Can Victor Butler Step In For Anthony Spencer?
by Archie Barberio on Feb 22, 2012 9:00 PM CST
in Dallas Cowboys General
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PrintThe most talked about Dallas Cowboys player these days has to be free agent outside linebacker Anthony Spencer. There are three ways the Cowboys front office can handle his situation. They can place the franchise tag on Anthony Spencer and lock him up for one more season at $8.8 million dollars. Another option would be to simply move on from Anthony Spencer. That option would require the Cowboys to either sign a pass rusher in free agency, or draft a pass rusher in the 2012 NFL Draft.
But what about the third option? His name is Victor Butler and I believe that he is a young, up and coming player. Let's take a closer look at Victor Butler and learn more about him.
Take the jump
Victor Butler was productive during his career at Oregon State. He blew up in his senior season and had 65 tackles, 12 sacks, 4 forced fumbles and 21.5 tackles for loss. Butler left Oregon State ranked second on the all-time sacks leader list with 26 sacks, and fourth all-time in tackles for loss with 39.5. In the chart below you can see all of the Cowboys outside linebackers and their Production Ratio. Victor Butler is just behind Anthony Spencer in that formula.
With Victor Butler having a similar Production Ratio to Anthony Spencer, that makes me believe that the two are similar players. Anthony Spencer was a first-round pick, while Victor Butler was just a fourth-round pick. Maybe Butler was an overachiever in college, but his college production rivals that of a first rounder.
Production Ratio For The Cowboys Outside Linebackers
This table compares college production for Victor Butler, DeMarcus Ware, Anthony Spencer and Alex Albright using the Production Ratio. Production Ratio = (Sacks + Tackles for Loss)/ Games played
| Draft Round / Pick | Player | School | Sks | TFL | Games | Production Ratio |
| Round: 1 / Pick: 11 |
DeMarcus Ware |
Troy | 27.5 | 57 | 43 | 1.96 |
| Round: 1 / Pick: 26 |
Anthony Spencer |
Purdue | 21 | 44 | 47 | 1.38 |
| Round: 4 / Pick: 110 | Victor Butler | Oregon St. |
25.5 | 39.5 | 49 | 1.33 |
| Undrafted | Alex Albright | Boston College | 14 | 30 | 30 | 1.47 |
In the 2009 Sun Bowl, Butler put on a performance that made the NFL scouts take notice. He racked up 11 tackles, 5 tackles for loss, 4 sacks and 1 forced fumble. It was a fitting end to a great career at Oregon State. The scouting reports on Butler said a lot of the same things. The positives detailed his speed and burst as a pass rusher. The negatives focused on him being undersized (6-2, 249) and labeled him as a "tweener". Most draft services had ranked him as a mid to late-round pick.
The Cowboys drafted him with the 110th pick in the fourth round of the 2009 NFL Draft. Unfortunately the 2009 draft class wasn't a good one for the Cowboys. Butler may be the best player of that draft class and he has contributed in a backup role. He had a productive rookie season registering 3 sacks and early on, it was clear that we had something in him. In three seasons with the Cowboys, he has 8 career sacks. Those aren't eye popping figures, but he has shown us he can be a solid pass rusher with limited snaps.
Victor Butler's Snap Count and PFF Grades From 2009-2011
| 2009 | 2010 | 2011 | |
| Snaps | 112 | 158 | 233 |
| Grade | -3.8 | +7.0 | +7.0 |
PFF didn't grade Butler out positively for his rookie season in 2009, but they have given him a +7.0 rating the past two years. PFF definitely sees something in him and his play on the field. Consider that Anthony Spencer played 939 snaps in 2011 and he racked up just 6 sacks. Victor Butler had 3 sacks in just 233 snaps. The question that should interest us is, what can Victor Butler do with an increase in playing time in the base defense?
Rob Ryan has made it crystal clear that he needs his outside linebackers to be pass rushers. The outside linebackers in this 3-4 scheme need to generate pressure and be productive against the run. We all know that Spencer does a great job against the run, but he leaves a lot more to be desired as a pass rusher. Butler may be one of the most underrated pass rushers on the team. If the Cowboys would be willing to sacrifice some of his deficiencies against the run and take the upgrade in pass rushing, then he would be a candidate to replace Spencer.
Butler has the tools to become a weapon in Rob Ryan's 3-4 defense. His speed and acceleration are very good. Due to his speed, I believe he could overtake Spencer in the base defense. The reason Spencer has been tagged with the "Almost Anthony" nickname is due to his lack of pass rushing speed. When you compare Anthony Spencer's and Victor Butler's combine workouts, they are actually very similar. Both ran in the 4.7 range in the 40 yard dash, and both of them had similar short shuttles and vertical jumps. When I watch them rushing the passer, the eye test shows me that Victor Butler has better overall speed and acceleration.
Another hot topic has been Butler's size and many wonder if he can durable. He stands in at 6-2 and weighs in at 249 pounds. Anthony Spencer stands in at 6-3 and weighs in at 257 pounds. If the Cowboys decide to go with Butler, they would only be sacrificing 1 inch and 8 pounds. James Harrison of the Pittsburgh Steelers is only 6-0 and 242 pounds. Elvis Dumervil of the Denver Broncos is just 5-11 and 260 pounds. Both have had success in the 3-4 defense at outside linebacker. So let's not underestimate Butler just because of his size.
Head Coach Jason Garrett has placed a emphasis on quality character. The shift to the "RKG" approach in personnel will continue to take over the Cowboys culture. In this Associated Press article from last year, Garrett talked about Butler and his growing responsibility.
"I don't want to say he's one of the more veteran players on the team, but there are a lot more younger guys around, so all of a sudden he feels a little bit more established," coach Jason Garrett said. "Maybe (he) takes a little responsibility with that and hopefully continues to grow."
Knowing that Jason Garrett is a supporter of Butler is a good thing. Butler was a team captain at Oregon State and he appears to come across as the "RKG". He is a hard worker on and off the field and he sounds like a genuine person who loves the game of football. Ever since Spencer publicly admitted to quitting during the 2010 season, I have wanted to make sure we have guys on this team that are passionate about the game of football.
The question that many Cowboys fans have asked, is why was Victor Butler used so sparingly last year? Reports coming out of training camp last year detailed the potential rise of Butler. The 2011 season never materialized into Victor Butler's breakout campaign like many of us had envisioned. You have to wonder why Rob Ryan was reluctant to use him more in his hybrid defense. It is possible that the Cowboys aren't convinced that he can handle a full time load.
What happens with Anthony Spencer in free agency and the approach the Cowboys take in the draft will determine how Victor Butler is utilized in 2012. If the Cowboys are confident that Butler can average at least 65 tackles and 5 sacks a year, then they may decide to roll with him as the starting outside linebacker opposite of DeMarcus Ware. I believe that we can replace Spencer's production by moving in another direction. My ideal course of action would be a combination of Victor Butler and a high draft pick. At the end of the day, it is all up to the Cowboys front office and what makes them feel most comfortable.
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I've been saying it all along...
Victor Butler needs to get on the field. The guy is a beast. Keep Spencer and replace James and Brooking with Carter and Butler.
"If you are prepared, you will be confident, and will do the job." Tom Landry
"The difference between extraordinary and ordinary, is that little extra". Jimmy Johnson
...and I have him as a friend on Facebook
Thursday Jan 6, 2011--Doin' things the 'Cowboy Way'
Ware-wolves--(DeMarcus Ware, Jay Ratliff, Sean Lee, Anthony Spencer) Get 'em!
by DWare94_JRat90 on Feb 23, 2012 12:22 PM CST up reply actions
Hybrid packages
At bare minimum he needs to be in more often, in one of the “psycho” sub-packages like the packers ran a lot in 2010
by fearthestar94 on Feb 22, 2012 9:06 PM CST via iPhone app reply actions
I like Butler and what he offers
He seems like a great guy to have in when RR runs his many LB formations, he also great to have when the starters to a break. But I do not think that he is the answer to replace Spencer we need to continue to look for the right guy. But hey maybe he just needs a chance to really prove himself.
"This team is going to win a Super Bowl at some point. It's going to be exciting when that time comes. And when we look back, we'll know who was on what side of the fence during those tough moments." - Tony Romo
I honestly think that its the sentence of what you said.
If you look back the times he struggled most were at the end of the season when our D was pretty beat up with Dware and Rat both playing through injuries. He would struggle the most when Ware was out but seemed to do fine while he was in. I think that he would more then replace Spencer with Ware being in fulltime. He doesn’t do as well against the double teams but has a high motor and is persitant so he doesn’t stop rushing the QB til the ball is out. I’ve never seen him give up on a play and though he’s been pushed around a bit I still believe he can be really good with extended starting time.
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Feb 23, 2012 6:53 AM CST up reply actions
No way should Spencer get 8.8 million
If Jason Crick falls to them in the 2nd round he can help rush the QB and really help pressure the QB. Like many on the board I would like DeCastro in the 1st. If it plays out that way they will have to pick up a good CB in free agency and still find CB help in the draft. I like what I have seen from Butler.
I stand corrected
I like his profile in the Huddle report. Drew Boylhart has him as the top DL in the draft. If he is anything like JJ Watt he will make a huge difference.
4th Option...
And there’s the fourth option with Spencer. We sign him to a new contract at considerably less the $8.8M franchise.
If the Boys (JJ & Company) are confident that Butler can replace Spencer than by all means. We can put the money towards our many other needs.
We’ll see how this all pans out in the next couple of weeks. If the Boys were ready to move on from Spencer…and Butler was ready to go…it’s seems to me we would have heard that already from Steven Jones?
I can’t see the francise tag…$8.8M for Spencer? No….
I don’t know if Spencer is worth $5M…guess we’ll find out what the Boys believe he’s worth soon…or certainly once free agency starts…
not a fair comparison
Its not a fair comparison . When Butler comes into the game, it is usually to specifically rush the passer. And im kinda tired if the “haters” on Anthony Spencer ,so I found a good article that puts it into perspective….thank you reclinerQB.com , ive enclosed the link, and its a good read
http://www.reclinerqb.com/2012/02/q-what-should-cowboys-do-with-anthony.html
So why hasn’t Spencer been real effective in generating sacks? Well for one he comes from the strong side, the left side of the defense (right side of the offense), and since most quarterbacks are right handed they can always see him coming which makes it easier to avoid the sack by dumping the ball off or throwing it away. He is also used in coverage quite a bit more, and teams generally run to the strong side more often than the weak side, which means he takes quite a pounding from the extra tight end, the pulling guard and center, and the lead blocker (fullback), all of their jobs are basically to get a full head of steam and blow the linebacker out of the water.
