Cowboys 2012 Draft: How Good Is Dallas At Assembling A Draft Board, Part III: Defense
In part one of this series, we looked at what most NFL scouting departments do each offseason to winnow the massive amount of draftable players down to a workable number, and offered a rearview-mirror look at the Cowboys' 2011 "little board," made up of guys who they invited out to Valley Ranch for Dallas Day events in early April. Part II offered a closer look at the various offensive players on Dallas' short list, presented what I hope were some interesting numbers from their first years in the league, and concluded with a few salient takeaways from those numbers.
Here, in Part III of the series, we'll do the same with the Dallas Day invitees on the other side of the ball. The Cowboys' offensive focus was fairly concentrated, with 10 of the 18 total players being offensive linemen and no quarterbacks or tight ends in the bunch. By contrast, there was a much broader and more uniform spread in their 2011 defensive players of interest: 4 defensive linemen; 3 inside linebackers; 2 outside linebackers; 6 corners; 4 safeties. All positions, from nose tackle to free safety, were represented.
Moreover, there was a much greater spread insofar as where these players were expected to go. While most of the offensive linemen in whom the Cowboys expressed interested were slotted by pundits to be first round picks (and the majority of running backs to be third or fourth rounders), Dallas' strategy seemed to be to establish defensive positional options in multiple rounds. For example, at safety, they took a closer look at guys who were selected in the second (Rahim Moore), fourth (Da'Norris Searcy) seventh rounds (Jonathan Nelson and Eric Hagg).
What do the numbers tell us? A handy-dandy chart, after the jump...
| Team and Round (pick #) | Games Played/ Starts | Position on Depth Chart | PFF Grades | Total Snaps | Rookie Year AV | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Defensive Linemen | ||||||
| Christian Ballard | MIN 4 (106) | 15/ 2 | 2 (LDE) | -0.8 | 245 | 1 |
| J.J. Watt | HOU 1 (11) | 16/ 16 | 1 (LDE) | 26.3 | 806 | 10 |
| Kenrick Ellis | NYJ 3 (94) | 5/2 | 2 (NT) | 2.7 | 69 | 1 |
| Ian Williams | SF UDFA | 1/0 | 3 (NT) | -0.2 | 7 | 0 |
| Inside Linebackers | ||||||
| Greg Lloyd | PHI 7 (237) | 0/0 | 2 (MLB) | NP | NP | 0(??) |
| Kelvin Sheppard | BUF 3 (68) | 16/ 9 | 1 (LILB) | 5.8 | 442 | 4 |
| Nate Irving | DEN 3 (67) | 15/ 0 | 2 (MLB) | 0 | 5 | 1 |
| Outside Linebackers | ||||||
| Bruce Carter | DAL 2 (40) | 7/0 | 2 (LILB) | -1.7 | 41 | 0 |
| Martez Wilson | NO 3 (72) | 13/ 1 | 3 (SLB) | -2.3 | 105 | 1 |
| Cornerbacks | ||||||
| Aaron Williams | BUF 2 (34) | 9/6 | 2 (LCB) | -6.4 | 444 | 2 |
| Brandon Burton | MIN 5 (139) | 10/1 | 4 (RCB) | -2.8 | 74 | 0 |
| Johnny Patrick | NO 3 (88) | 9/0 | 3 (RCB) | 1.2 | 47 | 0 |
| Korey Lindsey | CIN 7 (207) Cut, went to AZ P.S. | 0/0 | 4 (RCB) | NP | NA | 0 |
| Prince Amukamara | NYG 1 (19) | 7/0 | 2 (LCB) | -1.4 | 167 | 0 |
| Shareece Wright | SD 3 (89) | 6/0 | 3 (LCB) | 0.1 | 4 | 0 |
| Safeties | ||||||
| Da’Norris Searcy | BUF 4 (100) | 16/ 3 | 2 (SS) | 2.7 | 231 | 2 |
| Eric Hagg | CLEV 7 (248) | 10/0 | 3 (SS) | -3.6 | 182 | 1 |
| Jonathan Nelson | STL 7 (229), cut, went to CAR | 2/1 | 2 (FS) | -1.1 | 77 | 0 |
| Rahim Moore | DEN 2 (45) | 14/ 6 | 2 (FS) | -7.7 | 527 | 0 |
First, a bit of contextualization:
- AV is Pro Football Reference's cumulative season grade (they also offer career AV). Again, some context: for the first rounders, the highest 2011 AVs were Patrick Peterson's 25 and Cam Newton's 19. J.J. Watt's score of 10 ties him for fourth best among 2011 rooks, well above the first-round average of 5.75.
