Who Were The Luckiest NFL Teams In 2011?
Almost half of the 256 games played in the 2011 regular season were decided by seven points or less, 125 games to be exact. A little over a quarter of all games (67) were decided by 4 points or less.
In many games, the outcome was determined by a single play. Cowboys fans know this all too well: missed extra points, the self-icing of a kicker, a single route run slightly off target - it felt like the Cowboys got the short end of the stick quite a lot in 2011.
Eight Cowboys games were decided by 4 points or less, the third highest total in the league. The Cowboys finished 4-4 in those close games. Only the Broncos and Cardinals had more of these close games (9) and finished with a 6-3 and 5-4 record respectively. So does this mean the Cowboys were luckier than other NFL teams? Or unluckier?
Good news for everybody who's ever pondered this conundrum: a little bit of simple math can help us find the answer.
But before we do the math, here's an overview of the teams with the best and worst W/L record in games decided by four points or less.
| Team | W/L | W/L % | Team | W/L | W/L % | |
| BAL, GB, NO | 2-0 | 1.000 | Vikings | 1-4 | 0.200 | |
| Giants | 5-1 | 0.833 | Seahawks | 1-4 | 0.200 | |
| Steelers | 4-1 | 0.800 | Dolphins | 1-5 | 0.167 | |
| Lions | 3-1 | 0.750 | Panthers | 0-2 | 0.000 | |
| Broncos | 6-3 | 0.667 | Eagles | 0-3 | 0.000 |
On to some hard numbers:
If you've been on this blog for a while, you're familiar with the Pythagorean Formula. If not, here is what it is: The formula was originally developed by the godfather of baseball stats, Bill James, who surmised that a team's true strength could be measured more accurately by looking at points scored and points allowed, rather than by looking at wins and losses.
The formula was later revised by Daryl Morey (then a statistician for STATS, Inc., since 2007 General Manager of the Houston Rockets) , who developed the following NFL version of the formula:
Points Scored2.37
_________________________________
Points Scored2.37 + Points Allowed2.37
When Morey adapted the formula to football, he ran a regression against the results of the previous ten years, and ended up with 2.37 as the most accurate exponent based on that specific 10-year period. Other people have tested the formula against other periods and have come up with different exponents, but the 2.37 has stuck around and is the most commonly used exponent today. Football Outsiders still use the 2.37, and if it’s good enough for them, it’s good enough for me.
The formula calculates the projected wins for a team based on points scored and points allowed. Applied at the end of the season, it can tell you which teams won or lost more games than they "should" have. Teams that won more games than the formula provides for are considered lucky, teams that lost more games than projected are unlucky.
Here's the full list of teams ranked by their level of luck, as measured by the variance between actual and projected wins in 2011:
| Team | Points scored |
Points allowed |
Net Points |
Actual Wins |
Projected Wins |
Variance |
| Green Bay | 560 | 359 | 201 | 15 | 11.9 | 3.1 |
| Kansas City | 212 | 338 | -126 | 7 | 4.0 | 3.0 |
| Denver | 309 | 390 | -81 | 8 | 5.8 | 2.2 |
| Oakland | 359 | 433 | -74 | 8 | 6.3 | 1.7 |
| New England | 513 | 342 | 171 | 13 | 11.6 | 1.4 |
| New York Giants | 394 | 400 | -6 | 9 | 7.9 | 1.1 |
| Arizona | 312 | 348 | -36 | 8 | 7.0 | 1.0 |
| New Orleans | 547 | 339 | 208 | 13 | 12.1 | 0.9 |
| Baltimore | 378 | 266 | 112 | 12 | 11.2 | 0.8 |
| Pittsburgh | 325 | 227 | 98 | 12 | 11.2 | 0.8 |
| Tennessee | 325 | 317 | 8 | 9 | 8.2 | 0.8 |
| San Francisco | 380 | 229 | 151 | 13 | 12.3 | 0.7 |
| Atlanta | 402 | 350 | 52 | 10 | 9.3 | 0.7 |
| Tampa Bay | 287 | 494 | -207 | 4 | 3.5 | 0.5 |
| Cincinnati | 344 | 323 | 21 | 9 | 8.6 | 0.4 |
| Detroit | 474 | 387 | 87 | 10 | 9.9 | 0.1 |
| Jacksonville | 243 | 329 | -86 | 5 | 5.2 | -0.2 |
| St. Louis | 193 | 407 | -214 | 2 | 2.3 | -0.3 |
| Chicago | 353 | 341 | 12 | 8 | 8.3 | -0.3 |
| New York Jets | 377 | 363 | 14 | 8 | 8.4 | -0.4 |
| Buffalo | 372 | 434 | -62 | 6 | 6.6 | -0.6 |
| Dallas | 369 | 347 | 22 | 8 | 8.6 | -0.6 |
| San Diego | 406 | 377 | 29 | 8 | 8.7 | -0.7 |
| Washington | 288 | 367 | -79 | 5 | 5.8 | -0.8 |
| Houston | 381 | 278 | 103 | 10 | 10.9 | -0.9 |
| Cleveland | 218 | 307 | -89 | 4 | 4.9 | -0.9 |
| Seattle | 321 | 315 | 6 | 7 | 8.2 | -1.2 |
| Indianapolis | 243 | 430 | -187 | 2 | 3.3 | -1.3 |
| Carolina | 406 | 429 | -23 | 6 | 7.5 | -1.5 |
| Philadelphia | 396 | 328 | 68 | 8 | 9.8 | -1.8 |
| Miami | 329 | 313 | 16 | 6 | 8.5 | -2.5 |
| Minnesota | 340 | 449 | -109 | 3 | 5.5 | -2.5 |
Let's look at the Cowboys in a little more detail. The Cowboys ranked 15th in the league in points scored with 369, and ranked 16th in points allowed with 347. That's pretty middle-of-the-road any way you look at it, and their record of 8-8 also reflects this. The formula projected the Cowboys for 8.6 wins, so it would be fair to say that the Cowboys weren't slightly unlucky compared to other teams.
As for the other teams, the formula suggests that the Packers, Chiefs and Broncos were the luckiest teams last year, all recording about two more wins than their points total would suggest. At the other end of the spectrum, the Vikings and Dolphins finished about two games lower than where the formula projected them. These two were easily the unluckiest teams in the league last year.
Interestingly, I wrote a post after week two last season, and after two weeks, the formula was already projecting the Cowboys for an 8-8 finish. In 2010, I did the exact same exercise after two weeks, and at the time, the projection for the Cowboys was 4.5 wins, not far off their eventual six-win total. And although the formula did jump around in subsequent weeks during both seasons, you can be sure that I'll run the same post after week two of the 2012 season.
For most teams, these numbers tend to change from year to year. But not for all. The Cowboys have had a negative variance for the last three years in a row. No team has had more successive years of 'bad luck', with the Texans and Panthers the only other teams to also have had three consecutive years with a negative variance.
On a personal level, I have long felt that the Giants are the luckiest teams in sports and 2011 was certainly no exception. The Giants finished with a positive variance for the seventh year in a row. The next closest teams are the Cardinals with four consecutive years and the Saints with three consecutive years. Only once in the last ten years (2004) did the Giants have a negative variance. The Giants are lucky on a metaphysical level that transcends rational numbers. And please spare me all that motivational-poster-nonsense about how "luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity" or some other overused cliché like that.
Both the Cowboys and the Giants are at the extreme ends of the statistical probability bell curve. The odds are that this will change in 2012. Some people may attribute this to Lady Luck coming or going, others may talk about regression to the mean, others yet couldn't care less about some fancy formula. But one thing looks pretty sure: things should only get better for the Cowboys.
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then you didn't read the post
Pessimists say the cup is half-empty, while optimists say it's half-full. Well, the real question is, is it a good beer? Realist Larry, 2011
by Realist Larry on Feb 20, 2012 7:05 PM CST up reply actions
I have to agree with you OCC
The Giants are by far the luckiest team in the NFL, especially last season.
Hey Washington... D.C. stands for Dallas Cowboys
Jerry the GM…if we could only find a way to get rid of that guy…
Twitter: @silva918
They were the only team in NFL history to win a Super Bowl while having a negative scoring differential.
By that measure they are the worst Super Bowl champion ever.
haha!
I’ll take it with a grain of salt.
You PLAY to WIN the GAME.
Dear Tebow, please let the Giants beat the Patriots.
by Simms-McConkey on Feb 20, 2012 3:31 PM CST up reply actions
ok
so long as champion fits in that sentence somewhere, i’m good with it.
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I bELIeve in ELI!!!! - Primetime -
The Big Boy Cometh....Team Jacobs
Marines say Oorah; BBVer's say SUAMBP! say it with me - Suuaahmbp!!!!
Giants were extremely lucky
especially in the SB, they got all the breaks and the biggest one was Gronk being hurt, I think if he’s 100%, Pats easily win that game.
In Romo we Trust
because Gronk was the only one hurt that game
by that logic, i’m gonna go head and say the Pats are lucky because Terrell Thomas was hurt. and also lucky that one of the best run stoppers in Goff was hurt too.
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I bELIeve in ELI!!!! - Primetime -
The Big Boy Cometh....Team Jacobs
Marines say Oorah; BBVer's say SUAMBP! say it with me - Suuaahmbp!!!!
And we lost two TE's to torn ACL's during the game.
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
but both of them on top of each other's shoulders
don’t add up to Gronk’s swaggability. c’mon TD, you should know that. ;)
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I bELIeve in ELI!!!! - Primetime -
The Big Boy Cometh....Team Jacobs
Marines say Oorah; BBVer's say SUAMBP! say it with me - Suuaahmbp!!!!
Oh yeah, no doubt.
I didn’t mean it as a comparison. But we were down to one TE in the game.
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
I believe you make most of your luck
but some teams like the Giants really had every break go their way. Miles losing the ball in the lights, Newman dropping a pick-six in the chest, the Giants recovering like 4 of their own fumbles in their last game against Dallas. The Giants recovered like 3 of their own fumbles against the Pats in the SB, the 49ers fumbled twice on punt returns and the Giants recovered.
Maybe they practiced fumble recovery more in practice but still…..that was unreal.
"How 'Bout them Cowboys!"---Jimmy Johnson
"...and the Cowboys...STUN the Bills!"--ESPN MNF
The MARA's have made a deal with the Devil
the only possible explanation for the run of luck they have had
by burmafrd1944 on Feb 20, 2012 7:58 AM CST up reply actions
That would explain alot of things
Hey Washington... D.C. stands for Dallas Cowboys
Jerry the GM…if we could only find a way to get rid of that guy…
Twitter: @silva918
I can hear it
Mara: “So that’s it? That’s all we have to do, let you son Brandon run his mouth all the time?”
Satan: “Well, there is something else…. You have to let a guy with a face like a moron represent your franchise.”
Mara: “And my soul?”
Satan: “Uh, no, we’re good. I have the entire Eagles fanbase for that.”
Don't believe everything you think.
by dunkman on Feb 20, 2012 2:38 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 3 recs
And all this time, it was supposed to be the Yankees.
Formerly Pineywoods - different name, same cockeyed view of the world.
Jason Garrett - Lord of Order
Rob Ryan - Lord of Chaos
Speaking of the Yankees...
An anecdote for fans on the right side of the NY battle (Giants/Yankees/Knicks/Rangers), my friend Rick lives in Staten and him and I are both Yankee fans he was saying “Giants repeat,” I obviously pointed out the absurdity, but left with the caveat: “They’re talented enough to compete, so who knows.” However, I also mentioned the 2009 Yankees, they received some luck in their playoff run:
Justin Morneau hit a double that would have evened the Twins series up at 1-1 but was called foul, while I’m sure the Yankees still would have won the series 3-1 but that was still a moment that helped them tremendously.
Game 2 of the ALCS, AJ pitched a gem but they scored on a walk off error by Macier Izturis and received a “Yankee Stadium Special” from A-Rod earlier. If they go down 1-1, I’m unsure if they end up winning in 7.
So even the best teams in sports need a little luck to win, even in a sport where there’s longer series and flukes don’t have as much of an effect.
To support OCC's contention of luck...
The fumble recovery is a completely random occurance. You can practice forcing fumbles, but recovering them is completely random.
Mostly random
For example, fumbled shotgun snaps (a la Costa or Kowalski) are much more likely to be recovered by the offense. It’s also likely that fumbles in the secondary are more likely to be recovered by the defense.
I hate these absolute either/ors that force us to be on one side or the other. Stats and analysis relies on probabilities, not dead certainties….
But
if you’re extremely good at forcing them, that increases the probability that you’ll recover them.
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I bELIeve in ELI!!!! - Primetime -
The Big Boy Cometh....Team Jacobs
Marines say Oorah; BBVer's say SUAMBP! say it with me - Suuaahmbp!!!!
Love it OCC great article.
- grabs popcorn *
- waits for romo isn’t clutch/ we will never win with him posters *
"Obviously, I felt like if I ran into my lineman there it was going to help the play" ~Tony Romo
by thebigham on Feb 20, 2012 7:52 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
sits next s Big ham
Grabs some of his popcorn…haha
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Feb 20, 2012 7:57 AM CST up reply actions
i got a 18 pack... got any room on the couch?
finish the Oline rebuild
by yehti on Feb 20, 2012 8:35 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
come come!
It starts out slow but itll be worth the wait haha.
