The Anthony Spencer Challenge
by Kegbearer on Jan 5, 2012 5:03 PM CST
in Dallas Cowboys General
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Print"I am a true believer, Anthony Spencer will have seven or more sacks in 2011." This was the statement I made during the offseason and much to the delight of one BTB member, I was wrong. Almost Anthony, as many Cowboys fans have come to call him, managed only six sacks this season. Now, does that mean he is a terrible strong side linebacker?
I still believe Anthony Spencer is better than many other left outside linebackers in the league. Yes, I still have issues with his consistency. In some games he seems downright dominant, yet in others he makes mistakes and seems average. Yes, there were better first round picks the Cowboys could have made when they drafted Spencer, but was that his fault?
Believe it or not, after Sean Lee, Spencer is our best linebacker in coverage and Ryan often used him in that capacity. He is also one of the best Cowboys linebackers at stopping the run. Sure, that may be more of an indictment on how poor the Cowboys inside linebacker depth truly is, but it does reveal the true versatility of Anthony Spencer.
And yet, you will still see many Cowboys fans excited at the proposition of the Cowboys losing Spencer as he tests the free agent market this year. Some outright calling him terrible. And yet, whenever I ask a simple question it seems no one wishes to respond.
If Anthony Spencer is so terrible, how many LOLB in the league are better?
Well, seeing no one has ever answered that question for me I decided to do the leg work so we can compare.
It seems many fans are still confused about Spencer's role on this defense. Everyone would love to have two DeMarcus Wares rushing the passer, but too often forget that Spencer does not rush the passer as often as Ware. In fact, this season he rushed the passer less than in other years and still managed to tie his career best in sacks. Spencer is often tasked with containment duties, making sure that if the play is a run that he does not allow the back to get around the edge. You will also often see him covering backs and tight ends in the flat. In fact, in Ryan's defense you would even find Spencer standing up in front of the slot receiver. In most 3-4 defenses the left outside linebacker does not get to tee off as a pass rusher as often as the right outside linebacker or a 4-3 defensive end.
Let's first begin with taking a look at how Anthony Spencer did compared to other Cowboys defenders. He was fourth on the team in total tackles, second in sacks, and led the team in forced fumbles. Not too shabby. Only Sean Lee and the two safeties had more total tackles than Spencer, but if the Cowboys secondary wasn't so putrid, it would likely mean that Spencer would be second in total tackles and likely would have accrued a few more sacks. But let's get on to the comparison with other LOLB around the league.
All stats from NFL.com except QB Hits and TFL which are from Advanced NFL stats
| Player | Team | Total Tkls | Sacks | Fum Frd | QB Hit | TFL |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| A. Spencer | DAL | 66 | 6 | 4 | 15 | 12 |
| R. Kerrigan | WAS | 63 | 7.5 | 4 | 12 | 9 |
| J. Houston | KC | 56 | 5.5 | 1 | 9 | 10 |
| C. Matthews | GB | 50 | 6 | 3 | 22 | 8 |
| A. Brooks | SF | 49 | 7 | 1 | 13 | 12 |
| C. Haggans | ARI | 46 | 3 | 1 | 9 | 5 |
| B. Reed | HOU | 45 | 6 | 0 | 11 | 7 |
| S. Phillips | SD | 42 | 3.5 | 0 | 6 | 8 |
| C. Kelsay | BUF | 41 | 5 | 2 | 6 | 3 |
| L. Woodley | PIT | 39 | 9 | 0 | 13 | 10 |
| J. Westerman | NYJ | 32 | 3.5 | 1 | 7 | 6 |
| J. Taylor | MIA | 18 | 7 | 1 | 15 | 5 |
So, how many LOLB in 3-4 defenses around the league are better than Anthony Spencer? The answer is not many. Clay Matthews is actually the best OLB on his team and plays more like a ROLB though they play him on the strong side. Perhaps we should be comparing Ware and Matthews, and if that is the case Anthony Spencer is far better than anyone else the Packers line up at OLB. Even so, Spencer had as many sacks as Clay Matthews, more tackles, and forced more fumbles.
The only player that seem he could become far better, and should likely be considered one of the best LOLB in the league, is Ryan Kerrigan. The Redskins seem to have gotten great value with that draft pick. While Lamaar Woodley had quite a few sacks more than Spencer, it is clear he is primarily used as a pass rusher since he has almost half as many tackles as Spencer, and no forced fumbles.
So I ask again, is Anthony Spencer really as bad as people think? How many LOLB in the league are better?
Anthony Spencer led all LOLB in tackles, forced fumbles, and tackles for a loss. He was Top 5 in sacks and tied for second in QB hits.
Perhaps Cowboys fans should not be so quick to cheer the loss of Anthony Spencer from this defense. This team needs to upgrade other positions far more than LOLB if Spencer is re-signed. And yes, I am still a true believer.
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Too many times
I’ve watched Spencer just miss the sack as opposing quarterback chucked the ball downfield for a big gain or TD. Almost Anthony, indeed.
Though you have a valid argument here. And the secondary could have done their jobs better in those cases as well.
Not an easy call, for sure.
Knowing is half the battle. http://deartracyp.blogspot.com
by Captain Grid Iron on Jan 5, 2012 5:09 PM CST reply actions
Good article Kegbear...
This does shed some light on Anthony Spencer. Maybe if we got a better DE on his side or Ware’s side, it would increase his sacks.
F**** establishing a culture, we need to establish dominance...
I've been saying this a while
the Boys need a better LDE. Spencer was supposed to be THAT guy for Tuna but he never materialized. There are far more DEs in the draft that are better than Spencer than there are OLBs better than Spencer. Someone on the level of JJ Watt.
Either that, or move to the 4-3 (not sure if Ryan’s scheme will work wit that).
by Tyrone Jenkins on Jan 5, 2012 10:39 PM CST up reply actions
Lol
I think that we are supposed to infer “spears”… but be careful more of this and you will be giving tan a run for his money..
by TheCowboyWay on Jan 5, 2012 10:45 PM CST up reply actions
Ah yes,
Thanks – slipped up on that one.
Spears for LDE.
by Tyrone Jenkins on Jan 5, 2012 10:47 PM CST up reply actions
I would like to know what his initial assignment was on those "almost" plays.
Was he coming at the QB at the snap? Or did he come at the passer after he had taken care of another assignment, like making sure it wasn’t a run on a play action, or releasing a reciver to someone else in coverage? I think that would make a great deal of difference.
Nonetheless, I sometime feel this is Keg’s personal windmill to tilt at. Almost no one (see what I did there?) thinks Spencer is worth a tinker’s dam, and nothing is going to convince them otherwise.
But the only people whose opinion matters are named Jones, Garrett, Ryan and Eberflus. So let’s see what they decide.
Formerly Pineywoods - different name, same cockeyed view of the world.
Jason Garrett - Lord of Order
Rob Ryan - Lord of Chaos
+1
I would like to know what his initial assignment was on those “almost” plays.
Too often people forget that Spencer may rush the passer, but not as his prime assignment. You will also notice that he sometimes acts like he is rushing the passer, but if he doesn’t get around cleanly he will stop and make sure he seals the edge.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
OK
Too often people forget that Spencer may rush the passer, but not as his prime assignment. You will also notice that he sometimes acts like he is rushing the passer, but if he doesn’t get around cleanly he will stop and make sure he seals the edge.
Considering the poor pass defense perhaps rushing the passer should be his prime, numero uno, no questions asked, assignment.
by firejasongarrett on Jan 5, 2012 8:02 PM CST up reply actions
yeah thats great
but if your 3-4 OLB’s aren’t generating pressure and sacks, then your 3-4 is a failure
people make him sound like he is the Suh against the run, he isn’t
if he was soooooo good at stopping the run, he would still be a failure here
we need pressure and sacks, I will take an average run defender and the good pass rusher any day
I am tired of hearing of how he is sooooo good against the run, wow if thats the only thing you can say about a PASS RUSHER, that is sad
I constantly see him miss the play, miss tackles, not contain his assignment and over pursue, he gets sucked in on play fakes reverses and misdirections
great, we spent a first round pick on a run defending pass rusher for 3-4 OLB, a position where you need some sort of pass rush to be successful
awesome
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 5, 2012 8:06 PM CST up reply actions
NO player is perfect
Ware misses tackles, sacks and RBs as well. Not to mention, he’s good for a drive extending off-sides or RTP penalty ever other game or so.
All too often, Boys’ fans expect every player to be perfect. No one in the draft is better than Spencer IMO. Now, a drafted OLB may be an advantage as they most certainly would be “fresher” and cheaper. But, I think the Boys would be hard pressed to find someone who’s exceedingly better.
by Tyrone Jenkins on Jan 5, 2012 10:42 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry but I expect a lot more that 8-8 and one playoff win in 15 years
It’s hard to say that we expect too much. We haven’t gotten $#!* lately
yeah well Ware had like almost 20 sacks
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 6, 2012 1:08 AM CST up reply actions
Why? There were four OLBs taken last year that I would rather have than Spencer right now.
Miller, Smith, Kerrigan, and Houston (started slowly, but 5.5 sacks in the last 5 games) all look to have brighter futures than Spencer. I think we could definitely replace his production without breaking much of a sweat.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
well, then make your choice:
option 1: Anthony Spencer and Tyron Smith
option 2: Kerrigan and Colombo*
* i’m writing Colombo in here because i keep the 2/40 pick, Bruce Carter, untouched. otherwise it would be Spencer-Smith-Carter versus Kerrigan-Carimi/Sherrod-Bradie James
i, for one, list keeping the QB upright a higher priority, plus Smith is considered probably the best rookie tackle by being roguhly two years everyone’s junior, thus he offers a longer-term solution for the team.
by slowmotion80 on Jan 6, 2012 5:44 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Well I actually agree.
Last year I considered OT a bigger need because of how bad Colombo was. Smith got my stamp of approval. I didn’t agree with Kerrigan, although I would have loved to get Justin Houston in the 2nd or 3rd round.
This year, I see no position that is as urgent as tackle was last year and OLB, with Spencer becoming a FA hopefully, can’t be ignored.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
I agree
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 6, 2012 10:47 AM CST up reply actions
I Almost agree with you...
There are a few reasons we see AA miss a QB. One of the main reasons is that our D-Line cannot collapse the pocket, which gives the QB room to step up into a safe zone. Two he does over pursue. Three our secondary is terrible.
I would also like to point out that I doubt you would make your run stuffing comments if AA were allowing 4+ YAC. If AA leaves this run D would drop 5+ rankings next year!
"Fear the Star" -A WISE Man!
by mho on Jan 6, 2012 12:16 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
And You Continue to miss the point
You are so busy considering Spencer a passrusher, you fail to recognize he’s not just a passrusher, he’s an OLB. Believe it or not, OLBs are more then just passrushers. They drop into coverage, seal the edges, and stop the run as well. Not every guy is Demarcus Ware who can do it all (otherwise Ware wouldn’t be so special). Spencer isn’t the best passrusher and you’re not going to see anyone argue that point. But, you can have the greatest passrusher in the world and it won’t mean a thing if he gets run over in the run game.
The major point is, you’re not going to find much of an upgrade over Spencer. You may find someone slightly better, but very few downright better. Spending a first round pick or a big-time FA would be a waste when considering the difference in production we’d get from a CB or OG with that same pick or that same FA contract.
by inwittenitrust on Jan 6, 2012 9:44 AM CST up reply actions
Have to agree
Both OLBs in a 3-4 don’t rush all the time; strongside usually drops into coverage, which is why usually Ware is on the weak side of the offensive formation. When Ware doesn’t rush, he drops into coverage.
Same with Spencer, except he usually drops into coverage. He’s not primarily a pass rusher, so why should his success or lack thereof in that category be the sole determining factor of his effectiveness?
Ok, 120-120 in fifteen years is pretty mediocre.
he doesn't rush the pass as much bc they know he lacks the ability.
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
I'm not a big X's and O's guy, but doesn't the strong OLB cover the TE?
The SOLB doesn’t rush as much because he is covering the TE, not because he lacks the ability.
And I’m not even defending Spencer, just pointing it out.
I guess it is all what you value in a player.
Sure, Spencer is good against the run. I’m so pleased. Too bad the league isn’t a running league any more. You need to stop QBs to win in this league, and as such, I will value pass-rushing ability way over anything else in an OLB.
Let me ask another question, is there a great pass-rushing OLB in the league who you feel is a huge liability in the running games? Or coverage?
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
Look, you can wish to get rid of Spencer all you want. I don't care.
Let me ask you a question. When you walk into a bar and several people are sitting around shooting the breeze about football, do you jump in the face of the first person who says something you disagree with and go all sarcasm? Ask them irrelevant questions as if that proves a point? Using “straw man” fallacies? I highly doubt it.
No, I don’t have “a great pass-rushing OLB” in mind who is “a huge liability in the running game.” That’s nowhere in the vicinity of the comment I made in relation to someone else’s take on the subject.
If you read the comment, it was regarding the schematic responsibilities of the strong side OLB, not the potential abilities of some one else on some other team.
Ok, 120-120 in fifteen years is pretty mediocre.
i'd take my chances on a draft pick & spread that money around used to resign him.
theres OLBs coming out of the draft that are just as good on worse teams.
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
Once again, in the first three rounds last year, there were 4 OLBs taken I would take hands down over Spencer at this very moment.
And that isn’t even getting into the cost considerations.
No question we can upgrade at #14. For whatever it’s worth, Ware was taken at #11.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
Guess it is time to break out a RR quote earlier this year again.
Tim MacMahon (ESPNDallas): Maybe in some situations, but I can’t see that happening on a regular basis. Ryan looks at you like you’re stupid when you suggest that Spencer has been a disappointment.
+1
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
Guess it is time to break out a quote from Anthony Spencer from earlier this year again.
"You can’t mail days in in this league, and I definitely found I was doing that last year."
Guess it is time to break out a RR quote earlier this year again.
Rob Ryan: Aaaaw, maaan!! This guy is getting better every week. He’s really stepping into his own I think. I wasn’t here when everybody said he had the six sacks in six weeks or whatever the thing was. I know the guy is improving every day, he works his ass off, this guy is really going to be special.
I think he can get better and he is improving. He’s played the run historically well and he’s playing it better this year. And on his pass rush, he’s working the angles, he works with Leon Lett and [D-line coach Brian] Baker and sometimes Charles [Haley] comes out. It helps him. His angles are better rushing the passer, and you’re going to see a dynamic rusher. I think it’s going to show up this week. I really believe all his hard work is going to pay off. He’s going to jump off and everybody’ll be like, ’Wow! Where did this production come from?’ Well, it’s coming and it’s coming fast.
For God and country - Geronimo
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Jan 5, 2012 11:29 PM CST up reply actions
or these Jason Garrett quotes on Spencer …
On whether there had been some disappointment with Anthony Spencer not being able to help back up DeMarcus Ware and whether Coach Garrett is comfortable that Spencer is ready to break out:
“(Anthony Spencer) Spence has been a strong contributor opposite DeMarcus Ware. I think that if you ask teams around the league, I know if you ask coaches around the league, they have an issue every week with our outside linebackers. It’s a pretty simple thing in the NFL to say there’s a great rusher over here, we’re going to turn the whole line over there; we’re going to put a tight end over there. But when you have two guys who can make it difficult for either offensive tackles, or tight ends, or (running)backs to block them, it really becomes a problem. At different times Spence has been more productive than at other times. Some of that probably has to do with the attention that he’s gotten opposite DeMarcus. You guys know the issues when you have two elite rushers outside and you have number 90 (Jay Ratliff) playing nose tackle for you they can’t turn and double and do all of that stuff to all of them. We feel like the combination of those three guys is good. We feel like each of those guys can get better individually and hopefully help us get better collectively.”
