Why we should trade DeMarcus Ware...
by Plinkostar on Jan 6, 2012 12:56 AM CST
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I feel like a horrible person to even suggest this but it has to be written.
Disclaimer, Ware is my favorite player on the 'boys. I love everything about him. I absolutely will argue with anyone he is the premier pass rusher in the entire NFL; Jared Allen be damned. Without a doubt I believe he is already a first ballot HOF player and still has at least 4 years of playing at an elite level. So why the ^*&(* would we trade him?
Thinking...
Confusion...
Here is why. Ware will not last forever. We are not close enough to kid ourselves that we can really take advantage of his skills and we are almost certainly not winning a SB with Ware in his prime. Does anyone remember October 12th 1989? Here is a refresher Dallas trades best player for a kings ransom.
The man, the myth, the legend Jimmy realized the team was not close enough to win a SB so they decided to trade Herschel Walker for (conditionally) 3 first round draft picks, 2 second round picks and a few other things.
Doesn't this sound a little too familiar?
We had some of the pieces we needed (QB, WR, FB, etc) but we weren't close enough to get there without doing something drastic (secondary/interior oline). Are you telling me the Pats wouldn't trade at least their 2 first rounders this year and 2 second round picks and their 4th guard or DB to get DeMarcus? Wouldn't Atlanta offer something crazy for Ware considering how much they offered to get Julio Jones? We just need a few teams bidding on him to drive the price up. We could also help out DeMarcus to go to a real contender before he no longer is able to fight through triple teams.
Interceptions are more valuable than sacks anyway, if you look at the top 3 career sack leaders and compare them to the top 3 interception leaders the amount of Superbowl's won is 3-1 in favor of the interceptions.
I already admitted my love for D-Ware and it would be terribly difficult to watch him play for another team but with the premium placed on sacks and the number of teams that think they are close I'm convinced we could fleece someone out of enough to put us in contention in 2-3 years. The one downside to Ware right now for the Cowboys is he is so great/nice but he will not get on his defensive teammates and ride them if they are doing bad. Also since everyone knows he wouldn't try to hurt the other teams players they are not scared and don't have to rush their throws. I hate to say it but DWare is too good and nice and it actually is a bit of a detriment to the team. Because who can do that if he isn't? He is clearly the best defensive player right now. Why couldn't he get up in Newman's face? Or Almost Anthony? Or Scandrick for getting embarrassed over and over and being out of position so much? Sean Lee is the only player almost good enough where he could do that and people would have to listen but he still has a little bit more to prove.
I want to put the fear in the QBs we face that on any snap it could be the last of their career but that does not happen. It all starts with the leaders. I hate to put so much of the problems on Ware because like I said he is my favorite player and I have a mad man crush on the guy; but if you are clearly the leader you need to act like it. To use an old horse training analogy sometimes you give out the sugar and sometimes you give the whip.
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How much would
we have to get for it to be worth it? Everyone has a price.
5 first round picks?
Jared Allen, a Williams brother and 2 picks?
What?
I wouldn't consider it for less than 5 first round picks that were somehow guaranteed to be top-15 picks and if they all came in the next two years
And that’s just my starting price.
I think DeMarcus Ware is could well be one of the best defenders… ever. Walker was a different case because he never produced after the trade, and I think Jimmy saw that one coming.
I just can’t justify selling the heart-and-soul for this defense, a class-act guy and a fan favorite, for a few picks that may or may not pan out.
by Admiral Dallas on Jan 6, 2012 1:37 AM CST up reply actions
Sorry for the double post, but my train of thought brought me back here.
Say you did it for three first rounders—what if you’re trading DeMarcus Ware for Marcus Spears, Bobby Carpenter, and Anthony Spencer?
by Admiral Dallas on Jan 6, 2012 1:40 AM CST up reply actions
haha
you’re good man. It would have to be a good offer for sure. I don’t think given how rare a talent Ware is that we wouldn’t get at least an offer of like 3 firsts and 2 seconds. Or a proven player 2 firsts and 2 seconds. In this DB heavy draft wouldn’t that help Dallas out a ton to be able to fix our entire secondary?
No what he's saying is that you don't know what you're getting from the draft picks...
they COULD be Spears, Carpenter, and Spencer.
Newman is Bad!
by Feeling Blue & Silver on Jan 6, 2012 10:52 AM CST up reply actions
I think you need to go check the stats
Walker was a different case because he never produced after the trade, and I think Jimmy saw that one coming.
Herschel played 8 more seasons after 1989 and there was definitely production.
Here’s a link to refresh you memory.
OK, now what was your point?
Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack.
~Sun Tzu
by CDMac24 on Jan 6, 2012 11:16 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Herschell Walker was traded after his first 1,000 yard season and in the middle of his second.
Minnesota thought they were getting a great, young player. Do you know how many 1,000 yard seasons he had with the Vikings? 0 (zero).
Just checked the link. I wasn’t aware that Walker had another 1,000 season… with Philly. But look at his post 1989 career as compared to his pre 1989 career. Does that match the expectations Minnesota had? Is that the kind of production you’d give a crap load of draft picks for? I didn’t think so.