"Obviously, I felt like if I ran into my lineman there it was going to help the play" ~Tony Romo
What's up, guys?
I’m just passing through the neighborhood, looking for a QB to bash…
What is the star now? A fallen piece of hardened plastic? The heaviest franchise in American sport? A false idol adored by many millions? The epitome of all that can be achieved with hard work? All that can be lost with too strong a sense of entitlement? A welcome coping mechanism, distracting from the real negativity on Earth? A bonding and separating agent?
by BlueNSilverBlood on Feb 20, 2012 9:19 AM CST up reply actions
Luck
I do think you make your own luck for the most part, but fact is the football is shaped funny and will bounce in odd ways …
To win consistently year in and out you have to be very good and solid. Thing is sometimes average + getting on a roll + a little luck = Super Bowl in any given year.
by DB23 on Feb 20, 2012 8:01 AM CST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
I disagree
No way Giants had anything to do with Gronk being far less than 100% in the SB
In Romo we Trust
injuries don't constitute luck
every team has key injuries, so it’s negated.
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I bELIeve in ELI!!!! - Primetime -
The Big Boy Cometh....Team Jacobs
Marines say Oorah; BBVer's say SUAMBP! say it with me - Suuaahmbp!!!!
+1 on people make there own luck & playing with an odd shaped ball will cause bad bounces
when you put 53 players together theres always going to a handfull that dont put the same effort as others & it only takes 1 person to screw it up for everyone.
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
Great article, but I disagree with the the last line.
I do not believe that things will get better for the Cowboys: at least not immediately. Dallas defeated one team that went to the playoffs last season, but other than the improbable overtime win at San Francisco, Dallas lost its other eight games against teams that finished 8-8 or better.
In other words, the Cowboys beat up on teams that they were supposed to defeat, but lost to every team that did not post a losing record. In 2012, the Cowboys will have 10 games against teams that finished 2011 with more than 8 wins:
Cincinnati: 9-7
Pittsburgh: 12-4
Baltimore: 12-4
New Orleans: 13-3
Atlanta: 10-6
Chicago: 8-8
Philadelphia: 8-8 (2 games)
New York: 9-7 (2 games)
At least one of these teams will stumble next season and not reach 8 wins. Regardless, Dallas will either have to improve drastically from last season, or steal some of the Giants’ luck to duplicate the 8-8 record the Cowboys posted in 2011.
As far as the Giants are concerned, fans that believe that luck did not play a MAJOR role in their second Super Bowl are probably from New York, or just started watching football this season. The cascade of events that needed to happen for the Giants to win the Super Bowl is mind boggling:
1. Austin needed to lose the ball in the lights or the Giants lose.
2. Green Bay could only lose to the Giants if Rodgers was not sharp.
3. San Francisco needed Alex Smith (yes, that Alex Smith) to play like Steve Young and beat the New Orleans Saints for New York to have a chance in the NFC Championship game. No way the Giants defeat the Saints in the Superdome.
4. The 49ers needed to drop two sure interceptions and have a punt take an awkward bounce and deflect off of an inexperienced return man to lose that game.
5. New England, a team that rarely (if ever) defeats itself with dumb plays, commits a 12-men on the field penalty on third down to extend a touchdown drive, has a player jump offsides to overturn a fumble, and Tom Terrific throws the most boneheaded intentional grounding in the history of the Super Bowl. Just as insurance, Wes Welker channels his inner Miles Austin and drops a sure game-cliching catch.
Welcome to today’s NFL, where average teams have a chance to win it all. Come to think of it, maybe the Cowboys really aren’t that far off (channeling my inner Jerry).
by ScarletO on Feb 20, 2012 8:51 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
I meant better as in “they’ll have a positive variance next year”. Having said that, I’m still optimistic for next year and believe the Cowboys will be better than 8-8.
by One.Cool.Customer on Feb 20, 2012 9:19 AM CST up reply actions
I expect a 2 game improvement
we went from 6-10 to 8-8 last year, that is a 2 game improvement
I expect us to be 10-6 this year, a 2 game improvement
at least that is what I believe anyway
I believe that this team is good enough to win 10 games and especially considering we have a 2 top 50 picks and free agency, I just see us improving on 8-8
Anthony Spencer is not the Egg McMuffin of 3-4 OLB's
by Archie Barberio on Feb 20, 2012 9:39 AM CST up reply actions
Dp the 2012 Cowboys look good through your blue and silver tented glasses.
Carolina: 6-10 WIN
Tampa Bay: 4-12 WIN
Seattle: 7-9 WIN
Cleveland: 4-12 WIN
Cincinnati: 9-7 LOSS
Pittsburgh: 12-4 LOSS
Baltimore: 12-4 LOSS
New Orleans: 13-3 LOSS
Atlanta: 10-6 LOSS
Chicago: 8-8 WIN
Philadelphia: 8-8 × 2 SPLIT
New York: 9-7 × 2 SPLIT
Washington: 5-11 × 2 SPLIT
Hate to be Debbie Downer but I’m seeing an 8-8 record again next season.
by StarloverinWNC on Feb 20, 2012 12:13 PM CST up reply actions
I am not a homer so I look through clear glasses
anyone who knows me, knows that
Anthony Spencer is not the Egg McMuffin of 3-4 OLB's
by Archie Barberio on Feb 20, 2012 2:38 PM CST up reply actions
12-4 if Jerry does the right things.
"If you are prepared, you will be confident, and will do the job." Tom Landry
"The difference between extraordinary and ordinary, is that little extra". Jimmy Johnson
Lets remember
our records against winning teams is a little tainted by two monumental collapses against the Jets and Lions. We were better than our record last year.
On the other hand, getting smacked repeatedly in December was sobering – if we play that bad again, you can kiss 8-8 goodbye.
Sorry, OCC, you're believing in a fallacy
You’re basically believing in gambler’s fallacy:
For example, if a fair coin is tossed repeatedly and tails comes up a larger number of times than is expected, a gambler may incorrectly believe that this means that heads is more likely in future tosses.3 Such an expectation could be mistakenly referred to as being due, and it probably arises from everyday experiences with nonrandom events (such as when a scheduled train is late, where it can be expected that it has a greater chance of arriving the later it gets). This is an informal fallacy. It is also known colloquially as the law of averages.
You SHOULD expect an exactly 0 variance next year, assuming that the Football Pythagorean Equation really measure what we think it measures (i.e., that it really predicts wins correctly)….
BTW, shouldn’t it be Packers, Chiefs and Broncos, instead of Patriots?
I don't think that's what he's suggesting
I think he’s suggesting that the Cowboys will probably get better luck and the Giants will likely get worse luck. Not that instead of being +1.1 they’d be -1.1, but definitely some mean reversion.
I dunno what he intends to say
but positive variance is NOT the same as mean reversion. I’m only going on the words that I read.
I don't think he said that.
Just that they’d be less lucky than they were this season, which a luck score of zero would be less luck than they had this year.
by Omar Little on Feb 22, 2012 12:00 AM CST up reply actions
Here's the thing.
The Patriots this past season also only beat one team ranked better than 8-8, and that was in the playoffs. They went to the Superbowl on it.
Beating teams you should beat is the first step. The Cowboys came within 1-2 plays of taking the next step, multiple times last season. So to suggest a better season next year is to suggest they get about 1-2 plays a game better.
Admittedly, if they get 1-2 plays a game worse next year, they blow a couple of those close ones, and they go back to 6-10, and Jason gets fired, and the whole organization is in chaos. But that’s the question, isn’t it—are they improving or not.
by boyman on Feb 20, 2012 9:32 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
this is so silly
let’s discount all the negative things that went against the Giants, and pick 5 plays that went for the Giants.
how about all the dropped INTs we had?
or the easy dropped passes from Cruz and Nicks, that they lost in the sun?
or the games Eli wasn’t sharp?
or the bone headed penalties that we’ve been guilty of that extended drives?
or the blown assignments that led to easy TD’s like the one Dez scored against us?
nah, let’s ignore all of that, and just chose to believe the heavens shone down on us every Sunday, all game long.
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I bELIeve in ELI!!!! - Primetime -
The Big Boy Cometh....Team Jacobs
Marines say Oorah; BBVer's say SUAMBP! say it with me - Suuaahmbp!!!!
Same with GB last season
A fairly improbable series of dominoes fell just right for them to even make the playoffs
'I have wasted Time and Time doth waste me'
Jerry Jones as Richard II - Act 5, Scene 5
And ARZ in 2008
They didn’t win the SB, but went 9-7 and came within a great final drive by PIT with a great TD catch by Holmes from bringing home the Lombardi.
It’s not unusual to see teams around 10-6 make it to, and sometimes win the SB. GB in 2010 like you said, Giants in 2007 were 10-6, and of course the 9-7 Super Lucky Super Bowl Champion Giants of 2012.
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
The Giants took advantage of other teams mistakes.
I don’t think they were lucky. It’s incumbent on Newman to make the int. He didn’t and Dallas lost. Dallas invents ways to lose. It has nothing to do with luck. If you take care of your own business and capitilize on the other teams mistakes you will most likely win. Dallas makes far too many mistakes. They are mediocre and their record says so.
I don’t buy Austin losing the ball in the lights. How come no other wr loses the ball in the lights ? Only a Dallas wr can lose the ball in the lights. Dallas doesn’t make clutch plays. The Giants do. I think Austin knew Tony was going to get grilled and he was trying to deflect the criticism.
1. Austin needed to lose the ball in the lights or the Giants lose.
2. Green Bay could only lose to the Giants if Rodgers was not sharp.
3. San Francisco needed Alex Smith (yes, that Alex Smith) to play like Steve Young and beat the New Orleans Saints for New York to have a chance in the NFC Championship game. No way the Giants defeat the Saints in the Superdome.
4. The 49ers needed to drop two sure interceptions and have a punt take an awkward bounce and deflect off of an inexperienced return man to lose that game.
5. New England, a team that rarely (if ever) defeats itself with dumb plays, commits a 12-men on the field penalty on third down to extend a touchdown drive, has a player jump offsides to overturn a fumble, and Tom Terrific throws the most boneheaded intentional grounding in the history of the Super Bowl. Just as insurance, Wes Welker channels his inner Miles Austin and drops a sure game-cliching catch.
All of the above was not luck for the Giants. Those were mistakes by the other team and the Gmen taking advantage. How come Dallas doesn’t take advantage ? They just don’t have the mental toughness to forge a head.
If the Giants weren’t good enough to win the Superbowl they wouldn’t have. Dallas isn’t good enough right now. They are missing the “it” factor.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Feb 20, 2012 9:03 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
Let me also add that I am not blaming Romo.
I am blaming Austin for not following through with his route. You could see him hesitate. It was Crayton esque.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Feb 20, 2012 9:05 AM CST up reply actions
I too blame Miles for that
I can’t blame Romo, who was absolutely brilliant that game and it gets overshadowed, its a shame because he showed up BIG in a BIG game
what also gets washed out was him driving us down the field with basically no time and timeouts to setup a game tying field goal, which should have sent us to OT if we somehow made the Giants use their last timeout (cough defense cough defense), the D was soooo soft that game
here is why I am giving Miles a pass
the guy has been a huge playmaker for us ever since the KC game and as a starter, when healthy
if not for Miles Austin, the 2009 team would have had serious trouble moving the football through the air
Miles has won a lot of games for us, more than he has lost, and he was out for what 8 weeks before that game? I give Miles a pass for that, I forgave him right after that play
it was his fault, but the guy works so hard and has made so many plays for us that I forgive him
Anthony Spencer is not the Egg McMuffin of 3-4 OLB's
by Archie Barberio on Feb 20, 2012 9:42 AM CST up reply actions
Couldn’t agree more. I’m a diehard Cowboy fan, but c’mon, you have to give the Giants credit, and particularly Eli and their front four. Their front four is the best in the NFL and now we have to seriously consider that Eli is a HOF’er and better than Romo.
So if the Giants just got lucky, then Eli didn’t really make a good throw to Manningham down the sideline, and vice versa, Manningham didn’t really make a spectacular catch and manage to keep his feet in bounds.
How can anyone with a rational football mind and a working knowledge of how the game is played, watch that Superbowl and tell me that some of those throws that Eli fit into impossible windows were just pure luck? Any other QB most likely would’ve been picked off on some of those throws.
DCFanatic said something similar
that you dont have to like the Giants, but give them their respect
I totally agree with what he said on the topic
Anthony Spencer is not the Egg McMuffin of 3-4 OLB's
by Archie Barberio on Feb 20, 2012 9:43 AM CST up reply actions
Wow. Eli made some good throws.
I can make a half court shot once and awhile. I should seriously consider the possibility that I’m good enough to be in the NBA. Any other player most likely would shoot an air ball.
Rational football mind? Do you seriously think there are throws only Eli can make? And he completes “magical” throws with more frequency than Romo?
Eli makes plays.
You do realize he has been in the league for 7 years and has been helping his team win alot of games, put up outstanding stats that continue to trend upward and has made two Pro Bowls, yes?
The guy is a winner, has done things in the biggest of games that no one else has, and is a great QB. Do you think it’s fair to compare his performances to someone making a half court shot once in awhile?
If you don’t like him, fine, but denying the obvious doesn’t make it so.
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
Eli is a winner becuase he plays on a team with a good defense
or at least a defense that has stepped up in the playoffs and in big games. To say he has done things in big games that no else has is complete nonsense, there are plenty of qbs who have done the things Eli has, the difference however has been on the other side of the ball regarding winning and losing.
