Relative Trade Values of the current roster

by Cwon1 on Feb 3, 2012 6:57 PM CST

I'm not saying one player should go or the other BUT I think it would be informative to place a value next to every player on the current roster who might have a trade value. We can think of it in terms of the draft value chart;

http://www.draftcountdown.com/features/Value-Chart.php

We can start with the defense;

I would be pretty much ready to auction the entire existing defense including Ware and Ratliff for the right amount of draft value in return;

Ware = 1200 points, Ratliff = 600 points, Jenkins = 450 points, Hatcher = 150 points, Carter 125 points, Spears = 100 points, Sensabaugh = 50 points, Scandrick = 50 points, Butler 25 points

It's the impact of the salary, cap value and years left under contract that are a big factor. Many wouldn't want or could afford Ware and Jenkins would require an extension for a team to give up a second round pick. I'm sure the values could be highly debated.

People have to get realistic about the defense and the top players, they (key core players) are likely never to see a peak defense again and trading your best for more numbers of players is one way to go. For many reasons aside from playing value Ware is of course the hardest trade presented, the Ring of Honor, the message of trading your best generational player etc. It's still healthy to discuss it and end this daydream that a few draft picks or FA signings could cure the Cowboys defensive problems. Because of bloated or near-term expiring contracts a total starting value over 2000 might not be possible in any combination. Then you have to consider cap savings over forward years of dumping the bigger contracts.

Dallas Cowboys roster

Poll

Should the Cowboys "gut" their defense by trading as much value away as possible and start over? Yes? No?

Yes?

30 votes

No?

133 votes

163 votes | Poll has closed

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Comments

I've thought about...

…making a case for trading Rat (like New England did with Seymour), but I can’t think of a team who would give a first for him. I might take a second and a mid round pick, but who would do that?

It boiled down to me valuing Rat more than any other team likely would. So I scrapped the idea.

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by egriffey on Feb 3, 2012 7:24 PM CST reply actions

The Rat contract was a horrible one. Jerry and his thankyou contracts are bad business.

Jerry is the end all in Dallas.

by football mensa on Feb 3, 2012 8:54 PM CST reply actions

You know.....

I keep asking the would-be gurus, who come up with the most obscure stats, for a listing of “dead money” by team over recent years. They never produce a list.

My gut tells me the Cowboys are high on such a list. Perennially High.

I think the bonus amortization can be obfuscated for a time going forward but you can read in what is obvious by reviewing past contracts, player performance etc.

It’s expected the site would be dominated by Homers but it goes too far here.

by Cwon1 on Feb 6, 2012 6:00 PM CST up reply actions

nice idea

but ultimately fail….

Ware=12th pick? haha

Ratliff= 31st pick?

Seriously?

even assuming that Ware was on the trading block, he would be worth Multiple First rounders+….

Ratliff is an All pro NT….definitely worth more than a single first rounder(and a low one at that…..

and why are you even doing this? Both Ware and Ratliff should have 3-4 more years of playing at a high level, and why are you following the Patriots model any way? since trading their best defensive player what have they done? nothing really…sure they have gotten to the playoffs, but that is mostly do to the fact that they have a real good Offense, plus they play in a fairly weak division….

I would rather hold on to Ware and Ratliff Supplement them with decent players, and Volia! Superbowl contender….

Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT

Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST

by I am Ironman!!! on Feb 3, 2012 9:07 PM CST reply actions

Clueless Ironman

We’re talking big inflated contracts for over age 30 players. The Ware and Ratliff trades are huge baggage to the cap for anyone who wants them.

Sure Ware might be worth both of the Pats first round picks where they stand. The idea a top ten pick would be given up for Ware is a bit of fantasy. You’re also dreaming with the needs on the oline for example the defense can "saved’ next season. At best there are 6-7 starters and the payroll is top-heavy which will prevent FA’s from coming in.

by Cwon1 on Feb 4, 2012 8:29 PM CST up reply actions

inflated Contracts?