- Although these PFF grades may appear to be low, be advised that the average PFF grade given to 2011 first rounders was a .75. The average of the players in the above chart is .32, not far behind and a third of a point above the NFL average for all players. This is largely because of J.J. Watt's astonishing 26.3 but, considering that he's the only clear blue-chipper on this list, it's a strong number.
Some takeaways from this data:
- The Cowboys did an excellent job identifying guys in all rounds. This is most apparent in the late rounds, where some of their targets exceeded the expectation level of their draft positions. In particular, Kelvin Sheppard, Da'Norris Searcey and Eric Hagg outplayed pre-draft expectations.
- Several of these players might have shown more but were buried down the depth chart at positions of strength. Kenrick Ellis saw a few snaps on a deep Jets DL. UDFA Ian Williams managed to see some playing time on a very athletic and deep 49er front seven (suggesting that, even though most draftniks were pooh-poohing Williams, the Cowboys weren't foolish to take a longer look at him). A similar argument could be made for Martez Wilson and Johnny Patrick, both of whom earned late-season snaps on a veteran (albeit shaky) Saints defense.
- Rookie defensive backs rarely take the league by storm. Judging by their number of snaps, both Rahim Moore and Aaron Williams earned significant playing time, but their PFF grades suggest that each took his lumps in his rookie campaign.
The overall takeaway from this exercise? For years, people with access to Valley Ranch have been saying that Tom Ciskowski (and, before him, Jeff Ireland) do a masterful job identifying potential Cowboys and building a draft board. Given the guys, on both sides of the ball, in whom they expressed interest before the 2011 selection jamboree, this assertion appears to hold water. Still, the one way to really determine its truth is to look at one of the Cowboys' actual draft boards. And guess what? In the next and final installment of this series, we'll do just that, focusing on players who were drafted 40 or more spots before or after the Cowboys had them slotted. I'll ask: who was right? Dallas or the team that actually drafted the player.
In the meantime, share your thoughts on the chart above down below, in the comments section...
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Comments
Shouldn't Lee be on top?
"Obviously, I felt like if I ran into my lineman there it was going to help the play" ~Tony Romo
Chuck Norris is never the bottom!
I will awaken my expectations for the Cowboys when Jerry Jones is in the ground.
by Lord Humungus on Jan 27, 2012 6:13 PM CST up reply actions
If Bruce Carter had been taken before 40 I think Rahim Moore was the next pick
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
Glad we didn't get Moore, he was a major reach in the second round
The only reason he went that high was because there was very little in the way of safeties in the draft last year.
So in theory
Dallas knows what it is doing when it comes to setting up their board. So that isn’t the issue. I wonder what the issue then could be? Hmmmm………I wonder.
Cut!
No. No. No, man.
You're making me fall asleep,
to death bro! -Ghandi
Texas , tell me . The suspense is killing me.....
what could be the problem….
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Jan 28, 2012 6:20 AM CST up reply actions
The guy doing the picking
Mr. Jerry Jones.
Oh, my bad.
My bad?!
Your bad don't work in my world! -Ray Lewis
by TexasGarcia37 on Jan 28, 2012 11:31 AM CST up reply actions
DIng ding ding. Texas knows.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Jan 28, 2012 12:18 PM CST up reply actions
haha TG37 & mensa
winner winner chicken dinner
"Some people wear Superman pajamas, Superman wears Chuck Norris pajamas. But Chuck Norris wears Sean Lee pajamas. That is all." --sirjason22
"I'm gonna punch you in the ovary, that's what I'm gonna do. A straight shot. Right to the babymaker." --Ron Burgundy
by DarkKnight88 on Jan 29, 2012 3:31 PM CST up reply actions
I don't understand your logic
The Cowboys did an excellent job identifying guys in all rounds. This is most apparent in the late rounds, where some of their targets exceeded the expectation level of their draft positions. In particular, Kelvin Sheppard, Da’Norris Searcey and Eric Hagg outplayed pre-draft expectations.