So now that we understand a little bit more of why he doesn’t get a lot of sacks, are there other stats that will more accurately reflect his effectiveness? I am glad you asked because yes there are. Lets first take a look at team stats, where he is one of the leading tacklers on the team, he is also leading the team in forced fumbles with 8. These numbers tell me that not only is he around the ball, A LOT, he is good at getting the ball on the ground, and there is no bigger battle that leads to wins in the NFL than turnovers.
To make sure that we are comparing apples-to-apples, how does he stack up against other 3-4 OLB’s in the NFL:
1st in total tackles
1st (tied) in forced fumbles
1st (tied) in tackles for loss
2nd in quarterback hurries
5th (tied) in sacks
Wow! Looks like Spencer is an impact outside linebacker in the NFL!
by gogokroz on Feb 22, 2012 9:24 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
LaMarr Woodley
plays Anthony Spencer’s position in Pittsburgh, and has 48 career sacks compared to Spencer’s 21. Both were drafted in 2007.
Tag Team name for Sean Lee and Bruce Carter is RUSH HOUR
yea
Woodley also has 41 less tackles, less passes defensed ,less forced fumbles, . Lamar Woodley is a beast. No denying that . Lebeaux uses Woodley to get after the QB more. Also helps that the Pittsburgh D has a big D line , that pushes the pocket ,and doesnt allow QBS to ste up in the pocket like ours does. Can you imagine how many sacks DWare would have if we had a NT that could push the pocket back , and Spencer would have more too
Woodley also missed 4 games to injury in 2011
Those tackle numbers would be much closer.
Woodley also has more defensive TDs scored.
I don’t disagree that a NT would really help this defense. However, lets not pretend that Spencer barely rushes the passer. He gets after the QB 70% of the time. He lacks the strength, explosion, and closing speed to finish those plays off with sacks.
Tag Team name for Sean Lee and Bruce Carter is RUSH HOUR
by Rohpuri on Feb 22, 2012 10:20 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
looked
looked pretty explosive when he hurdled that defender and blocked that kick.
One instance is not enough to counter the years of quitting.
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Feb 23, 2012 7:16 AM CST up reply actions
He may rush 70% of the time
But he doesn’t have the opportunity that his counter part does when rushing. I’d call it more of an option rush for lack or better terms. He has his presnap reads like always. OK ball is snapped step up and engage blocker first read run OK no run second read running back into the flat no back is blocking now I get after qb. Or if te on his side you know the drill. Anyways point is just cause he rushed the passer doesn’t mean that’s was his only job once ball is snapped and that alone leaves him a few steps behind the guy who’s sole intention that play is to flatten the qb. I honestly do think people are wanting something that even if he a pure pass rusher would still disappoint. Another thing I’d like to see the stats on is how many intentional grounding calls where called when Spencer was on the heals of the qb this year. I know of two that I can remember off the top of my head. Cause in my book that’s a sack loss of down and yards. Its just not recorded as a sack so with those two Spencer is at 8 sacks.
by Sado44 on Feb 23, 2012 12:29 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
+1, I've said it before as well.
In comparison to Woodley though…
1-although both teams run a 3-4 they run them and utilize positions differently
2-Better dline and secondary in Pitt, a coverage sack or a collapsed pocket would help Spencer.
I’d like to keep Spencer I think he is undervalued, but with all the needs on this team if all we can do is retain him on the FT then I think we need to move on with other options and utilize that $8.8 in other areas. I hope they can work out a long term contract, but IDK if he wants to stay.
On another note I am looking forward to see how the Cowboys handle the free agency period. I need some new Cowboys news!
It's not a different 34 defense
LaMarr Woodley is asked to do the exact same things as Anthony Spencer. Woodley just happens to be the more talented player. There’s no harm in admitting that. Woodley drops into coverage just as much as Spencer does.
Tag Team name for Sean Lee and Bruce Carter is RUSH HOUR
by Rohpuri on Feb 23, 2012 11:21 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
It's not the same either,
I’m not trying to state who’s the better player, but that Woodley has some benefits that Spencer does not and vice versa I’m sure.
Regardless my position still is:
I’d like to keep Spencer I think he is undervalued, but with all the needs on this team if all we can do is retain him on the FT then I think we need to move on with other options and utilize that $8.8 in other areas. I hope they can work out a long term contract, but IDK if he wants to stay.
On another note I am looking forward to see how the Cowboys handle the free agency period. I need some new Cowboys news!
They are totally
different schemes. The Steelers run Dick LeBeau’s zone blitz scheme. The Steelers can have their DEs drop into coverage. The Cowboys never do that. Their DEs are too big to chase RBs.
Your wrong there its not the same design.
Woodly rushing the passer roughly the same as Spencer ill.give you that but the majority of his are rush first if you watch lebaux usually pulls his Saftey up to cover the run when he rushes. They slide a linebacker over to handle the flat Dallas expects Spencer.to cover run and flat first then rush. This is easily seen in how they run there other positions when he rushes.
by Sado44 on Feb 23, 2012 2:36 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
Career comparison of Woodley and Spencer
Spencer: 76 games played, 266 tackles, 21.5 sacks, 10 passes defensed, 1 INT, 10FFs.
Woodley: 70 games played, 225 tackles, 48 sacks, 14 passes defensed, 4 INTs, 1 TD, 7 FFs.
You tell me who the better 34 LOLB/SOLB is?
Tag Team name for Sean Lee and Bruce Carter is RUSH HOUR
by Rohpuri on Feb 23, 2012 11:27 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Woodley, obviously
But just like players like Ware don’t come along too often, players like Woodley don’t come along too often.
The Steelers with their continuity and their identity know much better how to draft front-seven players.
Additionally, nobody wants to pay Spencer as much as Woodley. If he’s 3/4ths of the player Woodley is, then he should be paid as such.
There's always money in the banana stand.
yeah
But Spencer is sooooooo awesome against the run. (sarcasm)
I’d take Woodley over Almost anyday.
On what planet is Almost worth 8.8 mil?
I’ll give you a hint…
It’s not this one.
The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
by sirjason22 on Feb 23, 2012 12:22 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Yes woodly is better than Spencer that's not debatable.
What is debatable is the fact that an available replacement for Spencer not being better. No matter how you slice it no free agent available for him is better. Possibly an equal in the draft but that is a big maybe there. Avril has never played olb so he isn’t a known. That’s my point he can not be replaced this year.
by Sado44 on Feb 23, 2012 2:41 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
So what year do you replace him ?
Spencer isn’t good enough to be considered a lifer. At some point you have to move on. That has been one of the Cowboys problems. They hold on to mediocrity too long. Cut bait and move in a different direction. Spencer was ANOTHER mediocre choice in the first round. Traded up for no less.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Feb 23, 2012 4:03 PM CST up reply actions
Isn't Ahmad Brooks available?
Compare Anthony Spencer’s Career to Ahmad Brooks
Anthony Spencer’s career: 76 games, 266 tackles, 21.5 sacks, 10 passes defended, 1INT, 0 TDs, 10 FFs.
Ahmad Brooks’ career (drafted in 2006): 58 games, 139 tackles, 20 sacks, 9 passes defensed, 1 INT, 7FFs
Compare Anthony Spencer’s 2011 season to Ahmad Brooks
Anthony Spencer’s 2011 Season: 16 games, 66 tackles, 6 sacks, 1 pass defended, 4 FFs
Ahmad Brooks’ 2011 Season (1st season as a starter): 16 games, 50 tackles, 7 sacks, 3 passes defensed, 1 FF
Tag Team name for Sean Lee and Bruce Carter is RUSH HOUR
Good point.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Feb 23, 2012 7:45 PM CST up reply actions
So are you
saying Brooks is better because he had one more sack in 2011? One sack is one play. I don’t get this.
He's saying that they're basically equal.
And both are available. Would you pay 8.8 million for 1 year for Brooks? Do you think the 49ers are giving any thought to franchising him?
by Baked Potato Soup on Feb 24, 2012 8:33 AM CST up reply actions
Mac_Eleven you'll love this
In the 2007 Draft had we not traded away the #36 to Philly for the #26, we still would have had our choice of Woodley or Spencer.
Guess what Philly did with the 36th pick? They used it on Kevin Kolb, and last year flipped Kevin Kolb to the Cardinals for their 2012 second rd pick + Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie.
Tag Team name for Sean Lee and Bruce Carter is RUSH HOUR
by Rohpuri on Feb 22, 2012 10:13 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Moot point here
You think we would have picked kolb and made the same trade. That is a hindsight showing it knows all again. Can’t say we could have cause we didn’t and that is fact.
by Sado44 on Feb 23, 2012 12:32 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
It's not about us picking Kolb, I never said that.
My premise from day 1 (since we drafted Spencer) has been we did not need to trade up for him when he would’ve been there at #36.
The Eagles trading Kolb just makes that trade for the #26 pick look even more dumb.
Tag Team name for Sean Lee and Bruce Carter is RUSH HOUR
And you know this cause
We took Spencer at 26 so how do you know he wouldn’t have been there had we not taken him where we did. I can’t say I know for sure just saying is all.
by Sado44 on Feb 23, 2012 1:49 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
Go wikipedia the 2007 NFL Draft
When we traded up to #26 we had the choice between Spencer and Woodley. Had we stayed put at #36 we still have the choice between Spencer and Woodley. Woodley wasn’t taken until the 40s by the Steelers.
Tag Team name for Sean Lee and Bruce Carter is RUSH HOUR
by Rohpuri on Feb 23, 2012 2:38 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
But since Spencer was off the board at 26 you can't say he would have been there at 36.
Its impossible to know how teams had him ranked obviously the cowboys had him above woodly. So no you can’t know for sure.
by Sado44 on Feb 23, 2012 2:43 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
Well,
I’m going off the fact that when Dallas took Spencer there wasn’t a huge run on pass rushers which followed, only Paul Posluzny was drafted in between the Spencer and Woodley picks.
Tag Team name for Sean Lee and Bruce Carter is RUSH HOUR
Spencer was WAY over drafted. Period. End of story. Just like Felix.
It ain’t hard.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Feb 23, 2012 7:44 PM CST up reply actions
That's from a spectators point of view.