Sure, Herschel was in the NFL for 8 more seasons. So my point was this: Jimmy Johnson knew that Herschel wasn’t going to be an all-pro, though that’s the payload Minnesota gave up for him. Go back and look at the stats that you provided me. What was YOUR point?
by Admiral Dallas on Jan 6, 2012 12:03 PM CST up reply actions
Actually, Walker wasn't running well with Dallas in early 1989
Look, Minnesota thought Walker was their last piece to a Super Bowl puzzle. His first two plays as a Viking were a 51 yard kickoff return and then a 48 yard run. Then he fizzled out. Mike Lynn obviously made a huge mistake in giving so much for Walker. But look at Walker’s next two years with the Vikings. He scored 19 TDs and average 4.2 yards per carry. The Vikings just barely gave him the ball! He was a workhorse back who needed 20-25 carries a game, plus a few more receptions. It’s my take that the Vikings underutilized or misused Walker.
You make a very valid point with the Vikings misusing Walker
All I’m saying is that they valued him as an All-Pro HoFer after his 1,500 yard season, and paid as such for him but never got close to that sort of value back for him.
by Admiral Dallas on Jan 6, 2012 12:57 PM CST up reply actions
Roger that
OK, we are saying the same thing…..
Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack.
~Sun Tzu
I don't think Jimmy knew
whether or not Herschel was going to be an All-Pro player. Obviously, he does not have a crystal ball.
And it doesn’t really matter. I think he would have made the trade even if he thought Herschel was going to put up big numbers (I would have).
This isn’t about whether Jimmy, Jerry, Vikings, etc. projected Herschel to be an All-Pro, it’s about the idea that both sides thought they were getting a good deal.
Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack.
~Sun Tzu
Herschel Walker should be a HOFer
As quoted from wikipedia.
Walker rushed for 5,562 yards in his USFL career.10 His combined rushing numbers for the USFL and the NFL (13,787 yards) would place him 5th All-Time on the NFL’s career rushing list.11 In 12 NFL seasons, Walker gained 8,225 rushing yards, 4,859 receiving yards, and 5,084 kickoff-return yards.12 This gave him 18,168 total combined net yards, ranking him second among the NFL’s all-time leaders in total yardage at the time of his retirement; as of the start of the 2007 NFL season, ten years after his retirement, he still ranks eighth.13 He also scored 84 touchdowns: 61 rushing, 21 receiving and two kick off returns for touchdowns.12 Walker is the only other player besides Derrick Mason to have 10,000+ yards from scrimmage and 5,000+ return yards (all of which were on kickoff returns).
He is the only player to gain 4,000 yards three different ways: rushing, receiving and kickoff returns. He is one of six players (Jim Brown, Lenny Moore, Marcus Allen, Marshall Faulk, and Thurman Thomas) to exceed 60 touchdowns rushing and 20 touchdowns receiving. Another NFL record is that he is the only player with a 90+ yard reception, 90+ yard run and a 90+ yard kickoff return all in the same season (1994). He is the only player to record an 84+ yard touchdown run and an 84+ yard touchdown reception, in the same game (December 14, 1986). That same day, he had 100 yards rushing and 100 yards receiving. Walker is currently ranked eighth all time in all-purpose yards with 18,168, despite spending his first three seasons in the USFL
As you can see, HW had a HOF career. But since the “Professional Football Hall of Fame” only considers stats from the NFL & AFL he will never be included.
idk
I doubt any team would be willing to give up a lot unless they were a serious contender and that would only return low draft picks
problem is, who replaces Ware? Spencer, LOL
"I got the 9 on me so I think I'm Romo"
Fabolous
yeah we'd have a hole at pass rush
but at least other teams wouldn’t know ok triple team this one player and then we don’t have to worry about anything else.
Trade him to the Pats who have a boatload of picks.
Return to a 4-3 and then the search for the hard to find 3-4 pieces wouldn’t be necessary.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Jan 6, 2012 8:53 AM CST up reply actions
Why do you hate the 3-4 so much?
It can be very sucessful as long as you have the right personnel. Which the Cowboys haven’t done.
Let me be the scouting director AND the GM
Thats why he hates it.
Its really hard to find personnel especially without a proper GM.
"Obviously, I felt like if I ran into my lineman there it was going to help the play" ~Tony Romo
Was this a D(w)ARE?
If this were any other site, I bet the reaction would be much akin to what someone with achromatosis could expect when they yell an insensitive racial slur in the middle of Watts… in the 80’s…
As it is, I expect for enlightening conversation on the matter. Rec for you for broaching a sensitive subject and inspiring debate, whether or not I agree.
Barring some ludicrous trade offer, I wouldn't even consider this.
The answer is to put more talent around Ware (which is doable). The circumstances of the Herschel Walker back then and Demarcus Ware are completely different.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
Correct
The guy who was in charge back then was only concerned with winning a championship. The guy in charge these days is concerned with both marketability and winning. Dware is too marketable to trade. Jerry needs his marquee players to sell jerseys and tickets. We can’t expect him to draft O-linemen in the first round and jettison his marquee players.