Aaron Williams and Rahim Morris were bad
Bruce Carter and Martez Wilson didn’t see the field.
Where’s Mason Foster on this list? He started for Tampa Bay while Bruce Carter was warming the bench.
Where’s Brooks Reed on this list? He started at OLB most of the season for the Texans.
How is it many of the biggest 2-3rd disappointments are on this list, the best players are not, and this is still a good defensive scouting team?
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 27, 2012 6:47 PM CST reply actions
Bruce carter is a first round talent that has a torn acl
Patience young grasshopper
by matt575 on Jan 27, 2012 8:06 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Mason Foster wasn't a Dallas Day invitee, nor was Brooks Reed
by rabblerousr on Jan 27, 2012 10:22 PM CST up reply actions
Yes, that's what I am saying
Brooks Reed and Mason Foster were guys that contributed a lot their rookie seasons and Dallas did not invite them. They did invite guys like Bruce Carter and Martez Wilson, also linebackers, who have contributed nil. Same position, same draft range.
That would indicate they are not good at drafting defensive players.
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 27, 2012 10:28 PM CST up reply actions
PFF have Reed a 10.7, but Foster received a -20.7
not exactly a ringing endorsement…
by rabblerousr on Jan 27, 2012 10:35 PM CST up reply actions
All I'm saying is I see nothing in this data to indicate Dallas is good or bad at drafting defense
Only 9 players were able to log even a mere 100 snaps and 6 of those 9 had negative grades by PFF.
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 27, 2012 10:45 PM CST up reply actions
yea i agree that kinda had me stroke too
But i think the reason Dallas didnt look there way bc there was no need for them at the time.
Dallas view( stupidly) that their olb core was great and targeted ilb, cb, and de that draft..
This logic is stupid but it is how dallas operate we never draft BPA.. just BPA by need.. We will never look at drafting a legit qb until Romo retires.. We will not draft a legit olb unless dallas wish to cut ties with ware or spencer..
Dallas dont like stepping on players toes and creating true competion among there players. That is why this team always fold under pressure..
Bc these guys never had to fight crawl and scratch for their jobs… Their guranteed roster spots for 2-3 years if you was a top 150 pick regardless..
by lostar2009 on Jan 28, 2012 4:05 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Romo, Ratliff, Austin, Jenkins, Free
Are examples of guys who had to fight to become starters.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 28, 2012 5:18 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
free , Romo, Austin thrive bc of poor play at their postion..
Drew bledsole was wash up, Flozzell was too a long with injuries, RW was a scrub was a victim of Romo leaving him out to dry.. cough cough busted ribs.. i guess pay back is a mother..
But to be honest Free is not better than Flo at his prime, or Drew, or T.O.. If these guys was sitting under these guys at their prime they would have never became starters..
by lostar2009 on Jan 28, 2012 1:40 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
RWII
ran poor routes. He said it, Pearson said it, we saw it. No one but Williams hung himself out to dry.
Don't believe everything you think.
cmon guy ,... he may ran poor routes but that play was on romo
During the denver game he threw that ball way to high in a really bad area( where RW was going to get hit regardless) RW when up for the ball and he got busted up real bad..
Romo was also critize for that throw by analyst who watch the game too..
by lostar2009 on Jan 28, 2012 8:55 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
It was criticized by people who didn't know the play
none of us (outside the coaches and players) know how deep the route was supposed to go, where he was supposed to cut, etc. What other receiver with Dallas as that happened with? It really doesn’t. So either Romo made a throwing error (which happens to every QB in the league) or RWII ran a poor route. In either case, it’s not “Hanging someone out to dry” and was always a sad thing for people to comment on.