I’d love to say the giants won a Superbowl cause they got lucky but the fact is they won cause they played better than there competition. Dallas drafted Spencer for a specific role. You can say what you want Mensa but no one but the Dallas cowboys staff knows if he has fulfilled that or not. If he gets payed by Dallas this year guess that answers our questions.
by Sado44 on Feb 24, 2012 12:10 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
I have no question about Spencer.
He wasn’t worth a first rounder. Woodley is better. Again Jerry picked the wrong guy just like Felix. 08 may go down as the greatest rb draft in history and we picked the change of pace back up. It’s Jerry’s m.o. to make the wrong decision.
Spencer isn’t worth close to 8 mil a year. He has also admitted he quit on some plays. That says it all. As Ro said earlier , do you think the 9er’s are thinking about franchising Brooks for 8 mil a year ?
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Feb 24, 2012 8:37 AM CST up reply actions
So since
Woodley is better we shouldn’t resign Spencer? That makes no sense. Give Spencer a 5 year deal worth 40mil with a 10 mil signing bonus. Allocate the bonus over the first two years. That way, if he doesn’t play well, you can cut him with no cap hit after the second year. Woodley is better than Spencer and Woodley is getting 61.5 mil over 6 years. I think that’s fair for everybody.
They play
two entirely different schemes. Besides, they don’t have Ware and we don’t have Polomalu. Duh. Stop comparing apples and oranges.
Scheme doesn't change position
Scheme would bemore like comparing Granny Smith apples (spencer) Golden Delicious (woodley). Both are still appples however they are entirely different apples.
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Feb 23, 2012 7:27 AM CST up reply actions
Scheme changes
what your responsbilities are. Also, Woodley doesn’t play opposite a HOF pass rusher. Spencer gets all the dirty work and Ware gets the glory.
Whoa now I'm no fan of Harrison but he's pretty damn good
The only reason he won’t see the HOF is cuz he viewed as a dirty player not becuase he is lacking in skills.
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Feb 23, 2012 8:35 AM CST up reply actions
Scheme doesn't change it that much
Woodley is asked to do all of the things Spencer is asked to do (coverage & run defense) & is still a much better pass rusher. He drops into coverage a higher % of the time compared to Spencer & still puts up much better #’s rushing the passer.
by Gen_cornrow_wallace on Feb 23, 2012 8:48 AM CST up reply actions
James Harrison may or may not be a HoF like Ware
However both Harrison and Ware are 4 time all-pros.
Since 2007: James Harrison has 54 sacks; In that same time, LaMarr Woodley has 48 sacks.
James Harrison may not be on DeMarcus Ware’s HOF level, but he’s definitely a really good player in his own right.
Tag Team name for Sean Lee and Bruce Carter is RUSH HOUR
by Rohpuri on Feb 23, 2012 11:32 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Yes,
but you conveniently left out the fact that Greg Ellis played SOLB on passing downs for the Cowboys in Spencer’s first two years. Just to be fair.
good point,
but also, I think most everyone is in agreement that Spencer is not an excellent pass rusher. He’s not as good as Woodley. Yes, we should have stayed put and drafted Woodley. We didn’t. Spencer shouldn’t be paid as much as Woodley.
There's always money in the banana stand.
I never said
Spencer should be paid as much as Woodley. Romo isn’t as good as Brady but I don’t hear anyone complaining about getting rid of Romo. Here is PFF’s rating for all OLBs from 2008-2010. Surprise, surprise.
http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/07/18/making-the-grade-3-4-outside-linebackers/
Did you read what it said about him?
It basically said he had a great 2009 and then seemed to settle into being a role player in 2010. 2011 was more of that. If you look at his yearly numbers there, it supports that. Should we be treating and paying him like 2009 Spencer, or 2008, 2010, and 2011 Spencer?
The guy is rated about the 10th best 3-4 OLB, and that’s with Ware attracting the attention that he does. I think that other guys out there that put up similar pass rush numbers would benefit from playing opposite Ware, rather than do worse than they do opposite an inferior player. If he’s going to get paid in that range, 10th to 15th best 3-4 OLB, then I’m all for resigning him.
by Baked Potato Soup on Feb 23, 2012 1:01 PM CST up reply actions
You cannot
find the words “role player” anywhere in that narrative. How he should be treated is based on how he performed and how he is measured against his peers. The guys PFF rated ahead of him are paid as follows:
James Harrison 6 years 51.75 mil
Lemarr Woodley 6 years 61.5 mil
DeMarcus Ware 7 years 79 mil
Tamba Hali 5 years 57.5 mil
Now how you get to Spencer being rated 10-15th best is beyond me. PFF has no axe to grind while I believe a lot of people on this blog have taken a “sacks only” measurement of Spencer. You don’t have to buy the PFF rating. That’s up to you. But if a Woodley is getting 10 mil why is Spencer getting 8 mil so out of bounds? Spencer beats or ties Woodley in every area except sacks. It’s not like the other stuff doesn’t count.
He gave you his impression that the article came off as saying Spencer settled into role player status
Reading comprehension fail?
Tag Team name for Sean Lee and Bruce Carter is RUSH HOUR
Excuse me?
“He gave me his impression……..etc. So I’m supposed to know through some form of Jedi mind trick that he did not specifically mean exactly what he wrote? Sorry, I took his writing in the literal sense that I assumed it was offered. Normal people do not comprehend what is not stated. He never said that it was “his impression.” You said that and no one was talking to you. Did you comprehent that?
I'll just quote it.
It really looked like Spencer was about ready to breakout after a 2009 where he was hitting the quarterback as much as anyone. He wasn’t terrible in 2010, but he seemed to find the shadow of DeMarcus Ware and rest in it. Sure, he’s an all-around player who contributes as much as anyone on running downs, but he didn’t really bring the heat. Works well with Ware, allowing him to attack the passer more.
If you go to 2009, you’ll see that he was the 3rd ranked 3-4 OLB, out of 28 players that qualified by playing at least 25% of their team’s defensive snaps. In 2010, he was ranked 9th. In 2011, he was ranked 10th. That is where I got 10th. I ask again, should we be paying him based on his one great year, 2009, or on the past 2 years?
by Baked Potato Soup on Feb 23, 2012 11:48 PM CST up reply actions
And I got 10th to 15th because I graded him on a curve.
He has DeMarcus Ware attracting all kinds of attention on the other side, so his numbers should be better. He was tied for 12th in sacks among 3-4 OLBs with 5 other players. He was also 9th in pressures and 10th in QB hits. No other player had the benefit of DeMarcus Ware on the other side like Spencer has. Based on that, I think any of those other 5 guys would have put up better numbers than him if they were opposite Ware, and his numbers would have been worse opposite anyone else.
by Baked Potato Soup on Feb 24, 2012 12:01 AM CST up reply actions
Remember,
in 2009 he played exclusively in Wade’s one gap system. Wade got fired in 2010 halfway through the season. That gave Spencer another D-Coordinator and I’m sure some variations on his duties. In 2011, Rob Ryan comes along and puts in a two gap system which is a “stop the run first” system. So simply based on the observations you outlined above, Spencer seems to be a more effective pass rusher in a one gap scheme which is exactly what that scheme is designed to do. Hit the gap and get to the QB. Seems simple enough to me.
He had sacks in 4 games in 2009.
His PFF cumulative numbers for that season were helped out by having 2 additional games where he played well, due to the Cowboys making the playoffs.
PFF grades vs an average player, therefore the scheme shouldn’t matter. The question they ask is, did he perform his job on each play better or worse than an average replacement would. Spencer’s grade vs the run in 2009 was higher than 2010 and 2011 combined. Again, we see evidence of him excelling for one year, and settling in as a good but not great player every other year, even with him playing the run first. It shouldn’t matter what his responsibility is, because he is graded for what an average player with the same responsibilities would do on each play. His pass rush ratings in 2009 were also higher than 2010 and 2011 combined. His pass coverage and penalty ratings were worse in 2011 than either 2009 or 2010.
He’s a good player, but not great. Many 3-4 OLB could perform similarly or better on this team, with DeMarcus Ware attracting the attention that he does. An example of this is Ware getting triple teamed against the NYJ and Sanchez getting flushed out of the pocket to Spencer, who was actually in coverage. Some people say that being in coverage hurts him, but a third of his sacks last year came when he was in coverage and the QB was flushed to him.
Shaun Phillips is a similar player and makes about 5 million per year. If Spencer resigned for that, I think it would be great. For almost 9 million per year, or really anything above 5, I think we’re getting ripped off.
by Baked Potato Soup on Feb 24, 2012 8:59 AM CST up reply actions
As for
paying Spencer, a fair deal would be around 5 years and 40 mil with a 10 mi l signing bonus. I would then structure the deal where the signing bonus would be totally paid in the first two years. You then are able to keep the cap hit to 5 to 5.5 mil the first two years. If he doesn’t play well, you can cut him with no
salary cap hit whatsoever.
Remember, the Cowboys have 22mil coming off the cap next year in addition to NFL salary cap going up. That is a fair deal for both parties.
I didn't say you did.
I was basically agreeing with you. Pay him as much as he’s worth, which should be something like 3/4ths of what Woodley’s worth.
There's always money in the banana stand.
Wait. What?
Compared to other 3-4 OLBs last year: 12th in sacks, 9th in QB pressures, 10th in QB hits.
Didn’t he drop back into coverage like 70 more times than Ware, or less than 5 more plays per game? He’s dropping back in coverage so much that he had 0 INTs and 1 pass defensed, and a 115.2 QB rating against him.
Also, he had 4 forced fumbles last year and 10 for his career. I’m not sure where the 8 comes from.
by Baked Potato Soup on Feb 22, 2012 11:00 PM CST up reply actions
Thanks for chiming in Baked Potato Soup
nicely done
Tag Team name for Sean Lee and Bruce Carter is RUSH HOUR
by Rohpuri on Feb 22, 2012 11:18 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Now all you
have to do is come up with all of the 3-4 SOLBS that are better than him. I’ll just wait for that…
Just so we're all clear here
the 34 LOLB=SOLB and 34 ROLB=WOLB
I named 5 guys for their careers and 5 guys for 2011 who play the 34 LOLB/SOLB position that I’d rather have over Anthony Spencer.
Tag Team name for Sean Lee and Bruce Carter is RUSH HOUR
I've done it in the past.
