Finding Playmaking Outside Linebackers In The 2012 Draft: Ingram, Upshaw & Co.
Early in his tenure as defensive coordinator in Dallas, Rob Ryan weighed in on the importance of outside linebackers for his defensive scheme:
"If you're going to play a 3-4 defense and don't have outside backers, you don't have a defense," said 3-4 expert Rob Ryan. "You've got to be able to set the edge and rush a passer. It starts with them. They've got to be playmakers. That's what you get in a 3-4."
Perennial All-Pro DeMarcus Ware continues to be a matchup nightmare on the right side of the Cowboys defense, notching 19.5 sacks this season, but bookend OLB Anthony Spencer collected only six sacks. Spencer is terrific against the run and can also cover but OLBs are measured on disruptive and Spencer has never quite put up the numbers many were hoping for. Spencer is entering free agency, so the Cowboys may be looking for a replacement player in the draft.
After the break, we take a look at the options at OLB in the 2012 draft class. We'll do that using a statistic called 'Production Ratio' to assess the OLB prospects and to find out how many OLB playmakers will be available for the Cowboys in the draft.
The Production Ratio was initially proposed by NFL.com's Pat Kirwan in his book titled "Take Your Eye Off the Ball", and is really a very simple formula that adds up sacks and tackles-for-loss and divides them by number of college games played. The resulting ratio is one tool among many - albeit a pretty good one - that measures the playmaking potential of front seven players coming out of college.
The Production Ratio is calculated as follows:
(SACKS + TACKLES FOR LOSS) / NUMBER OF GAMES PLAYED = PRODUCTION RATIO
What you want in a Production Ratio is a score of 1.0 or better. Effectively, a score of 1.0 says that a player recorded one splash play in the defensive backfield per game.The higher the number, the better.
But before we look at the 2012 draft class, let's look at last year's standout OLB rookies and their college Production Ratio:
| NFL | College Production | ||||||
| Draft Round / Pick | Player | Team | Sacks 2011 | Sacks | TFL | Games | Production Ratio |
| Round: 1 / Pick: 7 | Aldon Smith | SF | 14 | 17 | 29 | 23 | 2.00 |
| Round: 1 / Pick: 2 | Von Miller | DEN | 11.5 | 33 | 50.5 | 47 | 1.78 |
| Round: 1 / Pick: 16 | Ryan Kerrigan | WAS | 7.5 | 37.5 | 55.5 | 48 | 1.94 |
| Round: 2 / Pick: 43 | Brooks Reed | HOU | 6 | 17 | 25 | 46 | 0.91 |
| Round: 3 / Pick: 70 | Justin Houston | KC | 5.5 | 20 | 38 | 36 | 1.61 |
| Round: 2 / Pick: 39 | Akeem Ayers | TEN | 2 | 14 | 29.5 | 37 | 1.18 |
Overall, the Production Ratio appears to be one good indicator for how good a college player could be at the NFL level. Of course, there are a multitude of other factors that determine how well a prospect will do both at the college and NFL level, but the correlation between college production and NFL production is strong enough to take a long hard look at the 2012 class using that stat. Before we go there though, here's what the College Production Ratios for the Cowboys OLBs look like:
| Draft Round / Pick | Player | School | Sks | TFL | Games | Production Ratio |
| Round: 1 / Pick: 11 |
DeMarcus Ware |
Troy | 27.5 | 57 | 43 | 1.96 |
| Round: 1 / Pick: 26 |
Anthony Spencer |
Purdue | 21 | 44 | 47 | 1.38 |
| Round: 4 / Pick: 110 | Victor Butler | Oregon St. |
25.5 | 39.5 | 49 | 1.33 |
| Undrafted | Alex Albright | Boston College | 14 | 30 | 30 | 1.47 |
What stands out immediately here is Ware's very high Production Ratio in college, which obviously translated well into the NFL. If we take last year's OLB rookies and the current Cowboys OLBs as a baseline, this would suggest that the threshold for a successful NFL OLB is probably somewhere around the 1.4-1.5 mark, while a score closer to 2.0 could be an indication that a prospect has a good chance of becoming a very good OLB in the NFL.
2012 Outside Linebackers
Now on to this year's draft class. The following table shows the current top-ranked outside linebackers, sorted by their CBS Draft Rankings (OVR is the overall ranking on the CBS big board from January 16th).
