Zach Thomas to visit Dallas
by BoyzRback07 on Feb 15, 2008 5:26 PM CST
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I'm all for adding LB depth to our interior LB corp, I still think Thomas has a few good years left in him, and can come fairly cheap. He wants to win a SB, and his work ethic, and tackling ability is second to nobody on our defense. Anyhow, He's coming to town for a visit......
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If he's willing to take a serious paycut
sign him up. Our D could use more leadership and guy would love to play for a winner.
by Billito on Feb 15, 2008 5:31 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Don't Like It
by Romo9 on Feb 15, 2008 5:35 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
he has no chance
being signed here. I can't believe we are even entertaining this idea. Zach is 35, has concusion issues and is too small to be a 3-4 LB. A favor must have been called in so he can get an interview. He's better off going to a 4-3 team where he has experience.
by Cowboys81 on Feb 15, 2008 5:50 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
enough of these old players, Thomas has a history of serious head injuries,, if anything, its time for him to hang it up, not bring him in here.
by Deke on Feb 15, 2008 6:35 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Maybe he could play
With one of those giant new helmets.
by Brandon Worley on Feb 15, 2008 6:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Dolphins played a hybrid...
...under Dom Capers. If Jason Taylor put his hand on the ground, it was a 4-3, and if he pulled it up off the ground it was a 3-4.
Zach Thomas can play in our system. I'm not saying it's a good idea to sign him, but I'm fairly comfortable that he can make whatever transition necessary.
I would be more concerned about the major concussions that he suffered.
by Fargo Cowboys on Feb 15, 2008 6:43 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
This is a sure indication that they are....
...ready to part ways with Carpenter by either trading or releasing him.
by Fargo Cowboys on Feb 15, 2008 6:49 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I don't see it
He's 35, was a great player no doubt, but come on, no way we pick him up. Carp is young, can back-up OLB,ILB and play special teams. It would make no sense to do it.
by APerfectStar on Feb 15, 2008 7:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That would be stupid IMO
I'll take a young Carpenter over and old and ailing Thomas any day.
by sublimezg on Feb 15, 2008 7:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yup, real smart
replacing a young LB who knows the system has the talent and abilty to play with a old, injury prone LB, real smart! It's bad enough Burnett is injury prone, now we would have two LB's that are injury prone.
This wouldn't indicate anything. It would just be plain stupid if that's there thinking. I'm not concerned, because Zach probably wants to goto a place where he has a chance at starting and that's not going to happen here.
by Cowboys81 on Feb 16, 2008 11:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
come on now..Carp is gone..
Deal with it...
I for one am tired of people graspin' for any kind of solution to retain Carp...
There is no doubt he's not even being considered for the future here...
I'm willing to bet anyone here he will not be on the Cowboy's '08 roster.
by BoyzRback07 on Feb 15, 2008 7:29 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
He was
a first round pick only 2 years ago, he shouldn't have been, but he was. I think he will make this years teams roster, 09' would be the question mark.
by Romo9 on Feb 16, 2008 10:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
he's only been here 2 full seasons
you guys kill me...LOL
just like everybody fussing about spears and his 3.5 sacks....ya know what if spears sucks so bad...why hasn't anyone beaten him out of his starter role?
Bottom line...If carp and spears AREN'T TRADED...They most definitely will be on the 2008 roster!
by TrueBlue24 on Feb 16, 2008 11:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Answer to Spears Question....
With Fergie's injury, J-Rat had to move over to NT. Jason Hatcher battled a hamstring injury for a good part of the season. That pretty much left Stephen Bowen to compete with Spears. We were lucky to have Spears on our roster this season with the injuries on our defensive line.
At least Spears found the football field and he contributed in 2007. He's not built to rush the passer, but he was stout against the run. We get too caught up in who the starter is. I have no problem with Spears starting on our defensive line, as long as we are replacing him with a fresh Jason Hatcher or J-Rat in passing situations.
I'm all for keeping Spears and letting him play out his rookie contract. I can't say the same thing for Carpenter. It's time for us to part ways with him and get someone in that can provide us depth and contribute on special teams (yeah, Carpenter wasn't that good last year on specials teams).
by Fargo Cowboys on Feb 16, 2008 11:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Carpenter is not gone
especially if he makes it past the draft. Your forgetting Adoyele's escalating cap number. He could be the one who gets the axe. Burnett or Carpenter would be his replacement.
I'll take that bet after the draft.
by Cowboys81 on Feb 16, 2008 11:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
TOP 5 REASONS WHY THIS MAKES PERFECT SENSE...
- No long-term commitment. Thomas would more than likely get a 1-year deal with a club option for a second year.
- Not a big financial commitment. Zach is a Texas kid and he wants to play for a contender. Dallas is a perfect fit and Thomas will more than likely take less money to come here. You sign him to a base contract that's just over the veteran minimum (reasonable money considering his years of service) and lace it with incentives.