Search my posts if you really want to see it. Rohpuri gives his own shorter list below.
Regardless, that doesn’t change the fact that the post I responded to tried to double his forced fumbles for the year and inflate his other rankings to justify keeping him.
by Baked Potato Soup on Feb 23, 2012 3:06 AM CST up reply actions
I see what you did there.
But hey its OK. Now subtract all those lolb and just do the strong side and see what you get. Oh wait no no never mind bad idea. sorry I almost made your point not valid at all I’m sorry man. No seriously though strong side and weakside backers don’t do the same thing and one has historically always been a higher stat line than the other.
by Sado44 on Feb 23, 2012 12:37 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
No apologies
necessary. All i ever want is for a man to get a fair shake. Peace out.
34 LOLBs/SOLBs who are comparable/better than Spencer
A) Spencer’s career: 76 games, 266 tackles, 21.5 sacks, 10 passes defended, 1INT, 0 TDs, 10 FFs.
1) LaMarr Woodley’s career: 70 games, 225 tackles, 48 sacks, 14 passes defended, 1 INT, 1 TD, 7 FFs
2) Clay Matthews’ career: 46 games, 161 tackles, 29.5 sacks, 20 passes defended, 4 INTs, 2 TDs, 6 FFs
3) Shaun Phillips’ career: 120 games, 423 tackles, 60 sacks, 34 passes defensed, 6 INTs, 2 TDs, 18 FFs
4) Kamerion Wimbley’s career: 95 games, 369 tackles, 42.5 sacks, 8 passes defensed, 2 INTs, 8 FFs
5) Ahmad Brooks’ career (drafted in 2006): 58 games played, 139 tackles, 20 sacks, 9 passes defensed, 1 INT, 7FFs
B) Spencer’s 2011 Season: 16 games, 66 tackles, 6 sacks, 1 pass defended, 4 FFs
1) LaMarr Woodley’s 2011 Season: 10 games, 39 tackles, 9 sacks, 2 passes defended, 1 INT.
2) Clay Matthews’ 2011 Season: 15 games, 50 tackles, 6 sacks, 9 passes defended, 3 INTs, 1 TD, 3 FFs
3) Ryan Kerrigan’s 2011 Season (Rookie): 16 games, 63 tackles, 7.5 sacks, 4 passes defended, 1 INT, 1 TD, 4 FFs
4) Kamerion Wimbley’s 2011 Season: 16 games, 63 tackles, 7 sacks, 3 passes defended, 1 INT
5) Ahmad Brooks’ 2011 Season (1st season as a starter): 16 games, 50 tackles, 7 sacks, 3 passes defensed, 1 FF
Note: I said in an earlier thread either this week or last week that Ahmad Brooks was a Spencer clone, and that I wouldn’t want him. I take that back. In 18 less games, and in substantially fewer starts than Spencer, Brooks trails Spencer in sacks by 1.5, passes defensed by 1, and FFs by 3.
Tag Team name for Sean Lee and Bruce Carter is RUSH HOUR
Are you insinuating that my numbers are incorrect?
Because I used PFF.com and NFL.com. As far as I can tell, those are pretty respected sources for these types of stats. The original post used incorrect numbers and rankings, and I corrected them. Is that not a fair shake?
by Baked Potato Soup on Feb 23, 2012 3:02 AM CST up reply actions
seems fair to me used 2 seperate sites yup thats fair
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Feb 23, 2012 7:47 AM CST up reply actions
Neither site had all of the stats.
If you disagree, then please, by all means, show me which of my numbers are incorrect. Otherwise, you bring nothing to the conversation.
For the record, the post that I responded to originally used one site, and most of the numbers were incorrect. Is that better?
by Baked Potato Soup on Feb 23, 2012 10:24 AM CST up reply actions
I was saying that you using 2 sites was giving it a fair shake
I was agreeing with ya thats all
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Feb 23, 2012 10:32 AM CST up reply actions
Sorry.
I get a little defensive when my Starbucks buzz wears off.
OMG, I hope I’m not turning into Peter King.
Sincerely though, I apologize.
by Baked Potato Soup on Feb 23, 2012 10:48 AM CST up reply actions
It's cool understand the buzz wear off very well haha
No worries.
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Feb 23, 2012 11:00 AM CST up reply actions
You'll become Peter King
If you start using “maybe, sort of, and probably” every other word.
Tag Team name for Sean Lee and Bruce Carter is RUSH HOUR
by Rohpuri on Feb 23, 2012 11:35 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Um you're wrong about one thing
DeMarcus Ware plays 34 ROLB/WOLB while Spencer plays 34 LOLB/SOLB. See for yourself:
http://www.ourlads.com/nfldepthcharts/depthchart/DAL
Therefore, you have to compare Spencer to other 34 LOLB/WOLBs as I did below.
Tag Team name for Sean Lee and Bruce Carter is RUSH HOUR
I mean you have to compare Spencer to other 34 LOLB/SOLB
Tag Team name for Sean Lee and Bruce Carter is RUSH HOUR
by Rohpuri on Feb 23, 2012 2:15 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Why do I have to subtract anything?
The post I responded to made no such distinction and then inflated his numbers or his rankings. If you dispute my numbers, I invite you to show that they are wrong.
by Baked Potato Soup on Feb 23, 2012 3:01 AM CST up reply actions
Your right he is a great run stuffer but that's why we kept Spears over Canty so not sure why we need both our run stuffers right next to each other on the line.
I couldn’t care less about QB hurries because on the plays he does “hurry” they end up completing it for a first down 90% of the time anyways. With our terrible secondary we need more then hurries from our Pass Rushers they gotta actually get the sack. Butler does this the biggest weakness he has is run stopping and I can see that getting better with increased starting time. As most will say Butler is usually brought in to rush the passer so when he does have to cover the run he’s a little off due to lack of time doing it. This is however my opinion and thats all I have, nothing but my eyes to back this up. I just can’t see keeping Spencer on at that price.
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Feb 23, 2012 7:13 AM CST up reply actions
We call him almost anthony for a reason
Because he almost gets sacks. Well outside of horsehoes and hand grenades, close means nothing.
He goes against Right tackles not left tackles. Ware forces doubles and chips all the time; he virtually never gets any of that.
And still the best he can do in a 16 game season is 6 sacks.
And last season he got only 3 sacks in his last 13 games.
All this in his contract year. So you saw him at his absolute best last year.
And it ain’t worth $8.8 million
by burmafrd1944 on Feb 23, 2012 7:13 AM CST up reply actions
+100
All this in his contract year. So you saw him at his absolute best last year.
And it ain’t worth $8.8 million
Well said burmafrd!
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Feb 23, 2012 7:50 AM CST up reply actions
Great work gogokroz
These numbers need to be taken into account. I think Spencer will get a long term deal that will be fair and I hope he does.
Who do you want the Cowboys to take with number one?
Is Corner or O-Line a bigger priority?
I am curious to see what Butler can do in a larger role. I’d like to have Butler and Ware in every time the Cowboys face defending a passing situation.
What the heck?
Thanks.
I looked at NFL.com and Spencers #’s are mediocre.
66 total tackles
51 Solo
4 Forced fumble (tied for 2nd with about 4 others, 1st was Suggs w/7)
6 sacks (ranked 18th)
His sacks I think were reasonable, 6 is not bad compared to other LOLB’s
He looked good in Forced Fumbles.
I still think the Cowboys should probably keep him. But there is no way I would offer this dude a multi-year contract that is not at bargain basement prices.
Plenty of other LOLB’s that could outperform him.
I am now flip flopped. I thought he was under-rated, now I believe he is probably accurately rated.
I was looking for this post
Mind you, I love Butler, and I sincerely hope he turns out to be a beastly starter. However, it isn’t fair to compare the sack numbers of the two players considering that in obvious pass-rushing situations Spencer gets pulled for Butler.
by DerUbermensch on Feb 23, 2012 6:16 PM CST up reply actions
LOLB by committee
Butler, a day 2 rookie (Shea McClellin?) and a JAG FA (Quentin Groves?)—mix and match and lets the best guy play more as 2012 plays out. Probably more production for half the cost. Risky? Yes. But this team has so many holes risks have to be taken somewhere. Put the $s saved towards DB or OL.
That said, bet they tag him them agree to 4 yrs-$24 mil or so. Stephen Jones was so complimentary today—sounded more like Spencer’s agent than they guy signing the checks.
Stephen and jj have no faith in Victor Butler or any other olb on this team besides Ware
by lostar2009 on Feb 22, 2012 9:26 PM CST via mobile reply actions
I hope they have some faith in Albright
I think a mix between Albright and Butler would be sufficeint.
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Feb 23, 2012 7:52 AM CST up reply actions
if not Spencer then...
What about a rotation of Lissemore and Hatcher at LDE, Jared Crick (2nd round pick) and Spears at RDE and Butler and Jonathan Massaquoi (3rd round pick) at SOLB?
massoquai
I do like massoquai if hes available in the third round when we pick. Or we could look at a guy in free agency like manny lawson
by fearthestar94 on Feb 22, 2012 9:44 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
I'm going to laugh
When Victor Butler hits free agency next year and becomes a solid starter for a team in the NFL. How stupid are we going to feel having had this guy sit on the bench for 4 years and never using his talents?
by Blue Eyed Devil on Feb 22, 2012 9:35 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
sounds like something we would do
gonna pull a Kevin Burnett and be a solid starter for other teams despite us thinking he was “too small” to play
by somebodyquiet on Feb 22, 2012 9:57 PM CST up reply actions
I'd sooner shed a lone tear before laughing
even outta spite it just hurts too much cuz I really like what Butler does for this team. He is RKG all the way!
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Feb 23, 2012 7:54 AM CST up reply actions
Or he could be put in the starting line up this year and be
Alan Ball at FS
Time will tell
He who laughs last, thinks slowest
The Weather is here, I wish you were beautiful"
Indecision, may or may not be my problem
There ya go
Trying to make it reasonable ugh! haha ;-)
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Feb 23, 2012 9:16 AM CST up reply actions
"The Mad Beaver"
That’s what what we used to call Victor up here when he played at OSU. His motor is nonstop and his athleticism is twice what Spencer brings to the table we’re blessed to have this guy on the bench wait till he really gets his shot. I just hope he gets it.
by P.N.Westernboysfan on Feb 22, 2012 9:51 PM CST via iPhone app reply actions
Butler is quicker than Spencer and gets better results on stunts.