On whether he thinks Anthony Spencer is an elite pass rusher:
“Not really for me to decide about elite pass rushers. We need to live in the world of Spence needs to get better today in practice. He’s certainly a guy that teams know can be a very good pass rusher, has been that in the past, has been a guy when he’s not making sacks is pushing the pocket and pressuring quarterbacks. He, like our whole football team, needs to do that on a more consistent basis.”
For God and country - Geronimo
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Jan 5, 2012 11:33 PM CST up reply actions
To the Captain
I’ve watched Spencer just miss the sack as opposing quarterback chucked the ball downfield for a big gain or TD.
As you noted:
the secondary could have done their jobs better in those cases as well.
I would say that this is more of an issue than Anthony Spencer
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Jan 5, 2012 6:49 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I honestly don’t even want to know the number of times QBs (especially Eli) just chucked a prayer downfield to avoid the sack only for no CB to be near the receiver or able to make a play on the ball and it ends up as a completion. Get some secondary players who make enough plays or plays close enough coverage to make the QB hesitate on throwing the prayer and suddenly our sack numbers increase.
by inwittenitrust on Jan 6, 2012 9:50 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah
This is a pretty good point. Newman’s the type of player that you can just throw at whoever he’s covering and have a pretty good chance to get a completion.
someone should tell the Steelers they have the wrong formula for defense bc they dont care about CBs.
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
and guess what DC
you can beat the Steelers D by doing what we did tho the Giants in the second Half.. Quick passes, which those Steeler corners have an issue with…
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Jan 6, 2012 4:19 PM CST up reply actions
They don't have a single CB on that team that's anywhere near as bad as Newman.
Newman was straight terrible, I’m not saying don’t have a good pass rush or anything I’m saying that when your corners are as bad as Newman that’s probably a bigger concern than upgrading an average pass rush.
Someone should inform the Steelers they had fewer sacks than the Cowboys
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
so the Jets have the ideal defense with thos great CBs & lack of pass rush?
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
Didn't say that either, but way to put words into my mouth.
The 49ers seem to have a good mix. And the Jets only have one great CB. If the Jets had Revis and Leon Hall see what happens.
Great article
Did not realize this about Spencer.
The only thing that bothers me is he does not play containment very well.
He rushes upfield and they run right by him.
Would love to see Spencer on some blitzes up the middle.
Having second thoughts about him.
Is it possible to move him inside?
Happens to ware all the time as well.
It’s the purpose of EVERY draw play.
Newman is Bad!
by Feeling Blue & Silver on Jan 5, 2012 5:35 PM CST up reply actions
This is where MLB are supposed to clog the lanes
and Lee cannot cover all the holes….Carter will be a huge upgrade next year
by BWAREofDWARE94 on Jan 5, 2012 6:49 PM CST up reply actions
Ware is MUCH worse about that
If you want to know where containment breaks down because of rushing upfield too hard, you need to look at the other side of the line. One thing Rob is going to have to do in the offseason is figure out a way to close the gap between the DE and OLB when Ware speedrushes upfield. Can’t tell you how many times I saw a RB draw right through that gap for a huge gain.
by inwittenitrust on Jan 6, 2012 9:52 AM CST up reply actions
I have to ask
If he is a good cover backer and so good in the run game why not move him inside???
Then you can get a good pass rusher to go with Were.
He is a good in coverage as an OLB. I would not trust him in middle zone coverage or man coverage as an ILB. I think he is fine just were he is as a strong OLB.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
one
one pass defensed
That is tied for 109th place for all LB’s according to advanced NFL stats.
Honestly i cannot remember a single good play in coverage he has ever made
by firejasongarrett on Jan 5, 2012 7:59 PM CST up reply actions
Think Nnamdi Asomghua
Obviously not the same talent level, but Asomghua doesn’t make a ton of plays on the ball either, yet is considered a top CB. Why? Cuz he doesn’t give plays up. While you’re thinking of plays Spencer is making in coverage, also think of plays he’s giving up in coverage…I think you’ll have just as difficult of a time coming up with examples.
by inwittenitrust on Jan 6, 2012 9:53 AM CST up reply actions
Well...
Advanced NFL stats’ database is a bit off. They use different ways to evaluate talent. FO had him as the 4th best coverage LB last year as far as his stop rate went.
hopefully some other team over pays for his services lol.
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
So what do you do with Spencer? Do you think Ryan can not generate more from Spencer than he could from the stiffs in Cleveland?
If he can turn Gocong into a probowler I have faith he can do the same with Spencer.
-by BigDinLA on Feb 9, 2011 8:07 AM PST up reply actions
Kamerion Wimbley had 4.0 and 6.5 sacks in Ryan’s scheme.
He went to Oakland and had 9.0. So I’m not sure that the logic that Rob Ryan’s scheme going to make Spencer better is bulletproof.
Do you gamble? Would you be interested in setting an over/under on Spencer’s sack total?
-by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 9, 2011 10:24 AM PST up reply actions
Because Wimberly is a 4-3 DE not a 3-4 LB. That is a different situation.
-by BigDinLA on Feb 9, 2011 11:35 AM PST up reply actions
Like I said, do you gamble?
I find that people get realistic real fast when they have to put their money at risk. ‘Ryan is going to generate more from Spencer" turns into ’Um, I’d put actual money on Spencer having more than 4 sacks’ real fast.
But if you truly believe Ryan is going to get more from Spencer … that Spencer is going to get more than 7 sacks for example, let me know … I’ll bet against that.
-by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 9, 2011 1:56 PM PST up reply actions
Spencer
He had 5 sacks this year and 6 sacks last year (but was "almost" there a lot more times). While I won’t bet over the internet, assuming Spencer is the starting OLB I would bet he gets 7 sacks or more in Rob Ryan’s defense.
-by Kegbearer on Feb 9, 2011 2:11 PM PST up reply actions
why not? $100 on it.
7.5 you win. 6.5 I win. No qualifier ‘if Spencer is the starting OLB’. I’m okay with a trade/cut caveat but if he doesn’t get sacks bc Butler takes his spot you ought to lose. Or do you want to see what happens with the draft first?
I’m good for it … you could troll all my posts and say I’m a cheater if I didn’t honor it .. I promise not letting you do that is worth $100 to me.
-by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 9, 2011 2:24 PM PST up reply actions
Biggest worry/caveat would be with the draft and Quinn being the pick and becoming the starter. I do think Butler will get more reps and hurt Spencer’s chance for 7+ sacks, but I also think we’ll see some formations from Rob Ryan that will have Ware, Spencer and Butler rushing the passer.
I also don’t bet over internet and worry about money transactions and lack of a handshake. I’ll be happy to make a friendly/gentleman’s bet about it with "I told you so" rights and "Yes, you were right" responses in future posts/replies.
-by Kegbearer on Feb 9, 2011 4:00 PM PST up reply actions
btw, I think it’s pretty ironic that in a post about how you were wrong you take to time to say how confused everyone else is.
It seems many fans are still confused about Spencer’s role on this defense.
Maybe you’re the one who’s confused. I understand exactly what’s up with #93.
For God and country - Geronimo
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Jan 5, 2012 5:22 PM CST reply actions
yes you were right
But yes, people are still confused with Spencer’s role in this defense. Thinking he would get 7 or more sacks doesn’t change that.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
btw, I’d put Spencer towards the bottom of that chart.
Clay Matthews and Woodley are obvious.
Brooks Reeds only played part of the season (after Mario Williams was injured)
Jayson Taylor only played passing downs, he split time with Koa Misi.
Ahmad Brooks is probably better than Spencer.
Shaun Phillips had a down year, but like Matthews he’s managed double digit sack totals.
Houston was a rookie and was close to the stats.
So Spencer seems like he’s in the Haggans, Kelsay, Westerman range.
i know, we just don’t appreciate his run stopping. Maybe he can move to NT.
For God and country - Geronimo
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Jan 5, 2012 5:35 PM CST up reply actions
Bottom of that chart?!
Ok, feel free to think that. But clearly his stats say otherwise.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
In other words, I think context illuminates much of the problems some of us have with Spencer.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
Woah for a stats man...
you sure excused A LOT of stats in this reply…lol
Newman is Bad!
by Feeling Blue & Silver on Jan 5, 2012 5:37 PM CST up reply actions
he compared Spencer to a bunch of guys who didn’t play the whole season.
Woodley, Phillips, Taylor, Reed.
I don’t need to look up the stats. I know Clay Matthews is better than Anthony Spencer.
For God and country - Geronimo
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Jan 5, 2012 5:42 PM CST up reply actions
I would take Reed and Phillips over Spencer any day
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 5, 2012 7:40 PM CST up reply actions
I think Phillips especially is more of the “shiny new toy” syndrome.
are you saying Spencer > Shaun Phillips?
http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/5623/shaun-phillips
For God and country - Geronimo
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Jan 6, 2012 8:03 AM CST up reply actions
Stats are only used to explain why he thinks he knows everything...
Clearly he doesn’t like Spencer and since the stats don’t back him up, then he will just go to objective opinion.
I’d expect nothing less from that dude. What a joker, that FiTaT.
What stats don't back him up?
Spencer had 6 six sacks, 2 of which came when he simply tackled a guy while in coverage.
And this meme that Spencer doesn’t rush the passer that much is absolute baloney. Through 11 games, Spencer had rushed the passer 73 snaps less than Demarcus Ware. That is a little short of seven snaps per game difference.
So, since we really want to examine the idea of pass rushing here. Let’s look at it this way. Anthony Spencer got 4 sacks when he was arguably rushing the passer as his assignment. Let’s similarly discount D-Ware and assume he got 16 sacks while rushing the passer (although I can’t remember a single one). Now, let’s assume the pace through 11 games held up for the whole season. That would mean that in around 100 less pass rushing opportunities, Spencer got 1/4 of the sacks of D-Ware. Calculating the percentages (once again assuming the rate of use stayed constant for five more games), D-Ware got a sack 3% of the time he rushed the passer. Spencer got a sack less than 1% of the times he rushed the passer (.97% if you care).
That means that roughly speaking, D-Ware produced three times as much in pass rushing situations (sacks wise) compared to Spencer. This is despite the fact that D-Ware faced a ton of chips and double-teams as he was being deliberately game-planned around. That’s just bad. There is no other way to say it. I think Butler could outproduce that significantly and that is what OCC’s article showed as well. Could he stop the run as well? Probably not. But when looking at our team, it is clear that Ware is going to start declining soon (19.5 sacks is superhuman). Knowing this, you really want to lock up Anthony Spencer for five more years as a sub-par pass rusher? No thanks.
P.S. It’s funny to me that so many on here have applauded how Jason Garrett has seemingly set a different tone for this organization in the sense that “loyalty” contracts would no longer be handed out. Or at least, it’s funny to me when I read a post like this that smacks of the same loyalty that leads to us handing out those exact types of contracts.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
* should be comma and then let's look at it this way
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
Also, I should have mentioned this, but I got the 11 games data from a previous OCC article.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
That's a lot of convoluted number crunching to address a situation that's convoluted in very different ways.
by Admiral Dallas on Jan 5, 2012 9:06 PM CST up reply actions
Really?
I took an estimated number of their pass rushing sacks (Anthony discounted 2 based off of clear memory, Ware discounted 3.5 for examination purposes) and then divided that by their approximate pass rushing snap numbers (assuming the 11 game pace stayed constant). Really not too difficult.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
There is more to LOLB than sacks
Also, where did you get pass rush attempts?
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
Got it from an OCC post done on November 25th.
I don’t know where to look for the full season numbers, so I simply extrapolated out the pass rush snaps per game to a sixteen game season to get their approximate pass rush totals for the year. Definitely imperfect, but that’s the best way I could do it.
And sure, OLB is more than just rushing the passer. However, not only do I think stopping the pass is the most important aspect of modern defense, but I would argue that this team’s construction necessitates more pass-rushers at every position. Ware accounts for almost half our sacks. He is unlikely to be this good for a lot longer. If we don’t go to great lengths to improve our pass rush soon it will dry up quite fast. Resigning Anthony Spencer almost guarantees our pass rush won’t improve from that position.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
73 pass rushes is quite a few.
Most QBs attempt what? 40 passes a game? That’s basically two whole days of passing.
Well it's also just about seven pass rush opportunities per game.
In total, it means that Spencer was rushing about 3/4 of the time the QB dropped back to pass against Dallas.
Now, if you want to use that to pump up his numbers than feel free to do so. Just understand that it is then fair for me to say that at least two of his sacks were gained while he was in coverage (although I would say it anyways haha). That would mean he only got 4 sacks in all of his pass rush attempts. Any way you slice it, that’s not good.
When put into further context, that’s about one sack every 100 pass rush attempts. Through 11 games, Jason Hatcher had 3 sacks in 161 pass rush attempts (once again, this number comes from an OCC post). I just don’t see how you can look at these numbers and conclude that Spencer is anything but a mediocre to straight up bad pass rusher.
At some point, you have to do more than simply get near the QB. I think this is especially obvious if you look at what the reaction to Spencer’s brief uptick in 2009. All of a sudden, he was garnering universal praise because at the end of the day, sacks represent a higher tier of respect in the pass rushing hierarchy. This seems obvious, and yet we keep getting platitudes about how Spencer didn’t rush the passer that much and should be given a break as such.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
Yes seven per game adds up to a lot over the course of a whole season.
A few extra rushes and he may have picked up that 7th sack everyone here gets so worried about. Honestly, I think they can do better, but I think that Spencer’s the least of their concerns. Aside from Newman it’s probably upgrading over Elam or getting a player instead of Jenkins that can play every game or at the very least 14 of them. Then I’d say Brooking/Bradie and probably getting some consistency along the DL. Sensabaugh and Spencer are perfectly fine players, you can do better but there’s no defense in the league where every player Sensabaugh or Spears would be the worst player on it. Every advanced analysis of Spencer’s game suggest that he’s an average pass rusher at worst. He excels in other areas of his game which suggests that he’s an above average player.
I agree with the needs you list, but look at it this way:
CB: Easiest to address in FA and mid-rounds of the draft
S: No first round caliber guy
ILB: Drafted Bruce Carter last year
DL: Possible first round selection but I like the OLB crop better
All in all, I think OLB makes the most sense in the first round. I think by doing so we can absolutely upgrade over Spencer and possibly give us a guy to rush the passer as Ware declines.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
Now you're confusing me
If he’s rushing 7 times per game, how can that be 3/4s of the passing attempts? You’re saying teams only throw 10 passes a game against us?
If teams throw 28 passes against us, he’s rushing 25% of the time.
Ok, 120-120 in fifteen years is pretty mediocre.
If he is in coverage on the TE on 14 of those 28 pass plays, and rushes on 7 of the other 14 passes then it's 50% of the time he's not covering.
What’s the point?
What's your point?
I was responding to Creasy saying that 7 pass rushes per game was 75% of opponents’ passing attempts. It’s not. It’s 25% of opponents’ PA. In that case it seems pretty clear he’s not going to get as many sacks as someone who rushes 75% of an opponents’ PA.
As to your comment, if he’s in coverage 14 of 28 pass plays, rushes 7, then what do you think he’s doing the other 7?
Ok, 120-120 in fifteen years is pretty mediocre.
That was a mistype on my part.
He rushes about 7 times less per game than Ware. And that 3/4 absolute number is an approximate based off the approximate pass rush numbers for Spencer (11 game pace extrapolated to 16) compared to the total number of drop backs against Dallas (attempts + Dallas sacks).