| OVR | Player | School | Height | Weight | Sacks | TFL | Games | Production Ratio |
| 12 | Quinton Coples | North Carolina | 6-6 | 285 | 24 | 40.5 | 50 | 1.29 |
| 14 | Melvin Ingram | South Carolina | 6-2 | 276 | 21 | 30.5 | 50 | 1.03 |
| 16 | Nick Perry | USC | 6-3 | 250 | 21.5 | 29.5 | 37 | 1.38 |
| 21 | Courtney Upshaw | Alabama | 6-2 | 265 | 16.5 | 35.5 | 53 | 0.98 |
| 31 | Whitney Mercilus | Illinois | 6-4 | 265 | 18 | 29 | 37 | 1.27 |
| 52 | Ronnell Lewis | Oklahoma | 6-2 | 244 | 10 | 20.5 | 34 | 0.90 |
| 55 | Bruce Irvin | West Virginia | 6-3 | 245 | 22.5 | 29 | 26 | 1.98 |
| 56 | Chandler Jones | Syracuse | 6-5 | 265 | 10 | 27 | 32 | 1.16 |
| 58 | Andre Branch | Clemson | 6-5 | 260 | 18.5 | 33 | 48 | 1.07 |
| 60 | Vinny Curry | Marshall | 6-5 | 242 | 26.5 | 49 | 45 | 1.68 |
| 62 | Jonathan Massaquoi | Troy | 6-2 | 270 | 19.5 | 31 | 25 | 2.02 |
| 85 | Brandon Lindsey | Pittsburgh | 6-2 | 250 | 22.5 | 33.5 | 45 | 1.24 |
| 129 | Malik Jackson | Tennessee | 6-5 | 270 | 13 | 27.5 | 39 | 1.04 |
| 162 | Shea McClellin | Boise St. | 6-3 | 258 | 19.5 | 32 | 49 | 1.05 |
| 167 | Darius Fleming | Notre Dame | 6-2 | 255 | 15.5 | 32.5 | 50 | 0.96 |
| 181 | Olivier Vernon | Miami (FL) | 6-4 | 265 | 9 | 21 | 30 | 1.00 |
| 192 | Jacquies Smith | Missouri | 6-4 | 255 | 13 | 26 | 51 | 0.76 |
| 205 | Jack Crawford | Penn St. | 6-5 | 265 | 14 | 26 | 48 | 0.83 |
| 206 | Adrian Robinson | Temple | 6-2 | 250 | 22.5 | 33.5 | 50 | 1.12 |
| 207 | Kyle Wilber | Wake Forest | 6-5 | 240 | 13.5 | 35.5 | 43 | 1.14 |
| 232 | Julian Miller | West Virginia | 6-4 | 268 | 27.5 | 42.5 | 52 | 1.35 |
| 312 | Frank Alexander | Oklahoma | 6-4 | 255 | 20.5 | 44 | 48 | 1.34 |
Two things stand out here. At first glance, based on these Production Ratios, this does not look to be a promising draft class for playmaking outside linebackers. Only three players, Irvin, Curry and Massaquoi have a Production Ratio above 1.4 and some of the more highly touted prospects have downright awful values.
The second thing that stands out is that two out of the top three players, Irvin, and Massaquoi have recorded only about half the games most of their peers have. This brings us back to last year's draft class. Aldon Smith had the best production ratio among OLBs (2.00) after playing only 23 college games, and J.J. Watt rated as the best defensive end (1.85). Watt started his college career at Central Michigan as a tight end before moving to Wisconsin for his final two years and 26 games as a defensive end.
In this year's class, Bruce Irvin is a JUCO transfer and only played two years at West Virginia. Massaquoi is also a JUCO transfer with only two years at Troy. Other players played for only three seasons before declaring for the draft. Almost all of these players have an advantage in the Production Ratio rankings because in contrast to some other players, they don't have freshman or sophomore years to 'sully' their records.
So to even the playing field among the OLB prospects, the following table only contains the Production Ratio for the last two years of each player's college career. And this time, it's not sorted by the CBSSports rank but by Production Ratio.
| OVR | Player | School | Height | Weight | Sacks | TFL | Games | Production Ratio |
| 60 | Vinny Curry | Marshall | 6-5 | 242 | 23 | 40 | 25 | 2.52 |
| 62 | Jonathan Massaquoi | Troy | 6-2 | 270 | 19.5 | 31 | 25 | 2.02 |
| 55 | Bruce Irvin | West Virginia | 6-3 | 245 | 22.5 | 29 | 26 | 1.98 |
| 12 | Quinton Coples | North Carolina | 6-6 | 285 | 17.5 | 30.5 | 26 | 1.85 |
| 85 | Brandon Lindsey | Pittsburgh | 6-2 | 250 | 18.5 | 29 | 26 | 1.83 |
| 312 | Frank Alexander | Oklahoma | 6-4 | 255 | 15.5 | 32 | 26 | 1.83 |
| 21 | Courtney Upshaw | Alabama | 6-2 | 265 | 15.5 | 31.5 | 26 | 1.81 |
| 14 | Melvin Ingram | South Carolina | 6-2 | 276 | 19 | 26 | 27 | 1.67 |
| 31 | Whitney Mercilus | Illinois | 6-4 | 265 | 17 | 25.5 | 26 | 1.63 |
| 162 | Shea McClellin | Boise St. | 6-3 | 258 | 15.5 | 25 | 26 | 1.56 |
| 58 | Andre Branch | Clemson | 6-5 | 260 | 16.5 | 25.5 | 27 | 1.55 |
| 232 | Julian Miller | West Virginia | 6-4 | 268 | 15 | 25 | 26 | 1.54 |
| 207 | Kyle Wilber | Wake Forest | 6-5 | 240 | 9.5 | 26 | 25 | 1.42 |
| 16 | Nick Perry | USC | 6-3 | 250 | 13.5 | 20.5 | 24 | 1.42 |
| 56 | Chandler Jones | Syracuse | 6-5 | 265 | 8.5 | 17 | 20 | 1.28 |
| 192 | Jacquies Smith | Missouri | 6-4 | 255 | 10.5 | 19 | 24 | 1.23 |
| 52 | Ronnell Lewis | Oklahoma | 6-2 | 244 | 9 | 18 | 22 | 1.23 |
| 129 | Malik Jackson | Tennessee | 6-5 | 270 | 7.5 | 22 | 25 | 1.18 |
| 181 | Olivier Vernon | Miami (FL) | 6-4 | 265 | 7.5 | 14 | 19 | 1.13 |
| 206 | Adrian Robinson | Temple | 6-2 | 250 | 10 | 18 | 25 | 1.12 |
| 167 | Darius Fleming | Notre Dame | 6-2 | 255 | 9.5 | 18 | 26 | 1.06 |
| 205 | Jack Crawford | Penn St. | 6-5 | 265 | 8.5 | 12 | 23 | 0.89 |
Even though this list looks mighty enticing at the top, keep in mind that the numbers here are inflated by limiting the data to a player's last two years. By this methodology, the Cowboys' own Victor Butler should be a pass rushing phenom: Over the 26 games in his last two years at Oregon State Butler notched 22.5 sacks and 34 tackles for loss for a two-year Production Ratio of 2.17.