In Romo we Trust
Only QB in the history of pro football to do what in the fourth quarter of the SB?
I’ll let you answer it
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
and what allowed him that opportunity??
His defense. Romo stepped up plenty of times in many big games only to have his defense blow a lead he got for them and allow the other team to get too big of a lead to overcome.
I’ve seen many qbs do what Eli has done in the 4th qtr….they all played on a teams with a defense that could close the door on a game
In Romo we Trust
funny stuff man
Giants were 25th in points allowed this year.
in 2007, they were 17th in points allowed.
You PLAY to WIN the GAME.
Dear Tebow, please let the Giants beat the Patriots.
by Simms-McConkey on Feb 20, 2012 5:19 PM CST up reply actions
nope, it was all our D
they scored the points as well. how come you don’t know that?
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I bELIeve in ELI!!!! - Primetime -
The Big Boy Cometh....Team Jacobs
Marines say Oorah; BBVer's say SUAMBP! say it with me - Suuaahmbp!!!!
"What allowed him that opportunity."
Exactly how I usually frame my point when discussing this. The defense could only put him in position to do what he has done, they can’t do it for him. The defense, exactly as you state, allowed him the opportunity to to succeed. Then Eli had to do it. And he has.
You still haven’t answered my question. Where does Eli stand alone in the history books for fourth quarter greatness when it comes to the SB? There are three answers. And they get better and better and better as you go along.
Here’s one from the regular season, totally separate from my question. 15 fourth quarter touchdown passes in one season. Most in NFL history. And he only passed the likes of Johnny Unitas and Peyton Manning to get that one.
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
And Romo has the best 4th quarter passer rating..
"Obviously, I felt like if I ran into my lineman there it was going to help the play" ~Tony Romo
as I said elsewhere on the thread, Romo can win a championship
if the rest of the puzzle around him falls into place better.
There are a few factors i that in my opinion but the Cowboys are not too far away and it could be next year for all we know.
Now everyone will say Eli is in Bradys class. F*ck me
by PatNation85 on Nov 6, 2011 4:31 PM PST
and I think Romo is a great QB
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
by tommy d. on Feb 21, 2012 12:35 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
And there are THREE answers to this
hence the use of the word “thingS”
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
Eli has a much better team around him than most QBs
He’s above average and has a great front four. I guess if Eli played DE, I’d think he’s a HOFer. Granted, QB is the most important position but plenty of bad QBs have rings while good ones do not.
"How 'Bout them Cowboys!"---Jimmy Johnson
"...and the Cowboys...STUN the Bills!"--ESPN MNF
The list of bad QB's or bad defenses winning a SB is short indeed.
And how about the list of QB’s who have won it since Brad Johnson (who made the pro bowl in 2002 btw) and TB won it in 2002. Nothing but great QB’s and one might argue a list of future HOFers or guys who are well into a resume that is shaping up to be HOF worthy.
Brady, Ben, Peyton, Eli, Brees.
Or, go all the way back to 1994. Young, Aikman, Favre, Elway, Warner are the other guys to do it. Then you add in Dilfer.
Since 1994 there have only been two less than great QB’s to play for a team that has won a SB. And just about all of the QB’s to have won it since then are HOFers or will be.
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
why just go back to 94??
Jim Plunkett has two rings and he’s not a HOFer….what about him??
In Romo we Trust
Ok
We can go all the way back as far as you want. I just felt the relevance might be lost for some people the further back I took it.
So… what’s the question, or point, about Plunkett? That we may be able to compare Eli to him and Eli is not HOF worthy? If that is it, and Eli retired today, he is a borderline HOFer IMO who doesn’t really have enough great years to put him in but would still get serious consideration because of his playoff performances, most notably his play in the SB’s. But he is still playing, as we know, and is still writing his resume that looks very much like it will end up getting him a Bust.
I guess my point was about teams having great defenses and great QB’s win it all. You need both most of the time. Some teams have won it all with less than stellar D, and some have won it with less than great QB’s. And I like QB’s so I listed some to show that Eli belongs in that group, IMO.
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
"you have to give the Giants credit, and particularly Eli and their front four"
Certainly, it was these factors that kept the team in the close games they played at season’s end.
But they won those games by being the beneficiaries of an unprecedented string of lucky bounces—most noticably against San Francisco. Two muffed punts deep in SF territory? Both recovered by the Giants, who simply could not move the ball against the terrific ‘Niner defense? That’s just plain lucky.
by rabblerousr on Feb 20, 2012 11:58 AM CST up reply actions
They couldn't move the ball
against our defense either. It was a defensive game in the rain and mud. And the Giants were the better team BECAUSE they didn’t make the big mistake. They fought and knew they would win the battle of attrition.
The story is out there how the coaches were telling the players to protect the ball first, and to not give up the big play, and that the Niners would make a mistake and that the Giants would capitalize on it.
Kudos to a great special teamer in Devin Thomas who was a good enough gunner to beat his man, who hustled enough and fought enough to recover both fumbles. Go ahead and tell him it was luck that the coaches knew what they were talking about. Go tell him his hard work and hustle was luck. I bet he disagrees with you.
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
and btw
the first fumble recovery wasn’t luck. it was idiocy, on the returners part. why would you be that close to a ball you’ve waived everyone else away from? that’s stupidity, not luck.
luck would have been him running 5 yards away from the bouncing ball, and it still finding him like a heat seeking missile. THAT’S luck. that didn’t happen.
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I bELIeve in ELI!!!! - Primetime -
The Big Boy Cometh....Team Jacobs
Marines say Oorah; BBVer's say SUAMBP! say it with me - Suuaahmbp!!!!
Agreed.
I don’t believe in luck in sports unless it is something along the lines of what you describe.
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
they absolutely were all luck
Every single one of those things aside from #5 was OUT OF THE GIANTS CONTROL. Therefore, it is luck.
Were they the most deserving team last year? As you say, YES, because other teams did not make the plays they should have. But that doesn’t mean the Giants weren’t lucky. The difference between a superbowl and no playoffs for the Giants was an easy pitch and catch miss from Romo to Austin.
Eli was fantastic for 90% of the season including the playoffs. He was the biggest reason the Giants were even in playoff position. I won’t take anything away from him. But they were sure as heck lucky to go that far, just as many SB champions before them (2005 Steelers, 2006 Colts, etc etc etc)
You don’t win superbowls nowadays without a healthy dose of luck.
that's why your a mensa
rec!
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I bELIeve in ELI!!!! - Primetime -
The Big Boy Cometh....Team Jacobs
Marines say Oorah; BBVer's say SUAMBP! say it with me - Suuaahmbp!!!!
people are saying the Giants are lucky
yes, I believe teams that win championships always have a little luck on their side, it’s the way the ball bounces
teams that win, have things go their way
now what bothers me is that a lot of people are saying the Giants are just lucky and that is why they won
that bothers me
you don’t have to like or love the Giants, but show them some respect
they have earned my respect, I am a fan of good football and I respect them
Anthony Spencer is not the Egg McMuffin of 3-4 OLB's
by Archie Barberio on Feb 20, 2012 9:37 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
+1
I guess it’s okay to notice that they have had some fortunate things occur throughout their playoff runs.. but to say their lucky as a way to discredit them? I’m not down with that.
This post is just a reminder of how close the Cowboys were to being recognized as one of the top teams in the league. They were just a few plays here and there from being a playoff team. Instead, they didn’t make the plays, finished 8-8, and all the downers get to keep using the word mediocre. I don’t buy into the meme that the Cowboys are so talented, but it sure is a fine line between pretender and contender.
by BigDumbFace on Feb 20, 2012 10:01 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Unless you're a dynasty that dominates
Every SB winner gets breaks, it’s part of winning a championship, however, some teams get a lot more breaks than others…the Giants were definitely one of those teams.
In Romo we Trust
exactly, Terry
the great teams don’t need the lucky bounces to win—they’re up 38-14 in the 4th quarter.
But we haven’t seen a team like that in some time, perhaps since the late 90s Broncos…
by rabblerousr on Feb 20, 2012 11:59 AM CST up reply actions
2011 Packers, 2008 Giants, 2007 Cowboys and Pats, 2005 Colts
were awfully close. They were either magnificently efficient offensively or near complete teams.
Ironically, not one of them won the super bowl. The bye week has been cooling off 1 seeds for the last decade.
Get a room with Eli
Yes, they were by far and away the luckiest team in football last year. They were outplayed by several teams but managed to walk away with wins. The 49ers game? Had it not been for Kyle Williams’ terribleness the 49ers play the Pats, and in the Super Bowl Wes Welker of all people dropped a pass and they got a lucky (but correct) call, I mean honestly? Who was thinking grounding there that wasn’t a Giants fan? It wasn’t anywhere near as fluky as their 2007 season, but it was among the 10 flukiest Super Bowl runs of all time. Yeah they won, and yes they have several good players…but lets stop acting like they have the plan to follow.
This is a team that lost to the Redskins. Twice.
by Omar Little on Feb 20, 2012 11:05 AM CST up reply actions
just wanted to add..
Welker dropped that pass, yes, but that was a very difficult pass to catch. Brady had little pressure there and Welker was open. Brady could have made a better throw.
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
I appreciate your respect for my team, Crack
And I can assure you, if and when the Cowboys win a championship I will extend the same respect.
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
no doubt
I appreciate the courtesy lol
Anthony Spencer is not the Egg McMuffin of 3-4 OLB's
by Archie Barberio on Feb 20, 2012 2:36 PM CST up reply actions
I'll give the Giants there due, they deserve it...
But please don’t try to feed me the garbage that the Giants have some kind of blueprint to be a dynasty. This is a team that was about as average as could be until that last night of the reg. season.
I think I disagree.
Stockpiling passrushers and throwing it well seems to work alright to me.
by BigDumbFace on Feb 20, 2012 10:20 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
That seems to be a prevailing plan...
It’s not something that works for just the Giants, and aside from JPP and Tuck they’ve tried to get rid of Kiwi and Osi at one time or another.
by Omar Little on Feb 20, 2012 11:06 AM CST up reply actions
never tried to get rid of either
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
There was talk about dumping Kiwi if he couldn't play LB once Osi had his coming out party and trading Osi after JPP's rookie year
Not true at all. Kiwanuka was a 1st round pick, they tried to convert him at a later point
so that Osi and him could be on the same time. Osi was also never going to be traded, his contract was great and he had no value after his surgery.
"We will not be denied." - Antrel Rolle
by BigBlueIntervention on Feb 20, 2012 9:31 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah they tried to convert him to get him on the field...
If they couldn’t find a place, obviously he was too good to be a back up. Osi got hurt and showed some weaknesses against the run and was also considered to be somewhat of an after thought (at the very least) this season. I know since the Giants are Champions they get some revisionist history, but not the offseason. Here were the rumors:
And here’s the piece from some site where I hear that they only let people who grew up near power lines comment ;)
http://www.bigblueview.com/2011/8/2/2340435/osi-umenyiora-trade-rumors-john-carlson-and-a-draft-pick
There were rumors about Osi and they did consider getting rid of him.
Kiwi’s trade rumors:
Yeah they considered getting rid of each player. Hell, every team considers bad moves in the offseason. The Yankees just signed Raul Ibanez, I’m sure he’s not viewed as a long term solution by any means. If he so happens to have a Marcus Thames type season of usefulness and the Yankees bring home 28, and Ibanez has a good postseason everyone’s going to be (mistakenly) lauding the Yankees for “brilliantly” signing the guy. Doesn’t make it anymore true.
"rumors"
You PLAY to WIN the GAME.
Dear Tebow, please let the Giants beat the Patriots.
by Simms-McConkey on Feb 21, 2012 9:04 AM CST up reply actions
Usually these rumors have legs.
I mean obviously it didn’t happen, so it’s not that big of a deal…and as I said before I’m pretty sure everyone considers bad moves in the offseason that either don’t come to fruition or accidentally work out.
by Omar Little on Feb 21, 2012 11:17 AM CST up reply actions
For example
Well lets say the Cowboys are really high on Dre Kirkpatrick and want to take him 14th, however lets say that he’s taken by the Cardinals at 13th and the Cowboys are stuck taking David DeCastro, and lets say Dre Kirkpatrick turns out to be DeAngelo Hall that can’t jump a rout…I mean yeah the Cowboys wanted to make a move that turned out bad, sounded like a good idea at the time, but it turned out that not making the move was the best thing for them. Not a really big dea.
by Omar Little on Feb 21, 2012 11:21 AM CST up reply actions
I think a team considers all possible options with every player on the roster
Ultimately, they make their decision based on what is best for the team. The Giants chose to keep Osi and Kiwanuka.
You PLAY to WIN the GAME.
Dear Tebow, please let the Giants beat the Patriots.
by Simms-McConkey on Feb 21, 2012 11:25 AM CST up reply actions
I'm not quite sure
How are you unsure that they didn’t just find a suitor?
by Omar Little on Feb 21, 2012 11:42 AM CST up reply actions
I have no idea what the circumstances were,
what I know is that whatever they were, the Giants decided to keep both players.
You PLAY to WIN the GAME.
Dear Tebow, please let the Giants beat the Patriots.
by Simms-McConkey on Feb 21, 2012 2:08 PM CST up reply actions
You're basically agreeing with me at this point, but agreeing with me on your own terms
And Wolverine is a 2nd tier superhero.
by Omar Little on Feb 22, 2012 12:02 AM CST up reply actions
Thems fightin words
And Wolverine is a 2nd tier superhero.