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
A lot of hate for Spencer has been spewing out lately with no actual statistical backup!
Tell me he almost made the sack on Vick… I believe I can point out where Ware almost made the sack on Vick…. He almost made the sack on Eli… yea I’m sure that happened to Ware too… I believe Ware was holding on to Eli’s leg when he threw it to Victor Cruz over the middle for 40 something yards. I could be wrong about it and I would have to go back and review the Giants game which I don’t want to do. So if I’m not right then so be it. I’m just saying that if you sit here and nit pick one play where he missed the guy I can show you 3 where he didn’t.
Another thing TFL’s and Sacks are both loss of yardage and downs… the difference is some where against running backs. I remember Spencer getting a couple of those more then 5+ yds also. That would be 18 tackles behind the LOS… add up any other LOLB… Woodly and Brooks had 19, Kerrigan 16.5, Houston 15.5 respectively. The others weren’t even near as close.
RexP
So Spencer is barely better than two rookies?
That’s your argument. That makes me want to draft a guy even more. If we can expect similar production in a guy’s first year, why hold on to Spencer?
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
My biggest issue with trying to replace him this year is "wasting" that 1st rounder spot.
It isn’t a good year for pass rushers in the draft. Yes, I think we need one, but we also need a couple CB’s, a G or 2 and a C possibly, depending on how our young guys are doing.
Pass rushers tend to go very fast on draft day, if a good one falls to us, snap him up, but don’t push someone who probably won’t be better than what we already have and neglect another position of need who has a better talent sitting there.
by Rena on Jan 6, 2012 4:27 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
you know players in the draft from rounds 2-7 can become very productive.
you don’t need a stud #1 draft pick to replace what Spencers capable of.
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
Well I would say that the crop isn't as weak as it might appear.
Ingram, Perry, Montgomery, Mercilus and Upshaw all have first-round prospects (although Montgomery still has to declare I believe). Bruce Irvin could also be in that mix. For whatever it’s worth, Melvin Ingram is listed as CBSSports #14 prospect overall.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
why on earth dont you have a job writing on the front page?
you do great work researching & putting things into context. i love reading things writers dont need to spin to support there work or atleast putting the effort in to give more accurate information.
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
I've always been reluctant to criticize Spencer because I think he's a decent football player.
The problem is that most expect more from a first round draft choice, most expect more from him because D Ware is the OLB drawing all the double teams, and most expect more because he replaced Ellis, who in retrospect was a damn good football player.
My biggest fear is dumping him and getting a replacement who will make us pine for dear old “Almost Anthony”.
Wish you were here and comfortably numb.
The fact that Ryan had him in coverage more than I expected is likely due to the poor ILB depth the Cowboys have.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
+1
And I think he will. However, I would much rather the cowboys sign another ILB for depth than trying to replace Spencer.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
Yeah, they need some depth there.
That’s a reason I kinda want Bradie back on the cheap. If there’s a team that will pay him like a starter, you obviously pass, but if he’s cheap, why not? I can’t think of many other back up LBs.
how about a guy like Bart Scott?
As a backup that is. Word is that he’s going to get released.
We're here to win football games. The way to do that is to tell him and to get on him at the right times. I do that when you guys (media) don't see and watch.''
What else makes a strong leader?
"You win,'' Romo said. "You're a very good leader once you win.
"That's' what we're going to do.''
Ugh
If that asshole’s on the team I might have to go root for the Giants. But yes, he’s as good as gone.
see ya on bbi then
our defense needs an asshole like him.
We're here to win football games. The way to do that is to tell him and to get on him at the right times. I do that when you guys (media) don't see and watch.''
What else makes a strong leader?
"You win,'' Romo said. "You're a very good leader once you win.
"That's' what we're going to do.''
yep
two guys i would love to have on this team. I don’t give a crap if people think they are assholes. I like for my defense’s to have guys that would smack your mom. Look, i just think a mean attitude is something this team has lacked for years.
Guys like Haley, Randy White, hell even James Washington.
We're here to win football games. The way to do that is to tell him and to get on him at the right times. I do that when you guys (media) don't see and watch.''
What else makes a strong leader?
"You win,'' Romo said. "You're a very good leader once you win.
"That's' what we're going to do.''
Ehhh...
Attitude is different than telling someone that his days in a uniform are numbered, Ray Lewis never did that. Lewis brought it on the field and wan’t anywhere near the asswipe that Scott is. Furthermore Bart Scott’s reputation as “the Madbacker” clouds Jets fans’ opinion of him. He’s truly a contemptible human being.
didn't Ray Lewis kill a guy?
"No one ever accomplishes anything alone in football. We all like to think that we can, but that's just not true. It's always been a team game, always will be." - Tom Dempsey
"Leadership is getting someone to do what they don’t want to do, to achieve what they want to achieve." - Tom Landry
LMAO!
True, true… I just finished slaying JPP…in my head.
"No one ever accomplishes anything alone in football. We all like to think that we can, but that's just not true. It's always been a team game, always will be." - Tom Dempsey
"Leadership is getting someone to do what they don’t want to do, to achieve what they want to achieve." - Tom Landry
He's also a tool in the locker room too.
He’s leaving because Rex is sick of his crap. How much of a tool do you have to be where Rex Ryan says “this guy’s too big of an asshole, he’s gotta go”
Tarheel...
I’d rather have someone like Bob Lilly. He wasn’t trying to maim guys, but he did dominate every offensive line.
Bob Lilly is my favorite Cowboy ever. He dominated and never celebrated.
God broke the mold after Bob Lily.
Wish you were here and comfortably numb.
no he simply reused it to create Demarcus Ware
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Jan 5, 2012 9:22 PM CST up reply actions
i liked Bart Scott a lot
But hearing the way the Jets talk about him, he may be the Bradie James of the jets, solid tackler for years but no longer has much left in the tank. That being said, I wouldn’t have an issue singing him as a backup
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
he would be a good depth signing
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 5, 2012 7:40 PM CST up reply actions
oh my god so many excuses
Every year another one
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 5, 2012 5:31 PM CST up reply actions
Can you back up your opinions based on empirical data?
If you think Spencer sucks it’ll be a tough challenge.
My stance on Spencer is that he's a fine player
Average, milk toast, run of the mill. He’s been worth the $1.5 million salary cap room definitely.
Problem is you don’t want milk toast out of a #1 draft pick
Problem is he’s on the opposite side of one of the best pass rushers on this generation
Problem is free agent 1st round pick OLBs aren’t cheap in free agency
An average, milk toast, run of the mill outside linebacker in that situation is not worth keeping.
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 5, 2012 6:02 PM CST up reply actions
I think the word you're looking for milquetoast.
A Michigan man wouldn’t make that mistake ;)
Anyways I think he’s been a lot better than run of the mill, he’s been a good starter definitely above average, not pro-bowl quality but he’s been pretty good every year.
i posted this on another thread
player / weight / short shuttle / vertical jump
Spencer / 261 / 4.43 / 32.5
Spears / 307 / 4.44 / 31
it’s not a mystery why Spencer struggles to get to the QB and then QBs are able to evade him. his lateral agility is similar to Marcus Spears.
he’s whatever. he’s good against the run.
at least people are realistic and aren’t claiming a breakout 10 sack season is around the corner.
For God and country - Geronimo
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Jan 5, 2012 6:08 PM CST up reply actions
How many LOLB have 10 sack seasons?
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
Conner Barwin for one
Who, interestingly, you omitted from your list
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 5, 2012 6:44 PM CST up reply actions
Oh, you are absolutely right
You are right, for some reason I saw Reed as LOLB on a depth chart but he was playing ROLB. But with the loss of Mario, i wonder if Barwin wasn’t rushing the passer more often than most LOLB (like Woodley and Matthews)
But that doesn’t mean many LOLB do have 10+ sack seasons. It is very rare.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
I'm not saying it's easy
But are we trying to be 8-8 here or are we trying to win Superbowls?
When you look at really good defenses they typically have two really good guys on the edges. Mathis/Freeney, Harrison/Woodley, Umeniura/Tuck.
Superbowls are won and lost by the level of QB play on the offense and getting to the QB on defense. If we want to win Superbowls we need to find Ware’s bookend.
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 5, 2012 6:57 PM CST up reply actions
this is basically one of the 2 key areas of difference between pro / anti Spencer guys.
to summarize
1. what does it take to excel vs. what’s average/reasonable to expect
2. importance of stopping pass vs. importance of stopping run
anti-spencer guys are usually talking about how to take the next step and think stopping the pass is key.
pro-spencer guys are usually saying Spencer is at least satisfactory and that the value of run stopping isn’t appreciated.
For God and country - Geronimo
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Jan 5, 2012 7:48 PM CST up reply actions
A couple more:
1. Some guys just intuitively expect that rushing “opposite Ware” should make Spencer better. I’ve checked the stats, and they’re wrong—a dominant sack-specialist does not usually create more sacks for the second-best guy. All the talk about Ware getting double-teamed so Spence should have more sacks does not seem to match reality in the NFL, where the defense (rightly) schemes to get the sack-specialist to the quarterback first.
2. Trying to improve the Cowboys’ strengths (from top-10 pass rush to top-5 pass rush) rather than its weaknesses (e.g., its secondary). This is the same thinking that wants the Cowboys to have the best O-line, running attack, and receivers in the league—without drafting for the defense.
Correlation/Causation
Both Mathis and Osi were kind of middling players that just had really good years. Osi is a pass rushing specialist that’s pretty awful at everything else. Freeney was one of the most overrated players in the league, any trap or counter and he was completely toast. Oversimplification, big time.
and they both have rings
Freeney pressured Rex Grossman into the worst performance of his career, making him a permanent punchline.
Osi, as the cornerstone of that defensive line, held Brady to 14 points.
Meanwhile our Cowboys defense makes Rex Grossman, Jon Skelton, and Matt Moore look like stars and allowed teams with a winning record to put up an average of 28 points on it.
Maybe there’s something to that whole pass rush thing.
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 6, 2012 7:48 AM CST up reply actions
+1
Maybe there’s something to that whole pass rush thing
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
Please, the rings argument?
Yeah Jared Allen and DeMarcus Ware, the two best of this generation, DON’T have rings and the guy with the most sacks of all time, Bruce Smith, retired without a ring. So maybe PASS RUSH DOESN’T MATTER HERP DE DERP
That has to be the stupidest argument I’ve ever heard. Held Brady to 14 points? Yes the greatest team of all time had a bad day and got held to 14 points. Osi as a cornerstone? You’ve got to be kidding me. The two best players on that line were Tuck and Strahan. Osi was just there as a rush specialist. If you’re going to be wrong at least make arguments that are hard for me to crush. Can you do better than Spencer? Yeah, you can. Is it necessary to win? Absolutely not. They need to find a CB that doesn’t suck as much as Newman and beef up the OL, whether it be internally or through the draft.
Conner Barwin was
Houston’s #1 pass rusher btw… and to note they had better inside rushers too… Cushing had 4…. JJ… had 5.5…. Smith had 6.5 and Williams had 5 We don’t have anyone but Spencer and Ware… no one else the team had more then 4.5 sacks and only two had above 3 sacks. The rest were 1 or 2 including Ratliff… who no-one seems to be crying about.
RexP
Yeah, that Ratliff thing needs some investigation
I saw him get a lot of penetration and disrupt things. But his sack numbers are 7.5, 6, 3.5, 2. That’s starting to look like a trend. And we just extended his contract and guaranteed him for the next 4 years.
I think that is worth an article to investigate.
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 5, 2012 7:02 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
Ratliff is having a hard time splitting double teams. His best qualities were his burst off the line and his relentless motor, but those are the first things to go with age.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
Reportedly Ratliff has been wearing down in games
Which is why I’m glad Lissimore has developed so nicely. I was waaay against the contract extension but for now Ratliff is still a very valuable piece of the puzzle. He’s snaps just need to be limited.
BTW
The fact that Barwin’s total tackle numbers are in the 40s is normally a clear sign he rushed the passer far more often than anything else.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
AMEN, PREACH SON PREACH
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 5, 2012 8:07 PM CST up reply actions
or his lack of pass rush ability?
your guess is as good as anyones but since i haven’t seen it over the years he’s been here i dont just see it magically happening next season.
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
So he doesn't get the sacks...
But he racks up lots of QB hits, TFLs, and forced fumbles. That’s like ragging on someone who doesn’t hit 40 HRs but instead hits 20HRs and 50 doubles, still a pretty good player.
Im sure you saw this coming
But fan has a serious hatred for Spencer and he holds true to that no matter what. I truly don’t feel like fan knows alot about defense or lets just say wade Phillips 3-4. Throw in rob ryans scheme with wades talent build and we have Spencer right where we need him. No one will be satisfied until he is getting over 12 sacks a year and that’s fine with me. But lets just set this now best judge of what is needed is the guy who is calling the plays right. Let rob decide if Spencer is playing next year signed before the draft then I’d say we know what is needed. Fan is always right keg you should know this. His stats don’t lie.
by Sado44 on Jan 5, 2012 6:35 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think Fan knows a lot about anything...
He knows stats and tries to make them work to prove his opinion all while calling it objective and based on facts.
This is the same dude that keeps a running tally of YPA and tries to make that explain every little aspect of the game. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if he didn’t even watch the games. He probably just pulls up the box score at the end and then starts cracking the numbers.
Interceptions are random, but game scores can be predicted, BS…
off topic, i miss bigdin … mr ‘von miller is just an overhyped victor butler’
For God and country - Geronimo
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Jan 5, 2012 6:50 PM CST up reply actions
I miss him too
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 5, 2012 7:42 PM CST up reply actions
Great argument to resign him, he's also is a good coverage OLB.
The market will tell his worth.
The only prefect science is hindsight............Lock n Load
Is he?
I read a comment the other day that opposing QBs had a 100+ QB rating throwing at him. This is unconfirmed.
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 5, 2012 5:32 PM CST up reply actions
Leads all other OLB's in tackles what is your opinion on that.
Newman is Bad!
by Feeling Blue & Silver on Jan 5, 2012 5:40 PM CST up reply actions
Tackles doesn't tell me much
It’s pretty much an empty stat for most positions. I question tackles because tackles can mean lots of things. It can mean you get run at a lot, it can man you get thrown to a lot, or it can mean the DE next to you is bad so they like to run to your side, or it can mean takes are scared to death to run plays at Ware.
What I’d like to see is some efficiency stats:
Average yards per sack.
Average yards gained per tackle.
Here’s what I think. I think Spencer gets coverage sacks or when the QB is starting to run. I remember one sack this year where the QB on 3rd and 10 was trying to scramble with absolutely no chance of making it to the marker. Spencer tackles him half-a-yard behind the line of scrimmage and that’s called a “sack”.
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 5, 2012 5:46 PM CST up reply actions
But a sack is a sack right
And a TFL is worthless from what I remeber reading on here seems to be that a sack and TFL are almost the same thing.
by Sado44 on Jan 6, 2012 6:45 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
if you tackle a guy at LOS or 40 yards down the field is it not a tackle?
if you get up in a QB’s face and force incompletions/interceptions or lock your TE/RB up in coverage does the QB rating not drop(in general or when targeting player he is guarding or at Spencer in general)?
The realist keepin it real amongst the surrealists
I was in Baghdad before these little B.G.'s was in they daddy-bags.
by starbury_to_s-jaxci2000 on Jan 5, 2012 10:10 PM CST up reply actions
Comment and I didn't confirm it
That’s why I’m asking. What’s the data that shows he’s a good in coverage?