Nevertheless, the likes of Vinny Curry, Jonathan Massaquoi and Bruce Irving are highly intriguing prospects. And if any of them are still around when the Cowboys are on the clock with the 45th pick, I'd jump all over them.
This formula, like every other stat-based projective tool, is not going to be a perfect predictor of how successful these players are going to be in the NFL. But it does give you something to think about as you evaluate these players and their potential, and it may be one building block in identifying who this year's playmakers will be - and who won't. In a couple of weeks, the combine will provide us with some more metrics, giving us an even bigger data base from which to assess players.
Next week, we'll look at defensive ends and defensive tackles using the same metrics.
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Comments
Should be able to get a rush linebacker upgrade to Spencer
In round 2 or 3, if you can trust this methodology.
I'm not sure if we read the same article
in which OCC clearly stated that Victor Butler had a better production rate than ALL of the guys listed if you compare similar data. VB was a 4th round pick – do we really want to use a 2nd round pick on a guy who’s production is expected to be less?
Also, this article is about pass rushing from the OLB spot. We all know Spencer is a pretty good run stopping OLB, but we know nothing of these guys.
I’d be very wary of trading in Spencer for Vinny Curry or Massoguia.
by Tyrone Jenkins on Jan 21, 2012 10:03 AM CST up reply actions
Thanks for calling out Butler
I’ve wanted to see more of him.
by Elkmgr on Jan 20, 2012 5:34 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
i agree
seem like every time butler is on the field, he is around the ball. He needs to play more. But the “experts” (if you can call them that) don’t think he is a 3 down player. I say, how do they know if he is hardly on the field
Very astute.
I agree, I have wanted to see more of him and now I’m intrigued by the possibility of Albright. Some of those Boston College linebackers look like they can play in the NFL. Mark Herzlich was starting for the Giants, despite being injury plagued. Don’t know what kind of numbers he put up, but the dude beat cancer not too long ago.
I think chandler jones could be the next jpp. He's an athletic freak just like his brother Jon.
I’m not sure what his reach is but his brothers is 6’4 with an 84.5" wingspan. Given that chandler is 6’5, his wingspan should be at least that large if not slightly more. I think once he lights up the combine he will be a hot name. I think if we could snag him in the third, we should jump on it.
by matt575 on Jan 20, 2012 5:57 AM CST via mobile reply actions
I'm pretty lukewarm on Jones
not very high production and on film he just doesn’t jump out at me.
Reminds me more of Jason Hatcher than JPP.
"There are no traffic jams along the extra mile." ~ Roger Staubach
Another Hatcher is good.
But not when you’re a second round pick.
My most recent fanpost:
The Weekly Chessmatch: Cowboys @ Eagles
by CotySaxman on Jan 20, 2012 6:42 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Third, I meant.
My most recent fanpost:
The Weekly Chessmatch: Cowboys @ Eagles
by CotySaxman on Jan 20, 2012 6:43 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
not believer in Curry, but Massaquoi is my boy
before there was law, there were the Cowboys!!!
I am also high on Massaquoi...
And it would be kinda cool to have two Troy dudes on the outside.
by stegosaurus! on Jan 20, 2012 7:24 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Really? I like Curry. I think he shows a ton of burst off the line.
He played quite well against the Buckeyes.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
I don't see much college
but I know who Massaquoi is from repeatedly hearing his name…
What is the star now? A fallen piece of hardened plastic? The heaviest franchise in American sport? A false idol adored by many millions? The epitome of all that can be achieved with hard work? All that can be lost with too strong a sense of entitlement? A welcome coping mechanism, distracting from the real negativity on Earth? A bonding and separating agent?
by BlueNSilverBlood on Jan 21, 2012 10:02 AM CST up reply actions
If Frank Alexander goes undrafted
With him being an OK player, I could see us getting a potential bargain. If his stock rises, he wouldn’t be a bad late rounder, either. Good size for a 3-4 OLB.