Don't believe everything you think.
o yea jenkins was slated to start as he was drafted.. He had to work for jack
by lostar2009 on Jan 28, 2012 1:43 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Jenkins had to beat out Scrandrick
He won the job after a few games in 2009.
For a yr and change he and Scandrick faught for the starting job.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 28, 2012 7:30 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
That was just some bs they put out there for Jenkins to play a little tuff..
Im like seriously.. If anything they toy with Scandrick mind giving him false hopes if being a starter.
by lostar2009 on Jan 28, 2012 8:58 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Lo you hit two grand slams here..
We will never look at drafting a legit qb until Romo retires
Jerry has no vision for the future. Dallas will be in the same boat as when Aikman left.
Their guranteed roster spots for 2-3 years if you was a top 150 pick regardless..
Dallas is a soft team. ^ This is one of the reason’s why.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Jan 28, 2012 6:31 AM CST up reply actions
to be fair, that was a Wade Phillips philosophy
He wouldn’t even cut players during the season because he felt like they “made the team”. I would like to think Jason Garrett will be different. See Murray starting over Felix. Felix lost his job due to performance. Bigg Davis and Gurode lost their jobs because their performance couldn’t justify the salary.
i thought felix lost his job due to injuries, no?
"Some people wear Superman pajamas, Superman wears Chuck Norris pajamas. But Chuck Norris wears Sean Lee pajamas. That is all." --sirjason22
"I'm gonna punch you in the ovary, that's what I'm gonna do. A straight shot. Right to the babymaker." --Ron Burgundy
by DarkKnight88 on Jan 29, 2012 3:39 PM CST up reply actions
lostar couldn't have said it any better
the culture needs to start with a clean slate & that always starts @ the top, Garrett will do the best with what he can work with.
"Some people wear Superman pajamas, Superman wears Chuck Norris pajamas. But Chuck Norris wears Sean Lee pajamas. That is all." --sirjason22
"I'm gonna punch you in the ovary, that's what I'm gonna do. A straight shot. Right to the babymaker." --Ron Burgundy
by DarkKnight88 on Jan 29, 2012 3:36 PM CST up reply actions
Reed is a good player. Of course his de's are 10 million times better than the Dallas de's.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Jan 28, 2012 9:18 AM CST up reply actions
You're way off-base.....
First, it’s completely misguided to say “hey, we didn’t invite player X for a predraft workout, our scouting sucks!”
You must have forgotten we didn’t bring in DeMarcus Ware to Valley Ranch before drafting him. There are times teams will have enough information on a player that they don’t bring them in for a looksie, especially when those invites are limited to begin with.
Secondly, the same sword swings both ways. If you want to make pre-draft invite list a point of contention, why don’t you laud the scouting department for giving invites to J.J. Watt, Quinton Carter, or Von Miller?
Third, taking a cursory look at other players and determining “hey, they haven’t done nil, or they suck, or they’re great” is far too simplistic. You’re acting as if every team has the same talent, same depth chart, same circumstances and same expectations, as a level playing ground to judge from. For example, the Rams might be more willing to throw a rookie linebacker into the wolves and go through rough spells, versus a more competitive team that trying to win now. That rookie LB for the Rams will likely rack up impressive stats as a simple result of more snaps. That doesn’t mean that rookie LB is a stud, it may just mean he played out of necessity.
Aaron Williams was a solid contributor as a part-time starting rookie (just nine games due to injury): 32 tackles, 5 PD, 1 INT, 1 FF
Martez Wilson played a larger contributing role for the Saints down the stretch and in the postseason.
Finally, it’s been one stinkin’ year. Are you telling me you’ve already determined who “sucks” and who’s “awesomest” based off of one year?
Two forks in my eye > Watching an Aubrey Huff at-bat in '11
by Phillyboijr on Jan 28, 2012 11:51 AM CST up reply actions
When I look at this list I certainly don't see proof the scouting department is good
There are 19 names on this list. Only 3 players played a mere 100 snaps and had a positive grade by PFF.
How can you look at a list, see only 3 players who were able to get any kind of playing time and not embarrass themselves, and conclude that the people who put together this list are great scouts?