Demarcus Ware-

10/26/2009: Signed a seven-year, $79 million contract. The deal contains $40 million guaranteed, including a $20 million signing bonus and all of Ware’s 2009-2011 base salaries. 2011: $6.7 million, 2012: $4.5 million (+ $500,000 workout bonus), 2013: $5.5 million (+ $500,000 workout bonus), 2014: $12.25 million, 2015: $13.75 million, 2016: Free Agent

Jay Ratliff-

Signed a seven-year, $48.625 million contract. The deal contains $18 million guaranteed.

what is inflated about these? both are in line with other top contracts for their position and neither are exactly “high priced”(hell Ware barely breaks 10 million for his cap hit before 2014, and Ratliff’s contract contains only 18 million….

here is Peppers contract:

Signed a six-year, $84 million contract. The deal contains $42 million guaranteed, including a $6.5 million signing bonus and a first-year roster bonus of $12.5 million. Another $7.5 million is available through incentives based on sacks, Pro Bowl berths, and Defensive Player of the Year awards. Peppers can earn annual $100,000 workout bonuses in years one through five. 2011: $900,000 (+ $10.5 million “signing” bonus), 2012: $8.9 million, 2013: $12.9 million, 2014: $13.9 million, 2015: $16.5 million, 2016: Free Agent

Here is Haloti Ngata’s :

9/20/2011: Signed a five-year, $61 million contract. The deal contains $37.1 million guaranteed, including a $25 million signing bonus. 2012: $2.9 million, 2013: $4 million, 2014: $8.5 million, 2015: $8.5 million, 2016: Free Agent

Yes Newman’s contract is really bad….however other than that most of the contracts that Dallas has aren’t really that horrible. I would suggest that before you start making an effort to actually research your posts BEFORE you put them out there….you might be surprised at what you find…..

by I am Ironman!!! on Feb 5, 2012 12:15 AM CST up reply actions

Ironboy.....

Most people here agree with you. Most wanted to keep the rotting online of 08-09’ as well intact on the fantasy of “we are few players away”.

So how many 2012 draft points are Ratliff and Ware in your opinion?

Also, I think Ratliff is inflated. Romo, Witten, Ware are not or borderline at worst. It’s really about the pain that is required in reversing a system that leads to F.Adams, Newman, Columbo, Gurode, Sensabaugh or Scandrick more recently. Ratliff. Past peak or inflated value across the board.

What would the Pats have done to have Ware out on the field yesterday?

It isn’t personal, it’s business. The Cowboys are top heavy, under the minimum of starting players on defense. Trading Ware and Ratliff would benefit them as well, they could go you real contenders for example.

Ware is the New Lexus in the garage of the foreclosed house. He’s a good player but the team is way short with little room or picks to cover the gap.

I’m more critical of the fan base here for not realizing this than the players in question. It’s attitudes like yours that subsidize the poor management that created this situation. The Cowboys will be near 50% wins losses forever with this top heavy culture.

by Cwon1 on Feb 6, 2012 8:32 AM CST up reply actions

Sorry....I can understand your disdain for Jerry's contracts,

but in some instances they are justified. Ratliff is a solid player and has about 3-4 more years in him. His contract extension was front loaded and even if he doesn’t complete the years, when he is gone it won’t be hanging around the nteams neck like a noose. Ware is going to retire a Cowboy. Whatever he gets in a contract he’s a hall of fame first ballot player. You don’t trade them away. You trade away a player like Felix Jones if you can find a taker. Maybe a Marcus Spears. But the players that you build your team around, that your fanbase identifies with should be sacred.

How do you know that these players will never know a dominant defense? In one year under Rob Ryan with no new pieces to play with, Rob improved the defense in every category across the board.

To me it sounds like you are giving up. You are willing to just throw away some of the prime years that these players have left simply to save a couple of bucks when the salary cap is due to expand and we have even more money to work with.

Good Luck to the 53. Stand with Honor, Play With Pride. Bring It Home

by TruBluToTheCore on Feb 4, 2012 3:51 AM CST reply actions

That isn't my core point.....

“giving up”. I just think the team hole the Cowboys are in was a distinct decision to load players and budgets at the top. This squeezed out new talent systematically over many years. I would rather have a younger team with more balanced payrolls playing for contracts rather than a team of established contracts just holding on which often characterizes the Cowboys.

This isn’t a hungry team by a long shot.

I thought Ryan was terrible by the way. Worse, the total management situation of keeping all the dead wood (players and coaches) the past year was terrible also. Ryan showed no understanding of the poor football IQ of his squad, hence all the “confusion” in the secondary throughout the year. Ryan may have a complaint that he wasn’t allowed to clean house by higher ups, other than that excuse he should be fired.

by Cwon1 on Feb 6, 2012 1:58 PM CST up reply actions

Where is Lee?

by Alpha on Feb 4, 2012 10:16 AM CST reply actions

Lee would be 1000 point +player due to his youth.

to be consistent I should have added him. Carter could be kept as well but it’s somewhat unknown how he will turn out. Certainly he was over drafted last year.

by Cwon1 on Feb 4, 2012 8:33 PM CST up reply actions

I dont understand this..

