most people NT is the unflashy and somehow not as important position on the defense so people assume it’s not a need. Jay Ratliff made some flashes there so people thought it was good. He used to penetrate the pocket sure but was he ever able to collapse it or over man a double team?
None of our ILBs weigh more than 246 lbs which is the same size as most 4-3 LBs these days so I think it’d work out better with a massive NT. I don’t think 240’s is a good match-up against o-linemen on the line with a 287lb NT.
We started the 3-4 with L. Glover who was a 4-3 DT, then went to Jay Ferg (310 lbs) to Jay Ratliff (303 lbs was his highest). Maybe we should just give NT more attention in the acquisition process… Dontari Poe is who I’d like to see drafted but I won’t get my hopes up. I’ll settle for Paul Soliai if not then Antonio Garay & draft Alameda Ta’amu. Keep Josh Brent and let the competition in training camp commence.
God 1st, Family Always & Dallas Cowboys 4 Life!!!!!
Wasn't necessarily disagreeing
Just pointing out that we should not pigeon hole ourselves into one or the other. Poe, Brent whoever… rotate with the scheme to counter the offense.
Rat has a good role to play I think, but I don’t believe it should be everydown any more. Nor should Poe et al be everydown. Different packages for different situations.
by TheCowboyWay on Jan 23, 2012 11:02 PM CST up reply actions
I hear ya...
I’d like to see us rotate the packages/looks as well. I’m thinking more like the massive NT on downs 1 & 2 then something different but appropriate on 3rd.
I don’t think Rat should be everydown or starting at NT. I’d agree with any down at DE but there are but only so many options for a replacement at NT and I just wish I could point out to the GM or whoever is calling the shots that we should not take this lightly (as we’ve done in the past IMO). I was excited about the 3-4 when we switched because of the possibilities but when we didn’t get the NT it all felt wrong somewhat.
God 1st, Family Always & Dallas Cowboys 4 Life!!!!!
Callaway has good size too
and they just signed him to a 3 year extension, which to me says that there is something that they LOVE about this kid if they signed him to a 3 year extension off the practice squad without playing a snap of football in his pro career…
"I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle, victorious." –Vince Lombardi
by ProBowlFactory on Jan 29, 2012 8:56 AM CST up reply actions
I wouldn't read to much into that
Others that got a 3 year deal:
Barry Church, Danny McCray, and Alex Albright……
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Jan 30, 2012 8:40 PM CST up reply actions
I cant find anything confirming this or mentioning this
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 19, 2012 7:53 PM CST reply actions
I saw it on TXA21 when they were covering the conference.
by TheCowboyWay on Jan 19, 2012 7:54 PM CST up reply actions
I wasnt doubting you
just havent heard anything yet on the net
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 19, 2012 7:55 PM CST up reply actions
yeah I couldn't find anything to link too
hopefully they will have the conference up on DC.com in the morning
by TheCowboyWay on Jan 19, 2012 8:01 PM CST up reply actions
I would love to here what they say
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 19, 2012 8:03 PM CST up reply actions
Instead of making the players fit a scheme, build a scheme that fits the players… Specifically thinking of Spencer… an intriguing thought at least
Goal line defense all the time?
The Garrett Guillotine demands more blood!
by Blue Eyed Devil on Sep 5, 2011 3:30 PM PDT
If you're going to eat poison, you might as well lick the plate.
Our linemen are barely big enough to play the 3-4…
by TheCowboyWay on Jan 20, 2012 2:15 PM CST up reply actions
Oh, you hit on it here
This was/is my biggest complaint about Parcells in that he put scheme over team originally in switching us to a 3-4. I understand his belief in that D and at the time, there may have been some real advantages as not many teams employed it or were drafting for it.
But I gotta say, I respect the hell out of coaches that can clearly evaluate their own players and scheme for accentuating strengths and hiding weaknesses. John Fox this season in Denver comes to mind.
" ... Any one of 500 coaches could have won those Super Bowls." Jones later denied saying such a thing -- sober. So he qualified it with, yet another, infamous quote: It "was just the whiskey talking."
"...it may be the whiskey talkin', but the whiskey says I miss you, everyday..."- Fountains of Wayne
Why does it have to be one or the other?
I would love to be able to switch between the two. Run heavy teams play 4-3, to get some bigger bodies up front. Pass heavy teams play 3-4, to get more rushers on the field.
by Ceasaleo on Jan 19, 2012 8:42 PM CST via mobile reply actions
I think this plays into one of Garrett's mantras
situational football. Have the correct personnel to counter whatever the offense wants to do.
by TheCowboyWay on Jan 20, 2012 2:15 PM CST up reply actions
This will open up FA a little bit
This allows you to go out and legitimately pursue a guy like Cliff Avril for the LDE spot or even getting Mario Williams who was a more natural DE than a 3-4 Linebacker anyway. I think the idea for a 3-4 is to be able to confuse the offense who is coming and who isn’t a little more. With a pass rusher like Demarcus Ware in your 3-4 alignment, there isn’t much guessing there what he is going to be doing from whatever spot he lines up in.