"Obviously, I felt like if I ran into my lineman there it was going to help the play" ~Tony Romo
perhaps
I’m not into comics, but that image is from a children’s tube float where for some mind-boggling reason the makers decided to put the air nozzle directly on his crotch.
My point was, since neither of us know for certain what the Giants WANTED to do, we can really only base our statements on what they DID do.
You PLAY to WIN the GAME.
Dear Tebow, please let the Giants beat the Patriots.
by Simms-McConkey on Feb 22, 2012 8:18 AM CST up reply actions
Pretty much the best description of the team.
Kenny Phillips and JPP were great finds in the first round, and they have other good players but they still have very real weaknesses and if Terrence Newman was even average and Romo has a healthy hand they’d be done.
by Omar Little on Feb 20, 2012 11:08 AM CST up reply actions
Luck and randomness
There is no question that the football bounces funny. Yet there are Questions of the day
What factors are random by nature or "lucky’
Randomness should mean that they are equally likely to occur – for good or ill. They will tend to even out in the long run, but there may be short periods of unevenness. Flip a honest coin and it will be heads half of the time. Yet there are many times of heads several times in a row.
What teams have had “luck” interventions and how often in crucial times or games?
Conversely what factors are characteristics of good teams and should NOT be considered?
yes, randomness indicates that they are equally likely to occur
that;s why teams tend to be about .500 in games decided by four or fewer points.
The point is that when a team is significantly better than .500 in such games, they are getting an unequal share of the random bounces. Since those bounces are, in fact, random, they are lucky.
5-1 in close games indicates that the Giants got more than their share of lucky bounces. And ScarletO and others point out what those bounces were.
by rabblerousr on Feb 20, 2012 12:02 PM CST up reply actions
Look at the list of teams
that had the best records in these games. They are all playoff teams with talented rosters. Even Denver. They have an outstanding defense and the WR’s they have there are good and young. The best teams (players and coaches) capitalize on opportunity and stay focused during close games and are able to win more times than not.
Blanket statements, or posts about luck, won’t change this.
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
that's silly
to say the one thing that makes teams win a great number of their close games is “luck and bounces”
You PLAY to WIN the GAME.
Dear Tebow, please let the Giants beat the Patriots.
by Simms-McConkey on Feb 21, 2012 9:05 AM CST up reply actions
so I ask again what factors are noted to be random or not having a specific cause?
And the associated question – what factors are NOT random in nature.
Let us strip out the non-random causes to see what is the “luck” factor.
Flipping a honest coin should get a heads half of the time IN THE LONG RUN, but may have several in a row.
And please spare me all that motivational-poster-nonsense about how “luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity”
its funny that no one actually knows the origin of that quote.
For God and country - Geronimo
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 20, 2012 10:40 AM CST reply actions
They are good and lucky
which is REALLY hard to beat.
You can play well enough to beat a good team; but to beat one that has most of the bounces go their way?
For those that say luck has nothing to do with it; the above mentioned examples just this year; and then of course the dropped pick that Samuels had just before the Helmet play.
And as regards the Helmet play:
How do you explain the fact that the player who made that catch never caught another pass in his career?
Why is it luck that Tyree played well that day?
he caught the fourth quarter TD pass as well.
He was a ST’s demon for four years. Voted to the Pro Bowl twice (I think) as a ST’s gunner. He was the Giants fourth receiver and made the plays when he was given the opportunity.
Or do you think him making plays was some kind of divine intervention?
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
yes it was
because he was a ST specialist. Making a great catch when it most mattered by a guy who never caught another pass. I call that lucky
by burmafrd1944 on Feb 20, 2012 1:50 PM CST up reply actions
Then we just disagree.
And I feel I must disclose, I don’t attribute much at all in sports to luck. When a skilled player makes a play, or a good team wins a game, I rarely chalk it up t luck. I just don’t believe in it.
Now a ball bouncing a funny way, or a FG kick bouncing in through the goal post instead of out, something along those lines, I’ll call it luck, but in general you won’t ever see me call a team, or an entire playoff run or season (LMASSOFF), “lucky.”
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
we're talking about the best players in the world in this league
even to make it onto an NFL roster as a special teamer, means you had to be all world at some point in your life. don’t discount him because of what he did AFTER he made the greatest SB catch ever.
and btw, the reason he didn’t make another catch is because he battled injuries for the remaining 2+ years of his career.
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I bELIeve in ELI!!!! - Primetime -
The Big Boy Cometh....Team Jacobs
Marines say Oorah; BBVer's say SUAMBP! say it with me - Suuaahmbp!!!!
Is this what Cowboys fans are reduced to...blaming the team's failures on luck?
The bold font numerator in your formula is POINTS SCORED. One of the most obvious reasons the Cowboys have been so mediocre the past few years is because the offense has been consistently middle of the pack in scoring. Can we all agree that it is points that win games, not luck. And the Garrett lead version of the Cowboys offense has been middling in point production since he took over the offense. The Cowboys rank in points scored : 2008-18th, 2009-14th, 2010-7th, and 2011-15th for an average ranking of 14th in the NFL under Garrett’s leadership. That’s not bad luck my friend, that’s bona fide pattern. This problem is even more magnified in the 4th quarter in close games when the Cowboys just never seem to be able to close games. OCC, you prove this point in an article you wrote before last season http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2011/8/4/2344060/why-garrett-and-the-cowboys-must-win-the-fourth-quarter-in-2011.
I find it interesting that everyone seems to focus on the team’s defensive struggles, yet you point out that the offense finished 15th in scoring and defense 16th in points allowed. So can we all open our eyes to the fact that offense is equally responsible for the team’s mediocre performance. For a team that is loaded with offensive weapons, it speaks volumes that Garrett has consistently directed an underachieving offense with average point production. There is an underlying reason for the Cowboys performance that is much more basic and verifiable than an obscure excuse like "luck". It is the fact that Garrett’s offense has just been average in the area that matters most…SCORING!
by jerry_jones_killed_our_cowboys on Feb 20, 2012 11:04 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
The Cowboys had a better point differential than the Giants.
Teams get lucky, and sometimes that wins games. Especially in the salary cap era where all these teams are so close that even one call can mean the game. I agree that they need to improve, but for anyone that thinks that this team is worse than 8-8 they’re full of it.
As to Garrett, I’d wait until he has a good line before I’d nail him to the cross.
by Omar Little on Feb 20, 2012 11:13 AM CST up reply actions
The Giants were a unique situation.
The Giants are a very good team that was riddled with injuries and their regular season peformance reflected the injury situation. When they got healthy they played far more consistently. My point is that luck is an excuse losers use to explain outcomes. In the business world luck is a term used by losers and failures to explain poor results. The moment you allow yourself to fall victim to the idea that your performance or your outcome is based on luck or chance, you’re done! Let’s hope Garrett and the team realize they need to work harder, play smarter, and perform better to be more successful. If anyone in the locker room is saying, “if only we had been luckier…,” next season is over before it starts.
by jerry_jones_killed_our_cowboys on Feb 20, 2012 12:11 PM CST up reply actions
My main point Omar
is that the reason the Cowboys appear to be “unlucky” is that they are an average team with regard to point production (in spite having some of the best offensive skill talent in the NFL) and that’s why they end up in so many close games that they often lose in the final minutes. It’s not luck that causes them to lose late in close games, it’s the fact that they struggle to score late when games are on the line. Garrett would be the first person to acknowledge this fact and would scoff at the idea the team is simply “unlucky.”
by jerry_jones_killed_our_cowboys on Feb 20, 2012 12:31 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think you're reading the comments carefully enough
Very few people, if anyone, are arguing that luck alone won them the Super Bowl. Most of us go from the premise that talent, skill, coaching…etc make up your record, but that also a little luck is involved. The Giants just happened to have more of lady luck in their formula than most teams. Quit looking at everything in black and white terms. Surely you won’t deny that a little luck is involved in business; yes, you have skill, marketing, hard work…etc, but you also meet the right guys at the right time or something unrelated happens in the news to make your product relevant. No one completely controls their own destiny no matter how comforting it is to think we do.
"How 'Bout them Cowboys!"---Jimmy Johnson
"...and the Cowboys...STUN the Bills!"--ESPN MNF
Well said.
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
Wow wish lady luck was with our injuries and the ref calls this year we been undeafeated.
"They got a big-mouthed coach, a big mouth and a big-bellied coach that talks too much and now it's finally time to shut up- Brandon Jacobs
Sssshhhh, that part don't fit!
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
again you're only reading the parts you want to
and turning those into a straw man. Luck is part of the formula and most teams (especially 9-7 teams) need some to get to the SB. The Giants had plenty of it, and combined with their front four and Eli’s above-average play, was able to win the SB.
And every team thinks they get screwed by the refs.
"How 'Bout them Cowboys!"---Jimmy Johnson
"...and the Cowboys...STUN the Bills!"--ESPN MNF
Every team experienced injuries and bad calls.
Officiating is terrible across the board and I’m sure you can ask any fanbase about the officiating and there’s always going to be some homer that whines non-stop about the officials. Tuck missed some time, but he was pretty bad this year, and Eli, Cruz, Nicks, JPP, and Kenny Phillips were all healthy for most of the season. It’s the NFL, no one’s completely healthy.
by Omar Little on Feb 21, 2012 11:25 AM CST up reply actions
OK, that's a fair rationale. How would YOU fix it?
Are you saying that we need to prop up the offense significantly in lieu of a serious upgrade to our Defense?
Are we set at our skill positions and it’s just the Line that needs attending to?
We could technically select 2 starting lineman with our first 2 picks in the draft. But we’d still need a STARTING Corner and a quality back-up. Not to mention: 3rd TE, 2nd QB, STARTING SOLB, STARTING Safety, 3rd WR, 3rd ILB, Punter, along with upgrades at Kick Returner, DE/NT positions that’s a boat load of NEEDS we have and quite a few WANTS were looking at as well.
by StarloverinWNC on Feb 20, 2012 12:34 PM CST up reply actions
Those are great questions and I honestly don't have the answers.
I agree that we should be more focused on the defense than offense in free agency and the draft. You’re right about upgrading the offensive line. A big problem with offensive scoring was the inability to run in the red zone, which made the team’s play calling more predictable and it’s just harder to throw in the red zone because coverage tightens. In short, the Cowboys have to get better running in the red zone. So many people might not want to hear this but Bennett is a great run blocker, so I wouldn’t be surprised if he is back next season. I also think Garrett could do a better job getting the Tight Ends involved in the red zone. Witten had only 5 TDs last season.
by jerry_jones_killed_our_cowboys on Feb 20, 2012 1:03 PM CST up reply actions
so Ware is very lucky & Spencer isn't... good to know
we need to draft more lucky players
Every team has a great gameplan until they get Punched in the Mouth. Sean Lee is a welcomed addition at ILB & Kegabear's prediction about Spencer looks spot on so far.
Youre lucky when....
The opposing kicker misses a 20 yard field goal. The opposition drops a wide open easy would be TD in the endzone. 6 opposing players have their hands on the ball before you recover the fumble. The opposing WR false starts. The opposing offense has too many men in the huddle or defense puts 12 men on the field. The opposing defense has so many players there to intercept the ball they run into each other. Basically the other team making unforced errors, the officials screwing up a call in your favor, and the “tipped pass that deflects to the other team and not to yours.”
So, this...
"tipped pass that deflects to the other team and not to yours."
Was this your same excuse for 10 of Eli Manning’s interceptions in 2010? In 2010 did Eli Manning suck or was he “unlucky”? I didn’t see any Cowboys fans jumping to label Eli “unlucky” last season. Why is that?
It sure seems like “luck” is all anybody wants to talk about when the Giants win but it is a full failure when they don’t. So, I’ll enjoy the Giants being “lucky” whenever they get “lucky” and I’ll start calling it “unlucky” when they lose.
"Everybody talks about a dynasty. OUR dynasty starts today." -Michael Strahan (before Super Bowl 42)
luck contributed to their championship
to deny that is to deny reality. They had a good team that got healthy when it mattered; and they had solid coaching. But they also had luck.
by burmafrd1944 on Feb 20, 2012 1:52 PM CST up reply actions
true
"Everybody talks about a dynasty. OUR dynasty starts today." -Michael Strahan (before Super Bowl 42)
It is true, they did get healthy and had solid coaching. :-)
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
that's not luck
it’s the other team making mistakes.
So, if you make less mistakes, are you luckier or are you better?
If you capitalize on mistakes are you lucky or good?
You PLAY to WIN the GAME.
Dear Tebow, please let the Giants beat the Patriots.
by Simms-McConkey on Feb 21, 2012 9:07 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
yeah mistakes, and luck are two different things
how those lines get blurred so easily, i’ll never understand.
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I bELIeve in ELI!!!! - Primetime -
The Big Boy Cometh....Team Jacobs
Marines say Oorah; BBVer's say SUAMBP! say it with me - Suuaahmbp!!!!
wondering about pythagorean formula as applied to football
Bill James first developed it for baseball, to create an expected win percentage over a 162 game season.
But when you’re applying it to a 16 game season, it seems like it should be a much less accurate or predictive tool. There’s just too much roon for outlier blowouts of one kind or another to exert undue influence over the predicted results, based on a small sample size of games.