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 28, 2012 3:54 PM CST up reply actions
A bit deranged...
So you’re being critical of rookies, including 5th, 6th and 7th rounders for not being able to get significant playing time straight out of college and those that did mostly “embarrassed” themselves.
That’s rich.
Secondly, it’s interesting how you’re not accounting for actual injuries and missed time due to injury. Instead, you’re simply looking at the raw stats and saying “meh, they suck, look at the stats.”
Who of the invites in the 1st round did the Cowboys miss out on? Von Miller….J.J. Watt?
Is your beef that we didn’t have any invites that went in the 7th round that weren’t studs in their rookie seasons?
C’mon mayne…
Two forks in my eye > Watching an Aubrey Huff at-bat in '11
I'll ask again
How can you look at a list, see only 3 players who were able to get any kind of playing time and not embarrass themselves, and conclude that the people who put together this list are great scouts?
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 28, 2012 11:15 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed
I think it’s a much better idea to compare stats of players 3 years into the league
by Tyrone Jenkins on Jan 29, 2012 10:47 AM CST up reply actions
If trent richardson is available at #14, which he very well may be
Do you think jerry could resist taking him? Would you be upset?
by matt575 on Jan 27, 2012 8:08 PM CST via mobile reply actions
We have so many needs
and RB is definitely not one. So yeah, I would be pissed if he is picked. It doesn’t make sense to draft him if he makes it to 14.
by BrickTop on Jan 27, 2012 8:11 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Unless they make a trade?
If they went after a RB that high they maybe trading F.Jones to get back into the first round again.
by tattooed cowboy on Jan 27, 2012 8:20 PM CST up reply actions
Felix jones wouldn't get u back in the first
Maybe 3rd
by Dynamicduo on Jan 27, 2012 8:22 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Maybe 5th
1 year left on his contract, outplayed by a 3rd rounder, long list of injuries, has missed significant time in 3 seasons.
Who would want Felix?
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 27, 2012 10:30 PM CST up reply actions
Trent Richarson at 14
I take him. And I trade FJ. I make Trent the feature back and use DM on kickoffs and as my scat/off speed back.
by Tyrone Jenkins on Jan 28, 2012 7:26 PM CST up reply actions
you know mike shanhan love his rbs.. maybe a 4 th???
Also jeff fisher is with the rams i know they was crazy about jones.. ill trade him to them..
by lostar2009 on Jan 28, 2012 4:10 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Felix would get you a bag of straws.
He is pretty much worthless at this point in regards to trade value.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Jan 28, 2012 6:33 AM CST up reply actions
we passed on ingram last year
and didn’t try trading back up til he fell past 30.
"Obviously, I felt like if I ran into my lineman there it was going to help the play" ~Tony Romo
I'll only be upset if the pick is michael brockers
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
why?
Sure he may be the next spears, but he could also be the next haloti ngata. You never know. You can’t grade a draft until 3-4 years down the line.
by matt575 on Jan 27, 2012 8:38 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Haloti Ngata is 6'4 350 and is a plugging NT; Brockers is a 300 lb run stuffing 3-4 DE. He's not a pass rusher
He’s a developmental project. I AM NOT THROWING AWAY THE #14 PICK ON A PROJECT PLAYER. i will givethis drsft an F if we take him in the first.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
Btw
Since 2003, I’ve graded the 2004, 2006, and 2009 drafts an F at the closing of all those drafts, and I’ve been proven right.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
So 2000-02 were sum very dark yrs
then u add 04,06,09 as failures of drafting, damn its no wonder this team hasn’t gotten over the hump btw i wouldn’t even give the 07 or 08 draft classes a B, maybe a C/C-.. The team needs more drafts like the past 2 yrs.
"Some people wear Superman pajamas, Superman wears Chuck Norris pajamas. But Chuck Norris wears Sean Lee pajamas. That is all." --sirjason22
"I'm gonna punch you in the ovary, that's what I'm gonna do. A straight shot. Right to the babymaker." --Ron Burgundy
by DarkKnight88 on Jan 29, 2012 3:49 PM CST up reply actions
Richardson would be a better pick than Brockers.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
not for us, it would be the very essence of stupid
Let’s go over team needs shall we? Does richardson start over Murray? How much of an upgrade is that. How good was Ingram with New Orleans? The offensive line and defensive line/secondary will be just as awful with Richardson in the lineup.