"That's Jason's decision, but he doesn't need to be making that one by himself." --Jerry Jones, 12-26-11
No the team was MUCH worse back then.
Newman is Bad!
by Feeling Blue & Silver on Jan 6, 2012 10:53 AM CST up reply actions
..... sorry not MUCH... just "much"...lol
Newman is Bad!
by Feeling Blue & Silver on Jan 6, 2012 10:53 AM CST up reply actions
I don't know if the Roster was much worse back then (even if its little "m" much)
The walker trade was 4 games into the 1989 season. The 1989 Roster included:
Troy Aikman
Daryl Johnston
Michael Irvin
Kevin Gogan
Nate Newton
Mark Stepnoski
Mark Tuinei
Jim Jeffcoat
Tony Tolbert
Ken Norton, Jr.
Bill Bates
Can you identify eleven core players on the current roster that would serve as a cornerstone to a dynasty like the players listed above? Maybe you can. But the point is I don’t think the situation is all that different than in 1989.
"That's Jason's decision, but he doesn't need to be making that one by himself." --Jerry Jones, 12-26-11
Few people remember of those offensive linemen on that list.....
only Stepnoski was drafted by Jimmy. Landry left some pretty good talent. His coaching philosophy had become stale.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Jan 7, 2012 6:11 AM CST up reply actions
This is very true.
Creasy is right as well. There’s not THAT much talent lacking on the defensive side of the ball.
It’s not as if we’re devoid of quality starters. In terms of holes, this team only needs one more starting corner, a strong safety, and a pass-rushing defensive end. Sure, you need maybe a serviceable guy to compete with Scandrick and some ILB depth, but there are teams in much worse situations.
I don’t think this defense is so bad as to merit trading away its best player to get 11 new starters.
by Admiral Dallas on Jan 6, 2012 12:06 PM CST up reply actions
Well agree to disagree.
Jerry was the owner cared about marketing in both instances so I don’t see that difference like you do.
Anyways, the real difference is between a RB on an absolutely talent-starved team and the best pass-rusher in the league (arguably) on an average team.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
Upon reading down, I would clarify that perhaps 1989 wasn't as talent-starved as first perceived
but that is upon hindsight. Troy had yet to break out and our defense was still pretty bad. We already have a QB and the best pass-rusher in the league. No need to change that when we can realistically surround them with talent to improve the team.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
Trade
The difference between DeWare and Walker is that Walker was although a Pro Bowl player was on his way down his best years were behind him, DeWare best years are still in front of him.
A team would need to offer the farm for the next 3 years at least a 1,2 & 3 in year 1, a 1st and a 2nd in year and a 1st and 3rd in year 3.
No way Walker was a back in decline when he was traded
he was 27 and had 3-4 productive all-purpose years ahead of him.
There’s also no way we’d get more than one first rounder for Ware in this proposed scenario. But if the Cowboys were to get an offer for two I’d take it in a second!
LOL ... looks at David... pffffffffffffffffffffffffft... calls 911
crazy man running around the BTB needs to be committed to the funny farm…..
Sirens Sounding all around.
Little men in their little white suits come and take David away!
RexP
exactly David
I think people are having some revisionist memories about Herschel. He had quite a few productive years after he left Dallas. He never hit 1500+ like he did in 88, but he was still solid.
Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack.
~Sun Tzu
Not Walker's fault that the Vikes didnt know how to use him correctly
"This is a simple game, you throw the ball, you hit the ball, you catch the the ball, you got it?!"
+1
The ESPN show 10 reason why you can’t blame the Vikings for the Herschel Walker trade.
Said the worse thing the Viking did was not to use Walter properly or to adjust their offense for him.
by Jonathan Stern on Jan 6, 2012 5:15 PM CST up reply actions
Bull...
His best years are not ahead of him. And to be honest, we don’t need all that for it to be worth it. That just guarrantees that we rip off the other team. Imagine this team with three EXTRA first rounders… and EXTRA second rounders. In two years we would have a new team. I get how great Ware is, but everyone seems to be missing the point that we’ve been Embarrassed regularly WITH WARE on this team.
Newman is Bad!
by Feeling Blue & Silver on Jan 6, 2012 10:56 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly
I think Ware and Witten for that matter are eminently tradeable because they’re talented but there’s a solid chance that they will be hitting the wall soon. So let’s get something of value for them while we can! Why can’t the Cowboys FOR ONCE be ahead of the player curve in this regard?
by DavidH22 on Jan 6, 2012 11:33 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
because jerry is actually good at what he does
his stars are so likeable that were all going to hold on 2 years too long
if the Colts want him then yes !!.. : ))
Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.
Winston Churchill
We Fight On !!,That's The Cowboys Way !!.
Go Cowboys!!
by scotscowboyfan on Jan 6, 2012 5:29 AM CST up reply actions
duh. the first overall for starters.
"That's Jason's decision, but he doesn't need to be making that one by himself." --Jerry Jones, 12-26-11
Be patient dave, some take a little more time to catch up.
Newman is Bad!
by Feeling Blue & Silver on Jan 6, 2012 10:57 AM CST up reply actions
No, I do follow.
Who would you take with the first overall?