- Last time I checked, this guy was still getting it done. Zach has been too slow and too small since he came into the league in 1996 and all he's done is make tackles and play at a high level.
- Toughness. The guy was a factor on the field when we played the Fish in week #2 and all he did was record 10 tackles while playing most of the game with a concussion after a collision with MB3.
- Leadership. Leadership. Leadership. This guy would be our Junior Seau...our Rodney Harrison. There is a reason why first year safety Ken Hamlin became a leader in just his first year with the Cowboys. Newman, Ware, Canty, James, Ellis, Roy....none of them are true leaders. We have Romo and Witten on the offense, but we don't have that true leader on the defensive side of the football.
I don't really care if Thomas plays one snap for the Cowboys in '08. Just his presence will help our defense take their play to the next level. Our defense needs to learn to play with confidence and with some toughness and Zach can bring that.
Do it, Jerry.....Do it!!
by Fargo Cowboys on Feb 15, 2008 7:37 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
totally agree Fargo...
Just having him on the roster improves our overall LB corp. I'd start him over Akin right now....But once again...having his leadership and presense on the sidelines is good enough for me. Heck...eventually be our LB coach ?
There is no doubt we need more LB depth...and it will be addressed in free agency, the draft, and league roster cuts...The guy warrants an interveiw at least....geeeeez..
by BoyzRback07 on Feb 15, 2008 8:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
do it!
by HookemCowboys on Feb 15, 2008 8:17 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
No Thanks.
There are so many other higher-priority signings that require greater attention right now.
- Ham
- Hotel
- MB3
- Canty
- Two First Rounders
- Colombo maybe
- Possible FA CB
- Possible FA or trade for WR
Plus, the last thing Dallas needs to do is waste money & cap room on an aging vet with a greater potential for injury.
by kcbrett5 on Feb 15, 2008 11:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
exactly silver
what a waste of a free agent sign when this guy will be spending more time on the bench than the field.
by Cowboys81 on Feb 16, 2008 11:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We're all assuming
he'd come in as a starter. Maybe what they are looking at him for is as a high quality back-up.
That lets Thomas spare the noggin and gives the defense a smart, tough guy on the field situationally. I like it provided it's not at the expense of other signings.
by dunkman on Feb 16, 2008 7:06 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I doubt many here think he'd be a starter
We have James and Ayodele locked into contracts, and even the backup ILB's Burnett and Carp are signed to some hefty contracts. There's just no place for him on the field. Maybe on the sidelines as an asst. coach where he wouldn't risk his future, physically. Wade Phillips has gone on record saying Zach's one of his favorite players in the league.
by APerfectStar on Feb 16, 2008 10:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
Otherwise they wouldn't be talking about his contract size, his age and injury or whether he can play in the 3-4.
You don't pay starter money to a back-up. You don't worry about age and injury if the guy is in for limited snaps unless he just can't play any more. The 3-4 vs 4-3 doesn't matter much for a situational player. The Cowboys play a 3-4 base, but for other packages they play a number of other formations.
I think the Cowboys are only looking at him for a reserve role, and maybe they are just doing due diligence.
by dunkman on Feb 16, 2008 11:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree with your last paragraph
But my point is , he is not going to be a starter, and I doubt anyone thinks he would be.
I understand why people like him as a player, myself included, but not as a fit with the Cowboys.
by APerfectStar on Feb 16, 2008 2:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Health Concerns...
We need to trust that between the NFL and the Dallas Cowboys, they have determined Thomas to be fully recovered from last seasons post-concussion syndrome and migraines.
The league has instituted important changes for players suffuring concussions, including requirements of off-season neuropsychological testing.
Of course this doesn't mean that Thomas, if given a clean bill of health, is in the clear from future occurances, but he's basically at a risk similar to the rest of the players on our roster. I think we have to give him the benefit of the doubt, since he's really only had one setback, compared to someone like a Dan Morgan that continually has reoccurances.
Assuming Thomas is healthy and the price tag is reasonable, he give us needed depth and leadership. My guesstimation is that he would come at about half the cost of Carpenter ($2.5M) that can't even find the football field.
by Fargo Cowboys on Feb 16, 2008 10:48 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Just saw on the NFL network
about a Miami Herald report that the Patriots would be the perfect fit for Thomas, as Seau and Bruschi could be retiring.
''I am healthy and look forward to playing in 2008,'' Thomas said in the statement of his departure.
Zach Thomas Granted His Freedom
I guess if we could get the man for a little over a mil a year, it would be worth it.
by Romo9 on Feb 16, 2008 11:02 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Zach's Heart in in Texas...
...it's time for him to come home!!
While I'm not and advocate of this, there has been some talk on this website about Akin Ayodele being expendible given this large cap number for 2008 ($3.5M).
I think Akin has been a solid (not spectacular) performer, and he's just 28 years old. He had 84 tackles a year ago, but just 57 last year....while Bradie James totaled over 100 tackles.