This may already have been discussed somewhere, but has anyone written about, or is there a link to, any mathematical defense of the use of the Pythagorean formula to football?
Now everyone will say Eli is in Bradys class. F*ck me
by PatNation85 on Nov 6, 2011 4:31 PM PST
by AJ_in_VA on Feb 20, 2012 1:20 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
Statistically, the football version is nowhere near as accurate as the baseball version, as you accurately state. Sample size issues in football have been discussed extensively in many places.
The one thing they all agree on: It would be nice if there were more than 16 games, but there aren’t.
by One.Cool.Customer on Feb 20, 2012 1:55 PM CST up reply actions
I don't know about wanting more
I like the intensity each game requires, and I worry the importance and passion will water down in value as each game goes down in value individually.
check out my bands nanoSMASH and Day vs Night
by AustonianAggie on Feb 20, 2012 2:23 PM CST up reply actions
well, with that in mind, have to seriously question this whole analysis
And the conclusions.
Looks more like a predetermined argument dressed up in misapplied and invalid mathematics.
Now everyone will say Eli is in Bradys class. F*ck me
by PatNation85 on Nov 6, 2011 4:31 PM PST
That of course is your prerogative.
And I don’t even have to look up your profile to know which team you are a fan of. Now isn’t that something?
by One.Cool.Customer on Feb 20, 2012 3:03 PM CST up reply actions
LOL, yeah
One of our guys linked this post on one of our posts today.
Beats talking about the usual boring stuff this time of year. :-)
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
i didn't even see that
But I like to drop in here because the discussion is usually pretty good. Even if i don’t participate, I lurk when I have time to.
Now everyone will say Eli is in Bradys class. F*ck me
by PatNation85 on Nov 6, 2011 4:31 PM PST
by AJ_in_VA on Feb 20, 2012 3:53 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
It is not just his prerogative...
I am a Cowboys fan and I can see the flaw in your argument. See AJ’s longer response down below. (What some people around here will do to perpetuate the myth of random variance, specifically when it pertains to turnovers and the Giants?)
"[Sean] Lee has more value now...than our entire 2010 draft"--- An Eagles' fan.
shrug, I'd have the same conclusion
About the methodology no matter what argument it was used for. That’s why I asked first about the use of the formula for football, to be sure I wasn’t missing anything.
I was a freak for sabermetrics back in the 80’s way before it was cool. The problem is, for a lot of reasons, football doesn’t lend itself to the measurement and analysis of large numbers of discrete, independent events the way baseball does. I’ve made that point many times at BBV.
If you want to deflect what I say by association, rather than on the merits of whether the formula has, uch use in football, that may play well to the bleachers here, but it’s not relevant the coreissue of whether or not this review is logicaly sound or founded.
That said, I do like how fans at this site try to use logic and I always like and respect the BTB community and fans.
Now everyone will say Eli is in Bradys class. F*ck me
by PatNation85 on Nov 6, 2011 4:31 PM PST
by AJ_in_VA on Feb 20, 2012 3:52 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Ok, let's turn this around
I mentioned in the article that Football Outsiders use this pythagorean theorem on occasion. Both the guys at codeandfootball.com, and Advanced NFL Stats also looked into it very recently, with favorable overall results.
Now it’s your turn. Show me some data or analysis to back up your claim that this post is not “logicaly sound or founded” or a “predetermined argument dressed up in misapplied and invalid mathematics.”
by One.Cool.Customer on Feb 20, 2012 4:41 PM CST up reply actions
sure, i'll take a look
As I said up front, I haven’t been up on the use of the formula for football, which is why I asked. I was just going off your answer.
No promises of when I can get to it, but I will look.
Parenthetically, I’ve commented in the past elsewhere on sme of the limits of the PFO approach, which is not to say it’s useless, but that it has limits. If i have time maybe I can find a link or two.
Cheers.
Now everyone will say Eli is in Bradys class. F*ck me
by PatNation85 on Nov 6, 2011 4:31 PM PST
those are some good links
and they get at my original question. Thanks for that.
Still, the formula as applied to football, while useful and good overall, is least useful in helping to explain sources of deviation. With p values greater than .05, maybe as high as p=.17, that’s represents an 83% confidence interval to prove statistical significance. While PFO’s adjustments in crease slightly the correlation coeficient, I wish the second link had given a p value. That would help answer the question, “how confident are we that we have explained almost all of the variation in the data?”
So, let’s assume the updated p value (p-actual) lies somewhere in this range: .17 > p-actual > .05. That still leaves us with a pretty decent amount of uncertainty in how predictive the formula may be. So, it is what it is. The formula is useful, but not as useful in football as it is in baseball.
Ok, so, Bill James famously argued that there was no such thing as clutch performance because there were no apparent baseball patterns that showed a consistent tendency among any given player to perform above his expected range given enough of a sample, and I always found that persuasive. James was railing against the sloppy truisms of all the baseall conventional wisdom, and rightly so.
But there was a caveat he later observed: teams that overachieve their expected win percentages by winning more one runs games tended to have better late inning closers than other teams did. Sometimes those closers were one season wonders who did not show dominance over a carer, but the consistently great closers did give their teams an edge versus the pythagorean formula. That is to say, actual talent/performance could muck with the results the formula would predict, and for understandable reasons.
So, in football, we have to ask the question: when we see actual results vary more from what the formula (already a weaker one) would predict, to what do we attribute the variance? The top nominees would be: random chance (aka, luck), insufficient data for the formula itself (16 game season) or some ability of the team to overperform it’s predicted results, as in the example of the consistently great bullpen closer providing more 1 run wins for a team.
In the end, there’s no way to prove which of these factors are more at play in a given football season. My problem with your argument is, it assumes only one possible explanation of variance: luck. But there are others.
Purely from my gut, I would say that each of the three top causes of variance are likely to be in play for each team, but not necessarily in the same measure for each team.
The only team I know well enough to hazard a gut reaction to would be the one I watch so closely: the Giants. All I can say about that team in its 2011 incarnation is that it did seem to show a consistent ability to execute in close games in a way that would suggest some ability to beat the formula’s expectations when the win-loss margin is thin and the game hangs in the balance, and I think probably the largest of the three factors for them would be Eli’s ability to run a game like a baseball closer in the 4th quarter. He put up some all time stats in that regard this year, with the all time record for 4th quarter touchdowns in the regular season, and all those 4th quarter comebacks.
Will he do it again next year? I doubt it, only because people don’t tend to have those kinds of all time years two years running. But he may still show a greater ability in that regard over a whole career, as he has a good five years left, and even if it may not be statistically significant, It may end up that way. But either way, stats won’t be able to prove or disprove it, because long tail events are ones that by definition will elude probability analysis when the sample size is too small to generate statistically significant results.
My guts about the Cowboys, whom I also watch a lot, is that they are close to an ability to over perform their formula expectations but need more continuity on the coaching (and time to establish it) as well as some more talent to beef up the pass rush and contain the big play in the secondary.
The offense is also close and I do believe Romo is a championship caliber quarterback. I don’t buy this idea that the Cowboys can’t win a championship with him. I actually think Jerry would be better served being less active as a talent evaluator and architect of the roster, but I know that just won’t happen. he’s not awful, he’s just not good enough, and has overemphasized the sexier skill positions over some other positions that are less “sexy” but more necessary for depth and consistency. But that’s just my opinion.
Thanks again for the links.
Now everyone will say Eli is in Bradys class. F*ck me
by PatNation85 on Nov 6, 2011 4:31 PM PST
Great Post...
It is not just luck (random variance); there is such a thing as craft.
So, in football, we have to ask the question: when we see actual results vary more from what the formula (already a weaker one) would predict, to what do we attribute the variance? The top nominees would be: random chance (aka, luck), insufficient data for the formula itself (16 game season) or some ability of the team to overperform it’s predicted results, as in the example of the consistently great bullpen closer providing more 1 run wins for a team.
In the end, there’s no way to prove which of these factors are more at play in a given football season. My problem with your argument is, it assumes only one possible explanation of variance: luck. But there are others.
"[Sean] Lee has more value now...than our entire 2010 draft"--- An Eagles' fan.
by LDVFootball on Feb 20, 2012 6:44 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
thanks
Again, to me, this is not about a partisan argument about one team or the other, but about separating what we can know from numbers and what we can’t. I’ve done a lot of statistical and performance based research work so maybe I’m extra aware of being cautious about reaching premature conclusions.
Now everyone will say Eli is in Bradys class. F*ck me
by PatNation85 on Nov 6, 2011 4:31 PM PST
Several problems here
But there was a caveat he later observed: teams that overachieve their expected win percentages by winning more one runs games tended to have better late inning closers than other teams did. Sometimes those closers were one season wonders who did not show dominance over a carer, but the consistently great closers did give their teams an edge versus the pythagorean formula. That is to say, actual talent/performance could muck with the results the formula would predict, and for understandable reasons.
Well the issue here is that a league average pitcher right from 94-09 had an ERA of 4.5 (in the AL that is), so basically he gives up a run every other inning. Offense has been down the past couple of years, for whatever reason, and 2009 seemed to be the last hurrah for big offensive numbers. Also it fits nicely for a time period. Starters usually tend to be better than relievers, teams usually use their best pitchers over six innings as opposed to only one.
Being a baseball fanatic, I’ve observed several teams struggle with the closer problem and other teams well…not. The Yankees are lucky to have Mariano Rivera, who oddly enough closed for the bulk of the time period I listed, he’s definitely been extremely valuable and his advanced stats like fWAR flesh that out. He pitches high leverage innings and gives the Yankees an advantage in games with a one run lead. Moreso than any other team in baseball. There isn’t a football equivalent to that, more on that last part later.
however lets say most closers are pitchers that are right around average if given enough innings. One year they’ll have a sub three ERA and the next they’ll be over 4.5. So the average pitcher blows a one run lead about once every other game, that’s an awful lot of leads to be blowing and extra innings games where it usually ends up being more luck than anything. So in such a tight game, the guy who pitches the last inning is pretty important (truthfully the guy who pitches the latest inning against the 2-3-4 hitters or 3/4/5 depending on the line up is the most important). This is something you could put on one specific pitcher.
However, this is a situation unique to baseball. A starter should only throw 100-115 pitches, with the tight strikezones were seeing that’s about six, maybe seven innings on a good day. You need guys to pitch the seventh, eight, and ninth innings, sometimes the fifth and fourth innings if the starter gets blown up. This, simply doesn’t exist in football. A player who’s only responsibility is to play in the 4th quarter or the waining moments of the game. You mentioned Eli “runs the game like a closer,” bullsh*t. What he’s purposefully mediocre to terrible in the first 45 minutes just to be awesome in the last 15? He cut a deal with Vegas or the NFL on ratings or something? The Giants do have a lot going for them, there is such a thing as mean reversion. 4th quarter victories against the Bills (at home), Cardinals, and Dolphins came all against teams that just aren’t that good. He didn’t run the game “like a closer,” a closer goes out and pitches the best he can for an inning…he’d do the same thing if he was only told to pitch the 3rd inning. That has to be one of the more ridiculous statements I’ve ever heard. It’s not quite as bad as when everyone called Marion Barber the “Mariano Rivera of the NFL” but it’s definitely up there. Eli’s job is to play well for four quarters and do the best he can to help the Giants win. A closer’s job is to pitch the 9th inning, two completely different things.
One 4th quarter comparison I would look into is the training staff. Frequently you hear about defenses that get “worn down” or running backs that die out from carrying the ball 25 times in the first three quarters, and are just gassed in the 4th quarter. Keeping your team healthy and ready for all four quarters is a valuable skill. Hell, the guys from UF that made Gatorade are gazillionaires from this. Maybe the Giants’ plethora of pass rushers help the defense stay fresh enough to where they can hold a team down in the 4th quarter and allow Eli Manning to have some comebacks and 4th quarter victories.
One of my biggest complaints, and hence biggest reasons for wanting DeCastro is because the Cowboys don’t have the running game that allows them to hold a 4th quarter lead. They had leads against the Jets, Pats, and Lions but couldn’t control the clock on the ground and ended up losing; now Mensa thinks this is just them “finding ways to lose” whereas I see it as a tremendous deficiency in the running game, particularly along the interior OL. It’s a passing league, no doubt, but the running game has uses: the endzone, keeping a defense honest, and in the 2nd half to hold a lead. The Cowboys didn’t have that, teams like the Saints, Ravens, Falcons, and Patriots did.
by Omar Little on Feb 20, 2012 7:27 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
well i actually agree with you in some sense
I was using a shorthand concept about Eli to keep an already long comment from getting longer. So let me see if I can make more explicit what factors in football may – just may – help a team over perform in close games.
I agree the analogue to the baseball closer in inexact. I also believe that football is a game where each p,ay result is influenced by the simultaneous and interdependent, mutualy influenced actions of many players in a way the more discrete and measurable outcomes of baseball are not.
In football, it’s not necessary that the offense perform better in the “clutch” than it does in other parts of the game in absolute terms, it’s only necessary to perform a wee bit better on the margins in those situations relative to the defense on the field at the same time. You can flip offense and defense around in that sentence and the point still holds
.
Now, clearly, the play of a quarterback on any given play is probably proprtionally more influential to the outcome than that of any player on the field. But a lot of other guys are part of that mix, not just as individuals, but as a coached, conditioned, prepared and coordinated unit. Baseball is just not like that. For the late inning closer, it’s mostly him, the batter, the catcher calling the pitch and the guy or guys closest to where a ball may be put in play.