I’m all for keeping Spencer for around 3yrs/10M.
My most recent fanpost:
The Weekly Chessmatch: Cowboys @ Eagles
by CotySaxman on Jan 20, 2012 6:40 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Spencer laughs at your 3 years 10 million
Sensabaugh got 5 years 25 million and Spencer is much better at a more premium position.
Get ready to double that at least.
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 20, 2012 7:20 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
if true then .... Bye. Bye. Spencer .
not Buy .. Buy But goodbye . see ya later…..
Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.
Winston Churchill
We Fight On !!,That's The Cowboys Way !!.
Go Cowboys!!
by scotscowboyfan on Jan 20, 2012 7:55 AM CST up reply actions
I wouldn't mind him getting a 5 year
“prove it” deal, like scandrick and sensabaugh, either. After year 2, you can cut ties.
My most recent fanpost:
The Weekly Chessmatch: Cowboys @ Eagles
by CotySaxman on Jan 20, 2012 8:53 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
the cowboys still haven't appproached Spencer's agent
About a deal of ANY kind. That should tell you all you need to know.
"There are no traffic jams along the extra mile."- Roger Staubach
Pet Cat of 2011- Barry Church!
I STILL believe in Tony Romo.- 10/2/11
by Rat-Pack on Jan 20, 2012 8:22 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Nor should they
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Jan 20, 2012 8:27 AM CST up reply actions
I'm ready for Spencer to go.
I like it when the Cowboys give guys like Doug Free a shot. I think the same should follow for Victor Butler.
What
These stats don’t account for is level of competition… While curry and Massasoi look ready, do you realize there’s a difference between conference USA and sun belt? We need to start taking sec players…. They are at sec schools for a reason. They are bigger, faster, stronger and more pro ready… I’m tired of projects from small schools… That’s how we end up with bums like aoa and Jason Williams….
by drobe86 on Jan 20, 2012 6:49 AM CST via mobile reply actions
its also how we get players like Demarcus Ware and Larry Allen
you find playmakers at any level of the sport….the ones in higher programs more than likely feel more entitled than someone who has had to work their butt off their entire career to showcase their talent….
Good Luck to the 53. Stand with Honor, Play With Pride. Bring It Home
by TruBluToTheCore on Jan 20, 2012 7:16 AM CST up reply actions
Yea but
For every ware and Allen I present to you aoa, Jason Williams, Robert Brewster, Joshua Thomas, and insert thousands of bums that people think can make the transition from small school to big boy football… If it ain’t sec, big 12 or big 10… 8 outta 10 times they can’t play
by drobe86 on Jan 20, 2012 9:33 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
I cringe when you call any pro ball player a bum.
What is the star now? A fallen piece of hardened plastic? The heaviest franchise in American sport? A false idol adored by many millions? The epitome of all that can be achieved with hard work? All that can be lost with too strong a sense of entitlement? A welcome coping mechanism, distracting from the real negativity on Earth? A bonding and separating agent?
by BlueNSilverBlood on Jan 21, 2012 10:05 AM CST up reply actions
yes, what Dallas needs is more marcus spears, glen dorsey, derrick harvey …
For God and country - Geronimo
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Jan 20, 2012 8:34 AM CST up reply actions
thats about the 3 worst selections in the 1st round from the SEC
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
LOL
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 20, 2012 6:08 PM CST up reply actions
Take your small school hate and shove it
1) SEC kids put up #s against garbage offenses and garbage QBs (see Jordan Jefferson, John Brantley, Jarrett Lee et al).
2) DeMarcus Ware, Osi from Troy, JPP from South Florida, think this is a ridiculous statement.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 20, 2012 9:45 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
so what happened when the Ducks expolsive offense played LSU?
you cant take every players situation into account but in general the SEC has great defensive players. its the main reason the SEC owns the championship bowl & all those expolsive offenses land on there butts when they play NFL calibur talent on defense
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
I'm not an Oregon fan
But I guarantee U$C would have crushed LSU. U$C doesn’t use a gimmic spread offense. They have SEC talent on their roster, and have NFL ready talent on offense.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 20, 2012 10:22 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
oh really? you guarantee?
whats a guarantee from you worth?
Any more and you are getting a cease and desist from chromasters balls inc. - Chromaster
by Mr. Abe Froman on Jan 20, 2012 10:57 AM CST up reply actions
your "guarentee" aboiut USC is about as good as your SEC defenses stinking lol
USC had a few good years but the last i checked the Ducks own the Pac & now the Ducks are recruiting bigger DL to compete with SEc schools.
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
U$C is getting those players again
Lane Kiffin was one of their best recruiters. U$C is like the Hurricanes, SEC level talet on defense, and NFL level talent on offense.