I think Thomas would push Ayodele and possible challege him for the starting role. It would also allow us to part ways with Captain Caveman and possible add another 4th or 5th round pick if we rid ourselves of him through a trade.
by Fargo Cowboys on Feb 16, 2008 11:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
exactly Fargo...
It's all playing into the grand scheme of things...Trade Carp now before his trade value plummets even further....Thomas would put fire under Akin's azz for that starting spot.
A playing time incentive contract would be perfect.
We need depth at ILB....why not Z Thomas...I see him signing with NO anyhow.
by BoyzRback07 on Feb 16, 2008 2:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
he sure would
he would fit in with the other old and tired LB's they already have.
by Cowboys81 on Feb 16, 2008 11:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, those Patriot LB's really struggled this yr
by Fargo Cowboys on Feb 16, 2008 11:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
they sure did
teams could run and throw the inside route all day against their LBs. They worn down the last part of the season and into the playoffs.
by Cowboys81 on Feb 17, 2008 12:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Common characteristic of an 18-1 team....
by Fargo Cowboys on Feb 17, 2008 7:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Carpenter is not a MLB
so your arguement is invalid. He is a ILB and I would take him over Bruski right now. He is faster and better in coverage. The kid has the talent. He just needs an opportunity if not here, than somewhere else. Carpenter was a great talent at OSU along with AJ Hawk. You don't lose that overnight.
BTW, NE didn't get a 18-1 record because of their defense. A two year old can figure out it was the offense that got them the record.
by Cowboys81 on Feb 17, 2008 5:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Where are you getting MLB?
I said "roaming the middle" meaning between the line and secondary....that's generally where you find the LB's.
I find it interesting that you would take Carpenter over Bruschi. I would challenge you to write a diary on that subject. I for one would be interested in hearing your logic and reasoning.
Oh, and I asked my one year old son about the Patriots defense and he told me to tell you that they were ranked 4th overall in the league in total defense (yards) and 5th in the league in points against. Maybe their defense wasn't as dominant as their offense, but they weren't too shabby (much better than the Cowboys)...even with old men like Bruschi (34), Vrabel (32), Seau (38), and Thomas (30)....and the Patriots were very thin at LB, with very little quality depth behind their starters (reserves were Larry Izzo, Pierre Woods, and Eric Alexander).
by Fargo Cowboys on Feb 17, 2008 6:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Patriots
were not as dominant on Defense as the stats suggest. They were exposed in the run game at times, the reason for that not being exposed further is because the teams they faced were often behind, forcing them to pass. Also, they continued to give up inside passes and the aging and less athletic LBs played a part in that, they couldn't get down the field and play zone like they needed to. Their defense wasn't "much" better than the Cowboys as the Cowboys put up pretty good stats as well. The case could be made that the Cowboys were just as good as the Patriots defense-wise.
I could also see somebody's reasoning about Carpenter over Bruschi. Maybe not for this season, but for the long run, Carpenter has a much higher upside than Tedy as Tedy is on the decline (although his stats don't suggest it).
by Romo9 on Feb 17, 2008 6:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Never said they were dominant...
...but they were competant, and you don't get to 18-1 without a reasonably good defense. Just because it was a weakness on their team, doesn't mean they were weak compared to the rest of the league. Remember, you are talking about what most of the meadia was calling "the best team ever" before their offense laid an egg (14 points) in the Super Bowl.
Yeah, Carpenter is younger than Bruschi, but so are about 200 other LB's in this league. Carpenter has yet to accomplish anything outside of being a 1st round draft pick.
by Fargo Cowboys on Feb 17, 2008 7:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
They were good, but
not great by any stretch. There were many games especially late in the year when they had to out score their opponents because they couldn't stop them. There defensive liabilities were hidden by their outstanding offense. Everyone knew the patriots weak spot was their LB's and were exposed quite often through the year. The very reason they need to get younger.
Those old guys failed late in the season and into the playoffs when it mattered the most. It didn't matter what they did the prior to that.
Carpenter has yet to accomplish anything outside of being a 1st round draft pick
Easy to explain because he hasn't had the opportunity. That's why it's funny people labeling him a bust when he hasn't had the opportunity.
by Cowboys81 on Feb 17, 2008 7:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Until the CFL comes calling...
...he probably won't EARN that opportunity.
by Fargo Cowboys on Feb 17, 2008 7:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
wrong there buddy
He will get his chance. If not here than somewhere else. Just like Columbo, he was a first round pick for a reason and someone will give him a chance to prove others wrong. You obviously never watched OSU football when he and AJ Hawk were dominating.
People are going to be eating some major crow and I'll be here waiting.
by Cowboys81 on Feb 17, 2008 8:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no they won't because I fully expect Carp
to become a good OLB someday with a 4-3 team just like Hawk is with GB. But here, in a 3-4 inside, never going to happen.
by Terry on Feb 17, 2008 8:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope you are right...