So I agree that in football there are more moving parts that have to line up if a team is going to exceed its expected win potential. For the Giants, if they did perform in a way to make that happen, it had a lot to do with Eli but there would have been a lot more to it than that. I didn’t write all that because, as I say, the comment was already loooooooong :-) .
But my comments about the Cowboys and how close I think they could be should at least show how I recognize that in football there is more to it than the QB. I also suspect that a game changing DL and pass rush may ma,e it easier for a team to exceed expected win projections, since late in close games the passing attack can become even more important. In that hypothesis, the Dline is more like that baseball closer in preventing opponent scoring. Just another unprovable theory.
Now everyone will say Eli is in Bradys class. F*ck me
by PatNation85 on Nov 6, 2011 4:31 PM PST
Alright
I agree the analogue to the baseball closer in inexact. I also believe that football is a game where each p,ay result is influenced by the simultaneous and interdependent, mutualy influenced actions of many players in a way the more discrete and measurable outcomes of baseball are not.
Yes, because each play matters on what you did on the last one. If you get stuffed on 1st and 10 with the run you’re likely following up the play with a high percentage pass play to get some yards. There’s also injuries, guys tiring, and other big plays. If teams are always playing down by two scores they’re going to pass quite a bit. The goal in baseball in each plate appearance is always “don’t get out,” and if you get a pitch crush it. Or at the very least it should be, when pitchers hit that doesn’t count. It’s a little bit different, I don’t think Eli’s different at all from any other player, I just so happen to think that he’s a good player in a good situation. He doesn’t run the 4th quarter any differently than the other three quarters, it’s not like he just says:
“Oh sh*t, were down…well I guess I should actually try to hit my open receivers instead of throwing incompletions, interceptions, and getting sacked”
No, he always does his best. He’s had better 4th quarters than the other three, but I’d hardly say that’s by design.
we're very close to full agreement
I agree he doesn’t play less to win during the first three quarters. The thing I do see in the first three quarters is more willingness to go with a check down or to audible to a run based on presnap reads. He’s still in a mind set where he is using plays to set up the defense to expect one thing so he can maybe exploit that expectation later.
But, if the game is close late and the Giants are behind, the run is pretty much off the agenda and he knows he has to make something happen with the pass. He gets very focused in that 2 minute drill type of offense and he is very good at it. He certainly has the receivers but he also works hard with them to be sure they make the hot reads he expects in gilbride’s offense. He calls audibles at the line for protection or changes to the play based on film study. And he will take a few more chances because he knows he has to.
Just one example would be that cover-2 completion to Manningham in the SB. All game he had not been forcing that kind of throw or taking that chance. Though his first reads were to the bunch set side with Nicks and Cruz, they were covered. Earlier in the game, he throws that ball away. In that situation, he takes the chance to make a great throw to give his receiver a chance to make a great.
play.
Now everyone will say Eli is in Bradys class. F*ck me
by PatNation85 on Nov 6, 2011 4:31 PM PST
by AJ_in_VA on Feb 21, 2012 7:00 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Excellent summation. Rec'd
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
sorry about
the typos and stuff. My tablet can be quirky.
Now everyone will say Eli is in Bradys class. F*ck me
by PatNation85 on Nov 6, 2011 4:31 PM PST
Even then...
You’re assuming that anecdote is the plural of data. There’s games where Eli choked the game away in the past but those get ignored because he just won a SB. That Cover-2 completion to Manningham, was basically Manningham finally running a good route. He had him dead to rights two or three other times but Manningham just ran a crappy route and was out of bounds…so is Manningham the clutch player now not Manning?
Another extremely underrated aspect of the Giants season was that Victor Cruz made every big catch, and most of these were terrible passes. After about week 13 I just figured that they were pretty much going to fluke their way to another championship with the way that Cruz was playing…leaping catch after leaping catch, awesome one handed grabs, and insane YAC. I don’t think Eli is this “clutch” player that’s great “when the game’s on the line,” I think he’s a very good quarterback in a pass happy league. There’s other QBs I’d rather have: Brady, Big Bro (provided he’s healthy), Rodgers, and Brees…short of that he’s as good as anyone else out there.
by Omar Little on Feb 21, 2012 11:31 AM CST up reply actions
This is a good discussion. this is a good discussion. This is a good discussion
Thanks, OCC, AJ, for starting this talk.
I too am one who’s been following sabermetrics for a while (just not for over 20 years!), and I also have some reservations about being able to distill football into a series of measurable events. It’s probably going to take some world-changing analysis to get football even close to where baseball is. And there is STILL a lot to learn about baseball (defense – breaking down positioning and range, catcher effect on pitching, health maintenance, etc.)
One thing that I think is overlooked when talking about clutch performances, is that while clutch performance probably does not exist (elevating one’s game to perform better), choke performances probably DO exist (e.g., Ankiel, Knoblauch).
Now theoretically, since we know that choke performances do exist, isn’t it likely that choking is more like a sliding scale ability (with the vast majority able to get close to base performance hence the little differentiation in clutch performance)? While in baseball, this small “choking ability” is individual, and for the most part statistically unseen, could it be possible that adding up these smaller differences among a team sport such as football can lead to larger differences in play?
Stupid cut and paste.
Didn’t realize what it was doing….
But it IS a good discussion :).
alternately, given all we've said about the multivariate determinants of success in football
What may look casually like “clutch” may be less about any one individual as it is about key individuals plus depth plus coaching/preparation plus conditioning.
And what’s interesting about your comment is how it dovetails with what I said about not necessarily elevating team level of play over baseline but instead at least sustaining it while your opponent may miscue or degrade somewhat in those same close game situations.
Would that be “choking?” Maybe not. Maybe it’s at least as much about all those other factors in my first paragraph that I say may ad up to what may look like “clutch” performance. Plus, we all know that in football it only takes one defender to blow a play or an assignment to change the course of a game, or at least give the offense a major opportunity to exploit. So, if only one guy succumbs to pressure negatively, what may look like luck for the offense may just be hanging around long enough and staying consistent enough to exploit an opportunity. One “lucky” play may therefore be the aftereffect of hanging around long enough without a major screw up.
That to me is what the 49ers did a lot this year, and it’s why theGiants game plan for them in the playoffs emphasized not forcing things or making mistakes against them.
Now everyone will say Eli is in Bradys class. F*ck me
by PatNation85 on Nov 6, 2011 4:31 PM PST
by AJ_in_VA on Feb 20, 2012 10:07 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I would give nothing more than to drag the NFL into the next century.
Too often fans focus on one thing and put too much emphasis on a certain position in an attempt to look clever or sound like Mark Schlereth.
The basic game plan is pretty simple, it’s the particulars that escape most people. Although for whatever reason, those of us with cars on their lawns tend want to put too much emotion into this game and keep it stuck in the 70s.
Seriously, it takes a combination of both luck and skill to get to the dance anymore.
Parity (or is it parody?) has ensured that you will very rarely see one team completely dominate another in the playoffs. The talent levels are too evenly distributed for the most part.
So I’ll give the Giants a nod in respect for their talent, and I’ll give them a wink too for their fortunes.
I started out with nothing and still have most of it left
parity is used to describe equality.
An example of parody would be a song parody. :-)
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
Well, the current parity has turned into a parody
speaking from a dynasty football perspective. I’m sure more folks enjoy the “anyone can win in a given season” approach but I sometimes recall fondly when dynasties ruled the earth.
I started out with nothing and still have most of it left
parity=mediocrity
I guess that even in the good ole days, the Lions had a chance to beat the Steelers, but rarely 9-7 teams made it to the SB.
"How 'Bout them Cowboys!"---Jimmy Johnson
"...and the Cowboys...STUN the Bills!"--ESPN MNF
last years' Giants as an alternate case example
They won 10 games and did not make the playoffs. So was that team “unlucky?”
I don’t think so.
They had the opportunity to put away the week 15 game against the Eagles and they didn’t. The team failed to execute when it needed to, could not contain Vick with his running and the rookie punter failed to execute the punt out of bounds in the last seconds.
Jackson then took advantage of some loss of gap control by the punt coverage team to make a play and score the TD. That wasn’t just lucky for the Eagles, they executed when they had the opportunity and took advantage of the Giants’ defensive lapses and confusion to put themselves in that position. Accordingly, the Giants adjusted their mentality and coaching all year with the theme of “finish.”
The thing Giants fans react to is, last year, no one said we were “unlucky” because we won 10 games and stayed home for the playoffs. Fine, we agree with that. But the mantra of “luck” is always used to discredit when the team succeeds.
For me, as a football fan, I think of “luck” as mostly random and even among teams, just as ref calls tend to be that way (with the exception that some QB’s can never be flag football touched). Random chance is. . . pretty random. So, as much as the Giants sh*t their own bed last year, they executed and earned what they got this year. I don’t think any excess of luck had anything to do with it.
By the same token, the rash of key injuries and five CB’s on IR for the Giants are also just part of the game. A team needs to have enough depth to survive an onslaught of injuries, because the injuries, they will come. Some years they come more than others, and some years they hit a position harder than others, but they still come, and a team has to plan for that with depth and execute with what they have left.
Now everyone will say Eli is in Bradys class. F*ck me
by PatNation85 on Nov 6, 2011 4:31 PM PST
Perhaps a little unlucky...
Their pythag and the players that they had on the roster lead me to believe about a 10-6 record. Missing the playoffs? Ehhh…it happens, the Eagles, Packers, and Saints were better teams. They weren’t the best team in the division, so they didn’t win the division and nor were they better than the two WC teams. They should not have made the playoffs, you’re making the wrong assumptions about luck and what Scott’s saying about mediocrity getting you into the playoffs. A 9-7 team won the Super Bowl, last year a 7-9 team made the playoffs (and somehow won a playoff game) and a team that had to run the table the past few weeks won the Super Bowl. There’s still plenty of mediocrity.
by Omar Little on Feb 21, 2012 11:34 AM CST up reply actions
Ugh....again, no one is saying luck was the only reason
It was just one component, as it is with most SB champs these days. The Giants had a bit of luck at the right time, along with above-average QB play and a great front four
"How 'Bout them Cowboys!"---Jimmy Johnson
"...and the Cowboys...STUN the Bills!"--ESPN MNF
I don't know
While I think this sort of thing is valuable info, I’m still a little suspect when it comes to NFL point margins. Points aren’t a fungible thing like in basketball, and you get weird situations where the best thing to do is play for the win and risk the big loss — but not every coach has the guts to do that.
Add to that the fact that so many games are “close” and it’s plausible that a team would try to sacrifice overall quality for being extra good in close game situations.
In other words..it may be only part luck.
Also..
Didn’t the Colts outperform this metric by like 9 years running or some such before Manning went out?
..and haven’t the Patriots beaten this metric in nearly every year since Brady became starter?
Lots of intelligent Cowboys fans chiming in as usual...
So I don’t even have to say much…
However, the one really plain and obvious point I’d like to make is,
You have decided to call winning close games “luck.”
I call winning close games “clutch.”
So, you look at those numbers and say, “wow, that was an often-average team that was lucky”
And I look at those numbers and say, “wow, that was an often-average team that was really clutch.”
You PLAY to WIN the GAME.
Dear Tebow, please let the Giants beat the Patriots.
No.
You are either deliberately misrepresenting what I wrote or you wrote this comment before reading the entire post. I doubt that it is a reading comprehension issue, as you are usually a competent commenter.
Nowhere in this article did I say that winning close games equates to “luck”. The records in close games are just anecdotal to the Pythagorean. This is what I wrote:
“Teams that won more games than the formula provides for are considered lucky, teams that lost more games than projected are unlucky.”
Yor assertion that I "have decided to call winning close games “luck” is blatantly false.
by One.Cool.Customer on Feb 20, 2012 4:53 PM CST up reply actions
wow, "assertion + blatantly" = logically inscrutable
c’mon, man, don’t get upset that I don’t like one of your fanposts after all this time!
All I’m hearing is “blah blah blah, this is the scientific variable we have determined to call LUCK.”
there is no way numbers are going to support luck. It’s a silly premise. I won’t get into why, AJ already explained it.
You PLAY to WIN the GAME.
Dear Tebow, please let the Giants beat the Patriots.
by Simms-McConkey on Feb 20, 2012 5:00 PM CST up reply actions
ha ha ha
All I’m hearing are upset Giants fans.
You said: "You have decided to call winning close games "luck."
I did no such thing.
by One.Cool.Customer on Feb 20, 2012 5:06 PM CST up reply actions
All I’m hearing are upset Giants fans
then you’re hearing wrong O.C.C. because i can guarantee you, they don’t exist right now.
what you might be hearing is the rolling of eyes as we say, ‘hear we go again.’
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I bELIeve in ELI!!!! - Primetime -
The Big Boy Cometh....Team Jacobs
Marines say Oorah; BBVer's say SUAMBP! say it with me - Suuaahmbp!!!!
LOL, yeah pretty much this.
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
They lost to the Redskins twice and the Seahawks once
Stop pretending like you guys are the 85 Bears, the correct response to “you got lucky” is “who cares?” Flags fly forever.
by Omar Little on Feb 23, 2012 10:21 AM CST up reply actions
you've basically just said what i said
just in different words.
no one proclaimed all time greatness. but no one is upset at this post either. it’s more of a chuckle and an eye roll, because we’ve heard it all before. and like you said, we don’t care. we’re world champs. no amount of lucky posts can take that away.