Plus, Garrett was on a team that won the super bowl with a 4-3 defense so he may be a little more in favor of that since the Cowboys won 3 super bowls with that defensive front, and have won one playoff game with the 3-4 and it is much harder to scout for.
"I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle, victorious." –Vince Lombardi
Interesting
Nothing wrong with considering it, I trust they’ll make the right decision. At least they continue to show the urge to improve.
I hope we bring back the 4-3 where it was perfected by the master Tom Landry
I know it won’t be Doomsday, but it wouldn’t hurt to try..
by dcsince77 on Jan 19, 2012 9:50 PM CST via mobile reply actions
That was different from the 4-3 teams run today.
The flex was much more sophisticated, it was hard to teach and hard to learn. That’s why in a copy cat league it was never copied.
The only prefect science is hindsight............Lock n Load
+54
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Bring back Mike Zimmer then !
But that’s not going to happen.
Wish you were here and comfortably numb.
they should use both, why just one?
evaluate personnel and see if they can play certain packages in certain situations
I bet that is what they will do
a 4-3 but switch to a 3-4 front in pass rushing situations, like lots of colleges have started to do.
"I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle, victorious." –Vince Lombardi
by ProBowlFactory on Jan 19, 2012 11:07 PM CST up reply actions
Now the Robert Callaway deal
makes more sense, as he appears to be more of a 4-3 DT than anything else. I was puzzled as to why he was signed to a 3 year deal. I think the key (and i know it’s certainly not a done deal) would be ware making a smooth transition from OLB to DE.
Even if they run more of a hybrid scheme, it makes sense from a rotational standpoint. The right personnel for the right situation.
by TheCowboyWay on Jan 20, 2012 2:12 PM CST up reply actions
I like the 4-3 better, but we don't have the LBs for it.
The only prefect science is hindsight............Lock n Load
Lee, Carter, and… Vontaze?
There are also some other free agent options that could be had for relatively good deals.
by TheCowboyWay on Jan 20, 2012 2:07 PM CST up reply actions
whats the stud ILB in the draft..him?
"Obviously, I felt like if I ran into my lineman there it was going to help the play" ~Tony Romo
Burfict, Kuelchy and the kid from UNC Zach Brown.
Wish you were here and comfortably numb.
I can't really explain why
but Burfict seems less of a risk if playing in a 4-3 than in the current form of 3-4 we play. I felt our players had not picked up the new defensive scheme by year’s end as fast as other new scheme places. It looked to me like the kinds of mistakes being made were from a lack of understanding of the system. I do not feel Burfict has the personality, discipline, or patience to pick that kind of system up. However, a 4-3 seems to be is a little more straight forward so maybe he could be more productive just reacting off of instincts in that kind of system.
I Wall of Text like it's the in thing to do
"...and just things really starting to unravel now for Utah..." Herbie, BSU vs. Utah, 22 Dec 2010
Ha
probably. Though Garrett seemed to be serious when he was talking about the best scheme for his personnel. And Rat at DT could be pretty good.
by TheCowboyWay on Jan 20, 2012 2:09 PM CST up reply actions
Campbell from Arizona is perfect then resign Spencer
I never said i was right, but i aint never wrong
Campbell is good
but I would love Mario Williams.
by TheCowboyWay on Jan 20, 2012 2:11 PM CST up reply actions
its not a confirmation that they are switching mind you
however it is interesting nonetheless that he left the door open the way that he did
by TheCowboyWay on Jan 20, 2012 4:40 PM CST up reply actions
That sounds just like normal Garrettspeak to me.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see us run a more hybrid system, but I would be pretty surprised if we committed hard to a full blown switch.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
thats what I was thinking
but from the way he was talking about FA and draft it seems like he wants to get the best players possible and then determine the scheme that works best to their strengths as opposed to vice versa. I don’t think it will be set in stone one way or the other.
by TheCowboyWay on Jan 20, 2012 4:36 PM CST up reply actions
Yep, the sounds about right.