Columbo was a completely different situation though, given the fact that he was trying to recover from what was at one time considered a possible career ending injury.
I live in the Midwest and follow the Big Ten more than any other conference in college football. I never was impressed enough by Carpenter to think he was a first round pick. He was a solid player on a great defensive team, but the only thing he had in common with AJ Hawk was the long hair.
by Fargo Cowboys on Feb 17, 2008 8:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
AJ Hawk and Carpenter
fed off each other. AJ Hawk is a good player, but he really isn't the impact LB people thought he would be. He hasn't shown that yet anyway so maybe he was a bit overrated coming out. Both were solid players at OSU it's only Hawk that's had the opportunity to this point.
by Cowboys81 on Feb 17, 2008 11:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No Comparison in College
Hawk was all over the field making plays in college. He was downright dominant at times. Hence the top 5 selection in the draft.
You can't compare Hawk and Carpenter just because they lined up next to each other on Saturday.
In fact I had several friends (who casually follow Big Ten Football) ask me about Bobby Carpenter, saying that they really never noticed him on the field. That certainly wasn't the case with AJ Hawk.....every college football fan in the country knew about Hawk.
by Fargo Cowboys on Feb 18, 2008 7:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
they didn't watch OSU football then
I'm a OSU fan, have been for a long time. AJ Hawk no doubt was the better of the two, but Carpenter was very active on the field and helped them be successful. AJ Hawk hasn't lived up to his #5 draft status so was he overrated coming out, maybe.
by Cowboys81 on Feb 18, 2008 9:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think Carpenter was maybe overrated?
All three starting LB's from OSU were drafted on the first day of the 2006 draft...
1 (5) AJ Hawk (Packers)
1 (18) Carpenter (Cowboys)
3 (76) Tony Schlegel (Jets)
Hawk has been good, but he hasn't lived up to being the #5 pick in the draft.
Carpenter hasn't found the field on a regular basis.
Schlegel was actually cut after just one year with the Jets and picked up by the Bengals after their LB corp was decimated by injuries.
Looks like none of the OSU LB's have lived up to their billing....it's not just Carpenter. The entire unit was overrated coming out of Buckeye Nation.
by Fargo Cowboys on Feb 18, 2008 10:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think they were all good
Hawk and Carpenter being the best. I loved Hawk at OSU and he was clearly the best, but thought he was a bit overrated coming out and not a top 5 draft pick. Like I said earlier, Hawk and Carpenter made each other better on the field. When I was doing my mocks that year I had Carpenter rated 26th in the first round. He was over drafted a little, but if you remember some of the 3-4 teams were targeting him and the rumor was NE had a strong interest.
by Cowboys81 on Feb 18, 2008 4:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
when you suck......
you don't get opportunities....
Carp sucks....even if he is "praying" traded....for whatever we can get....I don't think he'll do good no matter where he goes...Even a terrible defense like Cincy or Detroit...He will never be a top LB in this league...write it down.
I smelled BUST the moment I heard his name announced...thanks Tuna....you draft guru...oppss I mean poo poo.
by BoyzRback07 on Feb 17, 2008 10:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I normally agree with you Boyz, but
you have no basis for you argument, none whatsoever. He hasn't had a chance to play on a continual basis to make any determination. Your conclusions are based, because he hasn't played that's your only argument. When he has played, he played very well,especially in the Seattle playoff loss.
I guess Burnett was a bust of a second round pick because he hasn't cracked the starting lineup in 4 years right?
by Cowboys81 on Feb 17, 2008 11:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Burnett is a starter....
He's not listed as the starter....but I say he's is a starter because he starts in certain defensive sets (nickel, dime, etc.).
Burnett is a very valuable piece to our defense.
by Fargo Cowboys on Feb 18, 2008 7:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Burnett sees the field, Carp doesn't
unless you count him playing on ST.
Your argument about him getting no opportunities makes no sense because he does get opportunities, its called practice.
If he showed coaches in practice he was capable of playing on Sundays, he would have been given his chance in actual games, but he hasn't. Thats how Romo got on the field, showing coaches in practice he can play and taking advantage of opportunities in pre season games.
boyzrback is right about Carp, although i think he has a shot as a 4-3 OLB, but thats it.
by Terry on Feb 18, 2008 7:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Carp doesn't get the same oppurtunity
as Romo did a year ago. Romo had a spot for the taking as Bledsoe was needed to be replaced, he steped up and took it. The Cowboys backers, however, have not played inept football and their jobs are not up for grabs. Need to wait until he is given that chance and then we can see if he steps up and takes it like Romo.
by Romo9 on Feb 18, 2008 10:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ehhhh...
Romo had a spot for the taking as Bledsoe was needed to be replaced, he steped up and took it.
Not exactly....he was thrown in at halftime of a blowout and only made things worse(3 int's i believe)
by TrueBlue24 on Feb 18, 2008 3:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
On Sundays
Romo is the QB, he earned it.
by Romo9 on Feb 18, 2008 7:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
he's earned it since then
But not necessarily before.Actually parcells started some guy that was a NY yankee 3rd base prospect over him on thankgiving day just one year prior.