Dallas is using Butler like Lissemore. Not enough. Dallas is notoriously slow for letting better players play. Spencer makes more money than Butler. That is the main reason he plays more. Same with Lissemore. Jerry wants the higher pick to play. It ain’t hard. Sadly.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
ha
thats a ridiculou statement. if that were true, Gurode would still be here. It could be ,that Butler wasnt better than Spencer last year, AND maybe, juuuust maybe, Ryan, and Garrett,and Baker ,and Eberflus ,saw that all play out in training camp.
Im taking nothing away from Butler, who I like. he brings alot to the table , but I will trust in the coaching staff .
Gurode saw more than 1 contract in Dallas. Spencer may not. Gurode was a better player than Spencer.
I don’t think Butler is a great player. Neither is Spencer. Fact is lolb has been a weak spot ever since the switch to the 3-4. Most know my opinion and feelings about the 3-4 in Dallas. Not gonna re hash it.
My point about Butler is , if the Cowboys didn;t think Spencer was good enough to sing a second contract then maybe Butler should have recieved more playing time.
Jerry is the end all in Dallas.
by football mensa on Feb 22, 2012 10:24 PM CST up reply actions
I like Butler but
He is no where as good as Spencer. Everyone wants to look at sacks only and not his responsibilty and how he handles that. I love the Cowboys but work scouting for another NFL Team. They will take him in a heart beat, and as as a scout I will tell them to take him with no questions asked.
Be carefull what you wish for.
You have to play this game like somebody just hit your mother with a two-by-four. Dan Birdwell. Oakland Raiders
How do you want to be rememberd. Go out there and play every play like it is your last play. Be remembered as the person you want to be for the rest of your life. Spike Dykes, Midland Lee and Texas Tech Coach.
true
thank you birddog. I cant understand how Spencer is the scapegoat here?? I even spoken to people who blame Tnews decline on Spencer, saying he could have gotten to the QB on some of those throws….unbelievable…smdh
TNew is a problem too
but that doesn’t mean you don’t want to upgrade from Spencer
by somebodyquiet on Feb 23, 2012 1:01 AM CST up reply actions
8.8million?
The only thing Spencer has on Butler is size. If it comes down to starting Victor or paying Anthony the tag at that price? Let me know where #93’s at and I’ll pack his bags for him
by P.N.Westernboysfan on Feb 22, 2012 10:09 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Does not matter,
I tell Spence to leave Dallas and go somewhere else. If they tag him, hold out and do not come back. The fans do not want him, why stay here. There are many more communties that will welcome him and his family with open arms. It is a no loose choice for him.
You have to play this game like somebody just hit your mother with a two-by-four. Dan Birdwell. Oakland Raiders
How do you want to be rememberd. Go out there and play every play like it is your last play. Be remembered as the person you want to be for the rest of your life. Spike Dykes, Midland Lee and Texas Tech Coach.
agreed
That works from both angles on and off the field. I’m taking nothing else onto account but play on the field. I want the quarterback of the team we’re playin on his back as much as possible. If that means Spencer finds a niche for him and his family somewhere else next year? So be it. It’s been fun. We’ll be ok without him
by P.N.Westernboysfan on Feb 22, 2012 10:30 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Be carefull what you wish for
This is one that will come back and bite the Boys in every game.
You have to play this game like somebody just hit your mother with a two-by-four. Dan Birdwell. Oakland Raiders
How do you want to be rememberd. Go out there and play every play like it is your last play. Be remembered as the person you want to be for the rest of your life. Spike Dykes, Midland Lee and Texas Tech Coach.
Do you really think that his pass rushing ability is good enough for a 3-4 OLB?
by Gen_cornrow_wallace on Feb 22, 2012 11:53 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Opposite ware yes.
He has done his job exactly the way he was asked to do it. For that pay the man. If I’m Garrett I’m not trying to win best liked coach I’m trying to win games sign him and fix your problem don’t make a problem to fix one. Step forward not back don’t give up your only strength on defense cause your so weak in another area and need help there. Cause now all you did was have two weaknesses one just not as bad as the other. I’m sorry I’m not OK with 80 less passing yards a game cause we got a good CB and a pass rusher but lossing it all over again in the run game. Fix your problem that are burning a hole in your chances to win. When its fixed move on to the next problem.
by Sado44 on Feb 23, 2012 12:45 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
But it's not fair to say "he's ok opposite Ware"
what happens if Ware goes down? you’re expecting your other side to be somewhat competent and keep you in games
by somebodyquiet on Feb 23, 2012 1:02 AM CST up reply actions
Forget the "opposite Ware"
Forget who plays on the other side.
Just look at his play on the field and forget who the other OLB is. I’m asking about Spencer’s pass rush ability and that’s it.
And IMO I don’t think that its good enough for an OLB in the 3-4. And if you wanna bring up the “opposite Ware” issue then it really hurts your argument for Spencer not helps it.
Spencer gets more one-on-one match-ups & sometimes goes against a TE. The guy still can’t get the job done.
by Gen_cornrow_wallace on Feb 23, 2012 8:35 AM CST up reply actions
I agree the Ware arguement hurts his cause.
Cuz whereever he goes he won’t have Ware to help him anymore.
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Feb 23, 2012 8:38 AM CST up reply actions
The whole
design of the defensive scheme is to get Ware in one on one situations to rush the passer. Spencer has more jobs than Ware. He has to deal with the TE, the running back in the flat, and then rush the passer. As far as one on one match ups Spencer has the TE AND the tackle to deal with. Ware doesn’t and rightfully so. Spencer’s job is much harder than Ware’s.
You must forget that Ware is also a beast in run and pass coverage.
You say Spencer has more jobs but he doesn’t maybe more frequently but Ware does all those jobs exceptionally well without letting one hurt the other. Ware gets chipped by TEs and RBs all the time and everybody’s best tackle is their LT not the RT.
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Feb 23, 2012 9:08 AM CST up reply actions
"As far as one on one match ups Spencer has the TE AND the tackle to deal with."
Not always. The RT will sometimes match-up against the DE on that side allowing Spencer to go up against the TE.
And some of the plays called are for Spencer to just get up the field.
And forget the base downs for a minute. He doesn’t have those responsibilities when we go to the nickel. He puts his hand in the dirt or stands up and just needs to rush the passer. And even when his assignment is simplified, he’s still not an effective pass rusher.
by Gen_cornrow_wallace on Feb 23, 2012 9:27 AM CST up reply actions
OK good point here.
Ware also in nickel has his hand on the ground. How many 3rd down sacks did ware have. There is an underlined reason for that too. Secondary didn’t allow our guys to get home. Ware didn’t get home on 3rd very often Spencer did have 2 3rd down sacks. Ware maybe had the same.
by Sado44 on Feb 23, 2012 2:54 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
No the ware comment doesn't.
This design was built around having the best pass rusher in the league and possibly to ever play the game. If ware wasn’t on the team Spencer.would be asked.to.rush more. As it stands now his roll is run screen first then rush. Its basic football knowledge you build around your talent you play to your strength.
by Sado44 on Feb 23, 2012 2:51 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
You do
realize he will leave because of socail media and the average fan’s lack of expertise about the game right?
That's absurd.
He will go where he gets the most money, plain and simple.
by Baked Potato Soup on Feb 23, 2012 3:08 AM CST up reply actions
Actually,
it’s not absurd. There have been reports of several instances of “Spencer bashing” by fans when Spencer is out and about town. No one wants to put with crap regardless of the money.
Is that what he told you?
I guess we’ll find out if he hits the market. I am more than willing to place a wager that he either stays here for a discount or goes to the highest monetary offer. If he does either of those, you put in your sig that I was right and you were wrong for 3 months.
If he gets offered equal or greater money by Dallas and goes elsewhere, then I will put that you were right in my sig.
by Baked Potato Soup on Feb 23, 2012 10:29 AM CST up reply actions
do you think Alex Albright has a good career ahead of him?
check out my bands nanoSMASH and Day vs Night
by AustonianAggie on Feb 23, 2012 12:50 AM CST up reply actions
You're right.
And the sad thing is the team will lose a good team player and for what? People seem to forget players like Carl Banks who was drafted #3 in the draft and never averaged over 5 sacks a year playing opposite LT. But he does have 2 SB rings.
You are employed by an NFL team?
I have no reason to doubt what you say based on most of your posts, but if you truly believe that his salary is meaningless, I don’t think you are being realistic about today’s NFL. Players have to be evaluated in line with their compensation, not just on whether they can help the team.
Dallas has about 20 million in cap room, including needing to sign draft picks. I think everyone would be happy to have Spencer back at a reasonable contract, but most think that 8.8 million is WAY too much for what he brings to the table. You truly advocate spending almost half of our available cap on keeping him here one more year?
As someone who is involved in the NFL, can you cite a few players that took less money to leave one team because they thought the fans would be nicer for another team? I’ve never heard of a free agent leaving their hometown team for less money.
by Baked Potato Soup on Feb 23, 2012 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
God help us all if football players care about what we write on this blog.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
by Creasy729 on Feb 23, 2012 2:40 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
This is exactly what worries me Birddog.IMHO,losing Spencer is a huge mistake.
Not a very popular opinion on this site,but it is just the way I see it. I respect others opinions,as the Good Book and the golden rule tell me to,but I wonder what they see that I don’t. The way the run game gets thrown to the side like it has no bearing on the games what-so-ever.Maybe it’s just me. In the words of “Bailey” from the movie “Mystery ,Alaska”,“forgive me Your Honor I’m fat”.
Tony Romo,Sean Lee,and DeMarcus Ware-Leaders by example!!!
by NVCowboy4Life on Feb 23, 2012 3:15 AM CST up reply actions
The name of the game in the NFL is the passing game
Disagree?
So that means sacking the QB is now more important then playing the run.
So Spencer has to go.
Give Butler his shot.
Is it as big a risk as it turned out starting Costa was? I doubt it.
And at least starting Butler will not get Romo killed.
by burmafrd1944 on Feb 23, 2012 7:17 AM CST up reply actions
I would rather liken starting butler at Spencers spot
to Alan Ball as your starting FS…..
but hey, just MHO
He who laughs last, thinks slowest
The Weather is here, I wish you were beautiful"
Indecision, may or may not be my problem
Okay.
What did Ken Hamlin do when he left Dallas?
by Baked Potato Soup on Feb 23, 2012 10:30 AM CST up reply actions
I wonder what the stats would be if Ware and Spencer switched sides?