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 5, 2012 5:47 PM CST up reply actions
LOL I heard a comment the other day:
This can be confirmed:
Eddie George said on NFL Network that it was Tony Romo’s fault that they lost 4-5 games during the last 5 games of the season and that Dallas should get rid of both Romo and Garrett.
Does that make it TRUE!
RexP
what a moron
he’s still mad because he couldnt beat out richie anderson or julius jones.
We're here to win football games. The way to do that is to tell him and to get on him at the right times. I do that when you guys (media) don't see and watch.''
What else makes a strong leader?
"You win,'' Romo said. "You're a very good leader once you win.
"That's' what we're going to do.''
i remember when Julius was drafted,
the first things i read at official site was that “…actually we have a running back that can accelerate…” :)
oh, that post-Emmitt dark age, T-Ham, A-Train, Eddie George…
The QB rating doesn't tell the whole story because it says nothing about when the QB doesn't throw at him.
And maybe, when the QB isn’t throwing his direction it’s because he is covering his guy well and when the QB throws at him it is because the coverage is broken. The QB rating doesn’t tell anything about the frequency of those 2 scenarios.
I don't even know if that QB rating is true
All I’m asking is where is the data that shows he’s good in coverage?
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 5, 2012 6:50 PM CST up reply actions
Here.
In 2010 he had the 4th best stop rate amongst LBs (could be OLBs, but still top five) against the pass. 17 plays, 14 stops. Via FO.
I think this approach should be taken with everyone on the team that people hate.
Yeah he’s not elite, but does that mean that he sucks? There’s a huge difference between suck and elite. You should also include holds drawn (imperfect since Ware was held countless times only to not have it called) and hurries. However, this is a pretty good analysis.
Yeah, he played the worst quarter he’s ever played in the first quarter against the Giants, and he probably hasn’t been worth trading up for, but other than that he’s been pretty damn solid. It’s hard to think of guys in the NFL you’d rather have. All the ones you’d rather have are in the pro-bowl, but you can’t have a pro-bowler every where. I think he’s a good player and definitely worthy of a first rounder, maybe not the trade up but surely worth a late 20s pick. He’s started for the team for a few years and played well enough to warrant a starting spot on an NFL team.
I think where most people are getting on him is “is he worth bringing back?” He’s probably not worth overpaying as he’s no essential piece, and there’s other players available, but if they offer him a market deal? I don’t see why you don’t re-sign him.
by Omar Little on Jan 5, 2012 5:26 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Right with you
Put any player under the microscope and you’ll see flaws. There have been plenty of teams that have been pretty darn good with a bunch of flawed players. Conversely, the “dream teams” rarely pan out. Sure, we could really use more of a pass rush on the side opposite Ware, but I’ll take Spencer’s stats and a new corner any day. I’ll also take that 0.5 yd sack that BED mentioned as it is a loss of down and one less 30 yd pass to a wide open receiver.
I don't think he sucks overall. I just think he is a bad pass rusher.
And that is enough reason for me to avoid paying him to be a stop-gap for the next five years.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
I wouldn't say "bad"
But I definitely don’t think he’s a good enough pass rusher to sign to a big contract. If it’s closer to what Free got…I dunno.
You would consider giving him Free's contract?
If I was Jerry and he asked for that I would scoff and let him walk while laughing. Free got that contract for being a great RT in 2009 and good LT in 2010. Spencer was in that same range of production for half of a season two years ago.
And what’s really funny, is that it is already looking like we may have overpaid for Free. Now obviously hindsight is 20-20, but if Free can disappoint after a contract like that, I can only imagine what depths Anthony could go to.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
Yeah...
You’re probably right, if it’s like 2/12 or so with little guaranteed I’d consider it. Free, OTOH, well guys are entitled to a down year. He’s probably a better fit as a RT. He was great in 2009, good in 2010, an Outland trophy finalist, and our resident expert on OL play Norm had pretty good things to say about him. I’ll chalk 2011 up to being a down year and out of position. He may very well have just hit a wall, but he has enough of a past to make up for a down year.
I expect Free to rebound at RT, but it goes to show even the risk of resigning FAs.
And now that I think about it, the only way I could ever be talked into signing Spencer if it is on a very short deal.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
If he signs with the cowboys for a reasonable deal, I don't mind.
But they do need to draft his eventual replacement. If DeCastro is not there at 14, Ingram sounds pretty good to me.
Ingram's a more of a 34 DE, Upshaw's more of the "Spencer type" of player
And 14 is too high to draft a replacement for a player who’s role is like Spencer’s when you already have a competent player on the roster signed for more than one year, and other needs. If DeCastro isn’t there I want Kirkpatrick, Dennard, or go for DL help. Either that or draft Upshaw or Irvin and use the Spencer money elsewhere.
Do you really think Jerry will take an OG at #14?
The only prefect science is hindsight............Lock n Load
As good as DeCastro? Yes.
However, do I think Jerry will take an OG at 14 after spending three picks on the OL last offseason and with Koiser, Lumpy, Akrin, and Nagy in the mix? I’m unsure. There’s other needs on the team and he may feel that the pick is best spent elsewhere, which is a perfectly valid opinion to have. DeCastro had blood clots in his lungs his freshmen year and if the Cowboys stay away from him based on medical concerns, that’s understandable too. Jerry did have Iupati ranked 10th the year he came out, so I would say yes, he would take a guard at 14th. Do I think he’ll take DeCastro at 14th this year? Maybe.
According to Broadus, the guys at Valley ranch are "looking at that kid from Stanford"
Presumably they mean Castro. And to protect the franchise QB who nearly got knocked out of a critical Division deciding game…. yeah I think they would. I hope they do. Our offense would be awesome with a good interior line
Upshaw is very "Spencer type" way too "Spencer type" for my liking. I think he's going to be Almost Upshaw
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 5, 2012 5:37 PM CST up reply actions
idk
I hear Woodley comparisons, wanna see his combine first
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 5, 2012 7:42 PM CST up reply actions
That's basically the best case scenario and what he was in college.
If he hits 75% of that he’s basically Spencer. He’s not going to blow up the Combine.
This is week 1 of my draft prep
But when I watched Upshaw he looked slow to me.
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 6, 2012 7:58 AM CST up reply actions
the 2 scare crows.........
2 scare crows in the field…. 1 scare crow.(newman) moves soo slow he resembles a sun dial……
the other( spencer ) will chase you to the end of the corn rows and waves "yall come back now "
redskins- bought by Snyder, OWNED by THE Cowboys !
Ryan- If only i could get that kind of aggression from my. Hey! You gonna eat that ?
Texans .....stand tall and REP !
He's going to get 6/40-45 with 13-17 guaranteed on the open market.
Can they give him that at this point? No way.
Can they let him walk right now with no replacement? Not really.
They are in between. Simple solution…..
Tag him, pay him 8.8M for this year, and take two off-seasons to find his replacement if you need it.
Plus…who knows…maybe that will piss him off just enough to give him the edge he needs.
And yes BED…I know what it means to tag a player :)
That's the conundrum with Spencer
he’s a good OLB.
But not a great OLB.
What kind of $$ will he get on the open market? I wouldn’t pay him more than 5 million per season, if that.
But who takes his place if he walks? hence the dilemma…
He's going to get a big money deal
That’s the issue.
OLB is a really hard position to find, it’s not easy. Many teams like Arizona, the Jets, or San Diego have NOTHING at OLB on either side.
Someone’s going to give him a big contract because they’re going to see the numbers that Rabble posted above and be desperate for an upgrade at OLB.
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 5, 2012 5:50 PM CST up reply actions
You're going to have to
Lamaar Woodley is making $10 million a year
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 5, 2012 5:54 PM CST up reply actions
He's not as good as Woodley and I don't think teams will see him as such
However, like they say “all it takes is one team,” so you might be right. That being said I don’t see a bidding war situation involving him. If someone thinks he’s worth big money as the strong side backer I’m pretty sure they’ll be the only ones. 43 DE you might have teams after him…
I don't think $10 million but certainly a more then $3 million a year
I’d expect in the neighborhood of Doug Free’s $6-7 million a year deal.
by Blue Eyed Devil on Jan 5, 2012 6:03 PM CST up reply actions
Woah.
I thought we all agreed he was a serviceable and possible annoyance we should not overpay. As long as the price is okay, we are in no position to let him go.
WE NEED LINEMAN.
Good post, Keg. REC.
"I'm your huckleberry."
not enough
So by your stats he got one sack every three games and one QB hit per game. NOT enough.
I think most of us would happily give up some rush protection for more pass protection. Passing is the name of the game now and we need to face that fact.
BY THE WAY
THis was Spencers contract year and obviously the best we can expect from him; not likely he will do as well next year. As his career has shown.
Therefore we need to move on. I would offer him a decent deal IF we can find a Pass rushing DE to put in front of him.
Several problems here
Contract year myth, been disproven time and again. If you’re saying he’s past his physical peak and we shouldn’t expect more that’s one thing, but the contract year thing is a total myth.
Lil over a sack every three games and one QB hit a game seems to be pretty good for the strong side backer.
Agreed that I’d rather have a lot more offense for less defense.
Only if you accept it
and I would remind you of the ‘myth’ that was our FS once. IT has happened elsewhere. Remember Haynesworth? Brutal truth was that Spencer had the most motivation possible this year to be his best. You can try and say otherwise but that basic fact is true. THis is as good as he gets and its not good enough
Even if he wasn't extra motivated by it being his contract year. He's going into his sixth
year of starting and will be 28 years old soon. OLBs generally do not get better after five years starting and definitely not after 28 years of age. He has developed all he is going to develop. He will be 30+ at the end of his next deal (assuming a 4+year deal). He’s not getting better.
hi, he's not going into his sixth year starting.
he got a few in his rookie year, but that was only because the team was waiting for Greg Ellis to return from his Achilles injury suffered the previous year. Spencer waited two years as a backup before starting the last three years.
as of OLBs getting worse after 28, go to Pittsburgh, there’s a big guy playing there who’s eating people for breakfast, called James Harrison, that guy rarely started until the age of 29, and now he’s paying big time fines from his even bigger salary.
i’m saying just like many of us are saying, that keep Spencer if he’s not demanding too much money, let’s see if a full off-season’s worth of practice in Rob’s system would benefit him.
so your comparing Spencer to Harrison?
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
no,
i’m just sayin’ that it’s not a given that OLBs above the age of 28 get on a decline.
i had to put an effective example in there.
Four year I'd say no...
If you can structure it to where the salary of the first two is all that’s guaranteed fine, you can cut him with zero penalty later.
We all piss and moan when Jerry resigns an average or a little above player to a big contract, remember MB3
Resign Spencer 30m for 5 years, 12m guaranteed sounds like fair market. Watch, the pissing and moaning will be underway next season when he still isn’t getting sacks.
The only prefect science is hindsight............Lock n Load
Exactly. I thought we wanted to end those contracts. And yet here are so many begging for them on here.
Let Spencer walk and draft a replacement. You don’t improve by staying put and bringing back average players. I want Elam to walk too. This defense must be improved and status quo won’t get us there.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
I mean...
If he’s affordable why not? If he’s like Spencer or Hatcher last year, then he should be re-signed. I think the point of this article was that they can do a whole lot worse.
they resigned Scandrick and Sensabaugh, they did not resign Spencer
If they had been in negotiations with Spencer I’m sure there would have been a rumor to that effect.
The why not is that when you sign a guy like Spencer to the contract he will likely be looking for
you aren’t committing to him for just a year. You are committing to him for multiple years and the opportunity cost of the move will prevent you from pursuing FAs this year and perhaps other OLBs or FAs in the future. You are also declaring that you don’t expect any improvement from that position going forward.
On a defense that is in clear need of upgrades, I just can’t agree with that position. The status quo has to stop being good enough. I want improvement at OLB and I believe with our draft position we have a very good chance at improving at that position. Now, some would argue that CB or DE need to be addressed and I agree. However, Coples is likely the guy at DE that I would ever feel comfortable taking at #14 given his size and athleticism. Perhaps Brandon Jenkins from Clemson could change my mind but needless to say, the elite 5-technique is a rare breed (rarer even than OLB in my opinion) and one I don’t expect to be there at #14. I think OLB is a more easily upgradeable position at #14.
Now, as for corner, I think this is the easiest out of the three levels of the defense to address. Not only are there more free agent options at CB, but CB is generally a much deeper position in the draft. Unless Morris Clairborne or Dre Kirkpatrick are there at #14, I would rather go OLB there as well.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Creasy729 on Jan 6, 2012 3:10 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Great points about the rarity of pass-rushers, especially at certain positions
The advantages of a 3-4 are supposed to be two-fold, in general:
1) Flexibility in defensive alignment, and ability to blitz from a variety of angles and positions. The problem is, we have too few pass rushers. We need to get more of them, whatever position they play.
2) It’s easier (at least according to Parcells) to find guys who go 6’3" 250lbs and can play standing up in a 3-4 than freaks like Mario Williams (6’6" 283lbs) or Julius Peppers (6’7" 287lbs) to be your 4-3 bellcow. From that perspective, finding a complement to DeMarcus Ware shouldn’t be as hard as it has been for us. Should it?
The third advantage is having more weight in the front to stop the run, but who cares?
But the most important point you made, Creasy, is that we can’t overpay for middling production that will come back to bite us in 3 years, ESPECIALLY when it comes with an opportunity cost of failing to even try and upgrade the position through the draft. Having set, old, expensive starters at OL for a few years is part of what kept us from adding any depth.
by Nassau Cowboy on Jan 6, 2012 9:31 AM CST up reply actions
You're answering a completely different question.
I’m asking what’s a good place for burgers, you’re saying that The Tavern has good Pizza. I’m saying if it’s a short deal with little guaranteed money, which I anticipate it will be, then I don’t see the problem. You’re saying if it’s a big deal that’s longer than three years with money guaranteed beyond the first two, walk away. I think we’re in agreement here.
Speaking of the defense, the defense was far improved than it was last year. There’s no stat that I’ve seen out there that says that it was anything worse than average. That’s also with the worst corner back in football playing out there too. Lets stop acting like this is New England’s defense out there. I agree that CB and DE are greater needs. The elite 5-tech is rare, total agreement there. Not sure there is one in the draft, but I think the rarity comes from the lack of college teams that play the 34. It’s probably not an easy thing to do to go from learning the 43 tackle to the 34 end. The only elite 34 ends I can think of are Richard Seymour, Brent Keisel, and Aaron Smith.
As to Dre Kirkpatrick…ehh, I think most people here will be disappointed with him at 14. I say sign Finnegan to play corner. For the first pick I want David DeCastro, mostly because I think in three years he’ll be the best guard in football. Given the importance of the passing game I’d say that’s a far better investment than upgrading an average defense. With him and Tyron Smith you’ll see a left side of the line that resembled Seattle’s when they had Walter Jones and Steve Hutchinson.
Well we have different expectations of his contract then.
If it is short term with little guaranteed money than I won’t go in any rage, but I would rather just let the guy walk.
As for the rest, I can see the DeCastro argument, but I would rather invest in our defense. I think good guards can be easily obtained later in the draft, and we still hve the likes of Kowalski (who I really think should be starting over someone) and Arkin to develop. Btw, I really like Kirkpatrick a lot more than you I guess. I will be surprised if he drops to 14 because his size and speed just don’t come along a lot. His potential skill set is in line with that of Nnamdi’s.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
some people are fine with 6-10 or 8-8 seasons just as long as there pets are resigned
what would the Patriots, Packers or Steelers do? i say they let them walk or trade them & just find another replacement in the draft. you cant resign everyone & the draft is the way most super bowl contenders have built through
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
Hopefully this turns out.