Don't get me wrong,I love Romo,But he didn't exactly beat out Bledsoe,or take his spot...he got thrown out there to run for his life,cause drew was a statue back there.
Since then he's proven himself.
by TrueBlue24 on Feb 18, 2008 7:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
thats not true
Parcells was considering starting Romo well before Beldsoe became a severe liability. He was just waiting for the right time.
by Terry on Feb 19, 2008 9:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ok ok enough about Seattle playoff game...
A game we lost by the way....that was "2" seasons ago...Burnett is far superior to Carp...no question...Burnett had his growing pains at first, but he improved on his skills, and progressed yearly... and I'd say at times this past season, Burnett was our best LB out there....
Carp's BEST evaluation game has to go to last years preseason game against Minnesota, He played most of the game, and was consistantly out of position, took wrong angles, was man handled, blown off his feet, he was punked on several occasions,.......to the point Wade vowed not to trust him at all playing defense...When your career, and playing time is directly linked to your performance in that game...When you were given all the plays to shine, you have to step up. He did not step up at all...He stepped back...Against scrubs that were just playing out the last preseason game...You talk about opportunities......He will get none here...I assure you that...He blew his chance to step up.
by BoyzRback07 on Feb 18, 2008 7:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
can we stop with the carpenter bashing
first off, it was a year ago, not two years ago. He was the second best player on the defense after Ware in the game. Why does Burnett get the benefit of the doubt, a guy who after his first two years on the club had done nothing but spend most of his time on the disabled list.
Carpenter has been here all of two seasons, not enough time to label a player anything but a young player learning the pro game, a prospect, a player who spent most of his time moving from one position to another, how can any player gain any confidence being jerked around as much as this players has. YOU CANT JUDGE ANY PLAYER AFTER TWO YEARS!!!! Practice is practice, not real games, and until a player, any player get a fews games under their belt, live games, he cant get the confidence a player needs to play a position, Carpenter, when in the very very limited playing time he gets, he plays NOT to make mistakes and he is reading and then reacting instead of recognizning the play before the snap, you cant get better playing that way, the only way a player gets better is with confidence that comes when you get more reps in real games, not practice or one lonely preseason game
He played most of the game, and was consistantly out of position, took wrong angles, was man handled, blown off his feet, he was punked on several occasions,.......
I could of sworn you were talking about our strong safety with that comment, yet he still has a job in the starting lineup, and he isn't getting any better.
Give the kid another year to show promise and produce, the third year is usualy the year where young players make significant strides in their game, if after this year upcoming year Bobby hasn't grasped the pro game and our 3-4 scheme, then its time to move on. Remember, Bradie James was considered a bust by many after his first two years, a fourth rounde pick but now he's our starting inside linebacker and a leader on the defense. The same can be said of Andre Gurode..
by Deke on Feb 18, 2008 9:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed Deke
Good post
by Cowboys81 on Feb 18, 2008 9:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If your whole argument is because of
Preseason game Boyz you pitch one lame arguement. I can probably name 6 or 10 starters in preseason that didn't have good games that's why it's called preseason. Carpenter has had very little opportunties and stop acting like he's been here for 4 or 5 years when this was his second full year. Carpenter is simply caught up in the numbers and inexperienced the reason he hasn't had the chance. Burnett has been here 4+ years and more experienced the reason why he is in front of him on the depth chart.
by Cowboys81 on Feb 18, 2008 9:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously...I'm not gonna continue.....cuz..
I'm not using one preseason to base anything....Once again, I knew before he was drafted that he would not be a productive LB at the NFL level, especially in a 3-4 defense..
I can't even begin to express my disappontment when I heard his name on draft day...It was by far the biggest reach in the first round. We could've traded down 10+ spots and he'd still be there.
I have seen him play several times at OSU throughout his college career, and he was more of the product of a system, with more talented players around him...Showed signs of capable, but very unspectacular play..A decent talent..size/speed ratio ok, but played weaker than his size. Undefined, was little chance of growth and upside...His potential had been maxed out. He'd project to be nothing more than an average, run of the mill, performer. Maybe solid...but never a star.
He was solely drafted for his pedigree, and obviously misdiagnosed upside. There is no way any scout would have called him a sure fire starter in the NFL.....which was my assessment of him. Special teamer and depth, serviceable...not a difference maker.
One reason for his ranking in 2005 draft was that it wasn't considered a very strong draft at all after the initial 3-4 prospects. Especially if you break them down into 3-4 OLB's....It was a very weak draft. The best 3-4 OLB's in the NFL are tweeners/ DE at the college ranks...Ware, Spencer, Philips, Merriman, etc. etc to name a few......Carp doesn't even belong on the same page as these guys...