I’m not comparing the two but I wonder if even Ware could get to the Qb if the Qb knew where he was at all times.
I’d like to see Butler play more and hope he can step up big if given the chance. I just want to see the Cowboys win. I don’t care how they do it.
Chia, good article with some good insight to a possible diamond in the rough. Is there any chance for an article about all OLB’s where we make a point system for every measurable (sack-2points, TFL-1point, FF-2poimts etc..). This way we can compare complete package players v complete package players? Not sure if it’s possible or already out there, but that would be interesting to see where our guys stack up against all others.
by Frankster_1 on Feb 22, 2012 10:05 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Ware lines up on the opposite side quite often, and has no problem getting to the QB
You could line up Ware at Safety and he would be able to get sacks.
"Rob [Ryan] is like Houdini with hella swag." -T. Newman
by Yoko Romo on Feb 22, 2012 10:34 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Any stats as proof?
I’m not saying your wrong, I just need the actual numbers to convince me. Where does one go to get complete stats like these? Where they lined up? Pass v rush? Etc…
by Frankster_1 on Feb 22, 2012 10:57 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
He's not making it up
I first noticed Ware lining up against the RT against the Jets. I don’t know if he earned a sack against the Jets RT. I know for a fact against the Redskins he lined up againts their RT for a few plays after Trent Williams got away with holding. Jaws and Gruden commented on how Ware will move around more in Rob Ryan’s defense. If remember correctly, at least one of his 4 sacks against Vick in the October came against their right tackle.
Go back and watch the games, you’ll see he wasn’t just working against the LT.
Tag Team name for Sean Lee and Bruce Carter is RUSH HOUR
by Rohpuri on Feb 22, 2012 11:41 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
The whole
defensive scheme is designed to get him one one one with a blocker. So if he got 1 sack out of 4 against the RT that proves exactly what?
Which would then mean that last year
Spencer was sometimes working against the better LT instead of the RT ?
He who laughs last, thinks slowest
The Weather is here, I wish you were beautiful"
Indecision, may or may not be my problem
He got a sack against the Jets RT on one of the first plays of the game.
Wayne Hunter had no idea what was going on as Ware just blew by him haha.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
That is just throwing shit at a wall
Prove it
You have to play this game like somebody just hit your mother with a two-by-four. Dan Birdwell. Oakland Raiders
How do you want to be rememberd. Go out there and play every play like it is your last play. Be remembered as the person you want to be for the rest of your life. Spike Dykes, Midland Lee and Texas Tech Coach.
Agreed BirdDog.
I see BTB pull up Stats all the time. Where can I find these kinds of stats? I’m the kind of person that likes to see the numbers to make sure any comparisons are fair. I hear the “triple teamed” thing all the time but highly doubt that happened all too often. If anything it happened cuz a lineman fell leaving the guard to go help. If Demarcus Ware says Spencer is good and needed, then I would take his word for it over the Monday morning qb’s on here.
by Frankster_1 on Feb 23, 2012 9:56 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
That may have
been the dumbest thing I have ever read on this sight.
what about his comment was the dumbest thing you've ever read on here?
Cuz maybe you weren’t on the night of the Jets loss, but people were actually saying we should cut Romo for Garrard that night. I’m just curious what was the dumb thing?He was just trying to show that Ware lines up in other places thats all not that dumb to me.
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by Cowboys_Attack on Feb 23, 2012 8:09 AM CST up reply actions
teams shift all the time to double/triple team ware and spencer isn't getting it done on the other side
by somebodyquiet on Feb 23, 2012 12:57 AM CST up reply actions
obviously some here have not watched our games very closely
Ware was moved around and he did get sacks on the opposite side.
ANYONE thinking ALMOST ANTHONY could in any way shape or form take on LTs and chips and such all the time like Ware does and get even close to the same production is BLIND DEAF AND DUMB.
by burmafrd1944 on Feb 23, 2012 7:19 AM CST up reply actions
Spencer
has to deal with the TE and the RT. They are tougher blockers than a RB.
This is something that I have an issue with
the Spencer only has to deal with an RT argument….you do realize that an RT is still an NFL player right? while true that athletically they tend to be worse than your LT, that doesn’t mean that they inherently suck….
Could it it be that because Spencer isn’t the athletic Freak that Ware and other players are that he would have more issues with an RT? of Course….but even an RT will block Ware sometimes, simply because they are pretty good themselves….
The biggest issue that I have with Spencer is his that he is actualy playing out of position in the Dallas Defense in that they are forcing him to play as a 4-3 LOLB except in 3rd down when he moves to the DE spot…..I would rather we take an actual OLB (carter comes to mind) and simply let Anthony play as the DE….while he would be “undersized” as a 3-4 DE, I imagine that he could easily increase his production given the chance…..
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Feb 23, 2012 9:23 AM CST up reply actions
Ware was moved around and he did get sacks on the opposite side.
so if ware in going against the RT at times, doesnt that mean that Spencers is going against the LT for those plays??
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Indecision, may or may not be my problem
What's the point?
I don’t think anyone understood what the question was in the first place, so this whole chain of comments is kind of silly. Does Ware sometimes go against RTs and get sacks? Yes. Does Spencer sometimes go against LTs and get sacks? I don’t know. He doesn’t get many, so I don’t know who they came against. He only had 6, so I’m thinking someone could easily go to NFL.com and see who they were against if they wanted to. A couple seemed to be from getting a scrambling QB that accidentally ran into him near the LOS, if my admittedly faulty memory is correct.
But the way I interpreted the question was what if they played each other’s position, not what if they simply walked to the other side of the line.
What you seem to be trying to imply is kind of meaningless, because Ware had more than 3 times as many sacks, wherever he was lined up. If you are trying to say that Spencer sometimes faced as good of a pass blocker as Ware, I don’t really see what the relevance is, given that he had nowhere near the success.
by Baked Potato Soup on Feb 23, 2012 10:39 AM CST up reply actions
my question was...
If you line up on the strong side where the qb can see you 90% of the time, isn’t it harder to get to the qb? If you’re coming from his blind side, the qb can’t simply step up into the pocket or scramble because he doesn’t know you’re coming. But he can do that if he’s watching you all the way. So did Spencer not beat his man or did he beat his man but the qb threw the ball or stepped up into more protection? People look at his production but fail to break it down to find the reason. If he can’t beat his man, that’s one thing. But if he beats him regularly, or is not rushing as often or the qb is getting rid of the ball quickly (due to poor coverage) then these types of things should be considered when labeling whether he is a good or average player.
by Frankster_1 on Feb 23, 2012 1:19 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Don't worry, you're not wrong about the scrambling QB thing.
That happened in NY and Arizona for sure.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
Thanks
I had some time, and I wanted to make sure I was giving him a fair shake, so I looked up his sacks:
NYJ – He is covering the flat, Ware gets triple teamed (I just say this cuz they kept saying it in the highlight) and the rest of the rushers flush Sanchez to Spencer. 2 yard loss
SF – The Niners TE makes a half-hearted effort to chip him before wandering out for a pass, except no one is picking Spencer up and he blows right past him for a nice sack. 9 yard loss
WAS – Great play by Spencer, running right around the RT to end the game with a Sack/FF. Game Over. Eat it, Redskins.
SEA – Blows right past the RG and catches Jackson as he tries to make a break for it. 2 yard loss
MIA – Spencer in coverage, Moore bootlegs and slides at about the line of scrimmage. Ruled a sack for Spencer. 0 yard loss.
ARI – Spencer in coverage on the right side, Lee flushes Kolb to him. 2 yard loss.
by Baked Potato Soup on Feb 24, 2012 9:30 AM CST up reply actions
DO NOT OVERPAY Almost Anthony
You have to squeeze value out of every dollar. Don’t want to have to see Alan Ball part 2 starting in the secondary because we had no money to spend.
Almost is a solid player. Not 9 million dollars solid.
Spencer is ok but not worth the money.
You could use Spencer money for a DE.
Victor Bulter is better than Coleman.
We don’t need to replace Spencer but we do need to get a DE that gives more rush than Coleman.
I think Bulter is ok as a LB and we can let Spencer go and use the money for Jason Jones
Victor Butler and Jason Jones would be better than Spencer and Coleman.
by Jonathan Stern on Feb 22, 2012 10:07 PM CST reply actions
I'm alittle blah about this post. Nothing serious just not my preference.
Now saying that please let me explain before I get lynched. We all know chia feelings about Spencer. Its OK we all have our opinions but I felt like a article like this should have been more about the numbers of both in comparison along with a few options the team has and then left for the community to debate. I haven’t noticed our older front page writes pushing there opinions thew the front page articles. I love your work chia don’t get me wrong you belong on the front page. Just feel like maybe your strongest opinions should be left out of the article. As for the comment section tear it up good buddy. I know mock drafts and yadda yadda articles are all opinion based but this seemed more like a topic that has gotten comments rolling lately and you felt like expressing yourself on the front page such as people.do in fanpost section. OK now I’m sorry if I offended you in anyway what so ever. Not my intentions just expressing my thoughts on our newest front page writer. Btw congratulations.
by Sado44 on Feb 22, 2012 10:24 PM CST via Android app reply actions
OK chia
Now I just reread your article and maybe I was alittle harsh cause it wasn’t near as bad as I thought after my first reading. Still alittle but maybe I was fresh of the Spencer topic in another post and wasn’t clear enough to your intent. Sorry bud but hope you do understand what I ment from opinion based articles that’s the main reason I read btb they are down to earth stat and proven people unlike most other blogs. Anyways good article well written and sorry if I took it out of context.
by Sado44 on Feb 22, 2012 10:30 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
my intent of the article was to talk about Butler and present what he brings to the table
I really don’t get into my opinion except for Butler’s speed and at the end I offered my take on what I would do, draft a pass rusher and pair him with Butler for a rotation type of thing
by Archie Barberio on Feb 22, 2012 10:54 PM CST up reply actions
Ths is kind of funny b/c I was just getting ready to take the opposite stance and commend him for not pushing his feelings.
Yes he dislikes spencer, but not once did he say he wants him gone. He stated our options and described a specific scenario where one player that’s already on the roster may be able to take over. I personally feel butler would have gotten more playing time if he was ready. I’m I’m the mind set that we resign Anthony for 4-4.5 mil if possible. If not we try to get someone at about that price in FA or take a 1st or 2nd roung OLB in the draft. Anthony is worth 4-4.5 mil not $8.8. He’s just average, but there’s not that many olb’s in FA this yr so he’ll probably get overpaid somewhere.
by Dynamicduo on Feb 22, 2012 10:34 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Yea after I read it again I felt like an ass.