This seems a little contradictory to me.

Carter could be kept as well but it’s somewhat unknown how he will turn out. Certainly he was over drafted last year.

If its unknown how a player turns out, then how can this be an over draft? Some people said the same exact thing about S. Lee the year before.. Now in your book Lee is worth 1000+ points? Now he has a year under his belt you have him worth so much.. Why is Carter any different? Especially how was he “over drafted?”

by AmericasTeamm on Feb 6, 2012 3:54 PM CST up reply actions

block quote fail!!!

by AmericasTeamm on Feb 6, 2012 3:55 PM CST up reply actions

I'm not emotional about Carter......

one way or the other. The fact remains he produced little and likely has little trade value in realtion to where he was selected. My focus isn’t really on restricted guys unless the offer has a premium.

Not likely looking at this roster.

by Cwon1 on Feb 6, 2012 5:12 PM CST up reply actions

One guy I'd like to trade....

is Felix Jones he can’t stay healthy.I don’t think we could get much for him but we could pick up a better third down back than what he was last year.

by TCB Orange Dino on Feb 4, 2012 6:46 PM CST reply actions

From my understanding, in the event of a trade, the otehr team takes on the player's existing contract unless the player agees to changes.

So, if these players are signed to inflated contracts, why would other team not only be willing to pick up these contracts but also give up draft picks in the process? Wouldn’t a player signed to an inflated contract have a diminished trade value?

by Grimlock83 on Feb 6, 2012 2:21 PM CST reply actions

Yes, that is a sad reality......

that Ironman can’t seem to face. Regardless, there is still value in downsizing contracts if you are in fact “inflated” which the Cowboys clearly are. Somebody might pay the “premium” if the player could make the difference. For example NE should want Ware who might have made the difference in yesterday’s game. This might be the exact opposite of what they are inclined to do.

Greenbay could have used either Ratliff or Ware as well.

Trades aren’t that common for this reason. On the other hand, if the bonus represents a discount to the aquiring team and the player fits and can be counted on it is possible. Trouble is the selling team is stuck with “dead money” as well, “amortizing bonus money” aside from the salary terms. Then again, the Cowboys seem to love dead money, they are leaders in that stat. Draft picks on the other hand are cap friendly things to have.

by Cwon1 on Feb 6, 2012 3:10 PM CST up reply actions

I can see where there is trade value in Ware and rat, but I must admit I am skeptical on the Jenkins/Carter valeus.

Jenkins is entering his last year of his rookie contract. I can’t imagine a team would give up a 2nd pick for a player that if they don’t re-sign in one year they lose. Furthermore, they could wait 1 year and sign him then and not give up a pick.

With Carter, the Cowboys drafted him in the 2nd feeling that he had 1st round talent, but because of his injury, he dropped because he wouldn’t be able to participate his first year. So, it was like spending a 2nd round draft pick in 2011 for a first round player in 2012. Furthermore, since he is in his rookie contract, the cap hit is minimal. So, why trade someone who is potentially first round talent for a third round pick when he isn’t eating much cap space?

by Grimlock83 on Feb 6, 2012 3:35 PM CST up reply actions

but the cap hit for bonuses stay with the team trading them

so the Yearly wages is all that goes with

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by BigBad Joe on Feb 7, 2012 9:18 AM CST up reply actions

That helps explain......

why there are so few trades. Also, if you are picking up higher salary you would be even more reluctant to trade cap friendly things like draft picks.

All the incentives are to keep sub-prime players on the field once the deed (high priced signing) is done. Chicago is another recent team to go down this misery road. Cowboys and Washington are also experts.

by Cwon1 on Feb 7, 2012 11:21 AM CST up reply actions

I'm skeptical also.....

I was curious what numbers people would put up in response. Cap value, years left etc. all play a part. Dead money left over is important.

You’re argument about Carter may be correct also. He might also be an immediate loss on the books, do we want to go through the bench rot ritual we all know and love as well? (Bennett, Carpenter for example).

by Cwon1 on Feb 6, 2012 5:17 PM CST reply actions