I think the secondary and both lines
will be improved in this year through draft and FA.
I will take Richardson if DeCastro is already gone. If DeCastro and Richardson are still on the board at 14, obviously you take DeCastro.
But like I said, if you take Richardson when DeCastro is already gone, you can come back and address CB, G/C, DL, FS/SS in rounds 2-5 and find impact players. I’ve already got guys in mind for those rounds.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 28, 2012 1:25 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
It's that mentality
That leads one to accept passing up on Steven Jackson, drafting Bobby Carpenter, passing up on LaMarr Woodley. But hey after all the draft is a crap shoot anyway, might as well just put on a blind fold and throw $h!1 at wall and see if it sticks.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 28, 2012 12:24 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Or 4 stud rb's for Felix Jones.....or any other player not named Martellus Bennett
or…….LOL. It ain’t hard.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Jan 28, 2012 6:43 AM CST up reply actions
but they aren't.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Jan 28, 2012 12:21 PM CST up reply actions
The fallacy argument of Ryan Leaf
He was never a sure thing among the scouts young child. Don’t parrot something that was a little before your teenage years.
ESPN and Mel Kiper drummed up the Ryan Leaf hype to creat some “drama” in whether or not Leaf “could” go number one. Manning was the more complete player coming out of college, had all the tools, and better accuracy. The only thing Leaf had going for him was a slightly bigger arm.
Leaf had a ton of emotional baggage, and didn’t interview well, this was public knowledge before the 1998 draft. He was a guy who needed time to develop.
Manning was an immediate starter the moment you drafted him, much like Andrew Luck is today. He passed every test, the metrics, and they eye test. Maybe he could’ve scored better on the wonderlic, but it would’ve shocked every sane person alive if Leaf went before him.
Yes, Tom Brady was a diamond in the ruff. The later rounds of the draft ARE are crapshoot.
However, with due dilligence in the analysis and projection of first round players to how they’ll fit your team or how your team can adjust to them (in some cases) you can separate the good picks from the bad ones.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 28, 2012 1:34 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
That's pretty harsh stuff from you, Roh
It’s not before my time and it was my impression too that Leaf was highly thought of. Whether it was media fabrication or not, the general football got the impression that the number one pick was a toss up between Manning and Leaf, and Leaf’s draft position certainly did nothing to dispel that.
Don't believe everything you think.
I remember the Ryan Leaf draft
Leaf had an excellent throwing motion and had good accuracy and arm strength. There was a fair amount of debate by many analysts about whether he or Peyton was better.
Peyton was the 1st pick due to a better interview w/ the Colts. I’m not sure what questions SD asked Leaf but they missed out on his immaturity and questionable decision making.
Fellas, there’s no way of telling who will be a bust or who will be a potential HoF player. Yet, some players are rated 1st round material and others are rated undrafted FA material. After reviewing the resumes and other intangible info gathered, most scouting departments get it right. Maybe a few think one guy is a 2nd rounder while others might say 3rd. Either way, there are few depts that really differ – other than the Raiders who are the exception.
Dallas will scout lots of players. They will hit on some and miss on others. The most important thing is that they HIT on the earlier round selections because they cost more and have higher upsides.
This year will be no different. Whether it’s Brockers, Upshaw, Richardson, Blackmon, Dennard, DeCastro or someone else, some of us will love the pick and others will hate it. I certainly have my preferences and have no problem admitting picks in the past that I hated that seem to be good ones (Lee and Murray). Overall, I’m glad to see the team improve itself.
Can you?
by Tyrone Jenkins on Jan 28, 2012 7:35 PM CST up reply actions
Leaf's accuracy was around 56% Manning's accuracy was 61%
The only thing Leaf had on Manning was a stronger arm.