Not every defense collects the same number of sacks. In order to normalize the total number of sacks for each OLB, I divided the number of team sacks from the number of individual sacks for those players you note above. Here are the results:
Crap. Here it is...maybe:
Player Team % of sacks Sacks
L. Woodley PIT 0.214285714 9
R. Kerrigan WAS 0.182926829 7.5
C. Matthews GB 0.181818182 6
J. Houston KC 0.171875 5.5
A. Brooks SF 0.166666667 7
J. Taylor MIA 0.159090909 7
C. Kelsay BUF 0.161290323 5
A. Spencer DAL 0.15 6
B. Reed HOU 0.142857143 6
S. Phillips SD 0.112903226 3.5
J. Westerman NYJ 0.1 3.5
C. Haggans ARI 0.075 3
So you see that Spencer generates about 15% of the total sacks for Dallas. Only Reed, Phillips, Westerman, and Haggans generate a lower percentage of sacks for their respective teams.
The reason I think that sacks are such an important statisitc for Spencer, is that the Cowboys do not generate pressure from their three defensive linemen. San Francisco’s Justin Smith had 7.5 sacks as a defensive lineman. Hatcher led the Dallas linemen with 4.5 sacks this season.
But this doesn't take into consideration how often the player rushes the passer
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
We have Ware though..
Ware is doubled constantly in almost every game. Add in Ratliff, and we know that every other pass rusher on the team is going one on one most of the time.
This argument does not help spencer.
If lots of players get sacks
An average pass rusher will have a smaller percentage of sacks than he would if he were on a team with a crappy pass rush like the Jets.
The problem is we don't have lots of players getting sacks.
we were tied for 7th in the league, and of the top 8 teams, no team had a higher % of its sacks coming from one player as of week 16.
From a post I wrote before week at:
Top 8 teams in sacks:
Philly-18/49 are from Babin
Baltimore-13/48 from Suggs
Cincy-8/44 from Geno Atkins
Minnesota = 18.5/43 from Jared Allen
NYG-15.5/42 from JPP
Houston-11.5/41 from Barwin
Dallas – 18/40 from Ware
Broncos – 11.5/40 from Von Miller
We have the highest percentage of sacks coming from a single player, and the only team with a similar level is Minnesota. Its pretty clear when laid out this way that we need more of a pass rush coming from players other than DWare
by foyesboys on Jan 5, 2012 6:28 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I know this doesn't just point out Spencer
but my point is given Ware sees double teams constantly, and I know Ratliff sees them a decent % of the time, Spencer is almost ALWAYS one on one.
Compare this to the Steelers and Chargers: I would bet Woodley and Phillips see far more double teams than Spencer.
But again, % of plays rushing the passer matters greatly, and we don’t have those numbers.
just saying that Jared Allen collected a little more than 18.5 sacks.
go try somewhere around 22.
that was from before week 17!
Obviously the new stats will have Minny/Allen as the highest % from one player, though we are pretty close.
It does not take into account a lot of things.
How often does the pass rusher face a running back, tight end, or nobody because of great scheme?
How often does the sack occur after several seconds of good/great coverage (rarely, if ever, for the Cowboys)?
How often does the player induce a penalty (e.g., grounding or holding)?
How often does the player blow an assignment?
It is not a perfect statistic, but it does help differentiate a pressure scheme from more of a coverage scheme. It is designed to gauge the relative importance of each pass rusher within the overall effectiveness of the defense.
Last season, the Cowboys had more sacks with Wade’s defense, but gave up an enormous number of big plays. When Paqualoni took over, the sacks went down, but the turnovers went up and the big plays decreased.
Pittsburgh and Green Bay play the same type of 3-4 defense. Buffalo and Arizona execute a hybrid scheme, I believe. Kansas City plays a scheme similar to New England, and Houston runs Wade’s version of the 3-4.
It is difficult to make the assertions that you made based on a simpe quantitative statistics, because of the innumerable variables associated with each scheme and each play. As I said, my statistic is not perfect, but with all due respect, neither is quoting gross numbers.
I suspect that the Cowboys will wait to see what Spencer fetches on the open market, and if he is affordable (like Spears, and Hatcher last offseason), the team will make an offer. If that is so, then I feel confident thinking that the Cowboys really do feel Spencer has underachieved.
ouch
The only thing I can think of to refute that is % of plays rushing the passer will obviously heavily influence those stats. I highly doubt Spencer rushes the passer as much as Kelsay, Taylor, Brooks, Mathews, Kerrigan or Woodley.
Thats a sorely needed statistic in this debate imo.
LOL
Scarlet… so if someone get’s one sack and the rest of the team gets 3 making his sack total 30% if the teams sacks that makes him better then everyone on the board.
The better solution is get better inside DE’s which would help Spencer instead of getting rid of him.
RexP
Your piece Almost causes me to keep an open mind, Keg.
His numbers seem to compare favorably. Here’s the problem I have. For a number of weeks, when I was watching the game for the second time around, I made a point to watch Spencer on every play. He certainly underperformed for what he could have done in those games. I saw him get a lucky sack. The QB was flushed right into his arms by Lee. I saw him force a great fumble. I’m perfectly fine with giving him credit where credit is earned. But I saw him whiff far too often on his tackles. He wasn’t just Almost Anthony in the pass rush. He was Almost Anthony on the tackling end of it as well. In that four week stretch I saw him miss on more tackles than he made.
He also was ineffective covering backs and TE’s out of the backfield. That’s not by stats, that’s by the eye test. He reminded me of Alan Ball the way he was constantly chasing his assignment from behind. When going by stats, in pass coverage do you know how many passes he successfully defended this season? One. He has been covering backs and TE’s his entire career. How many interceptions does he have? One…in his career. While it is true only 25-30% of the time he is rushing the passer, the rest of the time he’s holding his edge, and covering patterns. He is just as Almost in those duties as he is as a pass rusher. Yes, he is versatile enough to do multiple things, and Almost talented enough to do them well.
We have the goal of winning Super Bowls. If you don't have that, find the door.
Jason Garrett
Not sure how you can be terrible at tackling and lead all LOLB in total tackles and tackles for a loss.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
I know it wasn't you specifically watching him
It was me. But I have no dog in this fight. (Mike’s not listening, is he?) I’m simply reporting what I saw. The dude missed 10 or more tackles in that four game stretch. He should have been able to get to the ball carrier, and Almost did, but not quite. I think he’s a little slow upstairs, which causes him to break late. And his pass defense numbers are not open to my interpretation.
We have the goal of winning Super Bowls. If you don't have that, find the door.
Jason Garrett
I was wathcing him and I agree he certainly missed some tackles…those my issue with his consistency.
As for the pass defense #s, the only time he seemed lacking was when he had man coverage and the guy went deep. As for PD and INT, it’s not often that happens to short passes in the flat, it is about being there quickly to make the tackle and Spencer does do that.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
Understand a couple of things here.
I was never the one complaining about Spencer. I was rewatching the Cardinals game and noticed him just standing there on one play. I thought WTF, so I started watching him. I was appalled. For the next few weeks I kept watching, and became disenfranchised with him completely.
And those pass plays I was speaking of were not deep passes. I never saw him cover anyone deeper than 15 yards. He was consistently trailing the receiver on 5 yard ins, and not in position in the flat. He was generally out of position, getting burned.
I don’t deny that it may be difficult to find anyone better in the short term. I just have a problem with a guy that isn’t displaying field awareness, and doesn’t play with heart. If he played with heart on every snap, the dude could be a stud.
We have the goal of winning Super Bowls. If you don't have that, find the door.
Jason Garrett
Spencer admits he suffers from a "lack of effort" this year was going to be different
Apparently it wasn’t. He’s still a quitter.
I don't pretend to know what's in a player's head
but if I had to guess I’d say he’s a paycheck player with great physical gifts. Football isn’t that important to him. He’ll do just enough to keep the paychecks flowing. I’ve seen with my own eyes where he made very little effort to pursue a ball carrier. All of Spencer’s problems are above the shoulders.
We have the goal of winning Super Bowls. If you don't have that, find the door.
Jason Garrett
That's why I don't think they will resign him. I'm sure RR though he could get him
to play up to his 2009 level, but “some people you just can’t reach.” He doesn’t sound like a Garrett type of guy.
Whoooooa
I wouldn’t call the man slow upstairs infact he has never been called a genius but he is educated and from my personal interactions with him he has alot of football knowledge. Don’t make assumptions you are clues about.
by Sado44 on Jan 6, 2012 7:45 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Now we've had this conversation before.
And after attacking everyone in that piece that said anything negative about Spencer, and after a lengthy debate with myself, you admitted your personal feelings were clouding your judgement. Again, I’m basing my assessment off of watching the player perform. He does break slow. He does pursue slow…sometimes. Sorry Sado. I know you’re a nice guy, and this is personal for you, but he is what he appears to be. And while calling me clueless is inappropriate, it doesn’t change the fact that I studied his game.
We have the goal of winning Super Bowls. If you don't have that, find the door.
Jason Garrett
Never said you are clueless
But refering to someone who you don’t know as slow and dumb well that is clueless I’m not defending his play on the field we have been throw this and I’ve seen the problem too after art year. Its the one thing I know he does have and that’s football knowledge I will defend that cause I know 100% its there.
by Sado44 on Jan 12, 2012 12:26 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Do we put the transition tag on Spencer?
How much will it cost us?
No...
But you can put a franchise tag on him and get something in the draft for him if someone picks him up in free agency and that’s what I would do.
RexP
yeah, transition tag isn't used much
only gives you the option of matching the contract with nothing rewarded if the player goes elsewhere. That’s how the poison pill came about
by strobman on Jan 5, 2012 11:11 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I have always liked Spencer
I think the main reason we here on BTB and other Cowboys fans hate him is because he isn’t as good a pass rusher as we would like. Obviously we need more help from guys other than D-Ware generating a pass rush. If we can pick up a solid pass rusher in the draft this year and we re-sign Spencer, I think that people will like him.
I haven't liked him, but don't see the hate
Hes around average for a starting LOLB. Without going through his play on a per game basis, I think hes a very good run defender and decent in pass defense. However, I agree with BED though in that someone will overpay him. As such, I can’t see him on our roster next year.
I would like another pass rush specialist at OLB – when it comes to 3rd and long, Spencer isn’t a guy you want on the field. Other than Ware right now, the only other decent pass rushing OLB is Victor Butler.
im not a huge spencer fan but i think we can win with him..
This team needs to sign some pressure penetrating DEs and draft some cbs …
by lostar2009 on Jan 5, 2012 6:12 PM CST via mobile reply actions
I have 6 that I'd clearly rather have on my team over Spencer:
Woodley is WAAAAAAAY better than Spencer. There’s no comparison there at all. In the 3 years prior to this one, he had 10, 13.5, and 11.5 sacks. They’re not in the same ballpark. That’s 1.
Same thing goes for Shaun Phillips. Statistically, Phillips had a down year, but his career production is unquestionably better than Spencer’s. That’s 2.
Kerrigan, Houston, and Reed are all rookies. Give me the upside of all three of those promising players over Spencer any day. That’s 5.
Obviously, Matthews is a lot better. That’s 6.
So those are just the guys I’d rather have.
The 5 that I’d take Spencer over:
- Jason Taylor is a surefire first ballot Hall of Famer. The Dolphins are going to replace him, but only because he’s retired.
- Clark Haggans is a marginal starter, and is 34 years old. I’d take Spencer.
- I saw no shortage of 4 Jets games this season, an I don’t have a clue who this Westerman dude is, so OK… Spencer wins that one.
- Never been a Chris Kelsay guy. I’ll give Spencer the edge there, too.
- Ahmad Brooks hasn’t even been a starter for the majority of his career. Spencer again.
By my count, and your opinions may vary, this still puts Spencer in the “below average” category at his position, which is also typically the not-as-good-OLB in the 3-4 scheme.
If I’m JJ, and of course I’m not, I’m looking hard at ways to upgrade there.
Soooo...
Upside and promise you’re taking right? That wasn’t the question The question was how many guys were better than him this season.
Matthews and Kerrigan are better. Woodley is a better pass rusher, but not as versatile (good vs. run and in coverage).
Until Reed and Houston can prove themselves, Spencer is still better. Anthony is certainly not below average, though not elite either.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
Jimmy personally it doesn't matter because you or I can't afford any of the top SIX and even if we could 3 are rookies and aren't going anywhere this year so it's mute. Woodley and Mathews
aren’t going anywhere as far as their prospective teams are concerned Phillips is a good choice but is rounding 30 so … are we going to get the good or bad part of his career. All of the top 6 are mute.
RexP
mute...
I can’t hear you!!!! Moot : doesn’t matter … but… I can’t hear you, Jimmy…. oh hang on a minute I have you on mute!
RexP
the three rookies go to show you
draft the right player and you will be fine
Dallas needs to draft the right player and replace Spencer
replacing Spencer with another Spencer will be moot
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 5, 2012 8:09 PM CST up reply actions
I can't believe we need an Eagles fan to help answer this question. It is clear as hell.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
lol yup
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 6, 2012 1:10 AM CST up reply actions
ok it seem as you guys cleared Spencer name is it possible that any of our cbs like
T.new or Scandrick may be saved ???
Is Scandrick and T.New really garbage ???
by lostar2009 on Jan 5, 2012 6:23 PM CST via mobile reply actions
TNew yes, he is done and should retire
Scandrick is not garbage
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
by Kegbearer on Jan 5, 2012 6:23 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Scandrick isn't garbage
But he’s nothing more than an slightly above average 3rd corner.
Let me be the scouting director AND the GM
Scandrick is like the Anthony Spencer of CBs
Always stride for stride with the WRs but NEVER EVER makes a play on the ball and therefore gets screwed.
Let me be the scouting director AND the GM
While hes not bad
I’m a little worried in that its pretty obvious to me that man defense is not his best asset – I didn’t see all the games last year because once we started sucking they weren’t on tv, but it seemed like he made a bunch of plays in zone.
In man D, I think that once we upgrade Newman’s spot, teams will pick on Scandrick again. He has the same problems – there is little risk throwing his way because hes never looking for the ball in the air. Eli’s going to burn that guy.
TNew should go away but I like Scandrick as a 3rd CB
If we can sign Cortland Finnegan I’d be happy with our top 3 CB’s being Finnegan, Mike, and Scandrick
Ellis
we should be satisfied with at least what he got with us at the same position that Spencer now is at.
And he does not get it.
This is a good write up
I was very optimistic about Spencer coming out of college…..and you raise some very valid points.
But I have 1 big problem….how many of these OLBs that you compare Spencer to have the best pass rusher in the NFL on the other side? I get that Spencer “does more than rush the passer” but when he actually does go for the QB, its not like he is facing constant double teams. Is he a solid player, sure, but 1st round draft picks don’t get paid crap loads of money to almost sack Eli Manning on national TV a few times a year.
Just my opinion, this site easily has the best Cowboys related material on the internet, thanks for all you do Keg.
But the flip side of the coin...
How many teams rush their LOLB more because they don’t have someone like Ware at ROLB?
The guys that have better sack #s than Spencer rush the passer far more often (Matthews, Kerrigan, Woodley especially). I wish there was an easy way to get actual #s but at this point I only have my “eye test” as proof.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
And I would like to see the actual #s as well
But what you just said kinda proves my point, Matthews, Kerrigan and Woodley all rush the pass far more frequently…..so in turn they will get alot more attention on passing downs. If you were an o-coordinator on an opposing team, would you EVER double Spencer?
The standard of greatness of course isn’t how many double teams you see, but I would just like to see him make more of his opportunities. If Anthony Spencer ever had to be “the guy” on an NFL defense, you would see even less production.
by theghostinside on Jan 5, 2012 7:02 PM CST up reply actions
That's debatable
If Spencer was an every down pass rusher on some team, he would most likely get far more sacks…at least in my opinion
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
Well I agree thats its very debatable.