I'd trade that badboy to the highest bidder
more picks, more picks, more picks.
Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack.
~Sun Tzu
... future ring of honor, future HOF! nuff said.
"If life were logical, men would ride sidesaddle"- Paul Harvey
Yeah. I'm Sorry Jace. That was rude.
"That's Jason's decision, but he doesn't need to be making that one by himself." --Jerry Jones, 12-26-11
Take LUCK and Trade him for 3 first rounders!!!!
Their #1 this year and 2 more over the next two years plus a couple 2nds and any team with a need for QB would be willing to pay that for him… why? Because of the rookie Salary Cap. They get a top QB for 6 years and don’t have to break the bank to do it.
RexP
Ok, say you trade Luck for those picks.
Who plays quarterback with this current OL(subject to change obviously during the offseason)? I’m not saying we shouldn’t trade Romo, just wanting to see where people are going with this.
LOL you don't trade ROMO
You trade LUCK!!!! @ 3 first and 2 2nds and maybe even a couple 3rds it is reported that’s what you would need to get that first pick in the draft. If we could get it for just Ware… then you could get a decent amount for him… Now if you could get the 1st overall this year and something else that would be even better. I doubt that Indy would go much further but other teams would.
RexP
Um, are we talking about the same thing?
How would Dallas even have a chance to get luck? This thread we are currently on was in relation to Romo’s trade value.
Oh, we aren't.
Sorry, this whole thread was in relation to the value of Romo started by lostar. It was in the idea that Romo was traded. Not the Ware article. I think we confused each other. Or I should say, at least I am confused.
sorry thought this was about trading Ware to the Colts
Indy would never trade for Romo in the first place they have Peyton and will have Luck with the 1st pick… or they will trade their first pick and maybe get two more plus some 2nds and 3rds .. personally for them I would just choose Luck and let him backup Peyton for the next couple years… and then take over.
RexP
I don't see Manning in a Colt uniform ever again.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Jan 7, 2012 6:22 AM CST up reply actions
We don't have enough to get Luck. There is no combination of players and picks
that would bring Luck in a trade. Ware wouldn’t do it. Romo wouldn’t do it. Together they wouldn’t warrant that pick.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Jan 7, 2012 6:21 AM CST up reply actions
I get that your the resident pessimist but
There is no combination of players and picks
that would bring Luck in a trade.
There is always combination or players and picks that would warrant any pick.
In this particular scenario Romo’s value is negated, however Ware + picks and maybe other players could get it done. Would it be good value or make sense? Probably not, but that was not the question.
Everyone has their price.
Have you spoken with Irsay anout this ?
The dynamics of building a team begins with qb. He is the highest rated qb since Elway. They won’t take older players plus picks for a 12 year starter at the most important position on the field. Romo and Ware mght get you 3 good years. Maybe. Luck would bring long term stability and a chance to win a superbowl for more than 3 years.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Jan 7, 2012 8:33 AM CST up reply actions
Btw this has nothing to do with being negative.
It has everything to do with being smart.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Jan 7, 2012 8:33 AM CST up reply actions
The semantics are ancillary
to the fact that the statement no combination of picks/players can net Luck is completely false.
Football is a business, period. When the payout and benefits outweigh the cost, for any smart person like Irsay, you take the deal.
What combination will it take to out value the pick? I don’t know and would likely be ridiculously crippling, but to simply say that it just can’t be done is preposterous. An accurate statement would be
“no combination of picks/ players that benefited the team would obtain Luck.”
by TheCowboyWay on Jan 7, 2012 10:11 AM CST up reply actions
No worries.
Honestly want to see where folks are going with this. Its all good to say trade for picks, but like others have……………Spencer, Carpenter, Jones(while decent, not first round decent), Ekuban, and Spears have been picks. They were first rounders at that.
Romomight fetch a first rounder, maybe
either way, both of these players deserve to be on teams that have a chance to win a championship…
maybe?? LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Jan 6, 2012 12:40 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Sounds crazy but then maybe it's not so crazy.
it would have to be a blockbuster trade for me to seriously consider trading Ware.
i prefer to think that Garrett can get him help in FA and the draft.
like you i hate seeing a truly great player having to play alongside so many subpar players, look to Garrett getting him help this year and continue to enjoy a truly brilliant player.
Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.
Winston Churchill
We Fight On !!,That's The Cowboys Way !!.
Go Cowboys!!
i would consider this trade for 2 first round picks plus a pro bowler or an all pro
You know someone like Mankins
by lostar2009 on Jan 6, 2012 5:30 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Ware is the very best in the league at his position
you would have to use probably on average seven first round picks to find a comparable replacement
but basically it comes down to this evaluation: are we in a massive rebuild where we just need to stockpile draft picks and throw them at nearly every position on the team? or are we a few good players away from serious contention? I think it’s the latter. Trading Ware is a good strategy if you’re in the former situation. What we need is a few choice additions.
you're as delesional as Jerry
a few good players away? all we have are a few good players. I say we need more than we have right now. I’m not sure I’d do anything with Ware, but I’d listen to offers.
Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack.