Manning had Leaf on everything else.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 28, 2012 7:41 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Very true
but Leaf came from a PAC-20 school that was far more pass heavy then Tenn. Also, Leaf ran a more pass oriented pro style offense that was prolific. Make no mistake – Leaf was a VERY good college QB.
And, he could’ve been a good pro QB had it not been for his elitest attitude and poor work ethic. No one, and I mean no one, thought Leaf was a bad pick at #2 at the time.
by Tyrone Jenkins on Jan 28, 2012 8:04 PM CST up reply actions
Here's where I disagree with you
However if you watched Manning play at Tennessee, it was basically what he was doing at the Colts. It was a pro style offense. Leaf’s offense was a run and shoot offense, which was starting to get phased out of the NFL. Leaf faced easier defenses in the Pac10, than Manning did in the SEC.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 28, 2012 8:16 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Very true
But Leaf was still a good QB.
I’m not a Leaf homer by any means – actually, I didn’t really like the guy. But, I’m objective and call it like I see it.
Leaf was a #2 overall prospect drafted exactly where he should’ve been drafted given the information available pre-draft.
It’s not like he was thought of like JaMarcuss Russell.
But to the original point, let’s say the Boys draft Ingram. Or Upshaw. Or DreKirk. Or DeCastro. Or whoever. There will be some who hate the pick right up until the guy makes a TON of plays. I didn’t like the Lee pick – but I like it now. I didn’t like the DeMarco Murray pick – but I do now as well.
Will I like the 2012 1st pick – I don’t know yet. I just hope it’s as good as the recent past (Smith, Lee, etc.) has shown.
by Tyrone Jenkins on Jan 28, 2012 8:43 PM CST up reply actions
Can I what?
I was totally following you until then!
I agree. It’s a probability proposition. The better they do their homework, the better the odds of good results, but there will still be errors in judgment.
I also question Lee and Murray, so I already recognize my limitations and I trust the Cowboys staff a lot more than I do myself…
Don't believe everything you think.
Can you
be happy w/ the draft your team comes up with if it helps the team EVEN if it wasn’t the player(s) you wanted?
Every draft, you can go back and look at who was passed up and say “That guy had a better career than the guy we picked – we shouldn’t have passed on him” even though the guy we picked filled a need and at least was average…
Hindsight is almost always 20/20. A true fan can continue to maintain hope . . .
by Tyrone Jenkins on Jan 28, 2012 7:58 PM CST up reply actions
Dunkman
a) I wad talking to DCYanks21, we know eachother from another team’s blog.
b) It absolutely wasn’t a toss up as to whether or not Colts would take Manning or Leaf. They did their due dilligence and looked at both guys, but they had their minds made up by the combine.
c) The Chargers made Leaf the number 2 pick because they overpaid Arizona for their number 2 pick. Arizona already had Jake Plummer, they weren’t taking Leaf. The Chargers were the team desperate for a QB, they hired Gilbride to install the Run n Shoot offense which was similar to the offense Leaf ran at WSU, they liked his arm. However aside from having a big arm, he was not the total package that Manning was.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 28, 2012 7:38 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I just thought you sounded harsh with him
since you and he are great posters, I thought I’d say something.
I was just noting that the impression across fandom was that it was a toss-up. See Tyrone above. Not saying it should have been, but that’s how I also remember it.
Your analysis of course it correct. I’m just not sure a lot of people at the time got it.
Don't believe everything you think.
Ok, I see where you're coming from
Fair enough.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 28, 2012 8:18 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Tell that to the Portland Trailblazers
They passed on Michael Jordan for Sam Bowie, and then passed on Kevin Durant for Greg Oden. They passed on once in a generation players for Centers who break down more than a Ford on the side of the road.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 28, 2012 12:32 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
ford is actually the best built american car on the road right now, and the only one that didn't need a bail out.
Wrong
ford is actually the best built american car on the road right now
Fords are built in Mexico, and Assembled in Canada……
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Jan 28, 2012 8:21 AM CST up reply actions
My 2008 Honda Civic
Is more American than any Ford, GM, or Chrysler.
My car was built and assembled in Buffalo, NY. The only thing un-American about my car is the engine which was built in Japan.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 28, 2012 1:44 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Hum, my ford has a sticker saying built in VA.