I just don’t see how he would get “far more sacks”. If anything he would get far more almost sacks.
by theghostinside on Jan 5, 2012 7:06 PM CST up reply actions
HAHAHA
With our kind of secondary that would be true
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
not like he can rush anyway
we all have been witness to him trying to bullrush 350 lb tackles to no avail because he is always slow off the snap and has no agility and just get washed upfield or always a half-second too late unless he is going after a QB who is completely checked out(Josh Freeman)
The realist keepin it real amongst the surrealists
I was in Baghdad before these little B.G.'s was in they daddy-bags.
by starbury_to_s-jaxci2000 on Jan 5, 2012 9:56 PM CST up reply actions
THAT IS A GOOD POINT
ware takes so much attention that Spencer has an easier time then most of the other SOLBs around. Yet he does not do all that much with it
Parcells got us on this damned 3-4 trying to relive his Giants glory days
and we always think of the great linebackers he had during his 83-90 run – Carl Banks, Harry Carson, Pepper Johnson, Brad Van Pelt, Andy Headen, Gary Reasons and of course LT. But while LT garnered his sacks and highlights, all those other HOF, All-Pro, Pro Bowl and otherwise high-quality linebackers barely got any sacks. All I ever hear is that in a 3-4 the defensive line doesn’t get sacks, but Parcells’s great Giant defenses got most of their sacks from the line! George Martin, Leonard Marshall, Jim Burt, Erik Howard and linemen I never heard of like Jerome Sally (7.5 sacks in 85) got to the quarterback a ton! Why can’t the Cowboys d-line ever get more than 6-9 sacks a season? Are 3-4’s that much different today that sacks only can come from the linebackers? Our line has sucked for so long, I yearn for the days of Greg Ellis and LaRoi Glover!
I would love Leon Lett as a pass rushing 3-4 End.
Since the flip to the 3-4, we have had consistently average DEs and pretty much average ILBs – James had a few productive seasons (and a pro bowl), Brooking was good on arrival but wore down quickly in his first year.
We also seem to have the least effectual blitzers on the planet, be they S or ILBs. It’s like the opposing OL have webbing between them,
Romo is thousand times smarter than you so does that make you dumb?? Just curious
by I_miss_Switzer on Jan 5, 2012 6:50 PM CST up reply actions
I think Hatcher could be a 4-3 DT
I think that is what Canty plays now. I like Hatcher, I think he is a decent DE.
I don’t mind the 3-4, but DE and ILB have been tough drafting for Dallas.
Romo is thousand times smarter than you so does that make you dumb?? Just curious
by I_miss_Switzer on Jan 5, 2012 7:08 PM CST up reply actions
if we played in a 4-3
Spencer would be awesome
he is too slow and not smart enough to play in the 3-4
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 5, 2012 8:09 PM CST up reply actions
Anthony Spencer is a quitter, quitters aren't good in any scheme.
It’s not that he doesn’t have the talent to be a good OLB, it’s that he doesn’t care. He doesn’t care enough to put forth the effort to be a great OLB. I doubt he would put forth the effort to be a 4-3 DE either.
I think that's another problem too
He’s more suited to play the DE in the 43 given his rush stopping ability, size, strength and speed.
remember that crazy kick block this year?
he looked so fluid and athletic, but generally he seems kind of stiff in the way he plays.
Romo is thousand times smarter than you so does that make you dumb?? Just curious
by I_miss_Switzer on Jan 6, 2012 12:13 AM CST up reply actions
Correct me
If I’m wrong but the 4-3 pass rushers are the the ends tackles are the run stoppers.
by Sado44 on Jan 6, 2012 8:28 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
+1
he is too slow and not smart enough to play in the 3-4
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
Again im gonna stop another one here
Spencer is not dumb he is educated more so than I’d say 70% of the people here on btb and very good football knowledge. Please don’t refure to him as stupid unless you know him personally. Thanks
by Sado44 on Jan 6, 2012 8:27 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Now there you go again.
Attacking anyone that says anything negative about your boy. Perhaps you should abstain for topics surrounding Spencer, because you obviously don’t get it that people around here have had it with him.
We have the goal of winning Super Bowls. If you don't have that, find the door.
Jason Garrett
No sorry man im not saying i havent
HHad it with him to but calling a man stupid and ignorant when you clearly have no clue is not good. And ill correct it everytime I see it.
by Sado44 on Jan 12, 2012 12:22 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
we played 4-3 looks in the Giants game
this was the personnel:
Ware and Hatcher at DEs
Lissy and Rat at DTs
Sean Lee, Bruce Carter were in there at LB, I can’t remember who the last LB was
by somebodyquiet on Jan 6, 2012 5:01 PM CST up reply actions
very interesting
unfortunately he ended the season with two encroachment penalties and probably left an even worse “what have you done for me lately” impression than he even would have otherwise.
But those stats are pretty revealing. Or at least challenging to our conventional wisdom.
Spencer suffers from the expectations of the being the “other” OLB next to perhaps the best in the league, so it always seems like he’s not holding up his end when compared to Ware, but it is very true that his role is different and he shouldn’t be judged just on sacks. He’s a versatile player who is at least solid against the run and in coverage, and because of that he’s an every down player.
I’ve heard calls before and now for replacing him with Butler, but I don’t think Butler is nearly as versatile, as stout against the run or good in coverage, and Butler as good as he is rushing the passer in spot duties, will probably never be an every down player who can truly replace Spencer.
To me it really comes down to the price, compared to what we could replace him with. As he tests the market, we have to see what we’ll have to offer to keep him. The irony is that the cheaper we can get him, the less other teams think of him. If a team pays him like one of the best LOLBs in the league, we probably would do better to try to draft a replacement.
But the basic fact is that OLB is the crux of a 3-4 defense. It is the one position around which the entire defensive scheme revolves, and to be a good 3-4 defense you need at least two quality OLBs and the more depth the better.
Another reason the ’08 draft was such a suck-fest with Brandon Williams not developing as hoped. And maybe Albright has something that can be developed, but if we end up losing Spencer, how much of a drop off will it be to replace him, how long until a new draft pick or currently rostered developmental player can be even as good and as versatile as he is? And how much does our defense suffer because of it?
But if another teams wants to pay him too much, add OLB as another top priority alongside ILB, CB, S and interior oline among our long list of serious draft needs.
"When you want to win a game, you have to teach. When you lose a game, you have to learn."—Tom Landry
That's the thing there's no quick replacement available
I would have loved to draft Houston or Reed last year so if Spencer wanted too much money then you could have let him walk.Why can’t they have 3 OLB’s that can rush the passer? We did in 08 with Ellis and led the league in sacks with 59.You need to keep Ware and Spencer fresh for the 4th qtr to get more meaningful sacks.A rookie most likely will take a year to be up to snuff for a transition to a 3-4 D.There’s not much out there in FA.We don’t put enough emphasis on pass rush and the secondary and that’s one of the reasons it doesn’t get better.
If he’s garbage, why are we predicting he’ll get a big contract? If he’s going to get big money on the open market, then evidently professionals think Spencer is pretty darn good. If he’s truly garbage, then he won’t get any offers and we should be able to pick him up on the cheap. Either way, you don’t run him off.
People just need to accept the fact that he’s not a first round sack master. Maybe his long term value matches a second or third round pick, but that ship’s sailed so get a kleenex and get over it.
Spencer is ranked 3rd on Footballs Future FA list for 2012
Mario Williams is tops but he was a former #1 pick in the draft and will command top money
yes because he's worth that...
He’s going to get offered at least 45 mil or more with a good 20 million guaranteed
RexP
HAHA
Well, when you aren’t a Cowboys fan, you are more objective about a guy like Spencer. Unfortunately, I think we lose him to a team that pays him ROLB money.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
Like Spencer being a quitter but having more tackles than any other LOLB?!
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
Having more tackles doesn't mean anything if your not pressuring the quarterback
A safety or ILB may be measure some what by the number of tackles but not OLB. It’s qb pressures. Because this is a passing league and a defense must get to the qb to be successful. The only guy pressuring the qb was D.Ware. Three of Spencers sacks came in Sept. that means only 3 for the rest of the year. One sack a month doesn’t cut it.
Look at Qb HIts…he is pressuring QB, and he has more sacks than most on the list. But he also leads in tackles for a loss and combined tackles. Clearly he is doing something right…even though he isn’t rushing the passer like Ware
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
Learn more about defense
Cause with this comment I’d say your along ways away from knowing anything at all.
by Sado44 on Jan 6, 2012 8:38 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
It's getting weirder and weider...
that the only time you ever comment on this blog, you are denigrating people that have anything bad to say about Spencer. You do realize you’re taking on a lifetime of frustration by defending him? If he’d just play better none of this would be necessary.
We have the goal of winning Super Bowls. If you don't have that, find the door.
Jason Garrett
i thought admitted to being a quitter?
i could be wrong but i thought somewhere he quit. once a quittter always a quitter imo.
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
He did.
He’s a paycheck player that could be so much more if his heart was in it. Spencer is definitely NOT a RKG.
We have the goal of winning Super Bowls. If you don't have that, find the door.
Jason Garrett
pressure
KB
Whether it’s another edge rusher or a DE or DT, we somehow have to get pressure on the QB without blitzing. That’s a major issue. Whether the Cowboys want to do that with a lineman or another linebacker doesn’t matter as much as that the DO it.
Galveston Dave
Too often this season...
QBs managed to find an open receiver in under 3 seconds and avoided the pass rush. I think our secondary is far worse than our pass rush. Not saying we couldn’t improve it, but I would rather we find help for the secondary first an foremost this year.
Besides, at least we have guys on the DL that are improving (Hatcher, Lissemore) and a young guy like Butler to provide extra pass rush. Who do we havein the secondary that is getting better? Hopefully Jenkins adn Scandrick will, but…
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
look at the past super bowl champs & you'll see great pass rush more then great DBs.
defenses are built to stop QBs more then WRs imo & thats one of the biggest problems with the Jets. there built backwards
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
Great article and solid points about a solid contributor
Clearly, as per your stats (numbers don’t lie), Spencer is playing a far bigger role on this defense than many will give him credit for.
If he was a second round pick much of the backlash wouldn’t exist. But some fans see first round pick attached to the linebacker position and automatically correlate number of sacks to whether he is a bust or not.
As you pointed out he nearly leads his position with number of sacks, does lead number of tackles & forced fumbles, yet many call him a bust because he’s measured against linebackers playing on the right side. Doesn’t make sense. Doesn’t matter. There will be those that complain no matter what stats you provide.
I was hoping we can bring him back on a good contract and seeing your stats now really hope that can happen! Thanks for providing the numbers :)
just fyi,
these are bad stats comparisons. Half the guys on that list were either part time players or missed big parts of the season.
For God and country - Geronimo
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Jan 5, 2012 7:58 PM CST up reply actions
i'm resigned to the fact that we'll probably keep spencer and if we don't keep him we'll miss him...
but, as constructed, our defense needs a more fierce pass rush. and as that relates to him, he’s part of the problem. not the solution.
i respect he plays the run well. i respect he’s pretty good in coverage. but we need an OLB who can do it all. the aforementioned things AND get to the QB more frequently. That guy may not exist or may be hard to find. But we hafto at least try. Hopefully we can find him in the draft while (franchising maybe?) keeping anthony so he can be groomed.
i always go back to the giants. they could’ve made the same arguments about tuck and osi (forgive the cumbersome comparison, they do play different positions). especially after strahan retired. but guess what? they drafted mathius k., they drafted pierre paul, they signed canty, they CONTINUE to stock pass rushers. Staying put instead of continuing to mine the field for talent acquistion at every position (Parcells term) is EXACTLY why we are in the position we are in today. We have very little depth across the board.
Spencer is good. I can live with good. But we need to be searching for great.
"They need security in the world, Craig!"
If he is willing to sign here for 4-5 million a year
I would call it fair… As long as we do something to improve our Secondary and both lines I think we will see a better/same as now spencer next season.
Each week, play whoever is standing across the field from you, whenever and wherever. If you match up well, exploit it and win. If you don’t, then get very crafty in your game play and try to "steal" a win anyway. Repeat process until no more games remain, and confetti rains down from a retractable roof and Roger Goodell is handing out hardware. - hookerhome
in aeternum amicus meus vivit sua musica non morietur - A Friend of mine lives forever, his music will never die. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=LAJQOeCSs_o
the dude is a joke
he is a 4-3 DE playing 3-4 OLB
he would be good in the 4-3
he has been here 5 years and has never had more than 6 sacks
he is a dumb football player who makes too many mistakes
he is opposite of Ware, and does nothing
if this was his 2nd or 3rd year, I would agree but this is his 5th season and is nowhere near good
he needs to be replaced
if we come back with Spencer and sign him to a long term deal, 3 years or something
this defense will not get any better and the pass rush will suffer
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
Ok chia
Prove to us all how he is dumb football player cause I know the man personally and you know what forget it I’m sure you could do it right your smart so you say or maybe you just ha e a good Google talent. This thread is done or I am anyways.
by Sado44 on Jan 6, 2012 8:44 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
people are actually scared of replacing him
thats the problem
we have become content with average
if you can’t upgrade 6 sacks, thats a problem
he isnt even that good in the run, and that is supposed to be his best trait
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
of course people are scared
Last year, the interior of the o-line was an obvious issue. Jerry goes quantity over quality with Costa, Nagy, Kowalski, and Arkin.
Anytime we rely on our GM to address an area of need their will be fear.
We also fear him backing up the money truck.
It is a fearful existence.
Romo is thousand times smarter than you so does that make you dumb?? Just curious
by I_miss_Switzer on Jan 5, 2012 11:49 PM CST up reply actions
I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt for this year. We were up against the cap.
It wasn’t worth mortgaging the future to sign 30 yo guards this year. We needed to much talent to be a real superbowl threat. You have to build through the draft. You can’t just sign a bunch a free agents and be a superbowl team… See the dream team (maybe he meant they would be dreaming of the playoffs at the end of the season?) I think JG is doing it the right way so far. We’ll have to see who he signs and drafts and hire/fires this off season. But I’m encouraged so far.
I just don’t see JG re-signing a guy who lacks effort. Even if he is slightly above average.
maybe not a high price FA
but Wisniewski or something. 4 warm bodies and 3 hail Marys was not good.
Pressure up the middle got us killed in the last game.
Romo is thousand times smarter than you so does that make you dumb?? Just curious
by I_miss_Switzer on Jan 6, 2012 12:12 AM CST up reply actions
he was trying to develop young guys on the Offensive line.
Costa, Kowalski and Nagy got invaluable game experience and we know that at least Nagy and Kowalski can start in a pinch. You have to develop young players, thirty years and older players get hurt and wear down.
Wisniewski being young and under 30
developing young guys is great. Starting guys who can’t play at critical positions is not so great.
Romo is thousand times smarter than you so does that make you dumb?? Just curious
by I_miss_Switzer on Jan 6, 2012 12:26 AM CST up reply actions
We'll have to see what they do this offseason
According to Broadus, they know they have a problem in the middle and they are “seriously looking at that kid from Stanford”
I actually think Victor Butler should have started over him.
That guy makes plays every time he is on the field.
I don't think it's an issue of being content with average or afraid to replace him
I think we have greater needs. I would not focus on upgrading average players but rather replacing below average or TNew level players first and them focusing on the average players.
watch, the Cowboys will resign him
Jerry rewards mediocrity and it will be another mistake that would get another GM fired
Spencer would have gotten a real GM fired
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
I don't think so...