Take this years draft...Vernon Gholston/ DE OSU is a protypical 3-4 OLB.... Carpenter was a blitzing OLB in a 4-3 defense, not a pass rushing DE. He doesn't have the strength to go against lineman, not even blocking TE's for that matter...He's not very fluid, or athletic, and lacks speed to cover an NFL running back, TE, or slot back. His size comes into question as well. He is not a very strong, or hard 260lbs. He's soft, and can actually stand to lose about 15 pounds to be effective as an weakside LB in a 4-3.
You talk about opportunities..Just cuz you draft the guy in the first round doesn't warrant you getting plays. You need to earn playing time, like Burnett did.
You earn playing time in practice.....PLAIN AND SIMPLE. If you don't take to that philosphy, you have never played football before, at any level...
There are depth charts for a reason.You duty is to work your way up the depth chart.. "Live" game action, as you state is a way of showing what you got.
You can trust, Valley Ranch practices are as close to live game action as you'll get...If you haven't been to the practices, They have highly qualified position coaches, defensive coachs, and corrdinators that overview and process data, scrutinize your entire performance, every single play, or action you do during practice, intersquad scrimmages is seen, taped, and documented, then they go to film studies, get a complete chart on your pro's/ con's, then work with you to address any problems you may have...After two full seasons...you better have a clue as where this player projects, if he fits the system, if there are alternatives, I believe the Cowboys have already sealed the deal on Carp...He is not fit for our system and will do everything possible to transition in his replacement, and shuffle him off to a 4-3 team......bank on it.
by BoyzRback07 on Feb 18, 2008 2:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Cowboys81, Burnett hasn't been here 4+ yrs
He was drafted in 2005, 2007 was his 3rd year.
by Terry on Feb 18, 2008 2:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
my bad
so he has had 3 full seasons to crack the starting lineup and failed. Burnett was already here when we signed Ayodele who he plays backup to and drafted Carpenter. Someone thought he couldn't start or none of those moves would've been made. Not good when your talking about a former second round draft pick. I see knowbody calling him a bust now do we? why not? It took 3 full seasons as a part time LB to show something so why aren't we affording Carpenter the same luxury as Burnett? People seem to forget Carpenter had no stability his first year. Parcells bounced him all around different positions of LB. He never was able to become comfortable at one position. Now, he has had one full season at ILB. It's funny to be honest how people label someone so easily when clearly they don't know what they are talking about. The kid has been here for 2 years without much playing time, but everyone thinks he is a bust. Just like the real world your going to support any argument with facts. Clearly, knowbody has the facts because there isn't enough information to support the bust label. Let me know where I can get one of those crystal balls people seem to be looking into..lol
by Cowboys81 on Feb 18, 2008 4:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
difference between Burnett and Carp
is that Burnett actually gets a lot of playing in the nickel whereas Carp only sees ST duties. Big difference and the reason nobody is calling him a bust.
by Terry on Feb 19, 2008 9:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
he might if he was playing the same position
as AJ Hawk at OLB in 4-3 defense. He'll never make it here as an 3-4 ILB.
by Terry on Feb 17, 2008 8:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thomas is too small to play ILB in 3-4
by Terry on Feb 16, 2008 2:46 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
kinda like Coakley huh
Zach - Height/Weight: 5-11/228
by Abusch on Feb 16, 2008 2:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
exactly, thats why Coakley was let go
very good 4-3 OLB, not big enough for 3-4
by Terry on Feb 16, 2008 2:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
let go ??...He left for the cash...
But Coakley was a weak side 4-3 LB....your right....big difference at the ILB position... The only difference in 3-4 and 4-3 is the hybrid DE (Ware) who would be a 4-3 DE as opposed to his OLB moniker.Same exact position Jason Taylor plays in Miami's hybrid version of 3-4...
Middle linebacker doesn't NEED to be some big, lumbering pseudo lineman type guy, Brady James isn't all that big.....You want your ILB to be a quick decision maker, shifty, sure tackling, high motor guy that can shed 2nd level blocks to fill up a gap, or pursue in traffic. wait a minute...I just decribed Zack Thomas.
by BoyzRback07 on Feb 16, 2008 3:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thomas is 5-11, James is 6-4
thats a big difference, James also outweighs Thomas by 20 lbs.
BTW, when I say let go, I meant we didn't make an attmpt to re-sign him because Parcells knew he was too small to fit into his scheme.
by Terry on Feb 16, 2008 3:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ummm...do the research guy....
Bradie James 6'2" 238lbs.
Akin Aydole 6'2" 240lbs.
Zack Thomas 5'11" 228lbs.
so much for your 5" and 20lb differentials...
try 3" and 10 lbs...and James couldn't hold a candle to Thomas's abilities as a leader.
by BoyzRback07 on Feb 16, 2008 9:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Parcells Thing....
The BIG LB is more of a Parcell's thing than necessarily a 3-4 thing.
Basically your OLB's need to have pass rushing skills and your ILB's need to be able to shed block and make tackles.