~Sun Tzu
by CDMac24 on Jan 6, 2012 11:31 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, first of all, I don't think we're as bad as we were in 1989
but if the Patriots, for example, offered two 1st rounders and 2 2nd rounders, then maybe the Cowboys consider it, but it’s risky. You’re trading away the best defensive player, future HOFer, for a few draft picks, which have low odds of yielding HOF talent. I think I’d rather just hope to strike gold with our own picks than trade away our current stockpile.
"How 'Bout them Cowboys!"---Jimmy Johnson
"...and the Cowboys...STUN the Bills!"--ESPN MNF
Not to mention that this draft
seems void of any true blue chip talent outside of Luck and maybe a couple others…which further devalues the value of the picks.
I totally agree with you Scott
but the reason I do is because it would hurt to lose a HOF player to another team and lose out on that player being identified with the Cowboys during HOF induction. That’s why it’s hard for fans (and hard for Jerry for the same reasons) to look on the business side of things. We tend to get wrapped up in the emotions of things rather than being completely objective.
Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack.
~Sun Tzu
a top 10 pick and go for it
those OLB are a dime a dozen with more coming out each yr plus his play is deteriorating fast due to playing hurt and he`s about to run smack into a wall. Also subtract the sacks he`s had this yr where the other team just flat out forgot about him and left him unblocked and you`d have single digit sack total. Great guy, great player but we got our value out of him and more…sell high.
since when is 19.5 sacks declining?
you people baffle me
by kitten mittens on Jan 6, 2012 10:01 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
Yeah his greatness is obvious....
Could you imagine a situation where we had J-Pierre Paul and a Von Miller on the same team… then TWO MORE FIRST ROUNDERS!!! Plus we’d have extra 2nds(keep in mind the crazy amount of talent still found in the second). Understanding that nothing is guarranteed it could make our team MONUMENTALLY better. however at the same time if we miss in the draft we would certainly be worse….
Newman is Bad!
by Feeling Blue & Silver on Jan 6, 2012 11:02 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
or a dime a dozen?
"That's Jason's decision, but he doesn't need to be making that one by himself." --Jerry Jones, 12-26-11
I don't think anyone forgot about DWare
He was double and triple teamed all year, and he fought and tore through people to get sacks. It’s the NFL; no one is dumb enough to “forget” about DWare. As others have also said, he played with a horrible secondary.
"How 'Bout them Cowboys!"---Jimmy Johnson
"...and the Cowboys...STUN the Bills!"--ESPN MNF
dal can’t expect 30 yr old Ware = 27 yr old Ware and definitely can’t expect
31 yr old Ware = 27 yr old Ware
the Jets would be the perfect counter-party. they believe they’re a SB contender, need a pass rushers, and think they’re just one piece away. but they wildly over-rate themselves.
even with Ware the Jets would still struggle.
For God and country - Geronimo
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Jan 6, 2012 8:23 AM CST reply actions
My problem is that other teams know Ware's age too.
I have two questions for you:
1) what, realistically, would you consider a beneficial trade for the Cowboys?
2) is there any team that will offer it?
I have the feeling that Ware is one of those guys who is slightly more valuable to us than to anyone else—and that this will still be true when he ages/ regresses. But it’s just a feeling.
two R1, one R2
Carson Palmer went for one R1, one conditional R2 → R1, so probably two R1
For God and country - Geronimo
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Jan 6, 2012 10:36 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
With you on this one FITAT
But I need a little more in the later rounds dude.
Newman is Bad!
by Feeling Blue & Silver on Jan 6, 2012 11:04 AM CST up reply actions
It would all depend what they offered.
If they offer me an insane package than I would have to pull the trigger. If they offer just a first-rounder, I would probably pass.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
let`s say we get pick 5 for him!!!!!
5 Dre Kirkpatrick CB Alabama
14 Nick Perry OLB Southern California
45 Stephon Gilmore CB South Carolina
82 Robert Lester FS Alabama
150 Philip Blake C Baylor
186 Derek Wolfe DE Cincinnati
222 *Donte Paige-Moss OLB North Carolina
A draft like this and we upgraded our team big time. Ship Spencer out as well but keep Butler. Perry can bring the heat and that Paige -Moss fellow is a bargain in the 7th. 3 ball hawks for the secondary to replace TNew, Ball and Elam. Blake at C is an upgrade as well.
forgot the lone Wolfe
yeah I know he`s probably gone in rd 3 but he`s ranked here by CBS so I`m taking the gift because every yr there are gifts to be had in the draft.
If the offer is right sure.
Its clear our defense is a long way from being a great defense. And Ware is only going to get older and older. Age is not the friend of a defensive player.
"Obviously, I felt like if I ran into my lineman there it was going to help the play" ~Tony Romo
two things:
1. You just don’t see Walker (or Ricky Williams) type trades any more. Teams appropriately value draft picks and see it as a vital way to churn their roster (as they should). When Allen was traded, the Chiefs recieved a first, two 3rds and swapped sixth round picks. What would we realistically get? A first and a third this year and a first rounder next year? And like others have said, it would probably be in the latter half of the round.
2. The brain trust sees this as a team that came a game short from the playoffs. They see a franchise quarterback and 7-10 key guys on the team. I think we’ll see them make a run at one top FA and then fill out the rest of the roster like they did last year, with cagey veteran signings on short term deals.