U$C will be pre-season top 5 in the BCS, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they ended up winning it all in 2012.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 21, 2012 3:23 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
I will say this, I have watched a decent amount of USC stuff this offseason
scouting Perry, and the potential in that program is extremely high. Berkley, Woods, and Galippo all look like they are going to be very good NFL players.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
Ok
So what about the Hank baskets, chase blackbucks, orie lemons, and other bums from small schools that litter NFL rosters? Guys like d ware come along once in a lifetime… Guys that come from small schools come a dime a dozen… Those guys would give their life to play sec ball… That’s big boy football and that’s why they own the bcs…
by drobe86 on Jan 20, 2012 10:28 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Yup, SEC is the only legit conference in College Football
Everyone else is chopped liver. The BCS Title game should just be the replay of the SEC West’s top matchup that year.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 20, 2012 10:35 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Ok
So if the sec doesn’t produce the best players why do they play for titles every year… Only Texas,USC,Ohio state, and Oklahoma can be mentioned with sec prospects… The rest of the conferences produce jags… Wisconsin gives you quality guys on the line but that’s it… And you guys are wanting to draft kids outta Marshall, Troy, and Arizona? Who does that?
by drobe86 on Jan 20, 2012 10:51 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
I take the best players where ever they come from
That’s how every scout and gm approaches talent evaluation.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 20, 2012 11:06 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
hmmm...
Randy Moss = Marshall
Demarcus Ware= Troy
Darren Woodson= Arizona
good talent is where you find it….
Good Luck to the 53. Stand with Honor, Play With Pride. Bring It Home
by TruBluToTheCore on Jan 20, 2012 11:18 AM CST up reply actions
Woody is the exception to the AZ rule.
I’m an AZ guy.
What is the star now? A fallen piece of hardened plastic? The heaviest franchise in American sport? A false idol adored by many millions? The epitome of all that can be achieved with hard work? All that can be lost with too strong a sense of entitlement? A welcome coping mechanism, distracting from the real negativity on Earth? A bonding and separating agent?
by BlueNSilverBlood on Jan 21, 2012 10:11 AM CST up reply actions
the SEC cant help no other conference could compete with them.
even the next best schools like Ok St or Stanford would’ve been beat by multiple TDs so they did the right things rematching LSU & Ala
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
Have you heard of the PAC-12?
They had three teams in the top-10 in the polls that included USC despite their bowl ineligibility (AP Top 25 and ESPN Power Rankings): Oregon, Stanford and USC were ranked #4, #5 and/or #6, depending on the poll.
this type of comment is just as bad as saying the SEC has the only top flight NFL talent.
its shortsighted and makes you look stupid.
Any more and you are getting a cease and desist from chromasters balls inc. - Chromaster
by Mr. Abe Froman on Jan 20, 2012 10:57 AM CST up reply actions
Ok so
In your opinion where do the best players come from?
Tell me what you think about:
Aoa
Jason Williams
Phillip tanner
Abram Elam
What you’ll find is they are all small school players that are pet cats and they are all bums…. Sure there are exceptions but far and few between…
by drobe86 on Jan 20, 2012 11:04 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
im not saying either way. all the conferences lay claim to a good number of talent in the NFL.
and so much more matters after they get to their respective teams than where they went to school.
Any more and you are getting a cease and desist from chromasters balls inc. - Chromaster
by Mr. Abe Froman on Jan 20, 2012 11:14 AM CST up reply actions
Your logic is lacking
Yes, picking out school vs. school or conference vs. conference, the level of talent in the SEC looks better at the NFL level. But If you were just thinking large conference schools vs. small conference schools as a whole, you will see closer numbers, because there are so many schools that don’t belong to the top 5-6 conferences. The indisputable fact is that a small school can only recruit 1 or 2 playmakers each class, the rest are scrubs at the NFL level. But if you cull all the small school prospects, you can get a great list of NFL talent every year. That I’m sure of.
Look at the Cowboys roster:
Small school players:
Romo
Austin
Ware
Free
Hatcher
Elam
Robinson
Jenkins
Scandrick
Lissemore
Church
Arkin
Sure, some of these aren’t the greatest players, but some of Pro bowlers and most of them are solid.
This is where
You’re wrong… Most of them aren’t good. Romo, ware, hatcher, mike Jenkins went to south fla that’s not small… And was good but appears to already be declining… The rest of the list are jags…. That’s why were 6-10 to 8-8 type team… Jerry and co thinks those guys are good and they’re not…
by drobe86 on Jan 20, 2012 3:29 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Are you saying all those went to S Florida?
Tony Romo
Add to my favorites
#9 QB6’ 2", 228 lbsDallas Cowboys
Birth DateApril 21, 1980 (Age: 31)
Birth PlaceSan Diego, CA
Experience9 years
CollegeEastern Illinois
Ware went to Troy
Hatcher went to Grambling
Jenkins did go to S Florida.
OK, Jenkins went to S. Fla
I know, but it’s not a big football program. YOU are the one that said,
" Only Texas,USC,Ohio state, and Oklahoma can be mentioned with sec prospects… The rest of the conferences produce jags… Wisconsin gives you quality guys on the line but that’s it"
Here’s where you lose me. If someone mentions Ware, you say he’s a once in a generation player, if I mention Robinson, he’s a JAG. Huh? There’s nothing in between?