Also...does 5'11" 230lbs convert to 6'2" 240lbs in terms of leverage and height/weight differential?
by Fargo Cowboys on Feb 16, 2008 3:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
like saying B Sanders is too small to play SS
NFL Player of the Year.... SS Bob Sanders
5'8" 203lbs. ??? he's a football player....
Zack Thomas is a football player.....
I assure you he's quicker, faster, more resiliant, and better at shedding blockers than nearly every ILB in the league...as his Hall of Fame career attests. He is a better ILB than Akin, ...that's for sure. An extra 4" or 10 lbs. does not make the player...The guy has played beyond his measurables his entire career. If you asked me if we could have Z Thomas on our team for leadership, moral, and quality depth...I'd say...Get 'er done Jerrah....
by BoyzRback07 on Feb 16, 2008 3:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
there's a big difference between playing safety
and ILB in the 3-4. Thomas is just too small to be able to take on O linemen like a 3-4 ILB has to do. Thomas might be a better MLB in 4-3 than Ayodele, being protected by 2 DT, but not in a 3-4.
by Terry on Feb 16, 2008 3:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
C'mon...that was he was also told coming out of..
Texas Tech and he's proved everyone wrong for 11 years.
Besides, Miami played some 3-4 under Capers. When Jason Taylor would take his hand off the ground, it was a 3-4 Defense.
Remember that the size issues is more of a Parcells thing. Your right at a LB in a 3-4 doesn't have the two DT's protecting him up front, but Thomas played behind both defensive fronts.
by Fargo Cowboys on Feb 16, 2008 3:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think he's too small for 4-3 MLB
however its a lot tougher taking on OL when you're smaller, a lot tougher as 3-4 ILB. Hd's be worn down by end of trhe year, thats why Miami didn't run it exclusively under Capers, they didn't have the personel.
by Terry on Feb 16, 2008 3:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree,our 3-4 is really a 5-2
with ellis and ware lining up wide,with the possibility of pass coverage duties. sure our "ILB" has to be able to shed blocks and make tackles ,but so does a mlb in the classic 4-3 defense. I don't see it being a huge difference.
by TrueBlue24 on Feb 16, 2008 10:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If that were the case
then there would be no such thing as a 3-4 seeing as the 3-4 defense is meant to have the OLBs wide. If it were a 5-2, we would see Ware and Ellis always with a hand on the ground, instead they often go back in coverage or go around to the outside to rush the passer, this is where Thomas would have to go straight up against an OG or OT and there are questions if he can do that now.
by Romo9 on Feb 17, 2008 12:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
a real 3-4
DE-NT-DE
OLB-ILB-ILB-OLB
cb s s cb
what we run is a hybrid of the 3-4 not a REAL 3-4,my contention is that our players are better suited for a 4-3 defense that a "3-4" we have the interior tackles(more than we need actually) with fergie,spears,rat,canty....
our defensive ends....ellis hatcher ware spencer
with a classic 4-3 carpenter could actually make an impact at his natural position,as could spears,who is better suited to play a 4-3 DT.
I know it won't happen as long as wade is here,but our talent is better suited to a 4-3 rather than this silly hybrid 3-4 that has no chance of dominating any opponent.
Oh well,maybe jGarrett will coach to our talents rather than converting our talent to the wrong scheme!
by TrueBlue24 on Feb 17, 2008 1:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I have no idea what you mean
We run the pure definition of a 3-4 until we go 4-down in nickel/dime situations.
by Dave Halprin on Feb 17, 2008 3:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
we don't run a "hybrid". Every single 3-4 defense has their LBs almost lined up next to the DEs only standing up. Also, the 3-4 defense fits Dallas very well, they have been in it for a few years now and have been drafting accordingly. Dallas has a great bunch of pass rushers and the great thing about the 3-4 is that you never know which one is going to rush along with the D-Line. We would have a flux at the LB and D-line positions if we changed to a 4-3. We have two NTs on the team, Furgs and Tank and then we would have Ware playing DE even though he has already proved to be a stud 3-4 outside backer. Bradie James would be playing in a stlye that would focus on his lack of speed as he would have to roam sideline to sideline. I think that the 4-3 is a great defensive style, The Great Landry himself created it, but with the players that Dallas has now the 3-4 fits them very nicely.
by Romo9 on Feb 17, 2008 6:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
this is what i mean
In a 3-4 defense, four linebackers (LBs) are positioned behind the defensive line. The linebacker unit is made up of two inside linebackers (ILBs) - more commonly known as middle linebackers (MLBs) - flanked by two outside linebackers (OLBs). The OLBs often line up closer to the line of scrimmage than the MLBs, but may also be positioned at the same depth or deeper in coverage than the MLBs (though this is somewhat rare).