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I bELIeve in ELI!!!! - Primetime -
The Big Boy Cometh....Team Jacobs
Marines say Oorah; BBVer's say SUAMBP! say it with me - Suuaahmbp!!!!
or to put it another way...
OCC: When you take this algorithm designed for a different sport and a much larger sample size, you can see which teams outperformed its already questionable prediction. I choose to call this luck"
SM: That’s fuzzy math, and when teams outperform any given statistical projection, it’s what I call “having what it takes.”"
You PLAY to WIN the GAME.
Dear Tebow, please let the Giants beat the Patriots.
by Simms-McConkey on Feb 20, 2012 5:11 PM CST up reply actions
This is hilarious
One strawman argument after another.
You said: "You have decided to call winning close games “luck.”
I did no such thing.
by One.Cool.Customer on Feb 20, 2012 5:22 PM CST up reply actions
yeah. yeah, you really totally did.
You introduced “luck” as an arbitrary element in the whole thing. Because, you know, you wrote the post. The post about “lucky teams.”
Here is where you did it:
Teams that won more games than the formula provides for are considered lucky.
Did Morey or James include “luck” in the equation? IF the method was apt — and it isn’t — it’s STILL not intended to create a “luck score.”
What it would do — and it doesn’t — is provide a projection. That is all. Then a team can either meet, fail to meet, or exceed that expectation.
Exceeding that expectation is what you, in your quote above, define as luck. Which is exactly what I’ve said.
TEH STRAW MAN IZZ U!
You PLAY to WIN the GAME.
Dear Tebow, please let the Giants beat the Patriots.
by Simms-McConkey on Feb 20, 2012 5:39 PM CST up reply actions
in case you need it backed up a step and taken apart:
Winning close games — and losing blowouts — is what gives a team with a middling record a negative point differential. Which is the data from which you are making inferences.
You PLAY to WIN the GAME.
Dear Tebow, please let the Giants beat the Patriots.
by Simms-McConkey on Feb 20, 2012 5:42 PM CST up reply actions
What is the difference between luck and clutch?
"Obviously, I felt like if I ran into my lineman there it was going to help the play" ~Tony Romo
hmm, that's a good question.
First of all, I don’t really believe in luck in 99% of sports. I think these things are usually rightly attributed to practice, preparation, skill.
But let me try: Luck has nothing to do with your actions — it is completely unrelated to your skill, your preparation, your reaction.
Clutch is hard to define, but my gut feeling is that it is to perform one’s best it the most crucial times — the final two minutes, for example.
An example: Eli drops back to pass, the ball is tipped at the line and flies 20 feet directly sideways to a Cowboys CB who happened to be corner blitzing, who catches it and takes it in for a pick 6. Not luck. Eli had to throw a better pass, the skill of the DL in tipping it, the cb was where he was supposed to be, makes a skillful play.
Not luck: San Fran’s kick returner fails to get out of the way of a punt, resulting in a turnover. That is a poor play by the other team, capitalized on by us.
Luck: Romo goes back to throw a pass, but the pass is intercepted by a Bald Eagle swooping into the stadium.
Clutch: A team and its individuals playing their best football when it mattered most, capitalizing on its opponents mistakes (poor play), winning when the chips are down.
You PLAY to WIN the GAME.
Dear Tebow, please let the Giants beat the Patriots.
by Simms-McConkey on Feb 20, 2012 6:40 PM CST up reply actions
But let me try: Luck has nothing to do with your actions — it is completely unrelated to your skill, your preparation, your reaction.
Kind of like Kyle Williams muffing 2 punts.
In the 17 seasons from 1966-1982, the Cowboys went at least to the conference championship game 14 times. In the 16 seasons from 1996-2011, the Cowboys have won 2 wild card games.
related to skill
lack of skill in the other team combined with on-point wherewithal and execution by our coverage team.
You PLAY to WIN the GAME.
Dear Tebow, please let the Giants beat the Patriots.
by Simms-McConkey on Feb 20, 2012 10:32 PM CST up reply actions
no let's try again
Kyle Williams not getting away from a punt rolling right towards him, after he has signalled for the rest of his team to do so: lack of execution.
Kyle Williams moving 5 yards away from the punt, only to have it ricochet violently towards him, like a heat seeking missile, even as he further tries to avoid it, and yet it still hitting him: luck.
Kyle Williams returning a punt, only to have it stripped from his arm that was swinging wildly in the air: lack of execution by him, perfect execution by Jacquain Williams
Kyle Williams returning a punt, only to be concussed by Jacquain Williams shoe that just flew off of his foot, and landed perfectly in Kyle’s facemask, causing his limp body to drop the ball: luck.
see the difference?
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I bELIeve in ELI!!!! - Primetime -
The Big Boy Cometh....Team Jacobs
Marines say Oorah; BBVer's say SUAMBP! say it with me - Suuaahmbp!!!!
by wilddre22 on Feb 21, 2012 10:39 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think that is the case.
"Obviously, I felt like if I ran into my lineman there it was going to help the play" ~Tony Romo
Top 5 Luckiest Teams last season...
1) NY Giants
2) NY Giants
3) NY Giants
4) NY Giants
5) NY Giants
"If you are prepared, you will be confident, and will do the job." Tom Landry
"The difference between extraordinary and ordinary, is that little extra". Jimmy Johnson
I'd have to put the Eagles on there at #5
They were “lucky” enough to beat the Cowboys to second place in the East. How does that even happen? Dallas is so damn unlucky.
"Everybody talks about a dynasty. OUR dynasty starts today." -Michael Strahan (before Super Bowl 42)
luckiest champions evarh!!!
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I bELIeve in ELI!!!! - Primetime -
The Big Boy Cometh....Team Jacobs
Marines say Oorah; BBVer's say SUAMBP! say it with me - Suuaahmbp!!!!
I think you're missing the point.
OCC isn’t saying that the Giants sucked, merely that they got pretty lucky en route to the Championship. Because of this, OCC is basically setting up a pre-emptive measure against all the “How can the Cowboys copy what the Giants did” posts. The Giants were a solid team, but definitely a very lucky team, thus there’s better teams with far more sustainable methods of roster construction that the Cowboys should copy.
by Omar Little on Feb 22, 2012 12:05 AM CST up reply actions
no i was more responding to mikellie here
who said none of what you and OCC suggested. Merely that we were just a lucky team. it’s just more of the same to us Giant fans, we’ve heard it all before.
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I bELIeve in ELI!!!! - Primetime -
The Big Boy Cometh....Team Jacobs
Marines say Oorah; BBVer's say SUAMBP! say it with me - Suuaahmbp!!!!
I don't think anyone said that the Giants were JUST a lucky team
That’s probably more along the lines of the Broncos. The Giants actually have a several pretty good players.
by Omar Little on Feb 22, 2012 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
Top 5 reasons sore losers attribute to the New York Giants being World champions
1. Luck
2. Luck
3. Luck
4. Sniff
5. Wahhhh
You PLAY to WIN the GAME.
Dear Tebow, please let the Giants beat the Patriots.
by Simms-McConkey on Feb 20, 2012 5:13 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
Perhaps its time
Maybe we go back to wearing our home jerseys at home. Since the white ones have not exactly brought us good luck. We are, after all, in a new stadium. Perhaps the “curse” died with the old one. I for one am tired of never having a true home game with us in our home jerseys. Just my own personal preference.
.... They haven't worn color at home since the 60's.
"Obviously, I felt like if I ran into my lineman there it was going to help the play" ~Tony Romo
Love the blue jersey
Have always been partial to the Royal Blue. The Boys always seem to play better when wearing the dark jersey. Tougher, maybe. Don’t know. Maybe it’s me but that’s what it seems like.
I hate the blue jerseys.
And the reason we wear white at home has nothing to do with a curse. I’m not sure who, but Tex or Bum wanted us to wear white at home so our fans could see a different color on the away teams every home game. (Back in the days before the big TV deals and Direct TV, when the easiest way to see other teams was to go to a home game)
In the 17 seasons from 1966-1982, the Cowboys went at least to the conference championship game 14 times. In the 16 seasons from 1996-2011, the Cowboys have won 2 wild card games.
No, there is not. I just don't like them.
And we’ve worn white for so long that I will always consider the Cowboys “color” to be white with blue letters.
It just seems strange to me for the team color to be blue. Like the Gnats.
In the 17 seasons from 1966-1982, the Cowboys went at least to the conference championship game 14 times. In the 16 seasons from 1996-2011, the Cowboys have won 2 wild card games.
Besides 50 years of tradition
Our Whites are our home jerseys.
"Obviously, I felt like if I ran into my lineman there it was going to help the play" ~Tony Romo
While the Giants were lucky
I consider the 2007 version far luckier. They needed us to make multiple bad, abnormal mistakes to win that playoff game. Their offense was likely the poorest of any team thats won the superbowl in the last 8 years or so. They won 4 tight games in a row, and that culminated with the truly ludicrous once in a lifetime helmet catch.
This year, all it took was great qbs missing one easy pass. It isn’t lucky when they know if they’re given the chance, Eli will lead them to a score and they will win the game. All they needed was that opening. They are still lucky they got it, but the 2011 Giants will get credit from me.
thank you foyes
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I bELIeve in ELI!!!! - Primetime -
The Big Boy Cometh....Team Jacobs
Marines say Oorah; BBVer's say SUAMBP! say it with me - Suuaahmbp!!!!
Incidentally,
When the Cowboys won it in 93, 94, and 96,
they did it because they were the best team in football those years.
You can take all you silly pseudo-statistical excuses and substitute this much simpler way of understanding the order of how good teams were:
It’s the draft order (barring trades)
You PLAY to WIN the GAME.
Dear Tebow, please let the Giants beat the Patriots.
BBV is over there ------>
Why are you obsessed with the Cowboys and what we think? Don’t you have a Superbowl to enjoy or something?
"Obviously, I felt like if I ran into my lineman there it was going to help the play" ~Tony Romo
don't be mean.
What upset you, me complimenting the Cowboys on multiple super bowl victories?
Or my simple, non-inflammatory opinion that the draft represents something?
You PLAY to WIN the GAME.
Dear Tebow, please let the Giants beat the Patriots.
by Simms-McConkey on Feb 20, 2012 7:12 PM CST up reply actions
Tempers, people
I’ve bled silver and blue since Staubach was pitching the pill to Billy Joe DuPree and Golden Richards. Never liked the Giants as a team. Not out of disrespect, but because they are a divisional rival. You always want to see those guys lose. However, after hearing all the crap this season about how weak the NFC East is, I cheered my white, pimpled butt off for the G-men to smack the Pats. It was fun to watch that pompous, arrogant, egomaniac Brady sulk like a little girl. It made me do a happy dance. Congrats to the Giants for representing the division. Well done.
Now I can go back to hating you….
Hey thanks man
for the hate obviously. I always tell people SBN is why I started hating the Eagles more than the Cowboys.
You PLAY to WIN the GAME.
Dear Tebow, please let the Giants beat the Patriots.
by Simms-McConkey on Feb 20, 2012 10:31 PM CST up reply actions
Same here.
But the continued delusions by some here about Eli’s greatness is hard to comprehend.
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
So what this tells me is that...the Cowboys are America's Team
but its quite obvious the Giants are God’s Team.
…I’m cool with that.
"We will not be denied." - Antrel Rolle
by BigBlueIntervention on Feb 20, 2012 9:36 PM CST reply actions
Even when the Cowboys are nowhere near the SB
we seem to get all this attention from other teams.
"How 'Bout them Cowboys!"---Jimmy Johnson
"...and the Cowboys...STUN the Bills!"--ESPN MNF
You'll get attention from NFC East opponents, of course.
"We will not be denied." - Antrel Rolle
by BigBlueIntervention on Feb 21, 2012 3:05 PM CST up reply actions
We get trolls all the time
fans of other teams just have this urge to come over to a Cowboys blog and brag whenever something meaningful happens to their team. It’s like their bragging to their older brother or something.
Also, I would argue that while the Giants luck streak can be seen as an indication that the G-men are God’s team, a stronger case can be made for the Cowboys as America’s team; the statistics are more reliable there
"How 'Bout them Cowboys!"---Jimmy Johnson
"...and the Cowboys...STUN the Bills!"--ESPN MNF
In an earlier thread I mentioned that you guys should proudly wear the "America's Team" moniker.
You are worth the most, you have the most fans (probably, though Pitt and NYG are close—>we happen to be plagued by having a cancerous wart of a Jets team stealing fans)…..and it pisses the rest of the fans off, which should be the point lol.
As far as my original comment, it was made in jest, of course. Luck plays a heavy role in ANY champion, I’ll agree to that. That’s why its better to be lucky than good.
"We will not be denied." - Antrel Rolle
by BigBlueIntervention on Feb 21, 2012 5:48 PM CST up reply actions
The Giants had decent QB play and an excellent front four
which I did point out in other comments on luck. Luck is a component but you have to have a good enough team for that luck to take you anywhere.
"How 'Bout them Cowboys!"---Jimmy Johnson
"...and the Cowboys...STUN the Bills!"--ESPN MNF
more American's boo them
so i guess you’re right.
b4 panties begin bunching, i’m j/k.
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I bELIeve in ELI!!!! - Primetime -
The Big Boy Cometh....Team Jacobs
Marines say Oorah; BBVer's say SUAMBP! say it with me - Suuaahmbp!!!!
that's not luck
that’s divine intervention. different algorithm for that.
stop getting your made up stuff confused.