Almost every Ford, Lincoln or Mercury you can buy from a dealership in the US is manufactured in North America. A few (Fusion/Milan/MKZ) in Hermosillo, Mexico; a few (Edge/MKX) in Oakville, Ontario, Canada; a few (Crown Vic/Grand Marquis/Town Car) in St Thomas, Ontario, Canada; and the rest in the US, including Kansas City (F-150/Escape/Mariner/Tribute), Lousiville (Explorer/SportTrac/SuperDuty), Dearborn (F-150/MarkLT), Wayne (Focus/Expedition/Navigator), Chicago (Taurus/TaurusX/Sable), Ohio (Econoline), Flat Rock (Mustang/Mazda6), Twin Cities (Ranger).
Americans don't know how to make cars.
Subaru all day every day. But even then, why are we still using such an inefficient engine and car design to begin with? Something to do with big auto/steel/oil lobbyist hmm…
"Obviously, I felt like if I ran into my lineman there it was going to help the play" ~Tony Romo
My new favorite 1st round pick is chandler jones
I tweeted him and asked him how long his wingspan is. He responded, “longer than my brother Jon”. Jon Jones, current undisputed light heavyweight UFC champion, has an "84.5 reach. Jason Pierre Paul has an "87 reach. It’s safe to assume that Chandler’s wingspan is at least "86 long. He’s 6’5 265 lbs, and will likely destroy the combine. Right now the discussions are ingram Jenkins or decastro. After the combine we will be discussing why we should trade up to get chandler Jones. I submit my pick for this year’s 1st round selection, and that selection is Chandler Jones.
by matt575 on Jan 27, 2012 11:30 PM CST via mobile reply actions
That's nice, but I'll pass
10 sacks in 33 career games at Syracuse. He has bust written all over him. Sorry to rain on the parade.
I don’t want a guy who couldn’t put it together in college.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 28, 2012 1:06 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
He's the 59th best player on CBS' Big Board
He’s not going to be a first round pick.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/TSX/2012?&start_row=51
NFL Draft Scout’s website has him pegged squarely in the second round.
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/probe.php?genpos=DE&draftyear=2012&sortorder=tsxpos&order=ASC
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 28, 2012 1:13 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Fine, I doubt we will take him in the first
But even if he doesn’t go in the first, one of the 12 teams ahead of us will take him before we’re on the clock in the 2nd. Past performance does not necessarily dictate future performance, I think right now he’s a long athletic ball of clay. I think under the tutelage of dware he could become our next dware
by matt575 on Jan 28, 2012 2:07 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
CBS' big board is a joke btw.
When Chandler Jones gets selected first round in April, you owe me a broham sandwich from Phil’s BBQ, slaw on the side.
by matt575 on Jan 29, 2012 6:54 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
No Big Boad atm is anything close to what it will be come draft time.
After the combine things will start to gel a lot more. Pre Senior Bowl it is extremely fluid.
Ok Ro name the 32 players who should be selected in the first round and won't bust.
tic toc tic toc tic toc……ya that’s what I thought.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Jan 28, 2012 6:39 AM CST up reply actions
I think his point is that production on the should count much more than measurables do
If you want to go strictly by measurables you’ll get raiders drafts
Mensa, be on the look out for a fanpost about this
in the coming days/weeks.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 28, 2012 1:41 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
See Mike Mamula and JaMarcus Russell as examples
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 28, 2012 1:39 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Who ought to be the Cowboys first round selection?
This quote says it all
.
stop the pass. anything that helps that. I wouldn’t be crazy about a 350 lb NT that can’t rush the passer for example
A guy like Dontari Poe who is 350 NT
would help pur pass defense out by collapsing a pocket from up the middle and allowing our ends and LB to do their jobs, as the QB wouldn’t be able to step up and have a clear line of sight.
"The tone is business," Garrett said. "Let's get to work. The Giants are going to be at the Meadowlands on Sunday at 4:15. They're an awfully good football team. We have to get ready for them."
by Rohpuri on Jan 28, 2012 1:47 PM CST via mobile up reply actions

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