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
Disagree with point 1.
MOST teams value draft picks, but they also measure it against what is KNOWN. See Carson Palmer, Chad Ochocinco(was offered 2 first rounders and a 2nd for him),
Newman is Bad!
by Feeling Blue & Silver on Jan 6, 2012 11:06 AM CST up reply actions
Trade
As Clark mentioned above, trades like this rarely happen anymore. I would only do it for proven players and picks. First round draft picks do not always pan out as evidenced by players such as Bobby Carpenter. If we could trade for an All-Pro type Center or Guard, another great player and picks, I could be convinced to do it. For example, if the Jets offered Nick Mangold and Revis, then I would do the trade; however, I see that unlikely. If it was something like Mangold, Cromartie and 2 first round picks, it would be something I would consider.
You never trade the 2nd best player on your team
unless you’re like a 1 or 2 win team and have no hope the next few years. Cowboys aren’t in that position.
In Romo we Trust
hmmmm....
Ask easier questions please.
Newman is Bad!
by Feeling Blue & Silver on Jan 6, 2012 11:06 AM CST up reply actions
LOL
yeah that’s an interesting question. If you are Chia, probably not. If you think Spencer can be better with a better secondary, maybe you pull the trigger.
Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack.
~Sun Tzu
NO!
add two first and I would… Revis is a DB though he is a shut down corner he’s getting up in age too…. and speed is essentially more demanding of a DB as compared to an OLB.
RexP
No way
I thought the general consensus here is that we need to bolster the pass rush in order to make the secondary better. Why would we follow the Jets mold that’s not working?
"No one ever accomplishes anything alone in football. We all like to think that we can, but that's just not true. It's always been a team game, always will be." - Tom Dempsey
"Leadership is getting someone to do what they don’t want to do, to achieve what they want to achieve." - Tom Landry
by jakezze01 on Jan 6, 2012 8:28 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Nothing guaranteed with draft picks
There are plenty of 1st round busts and 5th round steals to be had. You don’t trade a proven commodity for potential.
Also, one thing most people don’t think abut with trades is the cap hit. Trading Ware will create about a 13 million dollar cap hit (the pro-rated signing bonus for the next 4 years of his contract).
This cap hit makes any discussions of this trade fanciful musings that have no basis in reality.
The fact of the matter is that with D Ware and Romo, Cowboys have the 2 most important positions sown up. You don’t go rebuilding mode in that situation. When Romo leaves the Cowboys, you then go into rebuilding mode until you find your next great QB. Until then, your goal, every year, should be the Lombardi trophy.
Well put:
You don’t trade a proven commodity for potential
"No one ever accomplishes anything alone in football. We all like to think that we can, but that's just not true. It's always been a team game, always will be." - Tom Dempsey
"Leadership is getting someone to do what they don’t want to do, to achieve what they want to achieve." - Tom Landry
Egads
“Sad, but true” winning with 42% of the vote.
I respect your idea. There is merit to it.
And thankfully we will do no such thing.
We are far closer to being valid than we were close to in 1989.
"I'm your huckleberry."
Agreed...
I chose stop overreacting.
Newman is Bad!
by Feeling Blue & Silver on Jan 6, 2012 11:07 AM CST up reply actions
Option 2 and 3 are basically the same answer
Option 2 is the Ross Perot of the poll…
by TheCowboyWay on Jan 6, 2012 11:08 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I would never trade him! Although I understand and do not dissagree with your logic.
The good thing is the current group of college players fit the 3-4 scheme well,and it is a pretty good cb class so hopefully we will get him some help.
Hey first time poster
I been reading this site for a few months and I have been a die hard Cowboys fan for 40+ years. I kind of liked the article but I have to disagree when you said “is a bit of a detriment to the team”.
by AzDbackfanInDc on Jan 6, 2012 10:57 AM CST reply actions 4 recs
Newbie rec
"This is a simple game, you throw the ball, you hit the ball, you catch the the ball, you got it?!"
Welcome man... there's a rec for you.
Newman is Bad!
by Feeling Blue & Silver on Jan 6, 2012 11:08 AM CST up reply actions
REC
Welcome. This is a good place. :)
"I'm your huckleberry."
by bloodyhanded on Jan 6, 2012 11:27 AM CST up reply actions
welcome welcome
what is the disagreement? I said:
DWare is too good and nice and it actually is a bit of a detriment to the team
Are you saying his being a nice guy never hurts the team? Have you never seen a QB rush his throw based on who was coming at him?
I do agree with this part
“I want to put the fear in the QBs we face that on any snap it could be the last of their career but that does not happen”. Very Very good point!
by AzDbackfanInDc on Jan 6, 2012 10:59 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
Oh and I don't need Ware, to be Meaner or Nastier...
I want him to be whatever he has been that has made him very successful and has caused teams to put two and three guys to block him on a consistent basis.
Newman is Bad!
by Feeling Blue & Silver on Jan 6, 2012 11:09 AM CST reply actions
Yes true
but he won’t be at this level forever. Also I hate this argument I’m about to make but what has his getting blocked by 2 and 3 defenders done for us?