He was a fine player throughout his career that’s more successful than quite a few late first round picks. I mean be objective about this Chia, he’s a player that some are worried about signing a huge deal…he can’t be the worst player in the world if he’s being thought of as a guy that might get overpaid. They can do a hell of a lot worse than Spencer, they have other needs in the draft and no one really that stands out as “that guy’s going to be better,” so if we’re avoiding the “hype” here (both negative and positive) if he’s a reasonably priced FA and they draft DeCastro instead of fixing the SOLB problem, what’s the harm? If you think Butler’s better, fine…but if not, you’ll have to find a second round player or another FA that would be an upgrade. I don’t think it’s that easy.
idk where people are getting the idea he is going to get big money
every NFL GM watched that last game thinking “yup he isn’t worth big money”
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 6, 2012 1:11 AM CST up reply actions
I agree. GMs pay for pass rushers, not for OLBs that hold the edge.
Watch and see how many 3-4 OLBs get drafted in the first two rounds that can’t rush the passer
I bought into Spencer when we drafted him
I bought the hype Dallas sold me
I bought the hype in 2009
I bought the hype when Wade said he was awesome and Ricky Jackson
I bought the hype when Ryan said he was awesome
well I am not buying the BS hype Dallas sells me on Anthony Spencer anymore
I cant believe I was such a fool and believe that garbage
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
I remember Ellis
I thought Ellis was better
by firejasongarrett on Jan 5, 2012 8:09 PM CST reply actions
me too
Ellis is twice the player Spencer was
now if Spencer played in a 4-3 like Ellis did, different conversation
and Ellis moved to a 3-4 and still had success
Spencer is a 4-3 guy, the 4-3 team that signs him will get a great player for that system
I doubt many 3-4 teams will be in a bidding war for Spencer
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 5, 2012 8:11 PM CST up reply actions
LOL read SBNations Spencer scouting report
Assets
A top-tier athlete and hard worker. His tackling abilities are an ideal fit for a 3-4 system. Has the drive, smarts and physical tools to blitz hard and make some big plays.
Flaws
Still learning though steadily improving. Isn’t as much aware as he should on the field. Doesn’t read offenses well and will allow some plays in coverage.
Career Potential
Very reliable linebacker.
really? I would never say he was a smart player
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
Repeating it 10 tiems doesn't make it true
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
Repeating "Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!"
infinitely won’t make it true either
Spencer is not a smart football player
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 6, 2012 1:12 AM CST up reply actions
True but that's because he doesn't care enough to pay attention
The big problem with the 2010 team was too many players thought that they could just show up and win. They didn’t think it took any effort at all. They read their own press clipping and didn’t focus or practice hard at all. A Spencer admitted he was one of those guys. In 2011 he played the EXACT SAME WAY. I don’t care how many tackles he has, those type of guys do not win. They wilt when the pressure is on. They cave in the fourth quarter.
Many of those same quitters are were on the defense in 2011. But you can’t change all the players in one season. Reportedly the offense was getting rebuilt first, and the defense is getting rebuilt this off season. Many players are expected to be gone from the defense this year.
why not?
I can’t think of too many things hes done wrong on the field. Hes very consistent overall, that says smart to me unlike our oline.
He was really highly touted – I remember many draft analysts saying he was the most pro-ready pass rusher that year.
the fact that he oh so often is inches away from making a play that doesn't happen
doesn’t mean he is stupid.
Then again, I haven’t watched tape on him and WhiteWolf has me a little worried in that regard.
you know what Spencer does do good?
he forces fumbles, that is his best asset
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
BTB
BTB
is the new Hotel California
You can log out
any time you want……
but,
You can never leave !
hahahaahaaa…….muwahahahahaaaa……….door creaks too
redskins- bought by Snyder, OWNED by THE Cowboys !
Ryan- If only i could get that kind of aggression from my. Hey! You gonna eat that ?
Texans .....stand tall and REP !
It's not hard to figure out Spencer
Just look at his comments to start the season. regarding slacking off and not paying attention in practice. it was the “I didn’t know who that guy was speech” Well, look at the stats. that same Guy showed up this year. he started off focused and ready to go and then the real Spencer showed up. he’s a lazy unmotivated slacker who does just enough. Not the RKG. clearly :
by just4fun on Jan 5, 2012 8:27 PM CST via Android app reply actions
Ummmm
His stat lines for the past three seasons have been very similar.
60+ tackles and 6 or 5 sacks.
Not sure I buy this whole contract year, real Spencer showed up, discussion.
As for the quote, I wonder how much of it was regarding the team as a whole and not just himself.
On a side note, how many LOLB have had as many tackles as Spencer over the past three seasons? It is another sign he does not rush teh passer as often as those that get more sacks but total tackles in the 40s and 50s.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
My point wasn't that he had a good season,
My point was that he admitted he wasn’t trying hard and was slacking last year and he looked the same this year. Thus, he was still slacking this year.
We’ve all seen the flashes, he just doesn’t have the motor. He does just enough not to get fired. And he was talking specifically about himself not the team. I’m trying to find the quote
Among all 3-4 outside linebackers according to PFF:
2009 most tackles with 56
2010 second most tackles with 53 (James Harrison was credited with 65)
2011 second most tackles with 53 (Calvin Pace was first with 57)
?
Spencer has had over 60 total tackles the past three seasons…according to NFL
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
PFF keep their own stats, who makes a tackle can be subjective.
Apparently PFF disagrees with how many tackles Spencer actually made.
How many tackles Spencer made or didn’t make is up for debate.
What isn’t up for debate is the fact that Anthony Spencer is a QUITTER. He admitted it in the offseason.
NFL.com stats
Sorry, meant combined tackles
Clay Matthews, Lamaar Woodley, almost every LOLB has had fewer combined tackles the past three seasons than Spencer. Everyone loves sacks, but this means, A. Spencer isn’t a quitter
B. He rushes the passer less than the others
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
different services have different tackle totals
I remember the Cowboys saying a couple years ago that they had Bradie James with something like 30 more tackles than NFL had him at.
ProFootballFocus.com stats on Spencer
ratings of 3-4 outside linebackers (they list 28 whom played on at least 25% of their defensive snaps):
10th rated overall with a 10.1 rating
10th rated pass rusher with a 7.5 rating
21st rated pass coverage with a -1.5 rating
top rated run defender with a 9.5 rating
25th rated in penalties with a -5.4 rating
They list him with 5 sacks, 9 QB hits, 35 QB pressures and no batted passes
They also list him with 9 missed tackles which leads this group.
In passing, he was targeted with 19 times and allowed 14 completions and allowed a QB rating of 115.2
trend over time....
6th overall in 2008
3rd overall in 2009
9th overall in 2010
10th overall in 2011
clearly, if he was a quitter in 2010 (By his own admission)
Then he was a quitter in 2011. If he quits in the last two years of his contract, imagine how much he will quit with a new contract.
guess he is awesome in coverage
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 6, 2012 1:17 AM CST up reply actions
Here it is:
http://cowboysblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2011/09/anthony-spencer-i-was-mailing.html
“You can’t mail days in in this league,” Spencer told Dan Graziano, ESPN.com’s NFC East blogger, in a phone interview Thursday. “And I definitely found I was doing that last year.”
Spencer admitted that while reviewing game tapes from last season, he recognized mistakes that he couldn’t explain. Taking wrong angles and attacking the line of scrimmage at the wrong spots were a few errors he noticed. During his research, Spencer also discovered a lack of effort.
Clearly he is talking about himself, even getting into specifics about his mistakes. He had the same year this year, except half of his sacks were at the begining of the season, when he was motivated. But the real Spencer showed up, the slacker the quitter. Let him go to houston, we don’t need quitters on this team.
The quote you are beating into the ground
Spoke about technique, not effort. If anything, it spoke to a level of self-awareness few players express these days. There’s a reason Victor Butler is his back-up, he’s not as good a player.
No easy answer here, but context is important. Of all the priorities on D, where does LOLB rank for DAL? Ahead of CB, DL, S? Then prioritize accordingly. But f you make it a higher priority when it isn’t, DAL is back to the whack-a-mole Draft approach that has handicapped this team since the 90’s. Can’t let Best get in the way of Better. And 57 isn’t Better. I am all for upgrading the position when its time, but at the expense of other, more pressing needs? Why?
I don't make mistakes...just understandable bad choices
Straight out of Spencer's own mouth:
"You can’t mail days in in this league," Spencer told Dan Graziano, "And I definitely found I was doing that last year."
“Mailing it in” is about effort. And Spencer admitted it.
yea i get you guy...
I didnt read the article but i also remember Spencer getting caught up in some legal drama in 2008 and 2009.. out parting and stuff..
Anyways he beat the charge and said he will dedicate himself more to football in 2009.. and boom whola you A. Spencer best season as a cowboy..
by lostar2009 on Jan 6, 2012 5:00 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
See below from the story:
Spencer admitted that while reviewing game tapes from last season, he recognized mistakes that he couldn’t explain. Taking wrong angles and attacking the line of scrimmage at the wrong spots were a few errors he noticed. During his research, Spencer also discovered a lack of effort.
“So this year, definitely been focusing more in practice,” Spencer said. “That’s been my big thing, and I think it’s going to make a big difference.”
The 27-year-old added that he “definitely learned a lot last year.”
The entire first part is all about technique, the last line of that regards the effort to applying proper technique.
The bias is remarkable, I actually witnessed a thread commentary where his contribution was termed ‘nothing’ and play ‘hot garbage’ when he lead the team in tackles that game. Tough crowd.
Much rather have a player who has the self-awareness to see deficiencies and be honest about them. Not sure how that is ‘choosing to be average.’ As opposed to a supremely talented player who by many accounts was chronically late to meetings and up through Y2 still didn’t have a firm grasp of the playbook?
In order to pre-empt the Spencer apologist tag, I don’t have a dog in this fight. If he’s here, DAL is no worse, if he’s not, we would be with the other options currently on the roster. Or, we have to expend precious limited resources on a lesser priority. That’s what I object to.
I don't make mistakes...just understandable bad choices
Why do we hate Anthony Spencer so much?
It’s much like the first Rocky movie. He’s talented, smart and capable of being one of the best LBs maybe even better than Demarcus Ware. But he chooses to be average, and do just enough to keep his starting job. Imagine how dominant this defense could be if he played to his potential.
capable?
its been 6 years. time to take the rose glasses off. unless we have all been brainwashed by Jerry into believing in 8-8 seasons are good enough and waste our money on their salaries
he’s just not good. he’s played next to one of the greatest pass rushers ever and he looks like an average bum
The realist keepin it real amongst the surrealists
I was in Baghdad before these little B.G.'s was in they daddy-bags.
by starbury_to_s-jaxci2000 on Jan 5, 2012 9:49 PM CST up reply actions
he aint capable
5 years, nothing better than 6 sacks
if he is such a good player, with one on ones with RT’s, he should have more than six sacks
his best game of the year was against Marc Columbo
Spencer shows up like 2-3 games a year, no consistency
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 6, 2012 1:19 AM CST up reply actions
I don't see his potential
he gets singled up with regularity and 6 years into his career, he hasn’t even somewhat consistently beat his man to the qb. That screams lack of talent to me, which is strange because he was so highly touted in the draft. Even if he was lazy, his talent would show through every now and then right??
I don’t think hes lazy, I just think at this point, hes an average to slightly above average starter. You can win with him or try to upgrade his position.
at the end of the 2009 season he was playing better and making more plays
than D. Ware was. That’s why 2010 and 2011 were such big disappointments. He just started slacking. He admitted this after the 2010 season.
And his talent did show in September of 2011. Then he just shut it down. Apparently he’s one of those people who doesn’t have the desire or drive to be great. Average is good enough for him.
The guy is a 5 year pro
and we can only point to about 2 months, separated by an entire year, of great football from him.
Are you telling me you’re going to view those 2 months and say hes lazy, as opposed to looking at his body of work and saying hes an average-above average player who had a couple great games?
"maybe even better than DeMarcus Ware"
That basically tells me that you’re incapable of having something intelligent to say.
I was speaking of the end of the 2009 season. Spencer was playing really really well.
Obviously you don’t remember those games.
Yeah he had one good season whereas Ware was already on a HoF pace by then...
Quite frankly there’s no pass rusher out there that has a chance to be better than DeMarcus Ware. He’s already won the best of the generation and it’s not particularly close.
Priorities
I would like to replace Spencer but not at the expense of addressing the interior of our O-line or upgrading our secondary. I would rather spend draft picks in those areas and could live with Anthony for the next year or two.
Dallas has already spoke regarding Spencer
If they valued him at all, they would never have let him hit the open market. He’s clearly not a Jason Garrett type of guy given his admitted lack of effort. Maybe some team will sign him thinking they can motivate him, but at this stage of his career, I doubt you can coach the quit out of him but I doubt it. If Jerry wants him back, he can probably wait till the the start of next season, and sign him for the veteran minimum.
No chacne Spencer will be signed for veteran minimum
As for resigning early, it could be that he and his agent want more so they will allow the market to prove his real value…which will mean he won’t be here next season because someone will sign him for more than we are willing. Whether that is due to cap space or how “they really feel about Spencer” will remain an unknown to fans.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
If a player gets a reputation for being a quitter teams could shy away.
If a player still displays a lack of effort in his game in a contract year, teams may be a little careful with throwing millions of dollars at him.
You are the only one saying it
Based on one quote from Spencer after a terrible season…in which by the way his stats were one of the few Cowboys’ to not have a huge drop.
He may have been talking more about hte def in general but taking accountability for it.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
He clearly wasn't talking about the entire defense read the quote
He played the same this year as last year look at the stats.
And the year before
You can consider him a quitter because of one quote, but he was the only one who’s stats didn’t drop out. And clearly many more poeple than Spencer quit that year. You are trying to use a single quote to define a player yet there is no proof.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
Looking at him continuously not pressure the quarterback is proof enough
But oh yeah i forgot, we have this strange defense where the OLB isn’t supposed to pressure the quarterback.
How many 3-4 LOLB had more than 60 combined tackles three seasons in a row?
Someone who leads his positional group all the time in tackles is
A. Not terrible or a quitter
B. Likely rushing the passer less and has other assignments helping him garner sacks.
You can be sarcastic all you want, but clearly Spencer doesn’t rush the passer as often as Clay Matthews and lamaar Woodley.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
- Should read helping him garner tackles
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
"David Arkin can ball"
That says everything about you judgment.
You just can’t admit you were wrong. This defense is awful. A major problem is the pass rush. The primary function of the OLBs is to rush the passer. D.Ware is the only one who pressures the passer. We don’t need Spencer defending the run and keeping contain when Eli Manning is throwing the ball 47 times with out getting sacked. We need Spencer to put Eli on the ground because our secondary sucks. He did not pressure Eli and we lost. He is a part of the problem not the solution.
by just4fun on Jan 5, 2012 10:23 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
HAHA
Your attitude says a lot as well. And don’t give up on Arkin just yet.
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
I wasn't making a judgment on whether or not Arkin will ever be a good guard
but clearly he can’t ball right now, he was inactive for every single game, and was behind two four street free agents and a seventh round pick. Even when the starting and second string guards were hurt he wasn’t even activated to back up. Not a good start. Hopefully some off season strength and conditioning can make him a solid contributer. But to say “Arkin can Ball!” (based off of his one preseason start I presume) Says a lot about your evaluation skills.