Austin is Good, Robinson is Good, Free is/can be a solid RT, Hatcher is a serviceable 3-4 DE. If we cut Hatcher last year, do you really think a team like the Pats or the Steelers wouldn’t have picked him up?
Fine, don’t look at the Cowboys, look around the league:
Ben Roethlisberger
Chris Johnson
James Harrison
Logan Mankins
Robert Mathis
Joe Flacco
Marques Colston
Greg Jennings
Jared Allen
Josh Cribbs
Jahri Evans….
Check out Arkansas.
They ended up #5 on the year and were up to #3 at one point. They are known for their O, not their D. The only 2 teams they lost to were LSU and the Tide.
i love the defensive prospects in the SEC.
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
I like them, not love them
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 20, 2012 10:28 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
That was where DeWare came from
so your analogy has some rather LARGE holes in it
would love to see this list resorted after the combine once we get their numbers...
show their 3 cone, 10 yard, and strength…..find the ones with the most burst, highest strength, and vertical as well to measure leg strength…all numbers that have been discussed that help to identify future ability as rushers in previous articles…
Good Luck to the 53. Stand with Honor, Play With Pride. Bring It Home
by TruBluToTheCore on Jan 20, 2012 7:19 AM CST reply actions
We’ll do exactly that after the combine. We’ll look at all those metrics and include calculations for Explosiveness and Lateral Agility as well.
by One.Cool.Customer on Jan 20, 2012 7:31 AM CST up reply actions
When Football Outsiders publish their Sackseer numbers, we’ll cover that as well.
by One.Cool.Customer on Jan 20, 2012 8:50 AM CST up reply actions
thanks OCC & always great work
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
Good article OCC, I was hoping someone would make this post!
I can’t wait to add short shuttle and vertical jump to this data and see how all the pass rushers rank.
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 20, 2012 7:24 AM CST via mobile reply actions
wasn't Burfict in that 2012 OLB class?
i know people dont care for his attitude but that kid could put some passion in this defense. right now the Dallas defense is exetremely soft
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
Spencer's Stupid Mistakes are What Kills Me
Facemask, untimely off-sides penalties, missing a RB assignment. I don’t even think we’d have much of a problem with Almost Anthony’s 5 sacks were it not for the facepalms he gave us almost every week with dumb mistakes. Also, if we had a d-lineman with ANY production it would take the microscope off our SOLB.
I will awaken my expectations for the Cowboys when Jerry Jones is in the ground.
totally agree, we need a force in the middle and move ratliff to DE.
maybe we can find a big athletic NT in the later rounds of this yrs draft.
Dude, your quote is awesome.
And that is absolutely true for Spencer. I would love to see Victor Butler start.
I have to say, DWare had his fare share of off side penalties at inopportune times this year.
by staubachfan on Jan 20, 2012 11:01 AM CST up reply actions
Spencer...
I have a pretty high opinion of Spencer’s game. He is solid on the run, and considering our backfield’s tackling, I’m not mad at his ability to set an edge. He can cover, well.
By the eyeball test, I would say Spence has a production ratio of at least 1.5, and you want to start putting disruption plays in there, like QB hurries, that number is going to jump. I LOVE me some Rat, but Spencer would have had three more sacks in the Giants games alone if the D-line did their job and Eli did not have a pocket to slide into. Call him “Almost Anthony”, how about, “Were barely there at times D-Line”?
What is the star now? A fallen piece of hardened plastic? The heaviest franchise in American sport? A false idol adored by many millions? The epitome of all that can be achieved with hard work? All that can be lost with too strong a sense of entitlement? A welcome coping mechanism, distracting from the real negativity on Earth? A bonding and separating agent?
by BlueNSilverBlood on Jan 21, 2012 10:27 AM CST up reply actions
Butler will emerge this year!
When butler is on the field, he has performed well. If given a bigger role in the defense, I truly believe he will be the force we expected Spencer to be. I also think we can snag a really good OLB in the middle of the draft, round 3 or 4, just grab an athlete who is coachable.
I've seen Butler get stonewashed by backs
And waste time trying to finesse his way around them… After 6 seconds, he gets there, but he should be able to bull rush a back. He doesn’t seem to get low coming off the edge, and let’s backs get under his pads.
The same happens when he tries to arm tackle backs. Do you think Garrett and Ryan are too stupid to figure out who they’d rather have on the field?
My most recent fanpost:
The Weekly Chessmatch: Cowboys @ Eagles
by CotySaxman on Jan 20, 2012 9:01 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Stonewalled
My most recent fanpost:
The Weekly Chessmatch: Cowboys @ Eagles
by CotySaxman on Jan 20, 2012 9:02 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Me too
I mean, who cares what kids of 1980s style jeans he wears after games?
And Butler is light – he does not have the same build that Spencer does. I’m surprised they haven’t used him in more passing situations, but he’s not a run stopper. The Patriots ran right at him.
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
"Meanwhile, like a bitter wine, Philadelphia’s jealousy fermented in the dark cellars of pride and resentment. With no playoff hopes of their own, Eagles fans turned towards hating the Cowboys." Steve Sabol, NFL films
This is true
I’m not the biggest Spencer fan, but it’s not all about sacks on obvious passing downs.