Hasn’t been the first time I opened my mouth when I shouldn’t have. Anyways I did apologize for it hope its taken. Reminds me of the time I asked my father in law for.permission to marry his daughter. We was in a very fancy restaurant and he asked my why I wanted to marry her. I told him cause she’s rich why else would a man marry a woman. He looked at me and said I’m not rich. I stood up and said well the hell with this I’m out of here and walked out. Now seriously prolly not the best thing I’ve ever done but I got a kick out of it. Anyways chia did good in this article I agree with you
by Sado44 on Feb 22, 2012 10:48 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
who
who is this chia guy they keep referring to , :)
congrats mr.crack . if anthony leaves, who are you pulling for to replace him. Do you think Ingram is the man? Hes about the only one I would be excited to have there.
Let me ask you this, hypothetically speaking, spencer has moved on , ingram and decastro are there at 14, would you have wished we kept spencer and gotten decastro , or would you want to pull the trigger on Ingram?
thats a pickle
I would love Ingram
I guess the Cowboys would have to stay true to their board or go with the need
that is a really difficult question
if Spencer is here another year, you take DeCastro, if we are down to Butler and Albright, I am taking the pass rusher
good question!
by Archie Barberio on Feb 22, 2012 11:02 PM CST up reply actions
Arch, do not start being who you are not.
You would pick Ingram, You have said that before. That is a geat pick.
I would pick Decastro if he was there but I want to protect our QB. I also underdstand and would jump on board with Ingram if Decastro is onot there at 14.
You have to play this game like somebody just hit your mother with a two-by-four. Dan Birdwell. Oakland Raiders
How do you want to be rememberd. Go out there and play every play like it is your last play. Be remembered as the person you want to be for the rest of your life. Spike Dykes, Midland Lee and Texas Tech Coach.
lol
thanks
well I just laid out the two different scenarios, I love ingram and that would be my guy especially if we don’t have Spencer
if the Cowboys bring Spencer back I highly doubt they draft a pass rusher, so that is why I said DeCastro
by Archie Barberio on Feb 22, 2012 11:18 PM CST up reply actions
At 14, I think we have see some very good options.
I can think of 4 or 5 that may be there. I have my choice, but anyone of the others will be strong picks.
You have to play this game like somebody just hit your mother with a two-by-four. Dan Birdwell. Oakland Raiders
How do you want to be rememberd. Go out there and play every play like it is your last play. Be remembered as the person you want to be for the rest of your life. Spike Dykes, Midland Lee and Texas Tech Coach.
The replacement problem....
I wouldn’t tag Spencer, but if you let him walk you’d better be prepared to take his replacement in the first round, and that applies even if Decastro and Kirkpatrick are both on the board at 14. I personally think as the process plays out that the best replacement in terms of a potential upgrade might not be Ingram, and certainly isn’t Upshaw. Nick Perry is the guy I’d be most fired up about. If you try to fill that spot with a Bruce Irvin, Massoqui, etc. you run the very real risk of falling into the trap Sturm was talking about by creating a weakness that doesn’t exist today.
Personally, if Spencer isn’t here then I’d be happy with a center and corner in FA, (starting caliber, take your pick), perry in the 1st, guard in the 2nd, and corner in the 3rd.
In my opinion the trap being that barring the presence of Mario Williams, subtracting Spencer pollutes BPA any way you slice it. In a 3-4 the linebackers are where your money should be spent and where your big plays should come from by design. For all the talk about improving the rush by adding a 5 technique end, those guys aren’t even on the field more than half the time unless they slide inside to tackle in the nickel, and Rat will man one of those spots with the OLB manning both ends as they have with Spencer and Ware. You couldn’t convince me to spend a 1st round pick on a 3-4 end. My linebackers need to make plays.
Hopefully the rush is improved by the occasional effective A gap blitzing of Carter, the increased snaps for Lissy, and perhaps increased rush package snaps for Butler, regardless of what happens at SOLB.
by Linebacker22 on Feb 22, 2012 11:34 PM CST up reply actions
Good Question
Loss of Spencer increases need for someone besides Butler, ( not ready for prime time), Butler, to replace him. Did this just cost us DeCastro?
This seems expensive. I would like to have all of three.
plug in Butler
and take a chance.
Frankly I doubt we lose much in the switch.
by burmafrd1944 on Feb 23, 2012 7:22 AM CST up reply actions
8.8 Million Reasons Butler Doesn't Look Bad
Intended to put a ? in my post above…(not ready for prime time??)
I have high hopes for Butler, & want, & need to see more, along with other options.
How did this giant leap to Franchise Tag happen? Are they trying to run other teams away from Spencer by letting the press believe they might?
8.8 is not rational, it’s laughable imo. The rent is too damn high!
Another good Front Page peice Archie.
I have a
suggestion. A Notre Dame line backer coach has set out the responsibilities of a SOLB in the 3-4. We at least need to get on the same page as to what we are expecting out of our position players. Then we can say if the player is reaching those expectations or not. Hopefully, people will read this article in the spirit it is offered. http://onefootdown.fantake.com/2010/03/22/chalk-talk-the-nd-3-4-transition-part-iii-outside-linebackers/
And exactly
what information did you get that is pertinent to your analysis of the SOLB position?
I am tired but this is what I got out of it, angles, contain, commitment and not messing your assignments up
that article pertains to the college football game and talks a lot about getting too far up field due to the option attacks
the stuff on the run game I understand, obviously you don’t want to get too far up field because you can get burned that way and you must maintain discipline on your angles and contain
it’s relevant in some aspects in the NFL, but not all of them, this is talking a lot about the option
this is my thing
at the end of the day, the OLB needs to be a good pass rusher, Rob Ryan said it himself.
yes you need to be good against the run, but I am willing to sacrifice some run defense for a better pass rusher
by Archie Barberio on Feb 22, 2012 11:31 PM CST up reply actions
going to bed now :)
I will check back tomorrow
I love discussing this type of stuff with you jevans1729
by Archie Barberio on Feb 22, 2012 11:40 PM CST up reply actions
I'm tired
I’m tired as in I am going to bed because I am physically and mentally tired
by Archie Barberio on Feb 23, 2012 4:02 AM CST up reply actions
lol
when I said “this is my thing” I was talking about my take on the OLB situation, I wasn’t saying like THIS IS MY THING!
I can see why you took what I wrote there out of context, my bad, the wording wasn’t proper and I needed some sleep
when I said I was tired, i was referring to actually being tired, not that I meant I was tired of talking to you about anything
sorry if what I was saying came out the wrong way, I definitely wasn’t going for that
by Archie Barberio on Feb 23, 2012 4:07 AM CST up reply actions
Don't worry
I didn’t take it the wrong way. I was just funnin’ you a little. I even had a little smiley face at the end.
The point I
was hoping you would get from the article is that Spencer has to do several things that dictate what his job is every single play. First diagnose run or pass. Then he has to deal with the TE. Does he pass cover or not? Then he has to worry about the RB in the flat. Then after all of that, depending on what pass coverage is called, he can rush the passer. Ware doesn’t have to do all that. He checks the C gap and makes sure it’s not a run and it’s off to the races to the QB.
Spencer gets the dirty work in the Cowboys scheme. Guys like Woodley do some of the same things as Spencer but the Steelers run a zone blitz scheme which changes some of the coverage responsibilities.
I understand he has responsibilities
it’s just that in 5 years I have watched Spencer and I don’t think he is a great player
I believe he is an average player
the main problem I have with Spencer is consistency and I hate seeing players disappear for a long time
Raf has written many articles on the nuances of Spencer’s position and even he has been pushing for a change there now, which I find interesting because like yourself, he valued Spencer’s role
by Archie Barberio on Feb 23, 2012 9:08 AM CST up reply actions
I'll tell ya
one stat I can’t find on Butler is arm length. That can turn an other wise OK set of measurables in to a freak performer
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by AustonianAggie on Feb 22, 2012 11:20 PM CST reply actions
I will say I don’t want the SOLB position to stop Dallas from fixing it’s flawed interior OL and secondary.
check out my bands nanoSMASH and Day vs Night
by AustonianAggie on Feb 22, 2012 11:46 PM CST reply actions
An opinion that actually matters
“Everybody wants to automatically say, ‘Outside linebacker — how many sacks?’” Jones said. “A good football player can impact a game in a lot more ways than just how many sacks he has. Pressure is important in our league and we pay for pressure. But you also pay for good football players. And I think Anthony fits in that mold. I think up until this point evidence speaks for itself. He’s never been a big sack guy. But he is a good football player.”
Steven Jones, VP- Dallas Cowboys, to the Dallas Morning News, February 22, 2012
An opinion that has gotten us one playoff win in the last 15 years! Yipeee!
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
Stephen Jones hasn't been this involved the last 15 years
I respect his opinion. It’s really easy to bring out the one playoff win in 15 years thing. You can say that about anything the F.O. says or done.
There's always money in the banana stand.
What has he done though to earn your respect?
I appreciate what he brings to the table from a cap space perspective, but he is no more of a personnel evaluator than you or me. As such, if I read his opinion and don’t agree, I give no special deference to his opinion.
And in this case, he thinks that Anthony Spencer is a good player. Not an average one, but a good one. I don’t agree at all.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
Interesting convo I found on twitter
by somebodyquiet on Feb 23, 2012 1:10 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
greatest quote
‘course the Dophins kept Cam Wake on the bench for ages with similar logic’
For God and country - Geronimo
by Fan in Thick and Thin on Feb 23, 2012 1:58 PM CST up reply actions
agreed
Butler is only 8 lbs lighter than spencer, I think he could play the run just as well. If anything, I think he deserves a look and we can sign a cheap LB to help out.
by somebodyquiet on Feb 23, 2012 2:11 PM CST up reply actions
What happened to the Spencer of late '09?
Why has he not been able to duplicate that as a rusher?
He’s done it before, so he has it in him.
Is it physical? Desire? Scheme?
When he was at his best off the edge, this defense was very impressive. I’m not sure how so much of that got away all at once.
that has been a question everyone has asked for 2 years and more
He was on fire for about the last 7 games. Burger King even had him as an ALL PRO.