Most teams try to disrupt the offense's passing attack by rushing four defenders. In a standard 4-3 alignment, these four rushers are usually the four down linemen. But in a 3-4, the fourth rusher is usually a linebacker
by TrueBlue24 on Feb 18, 2008 4:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess you're commenting
on the depth of our OLB's? I don't know where you got this description but it really doesn't accurately describe the 3-4. It seems hopelessly naive. Believe me, Wade Phillips runs a pure 3-4, he is in fact one of the guys who helped develop the defense for over 30 years. Where the linebackers line-up are not the key issue, the fact that they are upright without a hand on the ground is the defining characteristic. Hence 3 down and 4 up, we do not run a hybrid.
by Dave Halprin on Feb 18, 2008 4:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
OK...I guess you're right
Not trying to be an ass but my understanding has always been
linemen= players on the line(ends,tackles)
LineBACKERS=Players BACKING THE LINE
DB'S = corners and safeties
maybe its a tad simplistic...
Oh well i guess I don't know as much as I thought I did....
Wade Phillips runs a pure 3-4, he is in fact one of the guys who helped develop the defense for over 30 years
I do however know that the 1972 dolphins ran a 3-4 and the 1982 steelers were the first to run the 3-4 since the dolphins. sure it has been tweaked with zone blitzes and other schemes (1 gap,2 gap).
If you say its so grizz,i'll believe you.
I still say our personell is better suited for a 4-3 defense,being that ware,an aging ellis(who wore down at seasons end) and chris canty are our only legit pass rushers(or rather players who pressure the qb on a regular basis) But I know nobody will agree with that either....OH Well...
by TrueBlue24 on Feb 18, 2008 7:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry to prolong the conversation
and not to just prove you wrong, but your info is off. Consider that both Super Bowl teams in the 1980 season, Philly and Oakland both ran the 3-4 defense. Bum Phillips was running it in the 70's at San Diego and at Houston with his son Wade. I could use other examples but the point is it's been used on and off by teams in the NFL for a long time.
by Dave Halprin on Feb 18, 2008 7:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
OK
you win
I'll leave all the X's And O's to you guys
I'll go back to being a lurker
now that any credibility I had has been shot down....
gonna be a long time til september...
bummed...
<walks off ...tail between legs>
by TrueBlue24 on Feb 18, 2008 8:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Nooooo!
Don't be a lurker. We luv ya TrueBlue24...spout off anytime you want. It's all good!
by Dave Halprin on Feb 18, 2008 8:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
TrueBlue....If it means anything...
I totally understood what you had posted, and I'm in agreement with what you started out to inject to the discussion...
Stick around...Things are just stating to heat up...
This off season will be the most pivotal in many years...
by BoyzRback07 on Feb 18, 2008 9:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd be very pleased with his addition
If he came in on a low-paying one-year deal with no guarantee of a starting position. He's not a great fit here, though.
by BudLight on Feb 16, 2008 7:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Mickey Q & A on Zach
Bruce Budysz, Whitelaw, Wis.: I read a report that the Cowboys were interested in Zach Thomas. Why would they want an over-the-hill injured linebacker? That is not a need on this team. They need defensive backfield help.
Mickey: Yes they do, and in free agency you have priorities and you also shop for bargains. Might Thomas give the Cowboys a home-state discount? Who knows. And who knows how interested they are in the soon-to-be 35-year-old linebacker trying to return from head injuries. Sometimes you just go fishing, maybe looking for a guy who simply helps out on the nickel . . . if the price is right. And sometimes you bring a guy in for a visit as a favor to an agent. All I know is, the Cowboys are a lightning rod, and once they are linked to a free agent, interest seems to increase. A bunch of you keep saying Thomas can be the next Dat Nguyen. Well, Nguyen excelled here playing the 4-3 and got beat up physically trying to play inside on the 3-4, leading to his retirement. At his age, Thomas would have to be a niche player - if healthy.
http://www.dallascowboys.com/news.cf...
Exactly the same comment I made about a favor being called in. I really don't think we are serious about him. He doesn't have a chance at much playing time.
by Cowboys81 on Feb 18, 2008 10:04 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
NE offered Zach a contract
No surprise they like them old. Better him there than here.
Patriots | Team offers Z. Thomas contract
Mon, 18 Feb 2008Albert Breer, of The Dallas Morning News, reports the New England Patriots offered free-agent LB Zach Thomas (Dolphins) a contract Monday, Feb. 18, according to the NFL Network's Adam Schefter.
by Cowboys81 on Feb 18, 2008 10:18 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Kinda weird ....huh ?
How the model franchise, and best team in the NFL for this decade , that also plays a 3-4 Defense felt so strongly that Zack Thomas can perform, they immediately offered him a contract....hmmm...Maybe something they know, that very few fans here can understand...
Keep 'em coming guys....just 7 post to reach 100 .....wooo hooo..
by BoyzRback07 on Feb 19, 2008 7:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
thats because NE is desparate for LB help
Thomas looks like a young pup compared to the relics the Pats have at LB.
by Terry on Feb 19, 2008 10:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
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