Sure we can upgrade Spencer, but we can also upgrade both DE spots and the NT spot.
+1
I think if we draft a true NT (cough Poe) slide Rat to DE and pick up a DE in FA (Cambell) the pass rush would be outstanding. This would also increase Spencer’s pass rushing stats. He gets great pressure but because the pocket isn’t collapsed the QB steps up and “AA” whiffs on the sack.
"Fear the Star" -A WISE Man!
by mho on Jan 21, 2012 2:31 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Yes, this
What is the star now? A fallen piece of hardened plastic? The heaviest franchise in American sport? A false idol adored by many millions? The epitome of all that can be achieved with hard work? All that can be lost with too strong a sense of entitlement? A welcome coping mechanism, distracting from the real negativity on Earth? A bonding and separating agent?
by BlueNSilverBlood on Jan 21, 2012 10:30 AM CST up reply actions
i have also seen
butler Make big plays. sacks, forced fumbles, tackles for loss, more than ive see him get stonewalled. He!! every player gets stonewalled every now and then, even Ware gets stonewalled.
Stonewalled by backs?
I swear it seems if we started Butler he would never get past Bradshaw of the Giants. I imagine Felix, Murray, and even Tanner stand him up in practice. Butler’s only chance is to run by or rip past the tight end. He doesn’t beat tackles and he can’t get by backs in a reasonable amount of time.
You want to compare that to Ware? He fights through the chipping tight end, and pushes left tackles back into the quarterback.
Being slightly faster than Spencer doesn’t mean much for Butler if the slightest obstacle brings him to a halt.
My most recent fanpost:
The Weekly Chessmatch: Cowboys @ Eagles
by CotySaxman on Jan 20, 2012 9:43 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
To look at ware we just have to go to the first game against the Redskins
When he pushed the tackle on him straight back and got through the RB at the same time. I believe that was the second time in the game he was arm tackled in order to keep him from Rex. I wish we had 5 more just like him.
The Garrett Guillotine demands more blood!
by Blue Eyed Devil on Sep 5, 2011 3:30 PM PDT
If you're going to eat poison, you might as well lick the plate.
by Final Frame on Jan 20, 2012 12:22 PM CST up reply actions
Yep
And it pissed me off because the Ref watched it happen. The next offensive series for Dallas Free got called for holding on a clean block. I must have misunderstood the rule book, because I wasn’t aware that the ref could transfer penalties to the other team!
"Fear the Star" -A WISE Man!
by mho on Jan 20, 2012 1:24 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
they stopped calling holding on the offense.
"Obviously, I felt like if I ran into my lineman there it was going to help the play" ~Tony Romo
Character Metrics
Interesting post OCC. What is also needed is a metric to show a player’s mental character. How do they respond when consistantly double teamed? How do they play when getting blown out? Can they make a splash play in crunch time? We have all seen work out warriors that fizzle when the pressure is on.
If not Butler maybe Albright
Either one of those dudes could easily replace Spencer. Signing that guy would be a mistake. But, I would rather see a ton of Defensive Backs drafted early. I saw a list of priority positions and I see it as O-Line & Secondary.
Two points
One, be careful saying things like “easily replace X.” We can replace him, we can upgrade, but it’s not going to be so easy as just plucking any rookie and inserting him. Remember, we thought we could “easily replace” Roy Williams (31), Ken Hamlin, Greg Ellis, Andre Gurode…
Two, signing Spencer would be a mistake if we overpay. Solid starters in the NFL are worth something. If he comes fairly cheap, we can upgrade a half dozen other spots on the defense by signing someone else and we’re not banking on Butler making a big leap or a rookie learning to play at the NFL level right out of the gate.
I dont think they could
Easily replace Spencer or it we would have seen alot more of them this year. Butler played cause ware got hurt a few times and needed the rest. Even then his production came on scrambling sacks and so on. Spencer will have to have a first rounder replace him to produce what he is right now. Can’t wait for it to happen and can’t wait to see the new stud toy everyone wanted produce less.
by Sado44 on Jan 20, 2012 7:12 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
It would be intersting to see what SackSEER says
Obviously we’ll have to wait till the end of the combine for that though.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 20, 2012 9:56 AM CST via mobile reply actions
This may have been done before (sounds familiar)
But is it possible to see the combine numbers/SackSEER numbers for the LBs we currently have on the roster – Ware, Spencer (even though he’s an FA), Butler, Albright, Lee, Carter, and Lemon – I know there’s a new guy in there too that I’m missing.
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
"Meanwhile, like a bitter wine, Philadelphia’s jealousy fermented in the dark cellars of pride and resentment. With no playoff hopes of their own, Eagles fans turned towards hating the Cowboys." Steve Sabol, NFL films
SackSEER
Looks at:
1) Vertical Leap
2) Short Shuttle Time
3) SRAM: adjusted sacks per game (not sure how they do it)
4) Total eligible games missed for any reason except early entry into the draft.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 20, 2012 10:19 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Comparing Spencer to the rest of his 2007 classmates
Any chance we could get a comparison of Spencer’s score to the rest of the pass rushers from 2007?