I would have stuck with NOT making the argument,
It makes you come accross as less intelligent.
Newman is Bad!
by Feeling Blue & Silver on Jan 7, 2012 11:29 PM CST up reply actions
Silly Fanpost
The only prefect science is hindsight............Lock n Load
by DIRE WOLF on Jan 6, 2012 11:18 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
No, not really.
There’s merit to his idea. And it worth at least discussing.
We don’t do it, but we can talk about it.
"I'm your huckleberry."
by bloodyhanded on Jan 6, 2012 11:28 AM CST up reply actions
I think this idea is simply born of frustration that a LOT of us are feeling....
almost out of a sense of desperation. The team we love and in many cases grew up watching (as in my case) just isn’t very good and we all want to be the ’armchair GM" and FIX it.
JJ’s trade of Walker symbolizes for those what COULD happen but in this case, simply isn’t reality. Jimmy is no longer here and that leaves us with Jerry managing things and a lot of us are frustrated with him.
We’re all tired of being trapped in mediocrity season after season. Lackluster record, can’t get over the “december curse”, etc…..
We have to be patient my fellow Cowboys fans. Granted, I don’t do that well either but as my now late Uncle was fond of saying, “Patience is a virtue”.
"Drew is a winner"....Roger Staubach
Inducted in Cowboys Ring of Honor 2011 FINALLY!!!!!!!
True
I am frustrated, to the point I’ve had to take a step back and try and figure out what could be done differently. I’m sick of doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
In a dream scenario we can somehow get our hands on Mario Williams and then this whole post could be thrown away (because teams wouldn’t be able to stop Ware, Ratliff and Williams). For right now I’d put those odds at pretty low. I’d also think given how well the last draft went, with our clear change in philosophy that our odds of doing more with more draft picks could be the change needed.
This was the hardest thing I’ve ever written for this site (granted small sample size) because I can not convey how much I like Ware. He is in my top 5 favorite players of all time and I would be bummed out of my mind to not have him as a Cowboy anymore. That being said I would rather the Cowboys succeed more than Ware. If one person could potentially net you 5-6 starters it would be worth trading them. The amount that losing Ware but improving at CB, SS, FS and maybe DL would be more than offset putting a JAG in his place.
we wont see Mario here.....
he doesnt want to play old in the 3-4 def and even in houston most fans agree he cant cover TE or fast RB worth a damn lol
redskins- bought by Snyder, OWNED by THE Cowboys !
Ryan- If only i could get that kind of aggression from my. Hey! You gonna eat that ?
Texans .....stand tall and REP !
Interceptions are more valuable than sacks?
What came first the chicken or the egg? Because sacks and pressure cause confusion for the QB, which causes interception.
Pass Rush > Secondary
In terms of value.
Is that why we are
usually among the leaders in INTs?
No but we have been in sacks. Here’s a little analogy just because you are tall doesn’t mean you are a good rebounder in basketball. Rebounding is a lot about instincts and being tall helps for sure. That is the same thing with INTs, having a good pass rush helps but if your idiot DBs don’t have the insticts it won’t make any difference!
As far as winning games INTs>Sacks
We lead sacks because of Ware.
One player. We lose Ware we have no pressure and no DB’. Makes no sense. We need DB’s, but losing pass rush to gain DB’s makes no sense.
I know I love Ware
but for all the pressure he gets on QBs it isn’t helping us in the TO (minus that N’awlins game after it seemed like he broke his neck) or INT department and that is what helps you win more than pressures or sacks.
At this point
I wouldn’t trade Lee for almost anything. gun to my head top 3 players the Cowboys shouldn’t even think of trading at all would go:
- Lee
- Smith
- Dez
The man, the myth, the legend Jimmy realized the team was not close enough to win a SB so they decided to trade Herschel Walker for (conditionally) 3 first round draft picks, 2 second round picks and a few other things.
They were 0-5 on their way to 1-15
I am not sure I would describe that as “not close enough…”
by firejasongarrett on Jan 6, 2012 7:22 PM CST reply actions
How many years did it take?
Wasn’t a lot of the core on that team? QB, WR, some of the Oline, FB, etc. It took 3 years for Dallas to destroy a great Bills team by 17.
We got some luck on some of our wins (@ SF, vs Redskins, @ Redskins, vs Miami) we could have been a 2-14 team if we had the luck we had last year.
Why couldn’t this potentially do the same thing for us now?
I seriously doubt you will ever see a trade for picks like the Walker-to-the-Vikings
-and-half-a-team again. Besides, I don’t think the Cowboys are that far off from a SB capable team. We’ll see after FA and the draft..
I started out with nothing and still have most of it left
You have to look at the teams that think they are close to winning it all.
Also who runs a 3-4 is major factor. Only new England is close and have enough picks to offer for Ware. They have the Saints first rounder which ironically could end up playing them in the superbowl. For the sake of argument would pick 31 , 32 and a second and third rounder next year be worth it ? With three first rounders you can do a lot of manuvering. I think you could score two cb’s and two pass rushers and o line in one draft. To me that would make us a better team than we are now. Viola we are instantly younger.