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I bELIeve in ELI!!!! - Primetime -
The Big Boy Cometh....Team Jacobs
Marines say Oorah; BBVer's say SUAMBP! say it with me - Suuaahmbp!!!!
So my eyes are now bleeding
It is obviously that the cowboys fans i mean some of you are bitter and have no idea on why you did not win. Us as fans all know the feeling and understand your heart ache. But to call the season Giants had as lucky is just ridiclous. So some facts for you to understand:
Injuries played a huge part of our issues this year. It seem we lost 3/4 of our starting defense by the first two weeks of the season. Along with a few offensive players. So instead of blaming that fact for the issue they had it was NEXT MAN UP enviroment amongst fans and the team itself.
Eli manning what else is there to be said without him we do not make the Super Bowl or win it. Hate him or love him he is a legit elite QB. Some amazing things he did last year including most clutch QB of all time. If you are a stats guy look it up. I know Romo had a good fourth quarter last year too. More on that later.
Last 9 games of the regular season our opponents record was a .715. WOW that is ridiclous schedule. So lets talk about the two games boys vs giants. we all know all teh rest do not matter because that is what won the division. First game JPP a monster you had no answer for all game and Eli played clutch as did Romo. Last game of the season we went up 24-0 at half in the “rain”. This game was never close even when you scored 14 on us in the third. The giants went to the prevent instead of keeping the pedal down. You can blame the defense but you need to blame your offense as much. Your line was not good that game.
So lets talk about LUCK. Was it luck in Green Bay was not a even more of a blow out. We had blown calls in that game alone by the refs that were obviously a call in our favor. Jennings fumble enough said. Guess what if the calls were right those miss passes do not even happen. We still talking about luck right. San Fran game was a defenseive battle. The only TWO plays that 49ers had against us was luck. Blown coverage. We still talking about luck correct. Stay with me on this. lets not talk about the fact they held tuck and jpp on just about every throwing play without a call thrown at them.
I can go on and on about luck in a game. It goes either way. I am one that does not believe in it. I believe in execution in a game. What you talking about is the Giants playing discpline football last part of the year. They executed when other did not. They did not turn the ball over. I am one that does not believe in rituals like wearing teh same jersey in same spot for all teh games. Nothing i do effects my team. So please hate all you want that the giants won the super bowl is fair enough but to call there accomplishment this year as a team as lucky just is low. I mean you have no intelligent arguement if you base your whole arguemtn on luck that is what OOC did. No disrespect to OCC at all. But it is a game of would have could have should have vs. did it. The Giants did it plain and simple.
"They got a big-mouthed coach, a big mouth and a big-bellied coach that talks too much and now it's finally time to shut up- Brandon Jacobs
I'll summarize this for those fo you who said "TL/DR"
“I don’t understand math, or randomness, and I refuse to evolve in football analysis past anything that Sean Salisbury says”
by Omar Little on Feb 21, 2012 11:37 AM CST up reply actions
Omar...
Little bit condescending.
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
Well randomness and variance are parts sports.
I mean the Dallas Mavericks probably weren’t the best team in basketball last season, but I doubt most fans care. The St. Louis Cardinals last year in baseball, the Giants the year before that, and other teams along the way got lucky in a few championship runs. To ignore this period you’re purposefully turning off the thinking part of your brain, which is exactly what Sean Salisbury does.
by Omar Little on Feb 22, 2012 12:07 AM CST up reply actions
I just disagree.
(my turn to be condescending) I don’t care if some egghead makes up a formula to try and apply luck to the outcome of football games. I’ll just chuckle mightily when I see the term, “luck score.”
Ernie Accorsi to Wellington Mara upon drafting Eli Manning, "This kid id going to win you a championship, and he's going to win you more than one."
Ernie is the Man(ning)
Then us eggheads will gladly laugh at you and NFL FOs will thank god that no one as dumb as you are works for them
I’m guessing you don’t follow other sports much. Football seems to be last bastion for neanderthal sports analysis.
by Omar Little on Feb 23, 2012 10:22 AM CST up reply actions
I don't like total points
They just don’t mean that much. Dallas had 22 net points, but if you take out the Bills game, they had -15 net points. Does beating up on a team that’s having a bad game really make you a better team over the course of a season? I don’t think so.
Did losing by 27 to the Eagles make us a worse team than if we lost by 2? No.
I also think it’s absolutely insane to call winning close games “lucky”. Luck is when things that aren’t in anybody’s control go your way. Throwing interceptions in the 4th quarter or letting a screen pass go for 52 yards in OT aren’t unlucky, they’re bad plays. A kicker being iced (whether it’s by his coach or the opposing coach) isn’t unlucky, they’re bad kicks. Things that are in someone’s direct control don’t come down to luck.
Well this is pretty dumb
You can’t take out a team’s best game and not their worst., and yes losing by 27 makes you worse than a team that loses by two. Do you understand what randomness is? There’s certain plays that will only work maybe 25% of the time, lets say it works three times in a row…pretty random event. For the team that it worked three times in a row they are “lucky,” because the randomness just happened to fall their way. It’s like getting a good bounce on a punt, but there’s other events of randomness to take into account.
by Omar Little on Feb 21, 2012 11:40 AM CST up reply actions
There is a problem bringing a baseball stat into football
In baseball all teams in division have the same schedule, and have a similar schedule in league, as well as 162 games to decrease the impact of “luck”.
Giants had toughest schedule in the NFL this year by 2010 record. In a 16-game season, that has a great impact on scorIng differential. Same reason Tampa went from a playoff contender to basement team with roughly the same roster.
My QB has 2 rings. Well, 3 if you want to get technical.
2012 NYG mock - 1: Dwayne Allen TE, 2: Brandon Boykin CB/RS, 3: A.J. Jenkins WR, 4: Vick Ballard RB, 5: Neiko Thorpe S, 6: Rishard Matthews WR/RS, 6: Blake DeChristopher G/T, 7: BPA
by ct17 on Feb 21, 2012 8:42 AM CST via mobile reply actions
You agreed with the main point...actually
You’re saying that in baseball there’s less chances for randomness given a 162 game schedule far less variance in a team’s performance, however given that in football there’s only 19 games played at most there’s more chances for randomness and variance to affect the game.
by Omar Little on Feb 21, 2012 11:42 AM CST up reply actions
No, because the main point was that scoring differential should predict the team's record
I disagree with that hypothesis. In a shorter season, there are many variables that could affect the score differential. A team that has a running game and play defense philosophy will generally keep the differential closer, and subject to less variation, then a team with a wide-open passing offense and little defense.
Or you could just look at the 8-8 teams and see the huge variation in scoring differential last year. Broncos were -81 and Eagles +68. Both teams were hot-and-cold, but Eagles won big with offensive speed and Broncos won close games with defense.
My QB has 2 rings. Well, 3 if you want to get technical.
2012 NYG mock - 1: Dwayne Allen TE, 2: Brandon Boykin CB/RS, 3: A.J. Jenkins WR, 4: Vick Ballard RB, 5: Neiko Thorpe S, 6: Rishard Matthews WR/RS, 6: Blake DeChristopher G/T, 7: BPA
The Eagles should be a lot better next year
They have cap space and addressable needs, pretty underrated team this year. You think the Giants have a pass rush…. As to the Broncos, they were quite a different team, Tim Tebow wasn’t QB the whole season and he was very very erratic. He would go from having completion percentages lower than Miguel Cabrera’s batting average to being a hero late in the game, which explains the negative point differential. When the Broncos were good, they were merely just good enough and when they were bad they were downright awful. There are other variables but those are typically outliers, or situations due to injury. Like lets say Aaron Rodgers misses the first four games of the next season, the Packers still make the playoffs but their point differential would likely not suggest how good they really are. Variables exist, but for true exceptions there’s usually outliers.
by Omar Little on Feb 22, 2012 12:11 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, but neither of us really want that, do we?
It might be fun laughing at the Eagles fans on BGN for one more year. They can be good again in 2013.
My QB has 2 rings. Well, 3 if you want to get technical.
2012 NYG mock - 1: Dwayne Allen TE, 2: Brandon Boykin CB/RS, 3: A.J. Jenkins WR, 4: Vick Ballard RB, 5: Neiko Thorpe S, 6: Rishard Matthews WR/RS, 6: Blake DeChristopher G/T, 7: BPA
I mean a Super Bowl run is still highly improbable.
Giants might be a little worse next year and the Eagles and Cowboys will probably be improved. Either way a SB run is still highly improbable for any team in the NFC East next year.
by Omar Little on Feb 23, 2012 10:24 AM CST up reply actions
Since 1988
applying the Pythagorean formula has determined 13 of the last 23 (or a little over 50%) of SB winners after the regular season. I suppose that’s better than picking out of a hat where you have 1/12 of a chance….but with a more informed guess, when the playoffs start, someone well acquainted to the game could probably better those odds.
"We will not be denied." - Antrel Rolle
by BigBlueIntervention on Feb 21, 2012 3:07 PM CST up reply actions
Well the best team doesn't always win too.
The Jets managed to go to back to back AFC Championship games…does that mean that in back to back years that they were the 2nd best team in the AFC? Of course not, this furthers my conspiracy theory that there is a leprechaun that’s being held hostage in the Meadowlands. I don’t think many people would have picked the Pack last year, or the Steelers in 2008. So even people are wrong too. Of course, the pythag record isn’t perfect, I don’t think anyone said it was. However, it does serve as an important indicator as to luck. This Giants team that won the Super Bowl managed to lose to the Redskins twice, TWICE!!!!! Variance and randomness go both ways.
by Omar Little on Feb 22, 2012 12:14 AM CST up reply actions
I define luck this way....
Having one franchise being stupid enough to trade away a lifetime of draft picks for a big name RB. THAT is luck.
Even still...
You have to be good enough to correctly use those draft picks, remember when the Redskins got an entire draft just for NO to move up two spots? Definitely a great trade, but you still need luck to use that correctly. It’s not the same as in game luck, like a guy making perhaps the best catch ever (and never making another catch in his NFL career) or Kyle Williams. Fun fact: NY owes two championships to the Williams family:
Robbing Kenny Williams of Nick Swisher in 2009 and having his son fumble a punt TWICE deep in Giants territory.
by Omar Little on Feb 22, 2012 11:28 AM CST up reply actions
So the fact the Giants player punched the ball OUT of his hands was luck too right instead of execution on the play? i say this if all this keep you guys awake at night thinking Americas Team gotten Rob because of the Giants LUCK this past year then i am laughing really hard. Can not wait for next years excuses to start flying? It was the Sun that got in my eye, it was the other teams cheeer leaders doing a split on why i did not make a play. I love that it BURNS every team that giants have won twice in 5 years. Fact that Eli is SB MVP x2 got to hurt you guys. I tried to be nice about the whole debate here but it gone beyond pathetic at this point.
Luck we won against ALL those teams in the playoffs. Atlanta we destroyed, packers it could have been a bigger spread if it was not for the refs and san fran should have never been that close. Niners were a tale of two plays all game. refs with phantom holding plays and interference never called cost us drives. So i say if we going to play luck take that into count too.
"They got a big-mouthed coach, a big mouth and a big-bellied coach that talks too much and now it's finally time to shut up- Brandon Jacobs
Oh the hilarity.
Basically the debate falls into two categories:
People who understand randomness, variance, luck, and sample sizes and those who don’t. It’s okay, the human brain isn’t programmed to understand either of those things, and definitely the average football fan definitely isn’t programmed to understand any of these things.
No one is saying it was all luck, you’re the only one that’s saying that it’s all skill and that luck had nothing to do with it. Yes, it was luck that Kyle Williams fumbled TWICE deep in Giants territory. You’re attributing everything good that happened to the Giants as “skill” but everything bad as “luck,” you are the prototype of the typical dimwitted football fan. Given how big baseball is in NY I would hope that the empirical way of looking at sports would make it through that thick empty skull of yours, but I guess I was wrong. Yeah, Atlanta was a good win as was GB…no one’s saying that they weren’t. San Fran? Please, the officiating was terrible all the way around. Officiating in sports has devolved to a level where they pretty much need robot officials in all sports.
OCC is simply pointing out that the Giants had a pretty fluky run to the SB…they lost to the Redskins, twice and the Seahawks once. It’s not that far of a stretch to say that they weren’t the best team in the NFL, therefore winning the SB is lucky by definition. While you’ve made it abundantly clear that math isn’t your strong suit, I have a degree in mathematics and I’m pretty sure OCC has advanced knowledge of statistics and math. Maybe you should leave math to the smart people, and if OCC or myself has a question about leaving a couch on our lawns, what wife beaters are the most comfortable, or how to develop a poor wiping technique we’ll give you a call.
As to two SBs in five years? I recall very fondly the days when NoMaas had a good message board, one thread was titled “Two in Five = Dynasty” referring to the Boston Red Sox…I’ll let you chew on that for a bit.
by Omar Little on Feb 23, 2012 10:35 AM CST up reply actions
And stop pretending like NOTHING went the Giants way this year...
Every team experiences lucky breaks en route to the Championship, OCC is just pointing out that the Giants experienced more than most this year. Not quite as many as they did in 2007 (which was awesome) but definitely quite a few.
by Omar Little on Feb 22, 2012 11:30 AM CST up reply actions

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