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 20, 2012 10:10 AM CST via mobile reply actions
i sure hope someone did better then Spencer out of that draft bc Spencer sure didn't do much
maybe it was a weak class in 2007 but Spencer sure didnt get the job done in 4 years.
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
Lamarr Woodley
according to the eye test, and just look at sacks, looked to be the better player in my opinion. more decorated player in college as well.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 20, 2012 10:28 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
yeah that jogged my mind about L.Woodley so it does give us hope about an OLB being productive outside the 1st rd
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
Yes, Woodley is the obvious answer.
We could have had him easily too.
Jammaal Anderson and Jarvis Moss taken above him.
Woodley and Tim Crowder after.
Not the greatest class. I think Spencer actually one of the better players, all things considered.
I wanted Lamar Woodley
Im surprised he dropped to the 2nd rd.
Hey Washington... D.C. stands for Dallas Cowboys
Jerry the GM…if we could only find a way to get rid of that guy…
Twitter: @silva918
I don’t know where I would find the data for all the other players, it was tough enough pulling Spencer’s stats out of various assorted scouting reports.
by One.Cool.Customer on Jan 20, 2012 10:29 AM CST up reply actions
There needs to be a resource that keeps an updated data base
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 20, 2012 10:37 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Spencer vs Woodley
Spencer’s Combime/Proday results:
Height: 6027
Weight: 261
40 Yrd Dash: 4.70
20 Yrd Dash: 2.74
10 Yrd Dash: 1.64
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 30
Vertical Jump: 32 1/2
Broad Jump: 09’04"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.43
3-Cone Drill: 7.14
LaMarr Woodley:
Height: 6014
Weight: 266
40 Yrd Dash: 4.74
20 Yrd Dash: 2.72
10 Yrd Dash: 1.65
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 29
Vertical Jump: 38 1/2
Broad Jump: 9’9"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.42
3-Cone Drill:
Overall other than the “jump tests” Woodley and Spencer are fairly Equal
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Jan 21, 2012 9:14 AM CST up reply actions
i'm curious about the Marshall kid...
Good Luck to the 53. Stand with Honor, Play With Pride. Bring It Home
by TruBluToTheCore on Jan 20, 2012 11:22 AM CST reply actions
He's good, I live in west Virginia. I'm a WVU fan but I've seen curry play a lot too.
I don’t think he’s a first rounder but has potential to be a really good player in the nfl. I personally don’t think Bruce Irvan is a first rounder either. He needs to gain 25-30 pounds. He’s only 225, 245 is what he said he wants to go into the combine at. He’s quicker than everyone but he has no spin move or power move, he just beats guys to the outside. He was playing the wrong position at WVU. No way he’s a 3-3-5 D-end so that will help a lot but he’s not a first rounder. I’d like him or curry in the second though.
by Dynamicduo on Jan 20, 2012 11:31 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Both have great potential IMO
Irvan was a safety moved down to d-end so he hasn’t been playing the position all that long, he still has a lot to learn and may turn into a pro bowler one of these days. Curry’s numbers speak for themselves.
by Dynamicduo on Jan 20, 2012 11:35 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
I'd like to see the same parameters applied to Spencer and all of these draft
prospects, but compared to the number of attempts at actually rushing the passer.
We’ve all heard that Spencer often drops into pass coverage or plays the run rather than rush the passer. If his pass rushing attempts were say half of D Ware’s then one could extrapolate that, had he had an equivalent number of rushes, his effective production ratio would double or more simply his effective sacks would be 12.
It seems to me that the above metric fails to include this important statistic, actual pass rushing attempts.
Wish you were here and comfortably numb.
Very good post OCC.
It sure is interesting to see the career values for some players versus their last year or two in college. I guess which you prefer goes to your thoughts on whether talent can show up a year or two into college, but I would certainly be more forgiving of a player breaking out later if they have been at a big-time program where they may have had trouble getting on the field initially.
Also, I already liked Massaquoi (although he is 24) and Curry, but now I like them even more. I can’t wait for the combine to get an even better idea of what we are working with here.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
So wait you are saying is ..
We can get DeCastro AND a stud pass rusher in the 2nd round eh? Sounds good to me.
"Obviously, I felt like if I ran into my lineman there it was going to help the play" ~Tony Romo
stud pass rusher in 2nd? no way Perry, Ingram will drop there
before there was law, there were the Cowboys!!!
um that irvin guy .. judging off these stats.
"Obviously, I felt like if I ran into my lineman there it was going to help the play" ~Tony Romo
Am i wrong or is currys stats just outstanding
Isn’t he worth a # 45 or where ever we pick I have the second.
by Sado44 on Jan 20, 2012 7:19 PM CST via mobile reply actions
The issue is that
Teams often reach for pass rushers in the first, especially towards the back of the draft
by matt575 on Jan 21, 2012 9:43 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
If Vinny Curry performs well at the combine
then he’ll probably be a first round pick
Sean Lissemore = The next Bruce Smith

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