What bothers me is Jerry would never do this. The core of this team is borderline old. When those core guys are done there is nothing to replace them with. Qb being most essential. Jerry will once again be scrambling.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
Let's ratchet this thing up a little tighter.....
Trade Romo to say the Browns and trade Ware to the Pats…..both have multiple picks in the first and second round. Theoretically we have 6 picks in the first wo rounds. We sign Matt Flynn and rebuild in one season. I won’t lie. I would do that all day every day and twice on any day that ends in y.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Jan 7, 2012 6:44 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Get Football Mensa , Chiacrack and Fan in Thick and Thin together.
by Jonathan Stern on Jan 7, 2012 11:00 AM CST up reply actions
A cunning strategy mensa ,
but it seems that the organisation ( Jerry) continues to think we are only a few pieces away from being a contender.
so as much as your’e idea intrigues me, i can’t see it happening.
it looks like Garrett will get his chance to rebuild the team his way.
hope it works out, i personally think it will.
Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.
Winston Churchill
We Fight On !!,That's The Cowboys Way !!.
Go Cowboys!!
by scotscowboyfan on Jan 7, 2012 11:22 AM CST up reply actions
I hope it does but I don't believe in the F.O. at all on this team.
They have flat out wasted some good careers. The gap is too large imo to make it up in time to win with the core.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Jan 7, 2012 11:35 AM CST up reply actions
Can see your'e point ,
it always seems to be next year with this team.
i think by the time Garrett rebuilds it might be too late for the Ware’s – Romo’s – Witten’s etc, but we will need players like them to teach good habits to the guy’s we draft.
interesting times ahead ..
Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.
Winston Churchill
We Fight On !!,That's The Cowboys Way !!.
Go Cowboys!!
by scotscowboyfan on Jan 7, 2012 11:54 AM CST up reply actions
ANY player should be available...at the right price
"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"
There are many valid points, but D Ware is going no Where!
Wish you were here and comfortably numb.
When I read the title of this blog
I laughed. I thought that the writer, whomever it was, was smoking crack. And not that cheap crack you get in Plano or Richardson, but that S Dallas GOOD crack.
But then I read the article and decided to post (as the article actually has merit).
HOWEVER, (comma)
The Cowboys don’t need 1st round draft picks. The # of 1st rounders they have is fine (maybe one additional one would help). But, 3 or 4 or even 5 1st round picks in the next 2 years will only put the team a little closer than they are now when you take into consideration it will take 3-5 years for each of those 1st rounders to develop into elite players (if they aren’t busts) AND you also lose the ONE elite player on the defense that you have.
Sadly, there are MANY elite players who play sports that never win a championship. Ware may be one of those. But that doesn’t mean you trade him.
What you do is – you find a way to build your defense around him. That is to say, you structure your defense to counteract the pass. It’s a risk and is costly, but has worked in the past. The Indy Colts have, for years, been in the top 10 in pass defense but HORRIBLE against the run. That was on purpose. They structured the defense to rush the passer w/ Freeney and Mathis and intercept passes w/ their secondary while playing w/ a 7 to 14 pt lead (that was obtained via Manning).
Ware is one of those kinds of talents. One which, say you obtain 2 expensive but worthwhile CBs, a decent S and a solid pass rusher on the other side of the ball, Ware has multiple 20+ sack seasons and Dallas makes multiple appearances deep into the playoffs. The real question is if the offense is good enough to get the lead in order to let the D be that kind of D.
I say YES, if you get some O line help. It’s not too late. That’s why this year, the emphasis needs to be either moving Free to OG and drafting an OT (like Reiff) or swapping Smith and Free and drafting an OG like DeCastro. Also, you need a pass rush from the left side of the field. Easiest way is to move Ratliff to LDE, draft a true NT (330+ lb) or get lucky w/ a 2nd round OLB. Third, you need a better secondary. This is obtained via free agency (Jenkins and Scandrick are young enough) w/ a CB and FS.
These things cost premium $ – but it can be done.
So No
Hell No, Hell F*&)in NO, do you trade Ware!
by Tyrone Jenkins on Jan 7, 2012 10:21 PM CST up reply actions
Thanks
I’ve gotten called a lot of things but not really a crackhead before, lol.
I would love nothing more than for this all to work out with Ware still on the team but have a suspicion that we will see Ware, Romo and Witten get too old before we are close enough. This was my idea of taking off the blue colored glasses and trying to figure out what would help the team and what a pure smart move might be. If I’m wrong and we are really just a few players away I’ll write another post and say something like “thank God the Cowboys aren’t run by Plink” or something
I mentioned that I THOUGHT the author was on crack
But read the article and realized it had merit.
Please understand, unlike others on here, I NEVER get personal. I have nothing against (or for) you or anyone else, I try my best to stick to points/issues.
Again, my words are my opinion and just like everyone else, can smell just as bad.
You’re alright Plinko – but we shouldn’t trade Ware.
by Tyrone Jenkins on Jan 8, 2012 8:27 PM CST up reply actions
I got that
I really appreciate that man. I’m fine with a little good natured attack every once in a while especially when it is deserved.
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