Recall how Belichick started using more 4-3 fronts while Fat Albert was there. Rob’s defense seems fluid enough that trying to pidgeon hole into a numbered scheme is pretty pointless.
by TheBlueBaron on Jan 22, 2012 2:09 PM CST up reply actions
And Ryan uses different fronts anyway
If you take the current personnel: Line-up Butler, Lee and Carter at LB with Ware, Ratliff, Hatcher and Spencer on the D-line and you have the teams best pass rushers on the field together. However, one could also drop Ware and/or Spencer to 3-4 OLB and Carter into coverage as a SS and end up with the 2-man line that Ryan has been experimenting with the last few years. This allows the team to put players in the best chance for them to succeed based on their skill set. Ryan could then bring in Brent/ Liss and give a more traditional 3-4 look with a minor shift instead of a philosophical change.
Now for the pure speculation part: It may be that the next evolution of Rob Ryan’s defense is better described as a 4-3, despite its roots as a 3-4.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
and another thing is that Dallas already uses a 4-3 style D
as it’s nickel Package alot….
another thing is that while it was just a “trick Formation” Dallas ran a 4-3 “Flex” it’s first Defensive snap this year, remember?
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Jan 24, 2012 12:55 AM CST up reply actions
Good Point
Rob Ryan tried to do in this Cleveland. He tried to switch between 2,3 and 4 man defensive lines, often just before the snap. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn’t. He didn’t have the talent to pull off this neo-flex defense in Cleveland. It seems like he has more of the pieces in Dallas, but not enough. We are all hoping he can get all of the pieces this off-season; I do expect to see a different kind of defense in 2012.
I don’t have any talent for prognostication, but if I were forced to guess, I would predict a versatile OLB in the first round. Like Ware, it seems that Ryan’s defense needs both OLB to be like Woodson was in the secondary (complete players at 3-4 OLB or 4-3 DE).
The best thing about seeing the “Flex” run as the first defensive play was that it demonstrated that the coaches appreciate the history of the franchise and Ryan is real student of the game.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
Neo-flex defense...
I like the sound of that and a good name for it too. A defense that can move to whatever front that we need for the situation or formation. I think we already have the personnel to be able to pull that off but with the draft we can do even more so. Although I am for switching to a more primarily 4-3 defense. In passing situations though, what the Giants do is actually something to model after. They have nothing but pass rushers out there on the DLine. No reason to have a non pass rusher on the field at that time. That is when we need to have Jay on the Line and then have Butler, Ware, and hopefully two more pass rushers on top of them with Lee and Carter either rushing, covering or spying.
"I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle, victorious." –Vince Lombardi
by ProBowlFactory on Jan 29, 2012 9:07 AM CST up reply actions
Cornerbacks? We don't need no stinkin' Cornerbacks!!!
Starting 3-4 lineup:
ROLB-Ware(6-5 260)
RDE-Mario Williams(6-6 290)
MILB-Sean Lee(6-2 240)
NT-Ratliff(6-4 290)
MILB-Bruce Carter(6-3 240)
LDE-Coples (6-6 280)
LOLB- Albright(6-4 250)
Starting 4-3 DL:
LDE-Ware(6-5 260)
LDT-Williams(6-6 290)
RDT-Ratliff(6-4 290)
RDE- Coples(6-6 280)
ROLB-Carter(6-3 240)
MLB-Sean Lee(6-2 240)
LOLB-Albright(6-4 250)
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Jan 30, 2012 8:59 PM CST up reply actions
Think about it..........
Ryan put in his 3-4 last year and sometimes they looked lost. They have the off season to get his 3-4 down, it would stupid to change again to the 4-3 now. A 3-4 coach and they have drafted 3-4 players for years now, it’s staying the 3-4.
The only prefect science is hindsight............Lock n Load
Just to clarify
Parcells’ first team in 2003 didnt run the 3-4 did it? It was still a 4-3 I believe and it was the best defense in the league, at least in terms of yards allowed and points allowed.
While I do like the flexibility that the 34 gives
switching back to the 43 wouldn’t be so bad.
I’d rather run a hybrid a’la baltimore, that would just enhance the unpredictability I suppose – having ware play more like suggs (more often, since he does go hands on the turf from time to time) Though this is just my madden-gamer talking.
Each week, play whoever is standing across the field from you, whenever and wherever. If you match up well, exploit it and win. If you don’t, then get very crafty in your game play and try to "steal" a win anyway. Repeat process until no more games remain, and confetti rains down from a retractable roof and Roger Goodell is handing out hardware. - hookerhome
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RIP Chuck Shuldiner - Father of Death Metal
Interesting article from Bob Sturm today...
This is Pat Kirwan’s take on Dallas’ defense…it may not be popular with the 4-3 lovers out there…http://www.foxsportssouthwest.com/02/02/12/Kirwan-weighs-in-on-defensive-scheme/landing_cowboys.html?blockID=658390&feedID=3799
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