This defense is awful. The second half of the season it was probably one of the worst in the league. It has been under multiple coordinators. That points to the talent. A serious talent up grade is needed. T new, Elam, Coleman, Spencer, etc. That ain’t gonna cut it. We need to build off of Jenkins (now there’s a guy who did turn it around this year, hopefully he can stay healthy), S. Lee and D. Ware. I’m even have hope for B. Carter who according to Broadus, showed improvement in reading defenses more quickly toward the end of the season.
I wouldn’t be using RR quotes to show how great a player he is. He hasn’t shown me anything yet. He has never played with talent on defense. That’s not saying he can’t coach, he just hasn’t shown it with results yet. Also, it’s obvious a Ryan method to brag about your players even if they suck, see Mark Sanchez for a good reference.
By the way FiTaT
How many different screen names do you have? I guess easier to get Rec’s that way, huh
"I am a true believer. Anthony Spencer will have 7 or more sacks in 2011 and David Arkin can ball!" - Kegbearer
"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." - Tom Landry
Now on twitter: @kegbearerBTB
Wrong again, Who is this FiTaT
I’m a life long Cowboys fan all the way from the 70’s I even know who Jesse Penn, Steven Pueller (his name doesn’t deserve to be spelled right) and Reggie Collier.
This the problem I have with you Rose colored glasses folks. Anytime a true fan is critical of the team, such as calling Wade Phillips training camp “camp cupcake”. You have to call some one out for not being a true fan. Well, you might want to consider that we are the true fans, and are not going to appreciate our team being turned into crap. The Wade Phillips IS to soft, he IS a terrible head coach. He will never be a head coach again. Hiring Wade was a big mistake. It’s why I’m soooo glad Raf isn’t here anymore.
By the way FiTaT
classy keg.
sorry by just4fun isn’t me. although I’m very much enjoying his commentary. pretty articulate. I’ve been waiting for other people to notice things like …
You just can’t admit you were wrong
For God and country - Geronimo
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Jan 6, 2012 7:30 AM CST up reply actions
That's because he's not that good at it.
by Baked Potato Soup on Jan 6, 2012 12:51 AM CST up reply actions
lol
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 6, 2012 1:16 AM CST up reply actions
dude you cant win with Keg lol.
his stats & opinion is the only one that counts. everyone else is just ignorant or dont know football
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
give him 50 mill then if he is so valuable
and they already handed out big dough to average players in Gerald and Orlando so what would have changed in the last 15 years our “expert” GM has been running things.
not to worry though, Frenchie will take up all his money and then he can go rot in Oakland or Buffalo
The realist keepin it real amongst the surrealists
I was in Baghdad before these little B.G.'s was in they daddy-bags.
by starbury_to_s-jaxci2000 on Jan 5, 2012 9:46 PM CST reply actions
good point
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
by Archie Barberio on Jan 6, 2012 1:16 AM CST up reply actions
If we can't get Cliff Avril or Mario Williams then I would resign him
a better secondary may help get more sacks
Sean Lissemore = The next Bruce Smith
thats what the other Ryan thought but we all saw how that worked out.
a better secondary may help get more sacks
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
He Sucks
I don’t care about sacks because he was single covered all year and did nothing..Sounds like Jerry Jones wrote this post.
Couple of notes...
The Cowboys are a mediocre team. That is to say, they’re not bad but they’re not good. It seems somewhat funny to me how many fans are disappointed – I am not. This is the expectation that I had (if I think my car can run a 10 sec 1/4 mile and it does, even though I may race against someone who goes faster I, I’m not disappointed).
Also, the Cowboys aren’t just the players. The Cowboys include the coaches, GM and practice squad. And, they ALL are mediocre.
Third, the Cowboys have made improvements from last year but they haven’t improved any MORE than most other teams. Lots of others (Lions, Giants, Packers, Saints, etc.) all made many more improvements – some by the draft, some by free agency, some by just better play/coaching. The Cowboys didn’t really improve at all defensively overall as their run defense improved, their pass defense worsened. Newman is actually stealing money from Jerry (sneaking into his house, cracking the secret safe and taking money and leaving). It’s difficult to tell the impact of the new coaching/scheme of Ryan as the players were just that bad in the secondary.
Lastly, the main issue with Dallas is that they overvalue players. Many of the contracts signed in the last 8 years have been completely over-estimated. Overpaid players include Romo, Free, Scandrick, Ratliff, Newman, Leonard Davis and Bobby Carpenter. EVerytime a player is overpaid, the opportunity cost to sign someone else is severly diminished – not to mention the lack of production that might occur from the player.
Until the real “PROBLEM” is solved, the Cowboys will never be succesful in winning the Championship. They may improve, make the playoffs and possibly a sexy lil run towards the big one, but with the injuries that occur each year, they won’t be able to sustain a long term push due to $ being tied up on players who are either hurt, no longer produce or leave in FA due to better pay.
Romo definitely isn't overpaid, his contract is a real bargain
Top 5 qbs in this league make much more than Romo and his 102 qb rating has him ranked 4th this season.
Huge bargain.
In Romo we Trust
on that note
Our cap situation the last 5 years is borderline hilarious.
3 of our 4 best players (Romo, Witten, Ratliff) were severely underpaid for much of the last 5 years. Ware was too but hes getting fair market value now. And yet we were still in cap hell! Its amazing when you think about it.
Ok, SOOO
Then why not move him to the inside spot (replacing either, Brookings or James) and get a pass rusher in the draft. He would STILL be able to handle the coverage/ run stopping role the author shows is his primary role now. (I’m all for less NEEDS in ANY area of the team!)
GO COWBOYS! GET SOME BIG D! AH-OOO-AH!
Can we at least agree that Marty B sucks?
(although he is a terrific blocker, you don’t draft run blocking TE in the 2nd round)
Yes...
Total underachiever. He had the skills, probably better as a third rounder where players have a lower success rate. It’s okay if you have a few years where your third round pick ends up kinda “meh.” However, with the second round you should either go for higher upside or a higher floor. I liked the second round picks of guys like Bruce Carter and Sean Lee, first round grade but injuries or something else make them available later. Bennett? Ehh, what did they think he was the next Antonio Gates? If that’s the case I have an even bigger problem with the pick. One, players like him are extremely rare. Two, no one is “the next ______” every player is different and should be evaluated as such. It’s fine for draftnicks to draw comps to players to help the layperson fan understand the type of player a particular player is. However, no one is the next ____, things just don’t work that way. I particularly hate the pick because they already had a Hall of Famer in Jason Witten, two tight end offenses typically don’t work that well. It’s working in New England, yes I know, but Belichick is also in New England and he’s probably a top three head coach of all time…maybe even the best ever, he can make anything work. Short of that, it’s not exactly a recipe for success. He was basically drafted to be his flanker, but that’s a bad decision because A.) don’t draft complimentary players with a high pick. Unless there’s a position that requires two starters like WR, CB, OLB, etc. B.) Tight end is sort of a secondary position on the roster. Sure great tight ends are pretty valuable, but great players at any position are valuable. Tight end isn’t a key position by any means, there’s far more valuable positions and they should be tended to ahead of the tight end spot.
As to whether or not he deserves the spot on the team. Well, if he was anyone else BUT Martellus Bennett I would say yes. However, the fans, and more importantly the team, view him as something he’s not. He turned it around towards the end of the season, but his past performance and his attitude on the team suggest that he’s probably not worth keeping around at the price he’ll cost. If he’ll get paid like a blocking TE then I have no issue, unless you think Phillips will do what he did.
Hmmm
That’s more encouraging about Spencer than I would’ve thought. I could see resigning him if it isn’t for too much $$. That way, you don’t go into the draft with a hole. I mean, the guy can at least PLAY.
by Cowboys Dominance on Jan 6, 2012 1:05 AM CST reply actions
That's different
If you think Butler’s better and cheaper that’s fine. However, you’re approaching Spencer like he knocked up your daughter and left. It seems personal with you and that gives me the impression that you’re not being reasonable about things.
just draft Melvin Ingram and end this discussion already
if the Cowboys wanted Spencer, they would have been in negotiations with him and his agent
but good old Jerry could throw us a curveball and sign him
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
Take the BPA. Victor Butler can play and if he started would have more sacks than
Anthony Spencer did. It’s not even a question.
Really?
To replace Spencer? He’s 6-2 275. Way too huge to play the position, he’s more of a Spears replacement than a Spencer replacement. Get DeCastro.
I am slightly skeptical of him as well, but the combine will answer the questions I am most interested in.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
I wish there was a highlight and lowlight video for Spencer on youtube
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
I can't wait to hear everyone say how they never like Spencer.
Remember so many were so adamant that J. Williams was a future star. When he couldn’t even play special teams.
I like....
Howley, Jordan and Edwards……D.D. Lewis too……maybe they could help…….
or Hollywood!
"Triumph of the uncluttered mind" - Blaine Nye on Clint Longley, 1974
I think the Cowboys attempt to re-sign Spencer
but they won’t break the bank doing it. He’s definitely the 2nd best OLB on the team and really we have nobody at this time to replace him.
Counting on a FA or rookie to improve on his production is very risky.
In Romo we Trust
V.Butler seems like a decent stop gap to replace Spencer & comes at a way cheaper price.
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
sure would be nice to have a defense that could kill the other opposing teams offense
and spare Romo the pressure of having to play near perfect just to lose by 3 or 7
The realist keepin it real amongst the surrealists
I was in Baghdad before these little B.G.'s was in they daddy-bags.
by starbury_to_s-jaxci2000 on Jan 6, 2012 11:05 PM CST up reply actions
wow, it's only a post-season for us for like two minutes, and now everyone's playing GM.
not General Manager, but rather Genius of Managers.
sad truth is, no one gives an effin’ shit about what we think about players, who should be kept and who should be cut.
especially not Jerry, but last time i checked it’s his bucks that go behind the game checks. i’m sure he will sit down for like a thousand times with Stephen, Jason and Rob, establish salary brackets for every player (i.e. how much he is willing to spend on a given player, $0 means a cut).
of course Spencer will demand more money than most of us would give to him, but that’s business. that’s called holding up in your position and having five years’ experience.
Jerry will decide which water he wants to put his feet in: re-signing or drafting. i’m not sold on drafting a new player, i think many of us was in awe when seeing Spencer’s video highlights from his last college year – especially Wade, too. but unfortunately:
1, for every Von Miller there’s a Vernon Gholston waiting in the wings;
2, i know we all would like Pro Bowl and future HoF caliber guys in all starting positions (or at least half of them), that is only possible if you have double the cap od other teams. good luck finding one;
3, it is not only an OLB that makes a defense, it is a defense that makes an OLB, too.
i’m sure we could afford sending Ware and Spencer after the QB on every single play had we have the quality in the secondary the way the Steelers do. if Polamalu was our safety, i’m sure Ryan would not think a moment about having Spencer cover anybody, but rather send him hunting for all the time. but the names on the back of the jerseys say Elam and Sensabaugh, and that is definitely not centerfielder-type material.
i suggest everyone take a week off in terms of Cowboys football, i promise no one will miss anything. our show only starts at the end of February.
Pretty reasonable take
I like that you brought up Vernon Gholston. HE is a bust. Spencer, Felix, Bennett, are not busts. They contributed in some form to their team. Gholston however, just took up space and made everyone else feel like a fat ass.
Make Spencer better
How Quinton Coples and Jason Jones would make Spencer better
spencer has a role......
Spencer has a role and plays it well. He is EXCELLENT against the run. Both he and ware are. We very rarely get beat wide. Its up the MIDDLE folks where Ratliff is just not the answer at NT. Move him to LDE and rotate a NT and I’d try spears there. If we want to help Spenceer(who is NOT D WARE) then lets get someone who can cover a WR for more than 0.5sec. Make them hold onto the ball a bit and he’ll get there along with ware/ratliff. But we don’t make QB’s hold on to the ball. Whether its TNEW being 15 yd off the WR,scandrick not turning around, Mike Made of Glass Jenkins playing hurt and ineffective to Brady/James in ability to cover anyone. this team has sooooo many warts that Jerry needs to be held accountable for. With the 14th pick please select DeCastro from Stanford if he’s there. Its a passing league, lets protect our asset in Romo, and then in turn build our def. via FA.
Yes, Spencer Does
Have a role; it’s called “read and react”; which is why I said they should move him (Spencer) to the ILB (get rid of Brookings and James, they’re worn out) and bring in a Ware like pass rusher to help him from the other side. ENOUGH with this; MORE OLINEMEN in the first round crap. Unless they can play in pass coverage they aren’t going to help the DEFENSE! Or, did you forget about the blown leads?
GO COWBOYS! GET SOME BIG D! AH-OOO-AH!
Agreed our def was terrible last yr. But so was our line play especially the interior. If the cb from ’bama or lsu are available you take them. But with l jones and barkley not coming out both will be gone. So you will go BPA where at 14 if decastro is there its a no brainer. Decastro is everything advertized. Think STEVE HUTCHINSON. THE worst thing jerry can do is to reach on a player like janoris jenkins (who got suspended at no. ala too). Lets get back to long strong possession drives mixed in with deep passes because our qb can take a 7 step drop. Limit the def time on the field and yes some of those late game collapses and december dont happen cuz unlike vs NE OR NYG we couldnt run the ball to kill the clock! Im not arguing with you about rd 1 lineman but Decastro is special
by gasman8 on Jan 6, 2012 11:00 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
if Dallas doesn't build the DL/OLB & OL then the rest doesnt matter.
all the past super bowl winnerr/contenders had great DLs & OLs. heck the same old teams that have success in the playoffs build from within the trenches before anything else. right now were not beating the Giants or Eagles with the current pass rush or OL.
the Jets D was a bunch of fruads & they have the best secondary in the NFL, it doesn’t do any good when you play against the better teams. you could have 2 Revis islands & it wont get you to a super bowl.
fix the DL/OLB & OL……..
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
I agree with what you are saying Keg
But I think Spencer wants to move on from the Cowboys to a market where the fans would appreciate his talent.
You have to play this game like somebody just hit your mother with a two-by-four. Dan Birdwell. Oakland Raiders
How do you want to be rememberd. Go out there and play every play like it is your last play. Be remembered as the person you want to be for the rest of your life. Spike Dykes, Midland Lee and Texas Tech Coach.
Spencer-Ware is as good as any combination in the league if not the best...
Anthony is great in coverage and can run down QB’s, like Ware he’s also great in late 4th quarter, i.e. Washington in week 3.
This team has holes obviously, but OLB is certainly not one, this is almost like comparing Jones-Murray and Bryant-Austin… other teams have similar tandems but nobody has a better one.
I’ll get off my TNew kick and say CB depth is a problem… Scandrick and Ball give us depth but someone needs to replace TNew and its not anyone on the ball club now… you could say the same at S, ILB, DE and OG. Lots of opportunity for improvement.
We had a good draft, Smith, Murray and Nagy all started… we need another good core of starters and a key Free Agent or 2. What if we had picked up Asomugha?? Would we still be out of the playoffs?
Make Spencer a DE
Frankly, I’d convert him to a defensive end, which is the position he played in college before the conversion to LOLB. To me, you make a good point about his stats, but we all watched the games. He may have a few sacks, but guys like Ryan Kerrigan or Clay Matthews put way more pressure on the QB or were more disruptive to the pocket. If you wanna give me a stat, how many QB pressures did Spencer get credit for? I think he’s too slow to consistently pressure the pocket, which is why he just doesn’t get there. Plus, don’t you think that if Clay Matthews, etc. had a DWare on the other side that he’d have way more sacks? Nah, make Spencer a DE and draft somebody else. Its crazy that you have a guy like Ware on the side getting nearly 20 sacks and Spencer can only muster 6. Not good enough.
by The Dark Knightt on Jan 7, 2012 10:24 AM CST reply actions
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