We have not seen him again. I am thinking we were invaded by the Body Snatchers and they got that Spencer and left us with the lesser clone.
by burmafrd1944 on Feb 23, 2012 7:24 AM CST up reply actions
Because it was like 4 games
Spencer had about 4 really good games in a row. It happens, things just align for players for short periods of times. Julius Jones had about 4 really good games in a row where he was a 100 yard rusher every week.
Instead of looking at a small handful of games in a 55-game career as an oddity, Cowboys fans treat the 4 games as the truth and the other 51 games as the outlier.
What we’ve seen out of Anthony Spencer for the last 3 years is who he is.
by Blue Eyed Devil on Feb 23, 2012 7:37 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
"Cowboys fans treat the 4 games as the truth and the other 51 games as the outlier."
Not according to all of the “run him out of town” posts.
I wondered the same thing in my comment on signing Mario Williams. Why pay Spencer when you can pay Mario Williams and take a similar hit on the salary cap – granted over a longer number of years? The key issue would be whether the drop off with Butler would be outweighed by the signing of Williams or another blue chip free agent DE/DT. Spencer is ok, but I would take that risk. The salary cap forces you to focus on priorities and manage risk.
I'd rather the devil I know than
a guy that has shown spurts of prowess on the field. Wait which one am I talking about?
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Money
Making Spencer the second highest paid player on the team at 8.8 mil is ridiculous. He’s obviously an important part of the D, but not to that extent. Let him fly if you can’t get him at 3-4 mil. Butler seems ready to take over the position, so give him a chance.
Also, put Lissimore and Brent on the field more—if not as starters than just more snaps. Both were wickedly productive in extremely limited roles last season.
by REAP IT on Feb 23, 2012 6:24 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
I completely agree with you and this is my take too, but we are in a real bind here.
There aren’t very many FA olb’s on the market and we probably can’t get a decent one for 4 mil so IF we do let spencer go, we pretty much have to get an OLB in the first round. Even a second rounder may not do. It’s a crappy situation and I think that’s why they are considering the franchise tag. I’ve gotten the vibe they don’t want to draft OLB in the first round. Ingram is good, but in most years I don’t think he would be the best OLB available at 14th overall. I’ll be ok if that ends up being the choice but as of right now I’d much rather take decastro or Jenkins at 14th. If we are forced to take an OLB in the first we better go spend some money on a cb. I’m still a fan of getting Carr. He’s young and worth the money IMO. He wouldnt cost too much more than newton did last yr and he would be better than any rookie cb due to the transition period from college to the nfl CB’s undergo.
by Dynamicduo on Feb 23, 2012 6:42 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
At this point even if we do give the starting job to Butler...
We have to draft his replacement already. He’s in the final year of his Rookie contract.
And we got like 400snaps out of him so far in 3 years. Stupid ass front office. Wasting inexpensive talent just letting him ride the pine.
by StarloverinWNC on Feb 23, 2012 10:07 AM CST up reply actions
Give Butler his shot and use that $8.8 million else where
Most sensible thing to do.
Food for Thought
First Off, Solid article Chiarchie. If your piece can generate this much debate, hat off to you.
In reading this and everyones responses, just wanted to throw out a thought. Everyone here already knows that the Dallas Secondary has been sub-par for years. It feels as if the staff has had their thumb in the dike for quite some time.
I’ve been asking myself a few questions this past week. Do I like Spencer? Is there someone within reach that is better? Can he improve? Is he getting a fair shake? …To list a few… Two sides of the coin when I think of Spencer- His admission to “Mailing it In” in 2010 Season hasn’t left my mind, it shows weakness of character when faced with adversity. Then 2011, the Sexy Rexy sack/fumble in 1st DAL-WAS to close the game out, and the Special Teams block are stuck in my head. Highs and Lows.
The Secondary and Spencer are tied together until we get DB’s who can slow the pass down. Is he worth a franchise tag? No. Is he worth keeping? If the Joneses can work something out with him it would allow them to work on more pressing position needs, so yes. Whichever way it goes, Butler deserves more playing time. And maybe The Joneses and Co. Need to take a risk for reward in Butler.
thanks
hehehehe you know I hoped it would generate some good conversation and it looks like it did
by Archie Barberio on Feb 23, 2012 8:13 AM CST up reply actions
I like that
The Joneses and Co. Need to take a risk for reward in Butler.
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Feb 23, 2012 8:34 AM CST up reply actions
I have a really hard time
believing that, if we replaced Spencer with Butler or anyone similar to Butler, we will be looking back on the ashes of the 2012 season ruing the day we let Spencer go. Seems far-fetched.
On the other hand, I can easily envision us all shaking our heads knowingly and saying, “Yep, it wasn’t that hard to replace him after all.”
First of all Awesome screen name!
Secondly I totally agree with this
I can easily envision us all shaking our heads knowingly and saying, "Yep, it wasn’t that hard to replace him after all."
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Feb 23, 2012 8:45 AM CST up reply actions
I've been around a while.
Just don’t comment too often. Plenty others are thinking/saying what I would, & I’m not into redundancy.
Re: Spencer…is he SOOOO important a piece, such a vital cog, an indispensable, foundational element to our defense…. Wait, that person is Demarcus Ware. Let’s go with Butler and see what happens. If he’s worse than Spencer by, 2 sacks, so be it. But I’d like to see what he’s got.
well that will kill me
if we never find out who Victor Butler is and then he walks in free agency next year and goes to a team and plays good football
that would be devastating because Butler is also the best pick of the 2009 class
by Archie Barberio on Feb 23, 2012 9:10 AM CST up reply actions
yup he is the Jason Witten of backups
Complete role player and RKG. I love what he has done for this team and hope we give him more of a chance. BTW I’m not saying he’s as good at football as JW just that his mentality is the same Witten does what needs to be done for this team and has a huge heart to see his team win.
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Feb 23, 2012 9:15 AM CST up reply actions
I am on board with that sentiment
We know what have have in Spencer, We haven’t seen Butler max out. And I’d rather see Spencer blow it up somewhere else the untapped resource that is Butler. To be honest, I wouldn’t want to be with a team where fans were blaming him for things that may or may not be his fault.
would we of even drafted Bruce Carter
if we already had Kevin Burnett
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by AustonianAggie on Feb 23, 2012 10:25 AM CST up reply actions
alot of folks said the same thing about letting Hamlin go
He who laughs last, thinks slowest
The Weather is here, I wish you were beautiful"
Indecision, may or may not be my problem
But we had no one with any safety experience behind him.
We’ve got a sample on Butler. He’s done pretty well. Let him do the dang thang.
we have about the Same
if you remember Ball filled in for Hamlin for a few games the previous year, which “helped” Dallas figure that Ball could be an adequate replacement…..
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Feb 23, 2012 9:33 AM CST up reply actions
A lot of people were against the Ball experiment.
I know that I posted several times about how he didn’t demonstrate ball awareness as a pro or college player prior to being awarded the starting spot, that the Cowboys lost all of the games he started in those few games you mentioned, and that Hamlin was acknowledged as the QB and leader of the defense.
And I will again also point out, both for and against my point, that Hamlin did zero when he left here, starting 0 games for 2 teams in that season, and then retiring.
by Baked Potato Soup on Feb 23, 2012 10:46 AM CST up reply actions
Ahhhh those were the days. I could believe coaches and think with my heart haha.
Not so much anymore.
If I had a nickel for every Super Bowl the Eagles have won, I would have zero nickels.
We've got Butler AND Albright the combination of the two should more then compensate for the loss of Spenc
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Feb 23, 2012 9:34 AM CST up reply actions
And from financial stand-point
If I can get around the same productivity from Butler as I did from Spencer… The cheaper option only makes sense. Free Agency needs to get here faster, I’m tired of talking about shadows and dreams.
LOL I think we all are!
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Feb 23, 2012 10:12 AM CST up reply actions
Questions.
Is there someone better available in free agency? Can said person reasonably be expected to be obtained? Is there someone better currently on the roster? Of course, its all a moot point if he wants more than the Cowboys are willing to pay him. IMHO, he is worth keeping, at a reasonable price of course, unless you are absolutely sure you can upgrade the position without hurting your ability to upgrade more pressing areas.
Mario Williams
If the team’s considering giving Spencer the avg salary of the top-5 LBs in the NFL, I’d rather see that kind of money spent on a difference maker like Super Mario.
Otherwise, we can likely get similar production for far less $ by signing a FA like Matt Roth, Ahmad Brooks, Kam Wimbley, Andre Carter, etc.
Sign a low cost vet to compete with Butler as insurance. But let’s not allow Butler to walk w/o at least seeing what he’s capable of.
by dacolan on Feb 23, 2012 11:47 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Agree with everything you just said.
I think most people’s problem with Spencer is not simply what he brings to the table, but the prospect of spending 8.8 million dollars of the salary cap to get that production for another year.
by Baked Potato Soup on Feb 23, 2012 1:05 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Both of you hit the nail right on the head!
Recs for you both
Optimissum Prime sees nothing but the best for America's Team!!!
by Cowboys_Attack on Feb 23, 2012 1:12 PM CST up reply actions
completely agree
we’re betting on a one year try instead of finding ways to improve this team further along the road. Basically not seeing what butler can do, having less money to spend on FAs that might be able to contribute longer, etc. Short term success vs long term success.
by somebodyquiet on Feb 23, 2012 2:23 PM CST up reply actions
Thats on the assumption that Tagging him is the only option though.
“similar production for far less $ by signing a FA like Matt Roth, Ahmad Brooks, Kam Wimbley, Andre Carter, etc.”
Are teams really willing to pay that much more for Spencer than the others if the production is similar?
“But let’s not allow Butler to walk w/o at least seeing what he’s capable of.”
Isn’t this possible with Spencer on the roster?
Look, I’m not advocating keeping Spencer. I’m just asking legitimate questions. For the record, I do think Tagging him would be boneheaded beyond belief as that would go against my “without hurting your ability to upgrade more pressing areas” statement. As far as Mario Williams(8.9 Sacks/Season Avg) is concerned, do you really want to pay him money comparable to or more than DeMarcus Ware(14.2 Sacks/Season Avg)? The only reason I use sacks is because that is the knock on Spencer. The man has missed nearly a full season over the past two years as well. Just not sold on Mario Williams for that much money, especially when we could use a NT, a S, CBs, and some interior OL.
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